Woman's Hour - Paralympian Jodie Grinham, The Wicker Man, Singer Mary Bridget Davies

Episode Date: August 12, 2024

For the first time in history, the Paris 2024 Olympics saw an equal number of men and women competing. But that's not always been the case - in fact, back in 1912, the father of the Olympic games Pierre de Coubertin said that having women compete in the games would be 'impractical, uninteresting, ungainly and, I do not hesitate to add, improper'. Luckily, the Olympics didn’t just have the father of the games – it also had the MOTHER of games, Alice Milliat. BBC Mundo’s Laura Garcia tells us all about this sometimes forgotten figure behind the Olympics.One of the most influential women in the tech industry has died. Susan Wojcicki, the former CEO of YouTube and one of Google’s earliest employees, died on Friday at the age of 56 from lung cancer. Sheryl Sandberg, the former Chief Operating Officer at Meta, paid tribute to Wojcicki on Instagram, writing: "As one of the most important women leaders in tech — the first to lead a major company — she was dedicated to expanding opportunities for women across Silicon Valley. I don’t believe my career would be what it is today without her unwavering support." Professor Gina Neff, executive director of the Minderoo Centre for Technology at University of Cambridge, discusses her impact.The Paris Paralympics are two weeks away, and Nuala is joined by archery champion Jodie Grinham. Having already won a silver medal in Rio and a gold at this year's European Para Cup, Jodie will be looking to win a medal again this summer. She has already broken one record, being the first member of Team GB's para team to compete whilst pregnant.The Wicker Man is regarded as a masterpiece of British cinema. But when the film was first released in 1973, it was a flop, and the director Robin Hardy was secretly relying on his wife Caroline to bankroll the entire production. Their son Justin Hardy talks to Nuala about the cache of long lost letters that revealed his mother’s hidden role and about his documentary, Children of The Wicker Man.Mary Bridget Davies is playing Janis in A Night With Janis Joplin. It's a biographical musical about the life of Janis Joplin and her musical influences. It includes all the big Janis hits, including Piece of My Heart, Cry Baby, Me and Bobby McGee performed by Mary - a role she was Tony-nominated for in the Broadway version of the musical.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Kirsty Starkey

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Nuala McGovern and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour. Yes, indeed, the Olympics has come to an end. But if you're feeling at a loss, don't worry. The Paralympics are just around the corner. Paralympian archer Jodie Grinham will be with us, who's excited to get going in Paris. Jodie is also 26 weeks pregnant.

So quite a different picture from 1922 when Frenchwoman Alice Milliet, dubbed the mother of the Olympics, was fighting to have women included in any Olympian sport. We're going to chat about the evolution of women in the Games in a moment. Also, I want to know, do you have a female athlete that you have become a

huge fan of during these Olympics? Who, from where and why? Here's a few of mine. The GB weightlifter, Emily Campbell, for her strength, yes, but also her fabulous humour. The Irish boxer, Kelly Harrington, for defining personal success in such uplifting terms

she is not defined by the boxing ring and the sprinter Julian Alfred for bringing home the first Olympic medal to St Lucia who is yours? text the programme 84844 on social media we're at BBC Woman's Hour or you can email us through our website

for a WhatsApp message or a voice note that number 03700 100 444. Also this hour, the music of Janice Joplin, thanks to Mary Bridget Davies, who will be performing right here in the Woman's Hour studio. And to film, did you ever watch The Wicker Man? It is a cult classic among horror film fans, lots of the men involved now very well known. But what about the woman who invested her money to get it made? Caroline Hardy has been left out of its cinematic history. We'll hear why from her son and how he intends to write that. Plus,

we'll hear about the life and legacy of Susan Wojcicki. She was the CEO of YouTube and she has died at the age of 56. But let us begin with Paris 2024. It was the Olympic Games for the first time in history that saw an equal number of men and women competing. It has not always been the case. In fact, back in 1912, the father of the Olympic Games, Pierre de Coubertin, said that having women compete in the Games would be impractical, uninteresting, ungainly, and he did not hesitate to add, improper. But luckily, the Olympics didn't just have a father. It also had a mother of the Games, who I just learned about, Alice Milliet.

BBC Monday's Laura Garcia is here to tell us all about this sometimes forgotten figure behind the Olympics. Good morning. Hope you had a wonderful closing ceremony, Laura, and welcome back to Woman's Hour. Tell us about Alice Milliat. So just like you, I was really surprised to learn about Alice Milliat's name because I've been in my preparation to come to the Olympic Games hearing Pierre de Coubertin's name over and over and over again. And in a Games where gender parity has been such a big thing, the Paris organizing committee has been trying to kind of rescue the legacy of Alice Milliat. She started out hating sports when she was young because we have to kind of throw ourselves back to that time where sports for women were really just like gentle stretches and gymnastics.

And you had to wear corsets and really restrictive clothing she didn't like it at all it wasn't until she traveled to the uk and she hung out with a bunch of suffragettes that she realized that the fight for women to participate in sports and kind of move their own bodies and be wearing more free like liberating clothing was also a fight for women's rights and freedom. So she became a brave advocate for organized women's sports and fighting to get women to compete in all the same sports as men

because they weren't allowed to at the time. And the words I mentioned there of the father of the Olympics saying women competing would be impractical or uninteresting. She obviously didn't follow those instructions. What did she do instead? So instead, she tried to get them to include more women in the Olympics. And after

hearing no a million times, she just decided to organize her own games. She was a really good organizer and she understood the structures of sport. She understood how to make sure there was press in the stadiums. So she organized the Women's Olympics in 1922 in Paris for the first time, and then she organized three more because they were an enormous success. And basically, the idea was to prove that not only women could compete, but there was interest in women's sport. She managed to get front pages. There's lots of coverage. When I started researching this story, I thought we were really going to struggle to find footage, but there's so much because Alice made sure that it was recorded, that it was on tape,

