Woman's Hour - Partners of veterans with PTSD, Kids and climate change, Regina King

Episode Date: October 22, 2019

In a new series, we hear from three women whose partners are veterans with PTSD. They describe what it's like living alongside the condition, often for decades, and how it's affected their own mental health, relationships and self-confidence. Over the past two years the charity Combat Stress has been running workshops across the country to help partners in crisis. This summer they launched an online programme - the first of its kind in the UK - designed to help partners isolated at home due to caring responsibilities, childcare and work pressures. Today we hear Sheila's story and how she found help for herself and her husband. Things are changing for women in Northern Ireland. Abortion has just been decriminalised and we can expect same-sex marriage to become available in the New Year. Northern Ireland was actually the first place in the UK where gay couples could get a civil partnership, but is now the last place in the UK to have same-sex marriage. Jane speaks to Grainne Close and Shannon Sickles - the first couple to get a civil partnership 15 years ago - about how things have changed. As more and more children and young people become engaged in environmental issues, how can parents support them and talk to them about climate change in an age-appropriate way? And are schools doing enough to educate this eco-conscious generation? We discuss with climate change psychotherapist Caroline Hickman, climate change teacher Fiona Cowen and teen eco-activist Ella Mann. The Oscar winning American actress Regina King, star of 'Boyz n the Hood', 'Jerry McGuire', 'Seven Seconds' and ‘If Beale Street Could Talk’, has been named as one of Time’s 100 most influential people of 2019. She talks to Jane about her new series, ‘Watchmen’.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. This is the Woman's Hour podcast. Today we've got the Oscar winner Regina King with us, star of the new HBO series Watchmen. If you have seen the first episode, you'll understand why the review in The Times this morning says weird, weird, weird, but definitely not boring. Regina will be with us live on Woman's Hour today. Also, we start a new series about the experiences of the partners of veterans who are living with PTSD. It's very hard hitting, actually, that series of interviews. And you'll hear the first one on Woman's Hour this morning.

And are children becoming more aware of the perils of climate change? Well, we know they are, and we know that many are really very concerned. Today, we get the view of a headteacher from Derbyshire, a climate change researcher and an eco-activist about how you should talk to your children about climate change, particularly if they are very concerned. And if you're in that situation, let us know. Let us know what your children are saying and what are they asking

at BBC Women's Hour on Twitter and Instagram. Or you can email the programme via our website, of course. Now, change has come to Northern Ireland. Abortion was decriminalised at midnight. That was something we talked about on Friday's edition of the programme. And you can hear that via BBC Sounds, of course. Also, from today, same-sex couples can now get married. Well, actually, it's not quite as simple as that because it never is.

The first ceremonies will be, we hope, in the February of 2020. But there is cause for celebration again today in terms of same-sex relationships. And you might recall that back in 2005, Northern Ireland made history. It was actually the first part of the UK to allow same-sex civil partnerships. And the very first couple to exchange their vows at Belfast City Hall back then were Shannon Sickles and Gráinne Close. And they are with us this morning in our Belfast studio. Shannon, Gráinne, good morning to you.

Good morning, Jane. Take us back then to that morning in 2005. Gráinne, what were your memories of that occasion? Oh, I remember feeling very overwhelmed, but very excited that Northern Ireland was going to be the first place where we could have same-sex civil partnership. Feeling slightly similar in terms of this morning where feeling emotional, thinking back to those like 14 years ago, 2005, when basically very emotional and excited about the change in Northern Ireland. And we knew back then, felt back then, that civil partnership was the first step in this journey towards marriage. Little did we know that it was going to be as long as it has taken. But we are delighted. I'm feeling really relieved this morning. And I have to say,

walking a little bit taller this morning as we walked into the BBC studio here. Yeah, it must be a very, very, well, it is actually an important day. It's funny, when history is made, when real change happens, it's never in quite the way you expect. And this is absolutely true of this, isn't it, Shannon? It is, yeah. And as Gordy mentioned, and you mentioned, it's been a very, very long time.

