Woman's Hour - Patricia Lockwood, SEND rally, Maternity review, Kathrine Switzer

Episode Date: September 15, 2025

Patricia Lockwood is a poet, memoirist and novelist whose work straddles the literary world and the wilds of the internet. Patricia first went viral with her traumatic poem Rape Joke, while her memoir Priestdaddy, about being the daughter of a Catholic priest, has been called a modern classic. Patricia talks to Nuala McGovern about her new book, Will There Ever Be Another You, which explores the surreal disorientation of illness, memory and recovery in the wake of Covid. The list of hospital trusts that will be looked at as part of a rapid review of maternity care in England have just been announced. This is part of an independent, national, investigation into harm to hundreds of babies, that might have been prevented with better maternity care. However some of the families, whose cases will be part of it, have expressed concerns about its scope. Nuala is joined by BBC Social Affairs Correspondent Michael Buchanan to find out more about this review. Parents of children with Special Educational Needs and Disabilities (SEND) are heading to Westminster today. They are taking part in what they are calling a ‘Day of Action,' organised by parent support groups, which includes a rally at Parliament Square, MP drop-ins and a Parliamentary debate on SEND children’s rights. 18-year-old Katie Nellist, who has autism and struggled to attend school, will be giving a speech at the rally. Katie and her mother Ruth tell Nuala why they are taking part in this 'Day of Action'. The BBC Eye documentary and podcast called Death in Dubai has identified a former London bus driver running a sex ring exploiting young vulnerable Ugandan women. The programme has been told that hundreds of women are going to Dubai from Uganda, seeking their fortunes and ending up in sex work. Two of the women have died falling from tower blocks in Dubai. Nuala talks to the BBC Eye producer and reporter Runako Celina, who has spent two and a half years investigating this story. Kathrine Switzer was the first female to officially run the Boston marathon back in 1967, at that time considered a men’s-only race. However a race official tried to stop her mid-event when they discovered she was a woman. She went on to complete the course and she’s dedicated her life to enabling women to participate in the sport. Now in her late 70s, she’s run 42 marathons and is the co-founder of 261 Fearless, that aims to empower women through running. Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Andrea Kidd

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Your idea of banking that's personal happens here. RBC, ideas happen here. BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Neula McGovern, and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. Hello, and welcome to the program. Well, coming up, we'll hear an update on the rapid review of maternity care in England. Also today, why some families of children would send in? in England are making today a day of action.

We meet the first woman to officially run the Boston Marathon, Catherine Switzer. She's going to reflect on that dramatic day in 1967 when they tried to force her out of the race. Also, why she hasn't hung up her trainers yet at the age of 78. We're going to bring you the latest investigation from the BBC I team. It's called Death in Dubai. We're going to hear how some Ugandan women were tricked into going to the UAE, with tragic consequences. Also, we'll have Patricia Lockwood on her new novel.

It's called Will There Ever Be Another You? Although, rather than a novel, she would prefer to call it a pineapple or a chandelier. I'll get Patricia to explain why. If you'd like to get in touch with the program during the hour, the number is 84844 on social media. We're at BBC Woman's Hour. Or you can email us through our website. For a WhatsApp message or voice note, the number is 03-700.

100444. But as you've just been hearing in the news bulletin, the list of hospital trusts that will be looked at as part of a rapid review of maternity care in England has just been announced. Now this is part of an independent national investigation into the harm to hundreds of babies that might have been prevented with better maternity care. The investigation you might remember was announced in June 2025 by Health and Social Care Secretary West Treating, and it will be chaired by Labour peer Baroness Valerie Amos. However, some of the families whose cases will be part of it

have expressed concerns about its scope. The BBC's social affairs correspondent Michael Buchanan is back with me. Thanks very much Michael for joining us this morning. So the names of the trusts have been announced. It is a long list. What did you first think looking at it?

I think that the Department of Health believe that these 14 trusts which ranged from Blackpool in the north of England down to your in the southwest and sort of if you like taking a sway through the Midlands and go down to the south coast. They believe that this allows them to get a geographical spread and it also allows them to get a demographic spread. They want to look at the impact of deprivation and in particular Baroness Amos said she wanted to have a look at why the outcomes for black and Asian women

in particular are so much poorer than they are for white women and some of the some of the trusts on this list certainly should allow them to do that. There is a chunk of England, if you like, around the northwest, down through Yorkshire, you know, and one or two bits on the East Coast as well, that haven't been, that aren't going to be looked at in depth as part of this rapid review of particular trust, but the Department of Health, when I spoke to them about half an hour ago, said they were happy that the trust they had chosen would allow them to do the work that needed to be done. So there are 14 in total.

some may have caught an interview Baroness Amos gave to the today program this morning about her planned work. Here's a little of where she stresses how much work is already been done in the area. There have been so many investigations and reviews before this. There is a major investigation going on now in Nottingham, looking at a range of issues, but including looking at the cases of a number of families. Obviously, I will liaise with that investigation, although it is not expected to report until June. I want to make sure that the systems and processes are in place

that enable the families to get the justice that they want and that they deserve. What we have now is completely, How we have got to a situation where so many trusts have been investigated, where we have hundreds of recommendations, and yet still, the Secretary of State has had to ask me to look again so that we pull together a set of national recommendations, which he, with a task force that he is putting in place, that will have experts and families and campaigners on it, that they can then ensure that those recommendations are implemented. There sounds to be a level of frustration there when I listen to Baroness Amos that this is still taking place. It's almost like a review of all the reviews.

