Woman's Hour - Paloma Faith, Leader interview: Rhun Ap Iorwerth, Parents with learning difficulties

Episode Date: June 12, 2024

Paloma Faith is an award-winning singer, songwriter and actor. She has released six albums, including her most recent The Glorification of Sadness, received a BRIT Award, been a judge on The Voice UK as well as an actor in films such as St Trinian’s and TV’s series Pennyworth. She is also the mother of two daughters. She joins Clare to discuss her book – MILF - in which she delves into the issues that face women today from puberty and sexual awakenings, to battling through the expectations of patriarchy and the Supermum myth.In the first of our Woman’s Hour interviews with the leaders of the main political parties in the run-up to the General Election, Clare McDonnell is joined by Rhun ap Iorwerth, who leads Plaid Cymru, or the Party of Wales.A new study in England says that a third of cases where newborns are at risk of being taken into care involve parents who have learning disabilities or learning difficulties. The research – which was commissioned by the Nuffield Family Justice Observatory – also finds that in over 80% of these cases, the parents’ learning disabilities or difficulties had not been identified until their cases reached court. Clare is joined by the report author Katy Burch, child protection lawyer Reagan Persaud and she also hears from a parent whose children were recently taken into care. And following golfer Rory McIlroy's announcement that he and his wife Erica have "resolved their differences" and dismissed the divorce petition he filed for last month, we ask what keeps some couples returning time and again to particular relationships. Clare talks to behavourial psychologist & relationship coach Jo Hemmings.Presented by Clare McDonnell Producer: Laura Northedge

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Clare Macdonald and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour. General election manifestos have been appearing this week. The Liberal Democrats, Conservatives and Greens have now all launched theirs and Labour's is expected tomorrow. Well, today on Woman's Hour, in the first of our interviews with the seven main political parties in Great Britain,

I'm going to be speaking to the leader of Plaid Cymru and asking him about what he's doing to get women's votes. Delighted to say award-winning singer, songwriter and actor Paloma Faith will be joining me in the Woman's Hour studio. She has a new book out. It's pitched as her personal account of motherhood, working and not having it all. It's raw, brutal, honest and funny as hell. And Paloma will join me live in just a few moments time. We will also this morning bring you a Woman's Hour exclusive. Why does the high number of

cases of newborns being taken into care in England involve parents who have learning disabilities and difficulties? There's a new report out. We're going to hear from its author and a barrister working in this field who says better training is needed for social workers and also the legal profession. And as pro golfer Rory McIlroy announces that he and his wife have called off the divorce lawyers and are giving things another go, today we're going to examine on-off relationships and what keeps some couples coming back for more. Can it be better second or even third time round? And what should you do to ensure that you're not just attracted to the drama of it

all and you're actually moving forward in a better way than before. Tell me your experiences of on-off relationships. Why did you go back? Did it work out? And what would you do differently next time round? You can text the programme. The number is 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate.

On social media, we are at BBC Woman's Hour. And of course, as always, you can email us through our website. Now, the woman sitting opposite me, Paloma Faith, is an award-winning singer, songwriter and actor. She's won a Brit Award, released six albums, including her most recent, The Glorification of Sadness. Paloma is also the mother of two daughters and has a new book out. It's called MILF. It's about motherhood, love and relationships. And in it, she delves into

the issues that face women today, from puberty to sexual awakenings, her IVF journey to battling through the expectations of patriarchy and the super mum myth. Paloma joins us live in the Woman's Hour studio. Welcome. Thank you. It's great to have you here. I just found out yesterday, which I find so funny, that this book this Sunday on Father's Day is going to be number one Times bestseller. And I just think the irony is absolutely brilliant because it's all about me saying we're doing too much and they're doing too little. You proved your point.

I think they're Paloma. So happy Father's Day, everyone. I think men as well as women will get so much from this book. I've read it. It's absolutely brilliant. As a mother of four, your honesty and your humour just jumps off every single page. Tell us why you decided to write this book now. Well, it started because I didn't ever really think of myself as a writer, but obviously I am a writer because I've written all these songs but um it was just really the um the attention

and the kind of response that I had from when I started to write longer form posts on social media about my experiences um having babies being pregnant postpartum depression and I just felt like the reaction of women was so kind of like massive it felt like people were crying out for the truth and honesty and felt really disarmed by the fact that I was saying stuff and saying thank you for saying this and then I just thought oh it feels like women feel very silenced and alone and I felt like okay I need to do this in a longer form way and what I've essentially written I keep describing it is kind of a hug for women and hopefully an eye-opener for men and I do really hope that both genders read it and I've had quite a few male friends say okay I'm going to read it and message me quite profound

and heartfelt messages afterwards saying I'm really sorry like I've I've been one of these people you're talking about and I've and I made these assumptions about women and I feel bad for thinking those things like that we all know exactly how to do motherhood automatically and it isn't necessarily the case oh you're so honest and the openness of it is quite something you talk about experiences women many women euphemize you talk about miscarrying whilst you're on a film set but you talk about it frankly you talk about what actually happens to your body the trips to the toilet what you physically went through and you do that on many many stages whether it's IVF whether it's you know childbirth this situation with miscarrying

why did you decide your hemorrhoids that's a good one why did you decide to do that because many people don't many people just kind of say this happened and move on quickly you detail it yeah I detail it because I think it's really important because I felt quite isolated going through those things. And it wasn't until I started to speak to other women about them that they were like, yeah, that happened to me. Yeah, that happened to me. And I feel like you feel less alone when you're having these frank conversations.

