Woman's Hour - Parenting: Talking to Your Kids About Race and Racism

Episode Date: August 14, 2019

Talking to your kids about race and racism with Dr Pragya Agarwal and Freddie Harrel.

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey and this is the Woman's Hour Parenting Podcast. This week, talking to children about race and racism. Doesn't matter who you are, where you're living or what you look like. There are going to be occasions when you have to confront these, well, they can be somewhat difficult conversations. I've been talking to Dr Pragya Agarwal, who is a behavioural scientist and a diversity consultant. She spoke to the programme

from our studio in Liverpool. She has three daughters. Also involved was Freddie Harrell, who's the entrepreneur and blogger, and she has a toddler son. At the moment, Freddie and her family live in London. First of all all Pragya told me about her daughters. My eldest is 22 and I've got three-year-old twins so yes big age gap between them. Now what kind of conversations did you have with your oldest child? Well that's the interesting thing because I was a single parent for quite a long time and I was quite young and I brought her here. We moved to the UK. And so I don't think I explicitly talked to her about race and racial inequalities, although we did talk about injustices and looked at role models from. But I think the main focus

was trying to make your mark and work hard. And I think over the years, I realized that not talking to her about race or racial, even when we were racially profiled, when she was around 10, we were stopped by the police ones, which came as a shock. What do you mean racially profiled? So we were in a supermarket or we were just having a nice day out. And then somebody thought that there had been a spate of shoplifting around in the area. And we always lived in quite white, predominantly white areas. So I think they called the police because they thought we looked different. And so a policeman stopped us and just had a conversation. But I think I could see the shock on her face. She was just 10. And it was hugely shocking. And what I did was try to

calm her down and try to just make her understand that these things happen. But we didn't really explicitly talked about race. And then she studied in predominantly white schools and played in orchestras. And mostly she was the only Indian person there. And then she went to an elite university, which was predominantly white. and I think I realised over the years that it affected my mental health but also her mental health and so I learnt a lot over the years with my experience with her. Right, so based on your experience with your eldest daughter, what are you doing with your younger daughters?

I think it's also very different with them because they are mixed heritage. They're part Scottish, part Indian, and we live in a very non-diverse area. So for me, for them to take pride in their Indian heritage is really important because that might not happen naturally. And they are also not very distinctly coloured in the sense that they're white passing. So that can also mean that they have certain privileges that come with it. And I feel like so they go to nursery where they're the only mixed heritage children, there's nobody in the staff. So they're not seeing people from diverse backgrounds around them. So I think, for me, it has been really important that I bring in diverse books and diverse media and talk to them explicitly

that look everybody's skin colour is different and people might have different skin colour because children are not colour blind they notice skin colour like any other physical difference like glasses or long hair or height or anything. Yeah children notice everything and say everything don't they? Yes absolutely. They have no filter. Freddie tell tell us, your son, he is tiny, but he is growing up in London at the moment as a young mixed-race boy. Yeah. But your husband is, well, he is,

you describe him, actually, I'm going to leave it up to you. No, like, we had very different upbringings. He was, you know, he grew up in boarding school and it's like a different world kind of like more of a posh world and um that kind of a background with double-barret names not his but kind of this world and me you know I was born and raised in France so I was raised in France so it's very interesting like our son is uh you know he's half white and half black and he's not really half French.

You know, I realise I only speak to him in French because that's my culture, but he doesn't have French blood. And then obviously, like he's British and from, you know, from this background. For me, it's really important as well to frame all of those layers of identities with him and with the family. Having, obviously, married to you and with now a young son, I imagine you're very traditional, if I can put it that way. It's probably the wrong way to put it. But anyway, British partner is seeing the world in a whole different way, isn't he? Absolutely. I think, you know, Tom, my husband, when he grew up, you know,

first he was in Tutting and he went to the local school there in Streatham and really like it was very diverse, really loved it. When he moved to, you know, boarding school, that was also like a shock for him. And even where he is now, you know, he's 40 and he's still also kind of like, you know, coming to terms with this whole experience and this whole almost like shaping and the expectations laid on you. So he, but at the same time, the thing, the advantage is that for him, he was really affected and not necessarily in a positive way by this whole experience. He's always been kind of like, you know, just very diverse with people around him anyway.