It is. And there's frustration across the board. There's frustration in government. There's frustration amongst the families. There's frustration amongst some of the people who've carried out these reviews that we are where we are. And where we are is, you know, to put one brief moment of course, context into all of this. The two baby

loss charity, Sands and Tommies, reckon that in 2022-23 the lives of over 800 babies could have been saved had they been provided with good maternity care. So when you look and listen to all of this, that's the context for this. And the first inquiry into a

particular trust in Morkan Bay, it reported 10 years ago, 2015. We've had East Kent since then, we've had Shrewsbury and Telford since then. We're going to have Nottingham, which is the largest ever. which is due to the publish, as she said, next summer. So that is the frustration that there are over 700 recommendations of different inquiries within the maternity system

and why can't they see sustained improvement. And so would that be the end result? It appears to be somewhat from listening to Barnus Amos, some sort of streamlined, manageable list of recommendations that could be applied across? That could be applied across and applied across quite quickly as well. because they don't want to have to continue to go back to this problem at all. They want, after she reports, which will probably be in the spring,

there will be interim recommendations published in December. We've got the Nottingham review coming in June. And the government will severely, will be desperate to hope that that will lead to sustained and meaningful improvements in maternity care and that all these recommendations can be boiled down to perhaps three, four, or a handful of recommendations that can be implemented. And crucially, that the centre, whether that the Department of, of health or the regulators that they actually focus on them

and ensure they are implemented because that has been one of the problems so far. We've heard previously from the Maternity Safety Alliance. They're sceptical of what this review of reviews, Barna Samos' investigation can really achieve. But do they represent all the families that are affected? No, they don't. They represent a good number of families

covering a range of thrusts across England, and families who have been harmed by poor maternity care. And as you say, they believe that this review is not fit for purpose. They don't think it'll achieve the goals that West Streeting had set out for it. They feel that their advice has not been taken on board. And in some of the languages they've used, they've described themselves as feeling both betrayed and used. However, there are a range of options,

there are a range of voices in this area. And a number of other families are very much looking forward to working with Baroness Amos. they think that this is a necessary and brave first step. They think it does have the potential to provide steps to improve maternity care. And listening to some of the voices from both those perspectives, I try and step back and think the only thing that these families have in common, if you like, is that they were harmed by maternity care. And the fact that they have a number of views as to how to get to better maternity care

is not surprising because they all have individual stories to tell. I suppose listening to them, and I try and listen to us, many of them as I possibly can. There are some sharp exchanges now between some of these families in terms of how they conduct themselves and what they say about another group of people that don't necessarily

agree with them and that's kind of difficult to hear. But it's understandable as well because for a lot of them, they've been trying to get the system to improve for so long and they feel that they haven't been listened to and that people just don't respect what they have to say. After going through such traumatic

experiences, Michael, thank you. so much for coming in. Michael's been covering this of course for the BBC and we'll speak to you again. Michael Buchanan the BBC Social Affairs correspondent. Also happening today, parents of children with special educational needs

and disabilities, Send are heading to Westminster. They're taking part in what they're calling a day of action which includes a rally at Parliament Square MP drop-ins and a parliamentary debate on Send Children's Rights. Send is the system in England that provides support for children and

young people with learning difficulties or disabilities. And the day of action has been organised by parents' support groups, Let Us Learn 2 and the Send Sanctuary UK. It's all taking place ahead of the government's send reform announcement, which is expected this autumn. I know autumn spans a number of weeks and months. My next guest, you might be familiar with them already. 18-year-old Katie Nellist will be giving a speech at the rally

alongside other guests such as the Liberal Democrat leader Ed Davy. Katie is autism. She has struggled to attend school. She has been one of our star guests at the Women's Hour Send special last September. My goodness, a year ago already. We also had Katie in during the year after she'd given evidence at the Education Committee inquiry that was looking into how to solve the send crisis. Katie is here, along with her mum, Ruth Nellis.

Before they head out to Westminster, good morning. Good morning. Thank you for having us. Thank you for coming back into us. let's go to you first Katie so we have all 500 parents I know have committed to attending today's rally why are you going to show the government that we are here and that they need to listen to us and work with us there's a lot of anger in the current system and the government's not being very transparent and not communicating with us and we want to know that our legal rights and that our futures will be

protected I'm looking at your t-shirt fight for ordinary yeah we just want the same access to an education and to a future that every other child gets. It's not a special want to be able to go to a school where you feel safe. It's quite ordinary to go somewhere where you can learn without being stressed and without struggling and without having to fight to get the support. This, as I was mentioning or alluding to there, Ruth, it's come about because the Secretary of State for Education, Bridget Philipson, is also in the news quite a bit about, you know,

potential deputy labour leader, among others, but she trailed a school's white paper in autumn. We do not know what will be in it yet, but there are a couple of aspects that people have spoken about. For example, the government has refused to rule out the removal of education, health and care plans with EHPs. What are they, for those that are not familiar, and why is the idea of scrapping them a worry for families like yours? EHCPs are the layout, the legal protection and the legal rights that your child is entitled to and the support they need to get their education. It's a legal agreement between parents, the local authority and the school,

and they are an absolute lifeline for families. When children have been struggling, not getting support, unable to attend school, you get this tailored plan for your child, that outlines of support they're entitled to. The idea of losing them is quite frankly terrifying because they're the only way we can hold anybody to account. And even when you have one, you still have to fight to actually get what's laid out in it

because, sad to say, a lot of our local authorities aren't up to the job. What the government has said, and many others have said as well, that EHCPs aren't working, that the system is broken. We've heard that word previously, definitely from our listeners. Do you think there is a way to run the SEND system without EHCPs? Gosh, I'm no expert in education and that. I think the government has to protect the legal framework and that legal protection that families have.

