Woman's Hour - Oti Mabuse, Domestic Abuse and Kinship Care, Quarry Bank Cotton Mill, Samantha Evans, Fire fighter.

Episode Date: December 23, 2020

Oti Mabuse and partner Bill Bailey have been crowned Strictly Come Dancing champions as they took the 2020 glitter ball trophy home on Saturday. Oti Mabuse is the first professional to win the competition two years in a row. Next year, she is going on tour with her new show ‘I AM HERE', which explores her journey from growing up in South Africa, to becoming a multi-award winning dancer.The increase in domestic abuse during the pandemic has been widely reported. The charity Family Rights Group works to keep children safe in their families and advise parents whose children are in need, at risk or in care, and support kinship carers raising children. Their chief executive, Cathy Ashley, confirms that rise and says that domestic abuse is now the most common reason given by callers to their free advice line as to why social workers have become involved with their family. She also explains why grandparents so frequently become kinship carers in these situations.Quarry Bank cotton mill stands on the outskirts of Manchester, it is now a National Trust property . It features in a play called The Whip by Juliet Gilkes Romero a new audio version of which is now available on the Royal Shakespeare Company’s YouTube channel. The play tells the story of the cover-up of the death of a child working at the mill. Louise Adamson went to Quarry Bank back in 2017 to see an exhibition about the lives of the women and children who worked there and the songs they sang as the worked.Samantha Evans is West Sussex Fire & Rescue Service’s first female whole time firefighter. When Samantha joined the service in 1990, there were no female shower facilities on station, and no other women in the team. Samantha is now retiring, after 30 years of service.Presented by Jessica Creighton Producer: Louise Corley Editor: Beverley Purcell

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger.

Listen wherever you get your podcasts. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. I know you just want to hear your show, but this won't take long. I'm Miles, the producer of Radio 4's Tricky Podcast. And it works like this. Four people from across the UK meet up and without a presenter breathing down their necks, talk about issues they really care about. Because sex work is quite complicated for a lot of people and it's

okay to be against it but not to you know shame someone because of their profession. Across the series we'll hear anger, shock and even the odd laugh. Another thing that really gets to me is when people say I know what we need to do. I know what black people... Shut up. You don't, like, that's the thing. That's not how it works. Nobody knows. If you knew, you would have done it. Discover more conversations like this by searching Tricky on BBC Sounds. Hello, I'm Jessica Crichton.

Welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast on Wednesday, the 23rd of December. Good morning. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Coming up on the programme this morning, I'll be speaking to a firefighter who, when she first entered the industry, there were no female showering facilities. She's now retiring after 30 years service and can tell us about how the industry has evolved. Also, Quarry Bank Cotton Mill on the outskirts of Manchester is featured in a play called The Whip, which tells the story of a cover-up of the death of a child working there. We visited the mill back in 2017 and will bring you the stories of the women and children who worked there and the songs they sang. And the rise in domestic violence during the pandemic has

raised a lot of concern. For one charity, the Family Rights Group, it has become the most cited reason for social workers stepping in to assist families. I'll be speaking to their chief executive. But first, can we talk about Strictly Come Dancing? The champions, Oti Mabuse and Bill Bailey, have given us sparkle, shine and star quality over the past few months. And my goodness, was it needed.

So I'm so happy that I get to thank Oti personally, because she joins us this morning. A very good morning to you, Oti. Welcome to the programme. Good morning. Thank you for having me. An absolute pleasure. Firstly, thank you, Oti.

You and Bill had the nation captivated. It was such a fabulous night on the final. And of course, you were the first professional dancer to win it two years in a row. Has it all sunk in yet? No, not really. Because yesterday, Bill and I had like a two hour phone call. And we literally just went through the whole week and the ups and downs that we had faced, the conversations that we had had,

all the little moments that we had that led to that one moment where Tess announced our name. And we couldn't believe it, you know? And I think I could hear it from Bill on, like, the Wednesday, Thursday, when he's like, we don't stand a chance. You know, for me, it's so difficult. I don't see how this is possible. And fast forward to Saturday where he is the winner

of Strictly Come Dancing on 2020. It's just beautiful. And we had a cry again. We cried again. And it was like a phone call full of, oh, thank you, thank you. I adore you. You're an inspiration. We made history.

