Woman's Hour - Paloma Faith, Heath Minister Nadine Dorries, Sexual harassment in the workplace, No-fault divorce

Episode Date: June 12, 2021

Paloma Faith on combining motherhood with her music as well as her reaction to the OFSTED survey that sexual harassment of schoolchildren has become normalised in schools. Her new single Monster is about her relationship with her career.What's the best way to stamp out sexual harassment in the workplace? We discuss with Stella Chandler, Director of Development at Focal Point Training which runs in person workplace behavioural courses that includes sexual harassment, and Deeba Syed, a lawyer who set up and manages the sexual harassment at work advice line at Rights of Women. The new figurehead known as Nannie is now being installed on the famous ship, the Cutty Sark: the tea clipper that resides in a specially designed dry dock in Greenwich next to the river Thames in London. Why is the figurehead of a ship often a woman? Louise Macfarlane is senior curator at the Cutty Sark.The Health Minister Nadine Dorries on the public call for evidence for England's first women's health strategy. The new no-fault divorce law has been delayed in England until 2022. What can make divorce less complicated and confrontational? We hear from Ellie, who is in the middle of a break-up, Kate Daly who runs Amicable, an online divorce service, and divorce lawyer Ayesha Vardag. What's so special about the relationship between gay men and their straight female best friends? In celebration of Pride Month, we discuss with Matt Cain, author and ambassador of Manchester Pride, and Jill Nalder, best friend of Russell T Davies, and the inspiration for Jill Baxter in the C4 drama 'It's a Sin'.Presenter: Chloe Tilley Producer : Dianne McGregor

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour. Today, the Health Minister Nadine Dorries on the government's public call for evidence for England's first women's health strategy. How best to stamp out sexual harassment in the workplace, how couples wanting a no-fault divorce will have to wait a few months longer, and celebrating the relationship between gay men and their female BFF. We don't judge gay boys.

And it's a non-judgmental relationship, definitely. Although, you know, if you're going out with your gay friends for a night out, you're going to be judged on whether you've dressed up and you're looking good. Jill Nelder, best friend of Russell T Davies, an inspiration for Jill Baxter in the Channel 4 drama It's A Sin. Now, Paloma Faith is an award-winning singer with four critically acclaimed albums featuring songs such as Better Than This to Only Love Can Hurt Like This.

Her latest single is Monster from the album Intimate Things. You're fighting the war you don't understand This here ain't for everyone, everyone Intimate Things. Put it down to madness and you call me crazy. Too late to save me. Now I'm a monster, created a monster. Rattling my balls, dancing with stars. But I'm a monster, so hear me how I'm coming. Now, of course, you may also know her from her role as a judge on TV talent show The Voice UK, as well as The Voice Kids, and as an actor in films such as St Trinian's. But her toughest role to date? Continuing to climb the career ladder now that she's a mum of two daughters, the youngest being born in February

this year. This was the subject of her recent BBC documentary, As I Am, that pulled no punches in which she described wanting to be split in two. I feel quite a lot of pressure, things like, you know, trying to get my body back. And I hate when people say bounce back because you're like, what? It's awful. No one bounces back. I've got a job on Wednesday for an acting role that I'm starting and I've sort of decided that it would be much easier to do if I stopped breastfeeding so I slowly tapered it off I've got mastitis anyway oh that's the worst I feel like going to pick up my antibiotics after this interview good luck with that but I mean it's all just like um yeah like a sort of the public version and then

the private and actually last night I was out for the first time in probably two years in a restaurant al fresco and uh a woman came over to me and was like, I just wanted to say thank you because it is really hard. And I was like, we don't get enough sympathy. Everyone says, and I've had this said to me by press, like it's not really an angle, you know, talking about how hard it is to be a working mother because everyone does it. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't talk about it. And my kind of thing is like it's not to

like go around moaning but it's to say like can we just hi can we just be acknowledged for how difficult this is and your specific industry though i mean you have to go on tour that's how it that's how the money's made these days as opposed to selling records and that is grueling at the best of times but just after having a baby and also in your documentary, this was after your first child was born. And, you know, you can see how hard this is. And, of course, people could presume with the great spoils that come with being a pop star, being a musician,

that because you can afford a nanny, that you would want to leave the nanny maybe to do everything or you could leave the nanny to do everything. But actually what comes across in that film is the huge amount of guilt that you feel and wanting to do it you don't want to because you don't want your kid to like it sounds really awful but you don't want them to like love the nanny more than they love you or no or the nanny know your child more than you know you want to be able to say oh she likes this or she does this not the

other way around and have you have you worried about have you worried about that because you obviously do have to leave your child you know with with someone else a lot of the time because you're quite often now you know we're lucky I'm lucky that my partner is evolved enough to think he should do it so when I leave my kids now it's with their dad which is a lot more than I saw mine so I think that's actually really good for them and I think they're lucky as girls to spend a lot of time with their father and learning, you know, the sensitivity of men that they can then hopefully grow to expect. Yeah. I think also what was very striking to see, and I thought this was brilliant that this was in the documentary,

was that it was discussed with all the people who run your tour, whether it's your accountant, your manager, who was going to pay for the childcare. And I thought that was fascinating that it seemed like the people putting you on tour, the industry, didn't want to pay for that it seemed like the people putting you on tour, the industry, didn't want to pay for that, that that should be something you should pay for. And yet at the same time, you can't go and do your job. And then obviously everybody listening to this will not be able to relate to the tour element, but they'll be able to relate to,

you've got to sort out the childcare to be able to do your job. It wasn't that I expected them to pay for it. It was just asking them to take the hit on their commission them to pay for it. It was just asking them to take the hit on their commission after I'd paid for it. But that looked like quite an awkward conversation is what I'm trying to say. And it was a reality of you trying to still do what you committed to do, but you needed some help.

