Woman's Hour - Paris Hilton, FGM report, Annie Lennox, Country-pop duo Ward Thomas

Episode Date: March 18, 2023

Paris Hilton has been called ‘the first influencer’ and is known for being an ‘it-girl’. But behind the paparazzi pictures there’s a darker story. Now for the first time, Paris is telling her story in her own words in her new book Paris: The Memoir. She joins Anita Rani to talk about her life, why she wanted to write her story now, and being a new mother. A major report has been published looking into the experiences of survivors of FGM in accessing post-FGM healthcare in the UK. Nuala McGovern speaks to Dr Laura Jones, University of Birmingham, one of the lead authors on the report; Mama Sylla, a survivor of FGM who has been recognised by the government for her work in raising awareness of FGM and Juliet Albert, Specialist FGM Midwife at Imperial College.Multi-award winning singer-songwriter Annie Lennox has been using her voice for activism for the last 15 years. Now, she is fighting to get garment workers across the world a living wage. In a Woman’s Hour exclusive, Anita Rani speaks to her about her charity, The Circle, her belief in Global Feminism, and what it was like to meet Joni Mitchell. They are joined by Kalpona Akter, an ambassador for The Circle who worked in a garment factory when she was just 12 years old. Ward Thomas are an English modern country-pop duo, composed of twin sisters Catherine and Lizzy. They join Nuala McGovern to talk about their UK tour and brand new album, Music In The Madness, as well as the stigma around country music and how it’s changed.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Lottie Garton

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good afternoon and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour. It's the programme where we gather all the best bits from the week and put them in one place so you don't have to go anywhere. You're welcome. Coming up, Paris Hilton tells us her story in her own words. I was in shock. I didn't believe it at first because I didn't even remember it at this point.

I was mortified, heartbroken, humiliated, and I didn't want to leave my house. It was a really painful time for my family and I. Plus, the one and only Annie Lennox on a project that's close to her heart. You have to be brave and you have to be courageous. But still, if you recognise that you can be that agent of change and you can galvanise other people around you that see the potential and see the possibility, it's amazing the kind of things that can actually change. So if you're feeling a little low on inspiration today, Annie will get it back for you. So grab a mug of something warm or indeed a glass of something chilled and settle in.

Now, a guest who has been called the first ever influencer and the inventor of the selfie. However you may describe her, there is no doubt she's an icon. I'm talking about Paris Hilton. Paris exploded onto our screens in the noughties with her hit reality TV show, The Simple Life. In the two decades since, she's built a multi-billion dollar business empire. She's worked as a model, a singer, an actor, a TV chef, a fashion designer, and the highest paid female DJ in the world. Well, her new book, Paris, the memoir describes an enviably glamorous life. But behind the celebrity glitter, there was a much darker side to her story. When I spoke to Paris, I started by asking her why she wanted to write about her life now. I just feel that the media has told my story for the past two decades and they had no idea who I truly was and I just

felt that it was such an important story to tell because I know there's so many people out there who experienced certain things that I have and I just want people to know that they are not alone. What's it like to talk about? It's one thing writing a memoir and putting it all out there. But once it's out there and now you have to talk about it, what's that experience been like? It's been emotional for sure, because some of the subjects in this book are really hard to talk about. But it's also just this whole experience of writing the book has been extremely therapeutic and just I've just learned so much about my life through writing it all down right

learned some I did learned a lot about yourself yes definitely just so many memories I tried to not remember just because they were so painful but then also I've lived such an exciting full life as well so in the book I really get into it all. You really do and it is it's a difficult read at times I mean you start the book with the story of your epic 21st birthday party you know we'd expect nothing less and it ends with you doing a skydive horribly hungover but it's actually the story of what led up to that point that no one knows about so I'm going to go back to the first revelation that comes out of the book, which is you were groomed by a teacher at school. But of course, the word grooming didn't even exist then, did it? No, it did not. This was when I was in eighth grade and this teacher completely took advantage of his power.

