Woman's Hour - Parisienne Cliché, Judy and Punch, Lady Glenconner

Episode Date: November 19, 2019

Criticised for not expressing sympathy for Jeffrey Epstein’s victims in his recent interview with BBC's Emily Maitlis, Prince Andrew has since told friends he ‘regretted’ not doing so. We consider how victims and survivors are so often an afterthought when allegations of sexual assault are being discussed. Actor Mia Wasikowska and director and writer Mirrah Foulkes discuss their new film, Judy & Punch, a dark fairy tale that turns the familiar seaside entertainment on its head. French women don’t get fat. They don’t age or struggle to look effortlessly chic either. We all know the cliché of the perfect French woman – but how much of it is true? Where does the stereotype come from? Alice Pfeiffer, author of the book Je ne suis pas Parisienne, takes us through the history of this problematic icon. Lady Glenconner grew up in one of the largest estates in England in Holkham Hall, Norfolk, visited by members of the Royal Family. She was maid of honour at the Queen’s Coronation, Lady in Waiting to Princess Margaret for three decades, and also portrayed in the new series of The Crown. She was married to the eccentric Colin Tennant, who bought the island of Mustique, turning it into an exclusive island for the rich, famous and aristocracy. She’s written a book about her life ‘Lady in Waiting’ My Extraordinary Life in the Shadow of the Crown’.Presenter: Jane Garvey Interviewed guest: Mia Wasikowska Interviewed guest: Mirrah Foulkes Interviewed guest: Madeleine Black Interviewed guest: Lizzy Dening Interviewed guest: Alice Pfeiffer Interviewed guest: Lady Glenconner Producer: Lucinda Montefiore

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. This is the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello, good morning to you. My guests today include Lady Glen Connor, who's written a memoir called Lady in Waiting. She worked for Princess Margaret. And boy, does she have some stories to tell. And has she led a life and a half?

She'll be on the programme live this morning. We'll talk about a new film, Judy and Punch, which is about domestic abuse and we'll debunk some of the myths and all the cliches about French women. How is it that all they do is smoke fags, eat loads of carbs and look fantastic and take lovers well into their 150th year? What is it about the French? What is it about French women on Woman's Hour today? Now, you'll already have heard this morning that another woman has come forward to accuse Jeffrey Epstein of sexually abusing her when she was 15.

She also called for Prince Andrew to share what he knows about his former friend. The accountancy firm KPMG has announced it won't renew its sponsorship of the prince's pitch at the palace scheme and we're also told the Prince now regrets not expressing sympathy for Epstein's victims in his interview with the BBC's Newsnight presenter Emily Maitlis. So much of the conversation since that interview has focused on the Prince's poor PR advice, his perceived arrogance and there's been a great deal of merriment, particularly on social media

about the involvement of a woking branch of Pizza Express. Not for the first time, the victims' voices and experiences are in danger of being somewhat forgotten here. So we thought we'd try to put that right this morning in the company of the journalist and vice chair of Peterborough Rape

Crisis and founder of Survivor Stories that's a website allowing women to share their stories of sexual assault. That's Lizzie Denning. Lizzie, good morning to you. Lizzie, can you hear me? Good morning. Yes, thank you. And Madeleine Black is with us as well, an activist, author and a survivor of sexual assault. First of all, here is a brief extract from an interview given by the lawyer

Gloria Ulrich. She is representing some of Jeffrey Epstein's victims. Many of them were very traumatized by what they suffered as a result of coming into contact with Mr. Epstein. And that harm continues today. So we're filing civil lawsuits. And in addition, the criminal investigation is a serious one and continues. And if there's sufficient evidence to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, I have no doubt that criminal charges then will be filed against others who have conspired with Mr. Epstein. Prince Andrew, to really feel what these victims have suffered. Because I feel in his interview that was broadcast on the BBC that, you know, he seemed to almost, except for Ms Roberts, not even mention the victims and how much they were harmed. And there are so many of them. They haven't received the whole truth. They haven't received justice. And it's time for him to

help. The lawyer, Gloria Allred. So Lizzie, the conversation really did move very quickly onto the issues surrounding the interview and the circumstances of the interview, rather than the victim's suffering. What do you think about that? Yeah, I think sadly, this is quite a common theme at the moment. I mean, I would say that obviously it's quite new for the media to have to deal with such a volume of cases like this, which is so high profile. So I think it's sort of feeling its way and I'm hoping things will improve. But I think I'm not alone in thinking that a lot of the conversation

has surrounded specific men of power and how they feel and how it's affected their families. And often what is lost is the stories of the victims. And it's sort of imbuing these men with a secondary form of power, which is over the narrative surrounding their own cases, which is obviously a bit disappointing. Madeleine, would you agree with that? Absolutely.

