Woman's Hour - Operation Identify Me, Iran, Rosie & Chris Ramsey, Race Across the World

Episode Date: May 11, 2023

Masih Alinejad, Iranian American journalist, women's rights campaigner and a Time Woman of the Year 2023, is an outspoken critic of the Iranian government. She joins Anita to talk about her fight for women's rights in Iran. The winners of Race Across The World on BBC1, where travellers made it to a destination, choosing any route they liked, but with no flights or phones allowed. For this third series, those involved travelled from West to East Canada. Cathie Rowe and Tricia Sail celebrate their triumph.For the first time, Interpol have released a list seeking information about 22 unidentified murdered women, whose names are a mystery. Anita is joined by BBC journalist Alice Cuddy to explain why this is happening, and forensic scientist Carina Van Leeuwen who is passionate about giving these women a name.Rosie and Chris Ramsey, top podcast couple, join Anita to talk about the perils of producing a podcast when you’re married with children and you’re airing your dirty laundry in public for laughs, and their remarkable success including a new BBC1 series, 'The Chris and Rosie Ramsey Show'.Presenter: Anita Rani Studio manager: Duncan Hannant

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to Woman's Hour. Chris and Rosie Ramsey, the new husband and wife power couple of Friday Night TV, will be joining me to tell me all about their hugely successful podcast, Shagged, Married, Annoyed, and them now landing this mega gig on our screens. But what we all really want to know about is how the two of them managed to work together and be married. I mean, this is a lot of time together and raises all sorts of questions about success and power, which I can't wait to get into

with them. But what about you? Are you someone who is or has worked with your partner? And how's that worked out for you? I want to hear about the best and worst experiences of working with your other half. And if you don't work with your partner, what's the giveaway signifier that you never could? Is it something as basic as arguing over how to load the dishwasher that tells you working together is a big no-no? How does the thought of your other half being part of your work life, trying to tell you what to do, make you feel? Or maybe it's your dream and you couldn't imagine having anyone else by your side. Send me those anecdotes about working with your partner.

You can text me on 84844. You can contact me on social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour. You can email me by going to our website. And of course, you can WhatsApp or voice note me on 03700 100 444. We'll also be finding out why police in three European countries are asking for help from the public to identify 22 murdered women whose names are a mystery.

It's part of Operation Identify Me, a campaign by Interpol, the international criminal police organisation. And did you watch Race Around the World last night? The winners of the epic journey across Canada will be on the programme. So if you haven't watched it yet, massive spoiler alert. Once again, that text number to get in touch with me about anything you hear on the programme today, 84844. We would love to hear your thoughts. But first, thousands of people took to the streets of Iran to protest

following the death of 22-year-old Masa Amini, who was detained last September for allegedly wearing her hijab improperly. Many women removed their headscarves in an act of defiance. Rights groups claim that more than 500 protesters have been killed, 20,000 arrested, and four people executed. Last month, the authorities began installing cameras in public places to identify unveiled women. The prominent Iranian journalist and activist Masa Al-Inajad, named in 2023 as Time Woman of the Year, has been a longtime critic of the Islamic Republic and its restrictions on women. Nearly 10 years ago, in exile in the USA,

where she started a social media campaign against the country's compulsory hijab law, encouraging women in Iran to record themselves without hijabs, which she then uploaded to social media. She's in the UK to talk to politicians and she's in the studio right now to talk to me. Masi, welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for hosting me. So you're here to talk to British politicians. Why? What do you want to say to them? Yes, I am here to meet with the member of parliament and I want to actually inform the UK government about the danger of IRGC,

the Revolutionary Guards of the Islamic Republic. And I want to actually warn the UK government about the threat that the Islamic Republic imposed not only on Iranian people. The Islamic Republic is a threat to democracy, to the UK as well. And I'm here actually to ask the UK government to support the revolution which is taking place in Iran, led by women, supported by men. Right now that I'm talking to you, 40 people got executed only in 10 days. And I want to ask the UK government, as a G7 country, as a G7 power, to take strong actions against a gender apartheid regime, which is called Islamic Republic. And to me, it's a virus which can infect the rest of the world.

And you've come here at extreme personal risk to yourself because the security that you have here in the building to protect you is more than Hillary Clinton's security when she came to Women's Hour. That's the reality of your life right now. I mean, it is shocking. Because as you see me, I'm a woman, 45 kilos, I don't carry any weapon. But it seems that I'm a threat for Islamic Republic. And they scared of women like me who can say no to this barbaric regime. Yeah, when I actually came to the UK, my plan was to participate in an event. And then after appearing on Piers Morgan's show, four metropolitan police came to my hotel and they said that because of the level of the threat, we are here to protect you.

And we have to know all your programs in advance. And I'm really thankful to the UK government actually providing this protection because it's going to allow me to show the true face of the Islamic Republic. But to be honest, it's shocking that they want to actually keep us silent miles away from Iran. That actually shows you that the Islamic Republic is not just the threat for the women of Iran. It's a threat for journalists outside Iran, for dissidents outside Iran as well. Are you afraid? Not at all. You can hear from my voice.