Yeah, it's uncomfortable. And I think it's a really grey area. There are assets to employing women who have had kids and still in careers because usually well generally they're much more efficient for example I've got a PA who's just come back off maternity leave and I just am like I really want to keep you on because I know that you're going to do everything really fast and thoroughly because that's what happens when you've got kids, because you automatically split into 10 million people. And I think, you know, like my accountant, who you see in the documentary saying, I think you'll find it's money well spent. That's because he purposefully does employ women with kids because he finds them more efficient.

But I just hadn't seen that before. And I thought, you know, as we hear more about the music industry and whether there is this potential reckoning in it and the Me Too movement as well and how that's impacted the music industry, I just wonder, we've heard awful stories of female artists being pressured not to have a child in the first place or not to have the second child. Well, I think it's quite exciting and interesting, I found.

I don't know if you noticed but a lot of females in the music business went and got pregnant in lockdown and loads of women have been having babies that you'd never think maybe felt they couldn't before and obviously they probably were so overworked I'd imagine before that they had time to conceive them in lockdown although on that point and I did really want to ask you about this is it it's it's the case I believe that your second child it took six rounds of IVF but I've done six rounds for both for both okay this one was four rounds which for the first one which is which is a lot, you know, to work through that and cope with the disappointment each time. Yeah. Yeah. But also I found the disappointment slightly more bearable because I was so busy.

But I think that the reason why it actually worked this time was because it was during lockdown and I just wasn't doing much. So I think that really helped. And I think a lot of women like myself who are working all hours at God's End probably do find it harder to conceive. We're not really meant to be doing that, to try and conceive babies. It's not conducive to, you know. Well, yeah, and yet at the same time, it's a great distraction, I suppose, when it's not happening. Speaking from personal also having gone through ivf paloma i wanted to ask you also there's a report out from the education watchdog offstead which has found that sexual

harassment of school girls is so common that girls don't report it anymore the pressure to share nude images of themselves girls being rated on whatsapp and online, and also being touched up in the corridors is a normal part of school, which is all intensified by social media. What do you make of the portrait that's been painted of how it is for schoolgirls? I think it's tragic, but I was one of them schoolgirls. And I'd say that that did happen. I've never met a woman in my lifetime that's not experienced some form of sexual harassment or assault, not a single one. And that sort of unfortunately became, I think, for a lot of us,

something that we accepted as part and parcel of being a woman and something that shouldn accepted as part and parcel of being a woman and something that shouldn't be accepted and i think um yeah i feel sad for the new generation i hope that change can be made now that these um statistics have been on earth i mean we need to protect our daughters but we also need to in my view i need to equip them with the knowledge and understanding that actually that isn't OK and it's not right. And I think that that's to do with communicating to them of their value. I know that when I grew up, you know, my mum's a feminist. I did know what was appropriate and what wasn't appropriate.

And I think that was down to my mum's brilliant parenting, like from a feminist angle, saying you've got to value yourself. And of course, when you're a teenager, there were moments where I'd sort of lost sight of it or whatever. But just knowing in the back of your mind that certain things are not acceptable or important. And they obviously don't all know that. I've always thought that one of the flaws of our education system has been to do with life skills and actually like teaching young people at a really crucial age things about, you know, I don't think they should just be taught sex education. I think they should be taught emotional education, like, you know, what's involved in falling in love and interacting and

all of those things and how we integrate with each other and what's, you know, inappropriate or appropriate behaviour. Well, that was Paloma Faith there. And Sally tweets saying, I could listen to Paloma Faith all day, always straight talking, hugely inspiring, not to mention incredibly creative. And if you want to get in touch with us, do tweet us at BBC Woman's Hour, or you can contact us via our website. Now, as we've heard, sexual harassment in schools has become so normalised, many don't report it. What will happen when the younger generation move into the workplace? How likely are they to report it then? Well, you may remember last week we heard

from the former Deputy Prime Minister, Lord Heseltine, who was unhappy about being forced now, as a member of the House of Lords, to attend an online course that covered the issue of sexual harassment and inappropriate behaviour between colleagues. It was entitled Valuing Everyone. He felt it wouldn't stop the behaviour of those who had been behaving inappropriately. So what would work? Well, Emma spoke to Deba Saeed, who is a lawyer specialising in sexual harassment. She set up and manages the Sexual Harassment at Work Advice phone line for the charity Rights of Women. Also with her, Stella Chandler, who is Director of Development at Focal Point Training. It runs in-person workplace behavioural courses

that includes sexual harassment. Any training provided absolutely needs to be part of a number of activities taking place. For example, whenever we're working with a client, we talk right at the beginning and how they're going to position it, how they're going to invite people to any sessions, the key role that senior managers must take in role modelling, how everything must be followed up. And yes, there do need to be consequences. And you do need confident HR and senior people that point, we need to roll back and think, what could we have done to make sure that people understand what's appropriate and what's not? The key challenge

we see and the difference is, is absolutely getting people to open up discussions and talk together about what's appropriate and what's not. But what about the idea that those who are going to do it and behave badly, behave inappropriately, will do it anyway, and they can't see the issue? I know that I mentioned one of your stories, you're talking to a group of people who are very senior, and one of them said, thought nothing of saying your boobs look nice in that top. I mean, can you make somebody who thinks that's a compliment, see that that isn't appropriate for the workplace? Tell us about that, or those sorts of situations. I do like to say I do know that person realised what they hadn't really thought about was the impact that had.