I mean, this morning, I'm kind of in disbelief still. And it's taking a while for the realization to settle in that friends are saying, so we're going to look into booking our wedding. We're already getting requests for wedding presents. And there are all these opportunities to celebrate in a way that as gay women, we haven't necessarily always been able to think of. I mean, I remember during our civil partnership, one of our gay friends said to us, I am so excited to buy your wedding gift because I have never been able to. And so this little things like that are huge, huge deals right now to the LGBT community. And I'm still, I can't believe it. I've got lots of outfits and shoes that I've got to go and buy

because everybody is going to have to go have a big party. Well, tell us a bit about your relationship, Shannon. How did you meet? We met in New York, Jane, a long, long, long, long time ago. And I think Gráinne did that kind of thing that certainly people from Ireland do, which is they leave the motherland, they go and find a mate, and then they kind of throw them over their shoulder and drag them back to this island. And Belfast is a really funny place, as I'm sure recent headlines have kind of brought some attention into the contradictions that exist here. But who would have thought certainly all those years ago, the activists have been working so, so long in the LGBT community, that the last place to decriminalize homosexuality in 83 would be the first to have a public civil partnership in 2005.

Northern Ireland went on quite a journey in quite a short period of time, didn't it, actually? I know that you two weren't allowed to go wild at midnight last night because you have a three-year-old, Grainne, so I guess that's not possible. Yeah, no, we do indeed. And I was thinking if it had been ten years ago, we would have been out there partying and celebrating.

But last night we enjoyed Midnight Hit and we had our peppermint tea and we were exchanging messages with all our friends and family who are delighted for this day. And so many people who were waiting for marriage and who were saying, no, we're going to wait until it's marriage, who have now promised a little girl, a little three-year-old to be their flower girl. So there's going to be a lot of activity in come February and our little three-year-old becoming a flower girl.

There's a lot of emphasis here on what's going to happen in terms of dresses, shoes and your three-year-old being almost fully employed as a flower girl for all eternity. So she's well up to speed with all this as well, is she, and happy for you? Yes, she's very happy. I mean, it's a very significant day. She doesn't realise the significance of today for us, and she will someday looking back. Social media now, social media wasn't around when we had several

partnerships back in 2005. It doesn't play the part that it plays now, so she'll look back and she'll be able to see that today was a very significant day, momentous day for us here in Northern Ireland. Can I just ask you, growing up in Northern Ireland, when did you first realise you were gay? Well, I first realised when I was 13 and it didn't come out until I was 19. And that's because you didn't feel able to or tell me. Yeah no I grew up in a Catholic

minority living in a huckle and I'm very proud of my roots I'm very proud of where I came from but it wouldn't have been the thing to come out in a huckle. My family are Catholic they're practicing Catholics so there would have been huge, I suppose, misunderstandings, limited acceptance around gay people, so yeah, I've come on my own personal journey through that, and I thought 2005 for me was a, when we had civil partnership

was a big step. I feel that even from becoming a parent that there's been even more acceptance within my own family, and they have embraced our daughter and embraced our family in a way that I could never imagine back when I was 13-year-old living in a huckle. Yeah, and being fearful, presumably, of what might lie ahead for you. Yeah.

Well, that is over, and that's fantastic, and that's why so many people are in a celebratory mood today. Are you going to get married then, and what will it mean if you do? What will we mean? Well, that's one of the interesting things because we can't upgrade our civil partnership the way that you could have in the uk you were able to upgrade we actually and that's a difference in a difference in the legislation here we're going to have to go through the whole marriage again so that's something that we're going to have to plan in a wedding and all of that in the future

unfortunately we would have probably because our situation has changed we're going to have to plan in a wedding and all of that in the future. Unfortunately, we would have probably, because our situation has changed, we would have liked to have a low-key upgrade. But that's not, we can't do that. So, yeah, we're going to have to get married. And that might mean you have to have a wedding list. Yes, again. Well, on the other hand, I mean, who doesn't want a new pan? Exactly, exactly. I'd go for it.

Well, I hope your little girl has a fantastic year or so ahead of her. It sounds like she will because she's going to be pretty busy and in demand. But congratulations to you both. And I hope things do do work out for you. Thank you. Thank you. on but it is most prevalent in the armed forces and many veterans because of the stigma can wait years actually before they get help or feel able to get help. Research now shows that their partners can face an increased risk of developing secondary PTSD. Over the last couple of years the charity Combat Stress has run workshops to help partners in crisis and this summer it launched an online version to help partners isolated at home. We've been given exclusive access to three women who've taken part. In 2018-19, more than 15,000 calls were made to the Combat Stress Helpline. Of these, 57% were made by new callers. Often it's their partners who persuade them to make that call. You're going to hear from a 63-year-old woman now we're calling Sheila.