losing that, I think, would be absolutely catastrophic. There may be better ways. There may be better types of plans. I don't know. I trust the government. I've talked to countries that do this much better than we do. I think the current system is expensive. And I know that's a concern for the government,

but they absolutely have to fundamentally protect. One line from the Education Secretary was our consistent engagement where parents shows there are elements of EHCPs that they value, but that we need to call time on the battles to access support and bureaucracy that too many continue to face. I mean, it doesn't specifically say that they would rid the system of EHCPs, but just to let our listeners know that is what the government is saying. Another bit, Katie, you've probably seen this,

there are promises to make mainstream schools more inclusive. Is that not a good thing? It is a good thing, and hopefully that would, enable more send children to be educated in school. But the government have to resource this properly because if not, you are throwing vulnerable send children into a place where they are not safe and they are not looked after. And that's not fair on them. They will become really stressed, really overwhelmed. They might have behaviours that will explode and then disrupt other students learning. That's not fair on them either. And I'm not saying that we should

separate send students because the system is isolating enough as it is and we deserve to be included but if the funding is not there and the implementation is not correct it will disrupt everyone's learning and I also want to see the government still keeping focus on special schools because no matter what you do some people will never be able to attend mainstream and also that the government should keep an eye out for those of us like me who are unable to attend any school at all because we still deserve an education and for those that aren't familiar with your experience Katie why could you not attend that school I have PTSD from private school year six specifically and for me being in school was just the most awful thing i had to keep

my real self hidden and pushed away and you had to go in through school where everything was so loud so busy bright overwhelming and you had to sit in a classroom and be drilled constantly on exams and the teachers never had enough time to look after you and it was so stressful and you just had to not have a meltdown in school because then everyone would look at you and you had to go home and just crying your parents' arms afterwards. What was that like for you Ruth? Heartbreaking devastating

terrifying, overwhelming. As a parent, you see your child fall apart. You're told your child has to be at school. You know, you can't push your child in. It's not the right place for them.

Katie didn't have a diagnosis. She got a late diagnosis and that was a problem. So she was left unsupported in school. and that's really critical. Which can happen to girls, right, Katie? Yeah, girls typically tend to be diagnosed later and that's a real problem in the system because if you do need a specialist secondary school

and you're diagnosed later, they're all full and there's no way you can go then. Yeah. With the government again, coming back to Bridget Philipson, she says they are listening to parents, taking action on the money question, investing $1 billion into send and 750 million pounds in specialist school places,

rolling out a new inclusion centre training curriculum and improving early intervention for ADHD, autism and speech and language needs, she goes on to say, but in a system so broken, there is much more to do and we'll hear more probably in the coming weeks. But Katie, you've spoken to MPs, taking part, as I mentioned, in the Education Committee inquiry.

What does that feel like? Do you feel heard? Well, all of the MPs I've spoken to have definitely listened to me, but the government isn't listening. The backbenchers are really nice, but the government definitely needs to do so much more work on engaging with young people and listening to us and our stories and making sure that we get to shape the future of the send system

because we're the ones who've lived through it, and no matter what they do, they will not see us as people until they've met us. So if you were to speak to Bridget Philipson, Katie, today, what would you say to her? Well, I'd share all of my experiences, firstly, so she understands exactly what the send system is like. And then I'd want her to put herself in my shoes

and just think, what would she want to happen? What would she want to see in the future to make sure that no other young person has to go through this? And to understand that no one chooses to go through the send system, we're forced into it, and we just want the same rights as everyone else and to access our futures. and I want her to say that all of our support will be protected,

especially the stuff that's already being used because it's so vital. Back to Bridget Philipson again, what she has said is that they inherited a system on its knees, forcing families to fight for every scrap of support. On the HCPs, of course, they say there are elements that they value, but they need to call time on the battles to access support and bureaucracy see that too many of them continue to face. And so with that, you head to Westminster.

Are you leaving after here? You're heading up. What's happening? Yep, we've got to head straight to the protest after this. Very excited. Yep, rejoining all the other parents and young people and children who turn out and hopefully making our voices hard. Hopefully government will listen.

MPs will be debating, send legal rights and the HCPs today after parliamentary petition amassed 122 signatures that was submitted by Rachel Filmer, Rachel Filmer, excuse me, co-founder of the Save Our Children's Rights campaigns and also a parent to autistic non-verbal twins. We will be watching today. Thank you very much for dropping into us before you pop to Westminster. And the full plans, according to the Education Secretary, she says, will be set out in the coming months, shaped with the families who've been let down for too long, working alongside us to do. deliver the outcomes these children deserves will continue following it.

If you want to get in touch with the program, 8444 is a good way to do it, or you can get in touch with, of course, on the regular social media channels as well. If it's on anything you've heard so far, whether it's send, whether it's running marathons, we're going to talk about that with Catherine Switzer, or if it's about a woman who's been called, one of the most original voices of her generation. Who said that? Who has just sat down off at me? Patricia Lockwood, welcome.

Thank you so much for having me. Good to have you in studio, because you're usually in Savannah. I know. And I like to be with a person. I like to see their mouth moving. Then I know what's going on. You and me both. Yeah.

For those that aren't familiar with you yet, you're a poet, a memoirist, a novelist. Yes. Your work I've read Straddles the literary world and the wilds of the internet. You first went viral with a traumatic poem called Rape Joke. Your memoir is called Pre-study about being the daughter. of a Catholic priest. Even interesting backstory. Your new book,

Will There Ever Be Another You, explores a surreal disorientation of illness, memory, and recovery in the wake of COVID. Okay, I read that you wrote it insane and edited it sane. Yes, so it's the opposite of my previous novel.

