Woman's Hour - Oti Mabuse, Eldest daughters, Hygiene poverty

Episode Date: January 10, 2025

2025 is a big year for former Strictly professional Oti Mabuse who is judging Dancing on Ice starting this weekend, then going on tour and publishing her first adult novel. She joins Krupa Padhy to tell us all about these projects, becoming a mother and how being on I’m A Celebrity taught her the importance of talking about feelings.The term Eldest Daughter Syndrome is not an official mental health diagnosis, but on social media it has spurred women to talk about the way that being the eldest daughter in the family has affected them. Krupa speaks to therapist Louise Tyler and Sahra Abdulrehman, who is co-director of Home Girls Unite, a support group for eldest daughters. We hear some of the emotional speeches from MPs across the House of Commons during yesterday's violence against women and girls debate including a response from Safeguarding minister Jess Phillips. Krupa then talks to Sophie Francis-Cansfield, Head of Policy at Women's Aid.Former Prime Minister Gordon Brown’s charity, Multibank, is ramping up its efforts to tackle childhood hygiene poverty in 2025. Krupa is joined by primary school Pastoral Manager Kay Shaw, who runs the hygiene bank at her school in Doncaster, and lecturer and author Katriona O’Sullivan, who experienced this herself as a child.

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Krupa Bhatti and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello, great to have you with us this Friday morning. From the dance floor on Strictly to being neck high in a tank full of scorpions and beach worms in the jungle, Oti Mabusi is doing it all, and she joins us for a chat in a few minutes ahead of her judging duties in the new series of Dancing on Ice, which kicks off this weekend.

Also, I come from a family with a high number of women. My mother is the youngest of six sisters, and she often says her eldest sister was like a second mother to her. My mother-in-law is one of the eldest of 13 sisters. And might I add, there are no brothers in the mix. Now, that's why I'm particularly looking forward to a conversation we're going to have about something being called the eldest daughter syndrome. Now, we've been hearing about it on lots of platforms like TikTok,

with the focus being on this idea that the eldest daughter by default often takes on the bulk of that responsibility amongst her siblings and that in turn then becomes the script of her life as she becomes an adult. Of course the dynamics of every family can be different. How does it work in yours if you are the eldest daughter and if you feature elsewhere in the sibling pecking order, how do you view your big sister? Do you recognise those traits, being driven, being in charge, feeling responsible, possibly even feeling constantly guilty?

You can text the programme. That number is 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. Over on social media, we are at BBC Women's's hour you can email us through our website or you can send us a whatsapp audio note or message using the number 03700 100 444 all of our terms and conditions can be found over on our website and we are also going to hear some of those emotional speeches from mps across the house of of Commons during yesterday's violence against women and girls debate, including a response from Safeguarding Minister Jess Phillips.

Plus, we learn more about hygiene poverty, when families are not able to afford many of the everyday hygiene and personal grooming products most of us take for granted. We hear from a teacher who runs a hygiene bank at her school about the gravity of the situation. So please do get in touch on any of the subjects that we are talking about on the programme. But as I said, we are going to be speaking to someone who's got a very busy 2025 ahead of her, from judging the next series of Dancing on Ice, to setting off on a dance tour in June,

to publishing her first adult novel this autumn, not to mention being a mum to her young daughter. Former Strictly professional dancer Oti Mabusi has got a packed schedule, but luckily for us, she's found some time to squeeze us in. And I'm delighted to say she joins us now. Hello. Good morning. Great to have you with us. Now, since we last spoke to you on Women's Hour, you've become a mum. Congratulations, first of all. Thank you. Thank you so much. It's literally taken over my world.

It certainly does. And I was like, oh, my goodness, I forgot how to do this. Like all the talk in the interviews as a mum. Like usually I'd be like, OK, 15 minutes before. But now it's like an hour before and you're still not ready. You're never ready, but you never forget it. So that's a good thing. Now, how are you finding motherhood?

I'm loving it. It's really been a journey of self-discovery. There are moments where I just feel so tired, but then you look at her and she's the happiest girl. And I'm like, wow I get it I get why moms are like this is amazing but this is hard it genuinely is one of the hardest things where you question yourself and you say am I doing this right am I a good mother am I taking care of myself am I a good wife am I a good friend so it's been that journey of self-discovery. But I've loved finding out that I have another

side to me. Absolutely. And let's explore that a bit more because you went into the jungle this year in I'm a Celebrity. And there were times when it felt like those cameras are off. There were those personal, those heartwarming conversations. And one of those featured you in conversation about your daughter's premature birth. And one of those featured you in conversation about your daughter's premature birth. How did that feel for you? I mean, I love being there because I think at some point we all just forgot that the cameras were there. We just completely were ourselves. And when the Reverend came in, I think I was more familiar with him. I knew him and it enabled me to open

up a little bit because I do have that struggle. I mean, just talking to strangers and telling them what you've been through is not something easy. And so when I spoke to him and I spoke to him about her being born early, I felt a sense of power afterwards because I was able to talk about something that I was really struggling to talk about for a long time. And I just opened up and I didn't feel bad. I didn't feel embarrassed. I didn't feel ashamed. He responded and replied to me in the most gracious way. And he prayed for her. And I think being able to open up and talk about what I was going through what I was feeling the little bit of frustration made me stronger and it enabled me to talk about a lot more things that I was probably struggling with mentally by myself.