that there was evidence of the fact that not only women can compete exactly the same as men, but also that there's interest and that people will go and watch them. And what I love to see in that footage that is on one of the videos you have online, Lara, is thankfully thankfully uncomfortable clothing that they are crossing the finishing lines. The corset has been abandoned. Yeah, and that kind of happened side by side. If you think about it, 1922,

when she organized the first Women in the Olympics, a lot of women couldn't even vote. Like women in my country in Mexico couldn't vote until 1953. This was a very visionary fight from her part and i think it's important also to add that it wasn't just her right so alice led a movement and there were lots of women that walked with her to get not just organized sports but understand that a woman's right to do sport in her own time for their mental health to participate

to compete was super super important. And then eventually people started listening to her and her colleagues. And in 1928, they allowed women to compete in track and field for the first time in Amsterdam. But as we have seen, it's taken us then a whole lot of time to get to full gender parity. Almost 100 years. Yeah. So interesting. But she was also one of the 10 statues of women that were featured in the opening ceremony of the Games. I suppose maybe France trying to bring recognition to some lesser known women. Tell us what we saw. So we saw in the opening ceremony, which feels now like a completely different universe ago, even though it was only two weeks ago, we saw this beautiful moment where we had the Marseillaise being sung,

the anthem for Paris, and then 10 golden statues that came out of the river. Like you say, to rescue the stories of these women, it's not like they had to make them up. These women have been there and have always been fighting for different parts of inclusion. And you might recognize now Alice Miliat's name,

and hopefully we'll keep saying hers alongside Pierre de Coubertin. But also, for example, Simone de Beauvoir, the poet and author and philosopher, Alice Guy, who was a film director. The women were also kind of scattered across the ages to represent that this kind of fight isn't A, new, and B, hasn't gone anywhere. I like also Jeanne Barrett, explorer and botanist. She was the first woman to circumnavigate the globe, disguised as a man to accompany a botanical expedition in the 18th century. And I suppose all of that really trying to tie into that theme

of gender parity for the athletes, I should say, at the Olympics, because definitely still not there when it comes to some of the upper echelons, either in the federations or coaches. Yeah, and I think it's important to remember that like gender parity is just a number and we have to look at the structures around athletes, the support that they get. Another first in this Olympics, it's the first time that we've had a nursery in the Olympic Village, but that was an initiative started by an athlete who is a mother and who said, why shouldn't there be facilities for parents, in plural, men and women, to be able to spend time with their children, right? And that front and center of making gender parity a part of the Games was palpable,

from making sure that women's sports were in the same primetime spots as some of the men's. But yeah, when you look at the sidelines and athletes go and join their teams, a bunch of the coaches are men. Many of the presidents of the National Olympic Committees are men in Latin America, the region that I cover. It's only very few women who lead the Olympic committees for their countries. And the further higher up you go into the organizations, the more that gender parity starts to slip away. And then it's also important to recognize that sport is not available to all women in all countries. So this fight that Alice Miliat started is still ongoing.

Let's also talk about the marathon route. Paris ended the Games with a women's marathon yesterday. A bit of a change. You want to talk us through the significance? Yeah. So traditionally, it's the men's marathon that closes the Olympics. And it's like this big, big, big thing that everyone's waiting for. And this time around, the Paris organizers, again, because they're trying to lean into this idea of fighting for gender parity, put the women front and center to close out the Olympics. So Sunday morning, when everyone's looking forward to the last thing, the two biggest events we had were the marathon and the women's front and center to close out the olympics so sunday morning when everyone's like looking

forward to the last thing the two biggest events we had were the marathon and the women's basketball final which was absolutely the americans won again yeah but just by a bit they almost did it it was absolutely like we had the same kind of countries fighting for the basketball final well to get back to the marathon in a second. But the basketball, you had France, US in both the men's and the women's. And I can honestly say impartially as a journalist that the women's game was more of a nail biter than the men's. Well, there you go.

And then back to the marathon. You know, I was asking people for their favourite female athlete that they perhaps discovered or became a huge fan of during this particular Games. And I see somebody has said, Sifan Hassan, what a warrior, 5k, 10k and then that incredible marathon win. How did she find it in her legs? But the thing that shines through is her smile, her joy is infectious. That one from Caroline, 84844 if you want to get in touch. So an amazing performance

for that women's marathon. It was incredible. She was historic for what she did. Also her energy down on the pitch. She stayed and she congratulated loads of the other women who competed, even the people who came nearly last. And I think another important part

of how this marathon was changed in order to reflect how the Games want to be more gender equal is that the route changed they changed the route of the marathon to follow specifically a women's march that happened um in the 5th of october 1789 and it was um it was this enormous congregation of thousands of women who were also joined by men it's important to say and they marched to versailles to kind of bring the king back to the Tuileries and demand fairer things, right?

And it was that march that led the king, Louis XVI, to finally agree to ratify the Universal Declaration of Rights of Men and Citizens. So it's a really important history of this country, of the rights of men and women, and they changed the Marathon route to reflect that, which I think was lovely. And then the last thing they did was open it up to the public.

