Woman's Hour - Parenting Podcast: Feeding your baby

Episode Date: January 31, 2019

Woman’s Hour has joined forces with BBC Radio Sheffield for a special series of programmes looking at how women are feeding their babies and how it makes them feel. Today Jane talks to their Weekend Breakfast presenter Kat Cowan who’s recently returned to work after maternity leave, following the birth of her son Cooper. Plus hearing from other mums around the country about what they went through whether they breast, bottle or mixed fed their babies.

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, Jenny Murray welcoming you to the Woman's Hour podcast for parents. This week we joined forces with BBC Radio Sheffield for a series of programmes on how women are feeding their babies and how it makes them feel. There's a video of six of the mothers we spoke to on the Woman's Hour website, Feeding Your Baby, Six New Mothers on the Plan vs. the Reality. And BBC Radio Sheffield weekend breakfast presenter Kat Cowan gave birth to her son Cooper in March 2018.

She told Jane why her experience had made her want to find out more. I was very, very lucky with the birth. I had him at home, which I'd planned to do very quickly. It was glorious. It's all you could hope for from the birth. And he was put on my chest and he immediately latched on. And that is what I've been planning to do. I've been planning to breastfeed.

I'd gone to the antenatal classes with the specific breastfeeding session. I'd bought nursing bras and nipple cream and that kind of thing. And so they put him on to me and it's this magical moment where he goes straight to the nipple and latched on and all the midwives said, hurrah, you've done a beautiful thing. Happy days. Happy days. But I know this is where I must interject, just to say that everybody speaking on this subject, and you're about to hear a whole range of voices, everyone is speaking from the heart. It's their personal experience.

If you've been through this, I've got my personal story. You'll have yours. These are very real but very personal stories you're going to hear over the next 20 minutes or so. And we've already had a load of stuff from you on Instagram, particularly at BBC Women's Hour. If you don't follow us there, make sure you start doing it now. Here's one experience. It's so weird to be hearing that you're doing this as I'm breastfeeding my one-year-old to sleep. What an emotional journey. We really struggled at first.

And I found it maddening how dogmatic the breastfeeding experts in hospital were, even though they were all saying slightly different things. In the end, my local breastfeeding experts in hospital were even though they were all saying slightly different things in the end my local breastfeeding clinic did sort us right out after what she describes here as a fairly emotional 90 minute wait with my mum sat in a room full of terrified looking women with their boobs out thanks to that because that that listener thank you but honestly there will be so many people with very similar stories. It's so, so difficult to get this right, but don't be hard on yourself. That's my overriding sentiment.

Whatever you're doing, I'm sure you're doing the very best you can. So, Kat, back to you. Things were going initially really well. It seemed beautiful. Every time a midwife came round to my house, she would look at what I was doing and tell me that it looked fantastic. And obviously you can't, your breasts aren't see-through. You can't tell what's going in your baby.

And it all seemed fine. And then about five days after the birth, so I'd had a bit of a sticky night on night three, because that's often when your milk hasn't quite come in and your baby's fat reserves have started to dwindle and he was crying and had this squirming baby um obviously in hindsight very hungry and not happy about that but i was told by the midwives that was totally normal um and still to just continue the breastfeeding and then we got to uh day five.

And at this stage, he'd developed an infection around his belly button. And his weight now had dropped two levels that they were not comfortable with. So we went from home to hospital. And we were in hospital for three days. And it was one of the most, the toughest experiences of my life. I went in feeling relatively confident. It was one of the most, the toughest experiences of my life. I went in feeling relatively confident. And over the course of my time in hospital, I just felt my confidence was completely shattered. What was so difficult about it is, you mentioned the lady who contacted on Instagram talking about getting slightly different advice.

I would feel during the day I'd have breastfeeding support workers and midwives coming in saying you're doing a beautiful job, everything's fantastic and then at night I would have I remember a nurse coming in saying this baby's starving and then I think it was on the second night I was there a midwife came in and said look we've got to get this baby on formula. We need to sort this out now. His weight is a problem

we need to act right now. was that the first time anybody mentioned bottle feeding to you yes i'd never it'd never been it never come up in my antenatal classes in trips to the the midwife when i was pregnant bottle feeding had not been all right i just need to mention i think that um the royal college of midwives people might remember a conversation that we had on women's eye with them last year. They did change their stance in the summer of June 2018. The decision of whether or not to breastfeed is a woman's choice and must be respected, the Royal College of Midwives has confirmed today as it publishes a new position statement on infant feeding.