And it is, unfortunately, sorry to kind of make a sort of slightly negative thing, but I think it's very British not to discuss these things. And it leads to isolation, which I think made my postpartum depression worse and just general feelings of loneliness and despair and all those things. And I think the moment you normalise them, you feel better. Like I speak in the book about how I had a kind of short-term postpartum psychosis because of lack of sleep. And the person who was my hero in that situation

was the midwife that normalised what I was feeling and was like, it's okay to feel like that. It's okay that you're in despair and you are worried and you think maybe you'll have to give your child up for adoption if this goes on and all these things that I was panicking about, rather than say, no, you're an unfit mother and made me feel really increasingly isolated. What she did was say, I'm going to help you out tonight.

You're going to have a sleep. And if you feel like that in the morning, we'll discuss it but and it just pacified me and I feel like it's really important that we we don't just feel that we have to be this kind of social media worthy presentation of what a parent or mother should be in this instance and that most people I even actually contacted people on social media I won't say who but in the public eye who made whose kind of feed made me feel like I was failing and I was like is it as perfect as it looks because I'm feeling like I'm doing stuff wrong and have you got any tips and even they said no it isn't like I have moments of despair I have moments where I mess up I have moments where you know there's a chapter in the

book called giving into the chaos and there's like a catharsis that comes from actually saying this is normal like it's normal to be completely bedraggled covered in your kids formula milk powder or like losing it or just like sometimes crying in front of your kids like it happened recently to me where I was just sort of weeping because I was so exhausted from work and I was just with my kids and I just felt like I wanted to be an amazing mum and I was just weeping and I was trying not to draw attention to it my seven-year-old was like why are your eyes watering and I just think weeping and I was trying not to draw attention to it. My seven-year-old was like, why are your eyes watering? And I just think those moments are really important because we're not alone doing that

and we're not failures when we do that because our best is good enough. When you reached out, I'm just interested to explore that a bit further, when you reached out to this other person who's clearly in the public eye and you wanted help yourself, what do you think about when people present that? And it isn't the whole story. It's not the whole story.

It makes people feel inadequate, doesn't it? Because they're not living that Insta life. But I also empathise with their position because they were like, all my income streams are basically coming from the fact that this is what I put out there. That's the honest truth. And so I'm trying to make money for my family. And I can't, I can't actually do that

unless I tell these lies. And that's appalling. Probably also one of the reasons why I've got absolutely no brand deals. Well, you've got a number one bestseller so you know swings and roundabouts don't think it's as lucrative okay just to go just to go back to the honesty of this book i mean there's so much in there um you talk about the pain of sex after childbirth the feeling you know not necessarily the pressure although there is pressure the feeling of needing to connect with your partner but physically feeling it's impossible do you think that's something that isn't talked about enough yeah and I think that there's so much stuff about we do it to ourselves we do it to each other but female self-blame and there's loads of stuff about that in the book about feeling guilty feeling a failure feeling like you're not you know doing what you're meant

to do and just for the record as well the reason why the book's called that is not because I like the word it's the opposite I don't like the word and it's kind of a play on that but it's like I hate the word and I talk about it in the book because it implies that really women are only good for two things and they both connect like you know actually having intercourse and making babies really and those those are one in the same in many ways anyway so um yeah that that was quite demoralizing I think but yeah so I think it's quite important that it's so for us to say like you know we're not all just able to jump on and be, you know, the best lovers immediately after. And yeah, and you explore that as well before motherhood in the book.

When you delve into your expectations or lack of them as a teenage woman when you were having sex, that it was all about male gratification and you'd learned that as well. When did you manage to turn that around? I think too late. And I mean, I speak about it in the book about various sexual awakenings that I had at moments. But I do feel like something happens to women sort of between the age of like 35 and 45 and it's probably is genetic because it's like just pre-menopause where we become much more kind of sexually alive and maybe empowered and also it's ironic because like our bodies aren't

I mean mine's not as good as it used to be, but I just no longer care. Whereas back then in my 20s, all I could worry about all the time was like, oh, I don't know about this lump and bump. And I had an amazing body. But the irony is as soon as you've like had your hemorrhoids, you've like, you know, completely defecated all over the place during childbirth then suddenly you're like i'm sexually empowered i just don't know what's it's all backwards so desirable now or i don't really care how desirable i am i'm just gonna be a selfish lover which is kind of where i'm at good i only care about me i want to go on to tell us about the story about the roast dinner when you'd had your first child and you'd come home.

And you've really read it, haven't you? Really read it. Great book. And you've physically gone through the mill. And it doesn't go according to plan. You feel able to make a roast dinner for you and your partner. Just tell us the story. the story yeah I mean I'd gone through the meal I'd had a terrible birth and been in labour for a long time because I had premature rupture of membranes and I had like a week-long labour resulting in emergency cesarean after 21 hours and both me and the baby were in hospital for a week and then because of the way it was I had several infections and I essentially remained horizontal for the first three months after having the baby and was on antibiotics for that whole time and couldn't really stand I was sort of going to the toilet even at sort of a right angle because I got so many infections.