And so the challenge now is that all of the friends that he grew up with in this world he grew up in, you think they're a certain way. And then when you bring different people, you know, like you have a black wife and you have a mixed race son, you're exposed to new opinions, new, you know, like point of views

from people that you thought you really knew well. And it goes to show you that these things, you know, racism or bias doesn't make someone a bad person. It doesn't, you know, like redefine you completely. No, no. But the difficulty is,

and you know this and you have already talked about it, is that your delightful, lovely, cuddly little boy might one day be seen by some people, not rightly, as some sort of threat. That's hideous, isn't it? Absolutely. If you look at Barack Obama, Barack Obama, you know, he's half white.

He was raised by his white mother. Everyone refers to him as a black man. So and especially, you know, so I want to be prepared for all of the situations. I think, you know, having Hugo has been is an amazing journey for me. You know, my whole journey so far was me as a black woman. And I had Hugo. And then a year later, you know, I lost my dad. And when I lost my dad, my brother, who I was already close to, we got even more closer.

And, you know, I was kind of like open much more like the experience of the black man in society which I think I didn't realize before like all of the things that my dad left with you know like the sorrow the frustrations you know all of this and so I see that and obviously I see the privileged background of my husband but also the downfall and the downsides of it. So what do you say to your little boy? So for me, it's really always insisting on how nice he is. We always say you're friendly, you're nice. You know, even if you not tell him off, but tell him don't do this, don't do that, he can get really upset. For me, it's very important to remind those boys, and he has a lot of energy,

to remind that he's nice, he's friendly. Because it's so quick to say you're naughty. You know, some boys are cheeky and some are naughty and they are bad. It's very I don't want him to think that is anything devilish or anything wicked in him. It's very important that he's human and his feelings are valid. All of his emotions. Yeah, I'm sure you'd agree, Pragya, that the experience of your little girls is likely to be different, isn't it? They won't be seen in quite the same way. No, absolutely. And also, I agree with Freddie about my husband is Scottish, and

he brings with him white privilege. And I think he's had to acknowledge and learn so much. And I think as parents, we have to accept and acknowledge and be aware of our own implicit biases, because the way we are brought up and the way we grow up and the people we have around us and our parents and our friends shape so much about it. And so, in fact, I'm writing a book about unconscious bias at the moment, which is coming out early next year, about how we can educate ourselves. And so I think that's what we are doing both as a couple, educating ourselves as much as possible, so that they grow up and they understand their privileges, but also when they might be seen

differently by other people as well. So I think that can affect their sense of identity. And for children's mental health and physical health, I think it's really important that they have a sense of belonging and a sense of identity. Do your children go to a nursery, do they, Pragya? Yes, yes, they go to a nursery nearby. And what have they said about it? Well, there's nobody. So I was really surprised that there's no other child who's even mixed race or non-white there or even amongst the staff, which is very unusual in today's world. And so they haven't seen anybody who looks different to them or to except me and their elder sister. So when we actually went to India for the first time in March, they were quite and they actually shot for a Bollywood film in Glasgow last year.

And they were quite fearful of people who initially and they were really reluctant to be near them and I realized that they were just because they were unfamiliar to them and children from as young as three months old start noticing familiar skin color and so it was they were watching us me and my husband and our reactions to people to pick up cues about how we would react if you were awkward or uncomfortable or if you were just making it a norm so I think for, it's really important that they don't understand whiteness is a norm. They understand that people are different. Is any child just too young to be bothered by any of this, Pragya? I think it's important to obviously do it in an age-appropriate way, but we have to start early because children, as I said, from as young as three months start noticing. And as at three years old, they have these transductive reasoning where they say that

if people are alike in one way, then they must be alike in other ways. So stereotypes start forming. So it's important we start talking about bringing diverse books. I think that's really, really important. So they don't just see that one kind of person is the norm. They start seeing these different diverse characters, that people do different things. They look at role models, that people might have a different skin color, can behave in a certain way. Just because somebody has a skin color doesn't mean that they will be like everybody else who has the same skin color. So I think it's never too early. And as they grow older, they can start learning more about history and stories and part of our heritage. And because if they understand history, then they understand the future and the present.

I think that's really important. Yeah. No, thank you. Freddie, you've been very public about the challenges you know your son is going to face. What reaction have you had to that? Well, I think I've had a lot of positive reaction most people they were really uh you know like this conversation like you know the conversation around first like mixed race couples and then uh you know like raising a mixed race boys and having um there's so many things that are said out loud and so many like you know in this day and age like people have

a lot of opinions around those things so every time that you say something and people can relate to experience you're always going to be supported. I feel like a lot of people who are in my situation and don't really know how to navigate that. I feel like a lot of people think that because we are black

or from minorities, we are like born natural to be comfortable in those conversations. And you're like, no, like we're just pushed into them. Of course, why would you think that? And it's not exactly.