And your little one is clearly thriving now but what about you when you've had a premature baby and I know that the labor was difficult you had sepsis as well towards the end how are you feeling in yourself now I'm much better and and maybe it's a general thing you know in general we all go new me, new goals. But I feel that now that I have a daughter, I'm more motivated to push, and not just for me and not just for my husband, but for her as well. I want to make sure that she's okay. I want to make sure that, you know, I leave her, if I don't live long, that she's okay while I'm still not there, that I give her life lessons, that we have fun, that we get to know each other as mum and daughter and as friends as well. So I feel good because I feel like I have a new motivation

that is pushing me to do what I do. And that feels like a lot of mental growth. But physically, I know in the past you've spoken about coming back from pregnancy strong not skinny and that has stayed with me yes it's honestly I think and I'm more aware of it now because I'm in charge of another human's body and I know what works and when you're in the media there's this term called snap back you know where women are going I have to go back, the six pack, the way I used to be. And for me, I struggled with that concept, firstly, because my body doesn't work that way.

I don't think it's, for me, was the healthiest way to live. I was in hospital with her for six, eight weeks. And then I had to heal. And then I had to take time to work. And I was just like, you know what? My body right now is not doing what I'm used to it doing. But it's the perfect body for me. And it gave me my daughter. And I need to do everything to make my body stronger.

Not skinnier, not starved, not deprived, but stronger. I needed to be healthy. I needed to check my blood sugar levels, my diabetes. I spoke about having gestational diabetes. I needed to make sure that I was healthier and stronger physically and emotionally for myself, but for her. And I think the term skinny has just become this thing where it's good to be healthy, but to do it in the right way. But it's much better to be stronger and to know that you've got the stamina, you've got the mental capacity to endure your day. And you've got that endurance to be able to keep it constant. Even though it might feel testing at time you certainly sound like

you're thriving all the time. I mean one of the things that tested you quite possibly were the comments that you received when you went into the jungle from the public some accusing you of neglecting your little one by going to Australia how hard was that? I think people didn't know me I think people who who did do that genuinely didn't know me because when I came out, the conversation had completely changed. People were like, we love you. I'm not crazy. And I think it's okay.

I had so many moms write me like, it's just three weeks. She'll be fine. She won't even remember this period. But also my husband was so amazing that he was like thank you for giving me three weeks to bond with my daughter because we don't talk about leaving the daughter or the child with the father because some of us think that they can't do it um and my husband was like, no, I can. And I love this time. And he's feeding her right now.

They're bonded, amazing connection. But I think the concept of mom doing something for herself sounds selfish at first, but I know so many new moms would appreciate it as well. Maybe they're not speaking as loud on social media or on any platforms, but I know so many moms are in need of just taking time for themselves. And it's difficult, especially for those who are single moms and doing it by their own. But that me time is precious.

It's really precious. I had time to think. I had time to sleep. I had time to think I had time to sleep I had time to get over things mentally that were holding me back I just had time you had time to sleep I'm just wondering you were in the jungle I we slept if you didn't see me on screen I was sleeping that's what we did you wake up you eat some rice somebody goes off and do a trial. We sleep. And then they come back, you do a challenge. If you're not doing your challenge, you sleep. So we got like two, two naps a day. So that was much needed sleep that I needed to catch up on. Yeah. But it was the time it was the time to, to think about yourself, not about someone else. It was the time to think about yourself, not about someone else. It was the time to eat for yourself, not for someone else.

And it was just the time that was really precious. So you clearly embraced your husband's support there and your mum too. Now, I spotted a video on Instagram of yours recently in which you capture this moment of your mum interacting with your little one. And you simply ask that question who is this woman now we often say we often say grandparents treat their grandkids differently right in a much more gentle fashion compared to how they treated us is that how it is for you I mean a hundred percent my mother was like my mum was a sports mum if you can imagine so she's a school teacher but also she was a sports mum but and on top of that mom was a sports mom, if you can imagine. So she's a school teacher, but also she was a sports mom.

But and on top of that, she was a dance mom. So it, like growing up, I would say me and Mutzi, we always had schedules, you know, Monday, you're swimming, Tuesday, it's tennis. So we always had schedules and things to do. And even I guess with like healthy living, because we were athletes, it was a lot about, you know, what you put into your body is going to give you energy to dance. So all of that,

we grew up in a quite strict household. And then with my, with my daughter, she's like, Mama Christmas, she's like, she can do whatever she wants. She could scream, she could do whatever it is that she wants. And I was like, who on earth is this woman? Because I needed her growing up. I wanted Grandma Doodoo growing up. But she absolutely loves my daughter so, so, so, so much. And I think their relationship is beautiful. I would say it's very similar to my relationship with my grandma.

So the pattern has carried on. Yeah, my grandma unfortunately passed, but I loved her so much. But that was because I got everything I wanted. Yeah. So many life lessons from what we're talking about at the moment. Let's come and talk about career

because you're juggling it all. The new series of Dancing on Ice starts tomorrow on ITV. This is your third series. What do you love about being a judge? Oh, it is amazing. And I think Dancing on Ice for me is such a beautiful and special and unique show because it's not easy skating. They're literally dancing on blades on ice and it's got such such jeopardy do it but when they do it right the the pros and the celebs it looks absolutely fantastic and it's just a joyous show to watch and to be on a panel I guess it's a different side of the table it's less work I'll tell you that it's much less work but I enjoy being able

to assist someone in reaching their goal or their dream whether it's with positive critique or it's with helpful critique I enjoy the fact that I get to play like one percent in getting them to where they want to be and I have so much fun doing it. I love the dressing up. I love being with the panel. It's amazing with Chris and Jane and Ash. Yeah, I think the whole thing for me, it's three months where I get to just enjoy every Sunday night. And you said that it's easier doing the judging than the dancing,

but you have been on the ice. I've seen you in action on the ice. How hard is that? It's not only hard it's scary because you're moving fast and it's windy um but I'm not obviously I'm not as good as the professionals or Chris and Jane but I enjoyed it I enjoyed the skill and I always say if I wasn't a judge and I did leave strictly earlier, I would have loved to try it as a contestant because what the pros do is amazing and the choreography is amazing. But it's also a great skill to learn, like just skating, you know, just turning on the ice. It's hard work.

