Woman's Hour - Parenting a child with a stammer, EHRC Chair Baroness Falkner, Ukrainian chess player Kamila Hryshchenko

Episode Date: November 28, 2023

Research by the charity Stamma shows that 8% of children will start stuttering at some point. Our listener Geri, a mother who’s son has a stammer, got in touch with Woman’s Hour and asked us to discuss the topic. Kirsten Howells from Stamma, Tiktokker Jessie Yendle and Geri join Claire McDonnell to share their own experiences and advice.In 2013 Benita Alexander was working as a producer at NBC in New York. Tasked with putting a documentary together on renowned Swiss surgeon Dr Paolo Macchiarini, the pair soon grew close and started dating. However, not was all what it seemed with both their relationship and the success of his surgical invention. Benita joins Claire McDonnell to tell her story, as featured in the new Netflix documentary, Bad Surgeon: Love Under The Knife?The UK’s Equalities and Human Rights Commission is being investigated by the UN over its position on “biological sex” and the provision of single-sex spaces. We talk to EHRC Chair Baroness Kishwer Falkner. Kamila Hryshchenko is one of the highest chess ranked players in England however until very recently she represented a different nation. Kamila and her mother were forced to flee their home nation of Ukraine during the outbreak of war in 2022 and it was chess that proved instrumental to securing Kamila and her mother’s safety. Kamila has chosen to now play for England and she joins Clare McDonnell.Presenter: Clare McDonnell Producer: Emma Pearce

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Claire MacDonald and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour. One of the UK's leading human rights groups is facing a challenge on its approach to human rights. The EHRC, the Equality and Human Rights Commission, is being challenged by trans rights groups led by Stonewall, that's the LGBT plus charity, on advice it gave to the UK government over how they should define the protected characteristic of sex. Now, if they lose that argument, it could mean they become mere observers at the UN Human Rights Council rather than participants. So we're going to hear from the chair of the EHRC, Baroness Kishwa Faulkner, on the programme today. Do you live with a stammer?

If you do, how do you cope? And what kind of help, if any, did you get as a child? One of our listeners, Geri, got in touch with us. Her eight-year-old son, Elliot, has a stammer and she's concerned about the lack of understanding and representation of the condition in our society. She will join us along with TikToker Jessie Yendell, who's been sharing her stammer story online to over two million followers. And also Kirsten Howells from the charity Stammer will be here as well. So if you have any questions or you need advice do text your questions in on this number

84844 text will be charged at your standard message rate on social media we are at bbc woman's hour and you can email us through the website or you can send us a whatsapp message or a voice note using the number 03700 100 444 Data charges may apply depending on your provider. So you might want to use Wi-Fi if you can. And terms and conditions can be found on our website. Also, we'll hear from one of the highest ranked chess players in England, who, with the help of the international chess community, managed to escape war-torn Ukraine and come to the UK. She's Kamila Herashchenko.

She was so grateful for the help she received, she's chosen to switch to play for England. And Kamila will join us live. And we will talk to the US journalist who, whilst telling the story of a pioneering surgeon and his groundbreaking regenerative transplant medicine, fell in love with him. Tragically for Benita Alexander

and the patients he operated on, all was not as it seemed. It's claimed Paolo Macchiarini carried out the biggest con in medical history. It's an incredible tale, as ex-fiance Benita will join us live on Woman's Hour this morning. So let's start with stammering.

Research shows that 8% of children will start stammering at some point. And although they can grow out of it, some do carry on into adulthood. Now, for many parents, this can often be a worrying experience, worrying how best to support their child. As I said, listener Geri wrote to the programme about exactly this. Her son Elliot has a stammer and she joins me now. Geri, welcome. Thank you.

Great to have you on the programme. Also joined in the studio by Kirsten Howells, Director of Services at the charity Stammer. Kirsten, good morning. Morning. And TikToker Jessie Yendall, who's been sharing her stammer story online to over 2 million followers. Jessie, hello. Hello, hello. Good morning.

It's fantastic. This is such an important conversation. So I'm so grateful you've all joined us this morning. Geri, let's start with you. You reached out to Woman's Hour. Tell us about your son. When did he first start to stammer? so Elliot stammered a little when he was kind of two or three um but it was really a couple of years ago when he was around five or six that we noticed he was stammering um and we didn't really know how to address it and we didn't really have any language and we kind of ignored it really and honestly hoped it would go away and at one point we realised he was stammering and he was becoming upset and it was the point at which his sister who was around four at the time said Elliot just say tree it's easy just say tree and we thought okay fine we

need to do something and so we looked online and we did find the stammer website and contacted our local stammer services and we've been linked in with them in Bristol for the past couple of years and they've been amazing and really supportive and it's really been a journey of understanding and discovery for us, learning to have the language to talk to Elliot about stammering, learning to take turns at home and learning to wait and it's difficult having a child who stammers because we want everything in the world to be easy for him as every parent wants for their child really but we want to support him in the best way possible and one of the things other than you know he he does stammer and he will probably continue to stammer um and things do fluctuate but i really wanted to raise awareness so i'm