We did it. It was beautiful. Oh, I can hear in your voice just how much it meant. Let's just relive that moment of joy when you were announced as winners. The votes have been counted and independently verified, and I can now reveal the Strictly Come Dancing Champions 2020 are... ..Bill and OJ!

Oh! How does that feel, Bill? Talk to us. It feels surreal, it feels extraordinary, it feels wonderful. I never thought that we would get this far. I never thought we'd get to the final. But I have the most extraordinary teacher, the most extraordinary dancer... CHEERING

How are you doing, guys? CHEERING the most extraordinary dancer someone who has who believed in me right from the beginning and she found something in me turned me into this into a dancer thank you Oti wow Oti

high praise from your dance partner Bill Bailey there and what a journey you guys went on because it seemed like you started the competition as a novelty act and even bill said i never expected to get this far did you yes um no not really i think because last season i had done really well with uh cal Calvin and that ended very well. I assume that this year, because usually what happens and what has happened for the last 17 years is that if you do win, you come back as the reigning champion and you only make it up until week three or week four. And so I was like, oh, okay, so I guess this is my turn then.

And I guess it was my husband who actually really changed my mentality and said to me, you are good, you are good enough. And if you really, really, really are that good, it shouldn't matter what happened last year. This is a whole new year and you need to show how good you are and really prove how good you are because you're constantly telling the whole country that you believe anybody can dance now it's your chance to prove really that anybody no matter what age what background what you look like anyone can dance and that's really my thought i think that's really what captured the nation's

hearts it's just this idea that it doesn't matter about your ability necessarily, as long as you're enjoying what you're doing and doing it with a smile on your face, you can achieve something quite magical. Yes. And the thing about Bill, which is really incredible, is that as a human being, I think the nation knows Bill as a chameleon, but they know him also as a very curious man. They know that he's very interested in animals. He cares for animals. He's very inquisitive.

And the same thing applied when he was dancing. He was always asking questions. He was always going above and beyond. And that is a trait that I learned from him. So whenever we had a dance and we knew what dance we would possibly have the next week, he would go and do the history of why the dance formed, who were the role players, the key players in the dance, how did it come to England, how did it become a competitive sport.

And that inspired me. So if ever we had a theme, I would watch, like, for week two, we had, what was it, Dr. Doolittle. And so I went back and watched all the Dr. Doolittle that were made just to gain reference and to be a little bit familiar with the dance, the way we were supposed to have our mannerisms, the look of it. And so that idea of just going above and beyond, not only working from eight in the morning until 10 at night rehearsing, but also just really igniting the mind and the intelligence so that you can have a backstory on whatever you were doing. So he was, this is what I consider passion. And I think he was tremendously passionate about this and everything that he does. And I hope that's what came through. Well, you mentioned there that Bill inspired you. And, you know, he said the same thing about you. And I think people really tapped into the way that you two bonded,

particularly at a time in 2020 that's been so tough for so many people. Were you aware of how important the competition had become to people? How joyful it had become? Well, when we started seeing everybody leave, like literally when the contestants started getting less and less, I started to tell Bill that now the competition is beyond us.

Now we're not just doing it for us. We're doing it for people at home who need this. Because he would get loads of messages from people who were saying, I work for the NHS and it's really tough, but you've given me a little bit of light and something to look forward to. So I told him, I was like, this is just proof of what you mean to a lot of people. And what you have to do is do your best.

