Woman's Hour - Part-time work, sexual violence in conflict, graphic novel No Surrender

Episode Date: November 29, 2022

Today is day two of an international conference held here in the UK to prevent sexual violence in conflict and Emma Barnett will be talking to Lord Ahmad, who’s the Prime Minister’s special Envoy on this issue. It’s ten years since the conference began and Woman’s Hour will be looking at what progress has been made to date as well as hearing the testimony of Lejla Damon who was born after her mother was raped in the Bosnian conflict of the 1990s. Adopted by a British couple, she is now a campaigner raising awareness about rape as a weapon of war and the fallout for victims. 600,000 people in the UK are actively seeking jobs with part-time hours, most of them women – but just twelve percent of jobs advertised in the UK currently offer part-time hours. Those that do are mostly for low paid jobs. That’s according to new research from social enterprise & flexible working experts Timewise. Emma will be speaking to the co-founder of Timewise, Emma Stewart MBE about the impact this is having on both living standards and businesses as well as hearing from one highly successful working mum who’s desperate for more part time work whilst recovering from bone cancer, but has found it impossible to find anything that reflects her impressive skillset. Sisters Sophie and Scarlett Rickard have brought the suffragette story to life in a new graphic novel called No Surrender. Based on the 1911 novel by the real life suffragette Constance Maud, they hope to make it accessible to a modern audience in a time when protest, and modes of protest, are being debated more than ever in the UK. They tell Emma about their creative process, being women in the world of comics, and living with Ehlers-Danlos syndrome.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Lucinda Montefiore

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Today we have a rare voice for you, a remarkable young woman who only relatively recently discovered the extraordinary circumstances she was conceived in, and she found this out when she was just 18. Now she's taking centre stage at a major international conference happening in the UK attended by world leaders and figureheads, including the Ukraine's first lady, Olena Zelenska.

I'll tell you more about that woman, Leila Damon is her name, in just a moment. You will also hear the tale of two Lancashire sisters who have brought the suffragette story to life in a new graphic novel and part-time work as businesses cry out for staff Lancashire sisters who have brought the suffragette story to life in a new graphic novel. And part-time work, as businesses cry out for staff and people, women in particular, need part-time hours. Why aren't the job adverts better matching the reality of the needs of the population? Perhaps that affects you. Do get in touch. Also away from politics with a capital P and also work politics, let's take a moment to talk about another thorny one, but on the domestic front, shall we?

How do you get the guests you actually want for the festive period rather than the guests you think you should have? Perhaps the guest list never changes and you wish it would. Perhaps you've been angling for an invite for years somewhere else. I asked because of a small story today about Sarah Ferguson. It's being reported she's being returned to the royal Christmas fold with the new monarch installed. She's reportedly accompanying her ex-husband, Prince Andrew, having not spent Christmas Eve or Christmas Day with the royals at Sandringham in Norfolk since their divorce in 1992. But what about you in terms of who you're allowed, who you're not having, who's perhaps made it back in. I mean, reports are also saying that Prince Andrew is to lose his police protection,

but he seems, according to this other report, to be getting his ex-wife back together with the family at Christmas. Unwanted guests, all the ones you have to have. How do you handle that time of year? Perhaps you have no say over it as you're always the guest. You're not the one trying to organise. I'm always the host. We're actually having two more of the family this year, which I think is going to make it even better. So I'm very happy about that. But it is a cast list that often stays the same for years and years. How do you feel about yours? Do get in touch this morning. You can text me here at Woman's Hour on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate.

On social media, it's at BBC Woman's Hour or email us through our website. It'd be lovely to actually hear your voices on air. You can do that through a voice note on a different number through WhatsApp. [phone]. We've made use of that technology quite recently and we'd like to do even more so on the programme. But also you can leave your telephone number and we will call you if you would like to have your say on this. I suppose any advice you've got is always welcome, but if you're in need of advice, listen up too. It's all to come. How do you get the guests you want this festive period, whatever that looks like for you. Now, today is day two of a major international conference being held here in the UK, all about preventing, or at least trying to prevent, sexual violence in conflicts.

The summit, you may recall, was set up 10 years ago by the then Foreign Secretary William Hague in partnership with the actor Angelina Jolie, who's a UN special envoy for refugees. The First Lady of Ukraine, Olena Zelenska, spoke yesterday, as she also visited Downing Street, about footage she says the Ukrainian authorities have captured of Russian soldiers bragging about raping Ukrainian women. One of the key speakers today is the Prime Minister's, Rishi Sunak's, Special Representative for Preventing Sexual Violence in Confl conflict, Lord Ahmad. He's also a minister in the Foreign and Commonwealth Development Office. And I spoke to him just before coming on air, an interview you'll

hear shortly. But I began by talking to a remarkable, as I say, young woman called Leila Damon. She was born in 1992 after her birth mother, a Bosnian Muslim woman, was held in a concentration camp and raped. Leila was rejected by her birth mother, smuggled out of the country by two British journalists covering the conflict and subsequently adopted and brought up here in the UK. She is now a campaigner on preventing sexual violence in war zones and I began by asking her for her reaction when she first learned of the circumstances of her conception. My reaction was one of shock for sure. And I think my parents were, you know, doing their best to be really supportive. But also, it is a really difficult thing to hear. And also, it takes time to process something like that, I think. And the initial

reaction shock, and then you kind of go away and try and do a bit more for figuring out yourself or processing but ultimately I think that there was a level of anger that of you know kind of what happened to my birth mum and you know how she had been treated and you know the experience that she'd had was very reflective of kind of some of the interviews that she had given to my reflective of kind of some of the interviews that she'd given to my parents and things like that. And that was really hard, because ultimately, you know, being a child born out of conflict related sexual violence is, is hard, it is rejection. But also, it was like, okay, how do I then kind of explain this to other people? You

know, if they ask, what do I say oh what what do you say I think I have to in some ways I have to really be quite sensitive in some ways to them a little bit because most people will ask you know where do you come from or where were you born or you know your name's Leila and it's spelled slightly differently with a j and things like that and I have to just say you know know, just to let you know, I was born in Bosnia during the war. And then if they kind of want more kind of questions and so on, I'm happy to talk about it.