really grateful for women's hour for having a section on stammering to enable people to learn a bit more about it and learn to wait for people who stammer well that is what we are here for today to sort of spread understanding because i believe jerry as well you're you're frustrated about not only the lack of understanding but but the lack of representation of people with stammer. And when they are represented, they're not always represented in a good light. No, and we became very mindful of this when Elliot, who's a prolific reader, began reading the Harry Potter series quite early. And in one of the books, Professor Quirrell has a stammer and he's portrayed as nervous and actually a baddie and actually commonly in lots of books people stammer in literature anyway when they're nervous and it's not necessarily related to that it

doesn't necessarily mean that someone is nervous or worried or anxious it's just a type of neurodiversity really, and another way of speaking. And we were conscious of how Elliot was reading and learning about stammer from that way. So, you know, that's another reason that I really wanted to raise awareness. And I do want to say I asked Elliot his permission for me to come on Woman's Hour, and he said, Oh, mum, bit embarrassing, but okay. And I asked him what he wanted me to come on Women's Hour. And he said, oh, mum, a bit embarrassing, but OK. And I asked him what he wanted people to know about his stammer. And he said he wanted people to know that it isn't the fault of the person who stammers that they stammer. And that's what he wanted to share. Well, it's so good to hear Elliot's voice as well.

And, Gerry, it sounds like you've had great advice from the woman sitting opposite me, Kirsten Howells, Director of Services at the charity Stammer. Kirsten, we heard some really important points there from Gerry. And one of the ones I took away from that is wait, have patience with people who stammer. So I guess that's so important, isn't it? Yeah, you're right. It is really important. And I think sometimes when people who don't stammer meet someone who does, they're taken by surprise. And people sometimes might try to help out. And the intent can be really good, but it's quite a common experience to find that people might try to finish off your sentences for you.

And obviously, you know, there are thousands, tens of thousands of people who stammer. We're all different. We all have different preferences. But the vast majority of people who stammer say that they'd like to speak for themselves and they just like that space to talk. And it was really interesting listening to Jerry about what that's like as a parent when you're first coming when you're first meeting you know your child has started stammering and trying to come to grips with how to react to that in a moment because I think Jerry's experience is really common we have a helpline at Stammer and 60% of our contacts at that helpline are from parents

and mostly from the parents of preschool children who are in exactly the situation Gerry's describing when the child is stammering and they don't know how to help. I guess that's so important, isn't it? Because your approach when your child is so young to this it kind of sets them on the path for the rest of their life doesn't it I mean you know how accepting or not you are of their condition. Very much so so you know for many of those children it will pass over time but for some of those children, it will pass over time. But for some of those children, it won't. And you're exactly right that we are setting them up to be confident communicators,

whether they're going to stammer or not, and creating space for them to use their voice and to celebrate their voice and to celebrate the content of what they're saying. It's a really important part of that. But it's very hard for parents because although there are loads of people who stammer we're not very visible in the media and it can make it feel for parents like actually it's very rare and they've not really come across it before because it's we don't see it on tv and we don't hear people who stammer on the radio very

often talking about something that's not stammering it's not all around us but if it was represented in those percentages if we saw eight percent of children on kids tv stammering both children and parents would have met stammering before and might not feel as helpless. And it would also show the rest of the world, actually with there, you just need to make space. It's not complicated. Just wait. Just wait. Jerry, I mean, I'm sure a lot of that rings true with you. When you go back to before you got the diagnosis, was that you? Were you the hurry up parent? Were you the kind of finish the sentence parent? Well, we have done. You know, you just want to help.

And when Elliot was struggling to finish his sentence, we would we would try and support him. And we were kind of we didn't want to make it a big deal. So we didn't know how to address it. And really the, you know, liaising with the stammering services has given us that language. And we have asked Elliot and said, Elliot, when you are stuck on your words, do you want us to help you try and find the word? And he said, no, I just want you to wait. And it was kind of a breakthrough that we had the language to ask him because we were kind of scared to address it, which sounds crazy, but it, you know, it's's it's been quite a journey for all of us and you know if you're not sure just ask it's okay if someone has a stammer to say you know is it all right what what do you want and that's that's okay as with any kind of difference it's almost the anxiety of getting things wrong not necessarily prejudice that that holds people back and the worry about putting

their foot in it let's bring in jesse now uh jesse yendall uh jesse i've been watching some of your videos on tiktok um you're an absolute legend you really are you've changed the game when it comes to representation of people with stammers but let's go back before we get on to that let's go back to um your childhood I mean it wasn't straightforward for you was it oh not at all not at all um so I remember um I remember as a child I was in a school and when it come to like the school a register i would get like that i would get the anxiety ready to say i like as you have to answer in like the english and then the welsh um and i remember when i went to answer a answer a a question at the teacher i would get so frustrated i would start to pull like my hair cwestiwn i'r hyfforddwr, byddaf yn cael fy nghyfrifol i ddechrau gwneud fy nghyfforddau. Ac roedd hynny'n gweithio ar y sgol. Ac roeddwn i'n cofio mynd i'r