It's the very first time that normal civilians like you and I can run the same route as these top performing athletes. And it's a really hard one because it's hilly and it's got ups and downs, but it was lovely to see Parisians join into that sporting energy as well. I'll be cheering you on from the side Laura if

you decide to do that. Before I let you go do you have a female athlete that particularly shone through for you in this Olympics? Oh my god. Sorry I'm putting you on the spot. It's really hard to pick. I'm gonna can I pick two? I'm gonna pick two. Right okay so it's two women who did something historic for their country again from my part of the world. So Adriana Ruano won Guatemala's first ever gold medal. They didn't have one. They'd only won two medals. She won a gold and did it fantastically. She's also a retired gymnast. She wanted to come to the Olympics as a gymnast, got injured, couldn't do it, decided to switch around, try sporting shooting. And that's how she's won her medal. And she loves the Olympics so much that she volunteered to be, she registered to be a volunteer before she knew if she would qualify. And then she qualified and won gold

and still went on to volunteer. It was incredible. She was the volunteer in the pentathlon. And really quickly, Francisca Croeto-Scherin, who won the first gold medal for a woman in Chile, also in shooting. And it was just like a brilliant time

to see them both shining for their countries. Wonderful stuff. Laura Garcia from BBC Mundo joining us on Woman's Hour. Find her little videos online as well. She's just fantastic social media presence. Thanks, Laura, for spending some time. Right. I do see a lot of people.

Iona Mar is getting a lot of votes here. Rugby Sevens bronze medalist. She's so funny on social media. She promotes body positivity, strength, speed, brains and beauty combined. Keep them coming. 8-4-4-4

Now I want to turn to one of the most influential women in the tech industry who has sadly died over the past week. It is Susan Wojcicki. She's a former CEO of YouTube. She was one of Google's earliest employees

and she died on Friday at the age of 56 from lung cancer. Sheryl Sandberg, the former chief operating officer at Meta, played tribute to Susan Wojcicki on Instagram writing, as one of the most important

women leaders in tech, the first to lead a major company, she was dedicated to expanding opportunities for women across Silicon Valley. I don't believe my career would be what it is today without her unwavering support. Well, I'm joined now by Professor Gina Neff, Executive Director at the Mindrew Centre for Technology at the University of Cambridge. Good to have you back with us, Professor. A lot of people won't be familiar with the name Susan Wojcicki.

Tell me a little bit just how significant she was, however, to the world of tech. Susan Wojcicki's story really is the story of the extraordinary growth of Silicon Valley. She was at the center of making Google the BMF it is today. And we don't know her name. Most people outside of tech don't know her name. She's incredibly important. Well, it's interesting, right? I mean, so she came to go, she was at Google for 25 years. She led YouTube until she stepped away for health reasons about two years ago. She led YouTube since 2014. So saw this extraordinary rise of online video, of smartphones now that we all have video on our phones. Think about the role that YouTube has played over the last decade. The Black Lives Matter movement, the shooting of George Floyd, the kind of hashtags and videos. And now that we have kind of vlogs and all of this work that has happened in video form, YouTube has been at the center of that.

And Susan Wojcicki was there. She made the company through that explosive period of growth. Another thing most people don't know about Susan was her extraordinary role of building the ad tech ecosystem in Silicon Valley. She did that at Google, which means Google became this enormous power in advertising and marketing, in part because she was there. She was the first head of marketing at Google. Let's remember, in a world where we talk about this is somebody who came into tech being able to translate across teams and priorities, came into tech understanding how people were going to use tech, and came into tech understanding marketing, writing, journalism. Basically, she helped make the business side of Google. One of the things that she's really credited for in 2006, that's when Google bought YouTube.

But five years earlier, they bought DoubleClick. And she was at the center of their buying DoubleClick. Now, most people won't have heard of DoubleClick, but it was the first company that helped companies do online advertising. And it's what made the Google market so... It's so interesting. Her mother has been on the programme previously, actually, about raising successful children, which, of course, she very much did.

I read her mother was also known as the godmother of Silicon Valley. So I suppose this legacy that has continued. But I was also interested in the personal life of Susan because such a paucity of women in the field, still really, we could say. And I saw that she had a number of children. I think she was the first Google employee to take maternity leave.

I mean, that is quite a trail to blaze. That's right. She was a mother of five children. And, you know, and bless, you know, Esther Wachowski, her mother wrote this book, How to Raise Successful People. She has two extraordinarily, leaves behind two extraordinarily accomplished sisters. Her sister, Anne, is the head of the direct consumer genetics company, 23andMe. Her sister, Janet, is an epidemiologist at one of the top medical schools and professor at one of the top medical schools in the US, University of California, San Francisco. And no parent should have to bury a child. That said, you know, she advocated so strongly for her family. She advocated so strongly for the fact

for women to be able to be in Silicon Valley and work these jobs, to be able to have paid parental leave in a company like Google. And she was a trailblazer for women in leadership in these companies. I think the narrative we tell about Silicon Valley is about male, often white founders who have a singular vision and they enacted on their own. And Susan Wojcicki had a very different kind of career path. She joined a company, she built it with the CEOs, and she saw key opportunities and leveraged those to make the company better. That is leadership. She took on YouTube, the CEO of YouTube, she was called the most important woman in advertising.

I just think it's amazing that we just didn't have her name on the tip of our tongue, considering YouTube feels that we are surrounded by it. Is it true Google started in her garage? That's right. She rented her garage to the founders of YouTube. And so by the time she joined the company, she was working at Intel, the chip company, and a semiconductor company. And she quickly joined with Google. And by the time she joined, they had actually got office space. But yes, it was her Silicon Valley garage that was the famed garage in Google's history.

A life and legacy. I was also interested to say that, you know, she had children and she very much spoke about how the kids helped her do her job. You know, she could figure out exactly what the kids were watching on YouTube. And I suppose then implement that into her strategy at work. Professor Gina Niff, Executive Director of Mindrew Centre for Technology at the University of Cambridge. Thank you so much. As we speak about Susan Wojcicki,

the former CEO of YouTube, who sadly has died at the age of 56 from lung cancer. I want to read out some of your messages that are coming in about your favourite female athlete at these Olympics. Bridie Page for trampoline, her thrill, her tears, her bonny outlook and singing the national anthem. That one from Gillie.

