Woman's Hour - Outliving Mum, Women and Unions

Episode Date: August 30, 2022

How does it feel to reach the age your Mum was when she died? Jo Morris has talked to 3 women who feel a clock ticking. Their stories are all different but they have one thing in common – none of them have felt able to talk about this before. They didn’t want to worry their loved ones or vocalise difficult thoughts.As the cost of living crisis worsens for families across the country, workers have been voting for industrial action over below-inflation pay offers in what many are describing as the “summer of discontent”. They include transport workers, firefighters, doctors, nurses, teachers, postal workers, civil servants, lawyers and British Telecoms engineers. Women are in some of the lowest paid jobs and now make up the majority of trade union members. We speak to Christina McAnea General Secretary of the UK’s largest union - UNISON – and also to Sarah Boston, author of Women Workers and the Trade Unions. We investigate what role women are playing in both the movement and the strikes.Presented by Emma Barnett Producer Beverley Purcell

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. I hope you had a decent bank holiday, if you managed indeed to have a longer weekend, but perhaps you didn't and work dominated. For millions, work is dominating and whether it pays enough or not is front and centre. As we come out of what some are calling a summer of discontent, two of the UK's largest unions are looking to coordinate strike action.

In a moment, I'll talk to the leader of this country's largest union, which is Unison, the first woman, incidentally, to hold that post, about those plans afoot. Her members include teachers, nurses, carers and police officers as well as others. It's also interesting to note that while memberships of unions overall are going down, that's been the trend for some years now, women do now make up the majority of members. Polling has been done about how the public feel about more strikes this autumn and into winter but I'd like to test the temperature with you today. Do you support

the strikes? Last week, it was Royal Mail workers. There have been bin strikes in Scotland. Today, in England and Wales, barristers will shut down the Crown Courts as they begin indefinite strike action over government reforms to legal aid payments. And of course, some of you will be extremely familiar with some of the rail strikes. Are you planning on going on strike? Perhaps it might be, if you are thinking about that, the very first time, or maybe you've been involved in strike actions in the past, or perhaps not related to you at all directly. You have a view and you do not see this as the way forward. I'd like to hear from you. You can text me here at Women's Hour on 84844. The text

will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour. Email me through the Women's Hour website. And you can now send a WhatsApp message or a voice note using the number 03700 100 444. You might wish to use Wi-Fi because data charges could apply.

Do get in touch about that issue and also on today's programme. Anything else you hear, let me tell you a little bit more about what's coming up. Could sexism be leading to women missing out on treatment for heart attacks? The author of a major new study saying this joins me. And who is the far right female leader expected to be the first woman prime minister of Italy? We'll tell you a bit more about her, her party and the policies and perhaps how the Italians are feeling, well at least some of them. Now you may well have heard

the phrase summer of discontent referring to this summer, not going back to the 70s now, referring to workers in many different sectors voting for strike action on the grounds of below inflation pay offers. This of course in the context of a cost of living crisis, which will escalate with rising energy costs this winter. Shortly, I will be talking to the woman who heads up Unison. But now I can speak to the PA Media's industrial correspondent, Alan Jones. Alan, good morning. Hello.

Could you remind us, because it's a busy picture this, which workers voted to strike and are going to be going on strike? Because some we've had already. Yeah, it literally is growing by the day. Most days now I write about workers on strike being balloted for strikes, ballots being announced. You know, it's a massive list. Obviously, you mentioned the rail workers. It kind of started earlier than that. A lot of refuse collection workers were on strike earlier this year. Members of One Union, GMB, have taken over 100 days of strike action across various parts

of the country. Then you had the rail strikes, and now it's really picking up. So yes, you mentioned the barristers. Port workers at Felixstowe were on strike today. BT workers are on strike. Open reach engineers are on strike tomorrow. It's Royal Mail again. I mean, it really is getting to the stage where it's quite difficult to list the more. And there's some massive ones coming up. I mean, you'll be talking to Christina soon. But, you know, I don't use the phrase summer of discontent.

It's a bit of an outdated kind of phrase, really. One of the union leaders described it to me a while ago as a summer of solidarity um which i think explains it much better you know people are now feeling it's not just one group of workers taking action it's almost the case of everyone's facing the same issues which is why i think um pub the public mood is largely with unions now be interesting to see what you what kind of calls you get later. But, you know, I think the mood has changed and this is going to be really big as we come into autumn and possibly into the winter as well. I wanted to ask you about public sentiment. The polling does show a shift and a consistent shift. Tell us a bit more about that and whether, I don't know if the polling does exist on this front. And as you say, it'd be interesting to hear from our listeners.

I hope they'll get in touch. They usually do, about the reality of that, because it might be different when it's rail workers or refuse workers, but then if it starts to hit schools with what's happened, of course, with lockdown and going on with teachers, and then if it also hits hospitals, do we expect to see a difference? I honestly don't think there will be a difference. You know, back in the day when there were rail strikes, for example, commuters, passengers were largely very angry towards the workers for the disruption that was caused. It's been very different this time. You know,

even people waiting in bus queues or not being able to get to work, you know, have largely been supportive. And I think it'll be exactly the same. And I think the difference is millions of people are in the same position. And you talk about public opinion, you know, over 5 million people are in unions affiliated to the TUC. So workers are the public. So, you know, that's why I think there will be support. Obviously, the nurses, I mean, to even to even be talking about nurses and health staff being balloted for industrial action is just unbelievable, really. And there's no question, you know, you look at the support nurses got during during the lockdown, you know, every Thursday, everybody. But, you know, I think people will be amazed that nurses are even being asked to vote on industrial action.