But it's ultimately something that, you know, the reaction that you're going to get back is kind of one of shock, especially if it's just in very casual conversation. You also learned about when you were born, your birth mother's reaction as well, which was very visceral. Yeah, yeah. What did she say? She said in the video, so in the interview that my parents did with her,

you know, she did say that I would turn out like the men that had raped her, that she couldn't hold me. And if she would, then she would want to strangle me. And these are extreme feelings that I think are really reflective of what she has experienced, what she had experienced. And ultimately, in some ways, you could say from that interview, what the you know, what these people had tried to do, what these people had done to her, really, in some ways did succeed, because they kind of, you know, broke that mother-child bond, and she just like completely rejected me. But ultimately, I think, you know, her actions later on, in terms of, you know, her actions of giving me up for adoption to my parents

and also you know the fact that we have a relationship now is is totally you know totally the opposite of what they ever tried to achieve and I think it's brought us both a level of peace that we weren't expecting so when when did you meet her and how was that? Yeah, so I met her five years ago. So when I was 24 and it was it was a really anxiety provoking time, I think, for everyone in the room. So my parents were there and then I met her and her family. Some of her family were in the room. And then also Ina was in the room because she was translating and because we don't speak the same language and I do remember being like the last person

through the doorway everyone else had kind of given each other hugs and greeted each other and so on and and it was it was so so kind of worrying because ultimately what I'm thinking is is this going to bring back all these horrible memories is she going to you know react like am I going to bring up stuff for her that is too painful um and likewise I'm sure that there was anxiety on her side as well um as to you know who I am and what I'm about and and what does this mean for our relationship going forward? Is this a one time meeting or is this, you know, a longer term and actual building a friendship and a relationship together? So there was a lot of pressure on that meeting, but ultimately it was it was very heartwarming.

And it does just show like that meeting to show the power and the strength of the women in the room it was really moving um and it was just really incredible um uh to be to be there and to have that experience but I do feel like for a long time that was something that um I'd always been worried about and it was like I couldn't believe that I'd overcome it, you know. I can't even begin to imagine. But I did see an interview with your mum where she, talking about that meeting, said of your birth mother that she had started to try to apologise or to say, you know, something along those lines. And your mother said, no, no, no, you mustn't do that.

Yeah. No, and she did because previously to the meeting we had spoken by letter and um i'd got uh so basically i'd write a letter in english get it translated into bosnian and then send both um and we'd communicated like that for the best part of about two years um and a lot in in the time there was a lot of guilt like coming through in the letters and you know I'm so sorry for what I've done or you know I'm sorry for the you know and and it was just one of them where it's like you you genuinely don't need to apologize you've got nothing to apologize for um but I do think there's just a lot of guilt that she was feeling and what

I'm kind of where I'm at now and where we are at now in our relationship I don't think that's still there in the same way it was previously so it's been a very healing uh process for you both yeah a hundred percent I really do believe so I'm unsure of this but it one of the big questions of this conference uh which continues to be a big question you know not just that women often don't come forward to report for for all feelings of of some we've explored you know shame sorrow pain but the idea of being able to to to get justice to bring these individuals to to a court is incredibly difficult when a war is on. Yeah.

And I think from, and I have spoken to her about the, you know, would you want to go to court? Would you want to try and, you know, seek justice that way in that kind of mechanism? And she ultimately wants to get on with her life. Do you know what I mean? She doesn't want to do all of that again so so Leila knowing that if I can what do you think and what do you want from this conference

today and that you know with the attention that it's receiving from world leaders and also with what we know and what we hear is going on in Ukraine right now. Yeah, I think my ultimate goal from the conference and the outputs of the conference is, you know, I think this conference we're listening to a lot more of firsthand survivor, you know, kind of testimonies and stories. And they all look different. Right. So some want to seek justice in other ways. Others, survivors want to move on, but they do want to speak about it. And I think there's no one size fits all in the practicality of, you know, what does justice look like? What does accountability look like? But they do want to be recognised. And I do think we do need to even the survivors that don't want to speak out, we do need to somehow let their voices be heard through, you know, kind of platforms like this and, you know, NGOs and charities and so on.

But the action that we want, they want to see action and we definitely want to see action beyond this and keeping it on the agenda, especially with things going on in Ukraine, like these things are happening. And it's how do we better deal with them in Ukraine and, you know, potentially other wars to come and better make sure that the survivors are heard. And also then action is delivered beyond that. But also, you know, it's one of them where it doesn't look the same for every person. So we just need to make sure that we're remembering that throughout, throughout the kind of process that people want different things. Leila, just a final question. Your parents were working as journalists and adopted you. That in itself is an incredible part of this story, isn't it?