This new statement recommends that balanced and relevant information be given to parents choosing to formula feed their babies, whether exclusively or partially, to allow them to do so safely and with support to encourage good bonding. The problem with that, I'm sure, well-intentioned message, is that it doesn't always spread out to people doing the job on the front line, the people you were meeting, Kat. No, and I suppose also the word choice, because I,

because formula was only mentioned when things were really going awry with me, it didn't really feel for me that this was an issue of choice. It felt that this was a serious situation that I was in and I had to follow this plan. At the same time, I would would I remember one of the the support workers looking a bit confused when she'd seen formula on my tray that the next morning like why why has this been brought into the mix and so I just sort of sat there thinking well I don't don't know who whose advice I should be following either way I felt like I was failing in some way

if I follow the advice of this midwife and introduce formula, then I'm failing that person. And if I follow her, then I'm failing in the eyes of that midwife. What happened? of trying to reduce the formula. It went on for several weeks and I was left at one point by the community midwife for a week. She said, you've been prodded and poked enough. I'm going to leave you for a week to reduce the formula to try and increase your breast milk supply. And I will never forget the moment she opened the door and she saw Cooper, she hadn't seen him for a week, and the look on her face was very apparent

that he'd lost a lot of weight it was obvious to her and she said to me you've tried everything uh you've done your best you've been pumping uh you've tried to reduce formula i think it's now clear you do not you do not produce enough breast milk for your baby at which point i i completely broke down and i said i'm a terrible mother and um she said to me she said you're not and i said well i failed a terrible mother. And she said to me, she said, you're not. And I said, well, I failed. I felt I'd failed on two levels. I had failed because I couldn't produce enough milk for my son.

But also because I had been hell-bent on making that work, I felt I'd let him starve for a week. And it was just, it was really, really tough. We should say that he's fine. He is fine. He's huge. He's all right. You're back at work. Your maternity leave is over. This is really, really very recent in your life experience.

And it's important to say we are having further discussions on this throughout the week. There's a phone-in with BBC Radio Sheffield. And Paulette Edwards, who's their brilliant mid-morning presenter, will be with me on Wednesday morning the week. There's a phone-in with BBC Radio Sheffield and Paulette Edwards, who's their brilliant mid-morning presenter, will be with me on Wednesday morning as well and we'll take calls from Sheffield

and from regular Woman's Hour listeners as well. So really looking forward to that. So we want your stories, your experiences and your questions actually on Wednesday. And tomorrow,

we'll reveal the results of a survey that we've commissioned alongside BBC Radio Sheffield about feeding babies, about why parents make the decisions they do in terms of feeding. So let's get you involved on Instagram and on Twitter, at BBC Women's Hour.

If you have anything you want to share, you can do exactly that now. But Kat, you have been talking to a range of women from the Sheffield area. And again, I just want to emphasise, you're going to hear a different sort of experience from the Sheffield area. And again, I just want to emphasise, you're going to hear a different sort of experience from each woman. They are talking about what they have done and why they've done it. This is all deeply personal to them. So we're going to start with Natalie, who's 34. She's from Healy in Sheffield, and she's got three children. She's breastfeeding two of them right now. Her youngest is 10's 10 months old, and her middle child, who is three.