Thanks for that. A favourite Olympian of either sex, she says the wonderful Emily Campbell who embodies all that the Games should be about. That one is from Jeff. Yes, indeed. Emily got a bronze, The last GB medal of the Games last night. Keep them coming.

8-4, 8-4-4. Right. Next week is Listener Week. If you've been listening to me talking about Listener Week and you've been thinking, I have an idea, I really must. Now is the time. You need to do it now or it's not going to happen. You have to text

Women's Hour on 84844 or on social media it's at BBC Women's Hour or you can email us through our website. If you're new to this idea this is when our listener

is the producer is at the centre of the stories. You suggest them we create them and then we hear the voices that you want to hear. There might be somebody

that you really feel we should be speaking to or an idea or a discussion. Whatever it is we want to hear. There might be somebody that you really feel we should be speaking to or an idea or a discussion. Whatever it is, we want to hear it. 84844. Looking forward to hearing

all your ideas. Now, let me turn to sport again. How's this for alliteration? Going to the Paris Paralympics while pregnant. That is what my next guest is doing. Team GB's Jodie Grinham

is already a silver medalist in archery from the Rio Games in 2016. This year, she hopes to medal again at the Paris Paralympics, which start in just a couple of weeks time. Jodie has already made history, however, being the first British woman to compete at a Paralympic Games

while pregnant. She'll be 28 weeks pregnant to be exact. Jodie, welcome to Woman's Hour. Hi, thank you for having me. So how did it feel watching the Olympics knowing that you're up next? Do you know what? I love doing it because not only do I get that vibe and I get that automatic encouragement, but it gives me a chance to scope out where we're going to be competing where we're going to be competing because we're going to be competing exactly the same archery range.

Then I get to have a look at where the crowds are going to be, where the sun is. And I use it to my own advantage as well, definitely as like a pre-games to my games. Well, you are definitely in the zone now. I mentioned you're pregnant. Any changes you've had to make make because of that

yes so like my quiver belt so obviously our arrows go in our quiver that helps us hold them and that hasn't been able to fit so I very much find and adjust and get a belt that adjusts as I grow it's also meant that I've had to wear it a bit lower down, which I'm not used to, because then it adjusts like my bow height of how I hold it. I think another one's been kit. So my belly is growing, which means I need bigger and baggier tops. However, my shoulders aren't at the same level of growth, should I say, as my belly. So I get quite baggy up here. So I've had to adjust and wear like a guard that pulls all the clothing in and you're pointing at your shoulder and armpit yes yeah for our radio listeners um so what did you think when you realized the timing of the pregnancy and the games um believe it or not the pregnancy's planned I think that it or not, the pregnancy is planned.

I think that's like one of the biggest shocks that people find. You know, it wasn't like, oh my gosh, I'm pregnant. How am I going to do it? It was very much we made the decision that we wanted another baby and we weren't going to let the games stop us. You know, we had our son nearly two years ago. In order for us to get pregnant it wasn't easy you know we lost three we tried and it just it wasn't working for us and we tried to hold off

till after tokyo anyway but then it got postponed and you know think things happen in life and it's not as simple as just you click your fingers and you can fall pregnant for some women and we made the decision that for Paris, we weren't going to go through that again. You know, I'm 31. I'm not saying that that's old. I'm not saying that's young, but women have a clock. And I don't want to be in the position where the older I get, I'm holding off having a family for my career. why can't I have both so we we had a cut off I didn't want to be at Paris you know in my in my first trimester just with sickness and everything else that comes with it but yeah we we tried and we hoped for the best and if it happened great if it didn't we would

just continue trying um until until we were lucky enough to fall with our little kinder egg surprise that we've got now. Well, congratulations on that. And I'm sorry for your previous losses. But are there health considerations to think about for competing while pregnant? So there's a few things. So, for example, you know, like gym workouts or raising my heart level. So any time I've been doing any activities like that i've worn like a heart rate monitor so they can just monitor to make sure my heart rate isn't going to go too high so it's not going to stress the baby and same with temperatures obviously i'm already getting quite hot normally and getting sweaty because gym i'm working out

the weather let alone being pregnant that adds like a completely different temperature to your body anyway so we've been very much doing like heat sessions to get me ready because Paris seems to be a lot hotter than people predicted so we're in a position where we're able to use the information that we've had and help me do those sessions get them planned so yeah they've been brilliant you know medical team's been fantastic I've got an amazing world-class program here that is full of you know amazing coaches and medical staff we've got an amazing new facility with you know we're funded by UK sport by the national lottery so I'm extremely lucky to have the people here that can help me do all these things and you will be 28 weeks as I mentioned do you have to keep in mind what if

the baby decides to come early yes so we we very much have like backup plans um with my first pregnancy it was not it was not a walk in the park I was on bed rest I was very very poorly um we had like ABO incompatibility you know i was very sick i went and started to go into early labor at 28 weeks with my first so these are things that we've obviously had to think about and the precautions we put in place so we have we you know we've gone through like a to z of backup plans or what if planning it's been one of those ones where i know where the nearest like maternity units are or hospitals because just in case you know something happens where can I get that specialist medical treatment it's not

going to be as simple as an injury this will be something where I need medical assistance immediately so yeah they have been great the BPA have been amazing you know the British Paralympic Association have looked into all this to make sure I'm happy with what can be offered while I'm out there. So, yeah, it's definitely things that we've had to look at. It's so interesting. We were speaking earlier

just about women getting the opportunity to compete in the Olympics. That's, you know, less than 100 years. So to hear your story, it just kind of gives an illustration of