I just wanted to pay tribute and make sure we'd said that. Yeah, I mean, my parents are unbelievable. I think having them being in Bosnia at the time, but also specifically, you know, all the work that they've done in other regions has really helped in terms of, you know, being able to inform and support me doing activism. But also really, they've really shaped, you know, kind of who I am and the way I think and also how to behave within these situations. And fundamentally, they thought, my dad especially, being a journalist and my mum being his camera woman, you know, they want the people's stories to be heard in the right way. And I strongly believe that.

And it's one of them that without them, I definitely wouldn't be the person that I am today. So I'm incredibly grateful to them and they definitely know that. Well, I just wanted to make sure we'd made that connection and put the spotlight also in that direction. Leila, lovely to talk to you. Thank you for making the time. Oh, pleasure. Thank you so much. Leila Damon there. Well, the Prime Minister's Special Representative for Preventing Sexual Violence in Conflict, Lord Ahmed, the Minister, has also joined me today to talk about the conference

that's on its second day. It began yesterday, 10 years on from William Hague, the then Foreign Secretary, and Angelina Jolie, a Special Representative and Envoy for the United Nations, beginning this focus for this country and also convening leaders from around the world. We spoke about the cuts to international aid by this government, first started with Rishi Sunak as Chancellor and now as Prime Minister, and we also reflected on Leila's testimony. I should say, some of our interview does contain descriptions of sexual violence. Leila's story that we've just heard is incredibly powerful.

She also makes the very valid point that we mustn't forget that each story will be different. And I know you will have been listening to and prioritising survivors' stories in the last 24 hours as you go into the second day of this conference. But we also know, and we are hearing reports, that the same is happening right now in Ukraine, and as reports put it, by Russian soldiers. Why is this still happening?

Preventing sexual violence in conflict is a reality. We have 18 conflicts. Yes, there's Ukraine, but there's other conflicts. Tigray is another one. There are others where one would not define it as a war, such as places such as Afghanistan. Yet the issue of sexual violence continues to be something that many people, often women, young girls, but also men and boys have to endure. And it's the worst kind of crime against an individual. From the testimonies over the years

that I've led on this agenda, that we get firsthand, we've both shaped our policy and programming. But importantly, is also ensuring that this stays high up our own agenda and as this conference is doing, the international agenda. So that's the first pillar, as I would put it. The second element is the practical support we can give. And during the course of the conference and the lead up, certainly leading up to the conference this year and before. There are various measures we've put in place which are reflective of survivor testimony, but importantly also survivor advice and the way they've worked with us directly. We have two survivors who have been working on this programme since we first launched in 2014, who became formal advisors to me as the prime minister's representative in 2019.

And they've directly informed our policy and programming. So for example, we've rolled out together with survivors again, you will know Nadia Murad, an incredible young woman who endured the worst kind of sexual violence through the atrocities that Daesh committed in Iraq. And she's led the way and working with her directly, we were able to launch the Murad Initiative back in April this year at the UN Security Council. I was there. We launched in conjunction with Nadia.

And that is based on specific feedback from survivors, putting into the context of your question in Ukraine. The lessons of the past have been learned in that we're working proactively on the ground right now through funding, support, technical support. We're working with the International Criminal Court. The prosecutor, Karim Khan, was here yesterday. We're providing legal support directly to the prosecutor general to ensure then using elements such as the Marath Code to collect the testimony, ensure it's protected and sustained in a manner which will allow for successful prosecutions.

Because we all remember the Bosnia conflict, and we were just reflecting on that with Leila's testimony as well. Some women have had to wait a quarter of a century to get justice, and that is just frankly unacceptable. There's the abhorrent crimes they have to endure, and then they have to endure this pain as perpetrators run free. If we even know about the abuse in the first place, which is also a big part of it, what you've outlined there is incredibly important work and ambition for the policies that you're talking about, especially around justice and seeking to prosecute offenders. But I was just going back to the words from the First Lady of Ukraine, just from yesterday, she's here as part of this conference, Olena Zelenska, who talked about what's going on in terms of sexual violence

in the Ukrainian, in the war in Ukraine, saying it's another instrument, sexual violence, that they're using as their weaponry. It's another weapon in their arsenal. That's why they're using it systematically and openly. The Russian soldiers, she's talking about, are very open about this. We see Russian servicemen are talking about it over the phone with their relatives from phone conversations we've managed to capture. In fact, the wives, she claims, of Russian servicemen encourage this. She claims they say, go on, rape those Ukrainian women. Just don't share this with me. Just don't tell me. This is why there has to be a global response to this. That is what the first lady of Ukraine has said. And what I wanted to ask was slightly

different. So rather than our response to when it has happened, is there nothing we can do to try and stop this in the first place being used as a weapon of war? And when we hear it's being used systematically like that, some people may think, yeah, I just didn't know that could be or would be or is part of warfare? Well, first of all, I agree with her. I was sitting right next to the First Lady when she made her comments. It's shocking the fact that there are these allegations, live conversations that she reflected on, on wives from Russia telling their husbands, go ahead and just don't tell us about it because we don't want to know. It's shocking. I mean, there's no other word for it and worse still. And that's why the important element within our initiative is not just looking at conflict related sexual violence is the word preventing sexual violence in conflict.

And I think you're quite right. That comes from ensuring that there are when we see the starts of conflict, that we intervene earlier earlier as we're doing now in Ukraine but undoubtedly the issues of sexual violence are still very much real it is how do you stop how do you stop soldiers doing that I mean just I know you're talking about intervening and giving military support can you well thing is I mean you have to It starts right at the start. I mean, it's the very foundations of society, isn't it? What, you know, how can you prevent someone, the perverseness of this? And perhaps I can make it. I mean, recently, for example, with Her Royal Highness, I was in the DRC and Dr.

