Woman's Hour - Owen Paterson MP on the suicide of his wife Rose, Evy Cohen, GeorgiaElliot-Smith and music from Manika Kaur

Episode Date: April 14, 2021

Emma Barnett talks to the former cabinet minister Owen Paterson about the suicide of his wife Rose and the charity he's founded in her memory. Evy Cohen talks about Prince Philip and how his mother Princess Alice saved her family from the Holocaust, Georgia Elliot-Smith asks if we should stop shaming women about waste and recyling and as Sikhs and Hindus prepare to celebrate the festival of Vaisakhi (solar new year) we talk to the singer Manika Kaur.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Lisa Jenkinson Studio Engineer: Joe Yon

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning. On today's programme we hear from Evie Cohen who owes her life to Prince Philip's mother, Princess Alice. It is a remarkable story of bravery, compassion and sisterhood and one the Duke of Edinburgh didn't know himself for a long time. Also as the Sikh and Hindu festival of Vaisakhi, the solar new year, is celebrated, some music from the celebrated artist Manik Akor. But first we're going to talk

about Rose Patterson. In June last year, Rose Patterson, the 63-year-old chairman of Aintree Racecourse, home of the Grand National, and the wife of the Conservative MP and former Cabinet Minister Owen Patterson, took her own life. For him, it came without warning and has left the family, their three children, in anguish and misery. Now 10 months on, he has just launched the Rose Patterson Trust, a charity dedicated to raising money for suicide prevention and suicide bereavement. Owen Patterson joins me now. Good morning, Owen. Good morning, Emma. I thought we could start just there about Rose. Tell us what she was like. Well, she was a wonderful person. We met at Cambridge where we both read history. We got married five years later.

We were married for 40 years. We never did a single thing through that time without consulting the other, apart from this last terrible decision. She was extremely intelligent. She was extremely well-read. She had extraordinarily good taste in pictures. She was a great gardener. She knew a lot about art, a great historian. When we were at Hillsborough as the Secretary of State, we diverted a lot of existing funds to massively improve the gardens and the interior.

She was very organised, very competent. You quite rightly called her chairman of Aintree, which he insisted on. But she made real changes there in her time. So she took on what she inherited was a very successful race that had been restored after the terrible dangers of the 60s and 70s. But she really made it different. She made it very welcoming for non-race goers.

I'm talking on Women's Hour. She really took on the Metropolitan Press, who did a great tea heat narrative every year and sent photographers up to take unhelpful pictures of the Liverpool ladies on Ladies' Day. She made Ladies' Day a real event. She had a huge fashion show. And she took on the press and said,

be fair, be fair to them. And then, of course, she had great empathy and understanding of horses. So she made massive improvements on safety and entry. There were already improvements going on the fences, but the wash down area of its call where horses come in after a fourmile race is unique. She was a huge supporter of my daughter, who in her teenage years was... Well, had an amateur eventing career, which was very successful, actually. She was on the British team three times,

and that meant Rose driving around the horse box, sleeping in the box. But she learnt the lessons from that at Aintree, and the washdown area is absolutely unique. And you saw Rachel on Saturday assiduously pouring water over Manila Times. And of course, she would have been completely thrilled. Well, I was going to say, what would have Rose made

of the first female jockey to win the Grand National? She would have been absolutely thrilled, particularly the manner in which Rachel won the race. She rode the most beautiful race. You look at the replay, she's always in the right position. The horse is always going beautifully for her. She would have been absolutely thrilled. And of course, she launched a thing called the Grand Women's Summit on Ladies' Day,

which went on at the same time as the Passion Show, which is all about promoting women in sport. And my daughter, actually, has launched a prize. There's now a Rose Patterson prize, which is really good for a young woman in Merseyside area who does most to promote sport. And that will be an annual prize in her name. Forgive me, because what I was going to say there is you're describing a hugely accomplished, passionate, committed woman who's very capable in her working life and also in her personal life with the dedication to

your children and to your family. And yet last June, you found yourself actually on the eve of your birthday, starting to wonder what had happened to her and where she was. And I wondered if you could take us back to that moment. Yes, we had absolutely no inkling of this so when i was in london normal practice i'd ring in the mornings uh and i'd ring in the evenings um bluntly they were often quite unsatisfactory calls for both of us was busy or either one rang at the time that didn't suit the other but so i didn't think much of it when i rang that morning i rang two or three times and i left a text message she might well have gone to entry she might have well have been she very busy in the in the garden or down the wood