And then I just like after three months, I kind of stood up and I was like, I want to cook a meal because I used to love cooking. So I made this meal and it felt really important to me. And the baby started crying when the meal was ready and I just said I'll go and settle the baby and then I'll come back to eat and then I went upstairs and settled the baby and I talk about it in the book but time kind of takes on a new meaning doesn't it in that sort of delirium of early motherhood and I didn't know how long I was up there for but when I got back downstairs there was a meal at the table set out on the you know on a plate facing the garden window by itself and I asked my partner

whether he was going to eat with me and he was like no I've already eaten and I just felt so sad and I feel sad thinking about it and it was like it was quite flippant and I don't think he realized how important and symbolic it was for me because before that I'd always just cooked stuff and you know it was kind of what I loved doing and it was taken for granted. And for me, it was like a real achievement to have been able to do that and almost like tapping back into my identity, not because I'm like desperate to be a 50s housewife, but I just quite like cooking and that's fine. And actually, weirdly, in my life, all the men have been great cooks

and all the women have been terrible cooks, so it not gendered but I just wanted to make this meal anyway I did something that I'm not proud of and I speak about it in the book and I responded a bit violently and I think that there was a mixture of hormones and delirium and like lack of sleep and um depression and I picked up a chair and sort of threw it and I've never before that or since done anything violent in my life and I don't feel good about it for many reasons also like during my, there was stuff around violence that made me feel, you know, just I just feel so I hate it. I hate actually hate anger. Anger in itself is a thing for me. And I felt so terrible about it. But also, I kind of feel sorry for the person like me, that version of me.

And so there's reflections on that in the book because it wasn't, it's not who I am and it's not, and I don't feel proud of it, but it's, it's sort of quite, I guess it's important to say and admit these things because it shows to me how lost to myself that I was because it was so out of character. What do you think it says about, I mean, he's your ex now. You've got a good relationship with him. He's got a great relationship with your girls.

Kind, sensitive, artistic, progressive man. But what do you think that one incident, the kind of, oh no, I've eaten, there, artistic, progressive man. Yeah. But what do you think that one incident, the kind of, oh, no, I've eaten, there's yours, says about male and female expectations, do you think? I just think that there's this kind of complacency and it's ingrained. And I don't think it's only perpetuated by men. I think it's societal.

And I think it's really important at times that we don't just say, oh, the evil man, because patriarchy is perpetuated by all genders. And it's about just questioning where this comes from and how and if I sit down with him and explain these things, you know, appeal to his empathy, and many men like him then it works but it's like how do we have how do we kind of reject these inbuilt generation after generation kind of complacency about a woman's role to kind of suffer and give birth and make babies and it all be taken for granted there's other bits in the book where I spoke to um somebody in my team and they said like we need an angle for this album what's the angle and I said well the out the angle is that I'm a mother and they were like well everyone does that

that's not an angle and I'm like but I think I want to talk about this subject because actually even your response is what I want to speak about and I think that it's about society kind of really acknowledging what a contribution it is it's a huge contribution society wouldn't exist without it but also this idea of like this over praising of men for their contribution now it's not good enough like if if two parents have a child they should be taking responsibility for that child and acknowledging and you know like I was so physically depleted that it was just so devastating for me not to be acknowledged that it was a huge thing for me to make that meal. And it sort of summarised,

it became like a metaphor for everything. It's been an absolute pleasure to have you in the studio. We could sit and chat to you for a whole hour, but sadly we don't. We've got an election coming up. We've got an election coming for Loma. And there's a brilliant end to the book. It's a wishlist of what I want for my daughters.

It's really moving. And at the end you say, now add yours to the reader. Honestly, it's a fantastic list of what i want for my daughters it's really moving and at the end you say now add yours to the reader honestly it's a fantastic book uh no no surprise at all it's number one thank you so much for coming in thank you for having me and thanks to everyone who's bought it so far lots of people listening uh as well and texting the program so pleased to hear paloma's story and that she had someone to normalize her postpartum despair 37 years ago my childless health visitor responded with, still, it's not as though you have to go to work, is it? So, Caroline.

Stay-at-home mums, they've got my 100%, like, I think they get the rawest deal, and I speak about that in the book as well. I'm like, going to work's a break. Yeah. No, hear, hear. I agree with that one. Paloma, we have to move on because there's an election coming, and there's a politician standing behind you.

Actual politician. Actual politician. Hopefully we'll save the country because it needs it. Well, yes. You can have a chat on the way out. Paloma Faye, thank you so much for coming on Woman's Hour. Thank you. Fantastic. Keep your texts coming in. 84844 is the number you need. Now, we are going to talk politics. As you may know, we have plans here on Woman's Hour to speak to the leaders of all the main political parties in the run-up to the general election. First up today, I'm joined by Reena Pyorrwath, who leads Plaid Cymru, or the Party of Wales, as it's also known.

Welcome to Woman's Hour. I've enjoyed listening to Paloma Faith. It's been a great morning so far. Isn't she great? Oh, amazing. I have two daughters in their early 20s who are big fans. Well, you got your selfie on the way out, so... I had to.

