Woman's Hour - Parenting: Philippa Perry

Episode Date: March 13, 2019

The author and psychotherapist Philippa Perry talks to Jane about her latest publication ‘The Book You Wish Your Parents Had Read’ and answers listeners' questions about how to parent well and give children a healthy start – while not being too hard on yourself.

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey and this is the Woman's Hour Parenting Podcast, this week featuring the psychotherapist and author, Philippa Perry, who's written a book called The Book You Wish Your Parents Had Read. We basically said to you, ask us anything or ask Philippa anything because you wouldn't want my parenting advice, trust me, and Philippa will tell us exactly what she thinks you ought to do

as a responsible, decent and loving parent. So here's our conversation, and then we'll catch up with some of your thoughts at the end of it, and there'll be more from Philippa too. Philippa has a daughter, and I asked her how old she was. 26. Right, OK. So you know everything. It's all fine. I don't know everything, as I found out when I was babysitting this Sunday. What happened then?

Well, we had to put an awful lot of energy into the soothing part because the little person we were babysitting really did want his mummy. Right, and she wasn't available, but you were. And she wasn't available. Is it possible actually at any time to judge another parent and their parenting? I don't think it's a great idea because we don't know what's gone beforehand and quite often when we judge a parent what we're doing is just trying to feel better about ourselves because parenting is so difficult it's so tricky it's so you just when you think you've got it you find you haven't got it so if you see someone else

failing you can think oh I'm not that bad and judge them and we don't know what their childhood was like compared to their childhood they might be doing brilliantly so we shouldn't judge I had exactly that experience last week in a shop when i looked at a woman who was frankly shouting at her primary school age child and i went home feeling rather smug and a lot happier that's appalling isn't it what i do in those situations is go to the mother and go are you having a bad day and then i interrupt the the shouting and maybe I can soothe the mother who can then soothe the child rather than judge the mother. It's going to make everything worse, isn't it? Let me go through some of the questions that have come in for you. Here's one. I don't

need to mention any names this morning. I won't mention any names, by the way. So if you want to get involved, rest assured you'll be anonymous. What to do with a testosterone-fuelled 13-year-old boy who wavers between delightful and funny, still wants to be kissed and tucked in at night, but then there are awful moments of aggression when he towers above me and uses his size to intimidate and snaps at reasonable requests? Help. Well, just because you think he's using his size to intimidate

doesn't mean he is. We often slip up by thinking we know other people's motivations. And what we can do in a situation like that is not when the flash is happening, but at another time say, I have this problem, because when you put down boundaries for children, define yourself and not the child. I have this problem. When you tower over me like that, when you put down boundaries for children define yourself and not the child i have this problem when you tower over me like that when you're angry i feel this and what i would like instead is if um we could thrash out any problems face to face rather than you being taller than me because i get scared define yourselfine yourself, not the child. Define yourself, okay. Define yourself, not the child.

Right, so tell me a bit more about that. Okay. When we're putting down boundaries with children, because we all have our limits and we need to put a boundary down before we get to our limit, it's a really good idea to not define the child like, say, you are doing this to me, because nobody likes to be defined. And perhaps he's not trying to intimidate. Perhaps he has no

idea that he's intimidating. But if we define ourself and say, I prefer it when we're talking, we're face to face. So can we sit down because you're so much taller than me and I'm getting a crick in my neck or I feel intimidated or whatever it is. It's much easier to hear when someone's defining themselves rather than if they're defining you. Okay, question from Jessica. Do you have any thoughts or advice on sleep issues? There's so much stigma attached to controlled crying,

especially in regards to attachment. What would you say about that? I think there's no getting away from the time we have to spend with our children. So we can put it in positively at first, rather than trying to repair things we've got wrong later on. And a child who associates bed with cosy comfort, being snuggled, is more likely to want to go to bed or want to go to sleep than one who is associ you actually manipulate the child into not crying, and you want a relationship with your child. You don't want a relationship based on manipulation.

Well, no, but on the other hand, you do want to kip. Okay, I'm coming to that. So what you can do is rather than encourage the child to sleep outside of their comfort zone, so when they get really, really stressed, is to nudge them towards sleeping within their comfort zone. So that means if the only way at the moment is your base comfort zone for the child is to say you're nursing them, they're at your breast, just do one step at a time and take the child off the breast and stroke the head instead. And then you do the next, when they're comfortable with that,

then you do the next step. So it's steps to separate within their comfort zone, not beyond it. It takes a bit longer, but that way the child keeps associating night time with nice things rather than horrible things. We learn by what we associate experiences with. So if we want a child to do something, it's best if they associate lovely, warm, loving feelings with it rather than being scared or being alone or being lonely. And that applies at any age and every age, presumably. Well, it applies to me.