He had thought it was a bit of a joke. He had assumed that the person receiving it would feel complimented and flattered. Compliments are hugely important to us all and our self-esteem. However, it's how they're said and done. And we actually explored the differences in doing that. And I do know that that particular person sought the other person out, has apologised and has appreciated that actually, no, ran the other way. That was not an appropriate or a funny thing to say to that person. And that was through doing a course?

Yes, it was. It was a session I ran myself. Let me just bring in Debra at this point. I know that you set up your phone line not that long ago. Tell us about what you hear from women. Yeah, absolutely. So we are a frontline service in all of this. And what we see are women who come forward are put in this extraordinarily

difficult position when they've been harassed by somebody, usually in a position of authority, usually with a position of power over them. They don't know what to do. Should they come forward? Should they not come forward? And the women who do come forward overwhelmingly are treated with nothing but hostility and suspicion. And what we hear is really serious on the line. Nearly half of all our callers last year told us that they had been sexually assaulted in the workplace. And two thirds of those women as well told us that after they had been harassed, they experienced retaliatory behaviour from the perpetrator and the organisation. So they're put in this extremely difficult position

and I think we are still labouring under this delusion. I think what was quite interesting about what Michael Hesseltine said was this is merely a fact of women just popping along to HR and explaining to them what happened and HR are going to fix it and make it all better when that is not what we see in practice at all. Usually when women come forward to HR, that is when the problems really begin for them. What do you advise to people who don't want to go through the legal side of this

or not necessarily even want to go to HR? Well, I have to be really honest with the women who call us about what the risk they are taking in coming forward. Because in my experience, if you do come forward, there is a very high likely possibility that you are going to be leaving your job, either unwillingly or willingly, either through a war of attrition, where the employer just simply wears you down, because they have more resources, they have access to sophisticated lawyers, and they can intimidate you into dropping your claim or dropping your allegations. We don't talk about this very often, but lots of women just simply just leave the organisation because they can't work there with the perpetrator. It's simply

untenable for them to carry on. But we don't collect any numbers on this. There's no data. We don't really know how many women have left an organisation because there is somebody unpleasant making it difficult for them to work there. Or they have the option of coming forward. And this is why I think there is a really important place for training, because it's not just telling people not to sexually harass people, although that is part of it. But HR departments and employers need to be educated about how they respond to when a woman comes forward, because we see victim blaming is a huge, huge, huge problem. We see really inappropriate questions when women are coming forward, you know, questions, what were you wearing at the time? How much were you drinking? Have you had relationships with other people in

the office? Really sort of inappropriate stuff. But other kind of sexual harassment myths which perpetuate things like that sexual harassment. These are isolated incidences that these are accidental, that these aren't intentional when that's not what we see on the front line at all. I was on the phone to a woman yesterday telling me that this person in her workplace has been touching her up at any opportunity he could for the last six months. And he's doing this behind closed doors. He's not stupid. He knows how to get away with this. And that's the reality of the situation. But she is in this really difficult position where she knows that she has no you know quote-unquote hard evidence she doesn't have it on cctv she doesn't have an ability to prove what has happened so she feels like she can't come forward because there's a real risk that she won't be believed

and because she won't be believed she doesn't want to go through a traumatic experience like um having her whole character assassinated and having all the work and everything she's ever done called into question over these allegations. Let me come back to Stella. We've got this message here which says, I'm beginning to think we need to focus much more on strengthening ourselves and getting much better at standing up for ourselves as well as learning and practising better responses and put downs and feeling we have a right to stand up for ourselves. Stella, what do you make of that? Taking into account what Deba was saying, it's not about victim blaming here. It's not about, you know, not saying that there isn't a place for training, especially for those who have to respond,

but also very mindful of what Deba just said, that people are leaving, you know, because they can't do anything about this. What do you make of that as part of your training, perhaps, or how people could respond? We run sessions specifically toward speaking up. And we really do talk to people about having the confidence to do that. We also in our training, one of the summary things really we want people to go away from anything thinking about is that they have two responsibilities. The first responsibility is to reflect and constantly reflect on their own behaviour and be thinking about whether it's appropriate or not, but also take away another responsibility. And that is to make sure that if they do feel uncomfortable, they think about how they can move that forward. And it can go from themselves being able to talk to the person and deal with

it. So just between the two, but there's a whole range of reasons why they may not want to do that. But what we do say to them is they must think about somebody else they can talk to that will help them move the situation forward. And that could be a colleague. It could be a speak up champion. We train all sorts of roles in all of this. But somebody that they can go to and say blind manager, an HR person, but they feel then that they've got some support in doing it. As an HR manager, when anybody came to me and telling me about something like this, the first thing I asked them was how they wanted to move it forward. Because you used to work in the Met, we should say as well. But carry on. And one of the things I was always pleased about is they felt they could to move it forward. Because you used to work in the Met, we should say as well, but carry on. And one of the things I was always pleased about is they felt they could deal with it themselves.