No one is talking about this. I wrote sane and edited insane. And then I just went directly to the opposite for this one, yeah. Okay, so the title brought me back. Will there ever be another you? And actually, as I was reading it out this morning, it's you, Y, O, U, but it could be EW. E. Well, that's so good. I didn't expect that at all. My mother would love you for that one. Oh, she loves a pun. So do I. Never met a pun. I didn't like. And it's so sad because I got like pun deafness. Instead of being able to do them, I can't come up with a single one. You can drive your partner crazy.

if you're into the puns. But let us go back. Dolly the sheep, how did she come back into your consciousness? This is true. There's an anecdote toward the beginning of the changeling, which is a long section, and will there ever be another you, where the narrator, let's just say myself, I'm walking around an antique shop,

I'm feeling very comfortable surrounded by the things of the dead. I walk into a booth where I see two framed time covers. One of them, Twin Towers, 9-11, tragic day. The other, Dolly the sheep, and the headline, will there ever be another you? So I did, I stole that. And I need to tell some of our younger listeners, that was a clone sheep. It was a big deal back in the day. And there were lots of, I remember, like, big mammary jokes about her. They were just, it's very hard to put yourself back in that time, but trust us, it was a ride. I totally had forgotten about it until I read your book. Yeah, it really flashback time.

So both the protagonist and you suffer, suffered from. long COVID. Eternal COVID, I called it. I had a better name. Yeah. And I think maybe what I'll get you to do is do a reading. Yes, let's do it. This will give people a little insight into your mind at that time.

Just a bit of insight into the derangement. We'll do this. People had lost their fingerprints. How was that possible? People were up at 3 a.m., contemplating the purchase of apple-flavored horse deworming paste, which had gone up to 30 bucks a tube. People, or maybe just her, were becoming confused after they got out of the shower and applying large tracts of deodorant to the skin of their face. People had Alice in Wonderland Syndrome, and something

called drunk baby head, and dark glittering damaged their vagus nerve. People were writing poems about it, ha, ha, she said whenever she saw one, though she used to write poems about everything that happened to her. People had Brian Fogg. Oh, no. And people did not recognize themselves. Amazing descriptions there. Were these things that you heard people had with long COVID? So you have to remember this was very early. I got sick in March 2020. I wrote about it for the LRB in late spring toward the beginning of summer. And what was going on is that I was on really early message boards for people who had gotten sick. And this. was before there was any sort of narrative about ivermectin, any crazy stuff coming from the White House. This was just people basically dosing themselves with wormwood to see if anything would help. We tried crazy, crazy things back in those days. And nothing really did the trick. But

it was something that I knew I was there. I was on the ground. No one else was really paying attention to it. No one was maybe going to remember it in the way that I was. So I did the same thing that I had done before I went crazy, which is that I just sat there taking notes about a time that no one would want to remember in the future. Well, this, we can talk about that as well, because I find that really interesting that we all went through this collective experience, but many people just want to forget it. Oh, yeah, they just wanted to paper over. You wanted to put the reader inside the cyclone.

I feel you do that. Yes. Well, thank you for saying that. I thought if I could just be true to the perceptions, what she's feeling, it doesn't matter if anyone believes me. It doesn't matter if anyone believes her. If I can put them in the whirlwind and sort of like put them into her skin, then they'll just go along with it. And I think they'll understand.

Of being that ill, that all off perspective is skewed. I mentioned that it is a novel, but I read that you prefer to call it a pineapple or a chandelier. Yes, or a disco ball, a mirror ball, a Louis Wayne cat, anything like that. I want to give a sense of it being a 360-degree book, right? Also, the revolving restaurant on top of the space needle is another kind of store. You get a different view all the time. We keep coming up with new sort of descriptors for it. But I did think it was something in the round.

You know, it didn't feel like a flat plane. It felt like you could enter through any door or a beehive, something like that. That there are a million cells where you might find yourself at any given moment. I want to turn to Virginia Woolf's 1926 essay for a moment on being ill. Yes. Where she says, it is strange. that illness has not taken its place with love and battle and jealousy among the prime themes of literature.

Maybe that intersects a bit with us not wanting to talk about COVID. But why do you think that is? Because it's such a human experience. When you think about her and she is one of those models of this sort of illness, she had this type of migraine, she had the highs and low, she had the oras. You really, when I got ill, I looked back historically and I thought, oh my gosh, Virginia Wool. Ellen Montgomery, Lewis Carroll, all of these people. Exactly. I know. You look back and you're like, but it was a subject for them, right? It was maybe sublimated through their work. But I think

Virginia Woolf is one of the people who came very, very close to being able to describe those perceptions to put people into the whirlwind. But yeah, of course we wanted to forget about it. I mean, people had gone totally nuts, even if they hadn't gone nuts. They were making sourdough bread. You know, they were trying, they were enrolling in pottery classes. Everyone wanted to have a different life at that time and everyone had an agreement there was a contract we're not going to write about it we're not going to write and over here i'm in the corner and i'm scribbling in my mad notebook and i'm like well i'm writing about it okay well one line i thought was stayed with me and it's an interaction with the doctor you know and we often say um i'm just not feeling like myself right which means you're

ill right and if you're not yourself then who are you are you the world undergoing an unprecedented Buchatini shortage. I remembered, I'm back, baby. I'm cured. How are you now? I am doing a lot better. So a lot of it was, it was status migranosis, which meant that I was either in a state of migraine or in a state of aura at all times. And rather than having pain, I had perceptual disturbances. They were definitely Alice in Wonderland, Lewis Carroll type migraines. It's like, you look down a hall and it's like, it lengthens or your foot is far away. You're standing six and just do the side of yourself. It's like that. And I found that it was responsive to the new class of migraine drugs, CGRP inhibitors. So I tried Culipta. And if you're experiencing