McWagey, who's an incredible Nobel laureate. Again, we work with him and perhaps I can reflect on his work in a moment. But I met and there was loads of victims there, but you know what, there was one young girl who was brought and her screams that she was four years old. She had been raped multiple times by a man. I mean, what is the kind of perversion in the brain that allows someone to inflict that kind of abhorrent abuse on a young, innocent girl. So the work is cut out for us. We need to really get into the grips of the fundamentals of how society is founded. The fact is, and that's why I started, there's an ethical and moral

responsibility on all of us to ensure that as we look to support countries, particularly those who are fragile, we look to support countries, particularly those who are fragile, we look to these early indications where we see discrimination, where we see real persecution and suppression of rights of girls and women. We need to intervene early. Over the years, it's right we've invested in issues of girls' education to empower them. But the next power is about empowerment of women as well. I used to say with the former Prime Minister Boris Johnson, whose mantra was about girls' education, that

the next important element to that is ensuring empowerment. So this is going to be a generational shift and change. But also, countries need... But empowerment can't stop, if I may, empowerment can't stop what you just described rightly as perversion. You know, what I'm trying to talk about here is, you know, do you understand? And I should say, Russia has denied many, many of these sorts of allegations. We haven't got a representative in that respect, but I'm just going to reflect that. But from what we're hearing and the testimony and alone, as Zelensky says, footage has been captured. But is it your understanding that, just to go back to the war in Ukraine, that this is part of a systemic action by the military, by Russian soldiers, or is this freelancing by individual soldiers?

Because there is also a difference there. It's very hard for the British government or any government to try and intervene if a soldier in the atmosphere, the lawlessness of a war environment does what he wants. But there's a very different thing if it's a strategy by a country and it's military. And I think that kind of thing is difficult to say, was there a planned strategy by any sort of trained army to do so? And my immediate response to would be that, no, I would hope not for any established army to do so and my immediate response to would be that no I would hope not for any established army to have that. But she's saying it's systematic. No and that's the second

part of it however the reality is in conflict in war this happens it's a reality and it's not just in Ukraine it's happening as I said in at least defined 18 odd conflicts around the world today you've asked me about how we can prevent it. Of course, we need to ensure there's a moral obligation and responsibility on all trained armed forces, and we're investing in that. We need more women in the front line. And just on the issue of skilled and what I was talking about, empowerment of women, we need women at the heart of building society. So when we talk about conflict resolution, still, unfortunately, regrettably and tragically, women are missing from the table. They are sort of

a second thought still in the world of 2022. When we look at conflicts such as Syria, we look at conflicts currently which are raging elsewhere in the world. The fact is that we need, and the United Kingdom's part of that alliance, to ensure that women are there in the front line when it comes to armed forces, that those views are reflected. We're investing through an initiative with the Canadians called the Alisa Initiative, which trains women in the front line, armed force personnel. We're also engaging very effectively with the UN on ensuring there is training for mediators, peacekeepers who go in at time of mediation. But it's a long, long road. And on your point on prevention, I absolutely agree with you. But we have to get into the

early mindsets when it comes to any army around the world. I would hope every government, responsible government, will take the attitude they need to train their military to say how abhorrent this is and meet a survivor. And that's why survivors are so important to this, that we take their testimonies, we take their insights, and in our programme and policy, we ensure that in everything we're doing, whether it's in conflict prevention or indeed, tragically, when conflict occurs, we're putting their rights right at the heart of what we do. You just talked about investment in various ways. When is this government restoring 0.7% of our commitment?

It was slashed to 0.5% of national income, the foreign aid, the international aid budget. I hope as soon as is practical. And I think the Prime Minister has articulated that. But I think linked to that... When is that? Well, we've talked about how the economic conditions and what we currently face,

and the Prime Minister has been clear that as soon as that is restored, we'll be looking to see how we can restore the 0.7. And I'm a great believer in it. But to the budget we work on if I may we've all also sought to protect the important issue of both humanitarian support but for me on this agenda protecting the investment we make in the rights of women and girls and this is part and parcel of the agenda. Is it protected though? That's what's being questioned sorry if I may that's what's being questioned there's a there's may, that's what's being questioned. There's a precedent, there's a concern that Rishi Sunak,

the Chancellor first and now the Prime Minister, a precedent has been set for letting the Home Office and other domestic departments even use some of the reduced money. I've got the analysis in front of me that is being ring-fenced for this purpose. There's a concern it's actually being used in the UK. Well, it's being used for those people that we've provided support for, for most recent conflicts, such as Ukraine and Afghanistan. But equally, in terms of protecting budgets, what we have

announced, there's been 12.5 million new funding announced for this initiative at this conference, which includes direct support to survivors. I mentioned Dr. McQuaigie's fund, which we've been funding since its inception. This is a global survivors fund for victims of sexual violence that provides support to them as the wheels of justice take time and ensures that particularly young girls and women start rebuilding their lives. We're giving an additional £5 million to that.

