Woman's Hour - Parenting: Alcohol

Episode Date: February 27, 2019

What do you do if you suspect your child is drinking alcohol and everything seems to be getting out of control? And what’s the best way to introduce alcohol to your child – if at all? Jane Garvey speaks to Mandy Saligari, author of ‘Proactive Parenting’ and Dorothy Newbury-Birch, Professor of Alcohol and Public Health Research, at the School for Social Sciences, Humanities and Law at Teeside University.

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey and this is the Woman's Hour Parenting Podcast. It's this week about drinking alcohol, alcohol consumption and teenagers. What is the best message to give? How do you give it? Would you actually tell them? And perhaps more importantly, will they listen to a word you say? I talked to Mandy Saligari, author of a book called Proactive Parenting, and Dorothy Newbury-Birch, professor of alcohol and public health research

at the School of Social Sciences, Humanities and Law at Teesside University. I started by asking Dorothy whether my own approach, which was basically to drink a moderate amount in a responsible way in front of my children, was the right thing to do? Well, I think as parents, we're all just trying to do the best we can. And I have to say that was the stance I had when my kids were younger. I think the reality, and now that I know the evidence much more, is that this isn't a good idea.

And really, when you think about it, why are we teaching our children how to use a drug? We wouldn't give them a cigarette after dinner at the dinner table. And I think the problem with this and the reason it happens is because we're all just trying to do the best we can and there's mixed messages out there and not very clear messages about what we should be doing. Well, give us a clear message. Well, the clear message is the guidelines that were published in 2009 says, you know, alcohol free childhood is the best thing that you can give your children.

But the reality is that we know some children are drinking. And in fact, the majority of children have had a drink by the age of 15 so the guidelines say under 15 we should not be drinking at all um and then from 15 to 17 if they are going to drink then they shouldn't drink more than two to three units once a week in um you know in in in a way is safe for them. The problem with young people is, the problem with young people's drinking, I should say, as opposed to young people, is that they're not interested in the long-term effects. They're not interested in all of the stuff we know, that it's related to all sorts of diseases, it's related to cancers.

But we need to get the message across that they, you know, they can get into fights, they can be arrested for getting into fights. I've seen young people who've drank too much in A&E where the doctors and the parents haven't known if that young girl has been raped or not because she's been so drunk. Now, these are not young people who we would class as being dependent on alcohol. They may only drink very irregularly. But when they do drink, they drink a lot and their bodies aren't able to deal with that amount of alcohol. All right. I appreciate what you're saying, although there will be some listeners who say, we've got to deal not with the world as it should be or could be, but with the world as it is.

So, Mandy, we know alcohol is a legal drug enjoyed responsibly by millions of people in this country. How do you teach your teenagers to be a responsible drinker? OK, so I think that what we're trying to do is first, as parents, be able to be heard by our children so that whatever we do tell them sinks in. And the way to do that is to act with self-respect and model appropriate behaviour to our children. So I think the first place that our children learn about alcohol

is by seeing us drink. So if you're the person who comes in after a stressful day and goes into the kitchen, kicks off your shoes, pops open a bottle of wine, swigs it back and says, oh, that's better. There's a message that's gone out there to your children, however old they are. And I think that that's a simple reality that we have to understand, that we don't just suddenly introduce our children to alcohol at whatever age you may decide to do that, that there are messages before that that have already laid an influence. But as a parent, do you not drink ever in front of your young children? You're asking someone who's in recovery from addiction, so I haven't drunk for decades. I think they've never seen me drinking ever having said that but but i mean to keep my children mildly out of it but my experience the real the reality i work in schools

i work with teenagers i work with loads and loads of kids that they drink and i think the most important thing for for a teenager to understand is that drink has an impact and for them to be able to clock that impact as it's happening which means that they can then become responsible for why they drink what purpose I mean they're trying to ease the sort of social wheels of course they are and lose inhibition and bond and belong and take risks and all those things but they must understand that there are consequences that there is subsequent behavior that happens as a direct result of the alcohol. And any teenager who says, I can drink and I don't get shattered and nothing terrible happens, is in denial and that needs challenging.

