Woman's Hour - 'Our Greatest Queens' with Anita Rani and Lady Antonia Fraser, Alison Weir, Kate Williams, Tracy Borman and Jung Chang

Episode Date: June 3, 2022

As the nation celebrates the Queen’s 70 year reign this jubilee weekend we have our own tribute to Her Majesty with a special programme to champion some of the other great Queens in history. Anita Rani brings five eminent historians together to champion their candidate including Lady Antonia Fraser on Marie Antoinette, Kate Williams on Liliʻuokalani the last Queen of Hawaii, Tracy Borman on Elizabeth I, Jung Chang on Empress Dowager Cixi from China and Alison Weir on Eleanor of Acquitaine. They consider what each brought to their reign and the nature of Queenship. What traits do all queens share including Elizabeth II ? and what impact will the changes to primogeniture mean for future British monarchs?Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Lisa Jenkinson and Flora McWilliam Studio Engineer: Duncan Hannant

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour. Yes, the Queen's celebrating 70 years on the throne this Jubilee weekend. According to our reckoning, she's only the 16th platinum monarch in history to reach this milestone and the only woman to do so. Previous jubilees in history have been celebrated with week-long jousts and processions of trumpeteers.

Well, there are the trumpets and we're about to have a joust of sorts with a woman's hour twist. We thought we'd mark the occasion and pay tribute to Her Majesty with a look at some of the other great queens in history. To help me do that, I'm joined today by five great historians. Each has nominated their favourite candidate from history,

which we'll get to shortly. But first, let me run you through a few of the amazing women they could have picked. How about Catherine the Great, who began life as a penniless Prussian princess who went on to rule Russia and expand its empire and fortunes? One of my favourites, the Rani of Jhansi, a symbol of Indian resistance. She fought the British to protect her realm and died in battle. Or how about Empress Suiko, Japan's first empress, ruling from 592 to 628. She established Buddhism as the country's official religion

and introduced Japan's first constitution, which focused on the morals and virtues of government officials. I could go on, but it's time to get on with the programme and introduce our historians. They are each going to tell us about a different queen and pitch why they believe they should be considered as either great, memorable, or both. After we've heard from all of them, we're going to see if they can agree on who was the most remarkable.

Now, we've pre-recorded the programme today, so we can't include your comments, but we do still want to hear from you on Instagram and Twitter. But let's now crack on with the show. Joining me are Alison Weir, who's going to be telling us about Eleanor of Aquitaine, one of the wealthiest and most powerful women in Western Europe during the Middle Ages. Lady Antonia Fraser is championing Marie Antoinette, the last queen of France, who reigned before the French Revolution. The author Young Chan, who wrote the best-selling Wild Swans, has chosen an empress,

Empress Dowager Tzu Chi of China, who ruled for 47 years until the day she died in 1908. Kate Williams is championing Lily Kalani, the first and last queen of Hawaii. And finally, Tracy Borman has chosen our own queen's namesake, Elizabeth I, the Virgin Queen. But she wasn't really a virgin, was she? I mean, we can get to that. Just setting the tone. I'm delighted we're doing this Queen special, especially as I literally have the name for the job.

Rani means Queen. Perfect. So you win. Yeah. Yes. Before we get to your Queens of choice, are there any others that you want to big up and mention before we get into it?

Queen Victoria. Of course, there is a difference. Of course, she reigned rather than ruled personally, although there were some instances where she did interfere politically. But she could be accounted in many respects a great queen. Absolutely. I would also put in a pitch for Queen Anne, who is often overlooked, or at least we just talk about her numerous pregnancies and her relationship with the women who surrounded her. But actually, I think she was a great pragmatist and she had the sort of Stuart charisma. And she appreciated that the crown no longer ruled, but she also appreciated that people loved the pomp and the pageantry and that kind of

mystique of royalty and she gave them that in spades. We still love a bit of that. We haven't mentioned my beloved Mary Queen of Scots who's one of the most interesting people who reigned and there is a distinction she was Queen Consort of France and Queen Regnant of Scotland. And she must never be forgotten. She can't be forgotten. Well, there was the first woman emperor in China, Wu Zetian, who did a lot for the development of Chinese civilization. But she, at her time, it was okay for woman to be the queen or the empress in her own right. But she was not,

in my view, not so remarkable as Empress Dowager Cixi, because at Cixi's time, women had no mandate to be the ruler. And so that was quite remarkable. And of course, what she did, which was greater than the other empress, Wu Zetian, was she brought medieval China into the modern age. She was the first modernizer of China. We'll be hearing all about it in just a moment. Actually, let's understand the difference between a queen consort or the queen regnant? What's the difference? Well, it's rather an important difference because the queen consort is merely, merely married to the king, whereas a queen regnant is she who sits on the throne. Our present monarch is queen regnant, and the late Duke of Edinburgh was actually her consort and it's an important distinction. It is indeed

so a queen in her own right not through marriage Right, time to hear about our five queens so I'm going to take our candidates in chronological order. First up Alison Weir with Eleanor of Aquitaine. Trees are not known by their leaves, nor even by their blossoms, but by their fruits.