It just shows you the state we've come to, really. The unions, therefore, are asking the right questions, according to a lot of people. But are they going to get the right answers? I suppose what I'm asking you is, do you think they will be effective? Because we've just got a message from Joe who's listening. He says, I completely agree with strike action, even if it seems fairly futile against the oligarchy we live within. Yeah, well, you know, what else do unions do? They defend jobs, pay and conditions. That's what they do. There's no little point in being in a union otherwise.

I mean, what do businesses do? They close down. You've heard about these dire warnings from the hospitality industry. You know, they close down. Unions try to kind of fight back, if you like, and that's exactly what they close down. Unions try to kind of fight back, if you like. And that's exactly what they're doing. I mean, I don't think any any union leader expects to get an 11, 12 percent pay rise. You know, the rate of inflation seems to have gone out of control now, although there have been some quite big pay rises actually in the last few weeks, months. So it's not impossible that those kind of pay rises could come. But, you know, obviously the unions aren't going to sit back and let this happen because as well as the jobs and paying conditions, a lot of their members are leaving for other jobs.

You know, Christina will tell you a lot of health workers are leaving their jobs to go and work in supermarkets, you know, because they'll either get the same money or more money for far less stress. You know, the stories coming through about the stress of working in the NHS are just incredible. And just finally, what's your understanding of the idea of Unite in unison tabling these motions to be debated at next month's Trade Union Congress in Brighton on coordinated strike action? What does that mean? Yeah, I mean, it's not just Unite in unison. The other unions have got similar motions up. I mean, to be honest, this issue is often discussed at the annual TUC Congress. And it would be, I think it'd be almost impossible to coordinate a kind of general strike, if you like. All the unions have different balloting arrangements, different timescales. But it will definitely be discussed. And I think it's more likely there'll be coordinated action

in sectors so all the education unions might well be balloting soon for strikes I think they could coordinate strikes there's lots of different ballots going on in the NHS I think it's possible some kind of action could be coordinated there. Thank you very much for putting us in what sounds like an extremely busy picture Alan Jones Jones, PA Media's industrial correspondent. Well, we know that women are in some of the lowest paid jobs in the UK, but that they actually make up the majority of trade union members. To discuss that now and a lot more, Christina McAnee, General Secretary of the UK's largest union, Unison, is on the line. Good morning. Good morning.

Let me ask you that question directly to you as the leader of Unison. What would that mean to coordinate strike action with Unite? Well, as Alan said, it's not just with Unite, it's with different unions across different sectors. So it's something we do regularly. This isn't just a one-off, but it's obviously got more impetus this time round. And one of the key things we'll be looking to do is you know we're already planning a ballot in for our nhs workers our members who work in the nhs so that's you know the porters the cleaners the nurses uh midwives uh we're working with the royal college of nursing on this we'll be talking to them but we'll also be talking to unite gmb and the i think there's something like 14 unions involved in the NHS. So it's more about

coordinating across sectors and as Alan said, you know, we're one of the big education unions as well. We don't have teachers but we have the teaching assistants, special needs assistants, the admin staff. We'll be working with teaching unions to try and make sure that if we end up having a ballot of our members in those areas, that we will coordinate if there's time limits, times around when we take strike action. That's what we'd be looking for. I was looking back to when you and I last spoke, and I believe it was not long after you were elected at the start of last year. And you talked about your frustration to me and to our listeners of union leaders who, for instance, threatened strikes, made threats, but then didn't follow up on it. You didn't name

names, even though I asked you to at the time. But I think you would probably agree that something seems to have changed. And I wonder for you what it is, because we've just heard, you know, that somebody who covers this beat can almost barely keep up with the number of strikes being voted on at the moment and going ahead. Yeah, I mean, what's changed is the cost of living crisis and that people are actually genuinely on their knees at the moment. We have our own charity in unison called Dare for You and we're getting unprecedented calls for support and help from our own charity never mind what's happening outside and when we survey our members the kind of feedback that we get is astonishing and you know it's not what everyone would think it's you know the low-paid workers it's the cleaners the catering staff we're getting social workers and nurses coming back to

us now saying I don't think we will I don't see how I can feed my family and keep my pay my energy bills over the winter and they're tearing their hair out because they really don't know what to do but these are people who love their job and people who do an essential job so when when they're talking about the only option might be to look at strike action you're talking about people who know that the impact of them coming out on strike is incredibly serious. They don't just inconvenience people. They have a massive impact on people's lives. If you're a nurse in a paediatric ward, if you're a care worker in a home for people with severe learning disabilities,

you know the impact of walking out of that job and what it will have in there. Do you think, just on that point, if I may, because you gave that example, and I know you represent lots of different jobs, do you think there are certain workers who shouldn't be able to go on strike because of the nature of their work? No, I actually don't. And I think it's because most trade unions, well, even legally, we have to ensure that there's an element of minimum supply, minimum cover, life and limb cover, it's called in certain sectors. So, you know, we might have a strike in the ambulance

sector, for example, but not every single ambulance worker would be out on strike at the same time, there would always be an element of minimum cover. Well, isn't this what... Can I just mention... Yes, sorry, go on. I'm just going to say on that, I thought it was quite interesting. Liz Truss talks about bringing in legislation to precisely have minimum staffing levels. All I can say to her is bring it on, Liz, because we've been calling for minimum staffing levels

in some of these sectors for years. But you can't just have minimum staffing levels when people are on strike. You have to have them all year round. that point the government has talked about putting in place measures to stop disruption on july 21st this is about a law change to allow businesses to hire agency workers to minimize disruption when strikes happen a day later you wrote threatening legal action giving the business secretary quasi Kwasi Kwarteng, tipped if Liz Truss is the prime minister to be the next chancellor, 14 days to respond.