And I would coach them to have that conversation and make sure afterwards I'd spoken to them and check everything was still going well. But there are, as I say, a whole range of things they can do. We want them to know that it will be taken seriously. And again, that comes back to what I said last time. When we are working with clients, it's making them see, no, it's not the training alone, it's a package of support

and that must be ongoing. It must become absolutely part of how that organisation operates. Deba, do you have a view on this in the sense of whether this is the right way to be going? Because it sounds like it's definitely a part of the armour. I don't agree, actually. I don't think that is the solution. I think what we need to do is put less emphasis on the women and the victims and less of the burden on them and shift it onto employers, put that on them. And so not that much has changed since the Me Too movement. You know, the laws are the same. Apart from there was a consultation that the government undertook saying that they would introduce a new duty on employers to take preventative steps to stop harassment happening in the first place, like training, like policies. At the moment, all of this stuff is just optional. So you need to put more... Just to say, can I say on that, we went to the government on that. And the government's equality hub, they're in charge of the current consultation looking into

this exactly as you say. And they say we consulted to ensure that laws to protect people from sexual harassment at work are operating effectively. And the response to this will be published as soon as it's feasible. Yes. And what that proposed was putting obligations on employers to do more, so that they have to introduce this training. You know, you can even go further than that. What we really need to start thinking about is different options for women so that they have safe ways to report. So, for example, making anonymous reporting more of the norm so that you would at least get a scale of the true scale of the problem because right now women don't want to take all that burden and pressure all the professional and personal risk

that comes with that but also things like exploring fines so if there are organizations which have serious problems with harassment and discrimination which there are they should face big fines from organizations like the equality and human rights that's So that's where we want to get to? There's no magic solution here. There's no silver bullet. It's got to be a combination of things. But I think right now there is just too much put on the woman. Well, that was Deba Saeed and Stella Chandler. Now we received this message. It's anonymous, and you'll understand why. As a naive 16-year-old school leaver, I started work in a large, successful company. I worked on a switchboard in a small, school leaver, I started work in a large, successful company.

I worked on a switchboard in a small, secluded room and had to work late each evening after the main workforce had left. I was regularly assaulted by a director who would stand behind me and fondle my breasts. I had no idea what to do and thought it was my fault. I was petrified. I had to keep answering calls and carry on as normal. I have never been able to talk about it to anyone and never told a soul. I'm now 64. It feels good to send this email and to face it at last. Well, thank you so much for trusting us with your story. Now, the new figurehead known as Nanny is now being installed on the famous ship Cutty Sark,

the tea clipper that resides in a specially designed dry dock in Greenwich next to the River Thames in London. Figureheads are the carved wooden sculptures that decorate the prows of sailing ships. So was that for luck? Was it for protection? Louise McFarlane, senior curator at the Cutty Sark. Yes, that's right. They weren't exclusively female. I mean, in the 19th century when Cutty Sark? Yes, that's right. They weren't exclusively female. I mean, in the 19th century when Cutty Sark was built, there was certainly a proliferation of female figureheads, but they weren't all female. So they could be men, they could be mythical figures, they could be animals, they could be anything. And figureheads, we know, have been on ships for thousands of years. We

don't know the precise original reason why they were put on ships, but really what they came to do was embody the spirit of a ship and also protect the ship. So of course, the sea is a perilous place and a figurehead was there to protect its charges from possible danger. Now Nanny, as she's known, I didn't realise she's actually wearing the Cutty Sark. I didn't know what this was. Just explain it to us. That's right. Yes. Yes. So the name comes from the Robert Burns poem, the narrative poem Tam O'Shanter. So the owner of Cutty Sark was a very proud Scotsman. He named most of his ships after Scottish places or other Robert Burns poems and the poem itself concerns Tam he's a rather drunk farmer who's on his way home from the market and he encounters a coven of witches as you do

and among the witches is this young and beautiful witch all the other ones are old and haggard and as you might imagine witches to be but but nanny is young and beautiful and she's wearing a short revealing uh nightdress uh known as a cutty sark in old scots uh and tam and in his excitement exclaims and we'll done cutty sark thus revealing the fact that he's actually been spying on them uh none too happy about it. The witches actually give chase. Now, Tam, on his trusty horse, Maggie, he sets out for a river because he knows, and I must confess, I didn't know this until I started in this job, witches can't cross running water. So he headed for a river and he just about managed to escape Nanny's clutches before she grabbed the tail from Mags. So Nanny wearing her short and revealing Cutty Sark, holding a horse's tail, became Cutty Sark's figurehead.

How are they going to get her up there? I'm guessing she's pretty huge and pretty heavy. Pretty huge and pretty heavy, absolutely, yes. A crane is going to be involved. It's going to take a number of days. We expect it to be completed next week. For those who've actually visited the ship, you'll know that there's actually a glass canopy beneath where the figurehead will be. So you have to get the old one down and then get the new one up without causing

any damage to that glass. So it's going to take some time. But next week, our new nanny should be in pride of place. And briefly, if you would, why was she beautiful, then scowling and now beautiful again? Well, the original design was by Hercules Linton. Hercules Linton designed Cutty Stark as well. And in keeping with Robert Burns' poem, he designed a very beautiful, elegant, but slightly cross witch. The designers of the figurehead that's being removed,

they designed this and built it in the 1950s. They actually didn't have access to this design. This design has only been uncovered since the 1950s. That was Louise McFarlane, Senior Curator at the Cutty Sark. Still to come on the programme, celebrating the relationship between gay men and their female BFF. What is it about the relationship that makes it so special? And remember, you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day. If you can't join us live at 10 o'clock

during the week, you can subscribe to the daily podcast for free via the Woman's Hour website. Now, women's health has long been the poor relation when it comes to medical understanding, funding and research, to say the least. The government says it wants to change that. And earlier this year announced the establishment of England's first women's health strategy, which will look at women's health across our lifespans. The priorities of that strategy will be shaped, they say,

by the results of a public call for evidence which closes tomorrow. So have you given evidence? But after centuries of, as the Health Secretary Matt Hancock put it, living with a health and care system that is mostly designed by men for men, so what sort of confidence should we have in this strategy bringing about meaningful change? Nadine Dorries is the Health Minister with specific responsibility

