Woman's Hour - Paternity Leave, Wimbledon, Sudan civil war, Women footballers

Episode Date: June 30, 2025

Introduced in 2003, statutory paternity leave, allows most new fathers and second parents in the UK to take up to two weeks off work. As a result, according to a new report from the Institute for Policy Research at the University of Bath, women continue to shoulder most of the care burden after childbirth. The report calls on the UK government to introduce six weeks of well-paid paternity leave, arguing the move would promote gender equality, support working families and boost economic growth. Nuala McGovern is joined by co-author of that report Dr Joanna Clifton-Sprigg.This summer, women's sport takes centre stage across the BBC and especially here on Woman's Hour where we'll be keeping you up to date across all the action. The UEFA Women's Euro 2025 championship starts on Wednesday but today is the first day of the Wimbledon tennis championships. A total of 23 British players are competing in the men's and women's singles this year - that's the most since 1984. And the women's line is reported to be the strongest since the 80s. Playing today are British number 2 Katie Boulter and British Number One, Emma Raducanu who faces another Brit- 17 year old, Mimi Xu. Molly McEl-wee, tennis journalist and author of a new women's tennis book 'Building Champions' and Naomi Cavaday, former British player and part of the BBC commentating team at Wimbledon this year discuss.The French-Tunisian documentary filmmaker Hind Meddeb joins us to discuss her latest film Sudan, Remember Us. For four years she was embedded with Sudanese activists in the country capturing the start of a sit in protest at Army headquarters in Khartoum in 2019 which led to a massacre and subsequent civil war. She is joined by Yousra Elbagir, Sky News’ Africa Correspondent who will explain the significance of that sit-in in 2019 and why the war in Sudan shouldn’t be dismissed as just another civil war but as an uprising that affects us all more globally. The women’s Euros start this week, with teams from both England and Wales taking part. The Lionesses won the Euros in 2022 and much was made of the number of openly lesbian players both in the England squad and across the other teams. In a new graphic novel called Florrie a football love story, Anna Trench tells the story of the ground breaking women footballers from the end of the First World War and highlights the pioneering lesbians players of the past. Rachael Bullingham, Senior Lecturer of Sport and Exercise at the University of Gloucestershire joins the discussion.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Kirsty Starkey

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. deal ratings and price history. So you know a great deal when you see one. That's cargurus.ca, cargurus.ca. BBC Sounds music radio podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Women's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. Well, it is hot out there today, as no doubt you have heard. Anyone considering some intense competitive exercise perhaps? Well, Wimbledon, as you were also hearing in the news bulletin, will be getting underway in 34 degree heat, expected to be the hottest ever opening day. As some are saying, it also opens with the

British women's tennis game the strongest since the 1980s. So what happened to create that scenario? That conversation coming up. Also, did your family use paternity leave? Why? Why not? Well there's a new report from the University of Bath and it's calling for an extension

of paternity leave for fathers to six weeks and paid at 90% of average earnings and also available from day one of employment. Now I'm wondering would that have made a difference to you? We're going to have a discussion on why the University of Bath has come to that conclusion that that is the way forward. You can text the number is 84844 for your thoughts on paternity leave on social media or at BBC Woman's Hour or you can email us through our website for a WhatsApp message or a voice note the

number is 03 700 100 444. Also today we look back at what has brought Sudan to this point of a full-scale civil war. We're going to hear from Hind, Madeb, her latest film is Sudan Remember Us and also Sky News Africa correspondent Yusra El-Baghir will be with us. Plus we have a gorgeous fictional graphic novel about women's football that has been called a love letter to the women who played, cheered and fought for the right to belong on the pitch and to the families who keep their stories alive. And a trench brings us Flory, a football love story.

And we'll also talk about some of the lesbian players who broke down barriers. But let us begin. Because this summer, women's sport is taking centre stage across the BBC and especially here on Women's Hour, where we will be keeping you up to date across all the action. The UEFA Women's Euro 2025 Championship starts on Wednesday. Today, as I mentioned, it is the first day of Wimbledon, the tennis championship, and there's a total of 23 British players competing in the men and women's singles this year, that is the most since 1984. The women's line is reported to be the strongest since the 80s. Lots of us have memories of those games in the 80s don't we? Well playing today are British number

2 Katie Bolter, also British number 1 Emma Raducanu who faces another British person and that is Mimi Shoo. Shoo, yes. I'm joined by two people now who are watching it very intently. Molly McElwee, tennis journalist and author of a new women's tennis book Building Champions and we have Naomi Cavaday, former British player and part of the BBC's commentating team at Wimbledon this year, so taking a few minutes out with us. Good to have both of you with us. Molly, let me begin with you. Why this strong line up of female British players, do you think? Morning. Thanks for having me.

I think it's probably a combination of things. A lot of the players talk, a lot of the players do talk about how having other people around you doing well often helps you. It means they're all practicing together at the National Tennis Centre. They're all kind of willing each other on. The British Billie Jean King Cup team is a very kind of close-knit group and I think, yeah, they're all willing each other on. Like you said at the beginning, there's three British women in the top 50 at the moment, which is the most since the 1980s. It's a big deal and coming into Wimbledon for there to be this kind of strong group is really positive and hopefully we'll see them in action throughout

the next few days rather than just today. Naomi, what about what is sometimes called the Emma Raducanu effect? Is it a thing? And tell me whether you think it is having an effect? Without question, it's a thing and it runs deep as well. It's one thing that by her achieving what she achieved winning the US Open after coming through qualifying, she wasn't even a WTA Tour player. It means that other players look at that and say, well, why not me? Players that grew up beating her or competing with her, they know her well. It just feels that little bit more within reach than it would have before where you put it up on a pedestal. The other thing is the coach education that happens. When somebody has achieved that, all of the coaches that have worked with her, they just sort of get bumped up in terms of their level of knowledge and their standard awareness. And so my brother,