Her first, Elias, is now five. He was born after an emergency C-section, which left Natalie in shock, and he lost quite a lot of weight, actually, in his first couple of days. Breastfeeding got off to a bit of a shaky start, but advice to use a breast pump, in Natalie's case, made all the difference. I started to alternate having him on me, having a breast pump, having him on me, having the breast pump, and then the milk came. And then from that point, it was totally fine. It has been a very easy journey. It was just a very wobbly couple of days at the beginning. I

fed him direct from the breast and always gave him a little top-up afterwards with a syringe just because they taught me how to do that in hospital. And for those first just few days, that reassured me because I could see a little bit going in, and I needed that, I think, at that time. I think, to be honest, if I hadn't been able to breastfeed him after the birth I'd had, I would have found it very difficult to find my identity as a mother,

and I think I could have really struggled mentally with that. So I feel that the breastfeeding kind of saved me because after the birth, I just looked at him and thought, my body didn't do that because I wasn't involved in that that was a surgical procedure and I felt very negative about it but then being able to breastfeed him I had all those lovely maternal feelings I could look at him and could see that he was mine and could see my body doing something positive for him whereas I'd felt it failed him at the very beginning with the birth so yeah I think it was fundamental to me actually really loving those early days of motherhood.

I really felt like I kind of found myself and it was a really positive experience. I just felt this amazing bond and this wave of love that I'd never known before. And I kind of found like, yeah, I'm a mum. I was meant to be a mum and this is amazing and he's amazing. And I think breastfeeding was a massive part of that. I'd say it's a massive part of my life at the moment and a massive part of how I identify myself, I think, as a mother. I can't quite imagine not doing it. I'm doing it right now. Sometimes it drives me crazy. It can be quite restrictive.

My social life has definitely taken a massive dip in the last few years. But I just feel it's so precious and magical. And I really feel like it's something that it's a brilliant gift I give my kids, that I'm prepared to make any sacrifices for it. And actually, in the grand scheme of things, it is fleeting. They will grow up and they'll grow out of it and then I'll be not breastfeeding anymore. It'll be very strange. Well, that's Natalie.

She sounds absolutely happy as Larry. And for her, it worked like a dream. It worked very, it was fairly straightforward. She had a few issues at the beginning and then from there on in, it was quite straightforward. And it was then for her subsequent children, it just clicked. And I found talking to her, it was so interesting how those thoughts of guilt and failure, which I heard time and time again when I talked to a lot of women,

she attributed them to her birth. And it was actually the fact that she had a C-section, which she was not planning and certainly didn't want. And it was actually breastfeeding for her that she felt saved her psychologically. I found that fascinating. It's a point of view, clearly, and it's her experience. Siobhan on Twitter says,

really emotional listening to Kat's story as it brings back the fear and guilt and worry felt eight years ago in the same situation. I didn't produce enough milk, so eventually gave top-ups with formula. Did the same with more recent babies, but with less guilt, says Siobhan. Thank you for that. And Suze, I breastfed my three, still feeding a two-year-old. I have loved it and hated it.

It's been the best thing ever and the worst all at once. You, Kat, didn't fail. The support and information given to you failed. If mums could access support and understand how our bodies work, it would make such a difference. Right, let's hear our next mum. As I say, a whole range of experiences. And this is Rebecca, whose experience was very different.

She's 35. She's from Sharrow in Sheffield. She had an unplanned home birth, lost quite a bit of blood during labour, and she believes that had a serious impact on her ability to breastfeed, which she did really want to do. They kept putting her on me and kept putting my nipple to her and she would kind of sort of latch on and then everyone would be like, oh, that's great, and then she would suck a couple of times and then nothing but I was really confident it would happen and so I just thought everything will be fine it will sort itself out we had to stay in overnight

wave my husband off everything was fine and then she just absolutely refused to come anywhere near me various midwives were sort of putting her on me seemed like she was feeding but only for about 10 seconds and then she would stop again I was getting very confused about what was happening so I was very stressed very alone in a lot of pain and it got to the point where I was just sobbing but I've never felt as alone at that point and she continued to refuse to feed and then a healthcare support worker or somebody came and said that's the sound of your baby starving what you're going to do and I said what do you think I should do and she said oh I can't tell you that you need to make a

decision so I'd not slept for 48 hours and then at that point they said well you could give the child a cup of formula to keep her going so So we did that and then she fell asleep. Next morning, as my husband arrived, I was just there again holding the baby with various midwives with my boob, trying to shove it in her mouth, trying to get it to feed. And it was, I just collapsed basically. At this stage, all these midwives surrounding you, what did they say? A variety of things, that my latch wasn't right that her mouth was too small that there wasn't enough milk coming we needed to try and hand express at no point did anyone sit down and say to me you've lost so much blood because you hemorrhaged that's potentially