I couldn't let it go. Coming to a social media stream near you. Why should women vote for you? Two words you'll hear me and Clyde Cymru talking a lot about in this election are fairness and ambition and I'd invite women to consider those and what we mean by them. Fairness at our core we're about creating a fair society and equality is at the heart of that you know equality for Wales is a big part of obviously obviously, what Plaid is about. But that ambition also can mean many things.

It's ambition for creating a prosperous society, but it's also that ambition for creating that kind of equal society that I have always aspired to. Yeah, I mean, we'll get on to female representation in Plaid in a second,

but you had three MPs at Westminster in the last parliament. You've said repeatedly that you believe Keir Starmer will be the next prime minister. So the question is, for people listening, what does a vote for your party at a general election mean? If it's not really going to impact what happens coming out of Westminster? I think it's hugely important. I think it's clear to most people listening to this that the Conservatives will be thrown out of power in

three and a bit weeks time and that Keir Starmer will become the next Prime Minister. But A, he will do that regardless of how Wales votes. And he will do that at a time when we need to be holding that incoming Labour government in check too and keeping them honest, if you like. And I firmly believe, I believe in proportional representation because that brings a plurality of voices to politics. And having that Plaid Cymru voice at the heart of Westminster,

as we've had unbroken for decades, makes sure that Wales isn't ignored and those issues that are important to us are always on the table. We have to remind people we don't know the outcome of the general election yet. We look at the polls, but it's not definitive. 29% of your candidates are women. That's nine out of 31.

Is that good enough? Less than a third of candidates being female? I think we're in the process now in the Welsh Parliament of pushing for gender equality, looking towards the election in 2026. I look at the work that we've done as a party, which has brought us to a point where three quarters of our candidates in the main target seats, if you like, are women. We will be represented, I'm hopeful, by a majority of women

in Westminster next time round. You know, powerful, impressive young women. Llinos Medi, one of the youngest local government leaders in the whole of the UK as a young woman. A local businesswoman and farmer's wife who brings in something brand new in politics in Anne Davis. Elsewhere, Liz Saville Roberts, of course, who people will know as our hugely impressive leader at Westminster.

We've taken very seriously in recent years the need to put proactive steps in place to get more women. And the reason for that, there's a question mark over whether your party has a woman problem. I ask you because you became leader a year ago when your predecessor had to resign over that damning report, which concluded that the party needed to detoxify a culture of harassment, bullying and misogyny in 2023. That's a poor record, isn't it? It was a very difficult time for us as a party. It was a time, of course, when other political parties, so many of the organisations from the Welsh Rugby Union to the CBI,

facing these issues that shone a light on on on the fact that we weren't what we wanted to be we commissioned our own report the project power report everybody's project in welsh and that gave us a set of recommendations you have 82 recommendations that now a year later we have implemented that gives me the confidence that we are changing, that we have taken seriously the need to be seen to be changing as a party. In many ways, ticking those 82 recommendations off is the easy part. What I want to do is make sure I lead an ongoing process that shows we're serious about the way we're seen. But isn't that a kind of testament to the failure of everything that went before? I mean, you've been a member of the Senate for 11 years now.

You're a very small party, 12 members in the Senate, 60 seats in the Senate overall for people to get an idea of proportion. You must have known about that misogynistic culture. Did you speak up at the time? It's a question that's been asked of me. Did you see something? And I kind of, part of me wants to say, well, no, I didn't see. But I won't say I didn't because the whole point of facing up to misogyny, be that in a political party or another organisation or a business, is that it's our failure to see things in front of us. That's a part of the problem. So you're talking then, you're describing a culture where women didn't feel able to speak up because otherwise wouldn't they have come to you and said, this is terrible?

Exactly. This is why we now have those processes. That's why we implemented those recommendations, which put the processes in place, but also make a very, very clear statement that we want people to come forward. People tell me the party feels different, that the party feels safe, that people feel... Women, are you talking about women? Women. We're talking about equality across the party. They tell me, I was speaking last night to the author of the Project Pope report

who has spoken so positively about the work that's been done since then. This was our time. And when I became party leader, when I put my name forward for the party leadership, I said this is my priority and and it's still so much it gives an example then so somebody you know you can't eradicate that kind of behavior overnight it's cultural uh embedded in some people takes time

to change what will be different if I came forward and said I've got something to report what happens for example that you know you have within standing orders, within parliamentary groups, processes that people can follow that make it explicitly clear that we want people to come forward and when they do that, we will act on them. But it's more than just ticking off those boxes and putting the procedures in place. It's about creating a feeling within the party. And that's that's what politics is all about to me. One of the very important issues to our listeners is health, fully devolved in Wales, of course. We know NHS waiting lists keep hitting record highs in Wales. So as leader of your party, what would you do to bring them down? And crucially, how would you pay for it? Well, first of all, on the funding issue, one of the core issues of our campaign is around the fair funding issue, fair funding in terms of having a fair taxation system

and a fair funding programme that funds Wales according to its needs. We're currently funded by a Barnett formula that does not address that need. Given those fair funding mechanisms, to have those in place by UK government, we can then start to address those elements of health that we have been lagging behind on. One of the things that we'll be talking about in this election is the need for more GPs. We're talking about the need for 500 more GPs. It's a big part of opening the door to the health care system. So many people have their first contact through their GP.