I don't have any fear for my life. But this is scary that you see the Islamic Republic can challenge the UK government on UK soil. You know, recently, actually, it's very, very, very scary that you see they were threatening the journalist who works for Iran International, one of the biggest TV broadcasting here in London. And the Revolutionary Guards actually hired a person to take photos and videos of the journalists here in their building. And the UK government actually advised them to stop working because of the level of the threats. And I was like, no, because I myself, I experienced to be cancelled just because of, you know, having threats around threats. And I was like, no, because I myself, I experienced to be cancelled just because of, you know, having threats around me. And I want to actually ask the UK government to protect journalists and do not cancel journalists and dissidents and women who say no,

cancel the terrorists. This is how we protect democracy, you know. Well, let's talk about everything that you're fighting for and your story as well. But I want to start when you started the campaign in 2014, as I said in the introduction, and you started it here in the UK, because you came here to study. How emotional was it for you to see women protesting in Iran? When I saw on the news Mahsa Amini was in coma just because of being bitten up by morality police, I was furious because for years and years, we the women of Iran have been warning the rest of the world about the danger of morality police. I mean, for your audiences, if they have no idea what morality police is, there are a bunch of officers, they're walking in the streets, and they're telling you cover yourself properly.

And if you don't, you get bitten up, you get lashes, you go to jail. So Mahsa got killed. And that created a huge anger. People took to the streets. And I was really, really heartbroken because, you know, for me, I didn't want Massa to get killed for the rest of the world

to understand what's going on in Iran. To be honest, it didn't need for Niko Shakar, I mean, only 16-year-old girl to get killed for the whole world to understand that the Islamic Republic is a gender apartheid regime and they count women like second class citizens and they, you know, kill you if you say no to them. It was painful. It was painful when you hear that more than 600 people got killed in that protest. 40 people are in the death row right now and men got executed for the crime of supporting

their sisters. But at the same time, it's very powerful. It is very powerful that you see women are leading this revolution fearlessly. And how is it now? How easy or difficult has it become to become defiant? I said in my intro that cameras have been installed and we did an item on Woman's Hour about poisonings in school. Yeah, schoolgirls being the target of chemical attack. I said in my intro that cameras have been installed. We did an item on Woman's Hour about poisonings in school. Yeah, school girls being the target of chemical attack. I mean, in 21st century, my sister, we're sitting here and we're talking about how a barbaric regime poisoning girls for the crime of removing their hijab, for a crime of just showing their hair. This should be condemned loudly. And to be honest, the level of the threat, the brutality of the regime is very, very intense, but women are not giving up. You know, I have to say that the police in Iran warned women,

they said that we're going to use the camera and we're going to arrest you, identify all those women who are unveiled. I mean, I'm very sorry, but women are showing middle fingers to the cameras in metros and everywhere. And this is, you know, the true face of feminist movement taking place in Iran, saying that this is our camera. They're filming themselves and they say that, where are your cameras? We are not scared of you. So what's happened now? What does it tell you about this generation?

This generation are, you know, changing not only the Iranian regime, they're going to change the rest of the world to understand that when a gender apartheid regime is in power, you have to be powerful. You have to dare to say no to them because this generation, you cannot stop them. Teenagers are like teenagers everywhere. But in Iran, they are challenging the clerics every single day. they're pushing boundaries. They're pushing, you know, back every single day and saying that we're going to end this regime for sure. I want to talk about where your power to do this came from, because I mentioned that your campaign started in 2014. But actually, it started much, much, much sooner, earlier than that, didn't it?

It started when you were a child. I mean, that's true. You know why? Because we don't have any other option in Iran. So when did you notice that there was... When you grow up as a girl, you have only one, I mean, you have two options, to be a victim or to be a warrior. This is how we, the women of Iran or Middle East, learn to fight back for every single right

that you take it for granted in the UK. As a little girl, I remember that I had no clue about feminism. I had no clue about equality, nothing. But I had a little brother in the village who was able to jump in the river. I had a little brother who was able to sing, to dance, to show his hair, to ride a bicycle, to go to a stadium. I was banned from doing all those activities just because of being a girl. So for that, I was envying my brother's freedom. So I started to, I mean, I have to say I started my revolution from my family's kitchen to bully my brother. And he was scared of the darkness during the night.

We had to use the outhouse in the backyard garden. So he was scared of the darkness, the night. We had to use the outhouse in the backyard garden. So he was scared of the darkness, but I was brave. Fearless. And I said to my brother, during the night, I'm going to take you to the outhouse. During the day, you have to teach me how to ride a bicycle. You have to take me to a stadium. You have to take me to the river. So this is how I made him as an ally to take my freedom back from, you know.

So your brother was a very young ally. That's why the government put him in prison recently to punish me. Miles away, I was watching like when they arrested my brother. What does that do to you when you hear that? You know, the government did everything, everything to make me feel miserable. First, they arrested women of my campaign who were sending videos to me, walking unveiled in the streets. The Iranian regime took them on TV and saying, like, you know, bad things about me. They even took my sister on TV. I was watching my sister 17 minutes denouncing me. So they put my brother in prison. They interrogated my mother. They were all, you know, not just your family, but watching young women be arrested for, you know, following what you are, the relative safety of the worst? I follow them. Yes. They're not following me.

But how does that make you, do you feel guilty? Why should I feel guilty? The government, the regime that lashes women should feel guilty. The government that executes people should feel guilty, not me giving them voice. Because look, these young generation are my heroes. And I remember that when Sabah Kordafshari was only 19 years old, she sent a video to me walking on veil and she got arrested. The government actually asked her to say death to Mahsi Alinejad, we're going to release you. She asked for camera and she said death to dictator. And Sabah's mother,

she was only 19 years old, she received 24 years prison sentence. I mean, of course, I felt guilty at that time. But immediately when Sabah's mother made a video and said that now I am the voice of my daughter. Yasaman was only 20 years old when she got arrested. Her mother made a video and said that now I am the voice of my daughter. Yasaman was only 20 years old when she got arrested. Her mother made a video and she said, I am the voice of my daughter. Pouya Bakhtiari got killed. Her mother, Nahid Shirpiche, made a video and said that I am the voice of my son. So these are like women of suffrages. These are my heroes. So I followed them and I gave voice to them without feeling guilty. I want to make the regime to feel guilty. What was your own relationship like with the hijab

when you were growing up? When did you choose to take it off? Oh, oh my God, it was it was early age. I had to wear hijab even in my house because my father was really conservative. And what I did, I started to say no to my father, because I believe that if I can say no to men around me who want to force me to follow their lifestyle, then I'm able to say no to dictators as well. So I started to say no to my father. And what was the reaction? When he stopped talking to me, I'm sure that he loves me. But this is the educational system trying to divide family members, trying to tell my father that your daughter is not a good person because she removed her hijab. I love him, but I don't love his path.