And yeah, there was no word for it back then and you say in the book that you've I think you describe it as going red writing about it probably presumably shame and I felt red with rage reading about it and it was because of that incident that you were sent to live with uh Graham Cracker your grandmother my parents didn't even know who it was they just thought it was some boy I actually asked my mom a week ago. I was like, do you remember that night when you were chasing me in the car with that? And did you know who that was? And she was like, no, who was that?

So she didn't even know at that point. So you never talked about it? Never. Why not? Because when I, that night I pretended that I was never out. So my mom came to my bed. I was like, oh, it wasn't me. And then we just never talked about it again.

So how difficult was it writing about it? Very difficult. I wrote about things in this book that I've never told my closest friends, my family, no one. This was like writing a diary, just all of the things that are really difficult to talk about and really difficult to even write about. And then you were sent to live with your grandmother, who sounds amazing, by the way, graham cracker. Yes. Who lived in Palm Springs. But you were sent on your own. Your parents were living in New York in the Hotel Waldorf Astoria. And you were sent, was it as a punishment? I think that they were just worried because I was a teenager. I was starting to rebel and sneak out

and they were just nervous to bring me into New York City. There's just so much that's happening there. And they just thought that I would be safer at home with my grandmother in the desert because it's obviously a different lifestyle than New York City. But quite the opposite happened because you talk about another incident, a date rape incident that happened whilst you were staying with your grandmother yeah I went to Los Angeles during the weekends and I experienced that yes hard to talk about it is hard to talk about because that was something that I after it happened I just didn't want to think about it. And I was holding on to this shame, which I realize now as

an adult, that so many people hold on to shame when the shame shouldn't be on them, it should be on the person that hurt them. And I know that there's so many other girls that have been through the same experience, and they don't talk about it either, because it's difficult, and people will judge them. But now I think it's important for people to know that they're not alone and to hold people accountable for what they did to them. And you talking about it is very powerful. I think it's important for people, especially with a platform to talk about because life isn't perfect and people go through so many things. And I just want people to know that they're not alone

and that I see them. One of the hardest bits to read in the book was you talking about the behavioral modification program that you were sent on between the age of 16 to 18. Can you explain for the listeners who might not be familiar with what this so-called troubled teen industry is? It's basically this string of schools. There's now thousands of them around the world, and it's a multibillion-dollar industry where hundreds of thousands of children are sent every year. And they're called emotional growth schools, but when I was there, I was mentally, physically, emotionally,

psychologically, and sexually abused. And my parents had no idea. They thought that I was just going to this normal boarding school. My family had no idea what happened until 20 years later. Why did this end you? Because I was sneaking out at night. I was getting really bad grades. I have ADHD, which I didn't even know until I was 20.

So I just couldn't concentrate in school and was getting kicked out of school. And they asked a therapist what they should do, and he recommended the school. We actually reached out to the school, Provo Canyon School, and they said in a statement to us that Provo Canyon School was sold by its previous ownership in August 2000. We therefore cannot comment on the operations or student experience prior to that time. We do not condone or promote any form of abuse. So that's what they've told us now when we reached out to them. Where on earth did you get the mental strength to see you through that time? I just thought about who I wanted to be and what I wanted to become when I got out of there.

That was the only thing that kept me going. Which was what? I just wanted to become so successful that nobody could ever control me or tell me what to do ever again and I didn't want to depend on anyone but myself and then you get a call at the age of 21 to say that um a sex tape had been leaked by a boyfriend you were with when you were at the age of 19 and then later that year the same ex-boyfriend sells a longer version of the tape what did that feel like when you got that call I was in shock I didn't believe it at first because I didn't even remember it at this point I was mortified heartbroken humiliated and I didn't want to leave my house it was a really painful time for my family and I

it makes you wonder it still is to this day it probably will be for the rest of my life yeah it will be for the rest of my life how much did it hurt when you would read people suggesting that you had put this out there yourself to further your career that was the most hurtful part about it the people would think that I would do something like that. And to be judged and treated so cruelly and viciously for one night with someone that I really trusted and cared about when I thought that no one would ever see that. Why do you think people love to hate you so much?