I do believe that when we give the voice to the perpetrators, that we silence women or victims even more. It makes it even harder for them to find their voice. So what should we do? What should we do now? Programmes like this can have conversations like this, but what about the wider world? I think it's about listening. It's about being open to people and listening

and creating an environment where we're not quick to victim blame. I think a lot of women and men and people of all genders who have been survivors of sexual violence struggle to share their stories, even among their own family and friends because of certain narratives which are just rife throughout society such as you know were you drinking what were you wearing and it's it's very tedious and of course completely irrelevant and one of the motives behind my website, Survivor Stories, is to create a sort of a pool of these stories so that eventually, hopefully, it will shut down some victim blaming.

Because if you've got people of all genders from all backgrounds, then it becomes harder to pin down incidents to particular behaviours or particular appearances. Madeleine, you are a survivor of appalling sexual assault. You are very open and speak out about what happened to you. Why? Well, it took me a long time to find my voice, but once I found out, I just refused to be silent because it was a crime that was committed against me and I don't believe I'm my body or the things that were done to me,

but it was the shame that kept me quiet you know I thought if people knew what had happened to me that they would look at me differently or think about me differently or wouldn't even want to know me but I realize now took me ages but the shame never belonged to me it always belonged to the perpetrators that a hundred percent of all rapes is only caused by rapists, nothing else. And I'm not what they did to me. I'm not my body. But I want to speak out to really help to end that shame

and the stigma and the silence and to help other people find their voice. Because every day I will get people messaging me that have heard me speak or read my book and saying, you know, I'd love to like your Instagram page, but I don't want people to guess that I'm liking your page because I've been raped as well. And that's really sad that the shame is huge for people to carry. And they keep on carrying it. And that's they keep on carrying it. So the impact of all this publicity surrounding Jeffrey Epstein, Madeleine, what is

the impact on women like you? It just angers me. It doesn't make it harder to sleep, for example? Is this constantly on your mind at the moment or is it always on your mind? No, I mean, I was 13 when I was gang raped, so it's a long time ago and I'm 54 and I've worked it a lot. So I can really speak and write about it because I am so OK. But, you know, it really just fuels my motivation to speak out more for all the people that can't find their voice. So the fact that during the course of that interview, and Emily Maitlis did give him the opportunity, Prince Andrew didn't really engage with the suffering of Epstein's victims. We didn't mention it at all. It was just unbecoming behaviour.

Well, he did at one point, I think, agree, and I think he used the term quite rightly when Emily Maitlis raised the fact that their voices were now being heard and their stories were being told. You know, it often feels too little too late. Our people are now speaking out and saying quite rightly because now they've been associated with this person, you know, it feels too little too late. It should have been the first thing.

Well, it's hard not to get into all the interview. Yeah, it's not right. Lizzie? Yeah, I mean, I completely agree. I think it's definitely too little, too late. I would say as well that one of the problems that the media has in general in talking about these issues is it's very keen for survivors to be named and photographed. And while it's incredible to have women like Madeleine, who I hugely admire, who are willing to do that, I think often what gets lost is the millions of stories from survivors who, for hundreds of reasons, choose to remain anonymous, which I think is a completely respectable decision. And that's another element to my website is that I am inviting anyone to share their story and they don't have to be named.

Because I think those, particularly the stories that get lost, if there's not a kind of a face behind them. You, I know, also have an issue with language. I think the media is not immune from criticism here. I think even the language used by the BBC sometimes can simply be wrong. Absolutely. I think any mention of sex in these sort of interviews,

I find, makes my hairs on the back of my neck stick up because sex of course implies consent it is an insult to people who are able to enjoy consensual sex to equate that with rape and trafficking which could not be further removed

so I think people need to be a bit more astute and a bit more thoughtful because it's the kind of death of a thousand cuts, things like that, are what trickle down and then stop people sharing their stories because the word sex implies he said, she said, whereas rape, that's not the case. It's a violent act against a person. So, yes, I think accurate terminology is one of my bugbears certainly. Madeleine?

I totally agree when you hear sentences like he forced her to have sex with her that's forcing someone to have sex to me translates as rape why can't we just say what it was that she was raped? And let's just all of us certainly those people who engage positively with this programme, remember that there are victims at the heart of this, whatever happens over the coming months. And those victims will have to live with it somehow for the rest of their lives. Thank you both very much indeed for talking to the programme this morning. You heard there from Madeleine Black and from Lizzie Denning, who's a journalist.

And she runs Survivor Stories. You can find that website via ours, ours actually bbc.co.uk slash woman's hour if you'd like to see the testimonies there or perhaps um and i hope you don't but perhaps you would be able to contribute to it too if you have endured something you're listening to woman's hour good morning and there are an enormous number of cliches surrounding french women and how they live their lives. They don't get fat, we're always told that. They just know what to do with a scarf, don't they? They always look incredibly chic and they're able to entertain lovers well into their 40th decade over very long

lunches on the Champs-Élysées. The rest of France doesn't really exist when it comes to French cliches. It's all about Paris, really, isn't it? You and I, well, we're home alone in elasticated waist trousers, eating a big box of Twiglets, but we're not French, or most of us aren't. So let's talk to Alice Pfeiffer, who is the author of a book called Je ne suis pas Parisienne. She was born in Paris, educated in England.