It's so much hard work, but it's the things in life that are hard that are most fulfilling. And I think the same about Dancing on Ice. There are a string of contestants joining you. Presenter Michaela Strachan, Hollywood, Hollyoaks actress rather, Chelsea Healy and Fern McCann from The Only Way is Essex. Who have you got your eyes on? I'm looking forward to Fern. I think she is a fan favourite and she's really, really well known and Chelsea as well. But to be honest, all of them, because I think it's the ones that we don't always expect to excel. I mean, last year,

Ryan Thomas did really well, but he was like in the middle. You know, he wasn't outright the winner. We had Greg Rutherford and so many other amazing Amber. But Ryan just came out in the final and was absolutely amazing. So I think even though in the beginning, it's the big names that we're all very much looking forward to. I'm also pleasantly surprised who always wins. Of course, many will know you from Strictly. Many will miss you on Strictly.

Do you miss it? People always ask me this question. I don't ever feel like I left. I always talk to the producer, Sarah James, about it. She's like, it's difficult to say I miss it because I'm still there. I still talk to her. She's one of my good friends. My sister's still there.

So we talk about it for six months of the year. And I'm still dancing. I'm still very much actively dancing. So I don't necessarily feel like I left. And I choreograph on the show. Don't feel like I left. You mentioned your sister there. And I'm actually going to turn the kind of dial slightly and talk about your sister because you're obviously very close.

Our next item after you is going to be about eldest daughters and the responsibility that falls on the shoulders of eldest daughters. What's your dynamic like? That's 100% our dynamic. She does everything and I'm just the baby sister. That's 100% our dynamic. She does everything and I'm just the babysitter. That is 100% our dynamic. She is the head girl of get the family together, do group things together. It's a lot of responsibility. And I know it's a lot on her because she wants to keep the family together.

But also my parents kind of expect that from her that role and and we are from an African household so it's very much mom and dad and then if mom and dad aren't there older sister plays mom and dad and and we're just the silly little two because there's two there's three of us but so me and my middle sister we're kind of like the naughty, cheeky ones. But yeah, Mutzi takes a lot of the responsibility. She does. She plans holidays. She plans birthdays.

She plans get togethers. She comes over during Strictly. We spend time together. But yeah, I can't lie. She does do it. She's an amazing sister. I wish we had more time, but I do want to squeeze in a quick note about all that you're doing in the coming months. Dancing, of course.

You're going back to dancing, not on ice later this year, but with your tour in June. It's called Viva Carnival, starting in Sheffield. Tell us more about it. I'm so excited. The tickets are on sale right now,

but it is... Oh, I just hit my camera. But it's me going back on tour, dancing, doing the thing that I love and connecting with the audience, dancing, having live music, talking. And with this tour, I really wanted people to get the feeling of exploring, but not only the world and carnivals, but themselves and thoughts. And like my last show I did was very emotional.

It was very honest. It was very authentic and I want to do the same with this one but also have people just dance and celebrate in the summer and have a good time. Your spirit is contagious and lastly books you've already written three children's book Dance Focused and now you're publishing your first adult novel what can we expect? I know I've been editing it over the holiday and it's so good. I know it sounds crazy and I know I shouldn't say that. This is not up to me to say.

But I loved writing. I love the idea of getting dance as well inside the book and making it spicy, making it exciting. It's a book that I wanted when you're reading, it's really difficult to put the pages down, that you want to keep reading the whole time. So it's my first one. I'm really nervous, but I love it already. Good luck with it.

Oti Mabusi, absolute pleasure talking to you. And Dancing on Ice with with OT Judging is on ITV1 on Sunday in fact, Sunday evening at 6.30 Now as I turn my head to my other laptop with all the social media coming through, it is full of so many of you wanting to share

your stories about being the eldest daughter, that is what we turn our attention to now Would you describe yourself as driven? Are you often anxious? Do you feel a sense of overwhelming responsibility over pretty much everything in your life? Maybe you are the eldest daughter in your family.