I don't know. It's just something that I've experienced, I think, because people didn't know the real me. Because there were so many portrayals of you in the media that were just cruel. There was a famous headline that was in the front cover of the New York Post that was a picture of you, Lindsay Lohan, and Britney Spears that just said, bimbo summit. What do you think of when you think of back to that time? Just, we were just young girls living our life and we had a magnifying glass on us. And it was, I don't know how they made us out to be

like we were bad people, just because we were doing what every other girl was doing, just going out at night, being young, being free, having fun. And they, again, villainized us for it. But I just wonder what the satisfaction is. I just think the early 2000s, especially, were all about tearing women down. It's interesting because all three of you now are in very different places in your life. Yes.

And I wonder how much of this is now three powerful young women who are now reclaiming their narratives. I'm just so happy for all of us. Hearing Lindsay is pregnant was such great news and Brittany being married and just, I don't know, they're all grown up now. And I just feel that people are finally seeing just how unfairly it was the way that we were treated.

How much of what was happening at the time, though, I guess this is what people want to know, was it a give and take relationship? Yes media were portraying you in these in this way and there were some horrible headlines written about you and lots of misogyny around three young women who are just living their lives but the same time you were getting quite a bit out of the attention as well so I just wonder what the what the balance was was there a we do this for you and you do that for us relationship? It was just you had no other choice. I lived right on Kings Road above Sunset Boulevard. So they were always there. Every time I left my house, it was 50 cars waiting outside, helicopters, people jumping over fences. From the moment I left my house until I went to

bed at night, there were people trailing me, chasing me, paparazzi getting in fights with each other to try to get the shot. It was just constant every single second. So, you know, you might as well play and do it and smile and look good in the photos rather than fighting it. And I think if anyone does that, or you give a middle finger or you throw something like some people have done, it just makes you look bad. So just smile and smile through it. In January, you and your husband became parents for the first time. Congratulations. Thank you. Baby Phoenix.

Yes. Surrogate. Because you've talked openly about your fear of giving birth. I'm so terrified of anything to do with that. Needles and it all. I'm just so scared. How is motherhood? I love it.

I feel that this is what I was born to be. I'm so obsessed with him. He just melts my heart and I just love him so much. I miss him. How is life different? My priorities have completely shifted. I just feel that I'm so protective of my little baby boy and I'm saying no to basically as many things as possible

so I can be with him and he's just my world. Well, that was just a small part of my chat with Paris Hilton. We spoke more about her upbringing as well as what she's doing next and also an anecdote about a crafty party escape she did with Britney Spears and Lindsay Lohan. You can listen to the whole interview on BBC Sounds, just search for Woman's Hour, and it's the episode from the 16th of March.

Now, a major report was published earlier this week, and Woman's Hour had the exclusive first look at it. The report looks into the experiences of survivors of FGM in accessing post-FGM healthcare in the UK and identifies a postcode lottery where pockets across the nation offer excellent care whilst other areas show failings in the healthcare being offered. While Dr Laura Jones from the University of Birmingham is one of the lead authors on the report, she joined NULA and started by explaining exactly what FGM means.