You don't actually have any, do you have any French blood, Alice? No, not at all, no. Both my parents are foreign, but my mother grew up in London and my father in Austria and they met in Paris. Right okay. But I'm technically Parisian though because I grew up up to the age 15 I had school three minutes away from the Eiffel Tower so I technically count but I don't identify to her in any way. Oh no look that'll do for me so you

really have had loads of long lunches on the Champs-Élysées then. Definitely. I have no lover, but yes. Okay. So this idea of French women, how much of a problem is it if you don't actually like the idea very much or you don't want to be a part of all the clichés surrounding it? I think the issue with the cliché is what it says between the lines, you know. So supposedly it's a very free look that can be adapted to everyone it's a philosophy of life but if if you if you have a closer look it's basically a skinny woman who wears what they call a boyfriend shirt so she's petite and she's also heterosexual and she um she wears stiletto heels by the eiffel tower before seeing her lover so she's only commutes in small distances and probably doesn't use public transport.

You know, she wears red lipstick or doesn't touch her hair. She's probably white because, you know, the rouge parisien, as we call it, Parisian red only works with the limited skin tones. And so it's if you look closer, basically what you see is a straight bourgeois, heterosexual white woman who supposedly speaks for the whole of France, even though we're a highly diverse country. This is the only face we see and there's no room for anyone else. You're right, of course, it is a much more diverse country than that cliche would have you believe. I think you would also say, to a degree, it supports the patriarchy.

Can you just expand on that? There's the idea of the male gaze, I think. Unlike Britain, we're a country that's highly macho and we're Catholic, supposedly not, but we're still very much a Catholic country. Officially secular, but. Officially secular, but in the norms and in the interactions, we're very macho.

And there's a myth of the bohemian artist like Serge Gainsbourg who's extremely macho. So it's all codes to fit a macho behavior for men. So it's the idea of a woman who's lighter, who's more petite, who's extremely

seductive, which is completely anti-feminist if you think about it. So it's a woman waiting for a man to, you know, make a move, essentially. And you have challenged this to a great extent, actually. What kind of reaction have you had? Oh, the reactions were good, I think. So far, so good, touch wood. I think it was directly addressed at all French women. So I think women were happy to see something that finally calls out a cliché that's absolutely everywhere.

That's in every advertising you can see, every ad perfume you can see, to sell absolutely anything from Eurostar tickets to tissues to luxury. So I think most people feel like a cheat, even though you might be from Paris. And if you don't come from Paris, it's even tougher. So I think people were relieved to see something that calls out a really dangerous process. Well, I don't think it was that long ago we featured it on this program, actually. The incident of harassment, a young woman who was, well, she didn't really pay sufficient attention, or that was what he felt, to a man who fancied her. Just to remind people of what happened there. Didn't he, he walked past a woman in a terrace of a coffee shop and tried to hit on her. She

didn't react or she sort of pushed him away. And then he just slapped her and started hitting her. And then she created the movement. Was was it balance to power she she basically created a structure for women to call out street harassment but what happened was that a gang of privileged women who were exactly like Parisian all signed a petition called the droid opportunity so the right to be bothered by men because they thought it was it was a beautiful tradition that needs to be kept. Yes, I do remember that and that was deeply unfortunate and I think involved quite a number of older

celebrity French women. All prominent, all white, all privileged. So there was definitely, for the first time, there was definitely a fracture between women, between the women who take public transport

and who actually do suffer from men hitting on them. And then the tiny, tiny majority, the tiny minority of women who speak for everyone else. Why don't you come and live here? I might. And then become a Parisienne and be perfectly obnoxious about it. Yes.

Well, I mean, you seem to think that Britain is better. I don't know. Are you convinced it really is? I think in terms of seduction and in terms of men-women relationship, I think you see a lot more diversity in bodies. You see a lot less harassment or street commenting. In France, there's a proximity that you have from being a Latin and a Mediterranean country. So men will actively comment on your appearance in the street. In my book, I tell the story of when I came back from 10 years in England and I ordered a pint and fries, you know, the British diet. Careful.

Yeah. And the waiter told me off because he told me it would make me fat. Sorry. Okay. Let me just stop you there. You are a grown woman ordering a pint and some chips yes and a man thought it was okay to challenge that he i wanted a second serving and he just said oh no i'm with him now no no no oh you wanted two helpings yeah exactly see all my fault and um and um no he just tapped on his hips and said, oh, mademoiselle, don't, you'll scare all the men away.