And imagine that world. Imagine how crazy that world is, that you doing your best on a dancing show inspires somebody else to go have a good day at work. And that's something that we can't take for granted. You really have to take that moment in and appreciate it for what it is. The fact that coming out here and dancing and doing something that you're not

comfortable with is making somebody else happy is something that you want to do to the fullest potential. And so every week when we started to, I think it was like week four, week five, I said to him, we need to come from a place of joy and gratitude when we're dancing. That is the only thing i want you to feel and the only thing i want you to admit when you're dancing is how grateful you are to be here how grateful you are to have people vote for you and how grateful we are to have actually

been able to do the show and certainly did that now let's talk about your up and coming tour called I Am Here. It's a celebration of your influences and inspirations on growing up in South Africa to, of course, following your dancing dreams. So what can people expect to see? Well, I am going to push myself at this. I think this is my first project ever that I get to do on my own. I'm choreographing it as well and I'm creative directing it as well, along with the team. And so, to me, the show is really not just about me, but also paying homage to dance as a whole,

to say thank you to all the women that have been in my life, because I don't know if people know this, but Strictly is a majority women-run show. Our executive producers, our line producers, our presenters, the panel, the cast. So there are a lot of women that have actually got me to where I am. And I think this tour is to say thank you to them. And I know people see the double titles, but they never get to see the people in the background

that are wiping your tears when you're sad, or the people who come up with the songs on Strictly and the concepts. And those are really strong women. And I think this is another tour that not only is it going to be entertaining, but a thank you for everything to the women in my life. Now, we've spoken a lot about inspiration in this conversation, Oti. And of course, Bill Bailey was the oldest dancer to ever win strictly.

And he says he hopes more dads will take up dancing or at least get fit as a result of seeing him on TV. Dance schools have said they're expecting to see a rise in older men joining classes in the new year. I suppose that's the power of representation. That is why representation matters in all aspects of life. I think Bill was really open about the fact that older men sometimes are a little bit embarrassed to admit that they can't dance or they can't dance.

And I know from coming from a Latin and ball background that all the gentlemen love to do ballroom you know but they would never ever have the courage to get up and say i'm going to do a class or the salsa by myself and partly why he said that was because i i just opened my down school now and he was like once i'm done with strictly and all the restrictions are done i'm definitely going to come to the school because he loved it. He fell in love with it. He fell in love with the community of dads that we have. We have family classes that we offer. So this whole family can come and do a dance class together.

And we have daddy and daughter classes. So he feels like he had a responsibility just to encourage people, one, to be healthy, but also to come out of their comfort zones and start something new. Oti, it's been incredible to talk to you this morning. And I really hope now that you are able to get some much-deserved rest. That's not going to happen. We all know that's not going to happen. Every single person who knows me knows that it's definitely not going to happen.

I'm trying, but it's not going to happen. I'm trying, but it's not going to happen. Please do try. Oti Mabuse, thank you very much for being on the programme. And Oti's tour, I Am Here, starts on the 16th of April next year. Now, there is a lot of concern about the rising levels of domestic abuse during the pandemic. Even today, newspapers are reporting that Christmas will further worsen the situation. The Family Rights Group is a charity that assists families, and their chief executive, Cathy Ashley, joins me now. Good morning to you, Cathy. Good morning. Just give us an overview of what the Family Rights Group does.

We work to enable children to live safely within their family where that's possible and strengthen family support networks for children in care. We advise and work with parents whose children are in need or at risk or are in the care system or being adopted. And we also support wider family and friends, often known as kinship carers, who are raising children who are unable to remain at home. Now, in the difficult situation where children are removed from their parents, you also support extended family who you mentioned, their kinship carers, including grandparents.

And I just imagine that can become quite complicated, not just practically, but emotionally as well. It can be very complicated seeing your own sister or daughter in an abusive relationship, fearing about her emotionally and physically. And especially if you know you've taken her children, yes, in order to protect them and prevent them uh being taken into care or adopted but that may not be how she sees it um children's services may have uh said that you've got to prove uh that you're putting the children first by distancing yourself from uh the parents and that can feel heartbreaking so incredibly complicated yes and incredibly emotional i just want to draw our listeners attention to to a letter that we're about to hear is written by a grandmother who is raising her grandchildren due in part to domestic violence