What is the latest on that? So we have issued pre-action letters now and we are looking very seriously at taking. So we will be taking a judicial review on this. We've already committed to it. Unless we get the kind of commitments that we expect from the government, we'll be doing that. And the TUC is also looking at taking

some kind of judicial review on this, but we've started the proceedings now. Yes, a statement from the government says on that, so you've started the legal proceedings. We know the pressures of facing people with rising costs, which is why we've continually taken action to help households by phasing in £37 billion worth of support and by increasing the national living wage this year,

the largest rise ever, to help millions of families across the country. The business secretary makes no apology for taking action so that essential services are run as effectively as possible, ensuring the British public do not have to pay the price for what they say is disproportionate strike action. You're not going to agree with that description of it based on what you've already said this morning to me and to all of us. I have to say we are having a lot of messages while we're talking with people in agreement with what you have said,

with people recognising it from their own lives, with people supporting it, planning on going on strike. But there are a few other messages here, just because while you're actually on the line, I think it's important to put to you, if I may, a message here which says, I work in the higher education sector, and while I have a lot of sympathy for lower to middle income workers, significant pay increases in the public sector

will need to be funded by the government. Public sector organisations like the NHS and the education sector cannot afford the increase being asked for by the unions without additional funding. Sarah, who's listening in Devon, what would you say to her? I completely agree. And what we're calling for is additional money to be put in to those essential public services. And I would include the higher education sector in that, although it's a bit of a question that the government's trying to make it seem as if it's more a private sector endeavour at this point in time.

But I totally agree, and we're calling on the government to put money in, and we're actually producing our own... Where's that money coming from? We've come up with suggestions to the government about how you could actually raise that money. Well, where is it going to come from? so there's a number of things you could do so we are suggesting put one percent on um income tax instead of cutting tax actually increase the height it's particularly the higher rate of income tax put one percent on that uh increase that's a pointless suggestion especially

with the front runner right now is it not the. Well, there's probably not much I could say where I would agree with Liz Truss, but it doesn't mean I can't make the case to the public. Well, you can make the case to the public, but it's pointless, which would lead me to, I was looking back at some of the remarks we had when you last came on, which were some people saying they had left your union because, yes, you're

asking the right questions, but you're not that effective. You've only got to look at where pay is at, for instance, for nurses, some of whom you represent. Yeah, we do. And as Alan said, what's our answer to that is we're going to have to take strike action. So we are, we will be balloting in the NHS on this. We're going to be balloting our members.

We have the toughest trade union legislation in Europe. And all we get from this government is an attempt to make it even tougher and almost take away people's right to take strike action. And this is meant to be a democratic country. We're meant to have a government that sees itself as a democratic government, and yet they're still threatening to take away people's right to strike. You can say we're not effective. Actually, we do.

We are effective, Emma. We get lots of money for individuals how are you effective for nurses and when you if you look if you look at nurses i know a lot of nurses listen to this program you know in real terms adjusted for inflation nhs pay remains below where it was in 2010 what have you actually done for for those who've paid their subs so we managed to get pay increases for them we've had we've had offers uh for for those who've paid their subs? So we've managed to get pay increases for them. We've had offers for years now, every single year we get offers. We take strike action when we can. We've managed to get lots of additional money for things like regrading for healthcare assistance.

So we put in a claim, we've had thousands and thousands of pounds put into the pay packets of health care assistants in particular, where we go for regrading claims, which puts between £1,500 and £3,000 into their pay packets. We fight continually on things like safe staffing levels and on health and safety issues. And I think it's easy to just make that kind of blanket dismissal of trade unions. First of all, it's not mine. It's from people who have had subs and have cut that and trying to represent some of the frustration. And you are dealing with a lot of frustration right now, which is clear. And the polling is on your side, actually, at the moment,

with a lot of people in support of what you're doing. You seem like you're asking the right questions. It's just some are concerned you're not the right answer. And that's what I'm trying to test. Well, I don't know what else it can be then, because, I mean, just waiting on this Conservative government to suddenly have a revelation on the road to Damascus is not going to happen with the current people we've got in power

and whoever takes over in December. Well, Keir Starmer doesn't seem too keen on what you're doing either. He's sacking anyone who comes to stand on a picket line with any of your strikers. Well, what Keir does in these parties is entirely up to him. I have to say, I'm not telling him how to maintain discipline within his own party. I want the Labour Party to support our claims for decent pay for workers across this

country. Is it not doing that at the moment? Well, I think he's doing it to an extent. I mean, I think this big fuss about whether Labour politicians stand on a picket line or not, my main concern about it is it's detracting from the main issue, which is not whether it's effective to have a Labour politician on the picket line, but actually let's keep the focus where it is, which is this government's policies, which is not to fund public sector pay, not to fund pay increases for people, not to actually give people... I suppose this is the government we have at the moment.