for example, was her coach when she was young. And then all of a sudden, he's the head of the National Academy. We've got youngsters that he's coaching. She's winning the U.S. Open. And he's able to impart his knowledge, talk about her journey in depth. And actually one of those players was Mimi Hsu, and they're now gonna face off in in the first round so she's somebody who's benefited from the coach education and the lifting coaching standards from Emma's win. So that is Emma and Mimi today. Any expectation of that particular game? It's gonna be tough because for Mimi she is her first ever Wimbledon, she's 18 years old and she's gonna be on number one court against Emma Raducanu, a huge idol of hers

growing up, of course, watching everything that Emma achieved. So Mimi is the sort of character I don't expect her to get overwhelmed with the situation. But yes, I just hope that they can let their tennis do the talking and then she can give it a good go, that's for sure. She can get stuck in. I was calling her 17, she's 18, I was making her younger than she is. Thank you for that Naomi. But Katie Bolter also playing today, what's expected with that Naomi? Well she's up against Paolo Badosa who is the ninth seed. They've got the centre-court slot which is really exciting because I think a lot of people thinking this could be a big upset and

Bolter could take out the top 10 player in Badosa who's been really struggling with a bad back. She's been having to withdraw quite a lot through the year. She says she's back and she'll be fit enough to play. But yeah, it's been a really tough time for Badosa. In terms of the grass, it's not her favourite surface. We know that Bolta absolutely loves the grass. So things are set there for a potential upset. I'm thinking for Katie. And Molly, let me turn to you. I came back to that headline that I saw, you know, the strongest set since the 1980s. What happened in the in-between time of 2025 back to 1980? Why was there a bit of a dearth of British female players for a while?

I think that's a big question. I think what we do know is that being out Wimbledon, there's all this pressure that comes from being at this competition, all of this spotlight that comes, and I don't know if all the players have been able to kind of live up to that pressure over the years. There's been so many talented players but maybe like Naomi referred to earlier, no one's kind of made that breakthrough until we saw Emirati Karni do it on the women's side with the Brits and for a long time and I think having that belief, having players being able to see someone from their kind of cohort be able to do that has really changed the way maybe people talk about the kind of possibilities in this sport,

in this country in a big way. Yeah, I think to see them kind of breaking through at the moment, to see there be a group of them rather than just one or two, I think there's strength in those numbers as well. And it all combines for there to be this momentum, I guess, behind the British woman at the moment, where before maybe there wasn't that kind of sustained momentum all the time. What about you, Molly? I mean, do you remember any of those games or watching back in the 80s and thinking Joe Jury or Annabel Croft and Hobbs? I've got to be honest, I was not born back then.

That's what I thought maybe as I asked that question tentatively. I've obviously heard so much about what they did, but unfortunately couldn't see it all happen live. But yeah, so this is kind of the golden era that I'm getting to see in person. And I'm wondering, though, because they talked previously about, you know, this golden era for the men's game, right? And we had the same people, whether it was Federer, Nadal, Murray, Djokovic, and it seemed to bounce between them, to use a tennis analogy. Would you expect something like that in

the coming years? On the women's side of the game it's been a lot less predictable in the last 10-15 years. I mean even at Wimbledon the last eight editions of Wimbledon has seen eight different female champions so it's definitely been a lot more difficult to predict but but in the last couple of years, maybe three or four years, we've had a small group emerge in Coco Golf, Arena Salvo Lenca, Igor Svantec. They've emerged as kind of this leading pack

in women's tennis where before there would have been a lot of upsets, they're really being much more consistent. And so I think all the signs are leading to showing that that is the kind of the trend and what's going to happen and potentially they'll be able to keep up this kind of dominance of the sport, which maybe hadn't existed in women's tennis for a little while, for the past kind of generation or so. Apart from Serena Williams, obviously, we've got to say she obviously did dominate, but

she didn't ever have kind of a consistent rival I guess throughout her career. So it's really exciting to see someone like Koko Goff, Serena Sleblenko, we saw their final at the French Open which was just so kind of dramatic and had so much to say about it. I guess it would be really brilliant to see both of those two come up against each other in the final here, if they do as the top two seeds. That's so interesting. There is of course as well Naomi this pressure at Wimbledon which we're talking about but there's also this backdrop which we're hearing from a number of players about horrendous abuse that female players in particular are having to deal with online. Some may have heard as well of course about a stalker that Emma Raducanu had to deal with and there may be, I don't know, you tell me more security at Wimbledon this time for players. Is that a part of the conversation for a long time. It's something that I'm really proud of with the WTA

and what they do for women's sport. We have something called rookie hours. All teenage players have to go through rookie hours. And it's all about education, talking about even just not over-competing, making sure you rest. But of course, these sorts of interactions are a big part of it. And now, for the next generation coming through,

these teenagers that we will see, these British players like Mimi Hsu and Hannah Kluckman, part of those rookie hours is all going to be about this sort of abuse that you get on social media and how to manage it a bit better. We've heard Katie Bolter talking about it a lot recently. She's, of course, an older generation. She's in her late 20s, so maybe the education wasn't there as much for the youngsters.