Laura says, how do you raise a kind child? or being alone or being lonely. And that applies at any age and every age, presumably. Well, it applies to me. It certainly applies to me. Laura says, how do you raise a kind child? I think that's a really good question. Well, if I was just to say to you, Jane, be kind. Yeah, probably wouldn't work. You'd, and I said that to you all the time, you'd probably learn be aggressive because children do as they are done to.

And it takes a long time for them to pick it up. And sometimes you think they're never going to. But if we demonstrate kindness, if we demonstrate thinking about other people's feelings, especially our child's feelings, then they will eventually pick it up. Children do ape those around them. And you have, you know, the early couple of years or three years, they're only around people that you can, you know, control who they're around. And so you can make sure that they are surrounded by kindness, and they will pick it up, it will take long and we need optimism that they will pick it up, but they do. Sometimes we really do need optimism. Another question here. What about introducing independence into a child's life

and how can you nurture whilst also creating that environment of independence or the possibility of independence? We needn't be in a rush to be independent, for our children to be independent, because they want to be independent. And the best way we can nurture independence is by not pushing our children away. The more we push them away, whether it's at night, whether it's to go to a party independently or whatever it is, the more they cling to us. If we are always there to go back to, they feel more confident to take little forays out into the world. So if you're at the playground and there's a nice little safe fence all the way around it, just sit on the bench, let them go away from you and then come back to you. And they will naturally want to explore. And if they feel sure that you're always going to be there

when they come back, then they get a lot more independent. Can I talk about screens? Because I know there's been a burning desire for people to just learn how they approach the child who cries when their iPad is taken away from them. Well, what children need and what we all need is a sense of connection, a sense of being involved. And before the advent of screens, we got this sense of connection by being with each other or playing games with each other. And parents too love their screens because it can be lonely looking after a little baby or a toddler

so you do get a sense of you know you can chat with your friends on Facebook you get the sense of connection which is absolutely lovely and we all love it but I think what is good is we set the example as early as we can of connecting with the child rather than getting our sense of connection via a screen. We're the grown-up. We can show self-discipline when it comes to our screens. OK, I suppose I want to really put myself inside the household where we have developed, for whatever reason, a lifestyle which does occasionally mean...

Too much screens. Too many screens. OK. And that the child, could be a boy, could be a girl, simply is desperate to be on their iPad. Well, you know because it's gone on now for, we're entering hour three. Yeah. And yes, it is raining outside.

What do you do? You define yourself. I'm not happy with you being on the screen so long, so I'm going to take it away. I'll let you finish this game and then I'm going to take it away because I don't like you being on the screen so long so I'm going to take it away, I'll let you finish this game and then I'm going to take it away because I don't like you being on the screen that long. Do you want to help me make lunch or do you want to play a board game? Well, they'll say no.

They won't want to play it. Nobody wants to play it. No one wants to play a board game. If you don't want to play, you don't know, I'm sure you're very resourceful and you'll find something to do that isn't a screen, but I'm not happy with you being on a screen. You don't have to be entertainment's officer.

And if you are not happy with a child on a screen, you can say so and take the screen away. And if they're unhappy, you can soothe them. I can see you're furious that I've taken your screen away. I'm sorry about that. It's no getting away people having feelings. And we have to be alongside our children when they're having feelings, even if we're finding those feelings inconvenient. And we have to help

them articulate them. Just one very quick one. If your child has a fear you believe is irrational, or frankly, it is irrational, what do you do about that? Well, the fear, what they're saying, that, you know, perhaps it's monsters under the bed. Yeah, something like that. And we know there's no monsters under the bed. However, their fear is real, even if the reason they're giving to it is the best narrative they can come up with at the time for that fear. So we should hear the fear and take that fear seriously. Take the feeling seriously, even if the content doesn't make any sense.

Here's another email for you, Philippa, from Joanna. How can we get our nine-year-old and youngest of four to listen to advice or want to learn or have help if she can't do something? She seems to want to live without being taught. She won't learn her tables, loves dancing, but got really upset when her older sister suggested she might like dancing lessons and she gets furious if anyone tries her to tell tries to tell her something what i think could be going on here is that she's fed up especially as the youngest of four of being done to we can get into roles of doer and done to, and it can just get too much. And if people are always telling us what to do, we then become allergic to any instruction. So rather than doer

and done to, the dynamics around her need to shift into being more collaborative, more about her brainstorming, her problem solving. So if she's got a problem, don't tell her what to do. Ask her what she thinks she ought to do. Or if a friend of hers had that problem, what do you think that friend should do? Let her solve her own problems. If we are talked to rather than talked with, we can become what I call diaphobic, which means that we don't want to allow the influence of anyone else. And this is a tragic way of being because it makes relationships difficult. And so to repair this, what she needs to do is be listened to. Her advice needs to be taken. And when she's practiced having her advice taken, she'll have that modelled and so she'll be more open to influence herself. How important is birth order in how you are and how you're treated?