or gone off to Western Park where previously she had been chairman. Quite a normal way to be busy. By the evening, though, I thought it was odd. I rang, and she was very organised. She'd always come in the evening, have a drink, give her emails. And my second son, who was at home alone with his then-fiancée, now his wife, rang you know some concern said he hadn't seen her all day and he set up a search and which was with the neighbors and couldn't find

her and then i i rang the met from my office in the commons i'd be making completely pointless calls on video calls to other mps in other rooms in the Commons. Total waste of time. So I rang the Met, and they alerted West Mercia Police, who set up a huge search operation. They were absolutely wonderful, West Mercia Police. And my eldest son and I set off. And throughout the whole journey, we were on the phone to Ned, thinking everything was going to happen.

Freak, heart attack, stroke, respiratory collapse, she might have been swimming in the woods, she might have slipped and fallen in the brook or banged her head or a branch might have fallen. We never, ever considered what actually had happened.

And the head policeman came up to me as we came up the drive about half past midnight and said, Mr. Patterson, does your wife suffer from depression? And I was quite offended, actually.

I was quite stuffy. I thought, you know, it's a really hot June day. I said, no, not at from depression? And I was quite offended, actually. I was quite stuffy. I thought, you know, it's a really hot June day. I said, no, not at all. We've no evidence at all. She's on no medication. Please, please, we'll just get out there and try and find her. And he knew exactly what he was looking for. He knew exactly what had happened.

And they found her, I suppose, 3, 4 o'clock. And I still couldn't believe it. I insisted that I went to see her just to see for myself that she really had taken her own life. And there was no sign of a struggle or a fight or there was no sign of a murder or anything horrible. And it was very clear what she had done. And we had absolutely no warning of this how do you begin to to process that owen uh well as you say we're coming up to 10 months and we still ask ourselves i ask myself every other minute how on earth didn't i notice

how on earth can you be married to someone for 40 years without deciding a single thing through that time? She wouldn't do anything without me consulting her. We did everything together. I didn't mention her, but she was very political as well. You know, she helped me in my political career, honestly. Had she been having... I didn't say this would happen. Well, I was going to say. Had she been having any anxiety?

It was, of course, a very strange year with the pandemic. The Grand National had had to be cancelled last year. I know that you and her had had COVID early on in the year. Had she been suffering in any way stress? Yes, I think she had. And I think you're're quite right we both had i had really badly uh but she she never liked being ill i can't remember she even went to bed but i so well i don't remember um but there is evidence from italy that women are disproportionately

um not impacted clinically and a few women go to hospital are really ill with COVID, but they are impacted neurologically. There was a survey last week in The Lancet, quite interesting, about the mental impact. We have the whole family, so that's three couples and me and a grandchild all at home, which is quite a lot to look after. You're quite right, it was a terrible blow, the Grand National being cancelled.

Being chairman of H3, the whole year is focused into three days, then to one day, and then ultimately into nine minutes. So it is quite stressful and an enormous amount of work. It's one of the biggest sporting events in the world. 10 million television audience, it's supposed to be 600 million world audience, and a massive responsibility. So that was a terrible disappointment. And of course in my life there are pressures in my life um she hated hated um and became much more sensitive actually to press criticism

um but we still we knew she was anxious and i always make this distinction i mean i think until this happened i've begun to learn a little about this. And a lot of people have been very, very kind in recent months. I've talked to lots of academics who have been extremely patient with me. I had a sort of caricature idea of depression. Someone who's really miserable, possibly on medication, possibly trying to drink, very lonely. We had none of that, but she was certainly anxious. And my appeal at the moment is if you are feeling anxious, please talk to someone in your family or go to a friendly nurse or go to a doctor or talk to someone at work or ring up. Don't be embarrassed to ring up one of the helplines.

There are wonderful organisations like Samaritans of Mind who are there the whole time. Please don't bottle it up. And cutting the other way, please, also, if you see someone who's looking a bit down the mouth, a bit miserable, not talking, don't just walk straight onto the coffee machine. Talk to them and be aware. The thing that you're saying there, Owen, is you're talking about perhaps where there are signs.