I hear what you're saying. I'm also just going off what people in your own government are saying. Andrew Mitchell, a development minister, only this weekend said, when David Cameron was in government, we were definitely a development superpower. Today, let's be frank, we are not a development superpower. We need to win that back. It's impossible to deny that Britain's reputation during recent years internationally has declined,

talking specifically about the cut to foreign aid. Well, I think, first of all, Andrew's got long experience and obviously he was development secretary. He's a colleague of mine at the Foreign Commonwealth and Development Office. And I agreed we need, in terms of what we do on the development agenda, we need to support both through financing, but also program and other initiatives that we have and our diplomacy is important in this you know i've been a minister of state at the foreign office now for five and a half years and one thing i can reflect on is the experience of dealing with international partners and on this initiative amongst others that i lead on i can assure you

that we have sound standing when it comes to the support we offer in conflict and of course I like Andrew want the 0.7 restored as soon as possible but at the same time we work to what we have but we're working also to ensure that the important parts of our programming including our support for conflict related sexual violence but on the prevention the support to survivors is central to our financing on this project we can be proud yes of the work we've done around the world in terms of our development support and i hope in in the coming years we can return to 0.7 but at the same time we do and are respected internationally and i know so because i can speak from experience to that lord armand

and you can also catch back up if you missed it. But our interview with Leila Damon just to start the programme today, who's one of the key speakers and key voices today of those linked to and part of the surviving of sexual violence in conflict. The second day of that international conference, 10 years on from when it began here in the UK with William Hague and Angelina Jolie. Thank you to them for speaking to us. And thank you to you because your messages have been coming in, linked to those interviews, but also to what I asked you right at the start of the beginning, away from politics, I suppose, with a capital P,

but the politics more on the domestic front, as we've heard in a report today that Sarah Ferguson is returning to the Royal Christmas Fold this year, having not spent Christmas Eve or Christmas Day with that particular family since her divorce to Prince Andrew about 30 years and years ago, since her divorce, excuse me, in 1992. I've been asking about whether you have control over the guest list and how do you get who you want around the various festive tables you may be taking part in. And you have not disappointed. There's a brilliant message here that is very succinct.

It just comes in saying, I've spent 32 of the last 33 Christmases with my in-laws in one way or another, and I've dreaded it every year. Please do not use my name. We will not. That is always an option. Oh, sorry to hear that, but it will provide some tonic and perhaps relief to others who feel the same. Another one. These days, the usual problem is finding a way to involve the separated parents and grandparents of your immediate family. In our case, 15 different households have to be considered. Inevitably, some level of rotation has to occur, says Daniel, who's listening in Swindon. Good morning to you. Jane's written in to say, I moved out of the marital home with three children on December the 27th, 1992. There you go again, that year. My now ex-husband and friends helped me move and started the night since we'd all had a drink when we were in. And we've spent pretty

much every Christmas together since with my second husband since 95 and various of my ex-husband's partners over the years occasionally it's tricky but nothing we can't manage our children are more than capable of putting us back in our boxes if they ever thought we needed it because of our children we've managed to remember why we married one another now neither of us regrets divorcing but it has meant that we have done weddings christenings and other family events as well as local parties, happily. A lot of these messages about how you've managed this coming in. Another one here, someone, no name on this,

but very happy but also mixed emotions about not being the host for a change. I am also the host, probably for about the last 10, 15 years now. This sounds bliss. Having the first Christmas away for 40 years, having always done Christmas as a result of one daughter and family deciding to go elsewhere, I've been invited to my son's house to share pre-Christmas and Christmas Day with him, his lovely wife and children. I'm so thrilled, but I'm totally bamboozled

by the thought of not doing it all here at home. Driving back on Boxing Day to cook a belated Christmas meal for two daughters and their families, have to have cold turkey for after Christmas. Such mixed emotions. I can't believe you're going back and actually doing all of that. I think you should use this moment. And one more. Anne says, we've got to go to mothers. So I varied the Christmas offerings. I made it clear that they and any partners, this is, as I say, from and on email would always be absolutely welcome, but equally there was no obligation for them to show up. So sometimes we rented a cottage by the sea. Sometimes we didn't. And as soon as they were all settled with partners, I took myself

off abroad for a couple of years. So they were thrown up on their own devices for two Christmases. When I came back, I did one more big family Christmas and then I started going to them. And one year, when I and one son were both newly single, we decided to avoid Christmas altogether and went to Morocco for a week. I love it. Mix it up. We don't hear many people mixing it up that much. Very smart. And thank you for that message.

Keep them coming in, please. 84844 or on social media at BBC Women's Hour or you can email us. Now some of you already messaged in about our next discussion to do with part-time work because I wanted to ask you if you're finding it difficult to get a decent job because you can only work part-time hours it's not a preference it's what you actually need. Research out today by Timewise the social enterprise and flexible working experts showed there are around 620,000 people in the UK currently looking for part-time work. The majority, 60%, women.

Yet analysis of 6 million job adverts posted in the UK this year shows just 12%, 12% offered part-time hours and most of those were for low-paid roles. We're just joining me now in the studio co-founder of TimeWise, Emma Stewart, who also heads up the government's independent task force on flexible working. And also in a moment, I'll be speaking to Charlene Manhurts, who's been looking very keenly for part-time work as the main earner in her house. But to start with you, Emma, good morning. Good morning. On one hand, we've got a lot of people, you know, thousands of people looking for part-time work. And on the other, we've got record numbers of unfilled full-time job vacancies. What's going on? Firstly, can I just say I'm on the task force. I don't head it up. You're on the task force. We promoted you. We like to do that. Sorry, but there you go.