But I feel pretty positive about the next generation being able to manage it much better because it is pretty intense and a lot of players get quite wrapped up in it and it really does impact them fairly significantly when they're in these incredible athletes in the biggest sport in the world for women. It's awesome to see. Because so much of, there's athleticism of course, but a lot of it as well, psychological on how you are on the pitch. And perhaps Naomi, you could tell us a little bit,

how do you think people are feeling today as they go out there into, I suppose, one of the most hallowed grounds of tennis? Yeah, I mean, excited, nervous, even the very, very top players in their first match of a tournament, they're just trying to get through it. They're just trying to find themselves. You're not quite sure what level you're going to bring. Are you going to be battling, trying to find your forehand, trying to feel good out there? Is it going to be a bit of a scrap or are you just going to hit the ground running and think, oh, I'm going to win the whole tournament, this is amazing, I'm playing great, who knows? I mean,

one big factor today and tomorrow is the heat. It is absolutely sweltering. We do actually have an extreme heat rule in place. If it does get too hot, play will be suspended. So we'll see whether that does come in. When does that come in? Because I was reading 34 degrees potentially today. Yes, which I think the heat rule would be coming in then. It's a combination of heat and humidity. It should come in around probably 31 degrees. For for example if you're in Melbourne with the dry heat at the Australian Open in January I think it's got to get up to 42 or something before it's come in but here it's you know we know what the heat is like when it gets past 30 so that's going to be a big big factor today as well. Naomi Cavaday former British player part of the BBC commentating team at Wimbledon this year have a great time and Molly McElwee, tennis journalist and author of a new women's tennis book

Building Champions. Thanks to both of them. I hope they have a great day. Now no surprise perhaps to learn in a new report from the Institute for Policy Research at the University of Bath that women continue to shoulder most of the care burden after childbirth. But what is new is that the Institute is calling on the UK government to introduce six weeks of well-paid paternity leave, arguing the move would promote gender equality, support working families and also boost economic growth. You might know since 2003, statutory paternity leave allows most new fathers and second parents in the UK to take up to two weeks off work but

this would be a big change what has been called for. I'm joined by the co-author of the report and economist Dr Joanna Clifton-Sprigg. Welcome. Good morning. Good to have you with us. Now why do you think six weeks of paternity leave is the way forward? I think it's the very first step that UK could take. It would be bringing us closer in line to what we're observing happening in European Union countries, what we've also seen work effectively in other countries that

introduced this type of reform prior to us. But also, it wouldn't require an overhaul of a current system as much as longer leave would. Because, for example, it would mean that we're proposing for that six weeks to be well paid and by that we mean 90% of average weekly earnings. This is what currently mothers get paid for the first six weeks of maternity leave. So if we went for anything longer than that, we would need to also think about reforming

maternity leave allowances. So for example, and we can get into some of the figures in a moment as well, Manny will think about shared parental leave. Why is that not the way to do it? Because some would think, do you really need two parents at home, for example, potentially instead of one? We're not, we think the current setup basically isn't working. And do you want to explain what the current setup is? Yes, of course.

So currently we have a suite of parental leave policies including the paternity leave, which you've already mentioned, plus shared parental leave, which entitles eligible working parents to share 50 out of the 52 weeks. Now there are many barriers in that particular policy including eligibility criterion as well as poor level of pay and effectively this hasn't been taken up. So we're 10 years into this particular policy and it hasn't really been used. I think in 2021-2022 about 13,000 people actually benefit from it. So we think that introducing an earmarked paternity leave, which can be taken flexibly, so not necessarily right after birth of the child,

within the first year of the child's life, will be more effective in encouraging sharing. And we're also proposing that this is then aligned with the shared parental leave, which should be retained to give opportunity to sharing longer than six weeks for those parents who are interested in it. But those first six weeks would be paid 90% the first six weeks that they take whenever they are after the baby's born or later on in the year paid at 90% of average earnings capped at £1,200 per week available from day one of employment and taken within that first year. Now some might say hang on capped at £1,200 per week that's a very high salary number one, but number two how could the government afford to pay something as high as that?

So firstly let me address the cap question. So the cap aligns with what has been already called for by a report from Joseph Rowntree Foundation. It also aligns with a cap more or less, it's slightly higher than the cap we have on child benefit in the UK at the moment. So at the moment you lose entitlement to that benefit at £60000 pounds a year. And it would exclude or it would prevent the top 8% of high earners, we think, that's our estimate, from receiving the 90% of their weekly earnings, they would receive the cap. But it would save some money. In terms of the- How would it save money?

The payments, if we were paying them 1200 a week rather than 90% of their wages, because they're high earners, they probably earn more than that. So in that sense, it does lower the cost of the parent leave payments. In terms of how the government is to afford it, that's not for me to decide, but we know that the government's called upon or promised to reform these policies within the first year in power. So we're coming up to that one year mark and we see a need for informed decision-making. So what we're aiming for in our report is to provide that evidence, numerical evidence

that they can base their review on. What is Mother's salary capped at? It's currently not capped. The payments at Maternity Leave are currently not capped. In that first six weeks? That's right. Okay. I want to read a little bit from the government spokesperson. This government, it says, is committed to making sure parents receive the best possible support to balance their work and home lives as part of our plan to make work pay. We know the parental leave system needs to be improved. We will be carrying out a review, as you mentioned there, to ensure

it best supports working families and through our employment rights bill we will be carrying out a review as you mentioned there, to ensure it best supports working families and through our Employment Rights Bill we will remove the 26-week continuity of service requirement for paternity leave, meaning that when you get the job you're then entitled to it whenever the baby comes. They are reviewing all the current parental leave entitlements but do you think that something like you are proposing will have recognition or indeed be endorsed or welcomed by the government? It's hard for me to judge, but I think what we're proposing is aligned with a number of proposals put forward by many campaigners. So there's definitely a movement in the society

towards that and there is a a movement in the society towards that and there is a need and preferences of working parents that would align with this proposal. So I think it's a sensible first step. I also think that anything longer than that should be our ambition but might not be feasible in the current environment, particularly given your question about the cost of the reform. And I know you say that it's not your job to come up with how they would fund it. However, you know, the realities pick up any paper and you'll see it whether it's about infrastructure, healthcare, childcare, that there's not money for some of those very pressing needs. I understand that, but I also think that if the government wants to deliver on its objective

of economic growth and 80% employment rate in the society, which are one of the manifestos they put forward, as well as evening out gender inequalities in the labour market, then parental leave policies, when designed and taken up, can be an effective tool here. And the current ones at the moment are not taken up, mostly because of the restrictive eligibility criteria and the financial barrier. And do you know that? That that is the barrier as to why people aren't taking it? You know, there may be, for example, culturally perhaps people haven't come along to it or that employers are not encouraging, and we're talking about dads here, to take up that leave? So this is evidence-based. So we have research from the UK showing that the financial constraints

and eligibility criteria are the major barriers for sharing shared parental leave. We already know as well that not all fathers are utilising paternity leave at the moment because of the statutory payment levels. But we've also drawn in this report on evidence from other countries of what helps increase take-up. And this is basically the level of pay. So if you pay 90 to 100% of wages, men take it. And I quite often get asked about Scandinavian countries, but Scandinavian countries have worked on this for 50 years. We could look at countries like Spain who in a matter of two decades have reformed from two weeks to 16 weeks earmarked leave.