Well, as in that former example, you can get very bossed about if you're the youngest of four. But I'm very reluctant to say if you're first, you're this, if you're second, you're that. Okay, well, you tell me why you're wary of it all. I'm wary of it all because everybody is different and we can get really stuck with these labels of the old responsible one, the laid back younger one. And when we get stuck into these labels, they can become a box that rather restricts us when we're growing up.

And, you you know a child changes every day so to give them a label can empower their development sometimes to don't do it however tempting it might be yeah don't put a kid in a box um this is interesting from jane i would like to say that your interview with philippa resonates with me we are currently undergoing a therapeutic parenting programme to help us with our adopted daughter who has attachment difficulties. Now, we're practising everything that Philippa's talking about

and it is helping enormously. It's about validating my child's feelings and emotions, not condoning the behaviour. It does take time and it takes practice, but you have to keep going. So that's interesting. It does take a long time. And just because I'm giving parenting advice,

I don't think that parenting is easy. I think it's really difficult. And if you're finding it difficult, hello, welcome to the club. It is difficult. And one of the things that's difficult about it is that whatever age your child is, they can bring up in you emotions and feelings and trauma that you may have experienced when they're the same age. I get that. And how on earth do you stop your own insecurities being passed on to your children? Well, you won't. But what you can do to minimise that is just be aware of how you're talking to yourself. So if you're in the habit of being really self-critical, don't take that inner critic as the truth, because it's not. Just observe it rather than be it. Children pick up on things

like that and develop their own too harsh inner critics. It's not what we want. The classic would be a woman of my age in her 50s looking at herself in the mirror in front of her teenage daughter and saying, oh. Exactly. In fact, I've done that very thing with my daughter and she told me to stop it because she didn't like it. And then I remembered that my mother did it and I hadn't liked, I've done that very thing with my daughter and she told me to stop it because she didn't like it. And then I remembered that my mother did it and I hadn't liked it either. So, yeah, don't do that. We look like what we look like and that's just good enough. Yes. OK. And exam season, which is fast approaching and the idea that people want to help their children. Some, who knows, might be in some ways living through their children.

If you hated exams, maybe you didn't do as well as you want. You want Tallulah or Tom to be the person you were not able to be for whatever reason. How in God's name do you deal with this, Philippa? Well, we mustn't live through our children. But people do. Yeah, well, it's best if we don't because then we get a bit merged with them and they have difficulty in finding out where their

edges are and self-defining and exams are so frightening because it's like if I get this wrong if the next half hour goes wrong the rest of my life is ruined. What we can do is challenge that all or nothing thinking. By doing? There are retakes or, you know, nobody's ever asked me for my qualifications. Well, haven't they? I'm just about to ask you. No, they haven't. Nobody's ever. Well, actually.

Has anyone asked you for yours, Jane? No, nobody's ever asked me for anyone asked you for yours jane no nobody's ever asked me for proof of this alleged degree in english that i've got but um uh yeah i i want to go with that thought but i happen to have a child is taking her gcses yeah this summer and i i want to help her but i don't think she wants to do retakes and i don't particularly do you know what i mean you want to help her okay I think the best way we can help our children is by asking them how they want us to help us. Do they want us to test them or do they want us to sit in the other room? I was talking to a teenager and her dad the other summer. And up until six months previously, she'd welcomed her dad's help.

She loved doing maths with him. And as children do, they develop and they change. And suddenly, will you stop interfering with my homework? It just got to the point, no, I don't want your help. So just because they wanted our help last week doesn't mean to say they want it this week. So we can check in. Right. Be present. Be present.

How do you want me to help you? Because they are the best people to tell you how best to support them. And for single parents or parents who are separated or separating, the advice in your book is it couldn't be more clear. Basically, if you treat the other parent decently, then guess what? Your kids are going to be happier. Yes. If we are in conflict with our ex-partner, the child can feel their loyalty split. They can feel torn apart. They don't know who to trust. And so when speaking of your co-parent, always speak kindly and respectfully and find ways to cooperate for the sake of your child. Now, I know if you've been betrayed by your partner, it hurts a lot and it's really difficult and it takes all your strength to remember that they've got good points, too. But we must do this for the sake of our child. We must not diss our ex-partner in front of our child or even our current partner.

It doesn't really help a child if we tell them that mummy is or that dad is being a bit of a nasty person because a child feels sometimes that they are half one parent and half the other. And if you say, you know, for example, mum is bad or dad is evil, they internalise that half of them must be bad or evil. So it's not a great thing to do. You love your kid, so love the part of your kid that is your co-parent, which means being respectful about your ex. Do it. OK, because it does make sense. It really does. It's really difficult. I know I'm asking for the moon, but please reach for it. Thank you, Philippa.

Philippa Perry, who is the author of the book you wish your parents had read. And there'll be another parenting podcast next week. Anything you'd like us to cover on this particular Woman's Hour podcast, let us know via the website bbc.co.uk slash Woman's Hour. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like like warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

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