And I suppose what you're saying about Rose and your family and how you've been thinking about this since is there weren't those signs. Or perhaps you've looked back and maybe you see things differently. I don't know. You must have gone over this. I can't imagine how many times. Could you have done something different? Now, that's a really, really important question. My conclusion so far, and I'm very new to this and i'm still learning and i'm blundering around this world um talking to a lot of very very patient people my feeling is we should have much more concerted um awareness training on suicide so if you look at what joe rafty's done in the big merseyside Trust, they have dramatically reduced suicides at Liverpool

prison by making everyone much, much more aware of suicide. If I had had that training, I might just have spotted some signs. And I think everybody in the health service, education, in business, in trade unions, in voluntary organisations, and very much looking at you on the screen, in journalism, should be aware and be more careful in what they say and on the lookout. And then going the other way, I keep saying this thing, it cuts both ways. I do think if we had more of that, those who are feeling really unhappy and really anxious and possibly considering this step by step. And don't forget, in the next 90 minutes, someone will take their own life. That's how bad it is. step. And don't forget, in the next 90 minutes, someone will take their own life.

That's how bad it is. We lose 15 jumbo jets a year to suicide. This is a huge problem. And those people, I would hope, if they were more aware of the consequences of their action, because suicide solves nothing. There is no problem suicide solves. It creates horrendous problems down the road. It's estimated 135 people are affected by suicide. In fact, just to pick you up on that, do you think if Rose knew what it had done to you and your children, she would do it? You know, in that sense of that,

getting that message across to the harm that you cause, not least, of course, to the first victim yourself, but getting that message across to the harm that you cause, not least, of course, to the first victim yourself. But getting that message out is quite key, and somebody is going through that. What is your view of that? Well, yeah, this is the most tricky question of a lot because the last thing I want to seem to be doing is accusing people of doing something really, really wrong. But I do believe if they were more aware of the terrible consequences for many, many years, we are never going to get over this.

I cannot possibly ever get over this. And if you're married to someone for 40 years, I've got to live with this and somehow accommodate it, although I'll be thinking about it every minute for the next however many years I carry on. Do you think about it do you think about it all the time yeah the whole time how every day how on earth didn't i notice and but i do think it is cutting both ways if we were made more aware of this we talked about this more i mean having this conversation now on this program is a really helpful thing for you to do for people to be

aware and to talk about it. I just say, if someone's listening, please go and talk to someone in your family or a doctor. But I do think if we had more of this and it was more openly discussed and we did begin to break this taboo, those who are considering this terrible step might just step back and they might talk.

If Rose had known, and I have to ask myself, why did she turn to someone? Why didn't she mention it to any of us? We're a very close family, as you've probably picked up. But if she'd had some awareness, perhaps it might have had a positive impact. And if we'd had a hint of this, of course, everything would have been different.

Absolutely everything would have been different. Absolutely everything would have been different. It's very striking in terms of the counts of the inquest into her death that she had been making plans, detailed plans about seeing family members, she was looking up Eurostar tickets to visit your daughter, plans for a birthday dinner for you, all of those sorts of things. But she was also visiting sites about suicide.

Yes, we found this very hard to understand. I think we got a little near it. On her desk are the notes and the agenda for an entry meeting that she was going to conduct that morning by phone. She was then going to go to London, meet an aunt of ours who's had a very difficult, lonely time during lockdown. Then she was going to go and buy my birthday dinner with my daughter-in-law and my granddaughter. We're going to have dinner. We're going to have birthday dinner that night. And then she hadn't looked at the Eurostar. She had bought a Eurostar ticket. But the big controversy about buying the ticket was, could she get back for the second weekend? Because I was deemed not to be capable of looking after myself for more than two weekends alone so she bought the eurostar ticket

and was planning to go out to spend a week with my my daughter and her boyfriend and first time since lockdown out in the sun if only she'd just a few more hours that just might have made all the difference against that we suddenly we do know uh that she was looking at these websites i had to be very careful to talk about these in public but there are uh websites on the internet with a very very dangerous beguiling narrative uh and they're they they they draw people in and they give a lot of extraordinarily dangerous, unhelpful information. And part of my role, I see it being so public about this, is also I am an MP. Very graciously, they've made me vice chairman of the all party group on suicide and self-harm.

And I am talking to the government. I've talked to Matt Hancock and Nadine Dorries, the minister responsible, but above all, Caroline Dynich, who's been really good on this, because the online safety bill is going to go through Parliament this year. And although time is short, I really want to make sure there is adequate provision in that bill to cope with some of the material on these websites. And it's got to be much more subtle than, oh, you just banned them. They'll just go underground. What you've got to do is somehow beat technology with technology. But there is no doubt about it that 10 years ago, Rose might have gotten a car and gone to Oserstree and gone to Smith's and said, do you have a book on suicide? A, there wouldn't have been a book.