So I think in regards to Britain, I'm not saying it's perfect, but at least there's less pressure put on women by men actively and shamelessly. Remember, we come from a tradition of Serge Gainsbourg who recorded all sorts of naughty stuff. No, I think the figure of the artist and the bohemian passion is less present. Remember, we still have a term called crime of passion and that is if you hit your spouse out of fashion.

And that is still a legal term? Definitely, absolutely. And it's seen as an excuse if anything happens to a woman that you can perfectly use in court. So, yeah, no, Britain is a little bit calmer when it comes to accepting other women's bodies. You see a lot more different, you see different bodies in the street. I mean, I have been, I love France.

In the south of France, I have to say that women aren't necessarily, any more than I am, they're not stick thin. Because Paris and France, like you were saying, are two different things. Two different things, okay. If you come to Marseille, there's a completely different kind of woman because they live by the beach, because of a million different factors. So I think the aim of the book was to remind people that we're a highly centralized country, but there's activities and people and culture and things happening around the country. And yet when

you look up or you read any of the literature that's been written about French women, it always means Parisienne and nothing else. Well, you're doing your level best, Alice, to put that right. Thank you very much indeed for talking to us, Alice Pfeiffer. Let's hear it for Britain, the country where a woman is free to drink pints and eat loads of chips. Now, later in the week, we're discussing cryptocurrency. You may, and if you haven't heard it, you should, you may have heard of the BBC Sounds podcast, The Missing Crypto Queen. It's all about a mysterious figure, Dr. Ruja Ignatova, who persuaded millions to join her financial revolution. Well, she said it was one. Then she disappeared.

We're going to be discussing the missing crypto queen in all her, well, glory isn't quite the right word, on Thursday's edition of Woman's Hour. It is interesting stuff that if you know nothing about cryptocurrency, we'll tell you all you need to know later on this week on the programme. Now to the new film Judy and Punch. It's a very dark fairy tale, this, directed by Mirror Folks, that turns that familiar, if somewhat sinister, seaside entertainment on its head. Mia Wasikowska plays puppeteer Judy. Damon Herriman is Punch, and they live in the landlocked town of Seaside, a violent, lawless place overrun by witch hunts and hangings. It's all very creepy. And I put it to the director, Mira,

that this was exactly what she wanted my reaction to be. I mean, yes, I think it should be deeply unsettling. I find it really exciting and interesting that people are coming out of the film with very different, diverse reactions and that was the intention when I made the movie. Sit down! The show is about to begin! And Mia when you first saw the script of Judy and Punch what did you make of this? Because you must get sent stuff all the time. Yeah I was just really excited about how original it was. I

remember reading that first speech of Punch's and just being like, I don't know what, is this a language I don't know? Like it was very rhymy, limerick kind of, yeah, I just loved how much creative license there was. You've heard the talk from far and wide of Punch's puppet play. Best in the world, the greatest show is what the critics say. The congregations of St Paul's grow thinner every day. They're coming to the show as shows, not kneeling down depressed. It's set in a place called Seaside, which you're at pains to point out is nowhere near the sea. I couldn't place it in time, but that doesn't matter either because this is, unfortunately, it's a perennial. Domestic abuse is something that's gone on throughout time everywhere in the world. Why did you want to make

Punch and Judy, Judy and Punch in this film, the centre of your film? I started to sort of do a deep dive into the history of Punch and Judy from Commedia dell'arte right through to it being anglicised here in the UK. Sorry, Commedia, but that's the Italian? Yeah, it comes from Italian puppetry, Commedia dell'arte, and then all of those characters were kind of anglicised and Punchinello turned into Punch, and that's the sort of history. And then I was also very curious about what I saw is this strange kind of devolution from quite beautiful marionettes to this very sort of simple hand puppet show that is really quite violent and

deals with this kind of heavy domestic abuse. And I was kind of fascinated that this story is still really popular today and we continue to kind of tell it and show it and treasure it. But I hadn't seen anyone digging into the sort of scarier elements and politics of that. I grew up in Britain and Punch and Judy was a sort of, I didn't think until I saw the film actually I hadn't really questioned it. Now I'm really uneasy about the fact that Punch and Judy was served up to children for apparently forever without anybody asking too many questions. Did you see it Mia as a kid? I don't think I actually saw a Punch and Judy but I definitely had an awareness of it. I thought similarly, I mean, that footage at the end of the movie is from like Bondi Junction, or is that right?

Yeah, it's from Australia. There's the archival footage that plays over the credits of these kids. So it's these children that are watching A Punch and Judy show, and it plays mainly on their faces. And basically in that moment, it's all about the dichotomy that I was interested in, this kind of very strange combination between laughter and fear. We don't know whether we're excited and elated by something or whether it's terrifying. And so I think that's what the film that we made is really sort of setting out to explore. Mia, in your role, you are Judy, who is the brains of Judy and Punch. You're much better at the puppetry than Punch is.