she is a member of family rights groups kinship carers panel and was inspired to write this letter to shed light on how domestic abuse has affected so many families. The author is anonymous to protect her grandchildren, so it is read by another kinship carer. To my daughter, I remember when you had inspirations, when your laughter lit up a room, and most of all, how you live with no worries or fear of the world and what it had in store for you. You wanted to be a teacher, telling us about the latest college courses you were applying for, your wide circle of friends, so happy, so carefree. Eventually we heard less and less from you. We phoned, invited

you around for tea, you declined. We thought you were busy. We thought we were old and you had your life to lead. You told us less and less about your plans. We now know that bright, bubbly young woman was slipping away. The day you turned up bursting through the door, a bin bag full of clothes in hand and out of breath is one I just can't get out of my mind. I remember your words. I've had enough. I just ran. I told you to calm down, but with your adrenaline going, you were physically shaking. A panicked conversation took place. Are you okay? What's happened? Where are the kids? You'd made sure that they were safe. You showed me your bruises and the marks he had made. The scratches and handprints on your neck where he had gripped you. The bruises on your back and legs where he'd kicked you when you were on the

floor. None on your face. I suppose he thought he was being smart. You passed it off with comments like he was just angry or you can't pick who you fall in love with. I told you to call the police. That's when I saw the fear in your face. You told me that I didn't know what he was like. You told me I didn't know what he was capable of. This was the start of lots of phone calls and lengthy conversations. After each outburst, he demanded sex. That's why you ran. I told you that was rape. And again you made excuses for him, saying you didn't fight back, you didn't say no, you just lay there. I'm sorry sweetheart, but you were raped. Then your phone started pinging with apologies and more excuses of how it would never happen again.

It was like you had a cloud around your head and everything I said wasn't going in. You only heard him. We promised that we wouldn't report it without your say-so. We needed your trust and you said you would lie and never speak to us again. We needed that contact. We needed to know you were safe. The only thing that you allowed us to do was to take pictures of your bruises just in case you ever wanted to report it in the future. Tears in my eye as you showed me one after the other. You were adamant that you would never report him as it was too dangerous and that you would leave him of your own accord.

I feared he would never let this happen. You stopped the night. I remember not sleeping with the thoughts running through my mind of what you had been through. I knew you hadn't told me the full story and my imagination ran wild. I kept wondering if I had done the right thing by not reporting it that day. Would you have forgiven me if I did it anyway? Or would you have run back to him and never come back for help? You went back and told me he had changed but I wasn't convinced. It wasn't until months later that you asked for help again. You wanted to report him. In that moment I couldn't have been prouder. I rang the police before you could change your mind and they arranged for someone to come around later in the week to take a statement. During that time you

were being bombarded with text messages and calls, first with apologies then with threats. You were so strong not to reply, not to get sucked in again. On the day the police were due to arrive I reassured you that I'd be there to hold your hand. You were so scared that no one would believe you and that he would follow through with his threats. Before the police could arrive you saw him on the drive and hid in pure fear, frozen. I dragged you upstairs and locked us both in the bathroom whilst dialing 999. As he tried to break in, this overwhelming sense of protectiveness came over me. There was no way I was going to let him harm you anymore. He'd have to get through me before anything happened to you.

Luckily, the police turned up, but it was the longest nine minutes of my life. I remember how scared you were. Even now, he was on remand. I made a promise that I would be with you every step of the way. I was scared that you might give up and not see it through, but you did. You bravely gave evidence and he was sentenced to five and a half years in prison. I was so proud of the strength you showed throughout. The sentence was bittersweet. The damage had been done. You are not the same

person anymore. You lost your home, your children and your self-worth. You can get a new home, your children are safe with me and grandad, and you have to believe you are worthy as we see you. You now have to fight with the demons in your own head, something I wish I could fight for you. The little ones ask after you all the time, and we miss the young bubbly woman you were destined to be, full of hopes and dreams. Please darling girl, don't let the demons win. All my love, Mum. Well, it really is a heartfelt letter, Cathy.

This woman has obviously watched her daughter's family break down. How common is this situation? It is common. It is very heartfelt. There are around 200,000 children in the UK being raised by kinship carers. Most are grandparents, but it includes aunts, uncles, friends, older brothers and sisters. Domestic abuse is a factor in a survey that we did found it was a factor in 24% of kinship care households as to the reason why that family member stepped in to take on the care of the child. So very common. So as I understand it, there are more women now calling your advice line dealing with domestic abuse than ever before.