ystafell hyfforddwr un diwrnod ac ydym yn meddwl, oh, ydw i mewn trwbwm? Ac mae'r dyn honno wedi dweud wrthi i mi fod gen i amgylch y sbeth a'i fod yn yr un peth ac roedd angen i mi fynd i therapiaeth sbeth. Felly, fe wnes i fynd i therapiaeth sbeth am lawer o flynyddoedd, hyd at i mi fod o amgylch 13. Ro I gave him my best shot and just... And it just wasn't for me, sadly. And I'm also noted that just reading your story, it wasn't just the register. I mean, you'd queue up in the lunch break, wouldn't you? And you might want to eat something different,

but you always stuck with the one thing that you knew you could say and so when it comes like the canteen and you'd have to go up to get your food and you'd have to tell like the dinner lady basically what you wanted um and I'll just go for the food which I was then able to say on the spot and then he'd go back to the table and he'd be like oh I don't really want this but I didn't want like the other kids to start laughing and that's what it is I like the education because um am I supposed to when you are in a primary school and even when it came to like when I went to high school and it's just the people aren't educated. And that's what I wanted to do, basically, with my TikTok and my platform is to educate people.

You've done it brilliantly and it's so accessible. So tell us about the drive through videos, first of all, because I know you've done loads. But this was the kind of breakthrough video wasn't it you didn't really have many followers on TikTok did you so but tell us about before this happened which is brilliant so tell us about that one. So basically I I was a support worker and I was finishing like my 24 hour shift and I was driving home and I thought I really want a nice iced coffee a nice drink um and like the drive-through and that was like my biggest like fear is you haven't got like the eye contact and and you're just speaking to like the

speaker box and then that person I can't tell uh if you are struggling and so and so i just built up this i just built up like i and i just built up like the fear of the drive-through um and just like one day i decided to do it i went around the drive-thru and it wasn't as bad as I thought it was going to be, to be honest with you. And when I came out the other side, I just felt so proud. And I knew that like, and I knew like my friends and my husband just wouldn't believe me. And that's why I decided to film here. I came home and I just put up onto my TikTok I only had like 20 followers like my friends and my family back then like and that was for me um and I guess that a lot of people could just like relate it's like the fear

of doing a pretty much anything as we all as we all have as we all have our own fears and and there's so many of us who have got anxiety so that was my first little challenge I suppose and after I did that challenge I was on a cloud nine. And that's when I decided to do like a random act of kindness challenge of going up to strangers, because that was my fear is to approach people and to speak to people. And as a child I would get like my brothers my sister to speak for me and then as I got as I got a lot older and and then I got my friends to speak to me and then at my husband I would be in the restaurant and he would be having to order my food for me. So I went out with a bunch of flowers and I was going up to people on the street as I was my fear to approach people and to speak people because of the judgment and the fear.

And you don't know their reaction. And when i saw people's reactions and they were patient with me and then i would let them know i've got a the the the damer and every single person that i have come across and they wanted to know more and And I guess that has helped my confidence. And I've made their day, as they've had a bunch of flowers, and they've got to know more about a stammer. Geri, how does it feel to listen to Jessie talking like this? And, you know, she had to wait a long time to kind of, you know, come out of the shadows herself. But does that give you heart for your son yeah it really it does it's so lovely

and I can't tell you how nice it is to hear people stammering on the radio it's just amazing and I can't wait to play this back to Elliot and uh Jessie we've shown Elliot some of your videos already um but you know to to say the speech and language therapy it sounds like you know that was a difficult experience for you the stammer team that we've been involved with it I think things have changed a lot and it's very much about education and maintaining confidence of speech and that you know rather than kind of there's something wrong with your speech and we need to fix it. It's very much not that anymore. So it's lovely to hear you talking and to hear what you're doing. Can't wait to tell Elliot more about it.

Thank you. And absolutely. And I couldn't agree more. And my quote, which I say to everyone is and and and nobody is you and that is your a superpower because when you go to speech therapy and they want to make you sound like a fluent speaker and and i don't and i don't agree with that anymore i really don't as it is as it is our superpower and we should be proud of it and not ashamed. Kirsten I wanted to put that point to you then um have has that kind of way of thinking moved on a lot with speech therapy over the years that um you know we're now approaching it in a different way not trying to kind of force people into a normal way of speaking i think certainly that there have been huge changes in approaches in speech therapy over the last sort of 10 to 20

years so um so so as jerry was saying we're seeing much more focus on that that environment and that understanding and that confidence building and that you know being able to to say what you want to say regardless of whether it's fluent or stammered and then being of of of really equal value and I think the next step in that work is making sure that and thinking of those examples from Jesse's school days that when um schools and businesses are setting up that those ways of working is making sure have we thought about people who stammer simple things like you know the the different ways that you might be able to respond to the register for example you know are we giving all children a choice so that they can

respond in the best way they want or are we channeling everybody into one way of doing something one way of opening a bank account one way of booking an appointment or are we making space for people who talk differently and also offering flexibility so people can do it in the way that's going to be most effective for them so anybody listening to this who's concerned about themselves because lots of we just have we've got loads of people texting in uh going through childhood and into adult life with with no help or parents listening uh with with children going through this what would your advice be who could they reach out to yourself i guess yes so stammer we've got a website which is stammer.org s-t-a-m-m-a but we also have a