And that really annoys him, doesn't it? Yeah, I think he definitely probably knows that she's the one with the talent. I mean, you see it kind of fall out in his next relationship. Yeah, I think he definitely is probably aware of her gift and is sort of trying to possess it and then take credit for it or something. But you can see she's the one that's really behind the show. We don't want to give too much of the plot away,

but you do emerge victorious, it would be fair to say, although it's not easy, your path through the film. Yes, well, tragedy befalls and then Judy kind of has to, I guess, build herself back up completely from scratch without this family. And yeah, I guess the movie sort of tracks her re-establishing a sense of self and strength and then kind of coming back to teach Punch a lesson. And boy, does he get a lesson. Yes. It's all about the triumph of outsiders

as well isn't it because you and there are always outsiders wherever we live. What would you say about that element of the film? Well that's probably one of my favourite parts of the movie. I mean the speech that Judy gives at the end about today the witch is me and I think you all know it could be you tomorrow.

It really points out how easy it is to sort of stay in the comfort of that mob but you know while could be you tomorrow um it really points out how easy it is to sort of stay in the comfort of that mob um but you know while you are you're you're also sort of living in fear of being the one up on the stand and i just think you can see that all over the world now and and probably always it's certainly true that throughout history clever women have been thought of as very dangerous indeed i mean there's a whole suspicion about judy and that little warning she gets about not you know not not taking her magic tricks too far because it could um you know arouse too much um suspicion all right run along now that's enough oh good day judy Constable. Wonderful show last night.

Wonderful. You really have your way with the puppets. A-way. You really have A-way with the puppets. I'm glad you enjoyed it. Just one word, Judy. You might wish to keep those magic tricks a little on the low down. So convincing they are, they'll be taken for sorcery.

And the last thing I would like to see is a woman such as yourself before the stoners. Seeing some folk in seaside are prone to superstition. More and more by the day it would appear. What do you want people to take away from this? It's more than just questioning the idea of this slightly dodgy puppet show, isn't it? For me, I think it's really fascinating the time we're in where we can re-examine and look at these myths or stories or fables that we hand down throughout generations

and see them from a different perspective. And that doesn't mean that I am trying to be sort of the PC police and saying this shouldn't exist, this has no relevance. But I think it's really interesting when you come back to these traditional stories and just have a look at what it says about us historically and culturally and politically. I did very much want all of those contemporary allegories to come through with the film. So I hope that there's stuff in there that people recognise

as current dilemmas or truths or thematics. Unfortunately, there's a little more in there that I would like that's currently still sort of familiar and recognisable. Mia, I've read that you make what some people regard as quirky choices for your film roles and I guess you could say that Judy and Punch was also another quirky choice. Are you conscious of that?

Is that what you're doing? I don't know. I think it's always sort of funny to see your choices viewed by somebody else and then you're like oh okay I feel like all the choices I've made are like completely obvious um and exactly what everybody else would do if they were in my shoes the films I've seen you in remember Jane Eyre and and Alice in Wonderland which is the ultimate cinematic trip by most people's standards. Could you ever see yourself in the bog standard rom-com,

slightly ditzy, you know, meet a man, all goes a bit pear-shaped, a bit more goes wrong and then it gets happy? Is that not something you'd ever want to do? I'm, like a few years ago, I probably would have been like, I will never do that. But, you know, I'm sure my mother would love me to do something like a little bit more like friendly to, you know, grandmas, especially mine. But I don't know. I would never say never. There's some rom-coms I think are brilliant.

Name a good, name your favourite. Really like One Fine Day. Who's that? It's Michelle Pfeiffer and George Clooney. It's quite an old one and they've got the two little kids and they're really cranky um but it's such a good one yeah so there's some that i think are brilliant but i mean i actually never get offered them so i probably won't no please no i also think they're really hard to make and and make well and often on returning to

look at some of my favourite rom-coms, I'm like, oh, this is a problem. Not sure that I can show that to my niece or, you know. Because we start reassessing things. Yeah. And realise, no, it's not. Yeah, totally. I mean, even found that recently with a movie that I used to love as a teenager.

Is it bad to name them? No, it's fine. Princess Diaries, but it was great i loved it but like then i was watching it with my niece and me and my sister sort of looked at each other and and sort of were like ah i think we should turn this off just because there's a very like external view i mean she's like so cute at the beginning with her big afro and her and her eyebrows and um it just felt a bit strange to me. What a bench she's turned into this. To be straightened and beautified

and you do sort of like look at things differently I think. Yeah, no you do. So let's hear it for Quirk basically. So what's your next project Mira? I don't know actually, maybe a rom-com starring Mia. Starring Mia, yeah. That's the film director Mira Fox

and you also heard from the actress, Mia Wasikowska. And I can recommend that film. It's not for everybody. It's a little bit sinister in places, but it's very challenging. Judy and Punch. It's out November the 22nd. That's this Friday and it's Certificate 15. Now, Lady Glenn Connor is here.