how far we have come and how much progress there has been um how did you realize you were going to be a world-class archer um it was never in the plan you know it wasn't something that i it wasn't because you sound to me like a woman that makes plans i i do i do i i am very much you know every everything is planned in my life and i don't know what i'm doing when i'm doing it and you know everything's structured but you know when it when it came to this it was it was not and I that's probably one of the reasons I love it so much is the you know spontaneousness

of it just being thrown into my life but it was very much you know my dad did archery I'd go and watch I had no interest you know to me as a teenage girl it looked it looked boring I wasn't gonna lie I was very used to to doing things like running or football, things that seemed more energetic, whereas archery seems quite static. You stand in one spot, you shoot, you come back. It's very repetitive, which people could argue that it's a different skill set and everything else, and I just wasn't interested. However, it was only until somebody

at my dad's club had said due to my disability that I wouldn't be able to do archery anyway that that sort of twisted then my interest as such so I wanted to prove him wrong that I could actually do it and being being the stubborn miss that I am my dad and I spent many weeks to a few months chopping up bits of equipment and stuff, making sure that I'd be able to hold the bow. And the rest is history. You know, I got onto my county, which is Sussex squad as a junior. My coach realized I had a disability and she, you know, tried to nudge me towards the para archery team up at GB because they were holding talent days and scouting and I had no interest I said no wasn't you know I didn't see myself as disabled I wasn't going to be told that I couldn't do things because I had a disability and my dad tricked me

and told me we were going to a competition and turned up at the talent day and really from there the rest the rest is history I just I love it I love meeting the people I love traveling the world doing I have a job that I love and I'm lucky to do this I'm so interested in a couple of aspects so the condition you have is called brachysyndactyly is that I'm pronouncing it correctly um but also that you were convincing yourself or trying to convince others that you were not disabled do you want to talk to me a little bit about that and also perhaps a little about your condition for people that aren't familiar yes of course so um i was born with a condition where i have no fingers on my left hand and my thumb is a half a thumb so there's

like only a bone in a little bit so it's mostly just flesh my forearm isn't developed properly so it's a different length to my right it goes up into my left shoulder my left shoulder is undeveloped and missing sections which then also come down into the left side of my body and chest into my hip um which is quite interesting because it wasn't spotted on any of my scans when you know when my mom was having me and even after I was born the doctors didn't notice it once my dad was getting ready to take me home and getting me dressed that my dad noticed there was an issue and then I got whisked away because they just thought I was holding a fist in my hand and it was unexplored

so it's things even then going back 30 years that my you know my disability didn't have enough knowledge so it's crazy how times have changed so then moving on from my disability I then went into different schools and I was bullied constantly you know I've been pushed in front of cars for being different and you know looking different and no one's ever going to want to be with me and it it was horrendous being a child growing up you know it was it was the heightened state of bullying you know it was physical it was verbal it was you know and I moved schools I you know made new friends constantly that actually the idea of now competing as a disabled woman to me me, sounded awful

because I was then going to promote the thing that I was getting bullied for. Right, I understand. Nobody wants to promote the negativity in their life, you know, that they want to hide it away. And a lot of time in my early career, I'd wear a sleeve over my hands so people wouldn't be able to see my hand

and, you know, just to stop comments or stares and it was only actually until I got to Rio in 2016 that I met all these amazing athletes with all these different disabilities and even if someone has the same disability as me it's different nobody is the same in this world I and I was talking to identical twins and they're like yeah we look exactly the same but our fingertips identical twins and they're like yeah we look exactly the same but our fingertips are different and it was like oh my god no one in this world is the same why why can't we just accept that that it sort of helped me understand myself a bit and I think that brought my confidence out that helped me mentally you know I'm in definitely a better

place than I am I don't feel like I'm having to try and hide myself. I can be me, which is a big, big part of, you know, if you're trying to compete, the last thing you want to be doing is being body or self-conscious. So, yeah, it's been an amazing journey, which is negativity to now positive, which is great. It is great. And, you know, you talked about not wanting to stand out. Our listeners can't see it, but I can that your hair is pink at the crown going down into a purple

and then finally blue. It's quite long. It's probably, I don't know, is it waist length? I can only see part of the screen. Yeah, it's about ribs. Okay. Keeping it that colour for Paris?

Yes, I am. It looks good. We will definitely be able to spot you, JG Graham. I wish you lots of luck in both the games and also your new baby that is on the way.

Thank you so much for coming on Women's Hour. Just before I let you go, do you have a female athlete that you were rooting for particularly in the Olympics just gone? I was actually. So there is a female athlete called Bryony Page for particularly in the olympics just gone i was actually so there is a female athlete called briny page she is a trampolinist and she actually won trampolines first medal in rio we she got silver i got silver which we train here at lillishall together which is incredible then she went to tokyo and got bronze and then

she's just obviously gone to paris she's 33, which people are already, you know, questioning over the fact that a gymnast at 33 is almost unheard of. But then she went and became Olympic champion just to prove that age is just a number. How fantastic is that? We love it. Jodie Grinnum, thank you so much for joining us on Women's Hour. I've been asking you your thoughts on what woman you have been rooting for maybe somebody you discovered or somebody you became a huge fan of. Emily Campbell another vote for Emily Campbell from Catherine

Sheffield, complete legend. I'm a 46 year old woman. I love to do and would love to do Olympic weightlifting. I joke I'm only 100 kg behind Emily in the clean and jerk. The strength of that woman is incredible. Plus, what a hairstyle. Yeah, that's right. She had the Olympic rings in the back of her hair. And if you saw that photograph, you won't have to go too far online to find it. 84844 if you'd like.