for women's health. Does she think the NHS system is sexist? Well, I think there have been unconscious biases against women since the beginning of time. I think it's always been an issue. I'm going back to, you know, the whole connection between hysterectomy and hysteria and women's wandering wombs and and I think that's that's historically genetically just passed through the ages and therefore I think sexist is a strong word to use particularly about a system which has a predominant number of female doctors and nurses working within it but I think the system gets into the people who are working within the system and they become part of that system, possibly sometimes unknowingly. So busy. You Mesh and Patterson, in so many areas, maternity inquiries, always women at the bottom of an inquiry or something that's going wrong

within the NHS, or very often women. So the system, not the people, but the system is sexist? I think it is. I think it is to a degree. I think it's a system which, unknowingly maybe, but we've got to that situation. You know, women tell me so often the core theme of most of the inquiries and the reports that we have and the recommendations are women are not listened to. And I've experienced that myself. I know how it happens I know how the system shuts down a complaint shuts down a woman who may have issues with either treatment or surgery or a wrong

diagnosis I've seen it happen but you've also you know you've also got to make sure those services are available there is a tendency to feel like when you announce this sort of thing, well, the Conservatives have just taken power. In fact, we've had you in charge for more than a decade. And Dame Professor Leslie Regan, former chair of the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, has told this programme that since 2012, 40% cuts to the funding of Public Health England, which commissions most women's wellbeing, sexual and reproductive health services, that women have been disproportionately worse off and disadvantaged by those conservative cuts. And now you want a women's health strategy. So there are two strategies running, Emma.

One is the sexual and reproductive health strategy, which will report after the women's health strategy, which is happening at the same time. So that is being addressed, the sexual and reproductive health strategy. What, the cuts? Are you going to reinstate money? So in terms of funding, Emma, I'm here to talk about the women's health strategy and the reason why we...

I'm here to talk about women's health, though, and that feeds into it. Absolutely, absolutely. But what we need to... Where we are at this point now in the call for evidence, the first government ever to do this, is to find out what the issues are, the details of the issues. We have the reports about mesh, sodium valproate, primidose, breast surgeons, maternity issues, but they aren't just it. We know there are huge issues around menopause, treatment, lack of menopause.

But haven't you got to take responsibility for cutting money? Do you know what Dame responsibility for cutting money? Do you know what Dame Leslie also told us? She said that it's very difficult for women to access help at the moment with fertility, contraception, periods and menopause. This is the most senior obstetrician and gynaecologist in the country who's the author of the Better for Women Health Report in 2019. These are cuts that your government did and created. So I refute that,

Emma, because the evidence that we're receiving from women is not that they can't access services. What they are telling us is that when they do access services, which are there, there is, all women can access contraceptive help via their GPs and all the services that you've listed. But our issue is deeper than that. It's more serious than that. It's when women are in services, when they're being seen, that they aren't listened to and they don't get the treatment they want, not because it isn't available, because a doctor will prescribe them a course of antidepressants rather than a course of HRT. You cannot deny what one of the most senior doctors has said.

You also cannot deny this fact of the most senior doctors has said. You also cannot deny this fact that there have been cuts. Moreover, can you not deny between 2013 and 2018, there was a 14% real-term reduction in local authority spending on sexual health, depended on most by women. At the same time as those cuts, there was an increase in demand by 13%. You've told me you've only heard from 100,000 women or so. That's not necessarily going to tell you if they went somewhere, couldn't get a service, is it? Well, what I do know, so sexual and reproductive health isn't in my portfolio, Emma,

but what I would say is it is not in my experience, and I haven't heard from the minister whose portfolio, who is responsible for sexual and reproductive health, that they're running the strategy, they're doing their own call for responsible for sexual and reproductive health, that they're running the strategy. They're doing their own call for evidence on sexual and reproductive health because we want to know what the problems are, because we want to address them. But my point is, do you not need to take responsibility?

We want to address what those issues are. But you can't do that without more money. Because women are our priority, because male is the default in health. I understand that. And so we want women to be our priority. We know that here on Women's Hour. In our spades, you really are preaching to the converted, but you still need to accept those cuts to services.

Are you not accepting that as reality, that there were funding cuts? On sexual and reproductive health, I don't have the data, Emma, so I can't argue the point with you because I don't have the data. It isn't my portfolio. But what I do know is that in women's health.

So it's women's well-being as well. I'm not just talking about sexual reproductive health. That is in your portfolio. So you don't know if there were cuts to it. Patient safety is in my portfolio. And my experience is that maternity services in terms of accessing services to mental health and to the other issues that women have. It is there. They access the services via their GP referrals. But the issues are not getting into the services, but what happens to them when they get there. OK, let's talk about that. Let's pick up on that. If I can just make the point, I can't even count the number of times women have told me that rather than being prescribed HRT they're given antidepressants. And exactly that point is coming in I promise you on all of these messages

to do with HRT so many of them say that you're bang on the money with that I was interested in the money provided but let's talk about what you've moved on to which is about women in a GP setting or another doctor setting being believed and getting the right treatment. At the end of last year, responding to a parliamentary report into endometriosis, you said this, I think women actually have a responsibility when they go to the GP's practice not to take no for an answer, not to be fobbed off by a doctor. They do not push back. They do not challenge. They are not confident enough to raise an issue. So they're very easily dismissed. Do you think it's women's fault, Nadine Dorries, if they can't get diagnosed or receive poor health care?