It's about addressing those women's health issues that I've been talking a lot about through my role. Most of my time in the Welsh Parliament has been as a shadow minister for health. We have to address the preventative side more than anything. You know, so much of the bulk of the spending goes on the expensive bit, you know, the NHS. If we can make sure we put more modest amounts, but well targeted into the preventative side, then we can build that healthier nation that we should aspire to. Otherwise, there's always a spiral, isn't it, where the ever-increasing costs of NHS

because of the failure to address ill health in the first place. Yeah, and Labour, the majority party, of course, in the Senate, then it's Conservatives, then it's you. You have been in a cooperation agreement with Labour until recently. And there is a feeling that, you know,

you have been critical of the state of services in Wales whilst you've been propping up Labour and doing budget deals for the last couple of years. Is that not, I hope, a critical position? No, I think we need to address what a cooperation agreement is about, which, as you say, has come to an end now because of the change of Labour leadership

and the fact that it became a distraction for what we were trying to achieve. It's about mature politics. It's about getting things done. When I stand for election, when I get to the Parliament, I want to see if I can influence things for people within my community. We didn't agree with Labour on their approach on health. That's why it wasn't a part of the cooperation agreement. But throughout it all, I've been the leader of an opposition party, holding government

firmly to account. We have to do that always in a firm way, also in a constructive way in every way that we can. Otherwise, we cannot sort of pull together those ideas that can turn things around on issues like health, where Wales has been left far behind because of the Labour government. One specific one on health then. This inspection at Swansea's maternity service last September finding unsafe staffing levels since 2019, lack of staff sticking to mandatory training, not enough being done to ensure babies were being kept safe and secure. Pretty shocking. What specifically are your party's plans to address maternity care failings that have been highlighted over recent years. Listen, we have to make sure that we build those services that are sustainable. And it's that sustainability that's key to me. Sustainability and funding is crucial. Without that fair funding, we can't move forward. But crucially, without the sustainability and staffing, be that around making sure that we have that good supply of midwives coming through, plus all those

other elements of healthcare, we're not going to be able to build a resilient healthcare system in Wales, whether that's for maternity services or all the other services that are important for women. Final quick one, very important to our audience as well. How is your party going to prioritise women's safety, be it online, in their homes, on the streets? And if you're going to make a promise, is there funding attached to that? I mean, one of the things that we want to do is to bring policing closer to home. We've long called for the devolution of crime and justice. Safety for women was one of the key issues in the recent police and crime commissioner election in Wales. David Llewellyn, police and crime commissioner for the Davit Powys police area,

made it very, very clear that we have to prioritise this. It's about violence against women and girls. It's about making sure that streets are safe. It's making sure that on domestic abuse in particular, the police are resourced to deal with those issues and making sure that the justice system absolutely supports women when they found themselves in a situation of domestic abuse.

This has to be a priority in our track record, actually, of MPs at Westminster. Prioritising this is something that I'm hugely proud of Thank you so much for coming in to the Woman's Hour studio we appreciate you giving us your time Reena Pureworth, leader of Plaid Cymru

their manifesto is due out tomorrow there are full lists of candidates for all Welsh constituencies on the BBC website and our interviews with the leaders of the main political parties continue on Friday when Anita will be speaking to co-leader of the Green Party, Carla Denya.

And the Women's Hour election debate is coming up next Tuesday, the 18th of June, in a special extended 90-minute programme. Nuala will be putting your questions to senior women from the main political parties, including the Liberal Democrat deputy leader, leader rather, Daisy Cooper. Now, later, just a little bit later, we're going to be talking about on-off relationships. Tell me your experiences. Why did you go back? Did it work out? What would you do differently next time round? This is after the news that Rory McIlroy, the professional golfer,

has called off the divorce lawyers and is giving it another go with his wife. This text, no name on this, but I separated from my husband 12 years ago. I now know the words to describe our relationship, which was one of the one of coercive control. After a year apart, he had convinced all my friends and family that I had to take him back because he was sorry and could change and it would be best for the kids. I was too fragile, too isolated when he started taking it out on the kids and I felt I would be safer if I took him back. Now, 12 years later, my kids are independent. I've really rebuilt my support networks and I am divorcing him. I'm 64 and cannot wait to start living free from anxiety.

Thank you so much for your texts. Keep them coming in. 848, sorry, 84844 is the number that you need. Now we're going to bring you a Woman's Hour exclusive. Today, a new study examining baby care proceedings in England says that a third of cases where newborns were at risk of being taken into care involves parents who have learning disabilities or learning difficulties. The research, which was commissioned from the Nuffield Family Justice Observatory and carried out by the Institute of Public Care at Oxford Brookes University, is based on court bundles, children's social care records and interviews

with parents, lawyers and social care professionals. Now at the heart of it is the question, what can be done to better support parents with complex learning needs? Joining me now to discuss this is report author Katie Birch and lawyer Regan Passard, who works with parents who have learning difficulties and disabilities. Welcome, both of you. Good morning. Good morning. Before we chat to Katie and Regan, let's hear from a first-person perspective from Emily, as we're calling her. She's a mum with learning disabilities and epilepsy, which was diagnosed early in her childhood. She wasn't part of this Nuffield study but has two children already taken into care. This is her talking

about her experience with her first child during lockdown. When I first found out that I was kind of happy but emotional with my chance to be a family and actually achieve something that I've always wanted to be. And the word mum to me kind of stands out. It means quite a lot. Like you care for someone else. You're going to be there all the time to protect them and obviously it's not just the word mum it's that it's the bond that you have with your child it's the bond that you have so when I was pregnant yeah it made my day to be honest I was