So FGM involves injuring or removing parts of a girl or a woman's external genitalia where there's no medical reason to do so. There's no health benefits of FGM and many women and girls experience lifelong negative consequences as a result. And there are different types? There are. There are four main types of FGM with the most serious or severe being type 3 which involves basically cutting and sewing together of the genitalia leaving just a really small hole to menstruate or urinate through and women and girls with type 3 FGM can have an operation to open their vagina we call it de-infibulation and that's been shown to improve health and well-being for those women with that particular type of FGM. Do we know how many women we are talking about in the UK that are survivors of FGM? Not really. So our data aren't very accurate or

reliable at the moment. We tend to find that because actually it's a hidden practice. It means that women and girls need to present in healthcare for us to be able to document and record that. There was a study that was published in 2015 using the 2011 census data that, based on a woman's country of birth, suggested that there were 137,000 women and girls living with the consequences of FGM in the UK at that time. But we do know from the evidence base at the moment that women and girls tend to live in all of the different local authorities across England and Wales. So an important healthcare kind of need across the UK. So with this study, the findings that are just being released in the past few minutes,

what should our listeners know? OK, so we undertook one of the largest studies of its kind in the UK. What we wanted to do was to understand what survivors, men and healthcare professionals think about current services,

what's working, what's not working and whether we can improve things going forward. And as part of that study... Can I stop you for a second? Just because when I was reading about this and it said survivors, what's not working, and whether we can improve things going forward. And as part of that study... Can I stop you for a second? Just because when I was reading about this and it said survivors, men and healthcare professionals, and people might wonder,

why are men thrown in the middle of that? And what men are we talking about? Of course. So these were men whose partners or family members had experienced FGM. And we know from the open space that the men's views are important and that they are involved in FGM. And we know from the open space that the men's views are important and that they are involved in FGM and that their health and well-being can also be impacted

by if their partner or wife has been cut and thinking about whether we need to offer services to men and hear their voices as well as survivors and thinking about supporting FGM affected communities who live in the UK. And when you say the word cut, of course, you're talking about people who have gone through FGM. Sorry, continue, Laura. So with the findings. Okay, so some survivors told us that they had really good positive experiences of healthcare in the UK. However, these tended to be relatively few and far between. We found that FGM care was inconsistent, it varied greatly across the country. Survivors told us that they didn't know where to go for help or how to

ask for it and even when they were able to access support, the services available to them were often limited. It limited their choice and their preferences for care. Generally there was good help to support the physical needs of FGM survivors, but there was much less support around their mental health needs. And this is really important given the trauma that some survivors might experience around their FGM. Overall, survivors and their families are not getting the right information at the right time to make informed choices about their own health and wellbeing. I want to bring in Mama Silla. You're welcome to the program, Mama. And I know you always knew you'd had FGM, but you didn't know much more than that until you became

pregnant. Can you tell us a little bit about that and your encounter, I suppose, your first encounter with a health care professional when it came to FGM in the UK? Oh, yes. I came from a country with the highest prevalence of FGM which is Guinea. So basically every woman and girl is caught and I grew up knowing it's normal until I got pregnant seven years ago and then I went to the hospital for my antenatal appointment. So my big surprise, I missed one appointment, I went away to France. Then I was cold, really. They said, why did you miss it? I said, well, I'm not sure it was that important because I've been coming often. They said, no, you must come. So when I came back, I went to the hospital. Then I woke

in, I saw the midwife. Then she said to me, oh, have you been caught? I said, yes. I said, why? She said, well, do you know what type of FGM did you have basically that was the first time I'm hearing about type I didn't even know the host type that existed I said no really I don't know if there is even type of FGM she said well do you mind us checking I said no I don't mind then she went on she checked then she said to me do you know the like the low side of FGM in the UK? Again, I said, no, nothing really. I don't know. I never question my FGM because, again, my community, every woman is cut, so for me it's normal.

And she said, well, at the moment, we don't even know whether you're having a boy or girl. However, I just let you know, once you have the baby and you happen to go back to your country of origin and your mother or family members take the baby and cut her, if she's a girl, when you come back, you're going to be into trouble. They will send you to prison and then you lose your child. So I was kind of shocked.