I don't suppose there's a word of that you disagree with, Dorothy? There isn't a word. I would say that there is some evidence to say that if we're totally lax about drinking with our children or really harsh about drinking then then it can have a negative effect and actually I totally agree that that actually modeling our behavior as as adults and and understanding what safe limits are 30 percent of us as adults drink too much. So, you know, it's about getting the message across what is the safe limits for adults as well as for young people. Mandy? I think also that parents will often pick up the pieces of a child who's drunk.

So they've gone out, they've got drunk, they're sick, they're staggering around. Personally, as parents, I would suggest you do not make it easy for your child if they are suffering after a massive hangover or a big drink up or something like that. Let the world also have a part in teaching your child the consequences of what they do. Right, well, let's talk practically then. What is a unit of alcohol? Is it worth actually lining up a load of, I mean, you can use water, obviously, put them in glasses and say, this is what a unit is. Don't drink more than this. I don't think they'll listen because once your children get to 13, 14 years old, the parental voice is often less influential than the Internet voice or the peer voice.

So what you want to do and some kids will be able to drink more than others and we can measure it by units because that's what we all have to do. But actually, as a parent, I want my child to know what their individual limit is. If you can't cope with what your best friend copes with, you need to know that. You also need to know, have you eaten before you go out and drink? Because that will also moderate the impact of alcohol. Are you able to drink one, stop drinking for a while, notice how you drink? It's getting people to be conscious and in their bodies when they are drinking so they log the effect as they go along instead of this dissociation

where someone just gets hammered and doesn't even feel themselves getting drunk. Dorothy, is it possible as a middle-aged parent, most parents when they've got teenagers probably are at middle age or near it, is it possible to find the time in the day to open up that conversation with your recalcitrant 15-year-old as they head off for the evening? Or is it just too late by then? Should you have laid the law down or put the messages out long before you get to that stage? I don't think it is about laying the laws down. I think it's about having honest conversations from an earlier age. How young do you start well I think you know we've all had those conversations with our young kids you know if we've had a if we've had a glass of

wine where they've said can I have a glass of wine can I have a drink of that or whatever so so just sort of bringing the subject up but I totally believe that, you know, by showing a good example, it's the best way to move forward. I really like the idea and agree with the idea of this harm minimisation approach. And, you know, I mean, my eldest daughter was brought home by the police at 15 after being very drunk. And she promised me she would never do it again, and of course she did. And so it's not as easy as me just sitting here as a professor and saying we should do this and we should do that. So you actually, Dorothy, as you illustrate there, had real-life experiences. I'm convinced, in fact, I'm only in this job now

because I drank too much once in my teens and missed a job interview that I think would have taken my life in a completely different direction. We've all got those stories of teenage, adolescent, idiotic alcohol episodes. And I know that Mandy, you are a therapist as well as an author. And I mean, what's the most common teenage alcohol experience that you encounter? Wow, multiple, I would say. I think early drinking, secret drinking, binge drinking. So I heard the professor comment earlier about that it doesn't represent dependence. But I think there is an emotional dependence on alcohol in order to release kind of tension, bond, become part of a tribe, get a sense of belonging, and, you know, swigging a bottle of spirits.

Nobody's drinking it glass by glass. You talked about units earlier. Nobody's going glass by glass or unit by unit. They are literally passing a bottle, a litre bottle of vodka or something. But Mandy, that's not new. No, it's not. But when you do that on, well, it's earlier access. I was unusual when I was younger and I started drinking quite young.

