Woman's Hour - Paloma Faith, Nursing, Maya Forstater Verdict

Episode Date: June 10, 2021

We talk to Paloma Faith about her music, her films, being a mother of two daughters, and harassment towards women and girls. She's got a new single out called Monster which is about her relationship with her career.We hear from two nurses who tell us how the past year and a half has been for them. In the light of a report published earlier this week by the Health Select Committee we discuss burn-out and how health staff are so tired because of the pandemic that many are quitting and morale is at an all time low.Dr Gwen Adshead is one of Britain’s leading forensic psychiatrists and has spent 30 years providing therapy in secure hospitals and prisons. She worked extensively with violent women. Her book, The Devil You Know, co-authored with Eileen Horne, is a collection of 11 stories about men and women who've committed acts of terrible violence. And we have bring you the breaking news that Maya Forstater has won her Appeal against an employment tribunal. Maya Forstater went to a tribunal in 2019 when her employment contract wasn't renewed after she posted tweets about gender recognition. She lost that case, but this morning - having taken it further - she's won the Appeal.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome to the programme. My first guest today is the musician and actor Paloma Faith. I'm going to be talking about her toughest role to date. We're also going to be hearing from two nurses on the front line about burnout in their jobs after a year like no other, or coming on to 15 months really now,

and talk to one of Britain's leading forensic psychiatrists about why some people who do terrible things can be helped. But my question for you today concerns free speech. Remember the Scottish law student Lisa Keogh? She was on the programme last month. She got into hot water for talking about sex and gender in her class, for saying women have vaginas. She faced a university investigation, and here's what she had to say to me a few weeks ago.

I think that my case is very, very relevant, and it shows that, you know, free speech is getting suppressed by the universities. Not so much the universities per se, but the people in it taking offence to what I've said. Of course, they've got the right to take offence offense but I think reporting somebody for offending you by accident I don't think that's warranted do you regret anything you said no I stand by everything I said I didn't say anything that was unlawful and everything I said is my view where's the line of somebody thinking it's discriminatory though for you as someone

who studied law because of course you can say things freely that's of course accepted but it's where it bleeds over into it seeming like it was discriminatory that can even be the tone in which you say things sometimes for me to say something discriminatory I would have to single a person out and direct something at them and then discriminate against them in the language used and that's not something I did. I innocently took part in a debate where controversial and sensitive topics were at hand and I assumed that we were all mature adults that could discuss these topics. Well Lisa's now been cleared by her university and I'll be catching up with her later on the programme for her reaction but we're also expecting the verdict while we're on air this

morning of what's been described as a potentially landmark case, an appeal lodged by Maya Forstutter after she lost her job when colleagues took offence because of comments she made about people changing gender on social media. Lisa, as you heard there,

didn't regret expressing herself and this was despite how hard it was to go through the investigation. But what about you? Even if you think you should be able to speak freely, do you? Will you? At work, at university, at school, online, or even with your friends and family?

Perhaps this is not something that is affecting you and the way you express yourself at all. Let me know on 84844. That's the number you need to text us. On social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour, or you can email us through our website. Share your views and your experiences. I look forward to hearing them.

But my first guest, Paloma Faith, an award-winning singer, songwriter and actor. She's released four critically acclaimed platinum-selling albums since 2009, beginning with her debut Do You Want the Truth or Something Beautiful? And, of course, received a Brit Award in 2015. This ain't me, this ain't cool This ain't what I signed up to This ain't right, it's no good No good, no

Everything is changing And I've been here for too long I just can't rely on you Just can't rely on you I just can't rely on you Just can't rely on you We'll be right back. I tell myself I don't care that much But I feel like I'd die Till I feel your touch Only love, only love can hurt like this I wanna cry baby, cry baby

Cause you don't have to keep it inside Won't you sing me your sweet lullaby? I could fall for the sound of your sweet melody And I know you'll take me anywhere I wanna go And I know you'll make me And everything that I want to know The truth of it It doesn't get better A bit of Paloma Faith there.

Run through some of her music and we'll hear a little bit more in terms of her new work shortly. But you may also know Paloma as a role, as her role as a judge on the TV talent show, The Voice UK, as well as being an actor in films such as St Trinian's. But her toughest role to date, continuing to climb the career ladder,

now she's the mum of two daughters, the youngest being born in February this year. And that was the subject of her BBC documentary, As I Am, which pulled no punches in what she described as wanting to be split in two. Good morning, Paloma. Morning. We will get into some of the detail of that shortly. But I know that you've written your new single, Monster, which is from your new album, Infinite Things,

about exactly this, about what's going on at work and who you have to be. Tell us about that. The song is kind of, it sort of chronicles how when I first started my career, I didn't really want for anything I was quite happy sort of being like a bit of a beatnik um sort of traveling performer and having no money and um and then sort of all these things were suggested to me that were felt out of reach to me. But also I didn't find them that alluring.

Like they'd offer me like a car or something and I'd just be like, no, I'm not really like that. And so over time, like you just get used, I've got used to like certain things in my career like success and accolade and the validation of the public um and then obviously like you know financial success in the sense that is dramatically different to what I was used to um and the song sort of is an account of how I feel that I've turned into a monster, like I was kind of like a Frankenstein version of like the capitalist corporate... The side of that. Yeah, side of what is essentially supposed to be a creative industry but isn't always um and and because i've i mean you've spoken and you are doing on social media a lot about how you're trying to balance

these sides of yourself um especially now being a mother do you do you feel that you have to be two versions of yourself to be a mother or just to be to be both in your world as a performer and then come back to being who you are away from that. Yeah, well, I feel quite a lot of pressure. Things like, you know, trying to get my body back. Yes. And I hate when people say bounce back because you're like, what? It's awful.