Welcome to the programme. Good morning to you. Hello, good morning. We've just been chatting for the last 10 minutes or so, and we've already determined we will not get through all your anecdotes in the amount of time available. Well, I've got an awful lot, but I'll do our best. We're going to have a very good try. Now, just so people know about you, you grew up in Norfolk on one of the largest estates in England.

Your father was the Earl of Leicester, made of honour at the coronation, Lady-in-Waiting to Princess Margaret, married to the eccentric Colin Tennant who bought Mustique and turned it into a very exclusive party island for the rich and famous. And she's written a memoir called Lady-in-Waiting, My Extraordinary Life in the Shadow of the Crown. You're from the Cook family. That's how I pronounce it, isn't it? Absolutely. Yes. It's spelt Coke, but you pronounce it Cook. Yes, I can't bear these aristocratic confusions. Well, it is always very difficult, I know.

Especially when I go to America, they find that very difficult. Well, I can't say I blame them. The family crest features an ostrich swallowing an iron horseshoe. Yes, because my ancestor was a lawyer, the great, who prosecuted Guy Fawkes. And that meant that he could digest anything, which I imagine he did. They were terrifying judges in those days.

Yes. Black cats. Yes, and that was your, what, great, great, great something? Yes, a long time ago now. Actually, though... Elizabeth, yes, great, great, great something? Oh, great, great, yes. A long time ago now. Actually though... Elizabeth, yes, during the reign of... The Tudors. Exactly, and Queen Elizabeth I. Now, the early part of the book is

devoted to your extraordinary childhood on this country estate in Norfolk. There are some wonderful nuggets here of aristocratic life. I particularly enjoyed the idea of a special beach house for ladies. Ah yes, that's a meal house.

And all my female relations used to go down there and have what they called no stays week. Where they took off their stays and wore something loose. Because the thing was that life at Holcombe was very, very formal. And it was a very male orientated house.

And the women, I think, didn't play a great part compared to the men. And they were always up hosted in their stays. So to go down to the meal house and have no stays week, and they used to wander on the beach must have been absolutely lovely. So you could whip off your corset and what go skinny dipping? Absolutely. Well, I mean, I remember even... I'm quite old, I'm 87 now, but I remember wearing some terrible thing called a roll-on. And it was meant to roll down, but it was always rolling up and getting very uncomfortable.

And one's stockings were sort of... One had suspenders on it. Now, you say it was a male environment. You actually... Your birth was regarded by some as a disappointment because you weren't a boy. Well I know I've got this photograph of at my christening my father's holding me and I've got my grandfather one side my great-grandfather the other they're all looking frightfully gloomy because I was a girl I did my best to be a boy I

weighed 11 pounds nearly killed my. And then this huge girl arrived. But anyway, there was nothing I could do about it. Well, that explains why you didn't inherit the estate, did you? No, nothing. And it went in the end to your... Well, a cousin who'd been brought up in South Africa. My father asked him to come over when he realised he

wasn't going to have a son. And Eddie arrived and actually was charming to my mother and I have two sisters too. You grew up around the royal family to an extent and I think Princess Margaret and then Princess Elizabeth came to play. Yes, because Sandringham was quite near, it's only 10 miles away. My father was an equerry to the Duke of York before he became king.

He was an equerry to him during the time of the abdication, which is very interesting. And so they used to come over to Holcombe and I got a wonderful photograph of us all standing and Princess Margaret sort of looking at my feet. And I remember saying to her once, ma'am, I've just found this photograph. Why are you looking at my feet?

Well, she said, Anne, you've got silver shoes. I was so jealous. I only had brown ones. And the Queen's looking actually as if Princess Margaret's up to no good. But we used to have a wonderful time because I remember Princess Margaret and I used to have little tricycles

and we used to go round and round all the passages at Holcombe. And occasionally the Queen would say, what are you doing? You mustn't do that, you know. But Princess Margaret was the best sort of friend one could possibly have. She's quite naughty. Well, indeed, you were extremely loyal to her.

You're still very loyal to her. Not everybody is very nice about Princess Margaret. I have to say this book is full of stories that show her in a rather positive light. Well, I think that's what I hope to achieve. I'm so sad and cross, really, with all the things that were written about her after she died by people who hadn't even met her. And a lot of the things they said were quite untrue. She was a demanding lady, though.

Well, I didn't find her like that. I mean, she was a wonderful, wonderful friend to me. And if you asked her what she would like to do, you know, and she loved doing very simple things. I mean, she always used to arrive to stay with me in my very small house in Norfolk with our Marigo gloves and I think your car needs cleaning and she'd clean my car.