No, but you've taken that quote out of a wider response, Emma. But no, I don't. But my point was to women, don't be fobbed off. It happened to me, Emma. I was fobbbed off don't be fobbed off i i believe that gps and those many women feel that a doctor is so much more qualified so much more knowledgeable therefore he must be right and he knows what he's talking about and i must be i must be wrong being here and coming here all the time i want women to be more confident when they walk into and not take no for an answer and if you're still in pain and if you're not being taken seriously and if your gp isn't referring you on to a consultant treatment then then ask for it demand it because it is your right to do so and i think what happens when women go into a doctor's practice that is patient shaming

it really is how on earth are you sorry how on earth are you meant to know? I think it's empowering. I think it's patient empowering for women to go into a doctor's and know that they aren't there to be fobbed off, that they are there to be referred for services. How on earth are you meant to know that you've got a condition if you can't get a diagnosis? And I'll tell you something else.

It is the least likely moment in your life when you're sat in a doctor's surgery in pain that you have the strength physically to do what you're talking about. So, Emma, not all conditions involve pain. No, no, but you mentioned pain. You mentioned pain. Yeah, I did.

All right, so I'm going to go with that. So if you go into a doctor's and you're perimenopausal and he's given you antidepressants and those antidepressants are making no difference whatsoever. And he puts you on another course of antidepressants because he thinks it's not the right treatment. Or he refers you for a course of CBT and it makes no difference. Women feel, and I hear this from women all the time, they don't like to challenge because they feel that the doctor must be doing the right thing. It's not always the case. Women can stand up and say, look, these antidepressants are making no difference. Could it be the menopause? Could it be something else? Because, you know, we all know doctors are very busy people and we're focusing on primary care settings. They have so much time

that they spend with each patient. They don't always see, the patient doesn't always see the same doctor every time. What I'm trying to do is empower women to have the confidence to go into a doctor's and challenge what the doctor is saying to them. And because that's, I honestly believe that we need to take that responsibility to push back. And that was the Health Minister, Nadine Dorries. Well, we have had a massive response

to our Women's Health Programme on Wednesday. You can listen back to it via BBC Sounds. You've got until tomorrow, of course, to give evidence. There's a link to the survey on the Woman's Hour website. In England and Wales, if couples want a no-fault divorce, they're going to have to wait even longer. It was hoped the new legislation would be in place this autumn, but now the Divorce, Dissolution and Separation Act 2020 is scheduled for next April.

The delay is to give the government time to update the digital service. Now, under the current system, one partner has to effectively take blame for the breakdown of the marriage or wait until they've been separated for two years. Well, the change in the law is an attempt to make the process less acrimonious, although some campaigners believe the reforms don't go far enough. Well, we heard from Ellie, who is in the middle of divorcing her husband of 15 years, Kate Daly, who runs Amicable, an online divorce service, and she believes divorces should not go through the justice system, and also Aisha Vardag.

She is a high-profile divorce lawyer and founder of Vardag. She is a high profile divorce lawyer and founder of Vardags. So I began by speaking to Ellie and I asked her, how is she feeling about this delay? I'm feeling frustrated and quite disappointed, I suppose, is what I would say. I think I am divorcing my husband now, or we are getting divorced, I think is more appropriate way of putting it. So, you know, we yes of course um so you know we've been together for 20 years we've been married for 15 we have four amazing children we never or I never we never went into this thinking we're going to have four kids and then we're going to get divorced you know um so it's been I'm sure I don't need to explain a very painful and difficult

process um and we decided to separate in March of last year. And we agreed, you know, I felt the no-fault divorce was on the way. We'd agreed we'd wait for it. And then gradually, it became more and more obvious that it wasn't coming. And I think, you know, practically speaking, mentally, emotionally, and practically, it feels right to divorce. The option of waiting for two years just feels painful for everyone involved really um didn't feel right so we we did make the decision to get divorced based on the system where one of us petitions and you know we luckily got to a point where we we knew that that's what was going to happen and and one of us petitions the other one

agreed they wouldn't contest um but it's it's a you know, it feels to me very archaic and outdated. And, you know, I have been shocked, actually, perhaps I was a little naive, but I've been shocked by the amount of stigma that still surrounds divorce. Really? Yeah, I have, you know, there's still a real blame culture. And I think, you know, no fault divorce is so important in addressing that. Everyone that I speak to, it's been fascinating, wants to know whose fault it is. And actually what's happened is, you know, we met when we were in our early 20s. We married in our mid 20s. We're now in our 40s. We've grown apart. You know, it's that old cliche, but it's a cliche for a reason the marriage is no longer working so we've had to make the difficult decision to end the marriage because I think

that's the right thing to do for everyone involved um but yeah it seems that people still want to blame someone and that to me seems shocking and I feel very strongly that actually divorce isn't just an ending it is an ending obviously and there's a grieving process that comes with that for everybody involved but it's also a beginning you know for me it's the beginning of a new relationship with my ex-husband we will always be in each other's lives because we have four amazing children together um and you know I want to do that in a way that feels constructive it feels very difficult I think to exit in marriage with dignity and respect. That's what I absolutely want to do. So it's a shame that we've had to go down this route.

Well, let me bring in Aisha and Kate because I think it's important for people to understand. And thank you for eloquently putting forward what you're going through right now, which must be incredibly difficult. Aisha, it sounds like people are feeling trapped. Some people are feeling trapped in marriages because of this delay I mean I've always been lobbying so hard for no-fault divorce to come in and from the very

beginning so I'm for me it's a huge relief that this culture of blame is at least starting to to be reduced and this kind of poison, this rottenness in the heart of our family justice system that was all about couples slinging mud at each other and blaming each other is now going to go. But the way we've dealt with it in the past, I can completely understand couples waiting because now this is in prospect. But the way we've dealt with this in the past when couples have wanted to get out of marriages without apportioning blame, is what's called a weak petition. So you agree, you'll use some very weak form of words like, you became very distant and cold, or increasingly didn't spend time at home, or was rude about my mother. You find something that's small, that isn't too cruel.