No one bounces back. And I've got like, you know, like I've got a job on Wednesday for an acting role that I'm starting. And I've sort of decided that it would be much easier to do if I stopped breastfeeding. So I slowly tapered it off. I've got mastitis anyway. Oh, that's the worst. I feel ugly on that.

I'm going to pick up my antibiotics after this interview. Good luck with that. It's all just like, yeah, like the public version and then the private. And actually last night I was out for the first time in probably two years in a restaurant al fresco and uh a woman came over to me and was like i just wanted to say thank you because it is really hard and i was like we don't get enough sympathy everyone says and i've had this said to me by press like um it's not really an angle you know talking about how hard it is to be a working mother because everyone does it.

But that doesn't mean you shouldn't talk about it. And my kind of thing is like, it's not to like go around moaning, but it's to say like, can we just, hi, can we just be acknowledged for how difficult this is? And your specific industry though, I mean, you have to go on tour. That's how the money's made these days, as opposed to selling records. And that

is gruelling at the best of times. But just after having a baby, and also in your documentary, this was after your first child was born. And you can see how hard this is. And of course, people could presume, you mentioned it yourself, with the great spoils that come with being a pop star, being a musician, that because you can afford a nannyanny that you would want to leave the nanny maybe to do everything or you could leave the nanny to do everything but actually what comes across in that film is the huge amount of guilt that you feel and wanting to do it you don't want to because you don't want your kid to like it sounds really awful but you don't want your kid to like, it sounds really awful, but you don't want them to like love the nanny more than they love you or the nanny know your child more than you know.

You want to be able to say, oh, she likes this or she does this, not the other way around. And have you worried about that? Because you obviously do have to leave your child, you know, with someone else a lot of the time because you're on stage. Well, quite often now, you know, we're lucky, I'm lucky that my partner is evolved enough to think he should do it. So when I leave my kids now, it's with their dad,

which is a lot more than I saw mine. So I think that's actually really good for them and I think they're lucky as girls to spend a lot of time with their father and learning you know the sensitivity of men that they can then hopefully grow to expect when they're up but but I think what you're describing there that that jealousy is also not spoken about you know that fear of other relationships sometimes being formed because you can't be there you know I think um it's good to a degree you know to allow your children to have relationships with others but you you know you really do have that desire and need that um well, you feel connected to them because you carried them. And, you know, my new one's only going to be four months on Saturday.

I still sort of think she's a newborn. Like, I still want to be the one that can just pick her up and she stops crying or whatever. Yeah. No, but I think also what was very striking to see, and I thought this was brilliant that this was in the documentary, was that it was discussed with all the people who run your tour, whether it's your accountant, your manager,

who was going to pay for the childcare. And I thought that was fascinating that it seemed like the people putting you on tour, the industry, didn't want to pay for that, that that should be something you should pay for. And yet at the same time, you can't go and do your job. And then obviously everybody listening to this will not be able to relate to the tour element but they'll be able to relate to you've got to sort out the child care to be able

to do your job yeah um well obviously it wasn't that i expected them to pay for it it was just that they didn't want to have the impact on their commission they They didn't want a commission after I'd paid for that childcare. So I wasn't even asking them to pay for it. I was just asking them to take the hit on their commission after I'd paid for it. But that looked like quite an awkward conversation is what I'm trying to say. And it was a reality of you trying to still do what you committed to do, but you needed some help.

Yeah. And I, yeah, it's uncomfortable. And I think it's a really grey area. But I think that, you know, like there are assets to employing women who have had kids and still in careers because usually, well, generally they're much more efficient so for example I've got a PA who's just come back off maternity leave and I just am like I really want to keep you on because I know that you're going to do everything really fast and thoroughly because that's what

happens when you've got kids because you automatically split into 10 million people and I think you know like my accountant who you see in the documentary saying i think you'll find it's money well spent that's because he purposefully does employ women with kids because he finds them more efficient but i i just hadn't seen that before and i thought you know as we hear more about the music industry and whether there is this potential reckoning in it and the Me Too movement as well and how that's impacted the music industry. I just wonder, we've heard awful stories of female artists being pressured not to have a child in the first place or not to have the second child. It's quite exciting and interesting.

I found, I don't know if you noticed, but a lot of females in the music business went and got pregnant in lockdown and loads of women have been having babies that you'd never think maybe felt they couldn't before. And obviously they probably were so overworked, I'd imagine, before that they had time to conceive them in lockdown. Although on that point, and I did really want to ask you about this, it's the case, I believe, that your second child, it took six rounds of IVF.

I've done six rounds for both. For both, okay. This one was four rounds. Which is a lot, you know, to work through that and cope with the disappointment each time. Yeah, yeah, but and cope with the disappointment each time yeah yeah but also I found the disappointment slightly more bearable because I was so busy but I think that the reason why it actually worked this time was because it was during lockdown and I just wasn't doing much

so I think that really helped and I think a lot of women like myself who are working all hours at God's end probably do find it harder to conceive we're not really meant to be doing that to try and conceive babies it's not conducive to you know well yeah and yet at the same time it's a great distraction I suppose when it's not happening. Speaking from personal experience, also having gone through IVF. Paloma, I wanted to ask you... That two-week wait is much better if you're busy. Yes. No, I can fully relate. Fully relate to that, let me tell you.