But you are looking at this from a government level, but also from your research. Exactly. And I mean, what's going on is we think three things with businesses, because we, for the first year, as well as looking at vacancies, have asked businesses why they don't advertise jobs as part time from day one. And sadly, a lot of it is inertia. They think candidates, job seekers will ask. But we know from our research that actually women in particular don't because they don't want to risk not getting the job. We also know that many businesses want to meet people before they will consider offering flexible working. But the risk in the tight labour market that we've got at the moment is you're not even going to get to see somebody in an interview unless you say so. And that's the message we are putting out to businesses, which is just try, put a message on your job ad to say that you're open to flexible working.

And also support your managers, which is the third reason, to know how to have that conversation. Because if someone says, I'd like to do three days, not five, that means you've got to redesign the job. What is part-time again? How do we define it? Anything less than, in theory, full-time, which is 37 hours a week, could be considered part-time. So four- day weeks. We're hearing a lot about four day weeks at the moment which I'll come on to but that's the definition from that point of view. There is a difference between which I tried to stress in in our introduction to this discussion wanting to work part-time and needing to work part-time isn't there? There is and we know that

there are millions of people in the UK who need to work part time because they've got caring responsibilities. It affects women in particular, as we know, but also people who have health issues, people who are older, people who have disabilities. And the risk is we've seen about half a million people leave the labour market in the last couple of years as a result of the pandemic for health reasons and because they are older they could be really tempted back if we could create better quality part-time jobs for them to be able to apply for. Jessica which seems rare from what you've just said has emailed to say hi Emma I work part-time and this is my third part-time post which was advertised as a full-time vacancy if I see a post that appeals to me I ring up and I ask if they would consider part-time or job share. This way I gauge whether I like the sound of the employer and the role and I also come across confidently and impress the employer

this way. I found employers always willing to consider part-time as they want to employ me. And I think that's absolutely fantastic and I think she's doing exactly the right thing but there are an awful lot of people who still don't feel for lots of reasons that they have either the confidence or the leverage to be able to ask. And we know that lots of employers don't advertise salaries at the moment. If you're not advertising a salary and you're not talking about flexibility, then you've got to be bold in making the request to consider it. And it's just another barrier that, to be honest, shouldn't necessarily be the responsibility of the job seeker. It actually, if an employer... That's what you're talking about. The irony is that a lot of these employers, exactly, the irony is a lot of these employers are absolutely open

to having that conversation, but unless they advertise it and put that out there, they are going to miss out on a lot of candidates who will still feel nervous about bringing it up. Charlene, good morning. Good morning. Let me bring you into this. Your circumstances, I understand, you run your own business offering career coaching to help clients,

but you need to find part-time work around that. Yes, I run a marketing and coaching consultancy and I work in a venture I work alongside a business partner and together we provide those services now in between contracts there's often times where you know you've either got late paying clients or slow paying clients and you're just in between contracts I wanted something that would enable me to have stability, to be able to look after my family when those times hit. Because you do have caring duties and I understand also you're in recovery yourself health-wise. Yes, I had multiple myeloma.

I was diagnosed in 2017 and I was at the time in a full-time job when I found out I literally left work and came back again working for myself. So following that, I've been running my business. I run it in a way so that I can manage my health. And so in order to have financial stability, I need another part-time. I need a part-time role that will enable me to run my business, look after my family and more and as well which is equally important look after myself. And the stress on

you financially at the moment because I understand how is it going the search at the moment? Oh no I found a job now and you know I have been looking since June and you know I look at my CV and I think oh actually I've done quite a lot I'm quite proud of what I've done and I'm thinking hang on a minute why can't I find a role that can suit this I've got great experience and you know I run my own business yeah use affiliates to who work on a number of different ways of working different working patterns and it works well for me as a small business if I can do it as a small business, why aren't larger businesses looking at how they can change working operations

to suit the labour market as it is right now? And I mean, with the role that you found, it's great that you've got some good news, but how does that work? How many hours are you doing? How does it fit around? I think it's helpful for people to hear. Yeah, no, that's fine.

It's up to 16 hours a week and i can do the hours whenever i want so if i want to um look after my children or go and do something related to my own business during the day or at the weekends i just fit it around when i've got time and that's been working really well i mean obviously i, I've only just started the job. I got it last week, so I'm really excited to start. Thank you. Big local, SW11, at the Alliance, they're very, very welcoming and really looking forward to working with them. And they've just been really open from the start, because in the job interview, I did allude to the fact that I have health health issues and they were fine with that. I think as Emma was saying it's very difficult when you're looking for a role and you might be time pressured you might be financially pressured to then have the confidence to ask can you change the role for me and I think if employers are better able to present opportunities with that up front then people will feel comfortable in asking. What was it like, though, in terms of trying to find this role? How was the effect on you financially, the stress, the actual search for it?

Because a lot of people getting in touch about how hard it is. It's really hard. It's really hard because you keep putting your CV out there, talking to people. I got quite a lot of emails actually asking, oh yes, we've got this role, it really looks like it would suit your skills. When I asked, oh and you do realise I'm working, I would like a part-time role, I didn't even get any response back to say, no that's fine, we'll look for something else. Most recruiters were not really interested in supporting different ways of working. So as Emma's saying, it's really crucial that employers are having those discussions with recruiters

so that they understand that actually by being upfront about the possibilities of flexible working, which is not just about remote working from home and working, you know, in the office. It's about what do people's lives look like what um you know health conditions do they have what family circumstances do they have that could impact on how they work it's not that they don't want to work it's not that they're saying we can only work part-time maybe you know in five years time it might be different for them but i really do think employers need to look at what does the workforce need right now what would you say emma to bring to bring you back, and Charlene, thank you for that, to perhaps those smaller businesses and those business owners who are listening,