I was unusual. Nowadays, it's quite common for teenagers 13, 14 to be drinking, binge drinking and trying spirits at that age. And then we've got to remember they're coupling it with other substances. So we're ending up with sort of poly substance use. Dorothy. I totally agree. So we're ending up with sort of polysubstance use. Dorothy? I totally agree. I'm not sure it is a sort of addiction for a lot of these young people. I think it's about fitting in and I think it's about not knowing the consequences.

And for most of these young people, you know, nothing will happen and they'll grow up to drink sensibly. It's about educating how to deal with situations as they come about. So, you know, I used to teach medical students, my PhD was with medical students around drugs and alcohol. And, you know, when you told them that if they were arrested for getting into a fight and that could have an effect on their career for the rest of their lives, people aren't aware of that. Young people aren't aware of the social consequences that can have a long term effect. education in schools, you know, I've got a big thing that we, you know, we need to be teaching about harm minimisation and not just about dependence to alcohol and drugs. We need to be talking in real life for the majority of young people who are drinking. There is a link. I'm not just picking out Teesside particularly. I'm from Merseyside myself. But

there is a link in some parts of the country between heavy drinking and ability to drink heavily and masculinity, isn't there? Is it harder for young men or just different? I think it's different. And I think you're absolutely right, not just in Teesside, the northeast of England has been shown to have the highest levels. And we think this is to do with, you know, being... being highest levels of what of alcohol consumption amongst adults and young people alongside the northwest it has to be said um and and we think that's coming from a culture of you know sort of shipbuilding and men drinking a lot and and you know industry heavy industry but i think the biggest increase in alcohol consumption

has been with middle-aged women um over the last few years and it's all you know those of us that like a gin when we get in at night or we it's very easy to open a bottle of wine so we're seeing a huge increase amongst women's drinking in particular. And of course, those women, sweeping generalisation, are bringing up today's teenagers. Well, those women are us, the majority of us. I mean, my mantra is it's not those people that drink too much, it's us. You know, if you've got 60 or 70 percent of young people who are drinking, then it's young people are drinking, you know, and those people who are drinking too much are us. So we need to be very clear about that. Because I think when we're talking to our young people, often we're talking about those people that drink too

much. And we have to talk about our own, you know, our own groups, our own friends about our own groups, our own friends, our own family. There will be people who drink too much within that group. Mandy, you mentioned that you yourself had been an addict. Does that give any more power to your message, do you think? I mean, I'm not criticising you remotely. No, gosh, no. I'm just interested.

It is what it is. I think my greatest battle as a parent is not to overreact to normal teenage behaviour. And I work very hard at that. But I do think I have an insight as to why somebody might engage on a self-destructive behaviour. Why? Why might they? Unhappy, feeling insecure, trying to fix emotional problems and sense of belonging through using something potent like alcohol and how easy it is to fly under the radar and not present as a problem until society recognises it as a problem. Precisely because alcohol is legal and freely available.

And socially reinforced. And I think things like talking to your children, you know, talking about brain development, talking to your children around five, six, about brain development, talking to your children around five, six, seven, eight, how they cope with feelings, how they cope with being around other people, really trying to reinforce a sense of identity, recognising that there are things in the world that people can use that might aid how they feel in companies such as alcohol, modelling responsible behaviour around alcohol and around emotional management. And then maybe around 13, recognising that this is the age where they are going to strike out on their own. They are going to start taking independent decisions.

And for us to be able to comment and support as parents, so that our children learn how to navigate the waters of early teendom, where they are going to try all sorts of things, probably whether you like it or not, and come through the other side safely and with their heads screwed on. Which, of course, the overwhelming majority will. Yeah. Yeah. Just let me bring in a listener who's emailed to say, my teenage boys first got drunk at 14. Both had no idea that a pint of vodka was not the same