The eldest daughter syndrome is one that is coined by the US therapist, Katie Morton. It's not an official mental health diagnosis, but after a TikTok video in which she described these symptoms went viral last year, more and more women are discussing the way that being the eldest daughter in the family has impacted them from their relationships to how they view themselves. And I should stress, we are not talking about being the oldest sibling. This is very much about being the oldest girl. Here to discuss eldest

daughter syndrome is a British Association for Counselling and Psychotherapy accredited therapist, Louise Tyler, and Sara Abdul-Rahman, who is co-director of Home Girls Unite, a support group for eldest daughters. Welcome to you both. Thank you for having me. Sara, I'll start with you. Now, you are the fifth child, but you are the eldest girl. What's your experience been like of being the eldest daughter? Yeah, so thank you first for having me. I think it's quite interesting because a lot of the girls and women that we work with in our community often think that you have to be the eldest. But I think because even though I have

older siblings, they're all boys, I feel like I still experienced a lot of what it means to be an eldest daughter. What's quite interesting, I'll say in my case, though, is I perhaps when I speak to other girls in the community, it's probably not as strong or not as, I guess, prominent, mainly, I guess, for cultural reasons. So Somali Yemeni and in my household, I guess in our culture is quite matriarchal. So the mum is seen as I guess, like the head of the household. So I've been quite fortunate not to suffer in that regard. But I mum is seen as, I guess, like the head of the household. So I've been quite fortunate not to suffer in that regard. But I think for me,

it was more of like an experience of being a child of immigrants and kind of having that pressure of having to exceed and excel. Yeah. I do want to bring you some of the messages that we are getting in.

Katie on Instagram says, as the eldest daughter, I've always felt I had to be the good girl. Follow the rules, set the example. And this message says, i'm the peacemaker the one who's now parenting my parents i'll be responsible for my parents care too and another writes i am a younger sister but my older sister was definitely driven she was determined to go to university the first woman in our family she had her own

opinions own mind from an early age so much more confident than me and more adventurous, took on responsibilities more easily. So different to me, the youngest child. Sarah, how would you describe eldest daughter syndrome? Yeah, so it's really interesting. I think for me, the way I see eldest daughter syndrome is it's a set of, I guess, unique experiences that an elder sort of faces based on, I guess, their birth order. But what's quite interesting is one of the, I guess, respondents I just mentioned is that you don't necessarily have to be the eldest. So oftentimes we find that the eldest daughter either rejects the role. She either moves out, so she's not part of the household. Or oftentimes it's quite unfortunate that all of the daughters in the house are parentified.

So that's kind of the experience that we've seen as well. What's parentified? So parentification is essentially when you are giving caregiving responsibilities as a child. Louise, let me bring you in here. Expand on those behaviours associated with the eldest daughter syndrome. Well, it's interesting because I agree with your other guests, Sarah, that it's actually, for me, anecdotally through experience with clients, et cetera, in my therapy practices, it's daughter syndrome as much as anything. I'm not so sure if it necessarily has to be eldest daughter syndrome, but it's not an absolute, you can't generalise, but girls are often given a role from very early age of, oh, they're a good girl. They're very helpful. Oh, she'll help. Oh, she's such a good girl. We'll ask her to do X. And boys are often given much

more of a kind of label such as, oh, he can't sit still. He needs to run around outside. So I think very early on, daughters are given that role for domestic responsibility. Where the oldest daughter thing comes in, it's obviously by very dint of the word oldest, you are going to be kind of have siblings because you're the oldest member of a family. And I think that's where the responsibility comes in and very early on there's this sense of we're here to help out parents and look after younger children so I think the your personality kind of develops everybody's personality develops according to there's kind of a mixture of environment genetics and your unique experience as a person. So being the

eldest member, the eldest sibling in a family is an important part of your personality development and some of the kind of personality traits associated with this eldest daughter syndrome are things like an intense feeling of responsibility, struggling with people pleasing, leading to people please all the time, difficult in placing boundaries. So kind of not being able to say to mum and dad, well, you know, I'd like to do X, you know, that kind of thing. And so much of that is being echoed in the messages that we are getting. This message says, I've been described as the glue that binds the family together. Catherine on Instagram says, I'm the oldest daughter of two. My poor sister was always compared to me.

It was harder for her. And that comparison is interesting, isn't it, Louise? Yeah. And that's it. There's a real sense that oldest daughters are are meant to set a very very good example and i definitely hear this from clients is that the oldest daughters are um the higher expectations and as the family kind of goes lower and lower down the family there's less expectations but i think it's i think it's siblings in general i think in a way that oldest daughter, I think it's a mixture of the word oldest and daughter.

So I think the oldest member or sibling of any family has to set a good example and has stronger, higher kind of expectations from parents. Add in daughter with all those scripts about daughters of being good girls and helpful. And it's quite kind of quite a heady mix. But I think if you speak to most daughters they'll they'll identify the daughter part and if you speak with many eldest yeah also the eldest part. Now Sarah I was interested to learn about this organisation Home Girls Unite of which you are a part of tell us about it. Yeah so Home Girls Unite started out back in 2018 as a small project essentially started out with two best friends

who kind of bonded over the fact that they shared similar experiences because they were eldest daughters um so i think there was a lot of frustration that there was no i guess shared understanding about what they could go through i guess the struggles um so it was essentially just a tweet i think on twitter about you know should we start a support group i think it was quite a joke to start off with and then we saw over time that actually there was a huge attraction. And in 2021, that's when we set up as a community interest company. And the reason for that is so we could apply for funding specifically to support the girls and women. So what we do, I guess, our mission is to really create a safe space for our disorders,

to empower them, you know, heal, connect and really just amplify their voices. Because so much so we find that their voices are often just not heard or their struggles are just not seen. So that's what we try to do. And I think we try to do that through a range of different services that cater to all different daughters, regardless of your age and regardless of, I guess, your life experience as well. So we do a podcast. We do monthly events. We've got a newsletter. We also have this like rant session on Fridays where you get to book in like 30 minutes and essentially just have like someone to vent to. Well, that's what I want to expand on. Give us a sense of those conversations. When you are in a room full of eldest daughters, what do you talk about? What do you try do you try and navigate honestly everything that came up I was just shaking and nodding as a

guest all things we've heard before I think one of the main things that come up is sort of that emotional burden that they feel like they have to really hold and not feeling like there's any space in their life to share that so whether that's in the family or even in friendships oftentimes there's an imbalance where you feel like as a people pleaser or just the way you've been raised is you kind of often have to give to other people whereas when they come to home girls they know that actually this is the one space where everyone understands it's a shared experience so I can offload I can share I think oftentimes we also talk about the gendered expectation that's been mentioned as well on girls and how to navigate that and some of the maybe emotional or financial abuse that girls go through as well.