helpline and a web chat and an email support service. So if you've got questions or you just want to chat, we can help direct you towards the services which are going to be the most relevant for you. So give us a call, web chat with us, email us. If you go to our website, you'll find the details on there. It's been absolutely wonderful having you all here. Just final words to you, Jessie. You got married and you never

thought you would did you because you just couldn't envisage yourself at the art at the altar saying the vows yeah so i remember i grew up i would tell my parents i don't ever want to walk down the aisle i don't get married and that was just purely because of my speech impediment and then I met and then I met a Josh and I told him and everyone get married he's like okay no problem um and then he proposed and I suppose I was like actually I really do um and and it was always something I never thought I was I was ever ever able to do and I thought of the worst case scenario of me not being able to speak or whatsoever as I got down the bottom of the aisle of them the day arrived and I absolutely smashed it and I took my headphones down the aisle with me as when you listen to music um and that and that can help my speech and so I took I took the headphones

down the aisle but I didn't even I need that I need the headphones in the end I was absolutely fine and I smashed my valves and it was the best day ever. Well, it's been a joy to have you on the programme, all of you. Thank you so much. A really important conversation. And you have heard Stammering on the radio here on Woman's Hour. We appreciate all of your time.

Geri, Woman's Hour listener, Kirsten Howells, Director of Services at the charity Stammer, and TikToker Jessie Yendle. Thank you so much for talking to us this morning. You can text in your experiences. Plenty of you are. Read some of those texts out shortly. This is the number you need, 84844.

Thank you so much for joining us, everybody. Now, we're going to take you back to 2013, when my next guest, Benita Alexander, a successful journalist at NBC in New York, had a story about regenerative medicine put on her desk, specifically the work of globally renowned surgeon Paolo Macchiarini. Originally from Switzerland, Dr. Macchiarini was making headlines with his invention of plastic windpipes soaked in patient stem cells that could then be used in transplants.

Well, seen as a miracle worker, Benita and her team followed him over a period of months as he prepared for a milestone operation. And the pair grew close, so close, in fact, that they soon embarked on a whirlwind romance, eventually engaged and set to be married by the Pope, nonetheless, in his summer residence. But as the wedding drew closer, all was not what it seemed.

It would end in the collapse of both their relationships and Dr. Macchiarini's career. Benita's story features in a new Netflix documentary, Bad Surgeon, which is out tomorrow. And she joins me now live from New York. Welcome, Benita. Thank you. Good morning. Thanks for having me. Listen, let's go. Let's take our listeners back to the beginning of this story. What were your first thoughts when you heard about Paolo and his work?

I mean, this was truly revolutionary, wasn't it? Exactly. I mean, he was doing something that was very admirable or seemed to be admirable. He was a pioneer in this very exciting field where they were moving towards a world where, you know, if something's wrong with you, you could basically order yourself a new body part from the lab, you know, and it would eliminate the need for organ donation, which there are a lot of problems with because people reject organs. And so he was, there was a lot of promise and hope attached to him. And he was sort of a rebel, you know, he was a daring rebel willing to push barriers to move medicine forward into the future. And we need people like that in medicine in order to make breakthroughs and move things forward. And

he seemed to be incredibly caring and devoted to his patients and to helping people who had no other hope. And, you know, his nickname was the super surgeon and the miracle man. And he was just incredibly intriguing because he was doing something that literally nobody else in the world was doing. So he was essentially creating plastic parts, mainly windpipes, soaking them in, he was saying he was soaking them in the patient's stem cells. And this way they could knit together with the body's internal workings. That was the theory, exactly. He was literally taking the windpipe and it almost looked like a straw, like a plastic tube. He was making an artificial windpipe out of plastic in the lab, the same plastic that water bottles are made out of, actually, and then bathing it in the patient's own stem cells in something that looked like a

chicken rotisserie. So imagine this plastic tube spinning and the patient's own stem cells were supposed to be, you know, integrating into it and bathing, you know, in it. And then when he surgically implanted it into the patient's body, the idea was that the stem cells would make this plastic windpipe magically integrate into the body and function as a normal windpipe, a normal trachea. And he was doing this at a world-renowned institution at Stockholm, wasn't he? Exactly, the place that awards the Nobel Prize in medicine. I mean, he had an incredible reputation. He was world-renowned. He was working all over the world. He was doing a clinical trial in Russia. He was operating on patients all over the world. People

were seeking him out to have the surgery. And he was, you know, he fit his name. He fit his name, the super surgeon. And people who were desperate, who had been told there was no other hope for them, there was nothing that anyone could do for them. They would find him online and he was their hope. He was their promise of having a longer life. And a lot of these people are featured in the documentary, which is one of the hardest things to watch. The people when they are still alive and full of hope. It's horrible. You know, I mean, it's extremely painful for me to watch personally. It's heartbreaking. I can't. I mean, what happened to me pales in comparison to what happened to

these people. I mean, people lost their lives. Families were destroyed. You know, I just it's unfathomable to me and unforgivable. I mean, it's just it's horrific. It's horrific. And they died horrible deaths. I mean, you know, painful, excruciating. Let's talk about you. And we will obviously definitely move on to talk about the patients as well. But you were making this documentary and falling for one another, as you say, a hugely charismatic man. And so you did, you started a relationship.