I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. Get in touch. Now, to a woman who was behind The Wicker Man. She's largely been forgotten in this part of British horror film history.

Horror fans have probably seen The Wicker Man, but if you haven't, here's the synopsis. A police officer investigates the disappearance of a child on a Scottish island, but soon it opens up a world of sinister villagers, paganism, stars Sir Christopher Lee, and there's also that terrifying burning effigy. You might have seen that at some point. The film is cult status now,

but when it was first released in 1973, it was this huge flop. And the repercussions for the director, Robin Hardy, and his family were devastating. I'm joined now in the studio by his son, Justin Hardy, who's also a filmmaker. He has made a documentary, Children of the Wicker Man, that explores the personal legacy of this film and also his mother's hidden role in making it. Welcome to Women's Hour, Justin. Hello.

Good to have you with us. I mentioned that the film devastated your family. How? Well, it bankrupted us. It bankrupted my mother, who had put a lot of money into the film, which we only just discovered by going through the financial documents. And then dad left and we didn't hear from him for five years. And my mother unfortunately became iller and iller with an addiction and then died rather young. So I don't have very much reason to love or thank the Wicca man. Let us talk about your mother.

I saw she died when she was 51. I'm thinking you must have been very young at that stage. I wasn't very young, but I was at a delicate age in that I was 18. That is young to lose your mother. Yeah, I mean, and, and I, I had, I had really been rescued by kind of school, you know, I just went to school and tried to get away from this addiction that I mean, she was drunk by lunchtime every day. And, and luckily, I was able to emerge into a relatively bright new life. And she died of cirrhosis of the liver.

Have I got that correct? Yeah, she did. She went yellow. Because of alcoholism. But let us talk about your mother and the film. You mentioned briefly there that you came across these financial documents that showed actually her involvement and financial involvement in this film that so many people love at this stage 50 years later. How did you come across them?

I really wasn't intending to to make the film at all. OK. Because, you know, dad has had, you know, just before he died, I'd had plenty of love for the film. But I got sent this letter during COVID from an old lady who said, I used to live in your mother's house that she moved to in the Midlands. And I've got these sacks of letters that pertain to the Wicker Man. Would you like me to burn them? Or would you like me to send them over? And to be honest, it took a while to decide which way to go.

I really didn't intend to return to the subject. And anyway, so they were brought to me by my younger sister who had lived with us. And I summoned an older sibling. We're one of eight children. Dad just kept on spawning them. And we unpacked these boxes one by one. And frankly, our jaws started to hit the floor as we found the stuff. Did you realize that your mother had invested so much money into the film?

No, I mean, the whole point of our film was going in search of dad. What we then discovered was his debts. And as we started, of course, you look at documents that are financial documents, and you don't think they're interesting. Until as a historian, you start to realize that actually the clues of the past lie in those. And we started to find dad accruing more and more debt as he was making the film to the point where he had owed mum over £30,000, which in today's money is nearly a million. And there was this realisation

that there was this story that had never been told, that she was truly bankrolling the deal. Did she ever talk about it to you, Justin? Never. I mean, again, it's amazing. After he left, she closed down about the whole subject on Dad. She didn't want to talk about the film. It was as if she knew that it had been a failure, that it somehow reflected on her. And she didn't want to discuss it, nor indeed, the fact that she'd put lots of well, pretty much her entire fortune into it. And you are trying to shine a light on her

role, I think now. I'm absolutely now committed to surfacing her. I'm surfacing her commitment. I mean, it's a tragedy that she died aged 51 without knowing that The Wicker Man had been a great success, that in fact her investment had been a really wise choice. I also believe that you'd like to see her get an executive producer credit. But I'm wondering,

because The Wicker Man lives on, you don't have to go very far to find it online and people continue to watch it and there's festivals and whatnot about it. What about the royalties, I was thinking? What about if the money was put in? What about the money coming out? Oh, my goodness.

I mean, literally one of the great unanswered truths is that there is no money. Money does not flow out. There is a company called Studio Canal, which bless them, you know, have the rights to the Wicker Man. And I think that, you know, they do pretty well out of it. They are, by the way, the ones that we would need to convince to give mum the retrospective executive producer credit. And I don't have any response from Studio Canal on their thoughts on the Wicker Man or on the thoughts of an executive producer credit for that. But I'm wondering, have you changed? Because you came in telling me just how devastating this film was to you and your family. And I can understand that.

And your father, as you said, was married a number of times and left you and your mother for a number of years. But have you come full circle with the film at all? You did have a cameo in it, right? Oh, what a cameo in the actual movie. Yes, I mean, so I was 10. I was taken into a place that I now know to be Delane Lee, the iconic Delane Lee, where I was asked to record a line,

we bring death out of the city. And sure enough, my voice is in there over the voice of perfectly respectable Scottish voices, which they should have been. I mean, you know, I mean, I don't know what dad was on, frankly. Have you forgiven your father yes I think that two years of making a film about a person enables you

to see them in the round and if you're wise you won't let the negativity drag you down you know he did have you know if you were really balancing it out in terms of goals there's quite a lot of bad to measure with the good. But I'm clinging to the good. My brother who went on the journey with me. That's Dom or Dummy as you call him. Really helped. My university team at UCL and

Birmingham that worked with me to make this film. They all helped to just say, Justin, look at this in the round. Put yourself back together. Your dad made an amazing film. Kind of get over it. And also maybe knowing because you had a good relationship, my understanding with your mother, you know, you see her in a favorable light. I mean, the fact that she was a producer, as you see it on this film, can it make you love the film more?