I was really excited I felt with the um baby movements and yeah so I really enjoyed being a mom really and it's there's no barriers that would stop me even like if I have learning disability or not I should still be treated the same like everyone else so I was happy that I become a mum. I obviously have learning disability in preschool I was diagnosed with a learning disability quite young. Social services they say oh we have concerns because your disability might get in the way of you parenting your child. The local authority they sent us to a baby and mother unit, which was very difficult because we didn't have an advocate. We was isolated from family and friends,

so we couldn't get no kind of support. So it was really difficult. So they did the psychological test after I'd just given birth my score wasn't too bad but they still had concerns even about my medical conditions like my epilepsy was getting really bad and I said that I needed support around me from family members or a bit of support from advocacy so I can understand what's going on they didn't understand my needs at all they didn't understand how to work with me and the midwives and my epilepsy consultant were saying you might have concerns but from our point of view there is people outside with epilepsy and you shouldn't pin as low as Emily because because she's got

epilepsy and a learning disability but social services obviously had issues with with it we had the court hearing at the baby and mother unit I was quite petrified to be honest because I had finally had no support like from Africa I didn't know what was going on as I was told is that from the beginning that if we pass the baby mother unit then I will be allowed to go home but unfortunately that didn't happen social services turned up at the baby mother union took my child in front of all the other parents. It was very uncomfortable. It was very emotional. It was scary. Let's bring in Regan Passard and Katie Birch,

who wrote that report. Regan, you are a lawyer. You work closely with parents. Heartbreaking to listen to Emily there. What's your reaction? I think it is heartbreaking. And I think, sadly, her story is one that many parents have experienced in these types of situations. I think we have to remember that these are often people who very much love their children

and it's simply a case of them learning enough fast enough to be able to meet their children's needs as they grow. I think there is a lot that can be done to support them and there is certainly guidance from the higher courts around how professionals should be adapting to them, enabling them to have access to support services and teaching them as they go. Now, I think in some local authorities and in some social services departments, that definitely happens and we see better outcomes. But there are many cases as lawyers that we see on the ground where more could be done. And when it is not done in enough time, these children often do get removed from their family and we get these very sad stories. Katie, Emily wasn't part of your study but when you talk about learning difficulties and learning disabilities in your report can you break down for us what you're talking about specifically?

Yes absolutely. I mean really what we mean here is a spectrum of learning needs and difficulties affecting people, in this case, parents, in different ways. affecting, for example, reading through to a diagnosable learning disability that may have a moderate to significant impact on aspects of a parent's functioning. Not necessarily all, and I think that's really important to recognise. So the aspects might include, for example, simply remembering things. So some people have a particular problem with memory. Others may have more of a difficulty with the speed at which they process information. Other people may have difficulty with attention and attention span. It can get a little bit more complicated than that in that some of the parents in our study had overlapping diagnoses, if you like.

So, for example, a learning disability and a neurodivergent condition such as autism or a mental health condition. And stigma comes into play here, doesn't it? Talk us through that. I mean, which one of you wants to take that? Regan, do you want to take that? I can take that, yes. I think one of the issues we see in the court, when these parents tend to come to court, we forget sometimes that they are very vulnerable people. They have had to live with learning difficulties or disabilities their entire life. And sadly, we still live in a society where often that means they've been bullied. They've been called very unkind names and they have to grow up with that.

Sometimes when they get to court, their self-esteem is therefore hit. We find that they're not exactly proud to stand up and say, I have a learning difficulty and I need support. Often they're very quiet about it. We find that they're not exactly proud to stand up and say, I have a learning difficulty and I need sport. Often they're very quiet about it. Much of this is silent. And then it's left to professionals to identify this, to be able to provide sport. Now, we cannot criticise parents in those cases when they've been through those life experiences, but it does make the system and the job and the ability of professionals to offer that support that little bit harder. And it ties into the fact that there needs to be better specialist training out there to make sure that these issues can be identified early. We'll get into the specifics of what you think needs to change because clearly something does but let's just go back to Emily briefly. We heard from her just a few moments ago she has a learning disability also epilepsy her first child was taken into care then during her second

pregnancy she was diagnosed as having autism. Let's a listen with my second child i made sure that i don't correct people kind of around me like my advocacy my mom my family and friends that could support me so on my second child it was quite different to my first child and also when I had my second child I was home assessed by social services but my second child was really ill pneumonia it was really horrible I was terrified like I knew what to do like call an ambulance and stuff but I didn't know kind of who to turn to for like support kind of wise so we spent three and a half months by my second child's bedside at the hospital it was very scary and my second child pulled through and we was getting cuddles again and we've been smiling I

was being a role mom again I was singing dancing name it. But it felt like I couldn't be a proper family like a normal person would want to be. Like, if someone didn't have a learning disability, for example, they would come out of a store and do what they want to do and go for a walk in the park. They could have their own family life, but I couldn't have that. When they finished their assessment, they said Emily can cope and meet the child's basic needs, but she would need help in the future. But it didn't go in our favor so the care order and the placement order was made the judges need to kind of understand that everyone is different circumstances and different so yeah it's been difficult but I've had counselling I've had support from peer support groups I don't give up, I don't give up on my kids