She's been married for 44 years. Her husband left the military 14 years ago. But as she tells Tamsin Smith, it was when he retired from his next career that his condition got worse. He was drinking, going out. His behaviour was just antagonising people all the time, you know, or just never having an interest in me. I hadn't actually thought of PTSD at all, all over the years. I'd always thought that's how he is. He's just being a right so-and-so, I suppose. Did you ever feel at risk, afraid of him? No, never. The only time I did,

if he was really drunk, he would sometimes antagonise me and force me into an argument, but I would always, I learnt actually over the years to walk away and go upstairs or somewhere like that, but he never ever laid a hand to me he's hit many a wall by getting angry he's cut his hand and smashed his hands up by just hitting a wall but he's never so no it was bizarre but yet if people knew how he was they would probably think that that's what I was I was being hit or something but no never how did other people perceive him to be? Other people perceived him to be caring, funny, in for a laugh. He was very good at his job. I used to listen to him and talk to other people and used to be interested.

But yet with me or in my company and around, he'd be totally and utterly disengaged. I knew if I'd confront him, he'd turn it around. Because over the years, that's what he was very good at doing that. You know, I'd say, why did you do something like that and he used to say things like I don't know what goes through your head and make it as if it was me you know he was very good at flipping it all around so I used to think well maybe it is me he could go from being really Mr Nice Guy to being really quite horrible and then just going out and going out for hours and hours and hours, you know.

So, of course, I didn't know where he was, what he was doing. And since then, you know, I found out that he didn't want it. He wanted it to die, you know. What was the tipping point for you where you thought, I can't do this anymore? I was actually ringing him up or ringing at work and he wasn't at work, you know, and that was hours and hours later. And if I questioned him about it, he said,

no, I don't know where I was, I wasn't doing anything. And then he'd go out drinking and everything. So it was a series of things like that that I couldn't know where I was, I wasn't doing anything, and then he'd go out drinking and everything. So it was a series of things like that that I couldn't cope with anymore. When did you find out where he was instead of being at work? By following him. I had to. He was pretending to... This is very hot because I've never told anyone this. He was

pretending to be somebody else. He was calling himself another name. He was then ringing up a lot of women and things like that but it was

out of control. It was sort of like about 20 a day and things like that you know and then he was just going sitting on the cliff and I found another phone and he was calling himself another name and I thought god what this is not. I don't know what's happening. That was the tipping point. That's when I wrote about 10 pages. But I had to follow him for about three days because I knew he would turn it around on me and find an excuse. He was very good at doing that. He was very good at lying. You know, even the drink, he could disguise and lie about, like, you know.

But so I had to sort of turn the tables and follow him and write and record everything for three days so that I knew he couldn't turn round and say it wasn't happening. So you spent three days compiling a dossier of evidence to present to him. I mean, how did he react when you did that? Broke down like a baby. Absolutely broke down like a baby because there was nowhere he could turn. Absolutely nowhere he could turn.

And was that the point that he accepted that he needed help? Yeah, but again, he didn't want to. When I said I'd read about PTSD and the writing was there, he couldn't justify going for help because he had no physical, that you could see, injury, you know, and he was so embarrassed and everything, but I had to do it. Tell me about the stigma that you encountered, because on one hand there's the stigma that your husband encountered,

that he didn't want to acknowledge that he had a problem. But what about for you? I couldn't tell people that, oh, he's gone off with someone else again or he didn't come home last night or he doesn't want to live anymore and he's drinking because, in a way, that was me failing as well. I didn't know what to do and it was always, well, he's obviously doing that because of me. But when we got the treatment, I thought, oh, flip, it hasn't been me late, you know.

At what point did you realise that you needed some help and support as well? Probably a little while after that, because I had to be his crutch. He was absolutely a total broken man. So I was having to be strong. So I suppose it was months later, and I thought, I don't know what to do. It's just because it was all just coming back at me, you know? I don't know what to do.

I had to be strong for him, but I was actually really breaking inside, and I knew I couldn't tell anybody. Were you getting symptoms as well I mean how was it for you? Yeah I wasn't sleeping I wasn't I hadn't slept for ages so I knew it was making me ill. And what do you think that the impact was on your identity and your confidence in yourself? Massively on my own self-confidence. Because, like I'm saying, there was other women as well, like, you know, over the years and incidents.