So it's a bit of a poison chalice. Can't win either way. But I wanted to ask you also about, aware of also the fact you've got daughters, but that your fans are going to fit into this age bracket. And I know you've never shied away from talking about the issues of the day. There's a report out today from the education watchdog Ofsted, which has found that sexual harassment of school girls is so common that girls don't report it anymore. The pressure to share nude images of themselves, girls being rated on WhatsApp groups and online, and also being touched up in the corridors is a normal

part of school, which is all intensified by social media. What do you make of the portrait that's been painted of how it is for schoolgirls? I think it's tragic, but I was one of them schoolgirls, and I'd say that that did happen. I've never met a woman in my lifetime that's not experienced some form of sexual harassment or assault, not a single one. And that sort of unfortunately became, I think for a lot of us,

something that we accepted as part and parcel of being a woman and something that shouldn't be accepted. And I think, yeah, I feel sad for the new generation. I hope that change can be made now that these statistics have been unearthed. But I remember when the Me Too campaign started and it was the first time that I actually thought about those things and started asking friends and women around me

whether they'd ever been harassed or assaulted or felt, you know, victimised because of their being women and, you know, assumed to be vulnerable as a result. And I haven't met one. Everyone has a story or two or three or four or hundreds. Yeah, I mean, kira knightley was saying exactly the same in terms of her work and world only earlier this week in an interview i suppose what's so striking here is the pressure to share nude images and the online element for for girls

coming through and that being very different even since i was a child as it was there was this magazine when I was a kid called nuts which did the same thing and all the girls published photos in there were underage and that was a national published magazine well I don't think we could say perhaps all were underaged and also nuts are not here to to respond to that but I understand the point that you're making that those magazines were in existence at that time and people could submit their own photos to it uh and i i just wondered when you think about your daughters coming through in this generation is this something that you you worry about yeah i do i do worry about it and i worry about it enough to just not care what nuts think about what I just said well my point is I'm just talking I suppose about the I know you didn't know I know you have to say that but um I I feel like

yeah I mean we need to protect our daughters but we also need to in my view I need to equip them with the knowledge and understanding that actually that isn't okay and it's not right and I think that that's to do with communicating to them you know that they're of their value and um it's about education and feeling self-worth I know that when I grew up you know my mum's a feminist I had I did know what was appropriate and what wasn't appropriate and I think that was down to my mum's brilliant parenting like you know from a feminist angle saying you've got to value yourself and of course when you're a teenager there were moments where I'd sort of lost sight of it or whatever because you're but just knowing in the back of your mind you know this certain things are not acceptable or important.

And they obviously don't all know that. So the flaws of our education system has been to do with life skills and actually like teaching young people at a really crucial age things about you know um I don't think they should just be taught sex education I think they should be taught emotional education like you know what's involved in falling in love and interacting and all of those things and how we integrate with each other and what's, you know, inappropriate or appropriate behaviour. Well, that is what a lot of people are also calling for at the moment. Well, you don't seem at all like a monster to talk to in terms of the name of your new single. So I'll say that. And Pullover Faith, thank you very much for talking to us this morning off

to get your antibiotics for your mastitis I hope that clears up and I hope to talk to you again sometime soon thank you very much Paloma Faith there uh talking around a huge range of issues and a message here from Anna saying it is truly heartbreaking when you want to work and fulfill yourself and or or as it is for many keep a over your head, but you also want to be a good mother because it's really difficult to juggle both. I'm sure many manage it, but I never felt truly present for either role. And another one saying, never changed, Paloma, totally down to earth. Now, health and care workers in the UK are so exhausted and burnt out, it's now an emergency. That's according to a report published earlier this week by the Health Select Committee,

looking into the state of the workforce. With reports of staff being so tired after the pandemic, many are quitting and morale at an all-time low, we thought today we would look at one specific sector, nursing. What has it been like to work as a nurse on the ground throughout the pandemic amid a staff shortage and a row overpay and also continuing to work right now? It's not over. You'll remember last month that the woman who nursed Boris Johnson in intensive care, Jenny McGee, announced she was one of those leaving the profession saying we're just not getting the respect and pay we deserve. I'm sick of it. I'm now joined by two nurses from different areas of the sector. Amanda Smith,

an ICU nurse in Belfast and Charlotte Hud, a registered nurse working in a private care home on the Isle of Wight. Welcome to you both. Amanda, I'll start with you. Tell us how it has been on the front line and that description of burnout. Does that apply to you at this point or has it applied to you? Yes, particularly after the second surge, I did feel burnt out because the second surge had lasted from October through to April. And I hadn't anticipated that it was going to last for so long. And also, I was more anxious going into the second surge than I was going into the first, because I'd already been through one surge. And then when you have a break from it, you have the release and you escape from the idea that you could possibly begin getting an infection yourself and be bringing it home to your family. And that pressure had all been have the release and you escape the from the the idea that you could possibly be getting an