What is it that they're concerned about? What do they need support with specifically? So we get calls from mothers who have been subject to domestic abuse, but where children's services are now involved as a result of police being called and many are really scared that their children will be removed. They don't understand the system, they don't know what their rights and options are, they often want to you know need to know what they can do in order to ensure that their child remains with them and is safe our advice line is staffed by social workers and lawyers with

lots of expertise in the area so it basically enables the caller to get independent advice to get real about their situation uh to be directed to what help is available um and to put them in the best position to be able to keep themselves and their children safe um but we also get lots of calls from kinship carers or family members who are looking at whether they need to step in um in order to protect the children and now because of the pandemic uh calls to your service have increased it's expected to be worse uh during the christmas period as well so i imagine you you can't help everyone with you know with so many women and kinship carers needing your help no we get uh around at the moment about thousand calls a week we're only able because of funding to um answer around one in three callers uh and uh there's been a big increase in hits to our website.

But I would still say that if you need our advice and support, please do try and ring us because it's really important that if you're in that situation, you get the expertise and the advice that you need. Yesterday on Woman's Hour, we discussed the use of remote child protection conferences. Is that something that you think comes up when parents call you? Is it something that you're for or against? So it's most of those people contacting us involved with the child protection system at the moment are ending up having to take part in the child protection conference by phone. It's a real problem. We are

really concerned about that. If you think, if you put your situation as a mother who's worried about her child potentially being removed. She's a victim of domestic abuse. She's taking part in a child protection conference and she can't see who else is taking part. She doesn't know who's in the room. It's very hard to get your viewpoint across. They're very intimidating conferences anyway. So there's a lot of nerves, a lot of anxiety already.

And if you add to that parents who may also have learning disabilities or whose first language isn't English, it just adds to the mix there are local authorities some trying to do things differently but we're really concerned about remote child protection conferences we understand the obviously safety in terms of Covid about why things are happening remotely but more could be done to make sure that parents and wider family are able to participate, at least by video. And also this can't be the way forward post pandemic. Understood. Cathy, thank you very much for joining us. Cathy Ashley, the CEO of Family Rights Group. Now, should mum still be driving? When does fierce independence become bad behaviour? Am I going to get the right care? Is it worth taking seven different medicines? Next Tuesday, Jane will be talking to the consultant, Dr Lucy Pollock, who specialises

in caring for the elderly and frail. She'll be telling us about why we need to talk about getting older and how we live old well. If you have a question or concerns about how to care for an elderly relative or just thoughts on getting old yourself, we'd like to hear from you. You can email us via the website as always or tweet us at BBC Woman's Hour. Now, still to come in today's programme, firefighter Samantha Evans and the drama, The Mystery of Edwin Drood. But first, Quarry Bank Cotton Mill stands on the outskirts of Manchester. It is now a National Trust property. It features in a play called The Whip by Juliet Jilks Romero,

a new audio version of which is now available on the Royal Shakespeare Company's YouTube channel. The play tells the story of the cover-up of the death of a child working at the mill. Louise Adamson went to Quarry Bank back in 2017 to see an exhibition about the lives of the women and children who worked there and the songs they sang as they worked. Come all you cotton weavers, your looms you may pull down. You must get employed in factories in country or in town. For our cotton masters have a wonderful new scheme these calico goods now wove beyond they're going to weave be steam. I'm Dr Ruth Colton, I'm a curator of the exhibition here at Quarry Bank and an academic at the University of Manchester. Essentially

this is a really early cotton mill so early revolution. 1780s would have been when it was set up by the Gregg family. And the reason it could be positioned here was because of the water, because it could have a water wheel to power the machinery. The exhibition that you've curated is called A Woman's Work Is Never Done. Why is that? The idea behind it is that often when we think of industrial history, think of the industrial revolution, we think of men's history, we think of the inventors who came up with the various machinery or the men who owned the mills. We rarely include the women who actually formed