So I just accepted that that's how it was. I was a bit worthless, I suppose. Yeah. I just felt it was me all the time. Was there anyone you could talk to about it? No. No, and a lot of people don't even actually know that half of the things that he's done or being late you know because it's a case of i feel a bit ashamed because like people would say well why why were you why are you still there

you know but i suppose over the years deep down I knew that that wasn't him you know I knew and I now know that it wasn't him because I've actually got my husband back now you know but it's taken a long time he actually takes an interest in me now that's all I that's all I wanted. So then you went on the partners programme run by Combat Stress. That was just really an eye-opener. It was so nice. Other women were there just as angry as I was as well,

saying, why should I have to put up with this? You know, I mean, a lot of them don't put up with it. And a lot of marriages do fail late, you know. But it was quite nice for me to see other people. And I thought, yeah, that's how I feel. Do you blame him? Or do you blame PTSD? I think a bit of both. I hate, PTSD element of it and I hate that that's done it to him. I really do. These things that he'd gone through years ago, if he could have dealt with them like he's dealt with them now, 30 years later, then we wouldn't have gone through this. But at the time we didn didn't know we didn't know what it was that's the hard thing when you compare what was happening three years ago with your life now I mean how different is it oh he's like he's like the person that I knew when I first married him now and he cares he He wants to be with me. He's interested in me.

He talks to me. You know, I didn't realise that I'd lost all that to that extent. Now I've got it back because you live for, you just accept it for so long. Well, that woman is somebody we're calling Sheila and we'd like to thank her for being willing to tell her story and take part in the programme. Tomorrow, a woman who discovered that she had secondary PTSD.

And if you want to read about all three of the women we're featuring this week in that series, then there's an article on the Woman's Hour website and also links that offer support. So that's bbc.co.uk slash Woman's Hour. Tomorrow on the programme, Jenny is marking the 40th anniversary of Clean Break, that's the theatre company that works with women affected by the criminal justice system. And just a quick heads up about Radio 4 at 4 o'clock today,

Born in Bradford is a programme, well it's actually a series, it's been running for many years, about a major health study about young people in Bradford and today that programme is featuring type 2 diabetes in teenagers. It's an excellent series presented by Winifred Robinson and it's something we have discussed on the programme,

I know, before. But just to mention, it's back this afternoon, Radio 4, 4 o'clock, Born in Bradford. Now, Regina King is here, Oscar-winning actress, star of Boys in the Hood, Jerry Maguire, Seven Seconds is a Netflix show that's excellent, and the film If Beale Street Could Talk. And now you're in Watchmen. I watched the first episode last night.

I've just showed you the Times review. Yes, weird, weird, weird, but definitely not boring. That's the Times of London, Regina. So you must be delighted. It's a heck of a program. I'm going to just try and outline the premise. It's based on the graphic novel of the same name. It's set in an alternative America where really sinister white supremacists roam the countryside. The police have got to wear masks

and they can't actually tell anybody what they do. And Robert Redford is the president. So your character is Angela. I'm just going to play a short clip. Here you are as Angela, who ostensibly is about to open a bakery, and she's gone on a school visit to talk, apparently entirely innocently, well, about cooking. Here it is. I was born just outside of Saigon, and when I grew up, I was a police officer there

until I moved here to Tulsa. Did you stay a police officer? until I moved here to Tulsa. Did you stay a police officer? For a while. Then I retired. Why? Um, I was one of the cops who got attacked on the white night. And that was before police officers were allowed to wear masks, so the bad guys, they knew who I was, and they knew where I lived,

and they came to my house, and they shot me right here. And the doctors, they had to pull apart my insides to find the bullet and get it out. Anyway, I figured making cakes and cookies was better than getting shot. Yes. Your character, Angela, she doesn't, well, she does, well, the bakery hasn't opened. No, it has not.

Does it ever open? Well, people have to tune in to find out. But the bakery is, I hope it's not a spoiler. I guess because the first episode is aired already. It's a front. Yeah, because you are really still in the police. Yes, I am. Very much so.

And you wear one of the best uniforms I think I've ever seen. Just describe that. There is a picture in the Times today, but just describe it. It is, well, first of all, I think, you know, you have that old superhero vision, the cape crusader, someone wearing a cape. Well, that's what you are. Yeah. And instead of having a cape that's around your neck, kind of put a twist on it where she has this cape skirt. And it billows out just like a cape when I walk.

And it's all black and leather and a hood and she spray paints her face to disguise herself and wears a balaclava she pulls it up to cover up her nose and mouth. It is terrifying the first episode I'm assuming the rest of the series follows suit but it's also fantastically entertaining. Yeah. Were you into this comic book world? Was this your thing? No, I was not familiar with the graphic novel. But Damon Lindelof, the creator, he made sure I knew the history because this show is not a sequel. Dave it um dave gibbons who's uh been very supportive of the show um calls it an extrapolation and so the the graphic novel is canon so we use that that's almost like the bible of this alternate history it really is regarded as yeah people who love

this stuff they really love it. Oh, they do. I mean, Watchmen, there are people who, like, will list their top five favorite books, and Watchmen will be on there. Yeah. Were you at all wary of taking on the role, bearing in mind how much the source material means to some people?