Kirsten, of course, wants to be in government. How you get him into government and whether you even want him there. Of course, you know, the Labour movement grew out of the trade union movement is also what I'm trying to get your view on as the leader of the largest union in this country. Because Sharon Graham, leader of Unite, which is Labour's biggest union financial backer, is not mincing her words. She says, you know, Parliament's been captured by business and Labour's too scared to say that business is wrong. Do you agree with her?

I think Sharon's entitled to say what she likes. I'm not going to comment on what Sharon says or indeed any other trade union leader says about the Labour Party. We all have our own views. We all have our own content. May I ask for your view? My main concern is I would like to see a Labour Party. We all have our own views. We all have our own contacts. May I ask for your view? My main concern is I would like to see a Labour government. We're a trade union that's affiliated to the Labour Party. I'll do, and my union will do what we can to get a Labour government. But we want a Labour government that supports working people.

And again, we will do everything we can at the Labour Party conference and in the contacts and influence that we have with the Labour Party to make that happen. And with regard to the role women have within unions, of course, you know, some saying there's been a change, now the majority of members are female. And yet, you know, some would also argue that there's a more militant aspect, perhaps, to some of the more male-dominated industries, whether we're talking about refuse workers, dockers at Felixstowe, postal workers with the train strikes. What do you say to that, that perhaps there's more action in the male-dominated parts of it, if I could put it like that,

the concern about that? I don't know why it's a concern. I mean, we're certainly looking to ballot. So we've been balloting our members who work in local government in Scotland and we're taking strike action. We're involved in the action that's taking place in Scotland. We as a union have probably fewer members working in the refuse. We do have them, but not as many as perhaps United or GMB.

But what our plan is next week is we are planning to bring out our school support staff members, which will close schools. So it's not that they're not prepared to do it. It's perhaps that they do jobs where it's not necessarily as visible. There's no rubbish in the streets when you close the schools. It has a massive impact on people's lives. I'm not for a minute suggesting it doesn't. Well, it has a disproportionately large impact, you could argue, on women's lives,

who then have to deal with where the children are. We're not deliberately targeting women. But we are having to take most of our members' work in sectors like care, like NHS, in local government, providing services. And, you know, women do rely more on public services probably than men do. And therefore, if we bring our members out on strike, it may well have that kind of impact. I hope we will talk again. It's been a while since we did, but there's a lot happening and a lot changing.

I do appreciate you making the time this morning. Do come back to Women's Hour soon, please, if you can. Christina McAnee, General Secretary of the UK's largest union, Unison. A message here that Christina might also want to hear. I'm fully in support of strikes. To me, the media is heavily focused on the inconvenience to services. However, they, talking about the media, almost always forget to mention that the workers on strike are giving up their pay at a time when money is so very precious to many. This, to me, signifies workers' desperation and feelings of despair at their current situation.

I recognise this and hope actions and their actions make an impact. I think when you talk about the media collectively, I can understand frustration and a range of media you'd be listening to. I'm also very intrigued to actually hear what people think who are involved with this, but also who are affected by it. So please do keep your messages coming in. Sarah Boston's also on the line, the filmmaker and author of the book Women, Workers and Trade and the Trade Unions, and someone who's also been a trade union member, I believe, since 1967.

Good morning. Good morning. I was starting to get to the role of women and the trade unions there in terms of how effective actions are, where they're taken and how they affect the female members. What's your take on that? Well, I think once women take action, they're very militant. A lot of women are working up fairly isolated roles. I mean, a lot of cleaners, you know, they're working on their own, you know, often at night in buildings. So collective action doesn't come sort of naturally if you're working in an isolated role care workers too you know they're some are working with others in in in homes but um care homes but a lot of working you know going into people's homes and partly you're saying Felix though on the dots they they're all together. They can talk, they can discuss, they can moan together. So there's a collection of working situations which help. But historically, women workers have always been very low paid

and low valued, you know, right back to the early 20th century, 19th century. And unfortunately, that got entrenched both through the trade unions and male attitudes to women. And we still live with that today. Low paid women workers. A lot of them are organised by Christina. Yeah. I mean, I was going to say there's just a horrible irony there, isn't it? If you join a union and then the union itself is sexist or has structures that are in place which do not solve that issue. I mean, just two years ago, the GMB union was deemed to be guilty of bullying, misogyny and cronyism. That's what a report said and talked about sexual

harassment being endemic. It's one of the biggest ones. We've heard it mentioned in connection to some of the strikes going on at the moment. Do you think with two women leading two of the biggest ones. We've heard it mentioned in connection to some of the strikes going on at the moment. Do you think with two women leading two of the biggest unions, I mean, that might be too a simple conclusion, but are you hopeful of change? I think it makes a big difference having women. Well, it depends who the women are. We have Margaret Thatcher and she did absolutely nothing for women. I mean, someone said, you know, she got her job and she pulled the ladder up behind her. She wouldn't have even brought in the Equal Value Amendment

for work of equal value had she not been forced to. There are other women who would beg to differ with that view, but we can't have that debate right now. I'm asking about the unions. I mean, I'm not as Liz Truss is modelling herself for Margaret Thatcher. I don't feel very optimistic.