So I don't want to follow his path. I don't want to follow his path. I don't want to follow his ideas. And I'm sure that one day he's going to respect my fight against a gender apartheid regime. And what about your relationship with your mom? I love her. She is my role model. You know, the government wanted her to disown me when they went to my mother's house. It's okay, take your time. My mom said that I would set fire and I kill myself, but I don't disown my daughter on

TV. And that shows you the power of women, you know, and I love her and I miss her. I'm being away from her for 13 years. Difficult. It's not easy because, look, we're not criminals, but thousands of us Iranians living in exile just because the government don't want us to be free, and that's not fair. And we're here talking on Women's Hour,

and you're getting your message out there, but in the past you have been quite critical of Western women and Western feminism. Why? Because, you know, we, the women of Iran, are not fighting for ourselves. Women of Afghanistan are not fighting for themselves. We are trying to protect democracy from one of the most dangerous virus, which is called Islamic ideology, which is called Islamic states, ISIS, Taliban, Islamic Republic, they are all the same, and they are the real danger for feminism, for equality. So for that, I don't accept that high representative of the European Union, female politicians from UK, female politicians from western countries they go to

iran and they obey compulsory hijab laws in front of our oppressors that breaks my heart because i think this is a total betrayal and they say that we do it out of respect to your culture come on compulsory veiling it's not our culture this is an insult to a nation when you call this culture. This is the culture of Taliban and ISIS, Islamic Republic. And when women are brave enough in Iran, risking their lives, and they say no to mullahs, I want the Western female politicians to do the same. But Masih, you will still defend a woman's right

if she's choosing to wear one, to wear one. But my mom wears a hijab. My mom wears a hijab. My dream is to walk shoulder to shoulder with my mother who wears hijab but that doesn't mean that the female politicians the western um because they say the same narrative they say that you know we choose to wear it out of respect to muslim women sure but compulsory hijab is not the symbol of muslim women when women are forced to wear it, this is the symbol, most visible symbol of oppression, you know? I wonder, Masih, I'm conscious of the time and I know I could talk to you forever,

but I wonder what the end game is. What do they want from women? I mean, our body became like a platform for dictators and they want to write their own ideology on our bodies. And I told them that leave us alone. We, the women, are mature enough to make decisions for ourselves. You know, in The Handmaid's Tale, the book written by Margaret Atwood, there's a famous expression saying that if you don't want us to be an army against you, you shouldn't have put us in the same uniform. This is the situation in Iran right now. Women are removing their compulsory uniform, which is compulsory

veiling, to tell the government now we are an army against you. But our demand is beyond compulsory veiling. We want to end the gender apartheid regime. And I want to call all the women here. I see a lot of women around me, men as well. I need you as well. We need the men. I want you to understand that a regime doesn't allow women to go to school, doesn't allow women to go to stadium, doesn't allow women to make decision over their own body, has only one name, gender apartheid. And I want you to join us, women of Iran and Afghanistan, and call the leaders of democratic countries to expand the definition of apartheid, to include gender apartheid as well in all international laws. During the apartheid in South Africa, all the

leaders that you see in power in the UK and America, they were pro-banning South Africa. Right now, ban the Islamic Republic from everywhere. We should see them on international court because of the crime against women, children, men in Iran. Not, you know, negotiating with them. These are a terrorist regime. I was going to ask you where you got your strength from, but I think there's an unlimited pool inside you somewhere. I learned from my pain how to be powerful. Every single day when I wake up, I say to myself, is it worth? My life is upside down now. As you saw the

Metropolitan Police here. Imagine my life. I saw a man with loaded gun in front of my house. The Islamic Republic hired three Russian mafia to kill me on US soil. And I was like, okay, I have two options to feel miserable, or make my oppressors feel miserable. I choose the second one, because I have only one life. And I don't want to live in fear. And my heroes are the mothers for justice in Iran, whose children got killed, but they're not giving up their fight. So I follow their path and I learned from them how to be fearless and powerful. Marcia Linejar, thank you so much for coming to Amazigh to speak to me this morning. Thank you so much for hosting me.

84844 is the number to text if you'd like to get in touch with me about anything you're hearing on the programme this morning. Now, did you watch the final of Race Across the World last night on BBC One? Well, if you're yet to see the final, then a warning, there is a spoiler coming up. It's the programme where travellers have to make it to a destination, choosing any route they like, but no flights or phones are allowed. For its third series, those involved are travelling from west to east Canada. Not so easy as it's the second biggest country in the world. I'm delighted to say I'm joined now by one of the pairs of the only female team for the series. And they won. That's Cathy Rowe and Tricia Sale. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour, Cathy and Tricia.

Hello. Thank you so much for having us. Wonderful. Congratulations. Thank you very much. Yeah, 20 grand richer. Woohoo! Take me back to the moment when you realised you'd won. What did it feel like? Oh, it was incredible.