And someone very nice would have taken it by the hand, gone for a cup of tea, and the whole history would have been different. Now, within minutes, you can be looking in very dangerous detail at this. And I do think, as we all know, it's a completely wonderful, wonderful, wonderful invention, disseminating information, but it can also disseminate very dangerous information. And I think those in charge have a real responsibility. And the government is really taking this on.

And this is a completely all-party issue. I've talked to Richard Bergen, been emailing Richard Bergen. He's had a terrible constituency case. And I want to work together right across all parties on this. It's far too important to be any part of a political thing. And I think MPs are becoming more aware of this. And we do have... Well, I'm sure we'll keep talking as those things progress and i hope

that we we can and i'm just very struck about talking about you if i may just for a moment because i think part of the taboo and breaking the taboo is is to talk about those who are left behind and and how you do feel with that aim that you've got with suicide prevention i mean that's let's call it what it is that's what what people want to prevent, people now like yourself who find yourself in this position. You say you'll never get over it. It did happen and it came to you on your birthday. You know, how are you coping now, Owen Paterson, you yourself?

Badly. There's no point in hiding it. All days are bad, some days are terrible, and some days are really, really terrible. And what might be the All days are bad. Some days are terrible. And some days are really, really terrible. And what might be the happiest days are often the worst. So last 10 days has been frightful. Easter should be a really happy time. But Easter egg hunt with my nearly two-year-old granddaughter was just really sad because Rose wasn't there and i remember the last one where she was there and entry was extraordinarily difficult for us all because it used to be the

peak one of the summits of the year and we were so proud of what she had achieved and we all had a role supporting her you know i'd always drive her in so she had time to make calls on the way etc and the people she talked to and my children all all took the time off it's always blocked off to give her as maximum support and we drove in and the entry team were wonderful from the catering staff to the groundsman to the everybody the chairman you know the managing director they're all incredibly welcoming and they made her a legend which was very very touching um but it was just a it was just very sad and we they made her a legend on the saturday and we left we thought it just was best just to go home and watch the national the first time in many years on the telly which we

did so it's no point hiding it it is completely terrible the intensity of the anguish is almost impossible to imagine people write me wonderful. I've had so many letters. We're getting a lot of messages for you right now while I'm talking to you, I should say. So this is why we've reacted and set up the trust. So we've set up this charity called the Rose Patterson Trust. It's dedicated to firstly suicide prevention and then possibly helping suicide bereavement. We're raising money for all those wonderful little charities and projects which help on that.

And as I've told you, I've been talking to a huge number of people who have been very, very generous about this. But our message is simple. If we could, from this total horror, if we could just help just one family, if we helped just one single family from going through the unimaginable misery we are going through i think we'll have done a little bit of good and that's that's all we're really trying to do and we've had tremendous support you know we we had support before we launched we launched it at entry on saturday um entry race course in the jockey club

were were really marvellous. And we've had public donations and we've had private, you know, public donations. We got match funding too, by the way. If people will give £1 before the end of April, we've got very generous donors who will match that pound up to a value of about £100,000 at the moment. But we might get more. Well, we are getting some incredibly powerful messages in. For instance, if I could just read you this one,

I've just tuned in. I'm 55, happy, successful, loved woman who runs her own business for 35 years with a wonderful family. For the first time in my adult life, I've experienced anxiety about many facets of my life and I spoke to my GP. I'm now talking gently to a therapist.

I cannot reinforce enough listening to your guest, listening to Owen, just how much talking has helped. I have a clear path to unravelling my uncertainty and I feel I can cope again. The most frightening thing it's been was making that call. But I was cared for from the first word spoken. That's an anonymous message and sending you all the best. It's very powerful to hear that.