infection yourself and be bringing it home to your family and that pressure had all been released for three months and then all of a sudden I was back under that pressure again and it psychologically it does have an effect on you. And does it lead to you feeling different in your actual job day to day um yes i think i think also it was the when we go into work and we're wearing the ppe and um as time goes on you just get used to it and it's not a big deal but when you haven't worn it for three or four months and and you start wearing it again then you can feel how tight the mask is on your face then you know it automatically makes you feel different going into your job that you know you're you're in a environment where there's an infectious agent and you're you're having to be more careful and you're putting the pp on and

you're feeling restricted in it you're feeling hot and bothered and you get dehydrated and and and then sometimes you're so you get to a stage where you're so kind of conscious of how much work you've got to do and all the things you need to keep on top of, you actually forget about the PPE. But at times I wear glasses when I'm at work, and then my glasses steam up, and then I have a visor on top. And then it's very hard to focus sometimes with when I've got the visor and the glasses and it's just the the physical discomfort of everything and it does you do feel it is getting in the way of weight the way you normally would be in work yes and and Charlotte to bring you into this I know that it was particularly

bad uh that during the second wave your care home was hit particularly hard yes um similar to what amanda was saying really about um exhaustion um in in the second wave so yeah so in the first wave i was lucky that the care home i was in then um we we weren't hit too hard but when the second one came the isle of Wight went from low tier to top tier almost overnight. And they thought that it was the other strain that had come through. And our care home, and I know others like it, were hit enormously to the point of massive workforce depletion through infection as well as the residents and patients in our care were also severely affected. Almost half our residents died and at one point there was nearly 95% of our workforce were taken down with infection and I the, I went to work one day after doing extra long day shifts and to not go home and to live in indefinitely. So the images that you see in hospitals of staff

lying around asleep because they can't go home is very much the same with care homes and I know that our care home wasn't alone in that one when I network with other colleagues and yes it's a massive responsibility. Because you don't want to get anything wrong do you? Absolutely not. I mean, an exhausted nurse, sleep deprivation, you know, we're making critical decisions all the time. Our critical decision making judgment is something that we're having to constantly be self-aware of, especially when you're tired. You double check, you triple check everything you're doing um but looking at it broadly um nursing is really you know we've we've mobilized ourselves responding to a global humanitarian crisis really larger than any military intervention in history, really looking at it. And we are the largest knowledge intensive safety critical workforce.

And we are experts in our speciality. And they're really complex. Nursing is really complex. Amanda, to bring you back into this, have you seen people around you retire early or leave because of this? Yes, I've seen a number of staff who have decided to retire early. The ladies who are retiring in their 50s rather than in their 60s. And part of it is having to move to different areas to work and feeling that they no longer are part of their teams and the stress associated with it. During the pandemic, we couldn't have coped in ICU without all the support nurses that were brought in. So they were brought in from different areas. They aren't ICU nurses or have specialist knowledge, but they have knowledge from other areas.

And they were brilliant. I'm sure it's incredibly stressful for them. And they came in to work in ICU and to support us looking after these patients that were very, very sick. And they did a tremendous job under really difficult circumstances. But it is the whole, it's the reshuffle of nurses and hospitals and different places that has caused a lot of stress. And I think because it's so unpredictable people have decided to retire I know somebody who went to she had thought about it for a while and she's actually gone to set up her own dog walking company and she's doing dog walking because she just found everything far too stressful and I think she was kind of in her

early 50s and decided it was time to go but And that it was an option for her to do it. Do you still want to? It's incredibly sad because she was such a good nurse and she was brilliant. Sorry to cut across. Yes, that is. And I think it's a very good example of illustrating the stress that you're talking about. But do you still want to carry on? Yes, I want to carry on. And I enjoy working with my colleagues and I have found it very stressful.

And I am conscious of the fact that the new variant Delta numbers are going up, case numbers are going up at the moment. And I found it hard to sleep last night thinking about the fact that we could be going into another surge and that if, you know, it's not entirely predictable. Like, you know, if we ended up back in a situation where we were in the middle of a surge with lots of patients in ICU, that I'm mindful of the fact that the last surge lasted for a lot longer than I thought it was going to last. And I think part of how long it lasted for made working through it much more difficult than the first surge.

It's an important distinction. Charlotte, just finally to you, how has it made you feel about your prospects within this career? Are you going to keep going? I've done lots of evaluating. So like many colleagues, I'm living with long COVID. Because you caught it on the job we should say i caught it in the job while i was living in um and ptsd i'll never forget what i saw smelt felt you know lived with um and yes i've looked at jobs that you know with Royal Mail and things but really coming back to it

nursing is in my blood I've decided myself that I'm going to I want to be a nurse I want to I have full faith in the profession and I've said to myself a part-time nurse for me is better than a no-time nurse I don't want to leave prematurely like so many others and all those skills that are going with people leaving prematurely um but no no for me I want to I'm keeping the faith um I'm being more gentle with myself and I'm not going to feel guilty for taking time off sick to recover no you mustn. We've had a message from Hattie, who's got in touch to say, so proud to hear you talking, Charlotte,

in my kitchen this morning about your experience of working in a care home through pandemic surges. You're an incredible voice for nursing. That's just brought a big smile to your face, I can see on Zoom. And it's nice to see that smile, let me tell you. Charlotte, thank you for talking to us today.