Quite surreal, disbelief, but also tinged with sadness that it had actually come to an end. You know, it was this incredible time, some of it indescribable, and then turning the book over and finding that we'd won. I don't think either of us had any words. I think we just kind of screamed and blubbed at each other for the next 10 minutes. You were on the programme a few weeks ago talking to Nuala. And just to remind, lots of people heard it. And you've got a massive fan base, particularly listening to this programme. And just to recap, you talked to Nuala about your sight loss, Tricia,

and you said you wanted to do these types of adventures while you still could. You were seen with a mobility cane at times during the journey. And there were some tasks you made sure you did as they suited your needs better how did you get through it um yes i did so i do have a white cane um and i use it because i obviously can't see um but i got through it with a little help from a friend or help from a little friend um but yeah you know you you know your limits or you you find your limits um but yeah I wanted to do it to prove to myself and to prove with other people that have got sight loss that you know you can still live you can still do all these things you know it's I hate to say it, but it is only your sight.

You know, it's never stopped me doing anything apart from driving. So, Cathy, how proud are you, Tricia? Oh, I'm hugely proud of her. She showed enormous strength and fantastic determination. And she didn't let anything hold her back. And she quite often jumped in with both feet and I had to reel her in a bit. But she was just incredible and I'm hugely, hugely proud of her

and to be her best friend. Now, you were on a, was it a 51 day journey together? That's just under two months. But on the programme, we never saw you argue is that because you never did or did they edit it in that way no we we didn't argue you didn't argue we did have a little bit of a gripe on leg seven but that's because we were both tired Kathy was missing a family I was missing home and we were both absolutely knackered um so we had a it wasn't a falling out it just literally was me jumping up a ladder and not

not realizing what I was doing um but uh yeah we didn't fall out at all not a crossword at all now that the secret's out what kind of reaction have you had I mean it was only last night it it's been incredible to be honest with you um I woke up this I'm in Thailand at the minute so um I'm having to do this from from what are you doing in Thailand and can't stop traveling oh I'm I'm traveling with my husband this time so he felt very left out so I thought oh I'd better do something with him so um so did you watch did you watch you didn't watch it obviously then you're for you're in Thailand yeah you woke up this morning we watched it this morning um so yeah it was the messages that we've had through this morning have been incredible I just checked our Instagram page

and we've jumped from about 600 followers to 1500 followers. So I know. And I mean, we're not, we're not used to this kind of media interest at all. So it's, it's mind blowing, actually. Why do you think that's happened? Well, I mean, obviously, it's the program is extremely popular. What do you think about why do you think that program resonates with so many people and has been so successful? I think it's all about, you know, it's great viewing, you know, it's family viewing. It goes through everybody's genres there. But I think it was just the fact that myself and Cathy got such a good friendship and such a good relationship. And, you know, we're not frightened of anything. And I think that's why people have, you know, got behind us. And it's so lovely of them.

It's just, yeah, we can't thank the public enough. It's just so lovely. So thank you. And you have been absolutely addictive viewing. But I watched it last week and it was something that really struck me and it was the sort of hitchhiking scene in the program last week the second to last episode and Laddie and Monique the father and daughter who were traveling together who were black found it very it was really difficult to watch actually because we got a reality of how

hard it was for them to get a lift and for them for anybody to actually speak to them and you know it was racism and we saw it happen and so I just wanted to ask you whether you recognized the advantage that you might have had as two middle-aged white women on this journey to be fair um we got huge amounts of knockbacks as well you know for every lift that we got we must have been knocked back about 20 30 times um so i don't think it was anything apart from the fact that you know they were knocked back um and same as us um i think we did have an advantage about the fact that we had a lot more life experience than the younger the younger teams um and the fact that we were two women um and we weren't um as as threatening as like uh two brought the two boys um but we also schmoozed a lot more we kind of went up to people and said oh you've got a lovely dog or oh my god your kids are lovely or whatever

it was so i think that was more of the advantage than anything else but yeah we had as many knockbacks as they did it just obviously wasn't shown as much what do you think I think that I think that's one one of the things I perhaps would disagree with Trish over and I I think we did have now it gets interesting we've got a disagreement no disagreements on tv but we've got one out of you. Go on, yeah, go on. This is fascinating stuff. I think we did have an advantage.

I think that two middle-aged women who are naturally very chatty and I hope friendly, I think we did have an advantage. And, yes, Trish is absolutely right that we did get knocked back um more times than we were successful uh but I do think that um we did have an advantage we had you're not threatening are you you're not threatening no anyway no exactly um we got we got picked up by a uh an older couple and the wife, Evie, lovely, lovely people. But they actually said to us, I don't know, Trish may not have heard this, but she actually said to us that they didn't pick up Michael and Mark because they were two young men.

They had, it was raining, they had their hoods up and they were stood there and they purposely didn't pick them up because they were worried about picking them up um and so I can completely understand well I can't understand Ladia Monique's um situation but I I do think that Trish and I did have an advantage when it came to getting lifts. Yeah, I think Cathy's right that we did have an advantage being two women. I don't think it made a difference what colour skin we had, to be fair. And, you know, like Cathy said, you know, we got as many knockbacks, but we did have that advantage, yeah. So what's next?