Because you didn't realise it was illegal in the UK? No, no, I didn't realise it was illegal in the UK? No, no, I didn't realise it was illegal in the UK and myself, I didn't know like their type of FGM. So I was really shocked. Were you happy with the way you interacted with that healthcare professional? Did you get good care, do you think? Yeah, the very first time, yes, that was, she was really like um open and she told me i was happy the way we interacted but i was i wanted to do to know more like digging deeper to know really more about like those type of things and then how or the woman from my own community if they know more about it so what i did while i sitting, coming back home on the bus,

I was like checking what organization work on FGM, if there's any member of my community involved. So basically when I checked all the organization that I found while I was Googling on the internet, they do work on FGM, but mainly with communities from Somalia and Sierra Leone or the Gambia, but nothing from Guinea. I understand then you did your own survey of sorts, asking your friends what they knew.

Yes, so I did my own survey from my family and friends from Guinea, obviously, to know what they know about their own experience of FGM. And I question about like 20 women. It's like 15 of them didn't know about type of FGM. They just knew that they've been caught, but they know nothing about type. Then I realized, again, when I check on those organizations working on FGM, when I didn't see Guinea mentioned, they always mentioned Guinea being the second highest country. However, in the UK here, the community members, they were not involved in those kind of talk.

Then I said, well, I think it's something that we need to do something about it. We need to talk about it. Because as for me, I never talked about it with even my own mom. So I just said, let's do something. That's the way I started digging then I went to the mosque so we organized the first workshop there people were happy I saw a lady who had type three obviously what Lola was mentioning about this was the first time she was she saw like someone from her own community talking about it so So when we finished the workshop, she wept on the floor.

And I was like, oh, why are you crying? She said, well, I've been talking about my, I've been wanting to talk about my own experience for years, but I couldn't because I didn't see anybody like from my own community talking about it. For me, like, because I had a boy then, I didn't, that was it. From that day on, no one ever spoke to me about it about the FGM. Well I want to bring in Juliet because you're a specialist FGM midwife and I

wonder when you hear Mama's story again and also of her friend what's going through your head about what needs to be in place for these women? Well, I think, thank you, Mama, it's just such important to hear that how something like having a health advocate working in the clinic, somebody who the women can identify with, having a woman who actually comes from an FGM practicing community working in the clinic with us. So they act as a bridge between the clinic and the clinic staff and the actual women so that they have a similar background. They may not have actually had FGM themselves, but they come from FGM practicing communities. They might be second generation, but they understand the history and they share the woman's identity. So having that kind of

cultural sensitivity is really important in FGM clinics. And the other thing I think that was important from what Mama was saying is having a counsellor in the clinic as well. Because Mama's saying, you know, she had half an hour and that was it, then she's kind of left. And then she's got to go home with all those memories and thoughts about when she was cut and how she felt about it. So having a counsellor integrated and sort of co-located in the clinic with us is really, really important so that women can have support if they need to talk about their trauma and giving them some sort of longer-term help.

Juliette Albert there, specialist FGM midwife at Imperial College. We also heard from Mama Silla, a survivor of FGM, and Dr Laura Jones from the University of Birmingham. Still to come on the programme, you'll hear from the brilliant twin sisters who've gone from Hampshire to Nashville with their beautiful country music. And remember, you can enjoy Woman's Hour

any hour of the day if you can't join us live at 10am during the week. All you need to do is head to BBC Sounds and search Woman's Hour. Now, the word legend is thrown around willy-nilly these days, but my next guest is a legit legend, Annie Lennox. When you hear her name, you might immediately think of dancing your heart out to Sweet Dreams Are Made Of This, or tearing up at her rendition of Every Time We Say Goodbye, or even the iconic orange hair and suit she wore in the Eurythmics videos in the 80s. But for the last 15 years, Annie's focus has been away from music. Instead, she's been using her

voice for activism, launching a charity called The Circle that connects women across the globe and helps them empower and support one another. At the moment, The Circle that connects women across the globe and helps them empower and support one another. At the moment, The Circle is working with garment workers across the world, 80% of whom are women, to fight for a living wage, a basic right that many of them don't have. In a Woman's Hour exclusive, I was lucky enough to speak to Annie alongside an ambassador for The Circle, Kalpana Akhtar, who worked in a garment factory in Bangladesh when she was only 12 years old. Annie started by telling me why she decided to start using her influence for good. You know, I had been so privileged because Comic Relief had sent me to various women projects in Malawi and Uganda and South Africa, also Oxfam.