I fight them until I get what I deserve to be, which is a mum I always will be a mum because the name mum, in my opinion, don't get taken away from me Regardless if my kids are not here or not, I'm still a mum It's inspiring to listen to her Katie isn't it another key finding in your report is that over in over 80 percent of these cases parents with learning disabilities or difficulties had not been identified until their cases reached the court which seems way too late. Oh we thought it was really too late. And actually, almost all the professionals we interviewed for this study agreed that that's way too late. And the reason why it's a problem is that professionals working with parents with learning disabilities or learning difficulties don't actually know that the parent has a disability or difficulty or what the

nature of that is. If a parent had a physical disability this would be obvious. With learning disabilities or learning difficulties it's rarely obvious and also other aspects of parents presentations can mask, hide, if you like, the learning difficulty. So their experience of trauma. Very frequently, the parents in our study had experienced trauma within their own childhoods. Also, their mental health issues and other vulnerabilities. So it's difficult, but not, we would say not impossible, to identify these needs earlier. And the reason why it's important to identify the nature of these needs

earlier is because then throughout the process, the communications, which are so important between a social worker and a parent, the actual support that gets put in place and the meetings that are held very frequently when there are safeguarding concerns can all be adapted and tailored to that parent's specific needs. If that doesn't happen happen they're at a huge disadvantage and particularly if the learning needs are only identified during the court that the clock is ticking the time is running out because those courts are under judges are under a lot of pressure to make a final judgment in those proceedings within 26 weeks. Yes, and we know the pressures the legal profession is under

and the court system is under at the moment. We have got a statement from the government and it's this. There is government good practice guidance on working with parents with a learning difficulty. The government acknowledges that parents with learning disabilities can face significant barriers, including widespread lack of availability of specialist services for assessments

and provision of support adjusted to the client's needs and also time constraints that may not provide sufficient time. The in-depth assessment of parenting capacity requires. Reagan, what needs to change then?

We've heard from Katie about the assessment, but when you do get to court what needs to change are we talking about greater investment what are the solutions here i think that's part of it yes i think there is um the need for greater investment i think a lot of the services on the ground um they're simply not there for these parents and sadly these really vulnerable people at the at the knife edge of a lack of support services on the ground. I think that Social Work England, as Katie's research quite rightly points out,

perhaps there needs to be more of an emphasis on training around working with parents with learning difficulties. You talked about the good practice guidance in working with parents with a learning disability. I think that needs to be reiterated, emphasised more to professionals that that guidance exists, that there are solutions, that there are ways of working that can be used not everyone always knows about that i'm aware that the judges and the lawyers they try very hard when these matters get to court i i don't think i've ever seen a judge or a lawyer be on kind when parents of learning difficulties come to court and they are often difficult decisions to make but of course this is a this is almost a specialist area. The support, the tailoring, the adaptation needed,

it varies per individual and it requires specialist input. Perhaps some form of specialist training around these issues for judges, for lawyers would be useful in itself. Okay, an ideal outcome, both of you. Final word. Katie, what do you want to see? Well, I agree with all that Reagan said there, but I suppose for me, the key is timeliness. So I would really want, as a result of this report and the findings, for professionals to be thinking about this much earlier, to be encouraged by their organisations

and by the whole system to explore this at an earlier stage so that the reasonable adjustments that parents are entitled to before they even get to court from the moment they're referred to a children's social care department can all happen. Thank you so much both of you for joining us. A really important story. You heard the voice there of Professor Katie Birch, who's been working with the Nuffield Family Observatory on that research, and lawyer Regan Passard. Thank you both very much for joining us here on Woman's Hour.

Now, we've been mentioning this throughout the programme. Reports today that golfer Rory McIlroy and his wife Erica have resolved their differences and dismissed the divorce petition he filed for last month. And it made us think about on-off relationships. Why do they happen? What keeps some couples returning time and again to particular relationships? An ongoing cycle of breaking up and getting back together again, or it has to be said in Rory McIlroy's case, they've only done it once.

But there are lots of examples, celebrity celebrity marriages relationships that spring to mind Elizabeth Taylor Richard Burton Burton rather were married and divorced twice more recently Elon Musk and Tallulah Riley Jennifer Lopez where Ben Affleck and married in July 2022 almost 20 years after their first engagement so whilst we have no idea of the circumstances of the McElroy's relationship, we wish them well, of course, is it always a positive situation? Are there times when you keep returning to a relationship that you really shouldn't? Let's talk this through with Jo Hemmings, behavioural psychologist and relationship coach. Hello, Jo. Morning.

The cycle of on-off relationships, then, what keeps people breaking up and coming back to the same person? Well, these on-off relationships can be quite simple in one regard. So you could say it was the right person at the wrong time and then they discover, OK, suddenly they're the right person at the right time. But very often they're more complex than that. So you might have a couple that both have anxious attachment styles, for example. So they find it difficult to set boundaries and they crave intimacy and validation. And that can sort of jar after a while.