You're already on your travels again in Thailand. Are the two of you going to go on another adventure what's the plan oh definitely um i just felt that i i really needed to spend some time with my husband fair enough having left him to look after the business for a couple of months last year oh you run a business together yes yeah i was listening to your um your introduction to the show um and I thought I must tell Anita that I yes Gareth and I work together and have done for many years um and run a successful pharmacy business so uh it can be done see it can be done well how did he cope without you um he had a lot of support um But basically, my job was done primarily by our accountant. And I think poor Gareth was self-medicating with calms quite a lot. depending on the timings and stuff, to do a trek on the Great Wall of China. So, yeah. Brilliant. When we got back, we did actually,

myself, Cathy and Gareth, we walked the Inca Trail and did up Peru and on to Machu Picchu. So, yeah. And what would you say to any of our listeners who might be a similar age to the two of you who are thinking about going on an adventure with a best mate? Oh, definitely do it.

I know that applications have not long closed now for the next series of Race Across the World. But when they open up again, if you think it sounds like fun, it really is. Just go for it. Apply. It's just an incredible experience. Yeah, absolutely. It just opens the mind, broadens the horizons. and you have massive adventures like the two of you and the memories and the friendship and the bonding and all of it. Well, we have been huge supporters and it's wonderful that you won. Congratulations once again. Now go and spend all that money very unwisely. Oh, yes.

Yay! Thank you. Thank you. Cathy and Tricia, well done once again. Thank you. Lots of you getting in touch with me about a variety of things. One of them is how to work together or not to work together. My husband and I started a business, but it took two years for us to work well together.

I realised that the husband who couldn't work the washing machine was actually a very good manager who was empathetic and encouraging with our staff, who recognised my ability to multitask and that I was financially talented we're now retired and have been married for 57 years it can work and also he can now work the washing machine lots of you getting in touch about the interview that you heard with Massey I am rarely prompted to text but your interviewee from Iran is the most impressive, brave and passionate person I have heard. She is extraordinary. That's from Claire. And another one here saying perpetrators of barbaric treatment of women in Iran are cowards who fear the power of women's resistance. As a man, I feel rage on behalf of those women. And I want to tell them that most men are on their side and abhor the treatment that they're

subject to. I'm sitting here with tears listening to your guests' words. This is absolutely about human rights. Men and women are in it together. 84844 is the number to text. Now, police in three European countries are asking for help from the public to identify 22 murdered women whose names still remain a mystery. This is all part of Operation Identify Me, a campaign being led by Interpol, the international criminal police organisation, hoping to help finally identify the women by releasing so-called black notices with their details.

The BBC's Alice Cuddy has been looking into this story. Morning, Alice. Good morning. What can you tell us about these 22 women? Yeah, so I think we actually know a fair amount in terms of kind of superficial things about these women. So first of all, we know that they were found in Germany, Belgium and the Netherlands. We know in lots of cases what clothes they were wearing, what jewellery they were wearing. We know that the majority of them were aged between 15 and 30 years old. The bodies were found from the 1970s up to

2019. So it's covering quite a big period of time. And as I say, in some cases, we know lots of details about what size shoes they wore, what size dress they wore, the handbag they were carrying, but we don't know their names. This is quite a big deal, isn't it? Because a campaign like this has never been done before. So what's new or rather what's different about this? Why now? Yeah, that's it. I think probably the most kind of significant thing is that lots of us are probably familiar with Interpol's red notices, which are looking for wanted people around the world. But this time Interpol are releasing black notices. So these relate to unidentified bodies. Now, normally they're just circulated internally among Interpol's network of police forces around the world. But as part of this campaign, for the first time, they're releasing this list publicly

so that they're encouraging the public to look at the details about these women and think, is there somebody in your life that's missing? Do you recognise that item of clothing? Can you gain some resemblance from the sketch that's been drawn? Can you come forward? Can you offer some resemblance from the sketch that's been drawn? Can you come forward? Can you offer any DNA?

So basically, they're really asking the public for help. And why is it all women? Why are there no unidentified men? Yeah, so the campaign started in the Netherlands, and there are actually more unidentified men who male bodies but police there told us that the difference is that those men died in a in a big range of circumstances whereas the women there the vast majority of them were suspected murder cases um Interpol have also spoken a lot about how women um are at bigger risk of gender-based violence, including things like trafficking.

Alice, could you thank you so much for that? Also joining me is forensic detective Carina van Leeuwen, who's been working for Amsterdam's cold case team since 2005. Carina, welcome to Woman's Hour. Good morning from Amsterdam. Lovely to speak to you from Amsterdam, great city. What's prompted this collaboration with Interpol? Why now? Well, we tried everything during the last 10, 15 years,

maybe even longer. So we realized that a lot of women who were found in the Netherlands probably are not from the Netherlands. So we really wanted to reach out to the other countries and also to a very big audience to help us because just through the police connections, it didn't work. So we really, really wanted to reach out to a great deal of people who can help us to identify these women

because somewhere in the world, somebody must miss them. Why is finding the identity of these women so important? I think for three reasons it's very important. In the first place, for the women themselves, because if you don't have a name, you're just a number. You're buried in a nameless grave, so nobody can tell you a story. We can only tell the story of how they died, but not how their life was. So that's in the first place for me. In the second place, I think it's very important for those who are left behind, their families who sometimes are looking, waiting for 20, 25 years. They don't want to move because if she's coming home, she doesn't know where we live. And of course, in the third,

in the last place, if we don't know who the victim is, we can't find the perpetrator. So it's very important for those three reasons. Take us through the process that normally helps identify people. And why hasn't it worked this time? Well, partly it hasn't worked because a lot of these cases are old. They're from the 90s and even from the 70s. And of course, we didn't have all the forensic techniques that we have now. So when we find a body who is not identified easily in the obvious ways because they were a family close to them. So what we do, there are three important parts. That is dental,na and fingerprints but of course