Trees are not known by their leaves, nor even by their blossoms, but by their fruits. Tell us about Eleanor of Aquitaine. Did she reign and why was she so significant? She didn't reign, but she ruled. She became Sovereign Duchess of Aquitaine, Countess of Poitou at the age of 13. And she was married first to the King of France, the King of the Seventh, and then to Henry II of England. And the transfer of her vast domain, she was one of the greatest heiresses, probably the greatest heiress in medieval Europe. The transfer of her vast

domains, first to France and then to England, set the pattern for European diplomacy and warfare for the next four centuries, basically. So she is very important dynastically. And she was a consort, of course. And she enjoyed some power, some influence. But it wasn't until she emerged actually from prison on the death of Henry II. He'd kept her in prison for 16 years. Why? She had backed their sons in a rebellion against him.

He refused to delegate power in the territories he'd assigned to their sons. And so she backed the sons and this rebellion was probably the worst crisis of henry's reign and she was caught and the chroniclers expressed outrage not that she'd actually betrayed her husband but that she was wearing men's clothing when she was caught when she was arrested and she was spent she spent 16 years under house arrest or in straight captivity and when when he died in 1189, her son, her favourite son, became King Richard I, Richard the Lionheart. And he sent to England, he was abroad at the time,

and he commanded that Eleanor be deferred to, that Eleanor rule England for him. And she did for the next five years, during most of which he was out of the country on crusade and then in captivity and then fighting abroad. So she then, at the age of 65, which is a great age in the 12th century, came into her own and she ruled England not only wisely but compassionately. And it's on these years that her reputation rests because she had rather a more colourful reputation when she was young.

Her affairs were notorious, probably one with her uncle and one with her future father-in-law, just for starters. Tableau Press would have had a field day. So she stood for legitimacy. She established Richard as king in England. She took oaths of allegiance. She married off royal wards to men who were loyal to him. But then she did other things to popularise his rule.

She standardised the currency. She standard she standardized weights and measures which helped trade enormously she she mitigated the very harsh forest laws which many people suffered under and she her compassion is shown particularly in an instance where there was an interdict laid on the on the land near ely and she listened to the villagers about the tales of bodies lying unburied in the fields because the bishop refused to bury them under the interdict. She went hastening off to London and prevailed on the bishop to have this lifted.

And she also arranged for the freeing of prisoners, saying it was a delightful refreshment to the spirits to be released from captivity. She could empathise with them. So she was a prison reformist? She was. She was aise with them. So she was a prison reformist. She was. She was a reformist in many ways. And there were many, many small instances

of things she did that ameliorated the lot, not just of ordinary people, but of the poor. And that's unusual compassion for that era because this is an era where kings are war leaders. They're military monarchs. It's quite a brutal age. Queens were meant to represent the gentler side of monarchy. And Eleanor combined the two.

She was a strong, courageous and very feisty ruler. But she also had a compassionate heart. And that comes across, that shines across. One cannot imagine her abandoning the brave sailors of the Armada. Here we go. To starve in the streets. And I love her character. Here we go. in one phrase. And it's clear that although she had no actual formal role, Richard had charged her with ruling England and the men who assisted her deferred to her all the time

and clearly had great respect for her. We know, we were told she was very popular, her wisdom was praised. And one thinks if only if she had had the chance to exercise power earlier, you know, what would she not have achieved? Sounds like she had a terribly unhealthy marriage as well if he blocked her up for 16 years yeah but she was a bit of a girl

yes sort of a girl when she was young uh and there is an there's one account uh which describes her as exceedingly shrewd and clever woman born of noble stock but unstable and flighty that was written at the time when she was young and when her behaviour on crusade definitely drew comment because she clearly intrigued with her uncle against Louis VII. She was married to the King of France at that time. And it was said that she'd shared the couch of Louis with her uncle. It was also said she shared the couch of Louis with Henry, whom she later married.

So she was... And with his father. She was having a good time not the virgin queen not oh definitely not nine children nine by henry two by two by but of course all these quotes that we're going to be hearing about these women were probably they were written by men so yeah we're absolutely yes i mean when you find one chronicler who's praising her and he's in all her virtues and her strengths's not what one would usually expect of a woman. You know, have to put a rider in.

Yeah, whatever that is, what you can usually expect from a woman. So we can sum up by saying she reigned as a queen consort, but also eventually ruled in her old age as regent for her son, Richard the Lionheart. Yes, effectively as regent, yes. And finally, but most importantly, she guaranteed the accession of the throne. The legitimacy of the succession because she not only drummed up support for Richard in England and he helped to establish him

as king. He was not well known in England. He'd spent his time, he was associated with Aquitaine. And then when he died ten years afterwards, she came out of retirement and travelled all round Western Europe to secure the succession of her son John

The ultimate goal of a monarch Absolutely, yes Thank you very much Alison Thank you Time now to hear about Elizabeth I with our second guest, Tracey Borman I know I have but the body of a weakened, feeble woman, but I have the heart and stomach of a king, and of a king of England too.

I mean, wow, powerful. That quote just kind of lifts your spirits, doesn't it? So, Tracey, tell us briefly about Elizabeth. Why was she so important? Well, there's a running theme, I think, in the history of the British monarchy that often the greatest monarchs are those who were never supposed to come to the throne at all.