1616 Yes, 16 weeks of earmarked paternity leave which Spanish fathers are actually taking and taking most of it. And are they getting 90% of wages or is there a figure there? They're getting 100% of wages during the 16 weeks. And I think that's, yes, this is what we know about how to encourage take-up and we then hope that take-up in particular, if some of that leave was taken solo, would then help us help women return to workplace. Do you have any recommendations? I know you're working with fathers, but same-sex couples, for example?

So in the report we refer to fathers, but this would basically also, we would have a vision that the second parent would be entitled. So in same-sex couples, I guess there has to be a definition of who's going to take the primary care. You might enjoy some of these Joanna. I just asked our listeners, you know, for their thoughts on paternity leave, whether they took it, whether they did, whether they didn't, why, why, why. The first one that just comes up in front of me is how useful are fathers

really when they're on paternity leave? My ex-husband wore earplugs and slept in the spare room on the first night our baby came home and then played golf two weeks after. I will reiterate, it says ex-husband. Another one, my wife had a C section. I was taken ill into hospital with sepsis four days later and spent ten days in hospital. My two weeks paternity leave was spent looking after our baby at home and shuttling back and forth between the hospital. Luckily I

work in education and my two weeks coincided with the end of term so I had a few more weeks of Easter recess to be at home and help my wife back to health. Paternity leave in this country is ridiculous, my wife is Swedish, so she can't understand why it's so low. That's from Ean and Lisa and baby Elliot, glad Lisa is well. My son is just finishing his 18 weeks of fully paid paternity leave. It has been a wonderful time for him and his wife to begin life with their first baby son. Luckily his employer is able to manage these absences. Smaller employers may find it impossible. What about smaller employers? I think all of these comments represent the views in

society and they're all very well founded. It will be costly to employers. A reform of this kind is always costly. We know that majority of the cost will be due to reorganisation. So if you can picture fathers taking four more extra weeks of leave, even it's in chunks a bit more like annual leave rather than in one go in six weeks there will be a need for rearranging of how the company and the business is functioning and that's not without the cost and I think here is a space for the government to think about providing support particularly to small and medium businesses who might not be offering anything beyond statutory at the moment. Some more it's very important to point out that paternity leave is not just for

fathers as they put it in inverted commas. I'm in the same-sex marriage with two children. My wife took paternity leave, shared parental leave and is on the birth certificate of both our children. I do think I would have benefited from my wife having longer paternity leave. We have a small family and limited support. I found the first month is so very difficult after a second and I was still in a lot of pain until approximately eight weeks after birth and that is Joe. And another one, my partner had six months paternity leave with both our children. It was a huge help to me. He works in an insurance firm.

It meant we could do things as a family and the pressure wasn't all on me as the mother. When my son was in hospital after being born premature my partner was able to be there with me. Under the two week system, my son wouldn't have been home from hospital and his dad would have had to have gone back to work. With his time off, we were able to bond as a family and recover from our traumatic birth experience. So some of the stories. Have you heard these stories before? Perhaps? Yes, I have heard a whole array of stories. Indeed, I think the two weeks just doesn't cut it for so many families for a variety of reasons. And I think the policy, if we're doing

the reform, if we're serious about this reform, we should think about it being inclusive. So really consider who the working parents and working households in the UK are, what are their needs and preferences, but also indeed cases that might be medical cases for example where longer leave is required. I know some of this is being addressed through the employment rights bill, but perhaps not everything. One more, what about self-employed? So currently they're not being eligible for this and that should be reviewed as well. In fact currently it's even when they're employed they're only eligible

after continuous employment as you mentioned earlier. Is that anything that's on the horizon? Politically I'm not sure but it should be considered. I think there have been some calls from other organizations to create something akin maternity allowance for the self-employed perhaps. Dr Joanna Clifton-Sprigg, thanks very much for her report out today. She is the co-author on when it comes to paternity leave. Lots of comments coming in as well, keep them coming, I'll keep reading them. 84844 if you'd like to get in touch. Also, perhaps you'd like to get in touch for listener week.

I'd like to know what topics would you like us to cover on the programme. Last year we covered subjects as diverse as finding out your dad isn't your real dad to pets as therapy. Do you have a burning issue that you'd like us to cover? We're also keen to hear your fun ideas as well. Same text number 84844 on social media it's at BBC womans hour or you can email us through our website. I'm looking forward to hearing what you come up with, looking forward to meeting some of you and presenting them as well.

That's all happening in August, but we need your ideas in now. She was the epitome of elegance. She was the epitome of mystery, intrigue, and beauty. One of the 20th century's most amazing characters, a Hollywood sex symbol whose story you might think you already know. Hetty Lamarr, the film star. But there's another side to her story. She was an inventor at heart. Her scientific contribution no other star has been able to match.

We really should put her into the limelight she deserves. From the BBC World Service, Untold Legends, Hetty Lamarr. Listen now wherever you get your BBC podcasts. Right, I want to turn back to Sudan. Two years ago, it was thrown into disarray when its army and a powerful paramilitary group began a vicious struggle for power. its army and a powerful paramilitary group began a vicious struggle for power. The war continues to this day and it has claimed more than 150,000 lives. There are millions displaced. At the heart of it are two generals, Abdel Fattah al-Burhan, the leader of the Sudanese Armed Forces or the SAF, and Mohammed Hamdan Degalo, better known as Hamedi, who is the head of the paramilitary rapid support forces or the RSF.