I mean, sure. You know, I think i'm lucky because my character is not was not in the original um okay so they can't get it yes exactly exactly so that part um i i can be relieved with not having to take on that responsibility but um sure when something is love the way watchman is you um want the fans to know that, you know, you have full respect for the source materials. And those that are true fans, they've watched the first episode and they saw all the Easter eggs that were put in there. That was kind of, you know, paying homage to them. It's all in there, I gather.

I have to say, I didn't know the world either, but I'll take your word for it, that they're being cared for. In Jerry Maguire, I think some people called you best supporting wife, didn't they? Did they? But that was a more traditional role. You are not, there's nothing supporting about your role in this. You are right in the heart of the action.

Yes. You're driving it. Yeah, and I think in a big way that character Angela, we're seeing this world through her eyes. She's the audience's POV. You're our way in. And that must be something that really satisfies you. Oh, absolutely.

Absolutely. I mean, you know, this is to be on a poster or billboard and I'm a woman and the title is Watch Men is, you know, it's pretty awesome. I was watching your Netflix series Seven Seconds last night. Now, this is about an incident on a snowy highway where an off-duty officer is on his way to his wife's in hospital and he kills a young black boy and there's a cover-up. You're a star of this as well but you have done other roles in which the fact that you're a woman of colour isn't relevant. Are you bored to tears with being asked the question I'm about to ask you, which is why do I always seem to end up asking not of color asking themselves the question of racism and their space, how they feel, their relationship to racism? And I'm speaking of in America. I know that we're here in the UK, but I'm sure race is an issue here as well.

Why is that question asked of the person of colour and why isn't it something that's not asked of yourself? And yet, of course, racism is at the heart of some of your most powerful work. Yes, I mean, you know, even with American crime, there were, that was part, and that's part of that storytelling as well. I think just as a woman, I'll be 49 in a couple months. And, you know, and I'm sure you can relate to this as you mature, as you become wiser. The way you move in the world changes. The way you think changes. Your connection to something either gets tighter or you realize what's not so important. of these roles came, they spoke to me probably more than if they would have come to me in my 20s, just because I've lived more life. And do you feel a stronger sense of injustice? Is that something you think has come with maturity?

I don't know that it's a stronger sense of injustice. It's the reality that nothing has changed from as long as I can remember. The only things that have changed is that we have more documented conversation of where you hear politicians say things like white male politicians say things like well you know I worked hard to get to where I am and you know that that's what you should be doing and it's kind of like oh so we're just gonna erase history and you're just going to not acknowledge that you have always lived a privileged life. And the problem is that some people, a lot of people, end up voting for those people. Yeah, because we don't do our research. I mean, I think that that's another thing, you know, disenfranchised people don't have as many resources as far as to gain the information, to understand the difference between politicians, what they stand for in different um here's the thing i think we get so caught up in voting for the president and forget about all of those assembly men and women all of those local politicians that are probably more

important to um making decisions of what's happening in your community directly and briefly you have said you you want to to, I think, your own production company. Yeah, I have. You have already. Okay. And employ more women. Yes. Have you got to a stage where you're employing, is it 50% women you wanted to?

That's the idea. Yeah. To create parody. Yeah. Right now, I am working on, it'll be my theatrical directorial debut. And we're in soft prep right now and yeah that's what we are doing it is not as i said it's not going to be easy it i'm in the middle of it right now and it's not easy but um we are making progress which is a good thing good luck with that thank you we should say watchman is on sky on Sky Atlantic and now TV on Mondays in the UK at nine o'clock.

And I didn't mention that Jeremy Irons is... I mean, he's just everything. Well, he's naked in the first episode. Yeah, but I mean, to look like that at his age, I mean, he's... I have to say, it makes me feel old because I remember him in the British TV series Brideshead Revisited when I was a very persuasive, persuadable 17 year old girl. And we all loved a bit of Jeremy in those days. And for reasons I didn't fully understand, he's having his thigh massaged by a woman dressed up as a housemaid in a castle. Well, this is what I will say.