All the best to you. And Amanda, thank you very much to you as well. And thank you to both of you for all that you have been doing from all of us. A Department for Health and Social Care spokesperson said, we do recognise the enormous pressure this pandemic has put on our nurses and we're committed to supporting their wellbeing. At the same time, we are providing a pay rise for NHS staff when uplifts in the wider public sector have been paused

to acknowledge their extraordinary work during this challenging time. There are record numbers of nurses working in our NHS and applications to study nursing have risen 34% this year alone. As the government put it, we build back better, we will support our NHS workforce to grow with 50,000 more nurses by the end of this

Parliament and all eligible nursing, midwifery and allied health professional students can get at least £5,000 a year from the government. And the Northern Ireland Department of Health told us this morning that they have been proactively addressing nursing shortages through a range of measures to stabilise and strengthen the nursing force. Of course, any experiences you've got, please do get in touch. Now, Dr Gwen Adshead is one of Britain's leading forensic psychiatrists. She spent 30 years providing therapy inside secure hospitals and prisons. Her book, The Devil You Know, written with co-author Eileen Horne,

is a collection of 11 patient stories about people who, for the most part, have committed acts of terrible violence. She joins me now. Good morning. Good morning, Emma. I thought we'd start with what is a forensic psychiatrist? and you can tell us what perhaps drew you to it. Sure. Well, the word forensic comes from the Latin word fora, which means which is an old Roman word for a court hearing where disputes were held. So anything that mentions the word forensic is to do with the law. So the work of a forensic psychiatrist is working with people whose mental health problems have led them to come to do with the law. So the work of a forensic psychiatrist is working

with people whose mental health problems have led them to come into contact with the law. And it also includes looking at the mental health of people in prison. And I got interested in this because I was interested in medical law and ethics. I was interested in ethical and legal dilemmas in psychiatry. And so forensic psychiatry was a real draw for me, because I was going to be working with people who had often committed crimes when they were mentally ill. And that raises all sorts of very complex legal and ethical questions. Just in terms of trying to understand the numbers, you made a decision for your book to have gender balance in the book, despite,

for instance, only 5% of homicides in the UK being committed by women. You've obviously done a lot of work with violent women, but there aren't as many violent women. Why did you decide to balance it? Well, it was quite a complicated decision. And Eileen and I spent quite a lot of time thinking about it. But one of the reasons that we decided to go for an equal balance is that because women who are perpetrators of significant violence are so unusual, they often get overlooked and the services provided for them tend not to be gender specific. They tend, because men are the usual perpetrators of violence. Most of the interventions tend to be based around kind of masculine kinds of issues. So we really wanted to, we thought that by including more cases of women, we would actually redress a kind of gender imbalance and make sure the voices of women who got into trouble with the law were heard properly.

Can you give us an example? Because there's a few in the book, but in terms of the people that stand out to you, if we started with a positive one, and one that has a positive ending, to talk about Kezia. So she murdered her care worker, Charlotte, who took part in a gang killing, and Zara, who was an arsonist.

Tell us about the ones that you feel you have been able to help. I should say a good ending or stress that in terms of what you do. Well, and I think I'd like to start by saying that in a lot of cases, if we can get people engaged in any kind of psychological treatment, we tend to get good outcomes that help people make a recovery and improve their chances of living without violence in the future. So actually providing any kind of support and care probably increases people's risk of succeeding in the future. So Kezia's case was one where she had killed, sadly, very sadly killed her care worker who was looking after her when she was very mentally ill. And that work was about helping

her team understand her risk better, so that when she moved out into the community or into less secure care, then that risk would be managed successfully. And her particular needs as a person, she would be understood as a person. And Charlotte's case was one of women who get stuck in prison. And there are women who've committed acts of serious violence who get detained way past the kind of sentence that they would normally serve because violent women are unfamiliar to people, but also because they tend to get judged quite harshly. So this was a case where we were helping Charlotte to understand her own emotional outbursts and to help her manage

herself better. And that meant that she could more engage with the prison interventions and make progress towards parole. So these are the kinds of cases, these are the kind of cases I wanted people to see and understand how valuable it can be to offer psychological therapy to people. Do you ever get scared of meeting these individuals? No, no, very, very. I would say in my career, I've only very rarely been scared. And that's, I'm usually more scared of people that I meet in the street. And I would say, but in a secure setting, you know where the danger is. And actually, everybody's very attuned to risk. So no, I don't get scared, but I do get sad sometimes because a lot of the stories we hear are of trauma and abuse and loss in early life. And that can be very sad. And is that what defines female violence in some way? Some of the roots that You say it gets lumped in with male violence. Yeah, no, I wouldn't say so.

I think that both female perpetrators of violence and male perpetrators of violence have both experienced high levels of childhood trauma and adversity. But the really interesting thing is why it seems to take more for women to be violent. I think that one of the big... And this is a Nobel Prize winning question, which I certainly can't answer. But the question is, is our men more vulnerable in some

way in terms of their violence commission? Or do women have some kind of resilience? Is there something about the feminine identity and social role expectations that helps to protect women in some way from getting into a state of mind where violence takes place. But what we do know, and that is a huge question, but what we do know is that it takes longer and it doesn't happen as often. Absolutely. And it seriously doesn't happen as often. As you say, the number, the absolute numbers of women who perpetrate serious acts of violence is really small compared to the number of men. So that really is a very interesting question, particularly when we think that the majority of men will never be violent. So what it is about violence perpetration should