Sorry, to correct you, so is Rishi Sunak, if I may say. Sorry, as Frances O'Grady, who has been head of the TUC, General Secretary, and I think other women, I think, and particularly women who now, you know, have had families, they worked, you know, in women's jobs and have a much better understanding of what has been, and the trade union movement has been deeply sexist. There's absolutely no question about that. Yes. I mean, what would you say as someone who has been part of a trade union for a long time, and I know you've had your own challenges with that. So this message from Francis who's listening, who says, I think it's unfair that some people can strike and get more pay while others cannot.

I will not get a 4% pay increase this year. And I work very hard for a charity, but I will have to fund public sector pay changes. So, no, I do not support the strikes. Well, I mean, people have a right not to support the strikes, but I think things are so desperate now and people are facing such desperate poverty. And what else are they to do? I mean, one of the problems is from the late 1970s, we've had a cult of individualism that you pull up your own bootstraps, you know,

join with other people to change your life. And I think what people are now realising is that's actually the only way to now try and change your life is working with other people, whether it's through a trade union or other organisations. I mean, after all, the right wing,

you know, businesses, the Confederation of British Industry, they're pretty kind of together. So why shouldn't workers be together and try and fight for better living? I think also there's a dilemma that's coming across in some of the messages.

I thought this one put it very well to also put to you, I have a dilemma that's coming across in some of the messages. I thought this one put it very well to also put to you. I have a dilemma, Emma. While I respect the right to strike, I don't think striking will help at this present time. And if anything, could make things worse for us all. We need some decent leadership from government to help us all get out of this mess. When I became a teacher, I joined a union that was not known for striking. I didn't want to affect the lives of teenagers as mine was during the terrible decade that was the 70s. So, again, it's sort of what I said to Christina about asking the right question, but not perhaps with the right answer.

Some feel. What do you make of that? Well, I think that there are lots of different actions that are needed. I mean, I personally believe a change of government is what's needed. You know, I think strike action kind of will win some people some benefits. You know, I think it's multi-fronted, the changes needed. I also think going back, I think there's a change of attitude. I think it's true that the male, you know, there's a history of the male macho unions. And we still have a bit of that going around. But the history and my history goes back to the early 19th century.

I mean, women can be very militant and very demanding. There's no question, you know. And I know you know those stories and you've told some of them. Sarah Boston, we have to leave it there. Thank you very much for talking to us and putting this into a bit more context of the unions, the history of it and quite a complicated relationship the women have had in the unions. But as you say, when they've gone to strike, there's a history and a tendency of militancy too. I don't want to say there isn't, but it's just what we've seen, I suppose, of late.

I've just voted to strike, reads this message. I'm a health visitor and midwife with 37 years of experience. We've had a huge real-term salary cut since 2010. We took the hit for bankers and we will not take this treatment anymore. You can keep your claps. We want to be paid properly. Talking about the claps during lockdown on people's doorsteps. The rich have benefited obscenely during the last decade and it is sickening.

That's regards from Sarah, or Sarah, I'm sorry, there's no H at the end of that, in solidarity with all other undervalued and underpaid workers. Well, talking about health and the provision of healthcare, a major new study has revealed

that thousands of women who suffered heart attacks have potentially been incorrectly classified and may have missed appropriate treatment on account of simply being a woman. The study, presented at this year's European Society of Cardiology Congress and published in The Lancet, suggests that almost 12,000 women in the UK who should have been identified as being at high risk of death

have been failed in the past 20 years. It looked at over 400,000 heart attack patients across Europe between 2005 and 2017 and was led by Professor Thomas Luscher, consultant cardiologist at the Royal Brompton Hospital in London, who joins me now. Good morning. Good morning. Why was this study conducted? Well, I think increasingly we realize that women and males differ. In the past, the research in cardiovascular medicine has mainly, you know, thought that everybody's alike, but we realize that sex is an important factor in determining the presentation of a patient and its risk. And this has, of course, important impact on how we manage patients. And

if they differ, rather than being equal, we might not do it in a precise manner. And it's not been working for women? Well, it works less for women because women differ. You know, women present later, they have less typical symptoms often maybe even women themselves believe that they're less prone to a heart attack than a man and this these are all features they're also older in general 10 years older than males they have more comorbidities which is obesity particularly high blood pressure, but also diabetes. So they are different and therefore they need to be looked at in a different manner.

And for that purpose, we adapted the risk score that it will fit both for males and for women to make it more precise. So is that immediate? Is that change now? You know, if you're listening to this and you're an older woman, can you feel more confident that the change has been put in place that wasn't there before? Well, we hope certainly that this paper that got a lot of press will change also the mindset of physicians that they consider this in a more proper manner, because what's really concerning, if you look at the numbers, two-thirds get a coronary angiogram when they present with a heart attack, while three-quarters of males do. In the very low-risk patients, of course, that

medical therapy is so often considered, but that means that 10% less invasive treatment. And this particularly is due to the fact that they are considered low to intermediate risk rather than high risk. Because currently we consider an invasive treatment, as we say, that is with a treatment to reopen the artery and put in a stent is mainly focusing on high-risk patients or maybe intermediate-risk patients, less so on low-risk patients. And by classifying women more to the low risk rather than the high risk, about 10% less are treated appropriately, according to our study. Do you think women have died who shouldn't have died?

Excuse me? Do you think female patients have died because of this who shouldn't have died? Well, I wouldn't say that it's just dying. It's also whether you have ongoing chest pain, whether you get heart failure because the pump function of your heart muscle is reduced. Some may have died because of that, but we cannot determine any number here. That would be beyond our study, but certainly some may have really been mistreated. It is going on further, you know, after a heart attack, you need proper medication, for instance, medications like aspirin, other blood thinners, and in particular, cholesterol-lowering drugs, because heart attacks are mainly driven by high cholesterol. And it's really concerning that women get less statins. You know, males get it in 91% of the cases, women in 84%.