You didn't go public with it, did you, until you debuted your documentary? Yeah, you know, it was a difficult decision. I was, in hindsight, I was at a very vulnerable place in my life. My ex-husband, we had been divorced for a few years, and the father of our beautiful daughter was dying of brain cancer. And I was just struggling. You know, I knew the clock was ticking, and I was going to have to tell my daughter that her dad was going to die.

I mean, and she was very much, she was the epitome of daddy's little girl. And what was this going to mean for her life? What was this going to mean for our life moving forward? And when I first met him and we were working on the story, he seemed to be a very good listener. We just started talking. I just sort of started pouring my heart out to him. And what I was struck by initially was just how compassionate he was and how much he cared

for this little girl that he'd never met. And we were friends initially. And then, you know, particularly as I got closer and closer to my ex-husband passing away, Paolo was just so caring. And I think when you're vulnerable, what do you need? You need somebody to put their arms around you and tell you that everything's going to be OK. Right. And he was that person. And I but I was struggling because and I resisted as long as I could. But then I think just because of that, it was that simple. I was so vulnerable and he was so caring and I just fell for him, you know, and we, yeah, we fell in love, but we waited for a while to tell anyone because of that, because it was sort of a unwritten no-no in the world of journalism.

And you, well, he flew you around the world, this five-star lifestyle, just an incredible whirlwind romance. You got engaged. As the wedding approached, though, the wheels started to come off. Tell us when you realized that something was up. Yeah, I mean, he was the most romantic person in the world, which maybe should have been my first clue in hindsight. You know, he literally swept me off my feet. It was like romance on steroids. And

one of the interesting things about him, you know, many con artists, their motive is money. And that was not his goal. You know, he was exceedingly generous with me, my friends, my family, my daughter, you know, money was not his motive. And people were envious of us. People, I'd come back from trips and people always wanted, you know, what did he do now? What did, you know, because he was always doing these grand, elaborate surprises. And this went on throughout our entire, you know, almost two year relationship. I think, though, at the end, in the last six months or so, there were things that were nagging at my gut. They weren't huge. You know, it's not like somebody was standing on a football field with a big flag that said,

warning, warning, con man alert. They were small, you know. And so there was nothing overt that indicated to me that he was a con man. But there were little things that were really starting to nag at me. Unfortunately, I think, I mean, there's a reason we have that saying that love is blind. You know, I was in love with him and I thought I was spending the rest of my life with him. I really did. And we were preparing to move to Barcelona, my daughter and I. And I don't think I wanted to believe these little things that were nagging at me. But also, which is very, very important, these type of people, these whatever he is, sociopath or whatever he is, I'm not an expert, I can't diagnose him, but they

are extraordinarily adept at dismissing your doubts. And this is how he pulled the wool over, not just my eyes, but many famous doctors, institutions, because they shoot down any doubt. Anytime you raise a doubt there, it's rapid fire. They come back at you so fast, you know, to squash your doubts and they make you think that you're crazy. Yes. Yeah. I'm sure there's lots of lighting. Absolutely.

And there's lots of people listening to this who have gone through that. I mean, I'm sorry to rush you along with the story, you know, but I just want to get as much in as I can. He said the Pope was going to marry you when a friend said, actually, on the date that you're due to get married, the Pope is going to be in South America. So the Pope isn't going to marry you. You then had a confrontation with him and he said something very chilling

because you realised, didn't you, you have conned me. The last couple of years has been a complete con. What did he say to you? Well, as soon as I, I hope it's a long story, but as soon as I heard that, you know, I just, everything, it's like a light bulb went off. You know, I sort of woke up out of my love haze and put my journalist hat back on and immediately went into hyper investigative mode. And I knew he was lying about everything. And I started investigating him without telling him I hired a private investigator. I was very adamant about getting all my ducks in a row and getting all the information I could before I confronted him because I knew he would try to do what he had always done, which was, you know, dismiss any questions I had. And we had a confrontation

where I wanted to look him in the eye. And I by then knew that the entire wedding was completely fabricated. He had claimed to be the private personal doctor to not only the Pope, but many other celebrities, which was all a bunch of nonsense. He didn't even know any of these people. Everything was a lie, just everything. He had told me he got divorced. He wasn't even divorced. And so I asked him to fly to New York to look me in the eye because I kept saying, you're lying to me. You're lying to me. I'm not lying to you. I'm not lying. I would never lie to you, my love. And during that conversation, he, at one point, you know, I was firing questions at him and he was just, he was

so calm. That's the thing that was so eerie. He was so unflappable. And then I looked at him at one point and I said, why did you pick me? You know, I'm a journalist. Why, why me? At some point I was going to start asking you questions. It's, it's inevitable. And he just cocked his head and got this little sly smile on his face. And he said, I know that's why I love you so much and it was so creepy a chill a chill literally ran down my entire body because I thought this is a sick thrill for him this is some kind of game he's enjoying this you know it's it just felt like yeah it was a game it was some twisted sick game like he doesn't care who he hurts and and people lost their lives and if you watch this Netflix documentary which I would urge you to do, you will see that the tragedy played out.