be of real interest to all of us because it's an unusual way for people to break the criminal law. There is a story in the book, a very poignant one, about a woman called Lydia, a stalker, because not everyone will accept help. Yes, I think that, of course, that's right. And I, you know, I have to say that, of course, you know, I do meet people who we offer therapy to, and sometimes they just can't engage and they can't make use of it. And then that they struggle with their mental health and their risk persists and that is very sad and we do I'm aware of working in a in a women's prison where we have quite a number of women who have problems with stalking behavior and seem to be unable to let that go and that's

a real problem because you know they do pose a risk to other people. And it must be incredibly frustrating. You do what you do because you want to try and bring that to them. Absolutely. Just like my nursing colleagues who were talking before, so thoughtfully and compassionately, you want to, you join in this work because you really believe that you can make a difference and you want to get alongside people who are in need and also in this particular case of forensic work you not only want to make people's improve people's mental health but you want to help them reduce their risk of acting violently in the future so it is very frustrating when you're working with someone you and you're offering them help and they just say look I don I don't have a problem, it's everybody else's problem. You know, you don't understand.

And so, but, you know, the reason that Aileen and I wrote this book, it was an invitation to look a bit closer at what happens with people after they've been convicted, after the judges ended their remarks and after somebody goes off either to prison or to a secure psychiatric hospital, what happens next? So this is really what the book was about. And interestingly, you have good things to say, for instance, about the high security hospital Broadmoor, where you've also worked for many years.

Yes, very much so. Most people wouldn't associate that with necessarily positive remarks. Yes, and I think that that is really about a kind of very strange, well, that's not strange, but a sort of irritating kind of presentation of an NHS facility, which is providing good quality care to very complex psychiatric cases for 150 years. And it's because of the work that was done in high secure hospitals that we were able to develop more protocols and more services for people who have lower risk. It's actually understanding more about high risk. And the fact that it's unusual for people with mental illnesses to be risky to anybody. Our understanding of that comes out of work in places like Broadmoor. Broadmoor is just not like the way that it's portrayed in the media at all. It's just finally, and I love the idea of this, you compare the mind

to a coral reef and you say the study of psychiatry requires a deep dive below the surface. Do you think if people do accept help that everyone can change, that you can get in there? I think there is the possibility that a mind can change is there for can get in there? I think there is that the possibility that a mind can change is there for everybody. I think we all have the potential to change our minds for the better. The question is, can we take the time and can we let ourselves take the risk? Because sometimes it can be risky to change your mind. It can feel like you have to give up something that's precious to you. And that's often a process that people have to get to grips with.

Well, you have helped them where they have accepted it. Dr. Gwen, I said, thank you very much for talking to us. Wrote that book, The Devil You Know, co-written with Eileen Horn. And I should also say that that is going to be on Radio 4 next week, as it will be Book of the Week at 9.45 in the morning, just before we come on air here at Women's Arts. Thank you for talking to us there. Gwen I asked you right at the beginning of

the programme about your views and whether you feel that you are free to share them. Freedom of speech and a lot of messages have come in on this and I'll give you an update in just a moment with the news regarding this but let me just read some of these messages because I've asked and you've delivered. Emma says with with friends and family, yes. With young colleagues, not so much. There seems to be a culture amongst many to be 100% virtuous, always to have the right opinion. I don't expect my friends to completely share my views,

i.e. on the environment or Brexit, sex versus gender. I'm happy to agree to disagree. Another one here talking about where they come in on this. I think it's, no, women who state facts and reality often face abuse. This is from Rosalyn. It's about time that you started doing your job and covering stories like this. I think that part's addressed at me. Thank you for that.

And we'll be doing our next story shortly. Though my partner here, I think my partner would agree, for instance, with my gender critical views, Emma, a message here. But he said I was being prejudiced. I thought he would. I recently discovered my brother agrees with my perspective. It's a huge relief. Now I'm not alone amongst people I really care about.

I don't mention these views on Facebook. I'm partly anonymous. I have a new followers, a few followers on Twitter. So I do comment and share. Another one here, Emma, I think on freedom of speech, it's important to distinguish between freedom of speech and freedom from consequence. Opinions are important, but they don't give us the right to attack others, incite harm or knowingly offend. We should be open to challenge as that's how we learn

and understand the way that others feel, says Ruth, who's also sent a kiss on that message. But one more here saying, yes, very much though, I feel like my wife and I now have to be careful about what we say. And I know you'll enjoy this one from Richard on email. Maybe it's just a man thing, but I've never had a problem with saying what I think. Well, why are we talking about this? There's two stories, actually, and one that's just had some developing news on it,

because news has just come through that a woman who lost her job because of comments she made about people changing gender has won what some people are calling a landmark legal case. In 2018, Maya Forstutter was working for a think tank called the Centre for Global Development. When she was there, she expressed views on Twitter saying that men couldn't become women. Some of her colleagues took offence, believing her remarks to be transphobic and her contract wasn't renewed. She went to an employment tribunal but lost. She then decided to appeal. And she's just been on Twitter just a few moments ago

talking about the fact that she has won. To put this story into context I'm joined by the BBC News correspondent Charlotte White who's been following the case. So the verdict's in? Yes the verdict's in. That original tribunal has been overturned and Maya Forstater has won her appeal. She has tweeted the news today. She's tweeted saying we won. She tweeted a picture of herself with some words on it, which said gender critical beliefs are worthy of respect in a democratic society. This judgment's just been handed down by the appeal judges today. And some people saying this could be landmark. Why? Yeah, it's pretty significant.