Now, this is a country that has been in turmoil for many years, particularly since 2019, when Omar al-Bashir, who was president for 30 years, was overthrown by the military. That was amid a backdrop of huge protests by ordinary Sudanese people. And as that drama was unfolding, the French-Tunisian documentary maker Hind Medeb flew to Sudan to film a sit-in protest at Khartoum. People were demanding reform there. She met a group of young activists, many of them young women wanting to break free of a patriarchal society and she filmed them over the course of four years, capturing the hope and accomplishment of Al-Bashir's fall to the oppression of the military crackdown and the subsequent, which is continuing, civil war.

Hind joins me now in studio to talk about our latest film Sudan Remember Us. We also have Yusra El-Baghir, Sky News' Africa correspondent, who is from Sudan and was out reporting in her country at the time of those protests in 2019. You're both very welcome. Good morning. Thanks for having us. Good morning. Good to have you with us. Good morning. Good to have you with us. Well, Hind, let me begin with you. Why did you go to that sit-in protest that was at the army headquarters in Khartoum?

First of all, I have to say that I was born and raised in France, but I'm African. My mother is from Morocco and Algeria and my father is from Tunisia. That's maybe one of the reasons why I went. But the real reason I went there is because my previous film, Paris Stalingrad, it was a movie where I was doing a portrait of Suleiman. He was a young poet, 17 years old, arriving from Darfur in France, in exile. And when I shot this film, I became friends with a lot of Sudanese people who were like sleeping in the streets because France is not respecting human rights in terms of asylum, when you apply for asylum, it's really terrible.

So I did a movie about that, all the dysfunction that we have in France with asylum, and I became very close friends with a lot of Sudanese political refugees. And so when the revolution started in Sudan, I was with them, and they were very frustrated. They couldn't go back because they risked their life. They were going to Libya, almost dying many times until they arrived to Europe. So it was impossible for them to go back like this. And they were in the middle of making papers.

So they literally asked me to go to Sudan and bring back images of their revolution. And I must say that this film, I'm not like a war reporter. This film is really a story of friendship. And then when I arrived in Sudan, I made new friends. And the people in the film are not only people I'm following, they are friends of mine and I'm still in contact daily with them. And we will come to that. It is very, I suppose, reflective of the culture. And I mean that literally, the songs, the poems, the chants that was

all taking place among that time and we'll come back to it. But Yusra, you were there in 2019. I read a beautiful, very harrowing piece that you have written for the Times about going back after your family home had been ransacked. But what do you remember of the uprising at that time in 2019? The revolution was a reintroduction for all of us. It was us showing the world who we are beyond the conflict, beyond turmoil, beyond political strife. The people that were protesting had lived under Amar al-Bashid, the dictator they were ousting their whole lives, 30 years.

And it was just a moment of hope and change and people standing up and ousting that dictator. And that was the moment I think where we felt like the world can finally see who Sudanese people are, singing, dancing, poetry. The sit-in was this incredible microcosm. It was everyone from all over the country. How many people were we talking about? It was honestly tens of thousands. On people that actually stayed and slept there, hundreds, and they'd have these, it was like encampments.

So it'd be a tent that was a women's union from Darfur next to a tent from a farmer's union from the east of the country. And there'd be these workshops and you'd walk over and you'd see an activist, a civil society activist holding court with people talking to them about coexistence, about equality. People were listening and that was what was so threatening. The first, you know, after Bashir was ousted, the first days, Burhan and Hammad T had taken over. The two generals that are fighting at the moment, yeah. And they were telling people, leave so we can clean the streets.

Like trying to coax them into leaving this sit-in in front of the military HQ. And they were saying, you clean the government of Islamists and we'll clean the streets. And people were just sweeping, being like, we're not going anywhere. And that was, it was just such perseverance. And what was so beautiful about the film Hind is that you captured that moment so incredibly. It was just, it was magical. Because I think what is different or what was different at that time from some of the other uprisings that we have seen, particularly where a long-standing leader has been toppled, we usually just see men

on film or in the picture. And with yours there are young men and there are young women and they're even chanting to one another and singing to another with revolutionary songs or poetry, whatever it might be. Some said that you could even potentially, and I'll start with you Yusra, describe what happened as a feminist revolution. I mean women were up front. They were on the front lines. They were at the center of it, especially doctors.

I mean they would be out there treating people. At the sit-in site it was Ramadan for the second half of it and all the women were cooking and dishing out food and the men were cooking as well and everyone was there but I think at the heart of it there was this sense of just this thrust from the women in the country that had been subjugated for so long that felt the injustice so viscerally in their bodies. So with this moment, which you've painted the picture both of you, of this hope really and optimism, but there was then what was called a massacre in Sudan on the 3rd of June 2019 where over

at least a hundred pro-democracy protesters were killed and I think that was a very dark day that still has ramifications now. But do you think, for example, and did you feel that coming? You know, you cover it all within your film, but I know you are trying to get across the hope, but I feel there is still tentacles really from that day that continue until 2025. When I went to Sudan, I took a one wayway ticket and I was thinking I'm gonna film until Until it's free elections. Really. I wanted to stay for a very long time But it's true

We were seeing it we would never imagine that the massacre of the 3rd of June would happen like it happened And especially it was happening the day of the head which means it's like Christmas Day for British people. For each. So it's a day of normally it's the end of the Ramadan, normally it's a peaceful day, it's a very important day for the people. And I think the military they chose that day because they knew that the young people who have from good families they will go back home so they don't kill the children of the generals because among the people who were

protesting there was also people from the families of these horrible people who were killing all over the country. And so they knew that only the homeless, the very poor people, the people coming from other states, mostly these people are going to be there that day and that's why they chose this date. Yes, we were seeing it coming because from the day I arrived, I arrived on the 16th of May, so only two weeks before the massacre, we were seeing more and more people from Darfur coming, the militias, with heavy weapons and these trucks, they call it Thatcher, and with heavy weapons behind, Kalashnikov, and they

were all around the city. And one day I went to change some money at the Souq al-Arabi, and I saw that the place where normally there is the buses, it was full of the militias, like this, like it was incredible. And we were like wondering why these people are coming, because they were preparing the massacre. And I mean, with that, or your characterization of what happened and why that happened, of course, is your view that you put across in the film of why it happened on Eid, for example.