Earlier this year, he was found guilty of gross assault against three of his patients, sentenced to two years and six months in prison by an appeals court in Stockholm. And I know you've actually been there and physically been there when, I don't know whether it was at the appeal stage or the original case, but both. Okay. What did that feel like to be there in his presence? It was really interesting because I first saw him last year when he was on trial and I hadn't seen him in person since that day that I confronted him in my apartment back in 2015. And then again, I saw him very briefly from above a hill when I discovered that he was hiding a hole. In addition to not divorcing his wife, I discovered that in Barcelona, the house that we were supposed to be moving after we got married, I went there to find out what was going

on there. And he was hiding a whole other family, third family there, another woman and two young children. But I hadn't seen him. And so I was very nervous about seeing him in court. And I always thought I would want to scream at him or punch him or something, you know. But then when I saw him, I felt very indifferent and just kind of blank and disgust. I mean, I just find him reprehensible. And I'm so appalled by what he's done. And I just thought I have nothing to say to him. You know, there's nothing he could say to me now that will make anything any better. There's nothing he could say to me that I will believe. If he apologizes, he's not going to mean it. He's incapable of not lying. And so I just never said anything to him. And the second

time when I saw him earlier this year, we came within very close proximity of one another. I mean, inches. We passed each other in the hall of the courtroom many times. And this time he tried to look at me. He had not done it the first time. And every time I looked away and that was my way of saying to him. You mean nothing to me and you have not taken me down. You know, you I'm fine. You know, I'm here working as a journalist again and I'm I'm fine. And you you don't get to destroy me and you haven't. But Lisa, I know you've become a figurehead for women who've been scammed or deceived by their partners, maybe not in this way, but in other ways.

What advice would you give to someone who suspects they may be going through this or has gone through it and come out the other side because I suppose it's quite easy in that situation to be quite hard on yourself to think well why why didn't I spot this why didn't I spot that but you're in that world at the time aren't you it's quite hard to be a neutral observer of yourself. I think the most important thing is just that I mean there is an incredible amount of embarrassment and guilt and humiliation that goes along with this. I mean, I felt that it was almost paralyzing. I mean, how did this happen to me? How did I fall for this? You know, I'm a smart journalist and this should not have happened to me. And so it's devastating. And it is the reason that a lot of women don't speak up. We stay silent because it is so embarrassing. And this is one of the reasons I'm so passionate about talking about this now, because these con artists count on that. If we stay quiet, then this perpetuates, this continues.

And there's so much victim shaming that goes on. It's just, it's so unfortunate. You know, the finger gets pointed at the woman. How could you be so stupid? How could you fall for this? And what people don't realize is how skilled these con artists are. They are criminals, you know, and it's not something that happens overnight. They draw you into this web of lies very carefully and slowly and meticulously.

It's calculated. And so my and you don't really realize as it's happening because it's happening so slowly. It's like a form of brainwashing. You know, it's gaslighting. And so my biggest advice to women, first of all, is do not blame yourself. This is not your fault. What was your crime? You know, you wanted to be loved.

You fell in love. That is not a crime. You wanted to trust the person that you fell in love with. That is not a crime either. You are human. It is not your fault. And the second thing is don't spend any energy whatsoever on the person that conned you and trying to figure out why. I always say that trying to figure out a crazy, nothing will drive you crazier than trying to figure out a crazy person. And, you know, focus on yourself and

healing and don't put any effort into figuring out why, because you won't figure out why, because it's not, it's confounding. It doesn't make sense because they are not, they don't think like us. They don't have empathy. They don't have remorse. And so just, you have to focus on yourself and know that you didn't do anything wrong. You fell in love. That's not a crime. Benita, thank you so much for joining us.

Benita Alexander. And you can watch Bad Surgeon as of tomorrow on Netflix. thank you so much for all of your texts on stammering just read a couple out now wonderful to hear your piece on stammering I'm 86 and a lifelong stammerer in my 20s and 30s I would walk all over London although I could afford a taxi because I couldn't say the name of my destination over the, I've learned how to be fluent. I talk a lot and have in the past loved amateur acting because I can be some other person who didn't stammer. Thank you for bringing stammering to a wider audience. And this one, I have a speech impediment, not a stammer,

but I really resonate with Jessie's story. I used to carry a thesaurus with me in my school bag so I could avoid the letter sounds I can't pronounce. Even though at 28, I'm still very fearful of people not understanding me and I could avoid the letter sounds I can't pronounce. Even though at 28 I'm still very fearful of people not understanding me and I'm conscious of what words I use. I'm just really happy that speech impediments in general are being spoken about to a wider audience. Listen, join in that conversation. You can text Women's Hour on 84844. Now, let's talk about an issue that's made the papers today um and it's this um it's on the front page of the telegraph the uk inequalities and human rights commission

ehrc is facing a special review of its international accreditation after lobbying by trans rights groups led by stonewall that is the the LGBT plus charity. The review by the Global Alliance of National Human Rights Institutions, the GANRI for short, could threaten the ability of the UK to take part in UN discussions on human rights. Reaccreditation to continue to be a part of these discussions takes place regularly and the EHRC went through this process successfully only last year. Well to unpick why this review is happening and the potential consequences for the organisation and the UK standing in global human rights, I'm joined by the Chair of the EHRC, Baroness Kishwa Faulkner. Welcome to Womans Hour. Great to be here, thank you for giving me this opportunity. Well talk us