And I had my whole paradigm shifted because I saw how girls were prevented from accessing education, how women were treated in these kind of countries as if they were the lowest class citizens. And the comparison between their lives and the kind of life that we have in western world is there is none i mean you know very often i thought it's it's like going back to the kensian times you know and it coming from poverty coming from disempowerment coming from lack of legal rights, coming from lack of legal rights, coming just from lack of everything. And it really, really affected me.

And so when I came back to the UK from visiting these projects and seeing the difference, where, you know, you have clean running water and you have access to so many things in general, I realized, wow, you know, what can I do? What on earth can I do? I want to be an agent for change. And I felt that if I could have conversations with like-minded women, perhaps we could find some way because, you know, it's overwhelming. The challenge is overwhelming, but, you know, you're looking for an inroads. So I, it's really started from having a conversation around a dinner table. So it grew organically, but it really comes from basically the, the real passionate desire to connect with women who have, who are massively disempowered in hundreds of countries around the world. You know, we

basically, they can be invisible to us. And we want to make that visible. We want to connect bridges where there are divides. We want to shine light. And we want to support grassroots organisations that are really making changes in their own countries. Kalpona, I wanted to ask you about your life, because we're talking, you are an activist in Bangladesh, you're fighting for a living wage, and you're fighting for rights within the garment industry. And as Annie says, it directly links to women in the West, because we are wearing your clothes, we can't get enough of them. However, I want to know about the impact it's having on women in Bangladesh. But let's start by hearing your story because you were 12 years old.

Is that right? When you started working in a garment factory, what was it like going to work in the factory at 12? I mean, very first day, it was super cultural shock for me. I didn't see that many people together except the school animal day and I never ever seen that the adults scream on adults with all the bad words like there was a verbal abuses in the factory and they're shouting screaming so I cried because you know it hurts me and my my first standard I was 16-hour shift, which I never thought of. And these 16 hours, I stood on my feet. There wasn't any place to sit down. When I went back home, I, you know, I hide my tears and pain because I completely knew why my mom had to send me to the, you know, factory. And one thing, years later, that I realized that I had to end up my life

in that factory in that age of 12 because my mom did not get the living wage. So if she would be getting living wage when she started working, she could have a nanny to take care of my baby sister. She, you know, absolutely can send me and my brother to the school, rather sending two of us to the factory. So I would be working over 400 hours in a month and only making six dollars. So that was my life. It is extreme poverty, which is that anyone can ever say. So when did you find the courage and when did you decide that you wanted to fight to change the system so yeah so when I was like 14 and a half in one in a month my you know production managers they came or middle managers in general they came to us by saying

that they will be paying us less for our overtime, which they're absolutely paying less. I mean, already paying less. So we said, no, you cannot do that. So I joined with the strikers. So it was 92 young men, you know, my 92 male worker, and I was only young female worker who joined with them and called a strike for 2,000 workers. And after back and forth negotiation, we won the strike. In the first hand, 26 workers got fired

without any severances. They rather, you know, accepting that, they started finding people or organization who can help them. So they ended up finding an organization called AFLI, Asian American Free Labor Institute. So that organization was helping they ended up finding an organization called uh affli asian american free labor institute so that organization was helping a group of government workers to have their own independent union educating workers on law this is something very new i came to know and they were helping with

legal aid that so worker can sue the factory owner for illegal termination so educating you in your in what your rights yes kalpana what i'm interested in is what what is it in you that decided you were going to be the one woman to stand up for your rights they were all men and you that's remarkable i mean yeah i mean my point was i really need that money because I did hard work. I have a plan with that money. And I need to support my family with that money. I mean, that is like a very basic thing I would know until I know the law. So when I came to know the law, that's a transformation.