But with that, there is no question that it was a horrendous day for Sudan. But I'm even wondering, Yusra, as you look back, we're in 2025 now, I find it difficult to believe that so many years have passed. How do you see the situation now? Because, I mean, I've talked about, for example, the millions that were displaced, there are different figures, whether it's 12, 13 million or some say even half of the 45 million within the country. We do know as well 150,000, for example, that have died. But it doesn't seem to grab the headlines in the same way that other conflicts

do. Why do you think that is? I think there's a lot of apathy towards conflicts in black African countries. I think there's also a sense of compassion fatigue for African struggles. You know, you need a mass casualty event from the continent to even break through the headlines in the Western world. But I also think that, again, it goes back to this idea that Sudan, having had such a long civil war between the North and the South, and then having the conflict in Darfur in the early 2000s, that there's this fate that we should be resigned to, that

conflict is just a part of our story. And that's where the revolution was really important to show that it wasn't a part of our story. It was something that had been inflicted on people in Sudan. And the Sitin massacre, I am of the strong opinion, laid the groundwork for this war. The impunity that came after the massacre where over a hundred people killed, people missing, women raped. That is what showed those generals that they can do what they want. And it was the first time

it was happening in Khartoum because the massacre of 3rd of June was happening every day in Darfur since years and years. Yes, which many people... And I know that people of Darfur, they were like, look, they were talking to the people of Khartoum. Now you understand what we are experiencing since years and years. But the reason why the media don't talk about so much about the war in Sudan and it's because they don't explain, they don't explain the reasons of this war. If you want to engage the audience you have to explain why. If you just say how many people died and how many people

are displaced, it's not interesting to the people. And I think it is a very complex story which is why I outlined. It's a story of a stolen country. It is a complex story, I think for the average person who's coming to it who doesn't have a grounding, for example, in the politics or the history of that part of the world, it does take a little bit of time to explain. Not to say that it cannot be done, it is something I've done extensively on the BBC, whether it's here on Woman's Error, we've covered it many times and indeed I have on the World Service. But I take your point that you feel it is not always done to the depth that you might like in all media.

No, it's not the depth. I'm sorry you're saying it's complex but it's not that complex. This is a story, that's why I made this movie. I wanted to show who the Sudanese people are because the reason of the war is to destroy the civil society that you see in my movie, this beautiful civil society who wants democracy. The Madaniya, it comes from the word Madani, who means citizen. So Madaniya is in Arabic the same word as democracy. It's like power to the people. And this is the story of people reclaiming their country that has been stolen for so many years. I understand that, but I think even... Stolen by who? Stolen by the countries around? And this is the story of people reclaiming their country that has been stolen for so many years.

I understand that, but I think even... Stolen by who? Stolen by the countries around? Hint, hint. Listen to me for a moment because we're trying to have a conversation here. Yeah, but I'm trying to tell you why this is wrong. No, I understand that and you are getting your point across, but I think to deny that people may not have known about Dauphor, you have young generations that are coming up, for example. You, sir, you would have come up across this when you're describing this story. I don't think it's, I don't think you can simplify it in two lines.

No, I think I can understand the frustration because the humanity is what should break through and people shouldn't have to explain or justify their humanity. I mean, war is war, you know, and conflict is brutal and bloody everywhere. And so I think when someone like Hind who's been so immersed in Sudan and has been living so closely with young people who are yelling, they feel like into the void, I think, you know, the voices should be enough. The people saying we're suffering should be enough. I think that at the end of the day, greed, bloodlust, these are things, these are human themes we see everywhere.

And let us come back to the humans that you met there, particularly following them over these years. A number of them have had to leave. Yeah, and one of them came back, Khattab, and he decided to go back and to fight on the side of the army because like a lot of young revolutionary They had this idea that if they're not part of the war they will not have a word to say when peace come back But I'm sorry. Let me come back to the reason of the war the reason of the war is that Sudan is a very rich country Mm-hmm, and it has like a very rich

Agriculture the land is very rich So there is a lot of land grabbing, especially coming from the Emirates and the Saudis. And so there is a kind of new colonization of the country. And we are going to a partition of the country. And very recently, the Sudanese community abroad, they were accusing Emirates for complicity of genocide in the international court of Den Haag.

And I think it's very important to talk about that because today America said it's going to cut the, there is sanctions against the army. And I don't understand if there is sanctions against the army. Why there is not sanctions against the paramilitary? Because we have the proof that they are killing everyday people and doing ethnic cleansing just to own the land. And also there is gold. On the Hindu we're going to have to come to the end of the item but I do want to let

people know as well as sparking major displacement both sides in the conflict have been accused of war crimes and there is that latest development that Hind mentions there when it comes to sanctions by the United States. But it's not the last time we'll speak about Sudan. We shall talk about it more. Hind's documentary is called Sudan Remember Us. Thanks very much to you Hind Medeb and we also had Yusra El Bagheer, Sky News' Africa correspondent also in studio. Thanks to you both. Thank you. Now if you are on your way back from Glastonbury and are missing it already or maybe you just

missed Anita live from Worthy Farm, on Friday, you can catch up with our special programme on BBC Sounds. We heard from the musician, songwriter and actress Rebecca Lucy Taylor. Yes, that's self-esteem. She won the 2021 BBC Music Introducing Artist of the Year award and achieved a nomination for the Mercury Prize in 2022. She told Anita about the meaning behind her song, The Curse, from her new album, A Complicated Woman. It's a song I wrote about sort of alcohol and vices, I suppose, anything you do that isn't amazing for you.