If you continue to tune in, all of those questions will be answered. Thank you, Regina. All right. That was a very, very good way of selling the show. Well, not that you haven't already. Watchmen is the show. Regina King, great to meet you. Thank you. Nice to meet you. That's Regina King. Now, more and more children and young people we know are getting interested in climate change and eco activism. And some children genuinely are worried. Here's an email we've had in this morning actually from a listener in derbyshire who says my son is nine he asked me

if he'll die when he's 20 because of climate change and it breaks my heart and i don't know what to tell him because i really don't want him to worry too much um we need everybody including children to know this is an emergency though and to action. So there's the view of one listener. So we thought we'd talk today about how you talk to your children, if you have them, about what's going on at the moment. Caroline Hickman is a climate change researcher from the University of Bath. Caroline, good morning to you. She's also a Climate Psychology Alliance executive. Fiona Cowan is a head teacher at Bolsover Infant School in Derbyshire.

Good morning to you Fiona Good morning Now you've completed the Educate Global Climate Change Teacher Academy accredited by the UN What does that mean? So that's a training course that takes about 20 hours to complete which gives you an adult-led view of climate change using lots of research and knowledge

so that you are able to teach our children well. Okay and Ella Mann joins us too she is a climate activist from Oxford good morning to you Ella. Right Caroline I know you've conducted interviews with children from the UK and also from the Maldives where the effects of climate change are really being felt so what did you learn from those interviews? Absolutely well I've been talking with children for the last five years, which I think is important because this was before Greta Thunberg and the school climate strikers started to sort of become well known. So this is what children have been saying to me for some time. And what I'm really noticing is that they're clear sighted about the destructive impact of global warming on both

themselves and on other populations but also other species on nature so they've got a strong empathy with nature in the natural world so they're saying things to me like um and they're also very insightful the age for taking the environment for granted is long past. We now need to be thinking about the future. People need to be listening to children. If we listen to children, then maybe our children will inherit a world in which they can bear to bring their own children. So children are thinking not just about the impact on themselves, but the impact on future children and the environment. So our listener who emails to say that she has a nine-year-old who is worried that he will die at 20, that's not

uncommon. It's not that uncommon, no. But what I think is unusual is that many children haven't been talking about this up until now. But they're now beginning to talk about it more and more. So it's becoming more visible. But it has been going on for some time. And I think it's... I just want to bring it, sorry,

excuse me, I just want to bring in Fiona. Fiona, you're there with small children because yours is an infant school. Did you do that course accredited by the UN because you felt there was a real need because kids were asking you about this stuff? Yeah, I think we as a school have been looking at climate change

for a good few years now. This course came online in May time. And I felt it was really important that we made sure that we were teaching children correctly, giving them the proper view about what's happening. And not making them unnecessarily fearful. Absolutely because what the course teaches you is to empower people, to empower children, to empower women to be able to support and help themselves. Have you had small kids coming to you in distress about this? I can't say we've experienced children in distress but we've had lots of interesting questions and we teach our children at school to think for themselves and to ask questions

to be independent in their thought and as a result of that children do ask difficult questions but it's about listening to those children and responding to them appropriately with the facts and empowering them to believe and understand that they can do something. And what about parents because Bolsover is a place that I have to say I wouldn't immediately associate it with widespread concern about climate change I mean that's a generalisation and I apologise for it but you know what I mean. Yeah, I think it's quite interesting. Bolsover's right in the centre of England. It's right by the M1.

It's an ex-mining community, isn't it? Absolutely, yeah. And you do think that it would be a topic that wasn't really sort of on people's radar. But actually what we've found over the last three or four months is we've seen a huge interest from the community. We've got parents setting up recycling sites on Facebook. We've got people asking to have meetings where we can discuss these issues. Parents have been extremely positive in the work that we've been doing because I think we've taken an approach that's very child-friendly. It's very age-appropriate and we're walking children through the knowledge that

they need in order to discuss this appropriately. And Ella tell us how have you come to be a climate activist? Well it's been a long journey I think it started with a love for the natural world and I think that's a really important starting point for many young people because obviously if you have a connection to the natural world you have an urge to protect it. So yeah, I think the removal of children from the natural world which we're experiencing at the moment is really... What do you mean by the removal from the natural world? Well, I mean the amount of children who play in natural places

has decreased massively over the last decade from a kind of half to less than one in ten, I think. And this is extremely dangerous because obviously if you don't have experience of being in the natural world you're not going to want to protect it you know if if the most nature you've experienced is a little bit of grass outside your house that's not really you know you're not going to fight to protect that whereas if you've experienced the full wonder of the natural world, then, you know, you have an urge to, yeah, fight for it. I wonder exactly, Fiona, what you teach the pupils at your school.