the majority of the workforce at that time. When the Industrial Revolution happened, there was huge migration from the countryside into the towns and actually a larger percentage of that was of women because they could find work in these factories and the the mill owners wanted women because they could pay them less and they were they were seen to be more dexterous in some ways this situation didn't last as men increasingly became left behind as part of the industrial revolution they started campaigning

for various parts of the industrial process to be relabelled as skilled work and therefore reserved for men. What was life like here for a young woman working at the mill? It was hard. It was very hard. Girls very young, as early as 9, 10, 11, who would come as apprentices, usually separated from their families. They'd be indentured here, so they were handed over to the Gregg family to work in the factory. And the reason they did it, the reason their parents often gave them up, was because they were guaranteed work.

They were guaranteed a trade, and often they were guaranteed food and shelter as well. They had a lot to learn. They had to get it right fairly quickly, otherwise they'd be docked pay. This was their life, basically basically from dawn till dusk until they collapsed exhausted at the end of the day into their beds so ruth we've come inside now we're walking past the place where the water wheel is it's not actually running at the moment but where are you taking me now?

We're now actually moving into one of the spinning sheds, which was where one of the largest pieces of machinery that we have in the mill is. This is the mule spinning. It is a very impressive machine in quite a large room. I don't know, maybe 100 feet long, very low ceiling, massive machine over on our right. What kind of work were women doing here? This machine would typically have been operated by men. This is part of, again, that idea that men did the more skilled work.

What women would have been doing in this room, they would have been doing the piecing work. So every time the machine would run, some of the cotton, which hadn't yet been spun, would be very fragile and would actually snap. So when the machine would come to a standstill, though it would still be running, women would have to quickly get into place and they'd have to re-piece up this machine. I'm Emma Baldwin and I'm a technical demonstrator at Quarry Bank Mill. I'm just piecing up the mule at the moment. You have to put this cotton in between your index finger and your thumb and twist it anti-clockwise with the thread. And it's really simple. It joins it instantly. But they would have the time constraints.

They'd be doing this whilst the machine was running. They would have had the whole team, all hands on deck, doing this task. Women, children and the mule spinner. And they'd be able to do it very quickly because time is money. As long as the machine's turned off, nobody would be earning. I'm sure I'll tell the master or the joss when he comes in They'll daub you down and you must pay so money comes rolling in My name's Jennifer Reid.

I'm the pre-eminent broadside balladress of the Manchester region. I sing and perform 19th century Industrial Revolution work song from Manchester and Lancashire. So the song you heard is the hand loom versus the power loom, a traditional song. Interesting in that it perfectly describes the transition over into the industrial revolution and the factories. They went from this cottage industry where everything was in the home or very, very close to the home to be locked in these factories for most of the day and then overtime and then come home and have to do the domestic chores as well. It was very,

very strenuous life. We are standing in a cellar where the women who worked at Corrie Bank would have lived. So might they have been singing in here? I'd like to say so. Let's say yes. The acoustics are great anyway. And if you're doing a little menial task or you're doing some kind of household chores, singing totally helps. They couldn't actually sing while they were working because the machinery was so loud.

Not to say that they couldn't hum along, but it's very, very hard to keep anything in your head apart from the rhythm of the machinery. They developed me-mawing, which is a type of lip-reading. So don't be gossiping about your neighbour, because they can see what everything you're saying. But yeah, singing, it was more accepted then. It wasn't kind of put on a pedestal like it is now,

like you can only go on the X Factor if you can sing. Then it was more of just another form of expression. Jennifer, how does it make you feel to know that the kind of songs you're singing now were so bound up with women's working lives at that time at Corrie Bank? It's me carrying on the tradition, keeping the fire burning, and I'm doing it for all those women in the past that can't speak anymore, really. If you go into a loom shop, there's three or four pairs of looms. They're all standing idle, a-quittering up the room.