And this was definitely the case with Elizabeth. She was the younger, forgotten and in many people's eyes, illegitimate daughter of Henry VIII by Anne Boleyn. And she had little prospect of ever becoming queen for much of her childhood and youth. And I think it's one of history's greatest ironies that her father went to so much trouble, not to mention wives, to beget a male heir when it was Elizabeth who would go on to be his longest reigning and most successful heir by a country mile. As I mentioned, she was the daughter of Anne Boleyn, who was the scandal of Christendom. And Elizabeth had to fight against that prejudice, both against her mother and her own illegitimacy throughout her life. And when she came to the throne, there was huge prejudice, not just against her, but against

female rulers generally. John Knox famously declared, it was more than a monster in nature that a woman shall reign. And Elizabeth, as we heard in that quote, kind of pretended to agree. Oh, she's always apologising for being a weak and feeble woman. That was pure stagecraft on her part. She didn't agree with it at all. She was playing the men around her at their own game and she did it brilliantly. She used her feminine weaknesses as they were perceived when it suited her, wouldn't be pressured into making decisions because she's just a weak and feeble woman. She can't make a decision. She bought herself time. And she was a mistress of PR. More than any other monarch I've ever

come across. She was brilliant at propaganda and at crafting her own image. But more practically as well, this was a time when England was divided religiously between Catholics and Protestants, and nobody had succeeded to resolve those divisions until Elizabeth came along. And she was just a great pragmatist. She didn't actually say about not making windows into men's souls, but that encapsulated her approach. She settled this vexed question of religion and settled peace and prosperity on the country as well. And people needed that after the turbulence of the Reformation and her father marrying so many times and her sister trying to return England to Roman Catholicism. And so she was exactly what was required. I haven't even mentioned the Armada in her list of accomplishments, but this was an age when England began to emerge as a world power. Now, the Armada was prompted in theory by Elizabeth executing Mary, Queen of Scots, who we've mentioned already.

And it was seen as kind of vengeance for that by Philip of Spain, although I think he had his eyes on England anyway. But Elizabeth's brilliant navy defeated the Armada with a bit of help from the English weather. But this is when Elizabeth's genius shows through. She really makes the most of this victory, delivering that famous speech, of course, having portraits made. You know, the Armada portrait is still world famous.

Medals were struck. And it really cemented her position as Gloriana and good Queen Bess. And it almost made her kind of an icon in her own lifetime. She was a great propagandist, and she made the most of the fact that she was unmarried. Now, this was obviously her most famous kind of characteristic, the Virgin Queen. And by the way, I do believe she was a virgin. Do you? I think she may have dallied, but never enough to sacrifice her virginity. Why do you think that? Well, really, you only have to look at her childhood.

Her mother is executed on the orders of her father. One of her stepmothers is also executed. She sees the example of her sister Mary, who makes a disastrous marriage and suffers phantom pregnancies and is abandoned by her husband. But I think also it came down to Elizabeth. She fought hard to be queen. She wasn't going to give away any power. As she famously put it,

I will have but one mistress here and no master. Now, this caused such unease amongst her subjects. It was inconceivable for a woman not to want to marry because how is she going to govern herself, let alone a country, without a husband? And yet Elizabeth made a virtue of it. She became the Virgin Queen, almost like a Virgin Mary figure on earth whom people could worship. And she didn't at all conform to the stereotypes of female rule. She confounded them. And I think by the end of her 45-year reign,

she'd turned everything around and really made England fall in love with queens. But ultimately, she didn't produce an heir. That was the only snag. And I think we have to forgive her for that. I think it was the right decision not to marry. She knew how divisive it would be to marry a subject, an English person, and equally that a foreign marriage would also come with problems.

A therapist would have a field day with her, wouldn't she? You know, just, my father murdered my mother and here I am. The child he never thought would sit on the throne and I'm doing an amazing, better job than him at it. I know modern day analysis would really have a feel Daisy say and you know maybe

it's oversimplifying it to say because of her mother's fate Elizabeth decides to become a virgin but it has to have been a factor but as well I think she just had such a tortuous path to the throne. She didn't want to give any of her hard-fought power away. Can I ask Tracey a question?

Yes, of course. I've always wanted to know the answer, and I think you're going to give me. Why didn't she reverse her own illegitimacy? Yeah. Because she was illegitimate and declared illegitimate by Parliament. Yes. And yet, when she had all the power, she didn't have her mother's remains reburied, as some people expected her to. Anne was buried at the Tower of London alongside other traitors. But I think Elizabeth knew the controversy all too well surrounding her mother and the

annulment of her mother's marriage to Henry VIII. And she didn't want to reignite those past hostilities. So I think pragmatically she focused on the now and the resolution of the religious differences and establishing her rule. Like you say, she was a PR genius. Don't remind people. Tracy Borman, thank you very much.

Now it's time to hear from our third guest, Lady Antonia Fraser, who's going to tell us all about Marie Antoinette. Courage. I have shown it for years. Think you I shall lose it at the moment when my sufferings are to end? What a great quote. Everyone thinks of Marie Antoinette because of the other quote, let them eat cake, but there's more to her than just that, as we've just heard.