This is what Maya had been saying, that this sets a precedent, really, when it comes to future cases that are similar. She says that thousands of people are afraid of expressing gender critical views for fear of being reported and investigated by their employer. And she says that actually, if someone was dismissed from work in a similar position, now they would have, there is this precedent, they would have a case for unfair dismissal too. So this is really significant and could have a big impact on people in the future. We should say what's been clarified here with the judgment about what it doesn't mean. The judgment doesn't mean that the Employment Appeal Tribunal has expressed any view on the merits of either side of the transgender debate and nothing in the judgment should be regarded as doing so. And this judgment doesn't mean that those with gender critical beliefs can misgender trans persons, just to quote directly, with impunity. Yes, and these judges say we acknowledge that some trans people will be disappointed by this judgment. It

is, of course, a hugely emotional and sensitive topic. That original judgment in the first tribunal, it said that the view that biological sex and gender was incompatible, that biological sex and gender is separate, it was incompatible with human dignity. There was the argument that it presents an existential challenge to trans people. This judgment, though, does say that this view, you know, is worthy of respect in a democratic society, and it does fall within the Equality Act. And in terms of the tweets that were at the heart of this, if you're just coming to this now, can you remind us of what the controversy was? Yeah, she was initially tweeting about proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act and she said

back in 2018 that she was concerned about, as she put it, radically expanding the legal definition of women so that it can include both males and females. She said that makes it a meaningless concept and will undermine women's rights and protections for vulnerable women and girls. Later that year, she also tweeted, I think that male people are not women. I don't think being a woman or female is a matter of identity or womanly feelings. It is biology. So that's her opinion. And that is the kind of fundamental point that she has been trying to make and that she says is a belief that should be protected under the Equality Act. And that's what the judges today have found is. And yet I should also say we have invited Maya Forstatter onto the programme today and she was not available to do so.

The point, I suppose, about this, and we're going to go on to another case in just a moment, which I mentioned the case of the law student Lisa Keogh. Lisa is going to be with us in just a minute or so. But I suppose the issue here is defining, which a lot of our listeners have come through on, what's going on here about whether it's to do with the debate around what she was tweeting about or whether it's to do with freedom of speech. And it seems that the judges are saying this is about freedom of speech. Yeah. And for Maya, she says this is about the ability to fight sex discrimination. And she says without being able to say her view that biological sex and gender is separate, it's impossible to talk about these issues clearly. She's concerned, she says, about the impact of self-identification, for example, in single-sex spaces such as women's refuges. So that's the kind of crux of Maya's argument. But this will now go back to the tribunal. This was a preliminary

hearing to determine whether or not this belief can be protected by the Equality Act. And now she will have to return to the tribunal to kind of deal with the central matter of her not having her contract renewed in her original way. So her employment. So those are the next steps. OK, so we'll of course follow that. Do stay with us, Charlotte, because I think in terms of any other messages coming in, it'd be good to just have you here because I know you've been following the case. A message also to read from Janine who says this is such an important decision for women. This needs to be talked about.

And many of you also getting in touch about how free you feel in terms of freedom of speech do you feel you should be able to speak freely speak your mind says this person here who calls himself on twitter reluctantly quiet woman absolutely 100 not do you feel that you are free no um you've got a message here just saying uh no many women do not feel able to speak their mind on this particular issue we get death and rape threats and in some cases are disciplined or even sacked from jobs and then women's are have been almost silent on this subject for a long time good to see you're featuring it now well i think we've been talking about this quite a lot but i think you will also

be free as you have done to send in your views on it normally i would speak out carefully and also get involved in action as I have done all my life, but on the trans issue, I'm not sure how to express what I feel since debate has become so toxic. I just share my opinions with others who ask the same questions.

I think in time, this issue will sort itself out and we will look back on it with alarm and astonishment, says Anna in York. Well, someone who's definitely going to be reflecting on how this has affected her

and also her ability to finish her university degree is Lisa Keogh, who I spoke to last month, just finished at Abertay University in Dundee. And before that, to remind you, there'd been complaints by her classmates about some of the things she'd said in a law class. For instance, she'd said women are weaker than men and women are women because they have vaginas, to pick a couple of those comments. This led to a university misconduct investigation for which she has now been cleared. Lisa, good morning. Morning. Thanks for joining us again. What's your reaction in terms of your own case? In terms of my own case, I'm delighted that I was cleared. I was surprised. I wasn't sure that, you know, common sense was going to prevail, but I'm glad the truth did,

and I'm glad that I've been cleared now. Did you receive it in a letter? Did someone come and tell you? How did you find out? An email on Tuesday night letting me know that I'd been cleared of all charges. Because when I spoke to you, you said, even though you haven't been punished in any way, the investigation itself had been like a punishment. Stand by that. The investigation itself was a punishment. I was being investigated while I was finishing off my final exams. I was being investigated while I was doing my dissertation. I was trying to continue with normal life,

looking after my children and being a mother. The process was stressful and it was definitely punishment. And in terms of the finding from the university, quote, it found no evidence that you had discriminated against another member of the university. Because when we spoke, you were also struggling to understand what had happened, who had complained and about what.