if we have that then you put it in the database but then there has to be somebody else who's putting the other part in so from the missing person and if that doesn't happen then of course we try all the other things that's possible by if it's possible to have a photograph of the victim, we can show it. We can show their clothes, their jewelry, or if they have a tattoo or something like that. And of course, all that information we put on the Black Notice and we send it to all the other countries. But like Alice said, it's just it can only be watched by police people, it's just too small amount of people who can look at it

so the more time it takes to identify somebody, the harder it gets but I'm sure that even after 20 or 25 years they're still missed somewhere in the world, so we're trying to be their voice And now because you're hoping because of the improvements in technology and DNA techniques still missed somewhere in the world somebody so we're trying to be their voice and and now um

because and you're hoping because of the improvements in technology and dna techniques that you might be able to close some of these cold cases right yeah our first goal is to to identify them to bring them back to their families and if it's possible we really want to try to solve the murder as well but that's not our first goal at this moment. And I understand you think one of the women could be English. Yeah, I really would like to ask everybody in England to watch on the website of Interpol. There's a woman in Amsterdam. She was found in a little boat.

She was killed by a fire um but there's on the dutch side there's a good photo of her because she she does look good uh even after she died but we couldn't place the picture on the interval side because it's not allowed but we really think that she might be from england because she lived for a while in the netherlands but she spoke only english her name she said her name was karen mckenzie she had a but when she died we found out that her passport was uh how do you call that a fraud or yeah is that the right word in english yes um yeah fake so her a fake yeah um it was a stolen uh passport uh which you know was was manipulated uh so it looked like it was her passport and we never found out who her what her real name was and she was found in the 90s so it's getting more and more difficult so what should i listen so what should our listeners do

next then some of them might be you know gripped to this and wonder yeah well i really would like to ask them to look on on the website of interpol to check all the pictures of the of the women and from this woman uh she was i i'm not sure which one it is on the list of the of interpol but you can find that she was found in a boat in amsterdam and please um connect through to the to the dutch police page you can click through that and look at her picture maybe you know her somebody has to know her somebody has to you know know her from her youth maybe they went to school together because the story was that she was born in Bombay with an English father and a German mother but we we. But we never got really sure about that.

And how do we know this story? How do we know this much information about her? Well, she was having a boyfriend in the Netherlands and he knew her by her name, Karen, and he knew that she was speaking English. And this was her story to him. And like you've mentioned a few times, and it's the one thing that i keep coming

back to particularly when i was doing all my research about this i just keep wondering about the poor families who've never found any answers after all these years it's it's really horrific if you uh hear the stories of in those people that we identified and we could bring them back to their families and you hear their stories it's really heartbreaking. Even after 25 or 30 years, it doesn't matter how long it takes. I think to be missed is worse than to be dead because then at least they know what's happened. Karina, thank you so much for speaking to me.

That's Karina van Leeuwen. And if you want to have a look at the information there is about the unidentified women, you can head to www.interpol.com forward slash im or just search for operation identify me lots of you getting in touch about working with your partners someone said here my husband and i have been together for 26 years and we've worked together for 24 as air cabin airline cabin crew we had a three-hour journey to work, worked on the same flights and travelled the world together.

It was like having your best friend on a trip. You didn't feel alone and away from your friends and family. The only downside to spending so much time together was when you jet-lagged and doing a night flight home and no sleep. You can't be grumpy with each other, as the other passengers are always watching. I've got two people nodding away in the studio, looking radiant and smiley and happy, just as I'd expect are always watching. I've got two people nodding away in the studio, looking radiant and smiley and happy,

just as I'd expect them to be. It's a couple who make a very famous podcast, Shagged, Married, Annoyed. I love that you allowed me to say that on Woman's Hour. Thank you for that. Consistently tops the podcast charts. Its creators, married couple Rosie and Chris Ramsey from South Shields have won Best Comedy Podcast

at the National Comedy Awards two years running. They've had a best selling spinoff book and their TV series, The Chris and Rosie Ramsey Show can be seen on BBC One tomorrow night. What's the secret to their comedy and their relationship? We're going to find out all the answers right now because they're sitting here. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Hello. Thank you so much for having us. Massive congratulations. Friday night uh bbc one you've hit the big time you started chris as a comedian back in 2007 rosie you're a presenter on capital northeast very much hit the big time

is this what it was all been working towards uh unintentionally yes but yeah yeah i mean i would i would counter that with absolutely not, but we're happy to be here. We said recently, didn't we, if we'd sat down and said, this is our plan, people would have thought we're, you know, people would have thought we're egotistical maniacs. It's always been a dream,

but the fact that we actually live in it is very, very nice. Well, you've worked towards it, haven't you? You've worked very hard towards it. I mean, couples making podcasts, bit of a thing right now. Do you see yourselves as the OGs? I think maybe in the podcast world, yes, but there was definitely couples doing stuff together

before us. Richard and Judy, Ruth and Eamon, the classics. But in podcasting, maybe, yeah. If you're saying it, we'll take it. Yeah, I'm going to give you the title. It's going to be on a poster. I know, and it'll come back to me. People will be like, hang on a minute.

And then next week when I've got someone else on, I'll say it. So how did it start? Who came up with the name and who said, right, maybe we should do this together? It was my idea. Of course it was. Chris has never done anything in radio, and I came from radio, and I was just like,

we should try podcasts. You were really against the idea at first. Yeah. And we just kind of said, why? So, we came sort of into people's minds as a couple when I was doing Facebook Lives

for a TV show that I had for Comedy Central. So I was doing Facebook lives for my TV show that I had for Comedy Central so I was doing Facebook lives and Rosie was sitting off camera essentially heckling

I'm talking like You used to do them quite late at night Yeah well I had to do them like quarter to ten before the show was on Was this before the kids? No

We had one You had one We had one I think he was about two Yeah you'd be heckling away and people were like commenting going your wife's so funny, she's hilarious.