And that is the power of coming and talking like this. It cannot be easy to talk, even though you are obviously a public speaker of many years, being an MP. Sir Owen Paterson, may I say thank you very much and how sorry we are for you and for your family. Well, Emma, thank you very much. And perhaps we might have done a little bit of good. So if someone is feeling anxious, just talk to a family member, family well Emma thank you very much and perhaps we might have done a little bit of good so if

someone is feeling anxious just talk to a family member talk to a friend go to the doctor ring up Samaritans talk to someone in the shop talk to someone at work but just don't bottle it up and don't don't take this terrible step it solves absolutely nothing and it's permanent and it happens in a rush that's what happened to rose we didn't quite touch on that you get they get this impulse we've found out a little bit about this i've talked to others who very nearly took this step it's like a snake bite one expression or a or a heart attack of the brain and it can have an inner rush and if you haven't talked to someone you may take that terrible step and sadly as i said in the next 90 minutes someone will will that person it'd be marvelous that person to listen

to this program doesn't take the step and just goes and has a word because the consequences are totally horrendous well we will make sure this this interview is fully available online on bbc sounds so people can listen back to it but it's a very sobering thought that in the next 90 minutes, as the statistics show, someone will be in that position that you describe and take their own life. As your wife did, Rose Patterson, to remember her 63-year-old chairman of Aintree Racecourse, much-loved wife and mother of three,

and grandma, as you said, Owen Patterson. Thank you so much for talking to us. And for details of the Rose Patterson Trust, you so much for talking to us. And for details of the Rose Patterson Trust, you can go to our website, the Woman's Hour website, and also there'll be details there of action lines should you need help or you're affected by anything that you've heard. Now to a story you may never have heard, and it was one actually that the Duke of Edinburgh himself didn't know for many years, because as the world remembers Prince Philip ahead of his funeral on Saturday we're joined by someone who has an incredible link to one of the key women

in his life his mother Princess Alice. In fact my next guest Evie Cohen a Jewish artist living in rural France owes her life to her through an act of courage and sisterhood. I spoke to Evie Cohen yesterday and she told me the story of how Princess Alice had given refuge to her Jewish grandmother and aunt and later an uncle in Athens during World War II and hid them in the attic of her house. It was a story Prince Philip had been unaware of and an act of bravery that led to Princess Alice being recognised at Yad Vashem, the Holocaust memorial in Jerusalem in 1994 as one of the righteous among the nations, non-Jewish individuals honoured for risking their lives to aid Jews during the

Holocaust, a ceremony that the Duke attended and spoke at. At that point, Athens was occupied by the Italians and the Germans. Evie's family were already in hiding. They had had previous connections with the Greek royals into which Princess Alice was married. Evie's father and her uncles wanted to leave Greece to join the Greek government in exile in Cairo, but first had to find a new safe place in Athens for his mother and sister. Evie Cohen explains how her father decided to ask for Prince Alice's help there and then. He thought that all the royals had left Greece. And by coincidence, one day he sees a royal car with a royal flag driving in Athens. So he inquired and he was told that Princess Alice had remained.

So he says that after a sleepless night trying to find a solution, how they would go about finding a new hiding place. He said, well, it's very simple. The ladies are going to go and stay with the princess and we will leave for Cairo, except for the youngest brother, who at that time was in another hiding place and they thought that he was well taken care of. And so he united the family and he said,

this is what we're going to do. They thought he was crazy and he himself thought he was crazy. And it was a crazy idea. Although my grandfather had been an important figure in a way, the princess would not even know of that or remember of it. So they started thinking, how are we going to contact the princess? And so they found a lady and they thought that they knew that she played cards with the princess.

They contacted her. She said, OK, I will be the go-between. I will tell you in three days' time. So your father basically imagines this is what's the best solution. It's one thing to imagine it. It's another thing to make it happen. And through a series of kind of almost chance meetings, the appeal is made. And even if that's not, you know, remarkable enough, it could all

fail because it relied on Princess Alice saying yes to doing something incredibly dangerous and hiding Jewish people where she was living. Absolutely. But she says yes, this is what's remarkable. Now, if I may, I want to say it because it's the direct words of what happened. No, of course. So this is your father's account? Yes. In short, Mrs. Delignani was on the palace grounds. And an hour later, we were informed that Princess Alice would be more than happy to take in my mother and sister. Princess Alice couldn't believe how coincidental it was. She had given a negative response to the lady they had contacted, fearing that she might not keep the secret. The princess did not know how to get in contact

with us to let us know of her true intentions. Wow. So she sort of did a double bluff. She didn't want to say yes because she didn't want her to know, but she was always going to do it. Yeah, this is it. I mean, this is absolutely fascinating, how things in life can just connect. And the reality, from what I understand, and from what Prince Philip did say also at the commemoration in 1994.