something like this, I can recommend that you give that a shot. And I also... I'll recommend you go to your GP to check it up, but that's my job. But at the same time, I also went on a crazy podcast diet, which I just want to let you know right away. It is a podcast diet. It's very uncool. But eating low carb helped me a lot with the migraine. Interesting. Really interesting. Some more things about you. You are ready to be a committed carer in the sense of if somebody needs personal care, that's something you're not afraid of. I'm there, baby. Yes. You are a jewelry maker. I am. I made this. A-Gates are your thing. I love to open agates on my lapidary saw. But yes, I took metal smithing

courses starting, I believe, in 2022 or 23. And there's a chapter about that if you're interested, yes. And then I'll just drop this one in. And your father is a Catholic priest. And you know, he just happens to be a very nude, very loud Catholic priest who is always dressed either in tidy whiteies or resplendent cascading black robes. He got special dispensation even though he was married with children. He did indeed. Yes, he was a Lutheran minister after being an atheist who converted on a nuclear submarine when he was about 19 or 20 years old. I mean, I've just glossed over the nude, the tidy whiteys, the flowing robes.

in there though. And that's in pre-study. It is indeed. And actually when we were adapting that show it was impossible to do the sort of thing where you do the sum up of his past and we were like, how do we cram all of this in there? It was simply too much. It's too crazy, you know?

You've met the Pope? I have indeed. How was that? It was well, he thought I was pregnant. So at the time my husband was quite ill he had had a surgery to correct a bowel obstruction and it had gone poorly, and in the wake of that he was quite ill. And I flew to Rome to meet the Pope, and the Pope had just had a similar surgery to what my husband had.

So when I shook his hand, I sort of made a little circling motion over my belly to tell him that I hope your stomach feels better soon. He had no idea what I was doing, and he pulled his hands away, looked at my stomach, thought a woman is gesturing to her stomach, she's pregnant, and then he drew back his hands, and he blessed my belly. It never came. That child never came to pass. But I thought maybe the blessing traveled through my body somehow and hit my husband. Give you easier periods or something. Yeah, because he got much better after that. So perhaps the cure did work. That was Pope Francis. It was indeed. I'm kind of fascinated with your partner as well. Oh, yeah. Everyone is. Yeah. I think I make him sound good. But hang on. I was reading that he felt he dreamt of you before he met you. Yes. A very beautiful woman, very evil looking. He said he had seen her in a dream. And it was the first thing he said to me, too. You know, we met each other on the steps of this abandoned convent, which is already a surreal experience.

And he comes up and he takes my hand and he said, you're the woman in my dream. He didn't tell me the very evil-looking part until later. That was something that I heard later on. But that was obviously something he was into. You got engaged and married? Yes, as babies. I was 21, so I could drink. Which is more than my mother or older sister could say.

We do it very young in my family. Interesting. Another thing I like that you do, you write from bed. I'm a big proponent of working from bed. The horizontal move is absolutely the move. Because I think when you get up then, you feel like you haven't done any work, but actually you've been really productive. And you know what it probably does? You know how you're so creative right after coming out of the dream state?

It probably tricks your body into thinking you're still there. And if you've got a physical notebook and a real pen, that's the way to do it. You also said that the families of writers are kind of condemned. to be observed. How does your family feel about that? They're in hell. Well, my father, you know, my father is the one who really deserves it, right?

I'm like, hey, this is payback. But he also has this brilliant thing where he says, you know, I'm never going to read this. You can write anything you want. People belong to themselves. The rest of my family is very generous as well, but there's something really beautiful about that, I think. But then I thought, you know, I was being profiled recently for the New Yorker.

And she asked me, yeah, it was, yeah, I heard. Because she said, well, you read it. And I said, no, you can. write anything you want and then I was like oh no my father let's talk about social media before I let you go because you were you know you became so famous through social media as well but you have said social media is like trying to drink from a fire hose yeah just putting your mouth right on there can't do it so do you do it anymore I really don't so I kind of got off right after the inauguration I kind of looked at things and was like yeah I'm not doing that again

And I just hopped off it, have stayed off for the last six months or so, wrote an entire poetry collection in that time, very productive. Recently hopped back on to do some book stuff and just saw everyone talking about like Cracker Barrel logos. And I was like, yeah, I'm not doing this anymore. I'm hopping right back off again. So you won't find her on social media, but you will find Patricia Lockwood with her pineapple disco ball chandelier novel. Yes. Will there ever be another you?

And it's out on the 23rd of September. Thanks so much for coming into it. Thank you so much for having me. Enjoy London while you're here. Now, lots of you getting in touch, particularly with SEND. Let me get some of your comments coming in. I can totally relate to the account of having PTSD at school. Our son had this at a so-called independent SEND school.

And he was diagnosed with school-based trauma, 84844, if you'd like to get in touch. I want to turn to a story next, which has been uncovered by our colleagues at BBCI Investigations. The documentary and podcast series, it's called Death in Dubai, has identified a former London bus driver running a sex ring, exploiting young, vulnerable Ugandan women. The programme has been told that hundreds of women are going to Dubai from Uganda, seeking their fortunes and ending up in sex work.

Two of the women that they look at died falling from tower blocks in Dubai. BBCI producer and reporter is Urnaku Salina and has spent two and a half years investigating this story. There may be some graphic language as well as we discuss these stories just to let you know. You're very welcome, Muraka. Thank you so much for having me. Now, your starting off point for this investigation was the death of one Ugandan woman, Monica Karucci, also known as Mona Kiz online.