Can you sum up what she did and why you think, Antonio, she's so important? I'll begin by saying, and one has to say it over and over again, she never said about the poor, let them eat cake. It was probably said by a Spanish princess who married a much earlier French king. You know, a sort of young woman doesn't really know what she's talking about, probably. But the other reason is Marie Antoinette would never have said that.

She would have gone into the fields and said, would you like best cake or bread? You know, because the essence of her character was compassion, and that's why it's much better to compare her to the late Princess Diana in that way than to use that idiotic quote. Do I think I put an end to it? Yes, absolutely.

Look, I'm scratching it off my script. Even its lies. Yeah, even its lies. Absolutely. But I suppose it's about the quotes telling us what the perception of her was, that she lived a privileged life. But I suppose it's about the quotes is telling us what the perception of her was, that she lived a privileged life. But as with all women of her time, she was used as part of a bigger plan. I'm going to argue that she did not have a privileged life and she showed great courage.

She was born the 15th child of the Empress Maria Theresa. Now, I'm the first of eight children. I can't see anything privileged by being the 15th child of anyone. And therefore, marriages were just doled out down the line. And she was doled out to the Dauphin of France.

She was there for one thing, which is to produce an heir, and then another heir. That's, you know, what you have an Archduchess for. She was there for one thing, which is to produce an heir, and then another heir. That's, you know, what you have an archduchess for. But she was 14 and a half. Can you imagine? She wasn't 15 until November.

And there we are. And the Dufa does nothing. And I mean does nothing on the wedding night. And the next morning the court all comes crowding in, I'm being serious and saying, how was it for you, ma'am, that kind of thing. Nothing. And it goes on being nothing.

And do you know that she had her first child eight years after she got married? The humiliation letters from the Empress, her mother, saying surely I'm not using the language of the Empress, surely you know how to turn a man on is that alright?

Yeah, I mean, yes absolutely we can even push it further if you like but we'll leave it there. The Empress did but I'm not going to. And, you know, the court is mocking her. In the meantime, there is the king, her husband's grandfather, Louis XV, who has mistresses, and clearly everything is fine in that department with him.

So she's really humiliated, and her sister-in-law, Comtesse d'Artois, does have a child. So can you imagine the horror of an uneducated teenager? She's saved by one thing, which is why I was so moved to hear the gluck at the beginning. She does love music and genuinely knew the little Mozart. They were the same age. And there's a story he tried to kiss her at the Austrian court, which I believe. And another story, which I'd like to believe,

that he asked her to marry him, age six. Because if Mozart had married Marianne Trinette, it's one of the great counterfactuals of history. First of all, Mozart would have been rich. So would he have given us what we love more than life, the music of Mozart? And then she'd have been a sort of Viennese house frow and presumably would have lived a long life. Anyway, that is to distract from what actually happened

to the coming of the French Revolution. And then she becomes a figurehead for persecution and terror. She maintains her courage throughout. Her husband was taken away and then tried, executed. And then it's not long before she herself is tried, not only tried, but horrible allegations of misconduct with her little boy. And then it was almost her finest hour.

She appealed to the court and said, Which of you, who is a mother here, cannot understand that is unbearable. It was obviously completely untrue, and the little boy had been sort of coached. She went with courage to her death. What was she being executed for? Nothing, just for being married to the king. And with infinite politeness, as she went up the steps to the guillotine,

she happened to just tread on the jailer's foot, the man who was going to execute her. And she said in French, Sorry, monsieur, I didn't do it on purpose. So to the last minute, thinking of other people, maintaining courage and dignity. And then she died. And so I shall always admire her. There have been many brave queens in history,

but for me, Marie Antoinette is my favourite for that quality. Incredible story. Did she achieve much in terms of her legacy? There's one quote that I was struck by, which said that what she was actually like was beside the points. The image of the Queen was far more influential than the woman herself. Is that her real legacy, do you think? Well, I don't know. We're all sitting around this table as biographers and I think we always want to know actually what the Queen was like herself rather than the image

I don't think the image of Marie Antoinette was more important than the Queen as an individual although it was a very strong image of extravagant frivolity which really wasn't true it's so interesting, I discovered that the annual allowance and payments of the Queen's aunts, who were spinster women,

were far greater than her own. She didn't really go spending money in that way. She wanted to roam about among flowers, you know, pick flowers and talk to our children. They were so cool with all that propaganda about her around the execution, weren't they? All the mean things they said about her and attacks.

You know, when I went to read all those satirical documents, I went to read them in the archives in France, I thought that our royal family should be so lucky because, I mean, this is really vicious. Yeah, and you know, you

could just execute her. Why the public shame and humiliation on top of that? You know, that is the really sinister added layer to this, that it's not just we're going to kill her off, we want to make sure that the public really hate this woman. And it was

something that couldn't have happened to a man. It was very much addressed to a woman, don't you agree? So much misogyny. It's what happened to Anne Boleyn, what they threw at her. Complete character assassination. It wasn't just one

man she was having adultery with, it was five, including her brother. It had to be just absolutely depraved. The worst, worst things. That's what they were trying to do. Thank you so much, Antonia. Thank you. Now to our fourth guest, the author

Yong Chan, who is going to tell us about the Empress Dowager Tzu Chi from China. Whoever makes me unhappy for a day, I will make suffer a lifetime. Nice and clear. Whoever makes me unhappy for a day, I will make suffer for a lifetime. She sounds terrifying. Tell us more. Well, she was terrifying, but she certainly didn't say these things. This was a complete quote, like the quote against Mary Antoinette. And she didn't say it, but it was her most famous quote.