Commemorating what she had done in Israel at Yad Vashem. There was a family need that appealed to her and she could do something about it. So she did. So the same evening they were taken in and she told her staff, according to my father, there were 17 persons with her. And she said, we are going to have two ladies who are under German threat.

She was the nanny of her children. And so she expected from all her staff that they would be kind and loyal, of course. And they were to do everything possible to help them during this hard period. So she didn't say, of course, that they were Jewish or anything? She didn't have to say it, but she said it in a way, because when she says that there are people who are under threat, one understands what it means. And my uncle, Michel, the youngest one who had not gone to Cairo,

had also been hidden in the palace. And they didn't dare, the ladies did not dare tell Princess Alice that he was also in the palace. And this is a nice little story. And when they told her at the end of the war, she said, but why? Why didn't you tell us? Of course, I mean, there was no problem with that. So this is the way she was. Very, very, very generous. And she would often go up into their apartment, which was on the third floor of the residency, and have long afternoon discussions in French, because she spoke French, and my grandmother spoke French, of course, as well as my aunt. And they would have many discussions on religion, on faith. She was very inclined with faith.

Of course, there was a kind of, I imagine, a sort of sisterhood amongst your grandma and also your aunt and her to have had this kind of female bond as she hid them. Yes, it was. Unfortunately, I have a lot of documentation on my father's activities, et cetera, in that period. But I know that they kept in contact, especially with my aunt, for a long time. After the war, the princess would come to their small apartment in Athens that my family had. But I know that there had been exchanges in writing, but unfortunately, I don't have any of those. It is a remarkable thing, truly remarkable that she did this. And it's said that Prince Philip

didn't know. Yes, that's what he says. And yes, she thought it was normal. She just thought it was an act of help. You have to also know that she came back to Athens to be with her people. And she was working for the Red Cross and the Swedish Cross. She was very humanitarian. Yes. And we should say that it's been said by Dr. Anna Whitelock, who's a royal historian and expert, that when the German generals came around looking for Jewish people in hiding, Alice pretended she couldn't understand them because she was deaf and that they thought she was a silly old woman and left her in peace.

Yes. But she could have faced death herself. She could have. Clearly she could have. People may not know this, but she's buried in Jerusalem and has this extraordinary honour and extraordinary place in terms of the commemoration that you're talking about at Yad Vashem. Talk to us about that and what that was like for your family. She was buried in the Mount of Olives in a Russian church where her aunt was buried and she wished that. And my parents heard about it in 88 when she had just

been buried there. And that's how it came about that it was the right time to do the necessary documentation so that Yed Vashem, which is the institute that not only commemorates the Holocaust, but all the righteous among the nations that have done extraordinary things to save Jews. So my father made the report, but did not send it off immediately because he felt that the political time had not come yet so that the recognition could be accepted. My father died in December 90, not having sent the report. And the first thing that my mother did was to send the report over to Yed Vashem. That was early 91. And it took another two years for the recognition to be done in England in 93. And then in 94, we went for that ceremony.

My mother was alive then. And my uncle Michel, the youngest one, Prince Philip, came with his sister, who was still alive by then. And he does say exactly what you have mentioned, that they didn't really know of the story. And for her, it was a natural thing to do. Did you meet Prince Philip on that day? Yes, but I didn't really talk with him. I was in the background at that time and my mother was still alive. And so it was my uncle and my

mother that did obviously talk. We made a speech and of course, Prince Philip made a speech. And what was it like for your family to talk with him, to meet with him? What was their impression of him at this quite remarkable ceremony? What I can say is that it was very emotional for my mother because she was transmitting what her husband had been telling her. And I think they spoke in English, actually. I hadn't realised at the time that Prince Philip was speaking so beautiful French. And I can't say anything that it was very emotional from every side. Obviously, we wanted and we still do to express our eternal gratitude to Princess Alice and to her descendants. I wouldn't be alive today if it hadn't been for her. Clearly, as 95% of the Jews of Greece were massacred.