What was it that started that investigation for you? It was seeing news of her passing on social media. There was a lot of misinformation online. Her comment section was just tearing her apart full of really horrific comments. Some people were saying that she deserved her death and other things like this. And what I realised was that there was a storm of misinformation

around her death. At the centre of this was two videos in particular. The first of which was a video of a woman falling to her death supposedly in Dubai, according to social media. And the second was a really graphic video that they also linked to her and said it was her. In the first case, I realised the first video was taken in Russia six months prior to her death on the 1st of May 2022.

So I realized, okay, this is not her. The second of which, the woman in the video had facial features that weren't a match to Monica, and they also had a nose ring. So I realized, okay, this can't be her either. And that was kind of the departure point to realize that something else is going on here. It's such a social media investigation in so many ways as well as you kind of put this jigsaw together. You did travel to Dubai and Uganda for this investigation and met Monica's family. I absolutely did.

I mean, it was very difficult for them because they had to sit there and read these comments from strangers halfway around the world. And so they were understandably very suspicious of anyone coming to dig and find out more. So there was a process of kind of allowing them to interrogate my attentions and kind of understand what I was here for. And that's when I met Monica's sister, Rita, who she lived with in Kampala. right before she left her country for the first time, I add, to go to Dubai. As she speaks, Luganda, I should mention as well, so somebody else voices up her words,

and let's hear a little about when she heard her sister was going to Dubai. I said, you know that you need a lot of money to do so. And she said, no, I won't put in any money. She told me confidently that her guy was helping her. I asked her, do you trust the people taking you? She said that she trusted them because they were her friends.

He told me that, first of all, she's a beautiful girl, she speaks English, and she's hard working. She'll be able to work. He said that he takes people abroad and he would get her a job. I thought he was a good man,

helping his friend to make her life better. I thought he had good intentions. He told me that she'll be fine. He promised that she would be safe. but she was not there was some shocking some horrible connotations on social media around Monica's death

it was a hashtag I mean it really debases the life of somebody I feel people using a hashtag Dubai Porta Potty Porta Potty being a Portauloo Can you explain what that meant? Yeah absolutely as you said Monica became the face

on social media in 2022 of this hashtag it had 450 million views on TikTok alone. And this essentially refers to this internet rumor that's been around for quite a long time about influences allegedly being flown out to Dubai to satisfy sexual kind of fantasies of men over there, specifically men who want women to defecate on them and to women who are defecated on essentially. And the internet narrative is that these women do this willingly for cash and for monetary game. And Monica was just one of the women that you began investigating.

Absolutely. So Monica was kind of the inroad into this investigation. And after mapping out a network around her, women who knew her, those who loved her and knew her reality in Dubai and also say that they experienced it too, I found that there was another woman who a year before in 2021 had also fallen to her death in Dubai. And mapping out this network, I realized that they were both connected to the same men over there. So they weren't separate, isolated cases? Absolutely not. And what's really interesting is that speaking over the past two and a half years to Uganda

who care deeply about this issue. And it's a global issue, but specifically speaking to Uganda to understand the local kind of circumstances that lead to this, there's an environment in which unemployment is a massive issue across the world. But in Uganda, it forces a lot of people to seek opportunities abroad. And I spoke to a woman called Muiza Mariam. She's one of the foremost experts of this industry and this understanding what's happening in Uganda on the ground. She's rescued around 700 people. And she told me that this is not an isolated case.

She hears stories like this all the time. We get cases of people who have been promised to work, let's say, in a supermarket. Then she ends up sold as prostitutes. How big is the problem? It's very big. I cannot finish getting cases, like five to ten cases on a daily basis. and remember not everyone has my phone, but at least the few that has can access to my phone

or my social media handles try to reach to me. So that shows gives you a picture that people are there suffering. She has rescued more than 700 women. I was very struck by the 5 to 10 that are getting in touch with her right now. And you did discover in your map and I'd recommend people go and see it just for the level of work and bravery

as well that you have while you're doing this work. Two men you identified. What do we know about them and who are they? So testimonies from several women that I spoke to who say that these men bring them to Dubai on the promise of jobs and opportunities suggests that the first man is Umar Bash Bashir. He's a Ugandan who's based in Uganda

and they allege that he offers them jobs and then puts them in touch with another man who's on the ground in domestic. Dubai called Abbey. Locally, that's how he's known in Dubai. We identify his, we find his name through open source investigation to be Charles Muesigua. They say that once they arrive in Dubai, they're told they have to sell sex to pay off money that allegedly he tells them that they owe. And they're then put into the super clubs of Dubai, the most glamorous places in Dubai, where they are supposed to solicit men and find men that they can, it sounds terrific to say,

sell these services to. You managed to track Abby down and sent someone in undercover posing as an events organizer for it that they might want the services of the women that Abby was in contact with. Abby tells the undercover person that he can get him open-minded girls. How are you doing? I'm good, I'm good, good, yeah. Tell me, what's up, much good one. So I've got a series of parties coming up, like once a week, ten people. All right.

I need some entertainment. So it'll be next Thursday. yeah and then third day after that as well so these are finance guys all right can you sort me out like what do we yeah we've got enough girls and we've got like 25 000 25 bills now and fresh all the time okay so 20 we've got two villas and that's where they sleep and today like yeah they'll do whatever meaning i open my i'll send you the craziest i have i'll send you the craziest i have i'll send you the I thought, listening to that. Abby, you were able to manage to track down

and speak to directly. I mean, what's his response? Well, yeah, he denies all of these allegations that we put to him. He also says that Monica had left his apartment and that he hadn't seen her for four or five weeks before she passed away. He says that both girls were renting rooms that had different landlords. and he basically says that he was not involved or responsible in any way.

And also, I remember he talked about the incidents being investigated by the Dubai police and pushing you on to them. Maybe they could help you, Runaika, so to speak. But with the Dubai police? Absolutely. So we also sought a reply from the Dubai authorities. They did not respond to us. The reason why we went to the Dubai authorities was because of this.