And we know that statins markedly alter the outcome of patients so that the outcome is more favorable when you lower your cholesterol as low as possible. I know you're a man of science, you're a man of numbers. You're presenting this data as part of this paper. But can you give me a sense of how much of this is because the modelling has been done on men? And how much of this is because largely until recently, it's been a majority of men treating women and men and having bias

when it comes to treatment? Yeah, I think it's mainly the fact that the modeling has been primarily done on males. And of course, women and males differ. I wouldn't say that male doctors today have a real bias, but I cannot exclude it because that's very difficult to assess for us. It may be that even some doctors feel that women are less likely to have a heart attack than males, because indeed, when we look at the overall population, males make up about two thirds to 70 percent of all heart attacks. Women have a bit less heart attacks than males, but nevertheless, they deserve proper treatment. Well, thank you for bringing what data there is to light.

And of course course there probably will be a change as you say but it might also take a while so it's useful for women to know I suppose when going to see the doctors to see physicians what could be the symptoms and also how to talk about themselves and what they might need to have in terms of treatment. Professor Thomas Lusher, Consultant Cardiologist at the Royal Brompton Hospital in London. Thank you to you. Thank you very much for having me. Now, many of you felt our series on asking women how it feels to reach the age their mum was when she died really struck a chord, and it wasn't something you'd heard often discussed. Here is Claire talking to our reporter, Jo Morris. I wanted to give you the chance to hear this again.

She lost her mum when she was 11, exactly the age her daughter was when this interview was recorded. Lots of memories of summer in the garden. And in my memory, it was always really hot and really sunny. I'm sure that wasn't the case. But playing in the garden and her bringing out, you know, jugs of lemonade and, yeah, having friends round. My parents were quite sociable,

so we used to always have other families round to play or to stay or for dinner. Yeah, and she was always there bringing out drinks, bringing out refreshments, making sure everybody was happy and having a nice time. She was good at refreshments. Yeah, absolutely. Often the way when you're a kid there, isn't it?

Yeah, that's important, right? Remember the biscuits or the drinks. Yeah, absolutely. Often the way when you're a kid there, isn't it? Yeah, that's important, right? Remember the biscuits or the drinks. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, she sounds lovely. What was her name? Gillian. Or Jill to all her friends, yeah.

So have you got any photos? Yes, so I have. So I've got... So this is the last photo album, which doesn't go all the way but um i found this picture of here which was actually a couple of years before she died she was possibly sick at the time but not you know going through treatment well she's with your dad isn't she and we're going for a dance yes yes so they were going to some formal dinner so that was her and her in her posh frock I mean that's a good dress yeah silvery blue ice blue matching eyeshadow yeah yeah totally how old was your mum when she died

so she was 42 and I was 11 when she died. And how old are you now? I am turning 41 in October. How have you been feeling? I guess I have been thinking a lot more about her because I'm now kind of in the same time of my life that she was when she was unwell. So I can relate to her in a way that I never could before. She was sick for a couple of years and she was terminally ill. She was in a hospice for many months. I'm not sure it was potentially around about a year. Did you visit her in the hospice?

Yeah yeah every day after school yeah every day. My dad who worked in London which was a good kind of over an hour-hour commute, used to leave work, gosh, he must have left work at half two or something, to commute back from London to where we lived, pick up me, pick up my brother, which was like, you know, another hour-round trip, and then drive to the hospice, and we'd spend the whole evening there with my mum, do our homework there and have dinner and everything. So what sort of feelings have been bubbling up for you then, Claire?

I'm kind of reliving a few more of the feelings that I had at the time. Yeah, I guess I'm just thinking about it a lot more and feeling sad about what she went through and what my dad went through. And then I look at my daughter and imagine again what me and my brother went through at the time. I guess when I was at school daughter and imagine again what me and my brother went through at the time. I guess when I was at school everything was pretty normal but everything outside of school it was all that you could really think about. You wrote to us in your email, your lovely email, you wrote to us you said you were finding coming up to the impending milestone when your mum died frightening. Yeah there's unnatural, isn't there, about being older than your parents. For me, it seems perfectly rational that I shouldn't live

to an age older than my mum. Throughout my life, when I've made big life choices, I guess at the back of my head, I've been, well, I'm only going to live to 42. And that just sounds really silly, but it's been such a big landmark for my whole life. The fact that I might get to 42 and that just sounds really silly but it's been such a big landmark for my whole life the fact that I might get to 42 and then and then keep living and and live to see an age that my mother never did feels very strange even when I got together with my husband I remember having thoughts back then it would be so selfish to get together with this person who I love because I would be impacting them with all this grief when I die at 42. It was just ridiculous.