But it helps, right? And it works. And it's quite a hard song to write because I feel like in society we've fed a sort of sobriety is, you know, the right thing to do and absolutely what you should be doing. Or like, cheers, we, here's the weekend, let's go kind of thing. And there's no middle ground. And I think that's why, you know, I've certainly struggled with it over the years to find moderation and a middle ground because there is none. So it's a song about trying to figure that out, which does not sound like a big pop song, but I think it is.

But how cathartic, how wonderful was it to be able to get those words out when you were recording it? I think I saw a clip on Instagram of the backing singers in a studio, the choir singing the chorus, gospel choir as well, immense. It's wonderful. Like it's still, I struggle with a lot of things in the job and certainly the bigger it gets and the more sort of visible I get, the more stressful some of it is. But then there's those moments where you've had something in your head and you get it out and then it's to fruition. That's like the best feeling in the world.

You are fame, success, Mercury Prize nominations, Brit Award nominations, you know, Madonna comes to see you and yet you said that there's so much more that you feel you need to change and actually you're almost exposed to more of the complications and the pressures. I don't want to be someone that just sits and complains about the music industry but it's so broken at the top in terms of like no one makes any money from the music. I'm trying to redefine it for myself so I can carry on doing it for 10 more years or 20 more years. I can't do the model that it that we have all been put through in terms of how you grow your, your business, essentially, your artistry,

you have to grow, everyone has to grow, you have to go to America, have to try and break America and it, you know, with not a lot of care about like like what that would do for you and your body and your health. So I'm trying to do it differently and then I'm hoping if it goes well then some other people that don't want to do it like everyone else does it can see this like a different way. Well, if you missed it, you need to listen back and BBC Sounds is the way to do it. It was just last Friday's program, Self-Esteem. Speaking to Woman's Hour Hour Anita Rani. Now let us talk a little bit more about the summer of sport. We started talking about Wimbledon and tennis, that got you excited. We have more to talk about. The Women's Euros start this week with teams from both England and Wales taking part. The Lionesses,

yes we all know, won the Euros in 2022 and there was a lot made about the number of openly lesbian players on both the England squad and across other teams. It's in direct contrast as you probably know with the men's game where there isn't an openly gay player in the English Premier League. So we want to talk about that culture of women's football that leads to openness and we also want to talk about a new graphic novel called Flory, a football love story. Anna Trench tells the story of the groundbreaking women footballers from the end of the First World War and highlights the pioneering lesbian players of the past. Anna's with me in

studio. We're also joined by Dr. Rachel Bullingham who is senior lecturer of sports and exercise at the University of Leicester. Good to have both of you with us this morning. I loved this book. Oh thank you so much. I loved it. Now I saw somebody called it, I was mentioning this at the beginning, a love letter to the women who played, cheered and fought for the right to belong on the pitch and to the families who keep their stories alive. Oh wow that's really lovely to hear. So it's Flori is the main character who falls in love with a French footballer, Vivienne, and this love story across the miles.

Tell me a little bit about how it came to you because it's kind of it's graphic novel, I should say, just to put it in a small book that I flew through yesterday and loved and told through the eyes of a grandniece that finds belongings. Yeah, I suppose. So there's Flori's grandniece discovers in the attic these football boots and photos and love letters that reveal this incredible history of women's football and her great aunt's part in it. And we then go into Flori's story and she joined this football team, I set it in North Norfolk, but they actually play against some of the top teams at the time and we're talking sort of after the Second World War, First World War sorry, when it was huge, really really big and and then leading up to the ban in 1921 and the kind of devastating consequences of that for these

women. So Flourie joins this team and she gets totally swept away and she has these amazing experiences both in England and France and she makes friends and she really feels that joy and liberation on the pitch that I also you know I play football so I've really felt that too. And yeah she falls in love with this other player. She's from a French team. She's called Vivian and I guess I wanted to tell the story of Florey's love for football and her love for another player who shares that that joy and that wonderful experience with her Why did you put it in a graphic novel? I

I really love I love words and pictures. I love drawing. I love writing. I've always done the two together And for me, it just makes so much sense in terms of storytelling I love words and pictures, I love drawing, I love writing, I've always done the two together. And for me, it just makes so much sense in terms of storytelling. Sometimes the words take a lead, sometimes the drawings do. And you can do, I think, really special things with pacing and with details.

And it just, yeah, made so much sense. I was also sort of thinking actually about football being this visual thing, you know, we watch it. And so maybe there's something about showing that movement on the page as well that works quite nicely, nicely with drawings. I also, you know, I always do it in black and white. I wanted to reflect the period of the 1920s in which it's set.

Did you rely or how did you get your research material photographs because there's a lot of little images that stay with me from your book after reading it. Do you know what I really loved doing the research actually yeah I got really into it from working out what what football boots they'd have worn at that time these really heavy football boots and then the berets the the Parisian teams wore berets which I loved. What the trains that they traveled on and the coats that the women would have worn. There's actually quite a lot of photographs and even video footage of teams playing at the time, which I found completely extraordinary to watch and

incredibly moving actually. A lot of people know about this match on Boxing Day in 1920 when Dick Her Ladys played St. Helens. Which were a huge team, Dick Her Ladys. Absolutely. And a lot of the teams I mentioned in Florrie were real teams. They've got great names and Dick Her Ladys actually went on a tour of America. But this match on Boxing Day had 53,000 people there with 15,000 more at the gates. And there's pictures of these matches and it's just so incredible to see the players, the joy on their faces, their muddy knees and these huge crowds loving watching them. But after the FA banned women playing in 1921 they had to