It gives an emotional imbalance. Or you get couples that crave the drama, the excitement, the passion of those early days. It worked amazingly. And then perhaps they realize they're not as compatible as they were, but they may have fear that they've had another relationship since it hasn't worked out. They want to go back to the person they were with. The grass wasn't greener on the other side. They did find stability there. They just didn't recognize it at the time there are so many complex reasons for why people will go back to a previous partner and and quite often it stems from um a sort of unrealistic expectation if you like an enduring relationship

so while they're in that relationship and they're having a tough time, they're not communicating properly. They're not making the effort to sort of get over the little hurdles that every relationship goes through. What they're doing is because of this dramatic nature, sometimes their relationship, they will break up, but then realise when they're going through a rough time, that's the very partner that they want to talk to. And so the relationship might rekindle what is the advice then do you have to be brutally honest with yourself as to what your motivation is to get back with this person is it all about having that honest conversation with yourself regardless of what they're saying to you i think it's partly about having that honest

conversation with yourself so a heightened level of self-awareness and, you know, why you're going back into this relationship or considering it. But also having that conversation with your ex-partner, because these people tend to be in a pattern of these relationships. It probably won't be their first rodeo. They may have previously had some sort of relationship, people gone back to them so unless you break that cycle somehow either by counselling from a professional or you you'll have a very candid conversation with each other that says look what went wrong why did it go wrong how can we

prevent it going wrong again there's a very high chance that you're going to hit the buffers again at some point later on, the second or third time around. Oftentimes it's pressure from other people. We had a texter messaging us earlier saying, my family, my friends were saying, get back together, get back together. And it was a very sort of coercive control relationship from which she has now extricated herself. Do you have to resist that? Because I suppose in many instances, you kind of have this ideal, especially if you have children, and you think, well, wouldn't it be good if we could make it work a second time, but that might not be the reality for you. That's right. So you've got to be aware of what's being said that

is probably being said in support and encouragement. But if you're not feeling that, then you're in a very difficult place. I mean, look, in these on-off boomerang relationships, there's sometimes quite a bit of gaslighting as well. So one partner will sort of blame the other for the situation they're in. And if you feel that and you're taking on that responsibility, you'll give it another go to sort of see if you can correct your behavior and in fact, as you comments, the second time around. So yeah, these things do happen. It's very important that you stand alone emotionally and say, what is it that I want?

What will be different this time around? And what mistakes? What have we learned from our previous mistakes and try not to listen to people who are either encouraging to get back together or sometimes have said some sort of poor things about your ex-partner oh well I always want to tell you it was a terrible relationship yet you want to get back with them you know all these things sort of muddy the waters a bit you always have to be careful about that don't you when people split up right you know early days saying what you thought about the then ex because they could become the current again indeed i think we're all guilty of doing it sometimes again from a supportive perspective but it can backfire on us and just a final word

and when you look at stories of people once together a long time ago like jennifer lopez and ben affleck and then they get back together there's rumours that they're having a very turbulent time at the moment is there a feeling of looking back through the annals of time and thinking life was a lot simpler then if only I could see that person again my life would kind of even out is that a mistake thinking that way? Yeah I think there's a nostalgia almost for that kind of youthful relationship, the passion that you had then, the very raw feelings that you had, you know, getting that back. It could have been a magical time.

And sometimes there is a yearning to return to that place. Of course, things have changed and it may not be like that, but it won't stop us wanting perhaps to replicate or try and replicate those feelings again. Jo, great to have you on the programme. Thank you so much for joining us on Woman's Hour. wanting perhaps to replicate or try and replicate those feelings again. Jo, great to have you on the programme. Thank you so much for joining us on Woman's Hour. That is Jo Hemmings, behavioural psychologist and relationship coach.

Thank you so much for all of your text. Lots of you getting in touch about our Paloma Faith interview. This, I'm a 50-year-old trucker. Paloma had me in stitches earlier. If only more women felt able to be so open and honest. And this, I just had to drag my screaming one-and-a-half-year-old son me in stitches earlier if only more women felt able to be so open and honest um and this i just had to drag my screaming one and a half year old son from the streets with tears in both mine and his eyes got home turned on woman's hour to hear you paloma i was feeling totally low and alone on the streets and now i feel part of the power club again thank you so many and this is from chloe and

devon just listen to paloma faith on her memoir. Absolutely brilliant. Rare and brave honesty. So insightful in her reflections on patriarchy and complacency around childbirth and rearing my children are long grown up. But this still resonated with me. Thank you, Chloe. Join us tomorrow. We've got Chaka Khan on the programme. That's all from today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. This is a story about one of Britain's most revered institutions and the theft of ancient treasures that were sold around the world. It felt like a real punch to the stomach. My God, things are being stolen from our museum. I'm Katie Razzell, and from BBC Radio 4, this is Thief at the British Museum. At the heart of our tale is an antiquities dealer turned amateur detective

thrown into the centre of a global scandal. I was shocked. I remember that, thinking my hair stood on end. Search for Shadow World, Thief at the British Museum, on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.