And really just trying to harness their strengths, because I'm often asked, like, would you still want to be an elder still? So if you could change your birth order and, you know, when I do reflect, I feel like I wouldn't because it's given me so many strengths when it comes to leadership or competence or confidence that when I look at maybe my younger siblings, I feel like perhaps there's areas that they lack in. So I think it's trying to harness those strengths and giving them the tools to kind of navigate, you know, being an eldest daughter day to day. Yeah. Sarah there, Louise, saying she wouldn't swap places. I don't know where you are in the sibling pecking order, but would you at all? Well, I'm a youngest sister, youngest daughter. And I kind of feel that I still take on all those roles and responsibilities of being a daughter along with my sister. I think my brother wouldn't be too happy to hear that. He takes on his own responsibilities.

I think every member, every member of each family will have their own kind of set of circumstances that that they might um respond to or react to but where sorry says she's enjoyed that i do i see that um i guess older older siblings is there an element of status in being the oldest in the family and also a and and kind of do you enjoy the idea that you are relied on by parents sometimes or siblings? You know, there might be some satisfaction in that. But what I have seen is that people can become in that situation kind of over performers. And that can be quite addictive. You become kind of an overachiever and an over performer.

And that can play out in other relationships as well in your life. And what I always say is, is that where there's an over performer in any set, in any kind of group, be it a family or a workplace or a set of friends, where there's an over performer, you will also often see a lot of under performers. That's because everyone relies on the over performer and I think that can happen is that can become quite addictive being an over performer always being the one to arrange and organize and control and etc and um sorry I talked about a support group and I wonder if that that's kind of sometimes discussed that it's almost what I call high functioning anxiety you can get into a role of where you feel you've got to solve and do sometimes there's too much doing not enough feeling

yeah absolutely and I think it's some the stuff that we've seen a lot in our community as well with the girls and women that often come to home girls seeking that support and I think for us what we're trying to really do moving forward and I think what we try to do with like the elder slaughter syndrome is thinking about how do we go from a space of like you know surviving right now right to thriving so how do we take all of the you know give them tools and empower them to sort of function day to day and how can we make it that I guess society understands and really recognizes what elder disorder syndrome is and how do we change sort of like societal expectations or even just that shift, I think, in culture as well.

And that's something we try to do through our work and our advocacy at Homegirls. Well, we're getting a strong response on social media to all of what we are talking about here. Lou on Instagram says, it's the opposite for me. I am the youngest and my older sister takes us all for granted. So echoing what Louise was saying there about the dynamics varying from family to family and this one says i am the eldest daughter as young children i had far too much responsibility for the care of my sister i always saw that my children would never be told to take responsibility for

younger siblings i am in my 60s and still struggle with the resentment i feel for my sister but more so my mother who imposed the responsibility on me such a fascinating conversation no doubt this will continue on our social media platforms but do keep your messages coming in throughout the program i'll try and squeeze a few more in but for now let me say thank you to louise tyler and sarah abdul-rahman absolute pleasure to have you here in the Woman's Hour studio. Now, before we move on to our next topic, here is a quick message from Nuala. Hello.

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And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now. Thank you.

Now, yesterday afternoon in the House of Commons, MPs debated violence against women and girls for over three hours. The government's safeguarding minister who closed the cross-party debate was Jess Phillips, who, of course, has rarely been out of the headlines this week. This is after being accused by Elon Musk of being a, I quote, rape genocide apologist for rejecting a request for the government to commission a public inquiry into child sexual exploitation in Oldham in October. She argued that locally led inquiries were more effective at leading to change.

We're going to hear from Jess shortly, but first we wanted to bring you a couple of the contributions from the other politicians that stood out. Firstly, from the Alliance Party on Northern Ireland, Saoirse Eastwood. I am a survivor of abuse myself. Northern Ireland is one of the most dangerous places in Europe to be a woman. I have to say I'm really upset that there are no other members for Northern Ireland here at the minute.

Eight women were murdered last year. Over 20 in the last four. But why should I feel like this? It should be the people that are out there perpetrating these crimes. People that are in this building. People that are everywhere. Statistically speaking, there will be people in this building who are the perpetrators. More often, the people doing this are people we know, people we love. And that's what makes it even more traumatic, upsetting and disgusting.