So it is very important. It's important from many points of view. It's important to recognise that there are some persons that, to the risk of their own lives, would do such acts of courage and be really what I would say human. Evie Cohen there, who owes her life to Prince Philip's mother with that remarkable link in the story of the bravery of women. The Duke of Edinburgh's funeral is on Saturday. A lot of you have been getting in touch on text and on email and across social media

in response to my interview just then before with Owen Paterson, the former cabinet minister, the Conservative MP, talking about Rose Paterson, his wife of 40 years who took her own life last summer, last June. He wants to try and have this conversation, however difficult he finds it and his family are finding it, their three children, because he wants to end the taboo, as he puts it, around this and try and actually stop somebody in that moment from doing what Rose did. And as you heard described very clearly by him, they didn't have any clues. They didn't know that there was anything that would have led to this. And they've been trying to figure this out ever since. A message here, an anonymous one, as many of them are,

and don't forget that you don't always have to share your details. Listen to Owen Pattinson's interview today, whose wife Rose took her own life. His plea for those considering such action comes from a heartfelt place. However, as someone who tried to take their own life a few years ago and spent some time in a psychiatric hospital, I can say that at the point of suicide, you are not thinking in such ways. I look back with wonder and despair at how distorted my thinking had become so that I actually thought my family would be better off without me.

And I'm an ex-psychiatric nurse. You, I live with the pain that you've caused others forever. But when you're depressed, you're not really you. Incredible insight there. Thank you so much for taking the time to send that message one here again anonymous about somebody's husband my

husband took his life a week before my 35th birthday in 1999 on the day our exchange contracts arrived to move to our new home to start a family he was just 42 and a successful novelist i was working as a presenter for BBC television at the time. Like Owen's experience, I had no inkling. We were married for eight years, together for 12. The shock was immense. I want to say to Owen that with time, it does get easier to bear, but those of us who are left behind are marked by the experience.

I'm currently writing a book on losing a partner to suicide. I'd like to say a huge well done to Owen Paterson for starting the charity. We do need to give suicide far more attention and talk more openly about it. Another one here, I lost my son to suicide five years ago. I grieve for him every day. If we see people alone, don't be afraid to ask, are you feeling suicidal? It is my eternal regret that I didn't ask that question. Papyrus does really good work to prevent suicide among young people. Thank you very much for that message.

And as we did flag, if you do need support, those numbers that you could require on our website via our action line and also the Rose Patterson Trust, those details for that are all on the Woman's Hour website. Do get in touch with us with anything that you hear. And if you did miss any part of that interview or any of today's programme, you can catch up in full on BBC Sounds. Now, Manika Kaur is one of the world's leading interpreters of sacred Sikh kirtan music and a popular female Sikh solo artist. The Sikh and Hindu festival of Vaisakhi, Solar New Year, started yesterday. There's usually a big event in Trafalgar Square that Manika gives a speech at and performs at, though, of course, that's not happening this year.

But Manika joins us now. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you so much. Tell us about this festival. So every year on April 13th, Vaisakhi is a celebration of a new year. It's when the sun changes its position from the southern to northern hemisphere during the spring equinox. And it's symbolic for many Indian communities of a new beginning, new life, new hopes and aspirations. So the day is spent with prayers and then celebration, festivals, Bhangra, lots and lots of food.

I was going to say music, of course, as well. You know, that's a big part of it, isn't it? And you're a leading contemporary performer of Sikh kirtan music. We are going to hear some in just a moment, but how would you describe it? Manika's line's just frozen, I think, for a moment. Tell you what while we're sorting that out let's have a listen to some music a new album of Manika's called Ache which means oneness. Let's hear a clip. Your lighting nights Your lighting nights Your lighting nights Your lighting nights

Your lighting nights Your lighting nights Your lighting nights Your lighting nights Ilay na hayt Ilay na hayt Vaheguru Vaheguru Vaheguru Vaheguru Vaheguru Vaheguru Vaheguru Vaheguru

Vaheguru from Manika Kaur. It's called Aik, which means oneness. Some slight issues for which we apologise with Manika's line there, but she was just about to talk a bit more about kirtan music, which I know that she describes and has described previously as love letters to God, passages from Sikh holy scriptures,

which also includes passages from non-Sikhs, Hindus and Muslims. And as she puts it, it's a way to connect to your divine essence, move from ego to a place of compassion and love. And this is her contribution to it. So Manika Kaur there taking us a little bit into what would normally be happening and what people are perhaps trying to do around this festival of Vaisakhi, the Sikh and Hindu festival, the solar new year, which she was just starting to explain to us. Of course, if you're celebrating, do get in touch with us.

Let us know what you're up to. 84844, that's the number that you need to text. Get in touch with us on social media. Send us some pictures, perhaps, at BBC Women's Hour. And also maybe your response to the music around that and let us know how it made you feel. And thank you to Manuka Kaur for letting us to play that out. That's all for today's Woman's Hour.

Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

Available now.