And if you ask the reason why, our mother'll tell you plain. Me daughters have forsaken them and gone to weave fisties. What's really lovely about these stairs is that they're so worn. In places they're completely dipped in the middle. And you can really imagine all of the women traipsing up these stairs in order to get to their daily grind at the machines. So this is one of the mill workers' ledgers. And these are basically the lists of the pay

which the men and women who worked here would have received on a weekly basis. Just to give a sense of the names, I can't read it very well. You've got Ellen Henshaw, Mary Hampton. There's quite a few names which are actually quite common names which keep repeating we can trace the families and how the families sort of stay closely connected to the mill. So for instance the Davenports there's clearly two sisters working Elizabeth Davenport and Anne Davenport who are working there and they working, Elizabeth Davenport and Anne Davenport, who are working there. And they probably also came along together, were possibly indentured together as apprentices. For the first time, we've really analysed these figures. And it's very, very

striking. In pretty much every case, men are being paid vastly more than the women for the same jobs. For instance, in the second weaving room, the highest paid female is paid eight shillings and ten pence, whereas the highest paid man is paid 27 shillings. And they're working in the same room on the same machines. Did the women ever object to this? We have no record of women rising up or demanding change in any way, partly because I think it was sort of accepted that this was the way it was. The men were highly unionised. They were deemed to be skilled labour as opposed to unskilled labour, which the women were doing.

And because of that designation, that justified paying women less. My name is Barbara Sampson and I'm a volunteer here at Quarry Bank Mill in the archives. I've been transcribing letters of the Gregg family who own Quarry Bank Mill and I've also been transcribing the records of the apprentices and how they worked for what seemed to be nothing but they were able to work overtime and accrue a little bit of savings which they then use to pay for certain items.

They might buy some new shoes, or a new gown, and slippers, because they had to buy special slippers when they were working in the mill, because they didn't want any sparks coming up from the clogs, which of course could be a fire risk. Having spent so long then going through the archive, what are your feelings about the way women worked in Quarry Bank and the contribution which they made to it? It's tangible you get a real feeling for these people and you can almost visualise their day-to-day happenings. Ruth we've come through now into another room with a lot of equipment. Where are we now?

So we're now in one of the weaving sheds. The equipment that's in front of you are the looms and they're closely packed into this space so they can have the maximum number of people weaving at any one time. It's getting dark outside, it's quite eerie. Do you think of those women who laboured here all those hundreds of years ago? I do. I have a real strong connection, particularly to the stories which we've been able to uncover. The Industrial Revolution, certainly when you're looking at women, it was a revolution for the changes in work that took place for them, the changes in their lifestyle. And so women formed the heart and the backbone of this story. It's an opportunity to make us think differently about the past and also to make

sure that visitors to the mill, as they're coming through, that they're seeing women, they're seeing those stories, they're seeing the ghosts of the women who worked here and not just the men who ran it. So come all you cotton weavers, you must rise up very soon. You must work in factories from morning until noon. You mustn't walk in your gardens for two or three hours a day.

You must stand at their command and keep your shuttles in play. Jennifer Reid singing us out there. Now, Samantha Evans is West Sussex Fire and Rescue Service's first female whole-time firefighter. She is now retiring, but when she joined the industry 30 years ago, she would be asked questions like, do they let you drive the fire engine? But I'm sure, as Samantha will tell me, it's changed a fair bit since then. Welcome to the show, Samantha. Hello, thank you. Pleasure. Now, as I said, you joined the fire service in 1990. How did you feel about entering a profession with virtually no women? I didn't really think about it, to be honest.

I'd come from an engineering background, so I'd worked in a workshop for four years. And I was the first female on their shop floor and the only one when I left. Wow. So just give us an idea then. What did the fire service look like when you first started? On the ground, not too different. The firefighters are still very similar. We still do the same job, although our role has expanded. But essentially, the way we work, the way we work together, the calls that we go to and how we respond to calls are still the same.

And how did your male colleagues react to you when you first started? The watch I was on, they were fantastic. Just treated me like everybody else. I was expected to do exactly what a firefighter is to do as a probationary firefighter is also to do um my studying because i was on probation for two years so i had probationary tests and they were just a brilliant crew they were more experienced they hadn't had a probationer for several years um at hawley so it an interesting time for them as well because they had to get out drilling a lot as well.