And also because we heard allegations. that, you know, these cases, once they happen when girls lose their lives, specifically African women, these cases are not looked into, and that's what we sought a response for. And no response from Umar Bash? Umar Bash Bashash, he also did not respond to our allegations that we put to him. So this is continuing. There's also a piece online, I should say. But I did think, while watching you, what has it been like?

I mean, you were putting yourself potentially in harm's way. It was incredibly difficult, and I'm very, grateful to the team that we had to kind of support us in doing this investigation. I think it was just really, really important to get these women's stories out there and to get the world to see that, you know, the kind of image that we kind of receive and the imaging that we receive around Dubai sometimes is very much like an hedonistic place to go to have fun, glamour. Skyscraper, fountains, bright lights, kind of nightclubs, wealth. Exactly. And this is what I experienced being there. And then I thought, there's clearly a dual reality here at play. And there's an

underworld that those who have the least kind of privilege in this world experience firsthand, you know, I heard allegations of people telling me their experiences African women living there, that they felt like they were at the bottom of the hierarchy of society. And so you can imagine that that can lead to this power imbalance even when it comes to things like justice and trying to get out of situations. And the young women, for example, some that you spoke to thought they were going to get jobs in supermarkets, for example, or other aspects within Dubai's society, really, where they might have a job.

Do you think the message is getting through to young, young, Ugandan women that might be thinking of going to Dubai, that there is this potential, I suppose, really potential circumstances that they might enter into? I think things are improving, and I think there's still a long, long way to go. You know, women like Moisa, Moisa Merriam, who's been doing this work for a really long time,

I think they are at the centre of kind of getting this messaging out there and encouraging people to know that, hey, there's another reality at play here. However, you know, as we speak, I think this issue continues to kind of go on. And that was the whole point of this documentary and this investigation. It was to get the word out there in a hope that things change. Renaka, Selena. Thank you very much for coming in. Listen to the Full Investigation, World of Secret, Season 9, Death in Dubai on BBC Sounds.

Also, the documentary is on BBC iPlayer right now. I want to turn to some of your messages that have been coming in. My daughter has been a midwife for many years in a large teaching hospital, which covers a large rural area as well as a city. She's been talking about the conditions she has to work under for a long time, including institutional racism and from patients, she says, with no safe way to report it. Long shifts, no time to eat, drink or go to.

to the toilet and cuts to the budget that means they can't even get a pen without filling out forms. Will the investigation look at the conditions that midwives have to work under and give them an opportunity to tell their side of the story? And perhaps even more importantly, will they get the support they need and deserve and not be scapegoats in a failing system? That, of course, in response to the rapid review that we were talking about this morning. On to send a Scottish perspective. Families outside England are also coping with a broken education and health system for their kids with additional needs. There is no such. thing as an EHCP in Scotland.

This is such an important issue and at a crisis point UK-wide, there are thousands of us struggling here to cope in Scotland and the send system just doesn't exist here. 844, if you would like to get in touch. Now, I want to turn to Catherine Switzer. She was the first female to officially run the Boston Marathon that was back in 1967. At the time, it was considered a men's only race. However, a race official even tried to stop her mid-event when they discovered she was a woman.

We'll hear all about that. She went on to complete the course and has dedicated her life to enable women to participate in the sport. She's in her late 70s now has run 42 marathons, the co-founder of 261 Fearless, that aims to empower women through running. You're very welcome, Catherine. Welcome to the programme.

Now, I think I have you on mute at the moment. bear with me for one second we're just going to try that again can i hear you katherine i do i have you i'll try one more time no i'm going to do that for one second i'm going to get katherine's not oh no katherine i have you okay hi how are you really good every screen there's unmute mute yeah i know i honest to god i do feel the mute on mute button we're still all um what would I say, challenged by it, even though we were talking about COVID a little bit earlier, even though we're a number of years down the line, it's the button that still gets us. Well, let me turn to you and your amazing achievements that you've had over the past decades.

Can I turn back to 1967 and when you took part in that Boston marathon? I think just 20 years of age, but I loved looking at some of the photographs from that time because I suppose they just show this different era. There is one of the officials of the marathon who is trying to stop you mid-race because your hood had come down and people I'd realize, shock horror, you were a woman. Tell me about that time.

Well, Nula, honestly, I didn't have a hood on. I was dressed in a sweatsuit simply because it was freezing under that outfit. I had a really cute shorts and top. I was very proud of being a woman. And I was very proud of having done the distance in practice. I knew I could do this. I'd run 31 miles three weeks before.

My coach was very proud of me. And he insisted that I register for the race. And what happened is that several guys went with me up to the Boston Marathon. And he picked up the bibs, you know, together as a team I pinned it on. Men around me loved it. Wish my wife would run. I wish my girlfriend would run. But about two miles into the race, the press truck came by.

and went crazy seeing a woman wearing a bib number in the race. I was very proud of myself. My team was proud of me. But then the official's truck came. And on this was an angry Scotsman. His name was Jock Simple. And he was the overseer of this race. And he didn't like any fooling around.