So all Chinese know this quote, and I was brought up with this quote as the image of the Empress Dowager, Cixi. in 1835. And so when the Opium War started, she was a child. But she did live through the burning of the old summer palace in Beijing in the hands of Lord Elgin during the invasion of the Anglo-French army. She was at that time a lowly concubine. And so in 1860, when this old summer palace was burned, she went into exile with her husband, the emperor, as did the whole court. And her husband loved the old summer palace.

He was heartbroken. He refused to return to Beijing. He stayed in self-imposed exile and basically died of a broken heart in the northern wilderness. So after the husband died, his only son, the son happened to be with Cixi, became the emperor. But the son was only five years old. The emperor, before his death, had appointed eight regents to supervise the son. But the eight people were as xenophobic and haters of the West as the emperor himself. So Cixi was 25 at the time, and she could see that in the hands of these eight people, China was going to continue to suffer defeat and the country, whole country would be ruined. So she launched the palace coup and seized power from the eight regions.

And she did this in collaboration with the empress. And she was a lowly concubine. There were many, many other concubines. And so that sort of actually was, that defeated the old image of the women backbiting, hating each other in the harem. Actually, in the harem, they formed an alliance

and launched a coup. And that coup in 1861 changed China because she decided with the empress that they were going to modernize China and China began to open up then the first you know foreign embassies were established the trade with the west and everything and China began to become prosperous. I mean just the strength of character that she must have had on the smarts from a lowly concubine to get the ear of the empress

to then convince her that we are going to do this. Amazing. Yes, it was amazing. And she was also something of a feminist, wasn't she? She was. I mean, you know,

I first got interested in her when I was researching wild swans. This was more than 30 years ago. And I realized that she was the person who banned foot binding. Yes. Because my grandmother suffered foot binding. And basically you crush a girl's feet, crush the three toes, the four toes. Only the big toe was allowed to grow. And the other four toes were crushed under big stone and the binding was just to stop the broken bones from recovering.

And my grandmother suffered that and this became a childhood nightmare for me because I saw my grandmother suffering. And this foot binding tortured Chinese women for over a thousand years. And she hated it. It's incredibly cruel, incredibly painful. But still, to this day, we control women through their bodies, whether we're telling them to cover up, whether we're telling them what they can and can't do with children, whatever it is, it's through their bodies

that we control them. But Yongxi essentially only managed to rule as a woman by being regent. First to her son, then to her nephew. But she did it spectacularly. Yes, I mean, she started, you know, China's first press, you know, the first

everything, electricity, the car, everything. And know, the first everything, electricity, the car, everything, everything. And she was the first person. And in the last few years of her life, she developed a program to give the vote to the Chinese and to turn China into a constitutional monarchy, when she was actually the absolute monarch, even though in the son's name. And so the year after, she died in 1908, unfortunately, you know, with dysentery. So she didn't see the fruits of her or her programs.

But the year after she died, China had its first ever election. And in 1913, again, according to her program, China had its first general election and elected the president. I mean, China was actually then a flourishing democracy for 16 years until Chiang Kai-shek helped with the Russians, with the Soviets, then defeated the democratic government and established a dictatorship in 1928 and China then going straight downhill to Mao's time. I mean, what a story. What an incredible story. Thank you, Young. And now for our fifth and final historian, Kate Williams, who's going to tell us about Lili Kalani, the first and last queen of Hawaii and independence

is larger and dearer than the life of any man connected with it. Love of country is deep-seated in the breast of every Hawaiian, whatever his station. So, Kate, those are the words of Queen Lili Kalani talking about Hawaii and its people. And the music was actually composed by her. So she was a great, before we talk about anything else, she was an accomplished musician.

Yes, Lili Kalani was a great figure, a figure of independence and struggle. But she was also this very talented composer and her songs really are all about Hawaiian independence. And she even composed while she was in prison after she'd been forced to abdicate. So she really is to me a symbol of great strength and courage, not with a sword, not with battling, but really in quiet dignity and courage. She was born in 1838. She was adopted by a chieftain. Her biological mother was advisor to the king. The said he that the

biological mother's children could be uh heirs to the throne so her brother came to the throne first and she then ruled for him reigned for him as as regent and during that she had very enlightened ideas there was a big smallpox outbreak and she quarantined the island so very modern she shut down the borders and quarantined the island so cut the cut the death rate to very small because obviously smallpox was a was it was decimated populations and so she was in great very enlightened intelligent but she hadn't had much education because there had been really two schools really and you one school for hawaiian children and one school for children of the european and American settlers. And the missionary school for the Hawaiian children was pretty brutal. There was a measles outbreak. So her younger sister died. So that was a very hard time. And then when she came

as a regent to her brother, she was a very intelligent, enlightened queen. And then she came over for Queen Victoria's Golden Jubilee. She was touring Europe, really, I mean, mean creating diplomatic links for Hawaii then her brother was forced to abdicate he was forced to abdicate by by the American farmers really because the sugar farmers because they felt that they wanted their interest represented more than the Hawaiian interest he was really forced to do so she came back to support him and then he died not long after and she became queen and she very much said, I am queen. I'm not abdicating. I am actually queen. We're going to have the monarchy of Hawaii ruled by the Hawaiian people. But she was then once more forced to abdicate.