Now, firefighting is known to be quite physically demanding, so how did you find the physical element of the job? It's quite tough. The equipment is heavy. We obviously keep fit. We all have gyms on stations now we didn't so much then we had a certain amount of equipment but not as much as we do now

fitness has become a very very big part of the fire service which I think most people enjoy enjoy getting in the gym and it is a challenge it is a challenge being female and keeping your fitness up and especially your strength because obviously as you get older it gets more and more

difficult and as i said you've been a firefighter for 30 years so how has the way people respond to you in your job changed over the years i mean i initially mentioned there about people being surprised that you're allowed to drive the fire engine i imagine that's changed now yes i think it's become more commonplace we um you don't get so much of the looks that you used to get it's like oh it's a girl you know but now it's it's um more acceptable because people just think that we can do all sorts of jobs. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter whether you're male or female, whatever job you're doing. I think it's more accepted. You don't get those looks. Occasionally you do from sort of the older generation. They still look and think, oh.

But I think from the younger generation now, they don't even bat an eyelid. And because there were so few women in the service uh when you first started in this industry how did they adapt to you going through different stages of your life for example becoming a mother i think it's it's it's like everything as soon as i joined um the service and the people i work with have adapted. So as each issue has come along, whatever you want to call it, they've adapted to it. The same with getting older,

being older and going through the menopause. They've adapted with it. I had a good chat with our PTI. He was really supportive. My whole watch was really supportive. So just like in general life, people have just adapted to everything that's come along. And how would you, I suppose, give some words of advice to those young, aspiring female firefighters

that might be a little bit nervous about joining the industry? Don't be nervous. Keep fit, because that's one of the big things and enjoy yourself because it's a fantastic career it's um watch life can't be beaten and that's probably why i stayed where i was and didn't go for promotion because um i just enjoy it too much on the fire engine and it's uh it's a really good career yeah you i I remember reading that you specifically said that you like running into burning buildings. You like that thrill, don't you? Yeah, being breathing apparatus wearer, I nominated that on my daily sort of routine at work is what I enjoy doing. Wow, incredible. Samantha Evans, you've really blazed the trail for so many in the industry.

Thank you so much for joining us on the programme. Now, there's been lots of you getting in touch. Thank you to everyone that's emailed in or tweeted us. I just want to read a few of them out. There's been a great response to my conversation with Oti. Someone has tweeted in to say, Incredible, such an intergenerational audience supported Bill Bailey on Strictly and how many have been inspired. Dance from a place of joy and gratitude, advised Oti.

A great rule for life too. Indeed it is. And as you might imagine, a very strong reaction as well to the domestic violence talk I had with the CEO of Family Rights Group. Someone has tweeted in to say the anonymous letter read out by a mother of an abused daughter led me to floods of tears. The general public must keep eyes and ears open to domestic abuse if anyone suspects domestic abuse of a neighbor or a loved one please be proactive please don't look away and we had an email in as well on the same subject listening to your excellent account of domestic abuse i can

identify with the mothers we had to call the police too to free our son. Please acknowledge that men are victims too. And that, of course, is a great point. Well made. It's just time now to tell you about what's coming up in the programme tomorrow. Guess Who's Coming to Dinner was a famous film in 1967 about an interracial marriage in the US. Filmed against the backdrop of race riots that took place the same year.

It starred Sidney Poitier, Spencer Tracy, Catherine Hepburn and Catherine Horton. Actor Tracy Ann Oberman has written a play called The Dinner of 67, looking at what happened during the making of that film. She talks to Andrea Catherwood about playing the iconic Miss Hepburn. That's all from the programme this morning.

Thank you very much for listening. Enjoy the rest of your day. Before you go, I'm Miles, the producer of a brand new podcast for Radio 4 called Tricky. This is how it works. Four people from across the UK meet up and without a presenter breathing down their necks, talk about issues

they really care about. Sex work is quite complicated for a lot of people and it's okay to be against it but not to shame someone

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