And he thought I was a clown. He didn't believe I was serious. Jumped off this official's truck, attacked me. You know, it wasn't just a matter of trying to pull my number. off. He grabbed me by the shoulders and screamed at me, get the hell out of my race, and give me those numbers, and really was assaulting me and trying to pull my numbers off. My coach was screaming, the guys who were screaming, but my boyfriend, who happened to be a 235-pound ex-All-American football player, threw a cross-body block into the official and sent him flying. It was really

mastery. And my coach said, run like hell. Now, when you repeat this, look at you, you're laughing, Okay? It is funny. It is funny. But imagine a 20-year-old girl in her first big race, not realizing that this, there was no rules about this, Nula. There was nothing on the entry about gender, nothing in the rulebook about gender. My coach was so proud of me. And now here I was. I thought we'd killed the official. I was frightened. The press was all over me. Very aggressive. What are you trying to prove? prove. Are you a suffragette? Are you a crusader? When are you going to quit? They couldn't believe I was serious. And it was a moment that changed my life. What can I tell you? And consequently, it's changed millions of women's lives. Funny, we were talking about the covers of time, but time life has called that photograph that you described so well there, one of the 100 photos that change the world. And you mentioned your bib. That is 261. People are wondering about the title 261 Fearless

which is you're the co-founder of which encourages women to take up running but where we are now I just wondering how you see that whole trajectory because there you were at the very beginning I believe it became I mean friendly with Jock Semple eventually afterwards

Yeah you know I finished the race and by the time I finished the race I had forgiven him you know he's just a product of his time and it was going to be up to women men like me to change his mind. And I was angry also at women. I was wondering why they weren't taking any challenges. And I suddenly also realized they didn't have any opportunities to prove otherwise. So it was going to be up to me to prove, to create those opportunities. Jock and I became

friends eventually. It took about five years for him. I was forgiving him already. And then I was fighting for equality in women's sports in the marathon, especially. We got women official finally in the Boston Marathon in 1972. By that time, other women were running, but still there were no opportunities for them. And then that created a career for me. I created eventually a global series of races in 27 countries through Avon Cosmetics that led to getting women's marathon into the Olympic Games in 1984, which was absolutely globally transforming because everybody saw it on television.

It was just so amazing. I thought of you this morning because the news headlines were on in the sports headlines and it was about the women's marathon in the World Athletics Championship. And I'm like, wow. And it's just another headline now,

you know, very exciting for the women that have won. But did you think at that point as that lone 20-year-old that we'd be where we are now? Yes, I went across the finish line. they said, this is a one-off, isn't it? And I said, no, I'm sorry. One day, women's running is going to be as popular and publicizable as men's. But Nulu, we still have a lot of work to do, and that is, and I hear the story about Uganda, which was so horrible. And I'm not saying

that running could change those women's lives, but running empowers women, gives them the strength to make strong decisions. And that's why we created 261 fearless, which is, you know, using the fearlessness and the power of that number to let women know, we're going to create a series of clubs around the world, and we have in 15 countries. And here in the UK, it's 261 Fearless Club UK. You can go online and join us, become a coach and help women get empowered through running and get education. We have a whole educational program as well. And I would love to see so many women who think they can't do anything who are not empowered just to put one foot in front of the other. It works. It's magic. Even if older? Absolutely. In fact, that's one of the most

growing areas of women's running. Many women are 50 and 60 and starting to run their first marathon even. But women who are 50 and 60 also can become a coach and change their communities. Get women who are afraid to go out the door. Take me by the hand, be my friend and join us and just just come out and have a community. I think that's another thing that is so important. What keeps you running? It's magic. It makes me feel close to nature. It's my moment to be grateful for living and to think more about what we can do to help these other women. There are millions of them out there. You have run 42 marathons. As I mentioned, you're 78. Do you think you'll run another marathon? Yeah, I'm thinking about it, Nula. I mean, it's going to be 80 pretty soon. I kind of would like

to do one more at 80, but I don't want to commit myself. I understand. Is there a particular place, though, because I know marathon runners often, like, hold certain cities or certain marathons close to their heart. Obviously, Boston must be one for you. Yeah, yeah. I ran Boston on the 50th anniversary of my

first run. We, in fact, had 125 women running on a charity team 4-261, fearless. It launched us globally. And I was 70 at the time. And at that moment, it was one of the happiest moments of my life because for the first time, the Boston Marathon was actually 50, 50 men and women.

So it's, yes, now women are actually overtaking men in terms of their numbers. It's really very interesting. 58% of all participating runners in the United States are women, and that's true in Canada, Mexico, and Brazil as well. So we're making great inroads, but yes, yes, I really would love to see more people put one foot in front of the other. Well, I'm sure people will take inspiration. from you this Monday morning, Catherine Switzer,

on maybe just getting out the door and putting one foot in front of the other with the trainers on Catherine Switzer. She was the first female to officially run the Boston Marathon back in 1967 and now the co-founder of 261 Fearless that wants you to get out there. Thanks so much for joining us.

Tomorrow my guest is Baroness Hale who was the first female president of the Supreme Court and the youngest person to be appointed to the Law Commission where she led the work on what became the 1989 Children Act. You may remember when Boris Johnson pro wrote Parliament in 2019.

She led the judges who announced that was unlawful. She joins me to discuss her new book with the law on our side. Join me then. That's all for today's woman's hour. Join us again next time. Nature. Nature Bang. Hello.

Hello. And welcome to Nature Bang. I'm Becky Ripley. I'm Emily Knight. And in this series from BBC Radio 4, we look to the natural world to answer some of life's big questions. Like how can a brainless slime mold help us solve, complex mapping problems.

And what can an octopus teach us about the relationship between mind and body? It really stretches your understanding of consciousness. With the help of evolutionary biologists, I'm actually always very comfortable comparing us to other species. Philosophers. You never really know what it could be like to be another creature. And spongologists. Is that your job title? Are you a spongeologist?

Well, I am in certain spheres. It's science meets storytelling. with a philosophical twist. It really gets at a heart of free will and what it means to be you. So if you want to find out more about yourself via cockatoos that dance, frogs that freeze, and single-salamoebas that design border policies, subscribe to NatureBang. From BBC Radio 4, available on BBC Sounds.

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