be covert about their playing and they were already, for some that you are describing, this one player, Lily for example, based on Lily Parr, is it? Well no, she's not directly based on Lily Parr at all but Lily Parr was definitely someone I had in my mind, you know, an inspiration. When you look at the team sheets of the time, the names that often come up were Lily, Alice and Flurry, they're very much the names of that period but they were actually real players, there was Flurry, Red Lily, Alice and Flurry. They're very much the names of that period. But they were actually real players. There was Flurry, Redford, Alice, Kel, Lily Parr,

who were real pioneers. And so I did want a nod to them, definitely. And I mentioned Lily Parr because she was seen as one of the first gay footballers, which is like the covert part, perhaps, of the sexuality, as you can imagine at the time. But I want to bring in Rachel here because Anna's depicting other lesbian footballers in the book as well. In women's football, there are a number of

players that are openly gay. There was a famous moment in 2019, we're talking about 2019 quite a bit today, the FIFA Women's World Cup when the captain of the US champions Megan Rapinoe, of course very famous, she ran to the sidelines and she kissed her long-term girlfriend. Why do you think it is such a welcoming space in a way that the men's game is not, Rachel? Yeah, firstly, thanks for having me on. I think it's a really interesting topic and it certainly is seen as a really inclusive game now. We're going to the Euros, as you said, to start this week. Nearly 20% of players are either openly lesbian, gay or queer. And as already has been mentioned, Lily Parr was one of the kind of groundbreaking players and was very open about her relationship. But there's been a kind of ebb and flow in that inclusivity, certainly kind of in the 1980s, things were not as inclusive as they potentially are now. And so we've seen this

real shift from the kind of 1920s when Lily Parr was able to talk about having a female partner and then things kind of went downhill a little bit in terms of inclusivity. And we now seem to be really celebrating the inclusivity of the women's game which is fantastic and seeing that players are able to come out publicly if they want to. But also that idea that some players are coming out in a way that has not been seen before. So for example, it's not a big deal anymore, there's not this kind of big celebration or big event. They come out quietly really potentially just by posting pictures on their social media which shows the level of inclusivity in the game. It's not this big event as it is in the men's game when a player announces

that they are gay. And I suppose it is something that so many women, as we know, played part time. You know what I mean? They were not put on this professional track from the get go compared to the men's game for many, many years. Do you think that's part of it? Yeah, there's certainly that element of professionalism at play. We saw it in tennis for the women, you know, when Navros Lover and King came out in the 1980s and they lost all their sponsorship. And, you if you're looking at Canary in a coal mine and you see

people do that and that it goes horribly wrong, you're not, you're going to stay hidden. And I think that that has helped the women's game, that, you know, they have been able to be themselves without that kind of scrutiny at the same level of the men's game. However, things are changing now, you know, that we're getting more and more people watching it, more and more people going to games. So it'll be interesting to see how that shifts over time with the popularity of the women's game growing exponentially. Because your PhD, as I understand it, looked at how openly lesbian athletes navigate team

sport. What did you find? Top lines? Top lines. I found that it was really inclusive. I covered a variety of sports and I found that athletes were having a really positive experience, much more positive than had ever been found in research before. They were coming out in a quiet way that they hadn't done before, where it had been a big statement. They were really supported by their teammates, their partners were really welcome at social events and all in all it showed that things have moved on since the 1980s and 1990s where the vast majority of the research had been beforehand. And we're talking about women here as well but I'm just curious Rachel whether you see any way there could be inroads into the men's game for it to be more open?

Yeah I really hope so. I think often the men's game people are hit up on the fact that there are no openly gay footballers in the Premier League and actually they forget about the positive elements, you know, they forget about the allyship that male players have shown certainly recently. Harry Kane's really vocal in his allyship, so we can see that things are starting to shift within that. We also know that there's been research done on things like chanting, and we know that the chanting in the men's game isn't necessarily homophobic in nature, in the ways that the spectators are wanting it to be homophobic,

they are just doing anything they can for their team to win. So they want to put off the opposition. But if you talk to those spectators making those homophobic chants, they don't deem it homophobic, which is really interesting. So we're seeing much more inclusivity from spectators, even though the chanting that comes out might not be deemed in that way. And I would really hope that there is going to be an openly gay player soon, so to be quite honest we can stop talking about it and people can move on and see how inclusive sport is. Very briefly, do you think we will? I hope so. In short term? I wouldn't know in the short term, but I

think if a player did come out, hopefully Tom Daley has certainly been a very influential on players coming out and hopefully a player will feel confident enough to do so. I wouldn't be surprised if it was more than one to try and take their spotlight, take the heat off and I wouldn't be surprised at all. Dr Rachel Bullingham, thank you so much and also to Anna Trench with her lovely new graphic novel that's called Flory, a football love story. Euros getting going, enjoy it both ladies as I will be as well. I do want to let you know on Wednesday's program we'll be marking the start of the Euros with the DJ, the

author, the podcaster Annie McManus, also footballer. And join me tomorrow where I'll be speaking to the star of the new film, Hot Milk. It's a hot day. I'm going to watch Hot Milk. It is the Irish actor Fiona Shaw that you might know from Bad Sisters, Killing Eve, True Detective, so many, so many amazing roles. I'm really looking forward to speaking to her. So you won't want to miss that as well. Thank you all so very much for your messages that have continued to come in on paternity leave.

I realize it's something that has touched a nerve. 84844 if you want to get in touch and that includes your wonderful ideas for listeners week. I'll see you tomorrow. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. life events of pregnancy, birth and the first 12 months tell us a lot about ourselves, our society and where we might be heading. The brain of a baby holds the secrets to the origins of human thought, mothers undergo transformations we are only just comprehending, and the way attitudes to birth change affects every single one of us. Listen on BBC Sounds. But there's another side to her story. She was an inventor at heart. Her scientific contribution, no other star has been able to match.

We really should put her into the limelight she deserves. From the BBC World Service, Untold Legends, Hedy Lamarr. Listen now wherever you get your BBC podcasts.