Which lessons actually are about climate change? Where do you shoehorn it into the curriculum? So, yeah, shoehorn's an interesting way of phrasing it because obviously the curriculum's jam-packed, there's lots to teach. We've always delivered a broad and balanced curriculum at school. But, you know, my children are three to seven and they need to learn the basic skills of reading and writing.

Of course. What we've tried to do is embed it within what we're already teaching so that it's not become a bolt-on part of the curriculum. So a lot of what we do is about what we were always doing. I think it's just interesting what our friends just said about children having an understanding and a love of the natural world. That's a lot of where we start with our children, going out into the woods, doing lots of adventurous activities.

We spent a lot of time working on our outdoor area. Those are things we've always done but the idea now is that as part of that we include knowledge and discussions around climate change and the concepts and so for example last week our children went out on a walk around the village that was talking about preparing to write stories, but it was also a mapping exercise for geography. But as part of that, they were also looking at how many washing lines had washing on, how many solar panels they could see,

because when they returned back into class, the teachers had quite lengthy conversations about why would we be looking for washing lines and what would people be using if they're not using their washing lines and what would the be using if they're not using their washing lines and what would that what would the impact of that be um and so the children are not doing it as a separate subject no i get that that sounds i mean you're basically you're you're going out there and everything you're doing and learning it's embedded in real life and the local community that makes perfect sense to me um caroline what about uh dietary changes my kids went vegetarian um still

are vegetarian but i have to say know, they still leave lights on, still have lots of showers and still never turn down a lift. So what do you say about young people's attitudes to all this, actually? Well, it's complicated. I think you've got to deal with both practical and emotional solutions. You can't just focus on external practical solutions. We've also got to be talking to children about how they feel. So you can deal with it on a practical level

by talking to them about the milks that you buy, get a different range of milks. Yeah, I mean, the thing about cow's milk is, and I appreciate there are arguments against it, although not from Britain's dairy farmers, of course. There are arguments against corn-fed cows. Right, OK, but it's cheaper than many of the alternatives. And, of course, jobs depend.

In the farming community, jobs depend on the continuation of dairy farming. But other alternatives are expensive, more expensive. They are. But in the long term, are we talking about short-term or long-term solutions? In the long term, we are going to need to make these adjustments. So we have to actually have economic and political solutions that will enable the communities to make these changes. So we can't get stuck on it costs more. We actually have to address what is the bigger issue, which is the long term survival of our communities and the planet. So we do have to find ways to address these complicated things. Sure and is there proof that doing

something about the environment whether it's recycling or cutting down on the amount of red meat you eat for example makes children feel less fearful about the future makes them think they're doing something? I don't think that on its own makes children less fearful I think you have to do that in relationship with others with other children children, with adults, with schools. It's a relational issue. It's not just a practical issue. We're not going to save the planet, so to speak, by just planting trees or switching off cow's milk. We also have to be working together in community and we have to take care of the emotional feelings

which are underpinning the anxieties, which is grief and sadness and anger and despair and frustration from the point of view of the young people, that adults haven't stepped up and done enough to deal with this up until now. So actually, that's what's causing more anxiety for young people than anything else, is they need to see adults taking action on this. Ella? Yeah, I totally agree. I think we really have to take care of the emotional well-being of us young people because we are very angry and very frustrated that we're just kind of coming into this world that's, you know, just breaking, just falling apart. Would you recommend school strikes then, Ella? Is it something you've supported? well supported by the adults you know the adults weren't saying you have to do it this way you know we we have all the answers they were saying we really support what you're doing how can we help

you and that was such an incredibly empowering thing because yeah I get that but of course Fiona as a head teacher I can't believe for one minute that you would endorse school strikes and not not least because your school's doing its best to teach the subject properly. It's an interesting journey actually this because as a, we didn't really want to endorse children missing in school. So we talked about the fact that we would spend the day in September talking about climate change, teaching about climate change, and we would commit every Friday to have a message as part of our work that we do. However, with conversations with the parents in school, actually what they were saying is that we need to show

that our children have got a voice and we need to talk to them about what peaceful protest looks like and to give them an opportunity to say what they want. Thank you very much, Fiona. Fiona Cowan, who is from Bolsover Infant School, and you heard too from the climate activist Ella Mann and Caroline Hickman from the University of Bath. To your thoughts on this matter, let's see.