Saoirse East with their MP for Lagan Valley in Northern Ireland. Later Labour MP Katrina Murray spoke. Violence takes many forms, not just physical or sexual, but emotional, financial and coercive control. Those acts which do not leave physical bruises have just as bruising an effect. The effect of cutting the woman who is on the receiving end of this Acts which do not leave physical bruises have just as bruising an effect. The effect of cutting the woman who is on the receiving end of this off from their families, from their friends that support them and not necessarily their abuser. Cutting women off from the people who will provide the support, who will provide the help,

and from those who will utter those immortal words. You know, you're living in an abusive relationship. And thank you very much to the honourable member of Staffordshire Moorlands, because do not underestimate the power of those words, or the power of those friends, because it was one person who uttered that's me, they got me to get out. Katrina Murray, MP for Cumbernauld and Crocon-Tilloch. Safeguarding Minister Jess Phillips summed up the debate,

saying she was going to give an impassioned speech. Here's some of it. It's been a little bit like being at my own memorial, being in this debate. My husband said my house looks like a funeral parlour, fy nghymhoriad fy hun yn y debat. Roedd fy nghymhoriad fy hun yn y debat. Roedd fy nghymhoriad fy hun yn y debat. Roedd fy nghymhoriad fy hun yn y debat. Roedd fy nghymhoriad fy nghymhoriad yn y debat. Roedd fy nghymhoriad fy nghymhoriad yn y debat. Roedd fy nghymhoriad yn y debat. Roedd fy nghymhoriad yn y debat. Roedd fy nghymhoriad yn y debat. Roedd fy nghymhoriad yn y debat. Roedd fy nghymhoriad yn y debat. Roedd fy nghymhoriad yn y debat. Roedd fy nghymhoriad yn y debat. Roedd fy nghymhoriad yn y debat. Roedd fy nghymhoriad yn y debat. Roedd fy nghymhoriad yn y debat. Roedd fy nghymhoriad yn y debat. Rwyf wedi cael llawer o gyfathrebu, gan ddwy fath o gyfathrebu, gan ddwy fath o ddwyfwyr

sy'n ysgogu, ac rhai o'r rhai rwyf wedi'u gwybod am flyneddau, rhai sy'n cael cysylltiad â fi yn ffres, gan ofyn help ar eu casglu, ac wrth gwrs, rydyn ni'n mynd i'w wneud hynny. Ac mae llawer o ddwyfwyr cyfrifiadau plant arall. Roeddwn i eisiau darllen rhywbeth y ddynion cyfrifiadau plant ar gyfer mi dros y diwrnod diwethaf. to read out something that a child abuse victim sent me over the last few days. It says, I'm a victim and survivor and I gave evidence to the ICSA inquiry and I am angry at the lack of response. This has been turned into a political football. And that was Jess Phillips speaking in Parliament yesterday afternoon. Joining me now is Women's Aid's Head of Policy, Sophie Francis-Cansfield, to talk through all of this. Sophie, we've just heard emotional accounts there from various MPs.

Would you say lawmakers speaking up like this on these important issues have an impact on what you're doing on the front lines at all? I think it's really important in a week where, as the Minister for Safeguarding just commented, that we saw issues of huge importance that have caused so much trauma to children and countless survivors being weaponised, that we are able to have a debate where parties are able to come together, stand united, and highlight the importance of the national emergency that is violence against women and girls, you know, making sure that we are raising awareness, making sure that we are tackling those sexist and misogynistic beliefs

that are still so prevalent in our society. You know, women's AIDS research has uncovered a correlation between those that hold stereotypical views on gender roles and misogynistic attitudes and their tolerance towards domestic abuse, which is, of course, the most common form of violence against women and girls. So having a really important debate like that is really helpful for raising awareness, as the MP from Scotland commented, you know, if we can make someone aware of what they're experiencing and enable them to reach out for support, that can make all the difference. But crucially,

we also need to see this debate matched with action and of course this new government has pledged to halve violence against women and girls in a decade and they're working towards their new VORG strategy so we have a lot of expectation about what we're going to see in that but also some of the legislative opportunities available including the Children's Wellbeing and Education Bill that was debated this Wednesday. And we do hope the government reconsiders the ban on reasonable chastisement because that is such a gap in that legislation. You've highlighted events of this week being the backdrop of this debate.

But of course, this debate was already scheduled in advance to take place. These take place fairly frequently, in fact. And they ordinarily maybe wouldn't get as much attention. I wonder how you feel about that, that it takes extreme conversations like we are having for us to even draw our attention to these conversations? I think, yeah, this is obviously something that we've seen kind of over particularly recent years where certain cases get a lot more media attention than others. You know, there was a huge amount of attention on the Sarah Everard case, but, you know, cases that involve black and minoritised women, but also on a daily basis, you know, the challenges that women and children are facing up and down the country isn't reported. For those of us who are working in the sector, the trauma and harm that is

happening in the family courts is often not well understood, often kind of neglected topics so there are there is so much more to do to ensure that every part of government but also every part of our society whether that be the nhs whether that be kind of employers are all doing their part and we're not we're not just talking about it and being passive we're being proactive and taking that whole system whole government approach to ending this national emergency we are at the start of 2025 um what is it that you would like to see happen at government level this year to support the work that you are doing on the front line it's from our perspective it's really crucial um that we we do recognize this as a as a gendered crime um domestic abuse can of course impact anyone um but it is very well evidenced the kind

of the gendered nature and there needs to be greater recognition of that at a government level. We would ideally like there to be an independent VORG advisory board that sits alongside the government's VORG strategy to ensure that it is being implemented effectively. The National Audit Office are about to report on the previous government's VORG strategy in terms of how well that was implemented. And I think there is a lot of frustration that some of the recommendations within previous strategies and previous reports have not been acted on. So we need to ensure we're learning those lessons. And crucially,

ahead of a multi-year spending review, we need to ensure there is greater investment in specialist services that women and children need, particularly those by and for services that are helping those most marginalised. And you mentioned the independent board, that advisory board, who would you foresee would sit on it? I think it'd be important for, you know, important commissioners such as kind of Dame Nicole Jacobs, the Children's Commissioner, the Victims Commissioner, but, you know, frontline services who can really centre the experiences and voices of survivors and frontline services who are, you know, delivering life-saving services on a daily basis.