She always did my fires because she'd been a girl guide and I hadn't. She did struggle with a kettle I think on one occasion. Well she did. I mean the thing was that I used to make breakfast for her and carry it up and she'd ride with her kettle and said I'm going to be completely you just give me the tea and the milk and

I won't be a bother to you. Well I was sort of down in the kitchen and suddenly I heard Anne. And I said, yes, ma'am, what do you want? She said, something the matter with my kettle. It won't work. And of course, she absolutely had no idea. I had to turn it on.

So in the end, I always used to bring her breakfast up myself. There are some lovely stories in the book towards the end of her life, actually, when I suppose her social life had dwindled. And you were still very much a part of it though and you would go and read to her but unfortunately she was keen at the time on some very boring books. There was one about seeds. The most deadly book about

seeds and the trouble was that Roddy had given it to her. This is Roddy Llewellyn. Llewellyn and I remember getting as far as a chapter on potatoes and I said to her, ma'am this is the most boring book I've ever read. I mean, wouldn't you like to choose something else? And she said, not a bit. It's absolutely fascinating. Carry on.

So I carried on. I want to talk about your marriage because Colin Tennant, the man you married, I don't know how to sum him up. Eccentric isn't enough, is it? It's an adjective that simply doesn't do the man justice. Well, he was a man of many parts. He was saved of many different things. He was fascinating, a wonderful storyteller, terrible temper, impossible, really, in lots of ways. Banned from British Airways?

Well, there was a lovely story in British Airways. The point about it is that I was in waiting to Princess Margaret, and when you're in waiting, you can't leave her. And for some reason, Princess Margaret and I were in first class, and Colin and I simply didn't have a seat near us. And so he was taken off down the end of the aeroplane, and suddenly the most ghastly noise. And I thought, oh, Christ, Colin's having a tantrum.

Well, how old was Colin at this point? Oh, I think nearly 60. Carry on. Anyway, what had happened was he just was lying down in the aisle screaming. And so I got up to see him. And Princess Margaret said, no, sit down, Anne. And to my absolute horror, I looked out of the window and there he was being dragged off the airplane

by two huge American cops and shouting, Anne, help, Anne. And I said, ma'am, I must go. And Princess Margaret said, sit down, take absolutely no notice. That's what happened. I sat sit down take absolutely no notice that's what happened I sat down and took absolutely no notice and he arrived back three days later and nothing more was said no it is remarkable just again to put people in the picture here this is a man who would routinely move house every five minutes I don't know how you put up with that um he went through a phase of eating only from paper bags at one point he was eating his own

pants is what he has this trick he had paper pants on and he'd used to say as a sort of eating only from paper bags at one point he was eating his own pants He had this trick he had paper pants on and he used to say as a sort of fun thing I suppose, I didn't think it very funny I'm going to eat my knickers now and he pushed his hand down take the paper knickers out and stuffed them in his mouth

Anyway that was one of his sort of party tricks You stayed with him How long were you married? 54 years. I did have one moment very soon after I married him when I went back to see my mother at Holcombe and I said, Mum, I'm not quite sure whether I can cope. And you see, in those days, she turned to me and she said, you married him, you go straight back.

And I did for another 54 years. This was after, yes, I mean, you're right, that would have been the advice at the time, wouldn't it? Well, I was having Charlie, our eldest son, you know, and I did, I stayed for the children and that's what we did. Was it the right thing to do, do you think?

Well, I think it was probably, yes for me. I mean, you always think the grass is going to be greener somewhere else and quite often it isn't. And there were a great many wonderful things about Colin. I was never bored. No, okay. I should say there is a lot of levity in the book, and there are some wonderful memories, but you've known such sadness. You've had three sons, one of whom had a terrible accident and brilliantly survived it. But you've lost two, Henry and Charles, your eldest child.

Yes, I mean I lost Charlie, the eldest one, because he was a drug addict for a time and then he did recover but I'm afraid his body had been so damaged that he did die in the end. But the most sort of really terrifying

was Henry, my second son, who was married and had a lovely son called Ewan. And I've now got two great-grandchildren by him. But anyway, Henry decided to be gay. And at that time, it was extremely frightening because we didn't know how AIDS was caught. And of course, he then got AIDS. And, you know, one's friends

suddenly wouldn't come and stay. I don't blame them. They had children. And you didn't know how. But Princess Margaret always came. She brought her children. When she saw Henry, she hugged him. And she used to come with me to the Lighthouse, which was a place in London for young men, you know. And she wasn't touchy-feely like the Princess of Wales, but we used to go into their rooms. She'd make them laugh. She'd tell stories. And she made them forget for a moment, you know, how ill they were. But she did a lot of those sort of things, Mrs. Margaret, people didn't really know about.

There isn't an ounce in this book of self-pity, actually, which I think is one of the reasons why people have praised it, because you have known terrible suffering and you just get on with it, don't you? You are you really are a Stoic. Well, I suppose so. I mean, I've got my faith. I'm a Christian and I think that's what Christians do. You know, you're given your hand. In some ways, I always felt that God had felt I was strong enough to cope. I mean, I always thank God it wasn't my second sister who I don't think could have could have coped. She's sadly died now. But yes, I did get it. I was brought up, we were brought up in the war when people always say, what a privileged life you've led Anne. And I say, well, you know, I'm not very privileged during the war. My parents were in Egypt.