And these were quite violent, forced abdications. You know, she had no choice. And she was told that she didn't abdicate. You know, her supporters would be would be would you know, her family would be in danger. And she was then later she was arrested and they tried to imprison her really because she was such a terrifying figure. She was such a terrifying figure, the Queen of Hawaii. Everyone was, you know, she really undermined the idea that many of the people who've been forcing her to abdicate were saying was no one's done the throne. Americans. It was in order to create really merchants,

missionaries and farmers really to create it much more of a sort of a client state to make lots of money. So she did fight back, but she was imprisoned and she was initially sentenced to hard labour, but they commuted it to just imprisonment in the palace. And then she had this incredible strength and courage then and carried on composing, composed all these songs about Hawaiian independence.

So even though she could no longer be queen, she composed these songs that have lived on long past her about Hawaiian independence. The one that you played, one of the best known songs in Hawaii that symbolises so much. She was there when, in 1898, the Hawaiian flag was lowered. The US flag went up in its place, she spent the rest of her life as a private citizen. But to me, she's such an incredible icon of resistance. The 19th century was a time of empires going across the world. And there were many women who fought back against empire in so

many ways, sometimes in battle, sometimes with swords, sometimes in sort of subterfuge and for her you know she really I think was provided this incredible image of of strength and dignity under the most impossible odds they were that they tried to take everything from her and absolutely heartbreaking to have to live through that and witness that happened to your country or you and your dynasty and your people to be the last queen of Hawaii the last ever queen. But you know, interesting, because she was such an accomplished musician and that she composed the music, we hear that music and instantly we know what it is.

So what a great legacy to have left behind. What an incredible legacy that her songs will always live on, symbols of independence. And she talks in her songs about how Hawaii is in her blood and in her bones. And I think her songs mean so much in Hawaii and also across the world in terms of symbols of resistance and symbols of dignity and courage and she did what she could and and she tried so hard and you know it was she was against these impossible odds but but still she carried on

fighting and she still in her heart was Queen of Hawaii till the end. She's Queen of Hawaii till the end. Not just in her heart, here on Woman's Hour. Thank you for bringing her to the table. Now for the difficult part. Has anybody shifted their opinion and reconsidered their pitch? Antonia, you've already said that Marie Antoinette was a truly great queen. Your favourite because of her courage.

What do you think her greatest strength was? I think her greatest strength was courage when nobody would think she was courageous or notice. I think most of us, or should I just say myself, if I do something brave, I rather want people to know I've been brave.

Yes. Symphonic laughter, but it's true. But she had to face really appalling situations and with no one, only people reporting absolutely invented salacious stories about her. But she kept going and I admire that very much. Alison, from what you've said about Eleanor of Aquitaine, was her greatest achievement to secure the dynastic place in history?

I would say that that was one of them. But I would also like to say that I think that for the period in which she lived, she ruled with compassion. But I do feel having heard these incredible stories of, you know, the Dowager Empress and Queen of Hawaii,, and, of course, of Elizabeth. One can't really measure Eleanor's achievement against them because had she ruled for longer, I might have done so more successfully.

So while I think she was a great queen in who she was and what she did, I don't think she can compare with any of them. Tracy, you know, I think you probably might have come in here this morning thinking, I've got this in the bag. It's Elizabeth I, you know, 45 years, Virgin Queen. But then Young brought in the slam dunk with the Dowager Empress. Did she impress you or are you sticking with Elizabeth? Oh, no, she certainly impressed me. And what a, you know, a kind of awe-inspiring and harrowing story as well. And I think with each of the women we've been discussing,

there's a distinction between greatest and most memorable. And I would say the latter is more difficult to decide on, actually, because all of these women deserve to be remembered. But, yeah, perhaps I was slightly blasé, thinking, you know, I merely have to turn up today and mention the word Elizabeth and that's it, it's in the bag. But she has some real contenders here. I would still say, though, you know, certainly in terms of a queen's regnant, and I realise it's not a level playing field here today, but I think she is our greatest Queen regnant. Well, I agree. I think the Empress Dowager Cixi was extraordinary. But in terms of greatness, and in terms of the legacy one leaves behind, I think Queen Elizabeth I is the greatest. And I think simply because she contributed to Britain,

to how Britain evolved, and how we got to today's Queen Elizabeth II. And so she enabled that evolvement, unlike Empress Dowager Cixi, whose legacy was overturned by tyrants after her. I think Mary Queen of Scots would be turning in her grave if I didn't speak up. Therefore, ma'am, I'm going to speak up and say this is very obvious, there's one thing Elizabeth I did not contribute, and that was an heir. And the blood of Mary, Queen of Scots, is

in the blood of our Queen. Very true. I'm happy to say. And doubly in the blood of Prince William because Princess Diana was also descended. Yes. You might say Mary had the last laugh when it came to their relationship. Yeah.