There are an array of organisations that are making sure that we have that whole breadth of experience from those might be disabled survivors or deaf survivors, but also particularly migrant survivors who are facing those really challenging additional barriers, it's important that all of those expert voices would be included. Sophie Francis-Cansfield from Women's Aid, thank you for joining us here on Women's Hour. It is 84844. If you want to send in a text message, we are talking about being the eldest daughter. A few more of those comments to bring you. My eldest sister is the oldest of seven.

I'm the youngest. She was just like a second mum. She had the energy to take me out on day trips when my parents were exhausted. She is a matriarch that no one messes with and we all adore her. And Sarah says, I'm the oldest sister of two, but my parents are immature and my wider family dysfunctional. My role has long been the family moderator i get no thanks for it i've now stepped back and feel emotionally healthier for it another message from sarah i think it's the same sarah we don't all identify with this

some may see it as a pleasure a joy or an intergenerational form of reciprocity to be the eldest daughter and called upon to the support of others and sophie from london says try being an only child uh where's she gone there we are try being an only child you have to be the first to push the boundaries have the pressure of being the sole focus of your parents attention but have no one to side with i am very independent but would love to have an ally at times do keep your messages coming in really interesting hearing all the various sides of that conversation former prime minister gordon brown had been in the headlines this week as his food bank charity multibank announced it is ramping up its campaign to tackle childhood hygiene poverty in 2025

and the demand is there research by the the charity The Hygiene Bank found that in 2024, 65% of parents experiencing hygiene poverty said they had to choose between buying hygiene products for themselves or for their children. They also found that one in five of these parents reported their children's school attendance had been impacted by this, with many kids missing school due to dental problems. Joining me now to tell us more is Kay Shaw, a pastoral manager at a primary school in Doncaster who runs the hygiene bank there,

and a lecturer and author, Katrina O'Sullivan, who speaks very openly about her experiences of hygiene poverty as a child in her book, Poor Grit, Courage and the Life-Changing Value of Self-Belief. Welcome to you both. Thank you. Kay, I'll start with you. Tell us about the operation that you run at your school.

How does it work for the kids and, of course, their parents? Yeah, we've been part of the hygiene bank now for about five years. We go and pick up, you know, the products, nappies, toilet rolls, toothbrushes, whatever we need at the time. It's opened up the community. It's opened up so much because parents now come to me over the time that we've been doing it. They know now at first they felt, you know, a bit struggled.

You know, I don't like asking for nappies. Don't ask me this. Now they're happy to come and accept things. There's a massive need for it. There um there's a massive need for it there's a massive massive need for it uh toothbrushes nappies sanitary products um yeah and it and it's it's more and more we're seeing it more and more um and just so i get a sense of that need you've been going for about five to six years now yeah Yeah. How significant has the uptake in demand been? Massively, massively.

The changes that we're making, like you say, children missing school because of dental hygiene. You know, one quote was, what, we can have a toothbrush each. We haven't got to share. You know, children not being in school because they've got no clean uniform. We do the washing powder and things like that. Nappies. But what's's really nice what has been noticed we we sort of give nappies out but parents actually when their children now have outgrown nappies or got some left they're donating them back because they actually have

been so appreciative of the help that we've given they want to give it back to other parents and it's opened up more and more, which is lovely. Katrina, I mentioned your book there and you've spoken very openly about your life growing up. Just tell us more. Give us that insight into the conditions you were facing growing up. So I grew up in a household where addiction dominated two heroin addict parents. And what that meant is like we didn't have food let alone hygiene products so like I grew up in a home where like I children who go through trauma like I did or grow up in poor are more likely to wet the bed to have you know discomfort so I used to roll out of bed in the morning having wet my bed no no no soap no towels no one to teach me to wash and head into school.

A bright, vibrant little girl as every child is. And to be faced with then going into school and being smelly and feeling different and the shame of that, it was horrendous because I just wanted to play and be like everybody else. But I was I smelled of wee. I had nits and I didn't have anybody to care for me. And like, I'm on the extreme end of poverty, but like normal families now, families that are in jobs are experienced this type of, you know, having to make a choice between buying toothbrushes or toothpaste or washing powder. But for me, the consequence of hygiene poverty has lasted my whole life. Like my teeth were so destroyed. Like even teeth were so destroyed.

Like even now as an adult, when I go to the dentist, before I head into the dentist, I cry. I literally know because the history of my poverty is in my mouth, is in the loss of teeth. Like the front look good, but the back are bad. And so I have to go into the dentist. And oftentimes I've just opened my mouth in pride because I get told off. We get told off by the dentist for not having good teeth.

But when you grow up in a family where there is extreme poverty, you don't have a choice to brush your teeth. So for 12 or 13 years, I didn't have a toothbrush. And how did other kids treat you? So, you know, kids are cruel. Like, don't get me wrong, the playground is a fun place but when you're smelly or nitty or you don't have what everybody else has you're you're you're a target and so I was like pissy pants and nitty Nora and like the shame of that I already knew that there was bad things happening in my home I already knew that my family weren't great. I already knew that we didn't have enough and I was hungry. And to be then isolated from my friends was absolutely horrific.