I had a governess at one point who was very unkind to me. I, you know, we were hungry at boarding school. Always hungry. Always cold. You know, and I really, I mean, now when people say, you know, what do you do? I say I've never been so happy. I just really enjoy life. You know, when things go right, then you should really, you know, make the most of it. Has the Queen read this book? I'm not sure. Might you give it to her?

I thought I might send her one for Christmas. I think Prince Charles has and the Duchess of Cornwall. Right. But in my book, I'm nothing but, you know, so fond of them all. And I think I've put a very positive light. That is Lady Glenconner and Glenconner. The book is Lady in Waiting. And actually, if the Queen does need cheering up,

and I suspect she might need cheering up right now, I hope she does get Anne's book for Christmas. Because although it isn't all laughter, far from it, in fact, there are some very funny stories in that book, including we didn't have time for the time she went to Russia with a dear friend. And the friend didn't rate Russian cuisine very much. So decided the best way to handle it was to go with an enormous leg of Parma ham. What happened to the Parma ham is in the book, but it's quite funny. Right, to your thoughts on everything else on the programme today. The first conversation we had about the victims of Jeffrey Epstein

and the danger, in fact, that they have been forgotten, or hopefully they won't be forgotten, but they certainly appear to have been lost in the conversational mix over the last couple of days. This listener says, Listening to Madeleine Black on Woman's Hour, the shame is not ours. Absolutely, the shame belongs always to the perpetrators

and to the people who try to shame and blame the victims. From Sarah, thank God, Woman's Hour talking about the victims of abuse. We need to listen to them. And from Catherine, this is on the subject of French women. I've lived in rural France for six years, so I can't speak for French cities. As far as keeping their figures, the French grow their own veg, shop carefully, eat less but better, drink wine regularly but in moderation. Natural raw ingredients are important and foraging is very popular. They also sit at the table for every meal. Food has a very important place in the day. Older people are well looked after and every village has a troisième age group who meet

together and socialise. I suppose, is that like the University of the Third Age or something? I suppose it sounds a good idea anyway. However, says Catherine, French women do not have it all. Out here in the country, it's still a rather male-dominated environment with traditional roles. From Jilly, we've lived in France for 12 years. I haven't seen any glamorous women, much to my husband's disappointment. In fact, I've been flattered by my dress sense by the French where we live. Well done, you. Excellent, Jilly, flying the flag. Amanda, I've just got back from a weekend in Paris. I'm 57 and when younger used to travel to France on business. I always felt so intimidated by the

elegance of French women but on our recent trip my partner and I agreed that the younger generation look exactly like any other women in Europe. Also I'd never seen large groups of French women eating out together. This time there were lots of girls nights out and mixed large groups so much more relaxed and people having more fun. Isn't that interesting? I suppose I hadn't thought about whether large groups of French women would eat out together. Honestly, how long has it been since large groups of British women went out together? I suppose women have always socialised with each other, but I think it's probably relatively recent even here that large groups of women have gone out to eat and drink together.

I don't know. We'll see what people say about that. Martina, fat Irish woman visits Paris, is the headline on her email. I'm now feeling particularly apprehensive about my trip to Paris next February. Or Fabry, as we hope it all will be. As a 58-year-old fat Irish woman, will I have to face a barrage of fat shaming

on the streets of Paris? All one-liner comebacks in French gratefully received. I'm sure, Martina, don't worry about it, for heaven's sake. I very much doubt you'll face anything. Nor should you, by the way, and I hope you have a lovely time when you go. From Jill, I've lived in La France Profonde for 17 years and I think this is like the swinging 60s, which only happened in the King's

Road that's in London the women I see are no more fashionable than British women and there are certainly fat ones unless they eat nothing which I suspect some do yes now that I do agree with I can speak honestly as a woman who has never forgotten to eat unless I'm very poorly which unfortunately for me I haven't ever really been for very long and from Richard my observation as an Englishman is that when you go to France, Italy or Spain the women dress in a manner that looks curiously more sophisticated than their contemporaries in the UK. They don't appear to spend massive amounts on clothes, but seem to have the panache and fit it all together in a better and more fashionable way. British women, unfortunately, don't have the sophisticated approach to fashion.

Sad but true, says Richard, who I'm afraid doesn't include a photograph. So I am not in a position to gauge whether he is sartorially up to snuff. But Richard, if you, could you send us, so I mean, we can't say that about British women without providing us with evidence of your own fashion brilliance, I'm afraid. But anyway, you've been on the Wubbazab podcast, so well done you.

Thank you to everybody who took part. The programme and the pod are back tomorrow. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story, settle in. Available now.