I think if I can just address the mother issue first, I didn't really have much relationship with my mother because, as I say, she was not really present for much of the day. But I do have an older sister who did come to see me. And I remember now what I didn't understand then. Her saying to me, you do realize that your mother loves you very, very much and is really proud of you. She just can't tell you it herself. Does that enable me to see the Wicker Man in a different way? I think the Wicker Man, which I never really fully understood

and I thought was just plain weird, I now see it as being weird in a good way. I see it as being a genre-busting mad thing. It's quite mad. It is quite mad when you watch it. Well, best of luck with your documentary, Children of the Wicker Man. And the reason I thought a good relationship

is because you were doing all this work to get Caroline recognised, who is your mother. Thank you, Justin Hardy. And his documentary will premiere at the Film Festival Fright Fest in London on the 23rd of August. Thanks for all your messages

coming in, Shining Olympic athlete Tara Davis Woodall. US long jump, gold medal, her joyous trackside celebration caught my attention. The commentator mentioning her husband

would be competing in the Paralympics. That made me Google her. And the story of each of them separately and together touched me deeply. Oh, another one for Emily Campbell. Keep them coming. 8-4, 8-4-4.

Right. Mary Bridget Davis is in front of me. She's an American singer and actress. She has her own band, the Mary Bridget Davis Group, but is also an interpreter of the music of the iconic Janis Joplin. She is about to perform in a new musical, A Night with Janis Joplin. That's going to be fun at London's Peacock Theatre. It's a role she previously played on Broadway,

receiving a Tony Award nomination for Best Lead Actress in a Musical. The show is about the life of Janis and her musical influences and includes the iconic hits, Peace of My Heart, Cry Baby, Me and Bobby McGee. We're going to talk about that in a moment. Janice, sadly, she died at the age of 27. That was back in 1970. But the legacy, the music, it lives on.

I want to know, Mary Bridget, how does it feel to play somebody who's such a huge figure? I mean, so many songs for somebody so young as well. Right. Well, this is, as I joke, I was raised on the best music. This is my parents' generation. This was their music. And so I was exposed to the blues and Janice. As soon as I, like I say, I had audible memories.

So I was a fan first. So then I got the job, which was amazing. But I know for a fact that her fans are so diehard because I was one as well. So it's such a, it's a, it's a responsibility to play her more so than a fictional character, for example. She, she lived, she breathed, she changed people's lives in the short time that she was famous. And like you say, the legacy, she's still famous. She's just not here to enjoy it. You know, it was only two and a half years that she was alive to really hit that height of fame and really ride it out. So tell us, I mentioned that she died at 27. Tell us a little bit more about her, particularly perhaps for some of our younger listeners.

Oh, sure. So she was the oldest of three kids from a sleepy oil refinery town in Port Arthur, Texas, and had dreams of, you know, just doing more. She loved art, poetry, the beatnik movement, which was before the hippies. Like a lot of people don't understand that hippie was a derogatory term coined by the beatnik, you know, like the Jack Kerouac and everybody like that. And so Janice wanted to be, you know, like them, like the older kids. And she had made a pilgrimage, if you will, to San Francisco before she met Big Brother and the Holding Company. And as more of like a folk artist is how she started. You know, she was an instrumentalist. I often thought of her as folky, actually.

Yeah. And she could play guitar. But because when she became famous, she was a front person. A lot of people didn't know that. So, you know, she was very introspective, very well read, an intelligent, sarcastic, witty girl, you know, kind of like an odd duck and awkward. And, and she went into San Francisco, and it just didn't really pan out for her. And then she was like, Oh, my gosh, maybe I am just going to go back home and be normal. And so she tried her hardest. She went to secretary school. You know, she dated a square. Yeah, you can find these pictures. And she just looks like, and you can see it in her face. You

know, she's smiling, but you can see in her eyes like this is not what I want. And so she went back to San Francisco a few years later. And then that's when she met Big Brother in the holding company. And that's when her star caught in. And then she became the literal first female rock and roll star, you know, because a lot of times the women that were involved in rock and roll groups at the time were like a co-star. It wasn't their band. They split the lead role with another man or they stood in the backgrounds waving a tambourine and singing backup vocals. And so she was the first one. I think I was reading about it that she loved Tina Turner. Loved. And they were like, you mean Ike and Tina. And she said, no, no, no, just Tina. Yeah, that's my favorite. That's a

Dick Cavett interview. And they had such no, no, no, just Tina. Yeah, that's my favorite. That's a Dick Cavett interview. And they had such a wonderful banter together. Like they really respected each other. And he would let her actually speak, you know, in these interviews and stuff. And it just showed glimmers of how intelligent she was. Who were her other musical influences? So she, like I said, it was like country music folk. Like she said, you know, I played a country hillbilly music is what she called it. But she loved Lead Belly, who is a black American blues artist. And she loved Odetta, who is a black folk artist. And in that time, and in the culture in America, those were called race records, and they were not wildly produced or distributed. So there was this

old like Ted's record right, in their town, and you would go in for the new releases on Saturdays, and there was, like, a back room where these, like, oh, this very risque music. And, you know, so she and her friends would just trade 45s, you know, singles of, like, these artists

that, like, Chicago Blues and stuff like that, that she loved Bessie Smith, you know. There's an interesting story about Bessie Smith. Sure. That I was reading about, that she loved Bessie Smith, you know. There's an interesting story about Bessie Smith. Sure. That I was reading about that she bought her a headstone. Yes.