Sarah, I'm glad you're covering this. My children are still young and not fully aware, but I am so scared for when things do become more apparent for them. As a mum, I get scared and depressed when I think about their future. When I hear them talking of their hopes and plans for their future, I find the innocence of what's around the corner very painful. I also worry that my own stress about it must be having an impact on them. As a mother, I feel I have to do everything I can to try and help avert this crisis, and I wish the government and people in power would do the

same. I would feel a lot less anxious if I could see proper action being taken and everybody working together to alleviate the problems. I think the lack of action is what is most terrifying. From Sheila, instead of full-on scaremongering, why not remind the children that digging up the garden and concreting over and cutting down trees because they make a mess is not kind to the world which is changing. Be gentle, show respect for nature and their awareness will evolve without worry. Well, that's what I feel. Tracy says, we must start to behave as responsible adults. We should allow children to be children and allow them to grow up in an environmentally safe world. Mike, this is echoing something I was saying earlier, actually.

I'm sad to hear about these kids. I felt the same as a child in the 60s about nuclear war. Yeah, Mike, I was saying that certainly in the early 80s, everybody I knew was pretty much obsessed by the prospect of nuclear war. But, you know, is it the same as the fear about climate change? I'm not entirely sure. Here's an email from Olivia who says she has a nine-year-old godchild also concerned about climate change, but their staple diet is overwhelmingly meat-based, and the primary school they go to offers a vegetarian option on just one day a week. I don't know whether, Olivia, that can be true,

because there must be vegetarian kids at the school, who, although there almost certainly are, who will get a meal. But anyway, she goes on to say, During a recent visit, I noted that the gym area boasted a huge montage collated by the school featuring issues about environmental damage. I think we should make all schools, prisons and public-run entities vegan or vegetarian. If people want meat, then they can eat it at home.

Pigwich says, Caroline, your guest said, let's not get hung up on the additional costs of different milk, but that's a facile argument. For parents on low incomes, milk is cheap and nutritional. They have no choice but to be hung up, so-called, on the cost. Sarah writes to say that she has a seven-year-old daughter who has lots of conversations with her about climate change and about the climate generally.

And her daughter, she says, would like there to be a kind of international anthem about making the climate better. Apparently, Sarah's daughter said to her, we need an anthem for the world like a beans on toast song. I just love the way her mind works, says Sarah. She speaks about these things with such hope. Music can be uplifting and very thought provoking. Sarah, thank you for that and good luck to your daughter. I don't know the Beans on Toast song, but I do love Beans on Toast.

I'd quite like to know what the song is. Timmy says, interesting conversation today. My students' overwhelming emotion in a secondary school isn't fear, but anger towards the past generations that have allowed the climate emergency to get to such a critical state. That was something that Ella said, wasn't it, actually? About PTSD, this listener says, I recognise this as very real, having become mentally ill at 50

and then again more recently. I'm not an armed services survivor. I'm a survivor of early traumatic experiences when my mother abandoned me and I went into a quite horrendous state nursery. There are lots of us survivors of early trauma. We flood prisons and psychiatric units. We're traumatised through no fault of our own and in many cases by the very services that are supposed to care for us. Our mental illnesses are quite likely caused by post-traumatic stress disorder too, aren't they?

A new treatment for paranoia apparently focuses on making people feel safe. I think, says the listener, that could be very interesting. Right, and on the subject of my conversation with Regina King, Marie says, actually I'm going to take issue with Marie because I didn't say this, but anyway, Marie says, did I hear Jane correctly when at the end of the conversation, she was salivating over the fact that Jeremy Irons gets his kit off and then comments on how good he looks for a man of his age? Right. It was Regina who said he looked good for a man of his age. And I certainly didn't use the expression get his kit off, nor would I honestly say I was salivating over him. I mean, Jeremy Irons is not 35. He is probably in his 70s. We can check that. Okay, we found out

Jeremy Irons is 71. Anyway, Marie says, in what circumstances could you imagine two men on Radio 4 saying the same thing about a woman and still have a job at the end of the day. I found it outrageous and hypocritical and I'm grateful for a meaningful response. Well, I would say the meaningful response was, frankly, that men have been doing all sorts of things over many, many years and on Woman's Hour, very occasionally, Marie, we like to have a tiny, teeny, tiny bit of revenge and I definitely refute the suggestion that I was salivating.

Marie, seriously, I take your point. I think we have to accept that this is now a time where women can occasionally say the sorts of things that men have always said. And you're probably right. You have a point. So perhaps I shouldn't have said it. And when I next see Regina King, I'll also tell her that she shouldn't have said it either. So we'll both accept it. Thank you, though, for contacting the programme. You do make a very fair point or reflection. Jenny is here tomorrow with the podcast and the programme, of course, if you're the sort of person still listening to Linear Radio. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies.

I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service,

The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.