And we come across as these people who can be defensive and can be angry or aggressive. Like, oh, you always talk about these things. But why do you think that I do? I don't enjoy it as much as you think I do. And if you find it uncomfortable, just imagine that for me, it's much more uncomfortable. It's not nice to have to completely to always remind people that, you know, like we are the same thing. We are just one. You're not better or inferior.

Pragya? Like we are the same thing. We are just one like you're not better or inferior. Yes, absolutely. I think race is real and consequences of racism and racial inequality are real. And people who are black or brown or mixed race or people of colour, they don't have the privilege to not talk about this because we are facing some kind of microaggression, aversive racism, and we are hyper aware of our identities. So I think we don't have the privilege, but I think it's important for parents and people who are not people of colour or who are white to actually understand that, acknowledge that,

and actually take an active role in talking about it, I think. That's exactly what I say to my husband. Absolutely. My husband, for me, I always tell him it's an amazing opportunity that you have here because you can, you know, just extend that to your circle. You know, he was at a dinner party at a bar there recently.

I was in there and I was speaking to a friend about Hugo and, you know, him being careful around the way he's treated. And one of his friends was like, oh, like, you're very into these, you know, like race topics, aren't you? And then, but like. Yeah, I know. know i mean it's the same as he said yeah but you know you had to say it was like but it was like but you know like do you say so where do you think barack obama so what do you think barack obama is another person said he's black like what do you see so i have a black son so i have skin in the game so of course i'm into this uh these topics what do you mean i know

my husband has had to learn so much i mean mean, he's amazing. And he's really like talking about these things actively. But we live in this illusion, this myth that we live in a post racial world, but that's not true. So we can't just pretend that colour or race doesn't exist. Pragya Agarwal and Freddie Harrell on Woman's Hour and to your emails. This is from Julie. My son was telling me about a boy at his school who was the school naughty boy, but not nasty, just exuberant. This little boy, called Daniel, was black and at no time during my son's description did he ever mention that. He told me the teacher's name, that he had dark curly hair, he was tall, skinny, etc.

When the penny eventually dropped that he was talking about the only child in the school with a different colour skin, I was elated. But my point is not all children see skin colour as being different. They see the person. It's adults who see the differences on most occasions. It's how we bring our children up. Alison says both my children are adopted from Sri Lanka. They did go to an international school. Interestingly, when my son told his class his story at the age of seven, his friends were surprised that I wasn't his first mummy. They just hadn't seen any difference between us, the skin colour, that is, until it was pointed out.

The children would only see the difference in the colour of tops worn or the people who wore glasses. Jess says, That said, the way to combat and navigate this isn't always to insist that your black and mixed race children are extraordinarily nice and friendly to counteract racism and unconscious bias. Another unspoken microaggression young people of colour experience is the lack of space to express all of their feelings. It is valid to express anger and naughtiness and pain as a person. Expressing all emotions is a human right. This is an anonymous email. I'm British Asian, born and raised here. Although until we open our mouths, people still think we're just off a boat. My parents are Sri Lankan born. My husband is white Jewish. We've got two beautiful children, 10 and 8, and we've been together since we were 21. It took seven years for his parents to accept us. We've been married now for 13. I grew up in diverse Brent and I still live in North London, but the Jewish community is very white. I do my best to show our children their Asian heritage, but I don't have an extended family here. I'm constantly arguing down casual and sometimes actual racism from the white,

usually older, Jewish community. And Carol says, as a black mother, I'd be very surprised if any parent of colour hasn't had or doesn't have what we call the conversation at different ages with all of their children. I love being black and it's so important for children to understand the power and health of their melanin, their hair and the richness of their culture. Most importantly, black boys need to be taught how to behave when they're stopped by the police. It is a deeply dehumanising experience and has happened to my son, my brothers who remain traumatised by it and my husband. Therefore, as a black parent, I believe it is irresponsible not to plan the time to discuss racism with them throughout their childhood and youth. Thanks for that, Carol. Depressing, but

thank you for making contact with us. And of course, many people made the point that whatever you look like, whatever your ethnicity, we all need to talk to our children about how to counteract racism. If you have any ideas for the Woman's Hour parenting podcast, contact the programme via our website, bbc.co.uk slash womanshour. Thank you. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

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