So Bessie Smith actually, and we touch on that in the show, due to race relations in the States at that time, she fell ill and she was driving from a gig in Mississippi and stopped at a hospital for treatment and they denied her treatment and they turned her away and she in turn passed. And she was, and I'm sorry if I got the wrong record label, it was either Columbia or, I feel like it was Columbia Records. Bessie was like their biggest selling artist and everything. And she had made all this money, but she had so many personal problems. And so by the time she passed away, she was like penniless, and she was buried in an unmarked grave, literally. And then, you know, Janice found this out later in life. And she the headstone says, you know, here lies Bessie Smith, the best blues singer in the world. But she didn't tell anybody. It was just from her, you know, a gift from Janice to Bessie. It wasn't

about like the, you know, admiration she might receive from people like, oh, how nice of you. She did it because she meant it. What's so interesting to me about that when I was reading it is she was so young when she did that. I mean, this kind of maturity of what legacy or recognition or respect would be for another artist. How do you get into the zone when you're getting ready to play Janice? What do you do? Well, I love the same stuff. So like a lot of actors will be like, oh, I listen to, you know, who I'm playing or whatever.

I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. I'll listen to Lead Belly. Because like really it's like the second you open your eyes, I'll like check my voice and be like, where am I at today? You know, like, do I need like my allergy nasal spray or do I need to work because I have a show later? So like, but as soon as we're back at work, like my life is completely changed, you know, and the trajectory of my day is completely changed because I know, you know, at 730 or at eight o'clock, you know, I become her. And the beauty of it is, is when you put that costume on and all those bangles and all those beads and all that, it's like she takes over you. I made this joke, but it's really the most relatable way that I could say it in that movie Avatar when they find their flying mount, you know, and they actually like tether themselves together.

And there's like a conduit between like they don't even have to talk. They can like read each other's minds kind of thing. That's how it feels. It's like it's like she kind of like checks in for the night you know and i'm like just take my vessel go ahead because there's sometimes like people like did you know you did this in ball and chain i'm like nope i don't remember that you know you're in the moment you're in the zone just surrender um you're gonna perform oh i'm so excited about this me and bobby mcgee yes i love that song. I do too.

Like I said, I was a fan first. And it's never gotten old. I love this job. It's so much fun. Tell me about it. Written by Chris Christopherson? Yeah. And they were dear friends. And she had a really beautiful home in Larkspur, just north of San Francisco.

And she had kind of created an environment where, because he was an up-and-coming songwriter at the time, everybody would just hang out at her house and create. And he had written that, and her being a Texan and it being kind of like a country folk number, she'd been doing the psychedelic stuff and whatever for so long. She's like, actually, I like this, Chris. I think I'm going to do this one. He's like, you do what you want. And it became one of her biggest hits, and that album was released after she passed, you know, so she didn't even get to enjoy that.

You're going to be joined by Tim Bloomer on guitar and you must be in the full throws. I'll let you get over to the microphone for full throws for rehearsals. Oh, yeah, they're already there. I'm going as soon as I'm done here. OK, get over to that microphone. That is Mary Bridget Davis. I mentioned Tim Bloomer will We'll be accompanying her. And here's me and Bobby McGee

by Janis Joplin. Wonderful stuff. Mary Bridget Davis, come over to me and Tim Bloomer on Guitar A Night with Janis Joplin is at London's Peacock Theatre from the 21st of August

until the 28th of September 2024. You say you're in rehearsal. So what are you going to do after this? Which after? Like right now? Yeah. Go to rehearsal. So what are you going to do after this? Which after? Like right now? Yeah, so you go to rehearsal. Yeah. Do you have a favorite song?

Maybe. The name of the tune is Maybe. It was a 1950s Chantel's doo-wop song that Janice turned into an absolutely massive R&B soul. Just a heart-wrenching, beautiful song. And when people go, are they sitting, watching? At first. And then? They get up. They get up, they clap, and that's song. And when people go, are they sitting, watching? At first. And then?

They get up. They get up, they clap, and that's the end. And we want them to know. And it's great because I'm like the emcee of the night as Janice. So I'm talking directly to the audience, but we mean it when we're like,

we want you to get up, we want you to sing, we want you to clap, we want that, you know. I did not sing along. I didn't want to subject this to that on a Monday morning. But thank you very much for coming in.

Of course, of course. Thanks for having us. A night with Janice Joplin, I mentioned, at the London's Peacock Theatre. Right, I want to let you know objected to that on a Monday morning but thank you very much for coming in. Of course, of course. Thanks for having us. A night with Janice Joplin I mentioned at the London's Peacock Theatre. Right, I want to let you know that tomorrow I'll be speaking to

the award-winning actor Romola Garai about her latest role in the years and to the author Rebecca Watson. I hope you will join me for that.

I just want to read out some of your other comments. Let me see. Beth Schreber, that was the athlete that somebody wanted to point out for her attitude after winning

all of her heats in semi-finals and then coming last in the finals she says I'm happy I'm healthy I have my family

and my friends great perspective also another it's wonderful to hear Paralympian Archer Jodie on today's programme my dear friend

was Valerie Williamson who was one of the first women archers in the GB Paralympian team and won silver at Barcelona. She sadly died last December, but she'd be so proud of where the sport is now

and that Jodie is carrying the baton for them. I will talk to you tomorrow. Thanks so much for spending part of your day with Woman's Hour. Don't forget, Listener Week next week. That's all for today's Woman's Hour.

Join us again next time. Hello, I'm Greg Jenner. I'm the host of You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy show that takes history seriously. And we are back for series eight, starting with a live episode recorded at the Hay Literary Festival, all about the history of the medieval printed book in England. Our comedian there is Robin Ince. And then we'll be moving on to the life of Mary Anning, the famous paleontologist of the 19th century, with Sarah Pascoe. Then it's off to Germany in the 1920s for an episode on LGBTQ life in Weimar, Germany, with Jordan Gray.

And then we'll hop on a ship all the way back to Bronze Age Crete to learn about the ancient Minoans with Josie Long. Plus loads more. So if that sounds like fun, listen and subscribe to You're Dead to Me on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service,

The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.