thinking, you know, I can't make this work. There are financial implications for me. There are some roles that are just not part-time. So I'd say a few things. I'd say there is significant return on investment. If you do think about part-time, you'll have more people applying applying for the job you will have more loyal people when you recruit them they will stay with you for longer and actually we know from a lot of the analysis we've done the return on investment in terms of reduced sickness absence you've got happier healthy people so there's

absolute long-term gain in terms of of the short term I mean we are heading into uh we are in recession uh that we often get lots of small businesses come to us and in fact use our job site because sometimes they can't always afford five days a week so actually three days a week is fantastic you can have a really really brilliant skilled woman or man who wants like Charlene just to be able to fit work around life and health and everything else and will give you absolutely the utmost for that time. And it's not necessarily going to cost you five days. So it's about being creative.

And also it's about, if you advertise this, having the conversation with the person who's sitting opposite in the interview because often they're the best person to be able to explain to you how they can make it work as well. A message here, I mean, you tell me from one of our listeners saying, I take issue with your definition of part-time being anything less than 37 hours per week the any government website requires your employment details class is 30 hours per week as full-time i'm just trying to delineate here what the message is saying are you clear on that are we quibbling over i don't know seven hours i don't know what

what's the limit so just as if people are going to ask. No, absolutely. So at the moment, the official definition of full-time is somewhere between 35 and 37 hours. Part-time can be anything less than what an employer is classing as full-time. And so that would be a range belief that. And it can be as little as eight hours a week or it could be up to 32 hours a week. I think the point is we can spend a lot of time worrying about the definitions. What we really need to think about is how you can design the role and the tasks you need to do to be done in less hours. And we often don't make that equation when we're advertising or thinking about hiring people into roles. A government spokesperson from the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, when we put this and your research student sent this statement

saying the government's committed to supporting individuals and businesses to working flexibly, ensuring employees can better balance work and home life with more input into when, where and how they work. That's why we're backing the Employment Relations Bill, giving employees across the country better access to flexible working. And we've also recently consulted on making the right to request flexible working on day one a right for all employees. Do you know how that's going or where that's up to?

So on the Employment Relations Bill, we know it's going through into I think its third reading, which is really positive. And it would be great if that goes through. In terms of the consultation, we know that there is renewed interest from government, which is great to see. And we are hoping that we will get to a place where it's not just that you have to wait for 26 weeks to ask, but you can ask from day one. But critically, there is also a duty on employers to consider and to say so, because the risk is if it's just about individuals being able to ask from day one, then an employer could still find a reason to say no. And very, very briefly, just while I have you, another news story that's out today, more than 100 UK companies and organisations have become permanently accredited four-day working week employers since the pandemic. This is in part, it seems, to meet demands for salary increases to match soaring inflation. So as a quid pro quo in that respect, what do you make of that? Is that progress?

I think the four-day week is a really good thing to consider. I think there's still quite a lot of analysis we need to do to understand because it's very recent, how it's going to work out over time. What I would say is, yes, the four-day week is a great idea,

but we've had part-time working for decades. We've not got that right yet. Can we just start to think about how we can unlock better quality jobs to part-time working first, because that will affect the lives of millions of people. And I think that's really important not to forget. Emma Stewart, co-founder of Timewise, thank you. And Charlene Manhurtz, continued good luck in the new role. Thank you for talking to us today. And your message is, well, there's one here saying, be bold. It's hard, but the right opportunity will be out there on this subject, Steph who was returning she says it's back

to work after a career gap to do something new and have two kids I found it really hard to find part-time roles but I cold emailed a company I knew needed the sort of job I did sales and marketing and from the offset I could only do part-time due to children and caring according to my boss my email was the clincher. It was personal. It highlighted the benefit of only employing me part time, lower risk and cost for a new role. And I'm six months in and really delighted with the job as they are with me. So there you go.

Some encouragement coming through on the messages from those who are also experiencing a bit of success on this front. But it's not like that across the board. And we wanted to make sure we highlighted that this morning. Now to the Lancashire sisters, who have brought the suffragette story to life in a new way, a graphic novel called No Surrender. Based on the 1911 novel by the real-life suffragette, Constance Maud, Sophie and Scarlett Rickard,

hope to make it accessible to a modern audience in a time when protest and modes of protest are being debated more than ever yes how we actually protest of course with some of the recent protests like just stop oil or insulate britain uh tactics have been debated so it's uh it's very ripe for discussion sophie and scarlet ricard good morning hello morning lovely to have you both here sophie i'll start with you you. You're the writer, I believe, and Scarlett the illustrator. Why did you choose to adapt No Surrender, first of all, Sophie? years ago we adapted the ragged trousered philanthropists by robert trestle for graphic novel and the we did no surrender for similar reasons to that which is that they are books written in the edwardian era by someone with boots on the ground so they're very authentic

um but they're also telling a story that isn't really so much heard now and deserves a wider audience. An Edwardian novel isn't probably something that a lot of people are that keen to dive into in this day and age. So the opportunity to translate that into narrative storytelling using pictures seems ideal. And for those who aren't familiar with it, the story, or could you give a brief introduction? Yes, of course.