And it's incredible, isn't it, that James takes Mary out where she's buried and puts her in Westminster Abbey, very near Elizabeth. Mary always met very near Elizabeth in the big, big, big tomb which she said, you know, she should never have been executed. When I first went to see the tomb of Mary, Queen of Scots, which was

a terribly exciting moment, I got a special date from the dean to go. But I happened, I didn't mention it, I happened to be eight months pregnant. And I clambered up, up the rails, and in order to see whether it was true by dimensions of her head, which would make one understand how tall she was,

she was very tall. And I was clambering like that when somebody who'd not been told a verger came along and said, in effect, what on earth are you doing? She said, it's quite all right. I'm just measuring the skull of Mary Queen of Spain. I must ask, Kate.

Yes, please do. The only time I went to Hawaii, it was full of very tall, very beautiful women. Was your lady very tall? Queen of the Kearney, she, not particularly tall. I mean, no one could be as tall as Mary, Queen of Scots. Maybe that's where Princess Diana got her height from. How tall was Mary, Queen of Scots?

Six feet. As Elizabeth said, she was too tall. Too tall tall was mary queen of scott six feet as elizabeth said she was too tall too tall sorry kate carry on she was very beautiful she had this great charisma and she was a very intelligent charismatic woman and and she wasn't and of course photography was then possible so we have these photos of her as this icon of remembrance and she the first and last queen of hawaii i think it's, quite a lot of the last monarchs of countries are often women. Thank you for bringing her to our attention. Does she still get your vote or are you switching to anybody else?

Well, it's been such an incredible session listening to all these amazing women, all the dignity of Marion Twinnette. What I'm surprised about Dowager Empress Sushi is, unlike Queen Lelakalani, she really came from nothing. So she really was someone who forced her way up. She wasn't born into it at all. And that shows such a power of character. And I'm so obsessed by anyone who did so much for women in terms of foot binding, has a great legacy.

Yes. Right. So basically on the round the round table today, I am the Queen, but also because my name actually is Queen, Rani. So I think, I don't know, we can't call it. I think they're all remarkable. It's probably a toss-up between the Empress of Dowager and Elizabeth I, isn't it? I don't know. I don't want to insult anybody either. Everyone's staring at me and I've got very formidable historians looking at me

and I'm not looking at any of them. Really, we could do like a four hour special. Woman's four hours. OK, right. Well, we've heard about a wide range of traits demonstrated by these different queens through the ages. But at the heart of their power is the issue of primogeniture. The way they obtain power was in spite of them being a woman rather than as their birthright. And their ability to rule not not just reign, was the exception.

However, when our Queen Elizabeth II came to the throne in 1952, she did so only because of the lack of a male heir. Had there been, it would have been a very different story. A male primogenitor was abolished for the British monarchy in 2013 under a reform by the coalition government, which now means firstborn daughters will assume the throne. Let's think about the impact of that now on the future of the monarchy in 2013 under a reform by the coalition government which now means firstborn daughters will assume the throne let's think about the impact of that now on the future of the monarchy and consider the queenship traits of our own queen elizabeth ii in her platinum year um

kate let's think about the amount of misogyny elizabeth ii must have faced during her own reign well it's interesting isn't it because we've looked at a lot of women who've been suffered great misogyny and you wouldn't think it of elizabeth ii, it's interesting, isn't it? Because we've looked at a lot of women who suffered great misogyny and you wouldn't think it of Elizabeth II, but it's true because when she came to the throne in 52, it was a time when working women were not accepted. Only about 1% of women went to university. And particularly if you're a working woman,

you didn't have children. You weren't a mother. Someone like Hilda Harding, who became the first bank manager in 1955, was a single lady. And Elizabeth confounded people because she was a woman, she was young, she had children. So people like such as Churchill, he was saying, she's just

a child. And there was this very subtle sexism towards her. It really was a time when women were supposed to be in the home. So she had her own struggles to prove that a woman could do the job. And she even had to battle to keep the name Windsor because she was expected to take her husband's name as the new royal house. So it's going to be the House of Mountbatten or the House of Edinburgh after Prince Philip's ducal title. And she actually went with Windsor and she was really criticised for that at the time. Tracey, is her greatest legacy the fact that she has secured this change? I do think it is. I mean, she's been the most remarkably dutiful queen.

I think that's the main characteristic of her reign. But this is a huge change in the history of the monarchy. For the first time in more than a thousand years, there is equality in the royal succession. So hurrah for that. Young, what unique traits has the queen displayed separate to the historical queens we've been talking about? Well, I think to me, I mean, she was extremely dutiful.