I consider this a second born for me where the first time I learned that my worksheet supposed to be eight hours. This is first time somebody told me that you are a factory worker and there is a law that supposed to protect you. There is a minimum wage. There is a maternity leave. The supervisor supposed to not kick you when you are sit down in the stool. They should not be verbal or physically abuse you in the factory. It wasn't easy to become an organizer. So one evening with that gummy face, I went to my mom that, mom, do you think that I can do it? Because these people has lots of money and power and I'm just young, like not even 15 years,

I'm that girl. And something my mom said that is so beautiful and that is so inspiring that she said, you know, if there is injustice, someone can always stand up and speak out. If it is someone, then why not you? So that, you know, that's my, I call my mom as a powerhouse.

So my powerhouse given me that power that energizes me every single movement that yeah there is injustice and someone always can stand up and if it is someone why not me this story is incredible annie what kalpana's just said there about going in and it takes one person doesn't it one person to say i'm gonna i'm gonna fight to to create that spark amongst everyone else true this is true i mean you need someone who is determined and who is committed and who has the vision to create transformative change which is as calpona says isn't is never easy And you have to be brave and you have to be courageous. But still, if you recognize that you can be that agent of change and you can galvanize other people around you that see the potential and see the possibility, it's amazing the kind of things

that can actually change. When you thought for centuries and centuries, women and girls, for example, have been abused and taken advantage of in every single way, just exactly as Kalpona said. And we're just talking about one section here, working in factories. And Kalpona, I just want to share something personal with you, which is that my great-great-grandmother was working in a textile factory. Western women in their ancestry, especially from poorer working-class backgrounds, will be looking back to discover that their grandmothers, their great-grandmothers and before, have gone through the conditions that you are describing, Kalpona, and it's the changes, they can be made.

And you are a champion of change. And we in the circle want to champion you and other women like you who are making those changes happen. Kalpona, your activism is amazing. You're now in your 40s, mid-40s, so you've been fighting the good fight for a long time, but a huge risk to yourself as well. You have been targeted, haven't you? Many times. Yeah, it's not easy. You know, it's not easy to do activism here in Bangladesh or like many parts of the world.

So my voice has been criminalized many times. I was in prison for a month with my co-workers, severely detained. And it was mental torture when I was in detention. So my co-workers, one of them disappeared and brutally tortured and beaten to death. So when I leave home in the morning, I cannot promise my family that I'll be safe back at home. It is that dangerous to doing the activism in here. There is no voice of expression. But one thing that what my mom says, that energizes me. It feels like there's a real sense of global urgency.

Women are shouting from the rooftops, whether that's the Me Too movement in America, whether that's what's happening movement in America, whether that's what's happening in Afghanistan, what's happening in Iran at the moment. You know, you just look all over the world. Women are using their voices, but at great risk, at great risk. And that is the reality. So Kalpana, I would like to just say to you, you know, you've got the audience here, you've got a British audience listening to you on Woman's Hour. Why is it important for us to be connected to your fight? What would you like to say to the British audience listening? I know that when you are British audience, you are the consumers too. So when consumers hear the story of a factory worker or anyone from the

ground, they always in a dilemma, Should we buy or we shouldn't buy? Sometimes they feel guilty. You know what I would say? Don't feel guilt. Transform your guilt with anger. And next time when you go to the store or buy online, ask more questions. Go beyond color, size, style, and price. Start asking a few few more