But even that is still distressing and it puts the blame on somebody. Whereas in most cases, it really genuinely is, as Ellie says, two people who've just changed in different ways and arrived at a point that they'd rather part and change the nature of their relationship. Kate, come in on this, because I know that your service works in presenting a different route to divorce. Yes, that's right. I mean, we uniquely offer a couple's service. So if you go to a lawyer, they're only allowed to represent one of you. So instantly you're setting up two sides. Whereas our service works with couples where they've agreed that marriage is broken down, don't want to make a fight of it. And therefore we help them as with what Aisha was saying, with a form of words that they can agree on the petition.

And we work with both people together to help the emotional journey alongside the legal process so our focus is very much more on the sorts of things that Ellie was saying where you know it is an awful situation that people find themselves in they are struggling with guilt with shame and we're helping them navigate that emotional journey so that they can part on good terms because most people or many people have children when they're divorcing and as Ellie said you're not ending the relationship you're changing the relationship so a big focus for us is trying to help people create that co-parenting relationship and we're very lucky because we've been part of a founding group called the parenting promise that prioritizes the needs of children when people are getting divorced so it's coming at it from a much more amicable approach and as Aisha was saying there are ways of writing we call

ourselves specialists in mild behavior petitions so if people listening do find themselves trapped in this situation because of the delay in the no fault legislation, then we can help and we do offer free telephone advice. So I do encourage people to get in touch if they're concerned about being stuck. I was talking to a lady the other day and she was in tears just saying that she and her husband had agreed that the marriage had broken down. They'd agreed they wanted to divorce. They were going to wait for no fault divorce because they felt that that would be the best route for them. But actually, the day-to-day experience of people living in a marriage that has broken down is just so awful. She was just sobbing, saying, I don't want my children to suffer because I can't cope any longer being in this situation. And, you know, it's that,

it's that situation that of course, we understand the government has got to get the system right. But the individual stories that you hear, the pain, the emotional pain of being stuck in that situation is just quite awful. So there is a different way around it. Ellie, for you, I mean, some people may say, you know, don't you want a lawyer battling for you to make sure that you get what you're owed? Or is the problem, the terminology around divorce that people use words like battle? I think it is naturally still seen as a process that is adversarial. And I have had so many people say that to me, you know, protect yourself. And I know that my ex-partner has too, you know, it's been very difficult to kind of tune those voices out. It's a very frightening process. Even as a grown woman,

you know, you're entering into a process you don't really understand. It feels like all the power kind of lies with the legal system. And it is a bit scary. And I do think, oh my God, do I need a lawyer? But actually, I've chosen not to go down that route because I don't want it to be adversarial. The system seems to me to be a little bit geared towards weaponising heartbreak. That's kind of how I see it. It's very much, you know, you're going through a really painful, raw time. And I don't think it has to be that way. And that's why Amical has been so good, because actually what it does is it encourages communication between the two of you. You rather than talking through lawyers you know you're talking with your divorce coach you're talking together all the time and that's so important

in creating that relationship going forward as well well let me put that point to Aisha weaponizing heartbreak do you think sometimes lawyers can be guilty of pushing things harder to make it more adversarial than actually it maybe needs to be. Yes, I absolutely agree with that. That's something that I feel actually quite strongly about. And I see it all the time and people moving, you know, lawyers moving into quite personal attacks on the other party, sort of revving their own client up. So as, indeed, to weaponise their fear, to weaponise their heartbreak, it's a very good expression. And I do think that services like this, and indeed all mediation services, including the court organised mediation service, whereby before you start financial proceedings, you actually have to go through a mediation service, unless it's not appropriate

to do so, which hopefully will result in an agreement which you can then put through the court. So that is very much built into the court process, and also their private mediation services as well. And I think Amical sounds like it's doing great, great work for cases where that works. And it's wonderful wonderful there should be more of this. However there are cases where it doesn't work to do this. One of the situations is where it might be quite a straightforward case, you know what the assets are, you know what the issues are but both parties have got a very different perspective on it and just can't agree. Then you can't just go on chatting about it forever and however good your mediator is they're not going to get you to a result,

to agree by waving a magic wand. Although if they're very skilled, of course they can help. And that was Aisha Vardag, who is a divorce lawyer and founder of Vardags. We also heard from Kate Daly, who runs Amicable, which is an online divorce service, and Ellie, who is getting divorced from her husband of 15 years. Well, Alison has tweeted,

the system sets you up against each other, even when you actually get on. And like Ellie, you intend to co-parent into the future. Why can't everything be based on the separation date? And from that point, get on with the divorce paperwork as quickly as possible. Well, you can find extra advice on our website. Just look for our article,

How to End a Relationship Well. Four experts share their tips for an amicable split, practically, legally, financially and, of course, emotionally. Now, June is Pride Month and the author, Matt Cain, also an ambassador for Manchester Pride, wants to celebrate and reflect on the relationship between gay men and their straight female best friends. From reality stars like Jenny and Lee on Gogglebox, to Will and Grace, to the designer Halston and Liza Minnelli. What is it about the dynamics of these relationships that often makes

them so special? Well, Matt's latest book, The Secret Life of Albert Entwistle, explores the theme of a gay man looking for love, who along the way establishes a number of new friendships, the majority of them with women. As does Jill Nelda, best friend of Russell T Davies and inspiration for Jill Baxter in Channel 4's drama It's a Sin. Well, Emma spoke to both of them. So why did Matt want to celebrate what he calls this special relationship? Well, it's interesting because I actually started off,