So then by the third or fourth episode, she was on the Facebook Lives with me. And then you said, do a podcast. And it seemed weird to go, oh, they love the video of us, so let's do a thing without a video. But, you know, I constantly apologise for it and I eat humble pie on a daily basis because she was 100% right and I was so, so wrong.

It takes a lot of work to put a podcast together as someone who works in the industry. And how much prep do you put in behind the scenes? So I do all the prep. Chris very much just rocks up. She came up with the idea.

I know. What do you mean? I feel like I'm being Paxman here. Yeah, Rosie, you're on Woman's Hour. Talk to me. Get it all off your chest. Don't even worry about it. Do you know what it is? We talk about the power balance a lot.

Oh, right. This is what we want to get into. So she does all the work. I do all the prep. Of course she does. She's brilliant. Not that I'm controlling. I just feel like he's the comedian and I like to know

and he reacts better without knowing the stuff. So I like to get all the prep and I know what's going to make him laugh. And I don't know whether it's a bit of a control thing that I just think I like to know what's going on. And you're not very good with the, and actually neither am I. We're both pretty terrible with emails and things like that.

Our brains don't really work like that. But I know that you wouldn't get it done. She does it herself because she wants it done right. Yeah. That's the best way we can describe it. I usually spend the day before kind of prepping it, getting everything sorted, and then on the day of the record.

It is pretty off the cuff. A lot of this stuff, we don't overthink it. We don't overplan it. It's very much just a chat. It's not how we work. We couldn't script it it'd be impossible and you'd hear it as well it doesn't sound scripted

at all we don't know what each other's beef is with each other and I've got no idea of the tell people about the beef oh so the beef so we decided

that each week we would just have a go at each other so it was like right what's your beef why am I upsetting you why are you upsetting me and it's like

free marriage counselling it's great but how many many episodes we've done now two we're in the 200s and 17 or something we have we've had a beef every single week every week i've got a backlog in my phone and what's your beef today what's happened this morning what was our beef this morning my well i i have a long running beef with you is that i am why are you never ready on time yeah this is well this is a bit of a sort of shift because usually it's the woman who's you're waiting it's like old school man waiting for a woman you are never ready why are you never ready Chris listen I honestly I feel like I'm

I feel I feel attacked in this show no no you're in a safe space just tell us why you're never ready I thought I was coming on woman's hour to grill him I thought I was gonna get a set outside I didn't know I didn't think I'd have to come in here. I'm terrified. I'm shaking. Can you hear my voice? Do you know what? I just don't know, but you are. It's frightening how much you have to wait for...

You hang around while I start getting ready. So I'll get ready at seven o'clock and you'll wait till half past seven to start getting ready. But actually not realising it takes you the same amount of time to get ready as it does me. I feel like I can get ready quicker

so I let her get a massive... You're never ready enough. It's classic tortoise and the hare. Is there anything off limits that you won't talk about? Yes. A couple of things. The thing with us is

our off limits section is much smaller than most people's off limits section. Do you know what I mean? But there's genuinely not much actually. We've had arguments in the past that have been really big, sort of serious arguments. But you leave it a couple of weeks

and actually you can have a laugh about them because you look back and you go, oh, that was ridiculous. The way I reacted to that was ridiculous. And that's kind of what we do. Tragedy plus time equals comedy. Yeah, that is so true. That's why he's the funny one.

Yeah, I know. No, I'm not the funny one. I am not the funny one. Rosie has proved that. You know what I love about the podcast and I love about the TV show and everything the whole world now gets to see how funny Rosie is she's not a comedian's

wife she is you are well and truly a comedian in your own timing you're whip smart you know just well it's the combo of the two of you but yeah Rosie you are absolutely a star and it's not just me saying that because Helen Stewart from the Sunday Times said she's the star and he's smart enough to know it oh I've never I've never did you not hear that no I didn't see that the quarter rolling in today

this poster is there any professional jealousy no no no there was a slight but we fixed that what was it the only thing I was ever envious of, jealous of, was when Chris did Strictly. Yeah. Because I used to do a little bit of dancing in the past and that was the only one where, and I was like, oh gosh, it's such a cool show, it's so good.

But then I did the Christmas special. Yeah, and you were amazing. Yeah, and I loved it. You were amazing. Thank you. I knew Rosie was this great. So week two of Strictly, I did Charleston, right? Yes, me too. Week two was Charleston. Yes, me too.

Week two was Charleston. Oh, of course. So Karen, who was my pro, spent almost a full day trying to teach us the swivel. Couldn't do it. They got extra pros up from London. Like, get them in. He can't do it.

They all came up. Two days teaching us the swivel. I learned it in two days. I was dead happy with myself. I went home. No word of a lie. Rosie was in the kitchen. I went, oh, I've learned the Charleston. I went, look, it's a swivel. I'll show two days I was dead happy with myself I went home no word of a lie Rosie was in the kitchen I went oh I've learnt the Charleston