Did you tell your husband? No. No. So you never said, I'll marry you, but... No, I don't think so. You better look around after 42. Yeah, exactly. You'll be fine because you'll still be quite young. You'll better look around after 42 exactly you'll be fine because

you'll still be quite young when you'll be a young widower and uh and you'll meet somebody else I know I don't know I think I haven't spoken to him about it because I know it's totally crazy did you try talking to people about it when you were younger or no not really children generally don't know what to say I don't know it felt like a bit of a big secret. I don't think that any of my friends were told the full extent of what was happening or encouraged to talk to me about it. It just felt like not a topic to talk about. How old are your kids now? My daughter is 10, but she's approaching her 11th birthday yes and my son is eight. So your daughter is incredibly close to the age you were? Yes when your mum died. How conscious are you of that? Very much so my daughter looks a lot like I did

at her age so I look at her and I do see myself really silly things, like she won't brush her hair. And we seem to have probably a very normal conversation in the mornings about, please, will you just brush your hair? And then it reminds me that when I was her age, my mum was already in hospital and there was no mother there to brush my hair. Do you know much about your granny?

No, I never met her, no. It's difficult to explain her because I can't explain her as a woman. I can only explain her... As a mum. ..what I knew of her as a mum, yeah, exactly. So I can't really say... Yeah, it's difficult. She is almost the age of the age that her mum died yeah and and i'm the age of when what when her mum died and when she when she i'm her when yeah when her mom i am her when her mum died. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Do you talk about it much? Not really. No. And I was also going to show you this one because it's got me in it. But that's me and my mum. Again, I'm guessing that was probably when she was 40. Probably my age, actually. That's probably 40 and I was probably when she was 40, probably my age actually. That's probably 40 and I was probably nine or something. In the photograph I'm smiling and I guess now when I look at it I realise that I wasn't to know what was coming up.

So it's a bit sad in that respect. It was before my mum got sick and before we knew that she was going to die. It's still so raw, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. So what else have you got here? When we got engaged and started thinking about the wedding, that was one of many big landmark times in my life that made me think a lot about my mum because she wouldn't be there. Again it felt like a happy time in my

life that was a bit tainted with sadness because it made me think a lot more about her and missing her. So quite a few weeks after telling my dad that we were engaged he kind of casually mentioned the fact that he still had my mum's wedding dress and so he literally sent it in normal post not registered not not wrapped in any particular way or whatever the box could have fallen apart it was in the box that it had been put in after their wedding. He hadn't even wrapped it in anything. I think even before I'd seen it, I decided I was going to wear it. Anyway, let me show you this. So that was, that's my mum and dad on their wedding day.

Loving the 70s hair on your dad. Yeah, I know, they have matching hairstyles. And then, so here we go, and then that was me with the same dress. Oh. You could be twins, couldn't you? So what did it feel like when you were wearing her dress? How did you feel? Just really good, really good.

I think it was the closest I could get to feeling like she was involved and that she was there and that she was a part of the day and she was included. That the day had a bit of her personality because it was her dress. Have you still got the dress? Yes, yes, although I've actually packed it away properly and had it vacuum sealed so that my daughter can wear it one day. Wouldn't that be ridiculous?

How do you think you'll spend your birthday? I don't think that I will be making any big celebration of being 42 so no probably just want to spend time with with my family with my kids I guess my 43rd birthday will probably be the strangest the biggest to be on a part of my life that she never lived I think will be difficult. Especially right now, I have a connection with her that I can look at my daughter and imagine how she felt looking at me. When I reach 43 and I'm older than her, then I'm going through a life that she never lived and I will be experiencing things that I can't ever look back and think of her in those moments.

And strangely, she will be forever frozen in her early 40s and I will, fingers crossed, be older than that, which is just quite difficult actually. What does that feel like? I think it just feels like I'm moving further away from her. There's no template, is there? No, no. Do you think in a strange kind of way you'll be able to relax a bit or feel free? I don't think I will do this, but I can imagine people in this situation

might go slightly off the rails. Yeah. Are you sure you're not going to go off the rails I'm pretty certain I'm not an off the rails kind of person big thanks to Claire talking to our reporter Jo Morris there's an article on the Women's Hour website featuring some of the stories from this series and you can listen back to any of them on BBC sounds Now if I say the name Georgia Maloney to you, do you know who I'm talking about? She's expected to become Italy's next Prime Minister in the elections being held next month, which would make her the first woman to hold the job. The far-right leader's motto is God, Family and Country and her party,

the Brothers of Italy, Fratelli d'Italia, is riding high in the polls, capitalising on widespread disillusionment with the status quo, some of which, of course, we were talking about earlier in terms of our country and how people feel equality or a lack of equality really is at the moment. The party has seen its support increase sixfold over the past five years. Let's talk now to The Guardian's Rome correspondent, Angela J. Frieda. Angela, tell us more. Is this on track, as I say, or what are the factors influencing this? Good morning. Yes, according to the current surveys,

we're looking at a coalition of which Brothers of Italy, it's a right-wing coalition, and Brothers of Italy is part of this coalition, and it's the main party in that, the biggest party in that coalition, and we're looking at possibly getting almost 50% of votes. And there's an agreement made between those three parties that whichever party polls the biggest in the votes then they will get a say over who will be the prime minister. And Georgia Maloney has been very open about the fact that it would be an honour for her, she said recently,

to be Italy's first female prime minister. And is this her appeal or is this a situation of also the left not being that well organized the left has been i would say fairly non-existent in the sense that apart from being divided and they haven't been able to muster up a strong enough um opposition i i that's an alliance to counter the growing popularity of the right-wing parties. But also they failed to come up with alternative probatives. And what they're essentially pitching is, as you said, the status quo, that there was no talk of changing a system that has been in place for 20 years that has led to a very stagnant economy

and I've seen people's salaries just haven't increased in 20 years. So they failed to come up with a strong enough opposition and I think that is part of the reason why the right-wing parties are more appealing to voters. Yes, well this party, the Brothers of Italy of which she's the leader, it has an interesting history. It's the descendant of the Italian social

movement. What is that? So the Italian social movement was a post-fascist party set up by a minister who was in Benito Mussolini's government. That was set up in, obviously, after 1946. That then became the...