I wanted to open up a period of gay history. I had this older gay man looking for the love of his life who he hadn't seen for 50 years. And I wanted to contrast how awful things were for gay men then and how wonderful they are now. And as he was going on his journey and making all these friendships, I realised there had to be with straight women. For me, in my life, the people who stood up for me the earliest and the longest and, you know,

with the most fearsomeness were my straight female allies. And if I wanted to celebrate how far we've come as a society, then what I had to do was pay tribute to these women who'd done that and make them feel proud of their role in making my world a better place and making the world a better place for gay men in general. Jill, do you think about that in terms of the relationships you formed and the role you played? I love that he says that it's, you know, us making the lives of gay men better. And I think I would say from my own point of view, that gay men have definitely made my life better I've had some fantastic relations I think it's a very special bond between us you know and I think it it works both ways it's it's a very close friendship based

on a lot of different things you know I've gay friends that are literally I consider my family so it's it's a two-way thing for me definitely I mean I will say here at this point you know massively generalizing for a lot of people but equally and you're basing this on your own it's a two-way thing for me definitely. I mean I will say here at this point you know massively generalising for a lot of people but equally and you're basing this on your own experiences aren't you as well Matt and Jill's also talking from her experience and I what do you think it is about is there a freedom in that relationship? I think there's two things from my point of view when I was growing up at school and straight boys there was this kind of fermenting of toxic masculinity and how boys should behave and play and explore who they were going to be as men. I didn't fit into that. They

didn't want me. The girls didn't mind if I was femme or girly. They didn't see that as a bad thing or an insult. And they were the ones who stood up for me in the playground, the first ones I came out to, the ones I felt I could trust, before I felt I could open up to other gay men because I'd been conditioned to be frightened of them. And what I've found in adulthood is straight women often say to me that they feel, if they're talking about more transgressive sexual desires or more adventurous sexual experiences, if they're with their straight partner or their straight female friends or their mum or their sisters,

they have to temper what they're saying. A lot of women who are sexually expressive and forthright, who've been slot shamed, what they find generally, again, we are talking in generalisations, amongst gay men is a lack of judgement. We've been ostracised for our sexuality and sexual practices. We've been made outsiders.

We're much, much less likely to judge them. And I think there is a freeing thing there. Sometimes female friends have said to me when we're talking about this kind of issue, they've said, oh, I'm with the gays now. I can relax. Do you know what I mean? Jill, is that how you felt?

That you wasn't just I'm sure about that but god I'd love to say I was sexually progressive but I think for me it's been more like a deep sort of friendships really some somewhere you can you can relate to I'm not judged we don't judge gay boys and and it's a non-judgmental relationship definitely although you know if you're going out your gay friends for a night out you're going to be judged on whether you've dressed up and you're looking good yes well i do want to get to that because i wonder what you make of that matt around you know obviously men gay men straight men whatever can be capable of of misogyny as well

and holding women to some of the standards jill that women don't want to be held to and i wonder what you had to say about that because that's the not so special part potentially of this. Yep, absolutely. I totally agree with that. We are not immune to conditioning. And I certainly think that when we are made to feel ashamed of our own effeminacy or feminine traits,

that lots of gay men go through a phase of wanting to be hyper masculine and react against that and sometimes that can result in misogyny but I do think that the special relationship the special bond always always wins out you know when I was when I started writing I was constantly getting my work rejected from publishers saying women won't be interested in stories about gay characters and I kept thinking, yes, they will. Don't patronise those women who've been so important in my life. You know, and I feel like now, you know, the publishing industry finally,

although interestingly in my publisher, it's a team of women who backed my book and want to get it out there to a big audience. And they are waking up to this special bond. To that bond. You say that's a special relationship we should focus on not the anglo-american one yes absolutely Lila has just texted in on that point I was just making Jill nothing about the misogyny and exploitation of female friendship that prevailed on the gay scene at that time then writing from her own experience

there Lila and others will be able to relate to that. What do you make of that, Jill? What do I make of the misogyny? Yeah, there has been, it's not all rosy. No, I guess it's not all rosy. I mean, there's always going to be very, there's going to be, again, a generalisation, you know, because sometimes I think gay men have women sort of as iconic figures in the world and maybe in their lives. And it's a source of stability sometimes in what especially years ago was a little bit of a secretive world and everything like that. So obviously, I've not come across

a huge amount of misogyny in my circle, but that's not to say that it's not out there. And women are always going to be judged. I mean, and I guess that's something that is improving as the years go by. But I think that gay men have expectations of women as well, have expectations of their women friends. Matt, a final word from you about how these friendships endure or perhaps how they've changed over the years. Does it become more difficult as life gets on? I know Jill's found them lifelong companions.

How's it been for you? I do know some gay men who, when their female friends settle down, have babies, did feel excluded from that. And sometimes the special bond would weaken around that period. It didn't for me. I'm very lucky. But I do think, actually, that as gay men are allowed and we're legally allowed to get married and we're now having our own children in greater numbers we feel less excluded and look I'm getting married

in December and I couldn't imagine doing that without walking down the aisle with my best three female friends as my maids of honour. That was the author Matt Cain we also heard there from Jill Nalda who is the inspiration for Jill Baxter in the Channel 4 drama It's a Sin. Thanks for your company today. Do remember you can join Emma on Monday morning. Make sure you have a great weekend. Welcome to Descendants,

the series which looks into our lives and our past and asks something pretty simple. How close are each of our lives to the legacy of Britain's role in slavery? And who does that mean our lives are linked to? Narrated by me, Yersa Daly Ward, we hear from those who have found themselves connected to each other through this history.

Whoever you are, wherever you are in Britain, the chances are this touches your life somewhere, somehow. Descendants from BBC Radio 4. Listen now on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

Available now.