quotient to the store manager that you wanted to know more about the worker who made this clothes for you how much they have been paid do they have a living wage is these workers do have a voice at workplace is this workplace safe if you can ask any of these two quot, I think that would be start ringing the bell in the boss's office. And that will make difference. You know, we need these jobs. Yeah. In a production country, we need these jobs because it helps us to understand what is the economic freedom is. But we want them with dignity. The fight I'm doing, I'm fighting for

a job with dignity. And the first step of dignity is a living wage. So be with us. The inspirational Kalpana actor and the brilliant Annie Lennox there, both absolute forces of nature. Now for some music. Ward Thomas are an English modern country pop duo made up of twin sisters, Catherine and Lizzie Ward-Thomas, born two minutes apart.

Cartwheels, their second studio album, became the first album by a UK country act to reach number one in the UK album charts. They'll soon set off on a UK tour and have a new album, Music in the Madness, which includes themes of love, family, unity and the healing power of music. Well, they joined Nuala in the studio and Lizzie told unity and the healing power of music. Well they joined Nuala in the studio and Lizzie told her how they got into country music. We grew up around the rural, we were very on a farm, we were in the rural background and we were introduced to country music by our cousin Libby who was from Canada. She bought all the Dixie Chicks, Miranda Lambert.

We were also heavily influenced by our parents who were in a band together but they did 60s and 70s rock classics so we were bound to get into music but country music just felt the most authentic to Catherine and I. And even at a younger age Catherine, 17 I believe, you headed off to Nashville. Yeah, we were literally doing our A-levels and then getting on a plane. So it was quite, yeah, it was quite go, go, go at that point. I think it's still going to be go, go, go because you're pregnant, I believe, and about to start a UK tour. Yeah, we hit the road next week, is it, on the 30th of March? In two weeks, yeah.

The first show in Glasgow and then we snake our way down the country and I'll be eight months pregnant. So it should be quite fun. I don't know how much jumping around I'll be doing on the stage, but... You can lean on Lizzie for that. I'll do that for you. I'll look like a crazy person jumping around on stage. There is a song, Flower Crown.

Tell me about that. So Flower Crown is the last song on our album, Music and the Madness. It's a very personal sister song for katherine and i um it's all about going through the changes in life as well you know both as twin sisters we've gone through a lot of big things in life life experiences and katherine's just got married and she's about to have a baby and we just wanted to write a song a personal song from both perspectives um kind of a conversation between the two of us.

And yeah, we hope that a lot of siblings can relate to that kind of song. I think so. Who inspires your songwriting? Well, a host of people. I mean, we're massive Taylor Swift fans. She's got a songwriting craft that is always just gets better and better and has sort of wordsmith. She's a wordsmith. We love Brandi Carlile. She's just, there's a passion with how she sings. The emotion in her voice. The emotion, yeah. And we're very much still Chicks fans now. Now the Chicks.

Now the Chicks, not the Dixieie chicks anymore. That's a whole other programme. Before I get you over to the microphone, I read there's three types of country music having a boom in the UK, apparently since the pandemic. There are loud and proud country music fans, apparently closeted country music fans, and then fans that don't call themselves country music fans, but they do love people like Johnny Cash.

Yes, that probably makes sense, actually. It's becoming less of a sort of dirty word, I think. It seems to be you don't have to wear a Stetson and cowboy boots to turn up to a country show and really enjoy it now. You can just really love the music, which is really nice. Catherine and Lizzie Ward-Thomas and the new Ward-Thomas album, Music in the Madness, is out now.

Well, that's all from me this afternoon, but Woman's Hour will be back from 10am on Monday morning. Make sure you join Nuala McGovern. She'll be talking to Georgia Harrison. Known for shows like Love Island and The Only Way's Essex, Georgia was a victim of so-called revenge porn after her ex Stephen Bear shared a private sex video of her on the OnlyFans website. Now she's waived her right to anonymity and made a documentary all about it.

That's Woman's Hour with Nuala from 10 on Monday. Enjoy doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.