Giorgia Maloney was... She started out in politics at the age of 15. She's 45 now. And she was in the youth wing of that party, which then morphed into the National Alliance. And then she later founded Brothers of Italy with pretty much the same people that were in the original Italian social movement.

She refutes, though, absolutely refutes the party's links to fascism, doesn't she? Because I've got a clip here of her addressing those claims in a statement released earlier this month. Let's have a listen. With the left in power, the state has turned hostile to citizens and businesses, increasingly violating individual liberties.

Yes, freedom. Freedom is for us the most precious wealth. This compass guides our historical judgment. The Italian right has handed fascism over history for decades now, unambiguously condemning the suppression of democracy and the ignominious anti-Jewish laws. And equally, unambiguous, of course, is our condemnation of Nazism and communism, the latter being the sole totalitarian ideology of the 20th century that still is in power in some countries, surviving its tragic

failures, and that the left has a hard time condemning, perhaps partly because it has received generous founding from the Soviet Union for decades. do you buy that is it is it something that people are buying she obviously feels very passionate about that releasing it in english yeah she does and that video was actually targeted at the foreign press the christian like the way um we were describing the party even far right for her is too much she's been trying to depict herself as a center-right party, very patriotic, conservative, but if you look a bit more deeply in some of the people she has in fairly leadership roles within the party, I think there's been a struggle to say, you know, to compete to their links to that past. You have some people quite high up within the party

who attend events commemorating Mussolini, for example, or you have had, or doing the fascist salute. So I think there are certain symbols within the party. For example, within the party's official label, there's the flame symbol that was part of the Italian social movement. And there were calls recently for her, you know, if you're serious about detaching yourself from its history, then you should remove that from your logo. And she didn't. So I think, yes, there's definitely been a move to remould her party. She says that she removes people who are what has been described as fascist and nostalgic.

But that's not entirely true because there are still people within the party who think along those lines. Yeah, you're a little bit difficult to hear. We apologise for that. But just one more on this, because I was wondering about her, who she is a bit more and who she's appealing to.

Her signature slogan at rallies is, I'm a woman, I'm a mother, I'm Italian, I'm a Christian, and you will not take that away from me. Is she appealing to women and men? And how are they feeling potentially about her becoming the leader? She is, I think, just know, just from, you know, my take from a rally of hers I went to a couple of months ago, there were lots of women there. And equally, there were lots of young people there, men and young women.

And what she's appealing to, she speaks very frankly and people like that and has been relatively consistent in her views um obviously she she has been in opposition so so it's easier possibly you know to have um to be consistent in in opposition um but they like her they like her because you know she's she's one of them she's from a working class uh background um she talks about you know she stands for the workers she's been very very clever at the way she's just she's in it for the long game she's you know this has been carefully planned for the years now and we see other that's reflected in in the way that the party has grown and she goes to places where the left-wing parties don't go.

And she's continuously holding rallies, going and speaking to people. She often says that her place to gauge the pulse of how voters are thinking are at street markets and not at financial markets. You know, and herein lies the difference. The left-wing party, or the main left-wing, centre-left party, the Democratic Party,

it's seen as being very far removed and is essentially very much an elitist type of party. The type of people who support the Democrats are seen as having had an elite education, living in bourgeois areas, whereas Georgia Maloney is appealing to the masses. Angela, Jay Frieda, thank you very much.

The Guardian's Rome correspondent there talking about Georgia Maloney expected to be Italy's next prime minister in the elections next month. Of course, things can change. They often do in politics. But if she is, she would be the first woman

to hold the job and lead Italy. Returning to politics on the home front, let me read you a couple more messages. Many came in when I asked you about your support or lack thereof of the strikes in all sorts of sectors. We were talking, of course, at the beginning to the leader of Unison, Christine McAnee, about the situation. Christina McAnee, we've got a message here. I'm a charge nurse in Edinburgh. I've worked for the NHS for 17 years. I'm a member of the Royal College of Nursing and I will vote to strike once we get the ballot next month. This is in solidarity with other workers and it would be my first time striking myself, says Rachel. A word solidarity that keeps coming up. But another one

here. Hello, Women's Hour. No to strikes. Many deserve a pay rise, but the country is damaged because of the two-year ongoing pandemic. Inflation will skyrocket. The unions are not being very responsible, says Caroline, who's listening this morning. And again, we've got another one here saying that they work in a particular industry. This is Jay's listening in Durham,

where there aren't any unions and that they wish that there were because there's nothing else to do to stop the amount of hours that this individual is working. Thank you so much for your contributions today. As always, I'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. I want to jump up and down and dance and scream. This is a dream come true. I have four wonderful words for you.

Podcast of the year. I'm Nami Lantakombo. And yes, my show has won top prize in the British Podcast Awards. Dear Daughter is podcast of the year 2022. So if you aren't already a regular Dear Daughter listener and want to know more about what all the fuss is about, you know what to do. Just search for Dear Daughter on BBC Sounds.

The whole of season one is available to binge now. Go on, listen to the podcast of the year. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.