through it, talk us and the listeners through it. Your initial response to the EHRC facing a special review. So why was this special review called? So before I answer that question, the first thing I want to do is to assure all your listeners that we are here to protect and promote their human rights, to defend their human rights day in and day out, and we will continue to do that irrespective of what happens here. But you raise an interesting question about why we think this has happened. We went through a very successful reaccreditation process that takes place every five years. It was the third time we were re-accredited and we were re-accredited for five years

and that was only decided last October. So we had to ask ourselves, what has led to this request back in April, which is when I think it was when they requested us just a few months after we'd been re-accredited as to why this was happening so soon and again and there was only one issue that I think was at all controversial in this intervening period and that was the advice we had given to the Minister for Women and Equalities inequalities, Kemi Badenoch, clarifying the definition of sex in the Equality Act.

So the Equality Act uses the words sex and gender interchangeably. But what your listeners might wish to understand is that sex means whether you're a man or a woman, whereas gender is a more fluid everyday definition, description actually. And by a piece of legislation not being clear in that regard, this leads to a lot of confusion for service providers, for public sector organisations, private sector organisations, as to when they need to uphold, shall we say, the rights particularly of women as a protected characteristic versus the rights of trans people who may be legal women or legal men through a different process and category. And we were very aware of this continuing confusion. There was a lot of litigation continuing to take place,

and you will have seen a lot of media interest in this area as well, starting from schools going right into the delivery of public services, NHS and so on. We were asked by the minister to advise her on whether there needed to be clarification in the Act, and we did so. That's how we got here. Your clarification, so that everybody listening knows, was to lean towards a biological definition of sex as the fairest way of protecting everybody's rights. Yes. So we reviewed this over six months

because we had started the review even before she formally advised us because we were aware of how much money we were spending, public money, in litigation advising other organisations. Last year, we had produced single sex spaces guidance exception, single sex spaces exceptions, which was guidance to help. We thought that would resolve the matter.

But it became evident to us over the preceding months that it didn't really provide the clarification that we hoped it would. And therefore, we came out on the wrong side of Stonewall be biological sex, that takes protections and rights away from trans people in the eyes of the law. They have a point, don't they? No, they don't have a point because they're misinterpreting what we've said. And I suggest that people look up the letter. It is up on our website, the advice we've given to government. It is up on the EHRC website. All we did was that we advised the government to review whether, because we don't have the resources to do that, and frankly consultations are a matter for government, they're not a matter for a regulator like us. All we did was advise the government that it may find that there is greater

clarity in defining in some narrow areas that biological sex strikes the right balance. And what are those areas you have in mind? And by the way, could I just pick up the point about Stonewall defining us in the antagonistic way that they do. This was their third attempt at the UN. And the question I think we have to ask of Stonewall is, what is it about their national rights institution, whereby they think they can't engage with us here in the UK on the ground, but go externally to the UN to complain about us? Why do they feel that they need to escalate matters when we have been cooperating with them, consulting them and working with them over all these years? Okay, well, I can't speak for Stonewall. We haven't had an answer from them on that one. But

I wouldn't just just redirect you to my question. When you said to the government, this is our advice in narrow areas that, you know, sex should be defined as biological. That'll clear things up. What are the areas you're talking about? The areas we're talking about are freedom of association for lesbians and gay men, whereby they have the right to form an association. It's about pregnancy and maternity, where trans men have fewer rights at the moment, actually. This definition would improve the rights of trans men. Positive action. Currently, trans women with a GRC could benefit from women-only shortlists. Trans men with a GRC could benefit from women only shortlists, trans men with a GRC could not. So actually, there are areas where even trans people, depending on which category, whether you're a trans woman or a trans man, would have enhanced protection.

And what about single sex spaces that would leave trans people out of those areas? No, no, because trans people, if they have the protections under the Gender Recognition Act, which is what all trans people do, they would still continue to have their protections under that act. It is, I'm afraid, a complex area. And that is why I advocate that people read our letter very carefully, because it was a long letter written after deep thought and consultation. Your listeners might like to know we considered this matter over six months, over 11 hours of deliberation and 150 pages of legal and policy and other advice. It was not something we came to lightly, but we're required by law, section 11 of the Equality Act, to advise government on the areas where we're the regulator. So just in synopsis, you would say that what you're suggesting enhances the rights of trans

people, doesn't diminish them, and Stonewall have got the wrong end of the stick? What we're saying is that it enhances trans people's rights in some areas. In some limited areas, it might impact them negatively. But we believe that those negative effects can be countered by the use of the gender recognition protections, which are a different protection. We were looking at sex in the Equality Act, which is in shorthand about women's rights. We were balancing the rights of women versus the rights of a very small number of trans people. And we think this very small number of trans people whose rights might be negatively impacted will be covered through a different category, which is gender reassignment. Thank you so much for joining us, Baroness Kishwa Faulkner. She is the chair of the EHRC. We have a statement from Stonewall,

and it's this. Robbie DeSantos, Director of External Affairs at Stonewall, says, all countries need effective, independent national human rights institutions to promote and protect human rights, with anti-trans hate crime and prejudice rising and Britain sliding down the international rankings on LGBTQ plus rights. LGBTQ plus people in Great Britain need a more robust and independent human rights watchdog. We hope that this special review will give the EHRC the scrutiny and recommendations it needs to play the part our communities deserve. You are listening to Woman's Hour. Now, let's tell you about a quite incredible young woman. I'm delighted to say we can talk to one of the highest ranked chess players in England.