as a pint of beer. Their dad can drink three or four pints. They thought they could drink three or four pints of neat vodka with dire consequences. I do think it is incredibly important to explain to teenagers what a unit of alcohol looks like and what it can do to you. It sounds like Anna has had that sounds like an absolutely horrific experience. Again, Mandy, not uncommon. No, not uncommon. I also think that there are things like spirits we've got to mark for their potency, but also to recognise that if kids eat like the alcohol pop type of drink, they're so sugary and so sweet that that can make somebody think that they can handle their drink. There is definitely a badge of pride in this country about how much you can drink, how much

you can put away, whether as a girl you can drink as much as a guy and all those sorts of things and that bravado. And I think if somebody learns that they can knock off a few of these small drinks that are Alcopops, they might then equate to being able to drink, you know, vodka and tonic or vodka neat or whatever. It makes me think about there is a range, an increasing range of non-alcohol beers and spirits. I've tried almost all of them because I'm interested in the whole thing. Are they a good idea, Dorothy? What do you think? Well, anything that isn't alcohol really, that isn't actual alcohol would probably be a good thing. I drink non-alcoholic, you know, lagers. I quite like them, but I also... They've got better,

haven't they, to be fair well they have but everybody thinks because you're a professor of alcohol and public health research you don't have a drink I'm very clear about trying to keep to the debt the the um the limits that we should have can I just make one thing clear about about young people I've done a lot of um research with young people over the last few years and a lot of surveys and the reality is kids or young people aren't necessarily and very rarely drinking things like alka-pops they're drinking vodka they're drinking the stuff that's easy to get out of the house that's easy to share around and also is very cheap I think the biggest thing this country could do to stop this

is to have the minimum unit price, like Scotland's just brought in, to stop the really cheap, horrible alcohol that you can get, including things like that, you know, the huge bottles of cider that you can get. Do you know what, I suddenly mentioned that. I saw a can discarded in the street the other day, my street actually, 49p it had cost. I mean, somebody had drunk it.

It's just absolutely extraordinary. Okay, so Mandy, what about the whole idea of the, what is it called, minimal unit pricing? Minimum unit pricing. What about that? I just don't think there's one answer i think yes we need to look at the pricing of alcohol but i think that um i know lots of people who will um

bung all their money together and get themselves a big bottle of something or they'll pinch it out of their parents home so i think that we all need to pull together in all the different corners which includes parenting which is my particular interest because i don't want to wait for government or policy to catch up with whatever it is whatever whatever culture it is I want to teach my children. I would like to know that as a parent, I can be proactive in my approach and teach my children what I think they need to know in order to handle what's coming their way. And when you mention things like alcohol-free beers and so forth, I was at a gathering not so very long ago where the parents were serving alcohol and there was alcohol and then there was non-alcoholic beers

and we were serving it to teenagers in plastic glasses so they had no idea whether they were having alcohol or non-alcoholic. And guess what? And we didn't tell them. And I'm still not going to say exactly when or where this happened. And they still don't know. But the parents were absolutely in control of how much was being drunk at the gathering. Because people always ask me, you know, they're 15, they're 16.

How much alcohol can they have? How do we manage it? And things like that are, you know, search the bags at the door, take out alcohol. If somebody turns up already having so many pre's that they're already drunk, remember as a parent, you'll have liability if that person has alcohol poisoning on your property. So if you don't want to let them in because they're already too drunk, send them home. Send a good sharp message early on at all these gatherings and then everybody is more likely to behave. And if you want to filter in non-alcoholic drinks with the alcoholic drinks, you have to serve them in glasses and the parents have to be responsible for running the bar. Thank you. That's very clear. Thank you very much, Mandy. Thank you, Dorothy.

Appreciate you both coming on to the Parenting Podcast. I always get into trouble when I call things a party and I'm always, no, it's a gathering. No, it's a gathering. Shut up. Dorothy and Mandy, thank you very much. There'll be more in the next edition of the Woman's Hour Parenting Podcast. And of course, if you have a burning issue you'd like us to talk about on this podcast, let us know via the website bbc.co.uk slash Woman's Hour. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

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