No Surrender is a fictional made-up story, but it is written by someone who was there, and a lot of the action in the story is loosely based on real-life events, but she very much jumbled them all up into a different order. And so it tells a very authentic story of the struggle for women's rights with some really engaging characters. We have a young girl who works as a weaver in a mill, who gets to know the niece of the owner of that mill, and they set off to London together with other women to fight the patriarchy and one of the strengths of No Surrender is it that it has this huge cast of every kind of woman you can

imagine um so it's a very inclusive story. Well let me bring uh Scarlett into this your sister your idea all your fault um but the the illustration falls to you how do you i mean i've obviously seen this but to try and describe it how do you create a graphic novel what's the process well um with a lot of a lot of laughs between us um but yeah we we start off um sophie writes a script like a um like a screenplay really um and then we work work together where I draw it on paper just marking out the panels and things and getting everything in the right sort of order and once we've done that once we've got a rough then I start at the beginning with page one and so every day I will try and sketch out and draw and colour and do the lettering

for a page and then I send it to Sophie in the evening because we live 200 miles apart so we're not together right and then we have a chat about it so it's very collaborative and I understand some of the inspiration comes for the characters and how they look comes from all sorts of places because you depict many scenes, you know, 300 pages packed with lots of historical detail, but also the famous Women's Sunday March. Lots of different faces. Where do you get the inspiration, Scarlett? Oh, from everywhere. I mean, there's people all over the place when you look. You can't get away from them. And you're just taking their faces into history i suppose yeah yes i suppose so i mean i i've got a photographic memory so i tend to absorb stuff that i see around and and regurgitate it later in fact one of the characters mrs topping um i remember was i just briefly saw a nurse on um on television on a on a television program and she had such a good face

and I thought oh yeah she's great I'll use her so it's things like that you know I just get inspiration from from all over the place and I should also say it kind of relates a little bit to what we were just talking about the ability to to work when you can and how you need to can how you need to be able to had a few more messages on this our discussion about part-time work um one of those can one of those concerns is to do with health and um scarlet i know you know you you live with certain health issues as well yes both of us do we've got an inherited condition called Ehlers-Danlos syndrome which affects I mean it's a multi-systemic condition but it mainly affects our joints and nervous system um and so both of

us have had to reduce our working life uh well we've kind of we've kind of made our world so that it's possible to work but by doing that we've both gone freelance um and and making the books is part of that is part of that world really because we can do it lying down if you need to and and i suppose that's that's that's part of it so if what did you want to say on that i was just going to say that until recently, I did work part time from home for the NSPCC. And that worked really well because it was one of those roles where I was able to combine my freelance artistic work alongside having a salary. And it's that kind of flexibility that your previous contributors were talking about that can work. It's important for disability and it's

important for creativity as well I think. What do you want people Sophie to take away from this graphic novel No Surrender thinking about you know the suffragettes what they may already know but perhaps what they don't know? So my main priority when anyone reads one of our books is that they actually enjoy it and have a good time. So although we tend to tackle some serious worthy subjects, they are actually fun to read. So it's not like a history lesson. However, I feel that when you get to the end of No Surrender, it would be really difficult not to be very aware of the similarities between the arguments the suffragettes were putting forward and the things that we hear all around us now. There are similarities, like you alluded to

before, about the ethics of protest, when it's a good idea to be civilly disobedient and when it's not. But also things like, there's one passage in it where um some people talk about how the suffrage movement has divided the family and there's people the family on both sides and they're no longer speaking to each other and that reminded me of you know some of the things around brexit and this idea that um sometimes there are laws that are not just and it's everybody's job to do something about that is really obvious when you're looking at something which is kind of decided like whether women are human enough to have votes or not you know we like to think that's kind of agreed now but there are things that that we are faced with like climate crisis and race relations where

things are not necessarily decided yet and the laws are not necessarily just and the question is what do you do next is this something that's going to come up at both of your Christmases do you do Christmas together in line with what else we're hearing from our listeners or festive period we don't really do we we spend most of our time together remotely anyway yeah if i'm lucky i will get two teenagers return home for christmas that's it yeah like your contributor said earlier there's no pressure they can come if they want to all right it's all right it's low level there sophie scarlet ricard i wanted to ask you about that as we as we think about what will be discussed and perhaps some of those themes around festive tables.

The book is called No Surrender. It's a graphic novel. Thank you for talking to us about it this morning. I have to say just many more messages still coming in about this. And the one here says the answer to Christmas for us was for our son to marry a Hindu. Two families are always happy, both happy. One celebrates Diwali, the other Christmas. And another one here, which may or may not float your boat. No name on this one in terms of the plan. Oh, have we got a name? Let me just check. Oh, we do have a name. This is Ernie who's listening in Exeter. Avoiding all family complications this year by going to Cornwall and staying in a shepherd's

hut for three days over the Christmas period. I love my family, but I just need a bit of escapism to avoid all family dilemmas. I am so excited. Well, some people may be asking if you've got room in it because there's some quite complicated things coming in about how you manage or how you don't manage or how it just seems to happen to you, whatever happens to you over the festive period. Thank you so much for all of those messages today and for your contributions across, as always, a range of topics and for

your company. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. What happens when you combine dog shows? The Kennel Club is not overdoing it when they say it's the greatest dog show on earth. And poison. The world of dog breeding has been rocked by claims that a prize winner at Crufts was poisoned. It's extraordinary behaviour. It is. Some people are ruthless. The

fear was real. People were much more protected. They didn't leave their dog for a second. New podcast, Dead Competitive, presented by me, Kerry Godleman. Wow, look at that dog on the floor. It looks like a rug. No, I'm not a real detective. Crufts where every dog has its day. But I will try my best. Quite moving, that, innit? Subscribe to Dead Competitive on BBC Sounds.

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