I mean, as a teenager, then we talk about period poverty as well. Like once when I used to get my periods, I used to wag school like I'd have to use a sock or a towel or some piece of clothing to try to use that. And I'd wag school because I didn't actually want to bleed in front of my peers. And we didn't have any access to any sanitary products at all. And it's heartening to hear the work that's happening. But the unfortunate thing is I work with schools. I work with trusts across the UK. It's varied how much help is being offered.

It would be great if there was some recognition that schools that actually have high levels of poverty require extra support and funding from the government to be able to provide these basic essentials in some cases just so kids can participate and have a bit of fun in school it would be so it would have been easier for me to have not been the pissy kid and not be the victim of bullying it would have been so much better for me in school if I'd at least had the security of feeling clean and fresh and capable and I can hear how much this still impacts you now clearly um Kay just listening there to Katrina share her experiences from many years ago are these stories that you still hear

today and that treatment she talks about in the playground absolutely um i think we've got better now at identifying these families a little bit you know we have pastoral managers like myself in schools so uh so we have you know we have a bit more insight we're better at um seeking and getting the support in but definitely definitely, yeah, definitely. Which is very sad. In my case, I had a wonderful teacher called Miss Atkinson. When I was five, I had an experience where she took me into the little bathroom.

She had a little bag. She crouched in front of me. She looked me in the eye and she said, Katrina, you've done nothing wrong. And she pulled out of the bag a white flannel, a white towel and five pairs of knickers that had Monday, Tuesday, you've done nothing wrong. And she pulled out of the bag, a white flannel, a white towel, and five pairs of knickers that I had Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. And she taught me how to wash. And she said to me, Katrina, this is going to be at my desk in the morning, come in a little bit early, take this into the bathroom and wash

yourself before school. That small action gave me the power to not only look after myself, which is so important, but it made me feel seen and valued. And her care. So like while it still affects me, like it's like a blanket, that shame of hygiene poverty. Like I'm still shaking it off now. I'm an academic. I'm a lecturer. I'm a bestselling author. And there's still some days where I think, do I smell? Do I, is that me that smells? And we can protect children from that. But there were teachers like yourself, there were workers who actually worked really hard

to make sure that they provided hygiene support in a non-shaming way. And that actually changed my life. Then Pockets of of sunshine along my childhood made it possible for me to not only survive but thrive in the end and kay um hearing that term pockets of sunshine i'm sure for many families you are that pocket of sunshine just give us a sense of those conversations that you might be having with these young people. I think summing up the rewarding bit, we often, at Mother's Day and Father's Day, I gift wrap, we get some gift wrapping and we get the children in that we know that the parents won't get a Mother's Day present or won't get a Father's Day present or a birthday present.

And we let the children find something, we gift wrap it up nice. So not only does that child feel nice about giving mum something but that mum's having something or that dad's having something very special and that to me is very rewarding. And how do parents react? They're overwhelmed they're absolutely overwhelmed and I think because we've got the relationship with them you know it's broadened. We actually work with a bread and butter company and that's extended now that, you know, where they do the food. But now we're giving the hygiene things as well because it's tipping on, which is amazing. People are willing to accept help now, which is brilliant. Hazel in Harrogate says, I always contribute a pack of sanitary towels to the food bank collection point in the supermarket simple and caring kate would you like to see

more people doing this not just donating food to food banks but other essential items absolutely i think if people knew the difference it makes honest it's it's it's amazing it really really is without yeah without people giving people giving their time and donating, like my childhood wouldn't have been survivable. It was people, my parents weren't well and they weren't capable. They weren't bad people. And it was the people outside of my home, people like Kay, people like the listeners who are donating, who made it possible for me to keep going. So absolutely, giving your time, giving products if you can, giving donations, it really makes a difference to a child

and an adult's life. It really matters. And I think sharing your story has certainly resonated and connected with our audience. This message says, I hope every single politician in Britain and the world are listening to Kate. I think she means Katrina.

What an incredibly sad story in a modern rich country like Britain. It is shameful. Thank you so much for your time, Kay Shaw, who runs the school's hygiene bank in Doncaster, and the lecturer and author, Katrina O'Sullivan. Thank you both for joining us and sharing your stories. Now, on Weekend Woman's Hour tomorrow,

as the government is going to be creating sexually explicit deepfake images, a criminal offence or calling it rather, we'll hear from Channel 4's Cathy Newman about her experience of being deepfaked and the potential impact of this new law. And the actor turned director Lucy Lawless of Xena Warrior Princess fame on the incredible life and career of the fearless war zone camera woman, Margaret Moth. And looking ahead to Monday's Woman's Hour, Nuala is back and she'll be speaking to Britain's first black woman bishop, Rose Hudson Wilkins,

about her new memoir, The Girl from Montego Bay. It tells a story of her trailblazing career over 40 years, despite struggles against discrimination because of her gender and ethnic background. That's on Monday from 10. But for now, thank you for your company this morning

and do keep the conversation going on all that we have discussed at BBC Women's Hour. Thanks for listening. There's plenty more from Women's Hour over at BBC Sounds. I'm Joanna Page. I'm Natalie Cassidy. And we want to tell you all about our podcast

Off the Tele it's basically both of us chatting about what we've been up to on and off screen it's just brilliant who and what we just can't resist

with plenty of behind the scenes stories and gossip yeah cracking we always say cracking now really everything's cracking

is definitely the place for what's occurring oh Jo you do that so well Off the tally. Listen to all new episodes on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.