a reason why your milk isn't coming or you're not having anything at this point. So all throughout this, I just thought it was me not being able to do it. We eventually got a private room because I just could not stay on that ward any longer on my own. The thought of another night, I've never been more scared of the thought of another night on my own in a ward trying to feed that baby. So my husband and I and the baby were put into a private room and then we spent another two or three days there with so many different people trying to help, but they were all completely different people

who were giving slightly different advice. And it was all contradicting to some degree. I was just so confused, but I also was so tired and overwhelmed and I just thought I just wasn't getting it. It happened a few times that they would come in and say look she's so hungry she's starving you're gonna have to do a top-up feed you're gonna have to give a formula but then I also had midwives saying we had someone in last week who was in for eight days and didn't leave until she'd established breastfeeding if that's

what you need that's what you need But my husband had gone from being so evangelical about wanting the baby to be breastfed to within 24 hours saying, this is not good for you, it's not good for the baby. And in the end, my sister came at the same time as an infant feeding support worker and they spoke with me about what did I actually want. And I said, I just want to be at home,

I need to be out of this hospital. And they said, well, the only way you're going to be able to leave is if you say that you're going to bottle feed and then maybe try carry on with the breastfeeding I felt elated to start with that I'd made a decision but then within half an hour just this huge sense of guilt and that I'd given up too early and shame even of how I was going to be viewed by other people by friends who had children that are breastfeeding them I just felt like a failure failure guilt shame we do hear those words a great deal and women are just expert in giving themselves a really hard time but it's the use of that word starving, Kat, that is absolutely horrendous. Yeah, I mean, I heard it.

Then when, obviously, when I was talking to Rebecca, I was, when she said that the very same thing had happened, that she'd been told that her baby was starving. And another one, another of the women that I spoke to said something very, very similar had happened to her. You are an exposed nerve at that point. And words like starving, so emotive, especially when in your mind

and you're being told by other people that what you're doing is the absolute right thing. So it's very disconcerting to be told you what you're doing is right and at the same time told what you're doing is starving your child. It's very, very difficult. There is a video of six of the mothers that we've been speaking to

right now on the Woman's Hour website. It's really good. It's called Feeding Your Baby, Six New Mums on the Plan vs. the Reality. So go to bbc.co.uk slash Woman's Hour. You can watch that video right now. We've got another Rebeccabecca this is rebecca who's 24 she's from barnsley her son jensen is one she really wanted to breastfeed him but soon into her pregnancy she realized that couldn't be an option for her because of various medical

conditions i'm a type 1 diabetic i'm epileptic so i was at the hospital every week and they said look what what was your decision on feeding so I said I really want to breastfeed and they said unfortunately you can't if if it wasn't for my epilepsy they'd be so up for it because it's so beneficial for my diabetes it stabilizes it but because of the medication that I was stabilised on, they didn't want me to swap it and it could affect my son to be so drowsy, sedating. So they were just like, sorry but no. How did you feel when they told you that? I was so gutted, really, really upset.

They sat and talked to me about it and made me understand more of why I couldn't do it but you know it's what I wanted to do and I had to sort of change my plans then and as well before before I was born I went to um antenatal classes and it came one of the sessions was breastfeeding and they asked me why I chose to bottle feed and I said, well, it's not really a choice, you know, I've got to bottle feed because of my health. And they were just like, well, can't you come off your medication? Just stop it and you can breastfeed.

I don't understand why you need to bottle feed. Who was this? Was this...? This was the woman who ran the classes that said, well, why can't you stop? And how did that make you feel when she said that? I could have cried. I just felt so... Cos everyone else in the class were older mums as well, and I was the youngest, so that made me feel a little bit uncomfortable.

And then the rest of the mums were breastfeeding, so it felt a bit like everyone were looking down at me. She's only bottle-feeding cos she's young, she can't be bothered, you know, and I just, I left, I didn't go back after that session. That's Rebecca. I mean, that is a miserable sounding experience for her. Your heart goes out to her. And Lizzie on Twitter says, it's heartbreaking listening to this, bringing back so many memories.