Yeah. Are you any clearer on that? Yeah, I mean, I had the initial investigation back in April and the complaints were made about what I said. You know, did you say that only women are born with vaginas? Did you say that men are physically stronger than women? So it's still on that basis. It's still on that interview, that initial free speech interview. And in terms of, I suppose, just speaking now off the back of Maya Forstater's ruling, I should get your response, if I can, on that. I'm just I'm glad that she's won her tribunal appeal. And so I'm really happy for Maya.

Because you in your sense, when we spoke, I certainly got the sense that you were invited to share your take on the conversation that was happening. This is, I suppose, a different context as well, because you were having a chat in your university setting as well. And in that sense, you said you don't regret anything that you said and you were asked for your views. Yeah. So do you see this predominantly as a victory, in your case, for free speech? I see it as a victory for free speech, but on a small scale.

I worry that somebody else is not going to get, you know, if somebody else says something similar in university, I worry that they won't be able to stand up and tell their story and they will get stifled. And so it's a victory, but it's not an outright victory. Because you think it will have a chilling effect on other people? Other women especially will be scared to express their rights and their opinions. With fear of being investigated? With fear of being investigated, sorry. So in terms of the university and how it's responded,

I've got the full statement here, because they've talked about the fact they don't normally comment publicly but because you've chosen to comment publicly they've done so they say the university is legally obliged to investigate all complaints it doesn't mean every element of a complaint

about a student becomes the subject of a disciplinary case contrary to misleading statements by some commentators who view this as a case about gender identity Lisa Keogh was not subject to disciplinary action for expressing so-called unacceptable opinions about gender identity. Do you accept that? I don't accept that.

I was disciplined due to my freedom of speech. I was interviewed in the first instance and the very first question asked was, it was either the vagina question or the strength question. It was one of those two. I'm pretty sure it was the strength one. So it was about what I said. It wasn't about anything else other than the opinions and what I said. So it was specifically about the issue that they're saying it's not, as opposed to your right to say it.

Yes. That's your view and the university holds a different view. Because to get to the heart of it, and I think this is very interesting on some of the messages we're getting in from our listeners, Lisa, is some people are saying they feel generally at the moment freedom of speech is stifled around lots of issues. There was a message, I don't know if you heard me read, someone saying with younger colleagues, they feel like they've got to say certain things. And then there are others saying very, very clearly, especially also in light of the Maya Forstater case, that they can't talk about what makes a woman a woman in their view. What do you think it is? Is it specifically that subject or do you feel we've got a problem across the board?

I think it's a very sensitive subject and a lot of people are taking offence to that subject. I can't comment about across the board because I've not been implicated in any free speech across the board. But I would definitely say that this specific subject, people are scared to talk on. Do you think the media publicity with your case affected the outcome positively? I think that may have helped. It may have been something that changed it. Would you do it again? Would you talk like you spoke? Because last time I spoke to you, you said you didn't regret what you'd said,

but as you said, it was a horrible experience to be investigated. Yeah, it was a horrible experience to be investigated, but I'm not going to stifle myself. I'm not going to be silenced. I'm still going to express my views when asked and I would do it all again. Do you feel that the moment,

this moment that we're in, and I'm very aware, you know, having a live radio programme, if something's just happened, I'm talking to you just after something's happened to you, do you feel like something's changing, perhaps? I feel like these things are getting highlighted more, so hopefully things will change.

Are you going to go to your graduation? Probably not. Because of this? I just, I don't think it would be a very nice atmosphere to be in at graduation so I think the chances of me going to graduation are very slim have you spoken to any of your your mates in your class since um yeah I mean I've spoken to the sort of two friends I've got from the class um one of which has already left university uh she left last year so she wouldn't be going to graduation anyway.

The other one, I've met her and had a coffee and stuff and spoke things over. But whether she's going to graduation or not, I don't know. But I just don't think it's a good idea for me to go. Lisa, thank you for coming to talk to us again. Lisa Keogh there. We're, of course, speaking in light of what has just happened with the Maya Forstater verdict as well. A short while ago, Maya Forstater won her appeal, meaning that holding gender-critical views, being protected under the Equality Act, she won that tribunal in what some people are calling a landmark legal case.

We've had a statement from Maya's old employers, the Centre for Global Development, who say, the decision is disappointing and surprising because we believe Judge Taylor got it right when he found this type of offensive speech causes harm to trans people and therefore could not be protected under the Equality Act. Today's decision is a step backwards for inclusivity and equality for all. We're currently considering the various paths forward with our lawyers. We will, of course, follow this case. A message that came in from Lucy says, I'm a trans woman with a gender recognition certificate.

I have no problem with women expressing their beliefs that biological gender cannot be changed. I happen to agree with that. I cannot change my Y chromosomes and all that comes with them. But telling me I can't live my life in the gender I know I am has to be a denial of the dignity and respect that any human being is entitled to. Instead of shouting at each other, why can't we try to understand each other and be kind and be more accepting of all of our many differences thank you very much for all of your views today and for your company as always women's i'll be back tomorrow at 10 that's all for today's women's hour thank you so much for your time join us again for the next one welcome to descendants the series which looks into our

lives and our past and asks something pretty simple. How close are each of our lives to the legacy of Britain's role in slavery? And who does that mean our lives are linked to? Narrated by me, Yersa Daly Ward, we hear from those who have found themselves connected to each other through this history. Whoever you are, wherever you are in Britain, the chances are this touches your life somewhere, somehow. Descendants from BBC Radio 4. Listen now on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.