However, until recently, it was a very different country that Kamila Heryshenko represented, and that was her home nation of Ukraine. Following the start of Russia's full-scale invasion of Ukraine in 2022, Camilla was forced, along with her mother, Ina, to flee the country. A month later, they arrived here in the UK. In a time of huge uncertainty and danger, it was chess that proved instrumental to securing Camilla and her mother's safety. As friends from the chess world paid for their hotels,

arranged their visas and helped every step along the way. And now as a mark of how appreciative she is of all those efforts, Camilla has chosen to switch to play for England and she joins me now. Camilla, welcome to the programme. Good morning. It's wonderful to have you here and to tell us your story. I mean, you fell in love with chess at the age of five. What got you interested?

Yeah, that's right. I mean, it's just an awkward story, to be honest. We just passed by some building and I saw in the window some man who was teaching kids to play some game. And, I mean, that was quite accidentally I started to play chess. And when did you realise, I'm quite good at this? Oh well, I think when I won my first national championship it was like qualifying tournament in Donetsk actually

which is occupied now. So yeah and I was age like eight. Yeah, and then I think I started to play professionally. That's incredible. You won a national championship at eight. What a talent. Well, we have to sort of put your story in the context of the war because that's why we're talking to you here in the UK

and that's why inadvertently now you are playing under the English flag. But your hometown, Kramatorsk, you know, back when the war started, talk us through that. When did you realise that you probably would at some point have to leave? Yeah, I mean, I think I started to think about the war starting like in January 2022, because we had signs from Russian sides, Russian government that it's probably gonna start. And when it started on 24th of February, I mean, I was shocked.

No one knows when it's gonna actually start. And I mean, I think from that day, from the first day of invasion, I started to think when we're going to evacuate because it was quite scary and dangerous to stay there. And could you hear the missiles coming in? Was that something that you experienced firsthand? Yeah, so from the first minute, I woke up at four in the morning and heard kind of bomb sound missiles.

And then it continued and continued for days, weeks. And yeah, that's why, I mean, it was dangerous. Some of the missiles went to the centre of my town. And, I mean, no one could know when, what the next building going to be bombed, you know. So that's why it was quite dangerous to stay there. Yeah, so you had to leave and people may remember that awful, awful missile attack on the station that you left through just a few weeks earlier, Kramatorsk station, where scores of people died just waiting to get on a train. The international chess community stepped in though, which is why you're now talking to us from Hull. Tell us what they did. Tell us how they got you to where you are now. Yeah, so I'm in Hull now. First of all, I've been to Chichester.

We were living there for six months with my mom. And one of the, like, English family, Ashworth, John and Thompson, they hosted us for six months. And, I mean, I'm very grateful to this family and first of all my mom contacted Andrei Chiravin he's a coach now he actually living in Hull as well so he helped us to go out you know from some psychology side he helped us just you know to get up to advocate because we didn't know actually how to locate because it was very hard to leave the hometown the country and you know and um and richie ravin contacted malcolm pain he's like a director of english chess federation actually so he helped

us to find the family who could host us in England and before that we needed to get a visa to England and we went to Romania and Michael Marin and his wife they helped us to be in there for a month they actually paid for the, for food for the whole month. Well, you've had some incredible support network then. Just briefly, if you can, in around 30 seconds, tell us what does it feel like now to switch allegiances and play for England in a sign of gratitude

for everything, all the good deeds people have done for you. Yeah, so I'm just very grateful to English Federation. They're helping us, hosting us, and I mean just very grateful to English Federation. They help us, hosting us. And I mean, the only thing I could with a flag on the side of my name. I can help physically. We've got a Help for Ukraine page on Facebook.

We've got a hub that helps Ukrainians. All the donations, I mean, everyone's welcome to have a look at our page and help Ukraine because we have to remember that the war is not over and continues. Camilla, thank you so much for joining us on Woman's Hour. That is Camilla Horoshenko. Thank you for joining us. Woman's Hour back tomorrow at 10. That's all from today's Woman's Hour.

Join us again next time. I love you. I know that. Carolyn is 80, a wealthy widow. Dave is in his 50s, homeless, a former drug addict with a long criminal record. Their love affair causes a huge rift in Carolyn's family. That's our mom. We're not going to let you just do that. I'm Sue Mitchell and this story unfolded in California on the street where I live. Look what you brought into your house. He's a con artist, mother.

Is Dave a dangerous interloper or the tender carer he claims to be? That's why I'm here. Thank God. Find out in Intrigue, Million Dollar Lover from BBC Radio 4. Listen on BBC Sounds. If anything happens to him, I will just die. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC

and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.