We fail women by both lack of infant feeding support and moralised, non-evidence-based breastfeeding interventions um that's lizzie's point of view we need to be clear about rebecca's situation we need to be clear that um she was given advice based on the specific medication she was uh she was taking for her epilepsy that that um could cause issues for her baby and of course if you are in a situation where you are on medication, you need to get advice from your doctor specific to the medication that you are taking. OK, loads of tweets coming in at BBC Women's Hour.

I'll do my best to keep up with the fair sprinkling of them. But of course, their podcast will be available later with more material in there as ever. Now, not all the women who switch to formula, either because they've had advice to do so or because they want to do so, feel quite the same as Rebecca. Nazneen ended up at the Sheffield Children's Hospital with her son because of his weight loss. We walked in and we went into the assessment area and I just burst into tears and I cried. And they were like, yeah, he's just hungry, you need to feed him. I'm like, no, really, is he? I didn't know. Just cried a lot and went home. And then my mum marched me to the supermarket and bought me formula and made a bottle

and sent me upstairs to have a bath and fed him. And that was that. How did you feel about the fact you were feeding him formula? That, actually, I didn't really care about. I just thought he's feeding. He's got to be feeling better. He's got to put weight on. And he was quite, he was jaundiced as well. So that was fading. I just was like, why did no one tell me? Why is this a secret? Why did no one tell me that this was the best thing ever? And it really was the best thing ever. That's Nazneen, who fortunately

had her mum. And there are actually times like that in your life when the one person you do want to see is your mum she certainly came to the rescue there. Now what would you say about that Kat? I found her attitude just wonderful it was very heartening to speak to a woman who didn't mention the word guilt as many times as a lot of the other women. And it was just wonderful. I'd like to bottle some of her attitude and sell it. Okay.

We need to put the other point of view. This is from Flora. You do need to mention colostrum. Milk doesn't come in straight after the birth. Yeah, colostrum is the vital fluid that does, I think, come from the breast straight after birth. And then the milk comes in 48 hours or so after the birth has taken place. Please be fair, says Flora in this email. This is one sided. For those of us who've worked so hard to promote breastfeeding, it's depressing hearing the voices you've chosen. Well, I need to emphasise that there's a phone in

on Wednesday, Flora, you're more than welcome to call. We've got breastfeeding experts on the programme tomorrow as well when we reveal the results of the survey that we've commissioned in conjunction with BBC Radio Sheffield. And this is not about breastfeeding. This is about feeding your baby and why people make the decisions they do about how they're going to do it. Let's bring in the voice of Rizwana, who's 39. She's got a son who's two, who she's still breastfeeding.

And it was clear that she'd been prepared for things to be rather different to how they turned out. I'm Indian and my family are Muslim. And in our culture, what happens is when you birth for 40 days, it's seen a time for you and your child and you don't do anything but bond with your child and feed your child and everyone else does everything else around you and there is it just it's kind of social knowledge that breastfeeding is hard and people sometimes people can't do it and there's no shame in not being able to do it. And, you know, I know a whole

spectrum of people, people who do mixed feeding, people who do exclusive breastfeeding, and people who've just gone for bottle because it's more convenient or they were moving house. And there's no shame in saying that, you know, it's just like, you're busy, you have a life, you have other things, you have other kids. And, you know, having a child is just one thing that you're doing out of a whole host of things and life carries on and breastfeeding is just one way of feeding your child it's not seen as like the end of the world if you can't do it it's much more realistic and pragmatic attitude than I feel like in the west and so that's why I think there's less pressure. It's definitely encouraged and it's definitely supported through family networks. But there's

also no guilt or shame if you can't do it either. And in some ways, it's a lot more respectful of female autonomy. And there are other podcasts this week that are focused on feeding babies. On Tuesday, we discussed data from a survey jointly commissioned by Woman's Hour and BBC Radio Sheffield. And some of you shared your experiences and tips in Wednesday's phone-in. You can listen to them on BBC Sounds.

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