I think most people, I mean, by consensus, probably respect her. I think that she did a great or she has done or she is doing a great service to Britain, British society and the world. And so I think I have, you know, I can't tell you how great respect I have for her. And she's had to adapt because of the changes she's seen and the way the culture and the country and so much. I think I went up to Oxford in 1950 and I was there when King George VI died I think the monarchy

was not only not held in great respect but there was no particular reason why it should have been because the Duke of Windsor was still very much in people's memories and that was whichever way, whatever side you took, you know, that was a very difficult episode

on the one hand a man is flung off the throne for marrying the woman he loves. On the other hand, a man wants to marry a twice-divorced woman, you know, and so on. But the Queen brought, already married to a very good-looking man. We were all mad about Duke of Edinburgh in those days. Wow, have you seen the Duke? Yeah, he was a hottie. Prince Philip, as he was. And she brought something which shook a bit because Princess Margaret was much more like

the old tradition of princesses. I mean, she was great fun, clever, musical, but wild, you know. She didn't see why she should trim her conduct to anyone, nor did she. But the queen somehow manufactured the kind of... I say manufactured because she constructed a kind of ideal Queen which everybody wanted but didn't know they wanted.

We certainly haven't had. And for that and all the other things, I respect her so much. Yes, absolutely. Alison, do you think she's been influenced by any queens in history? Probably Queen Victoria, more than anyone. Because we're talking about a different era. If you go back to Elizabeth,

you go back to Eleanor. I notice in the Queen's Declaration of Service, which she renewed her declaration this year on the occasion of her birthday, she signed it Your Servant, Elizabeth Hart. She sees herself as the servant of her people. I can't quite imagine Elizabeth I. She said, Your Sovereign Mistress.

And Eleanor of Aquitaine. It was about power. So the queens don't have that kind of power nowadays. And so duty, as you said, is the watchword for the queen. And she herself said at her accession, there was lots of talk of a second Elizabethan age. And she spoke out against that. She said, I don't feel I've got anything in common with my Tudor ancestor,

who was a despot and never left these shores. So she very quickly dismissed any comparisons between the two Elizabeths. At the moment, we've got three men next in line but will the primogeniture about abolition make a difference before the next queen I wonder Why have we got three men surely Princess Charlotte comes in

Her older brother first Charles William and then George So if George's first child is a girl, it would be her. Unless, of course, if George were to abdicate, it would go to Charlotte, not to Louis,

as it would have done before. So that's the difference. But we're very unlikely to see another queen in our lifetimes. And of course, it's fascinating because the queen is at present number three in terms of longest reigning monarchs of sovereign states,

not far off beating number two. But then it's Louis XIV of France, and he did come to the throne as a child, so he's got a head start. Has anyone met the Queen? Yes, very briefly. Absolutely. And what was your impression? I can see why much is written about her wit. I think she's very humorous, very, very sharp and clever. I was very impressed.

I thought she was charming. Yes, absolutely. I saw her, she was distributing decorations and she was really quite old not so long ago. And I was mentally preparing myself for a sort of crone type queen and in came

the strongest looking woman. I find it absolutely extraordinary even now looking at pictures of her you know when she declares she has indispositions, extraordinary strength which I can't help thinking that the inner woman has produced this physical strength. I know it's

not logical. I agree, I agree it's incredible isn't it and it's interesting that as Tracy was saying some of the best monarchs didn't know they were going to be monarchs and she had no idea, she thought she was they thought they were just going to marry her off into an aristocratic marriage. That's what she was expecting and yet a new world at ten

her uncle abdicated and she was the heir to the throne. Is the dialogue with Princess Margaret true? Who's the royal expert? You are, all of you. According to the governess that the Queen, Princess Margaret said, does that mean you're going to be Queen now? And Princess Margaret said, poor you.

That's what the governess who was there, that's what she said in her memoirs, Crawford. Yes, that's where it comes from. Yes, that's where it's from. We accept it. Go on, Kate. I think the Queen comes from a generation that's very stoical. They went through the war.

Look how she's weathered Prince Philip's death. Many people at her age losing a husband, that can be a blow basically. It could have sent her into retirement but no she's bounced back and she's marvellous. I think she has such respect for her. All the troubles in the

family. Yes. It's incredible how much she has to deal with. It's an interesting comparison with Victoria who when Albert died went into retirement for more than a decade the Queen was back at work after four days after Philip's death. For many people the Queen is the monarchy and I'm interested to see what will happen in the future because really I think historians of the future in 100-200 years times might look back on this

period as the high watermark of monarchy in terms of its impact and influence and how much the Queen is discussed all over the world. I was just in France and all the papers, there was pictures of the Queen on the front. I don't know if things will be the same. And of course, many countries will no longer have the Queen of Head of State. We're expecting a lot of change in that respect. The monarchy, I think, will no longer be like it was.

In the Queen, there's a woman who, when you think about it, born not long after the end of World War I, born in 1926, the age of the flapper, lived through almost the entirety of the 20th century. It's been such a privilege to have you all around this round table

and to hear you all talk about these fantastic queens you've inspired us all. Thank you to all of you, Alison Weir, Tracey Borman, Lady Antonia Fraser, Young Chang and Kate Williams. Thank you to all of you, Alison Weir, Tracey Borman, Lady Antonia Fraser, Young Chang and Kate Williams. Thank you to everyone at home for listening.

And I hope you enjoy the rest of this bank holiday weekend. Lastly, though, congratulations from all of us here at Woman's Hour and at Radio 4 to Her Majesty the Queen on her Platinum Jubilee. Thank you. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning

everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.