I went look it's a swivel I'll show you and out of nowhere she went oh is it this and she did it in front of us I was furious like she just knocked

a Charleston swivel out of nowhere it was horrible it was soul destroying I feel like Rosie you're the sort of person that you could put on stage and do a big musical number

and you would just nail it is that your dream? that's yeah is that what did you grow up wanting yeah so i started out as a blue coat a ponton's blue coat many many years ago and i've just i've sang and danced all around the country like clubs holiday parks all of all that kind of thing and that's very much my passion i'd look west ends my dream yeah one day when the kids are a bit older. You said when you were younger you wanted to be the main female role in the West End, but now what do you want to be? I want to be

the mam, because I know it'll be when I'm older. So I used to want to be Ebeneen and now I'll be Fontaine. It could happen. You never know. How did you meet? What was the chat up line? Well, we met we met when we were 14

because we were from the same place South Shield and we met and then we went to college together and then 10 years later we were in an A club

we never got together we never got together we just knew each other but we've always known each other because everyone knows everyone in South Shield

yeah basically I sat next to our boyfriend in college in maths I sat next to our boyfriend I used to copy off him

in maths and yeah I still can't boyfriend. I used to copy off him in maths. And yeah, then we got... I still can't believe you did maths at college. I won. I only did an AS level and I got an E. And it's still pretty good. Oh, it was so hard. Matrix is another...

I had to reset my maths GCSEs at college. Yeah, that was it. I was doing A level maths with her boyfriend and she was in another block resetting her GCSEs. It's the only reason they let me in. They were like, you can come in, but you've got to reset that. But we'd walk past each other wouldn't we?

We saw each other all the time and I always had a little sort of soft spot for her. I always remember thinking, oh, she's, yeah, I like her. And then, yeah. Chris, you won out

and it's a long game. It's the long game. But I had to wait until I was a marginally famous local comedian until I actually had any pull. You weren't that famous then. Exactly.

I was a marginally famous local we've had a we've had a message in from someone saying i worked with my husband running a company together for the last five years we both understood it was a risk and could impact our marriage it was a challenge at first being the md my husband sometimes forgot his role as md didn't transfer at home but we work well together and i'd say it's been a success but it is a risk you are putting yourselves out there and you're you're obviously madly in love you've been together since you were so young but now here you are and actually the success of your work life depends on the two of you it does success and we we talk about it a lot yeah and we're very aware we've always said

that our marriage comes before anything and it really does. What does that mean? It comes before everything. If we ever got to a point, like honestly, cards on the table, if we ever got to a point

where it was affecting our marriage negatively, we wouldn't do it anymore. Everything goes before the marriage. The kids and the marriage are first. We've got two little kids.

TV show goes, podcast goes, everything else goes before the marriage. The marriage is the one that stays. But touch wood, so far, so good. It's actually, I think it's actually been good for our marriage. Rosie has implemented some incredible rules.

Come on. How has it been good and what are the rules? Yeah. Well, it's been good for, will you tell how it's been good for the marriage? I think it's been good because we both love our jobs and it's been successful so far. And I think the positive, we've done, we've got a world record together. It's like really cool stuff that you don't experience and you get to experience it with your husband.

It's really cool. We're now and then, we're never really, all in comedy and stand-up and all throughout my career, I've never really stopped and admired the view. Does that make sense? But we have to have little moments now because there's two, we're sitting, we'll like chink a little wine glass together in a nice hotel

and we'll go, hey, do you know, it's stressful, but this is nice and we'll have nice times together. It is. But Rosie's implemented some incredible rules

where if we're sitting, the kids have got, we'll say six in the morning and we're sitting and we've got Despicable Me 3 on for the fourth time this week and I'll sit on my phone and I'll look up

and I'll go, they've emailed about and she'll go no no nine o'clock at nine o'clock when the kids are when race get looked after

and when Robin's at school nine o'clock when we're showered and we're in the studio the home studio we'll talk about what emails and work then don't do it now

nine till five and after five o'clock if I get an email and I read it she goes no tomorrow morning that's very good and she cracks the whip

with it and it's genius also in that sentence I heard home studio. Yes. They've done good. Lower your expectations right now. I mean, the two kids from South Shields have done good. Still in South Shields. I know, but with a home studio.

Well, that's because it's in the north. Yeah, we wouldn't have it here. Yeah, we wouldn't have a north studio in London, I'll tell you that right now. It is absolutely so impressive just how well you've done. Are you competitive with each other? I don't think we are. Not in a larger sense.

We're small, daft things, but could be. And how do you keep your egos in check? Our friends and family do that for us. Yeah. And we do it for each other, I think. I mean, you do it for me. Yeah. It actually sometimes kills me talking

about us so much. I find it quite difficult. Well, we've thoroughly enjoyed talking about the two of you on Woman's Hour. It's been such a pleasure speaking to you. I want to wish you all the best for the programme and congratulations. Keep doing it. to wish you all the best for the programme. And congratulations. Keep doing it.

We love you. Thank you. Thank you for having us. Absolutely my pleasure speaking to both of you, Chris and Rosie Ramsey there. Join me tomorrow. Maureen Lipman's going to be on the programme. That's all for today's Woman's Hour.

Join us again next time. What could be more modern than a net zero travel show? A show about going places that never goes anywhere. Welcome then to Your Place or Mine on BBC Radio 4. I'm Sean Keaveney and I love travelling almost as much as I love staying at home and watching music documentaries. I figure Massachusetts, you know, for somebody like you who doesn't particularly enjoy broadening their horizons, it would be sort of a baby step because Massachusetts is kind of the heart of New England.

So, you know, it wouldn't be too shocking for you. Each week, another fantastic and intrepid guest attempts to lull me out of my postcode with persuasion alone. Eat the insects too. I mean, that's what they do a lot in Oaxaca. They normally roast them and then you can scatter them on your guacamole. There's something deliciously kind of earthy

and umami about insects. Anybody who's been on the back of my uncle Paul's motorbike has eaten a lot of insects, you know, because he goes very fast. Your place or mine. With me, Sean Keaveney. Listen and subscribe on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year,

I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.