Woman's Hour - Paula Radcliffe, Belarusian political activist Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya, High sugar baby food pouches, Virginia Giuffre

Episode Date: April 28, 2025

Paula Radcliffe broke records and redefined women’s long-distance running, holding the marathon world record for more than 16 years. The four time British Olympian secured the Six Star Medal last week - and has now run all six original marathons: Tokyo, Boston, London, Berlin, Chicago, New York City. Recently she has had her resilience tested in a whole new way - supporting her teenage daughter Isla through a rare and aggressive form of ovarian cancer. Now, in recovery, Isla ran the London marathon yesterday. Paula joins Nuala to discuss.The Belarusian political activist Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya joins Nuala to discuss her remarkable journey from "ordinary person" to leading the opposition whilst in political exile. In 2020 she stood in the Presidential election after her husband, Sergei, was arrested. She claimed victory in the polls, which were widely thought to be rigged, but was forced to flee the country with her children. She now lives in Lithuania from where she has established an oppositional government and hasn't heard from her husband in two years. A new BBC Panorama investigation has found baby food pouches from some of the leading brands have been failing to meet the nutritional needs of developing children and have been misleading parents on their suitability. More than 250 of these products are on the multi-million pound baby pouch market and have become a staple for many households with babies and children up to the age of two or three. Nuala is joined by Catrin Nye the reporter for Panorama, and baby and child nutritionist Charlotte Stirling-Reed.The death of Virginia Giuffre, who accused Jeffrey Epstein and the Duke of York of sexual abuse, has made headline news over the weekend. The 41 year old, who was living in Australia, was described by her family as a "fierce warrior in the fight against sexual abuse and sex trafficking". Nuala discusses her life and campaigning with Harriet Wistrich of the Centre for Women's Justice and BBC Correspondent, Katy Watson.Presented by Nuala McGovern Producer: Louise Corley

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. What life advice would you like to pass on to your children? Remember that failure is not a sign of defeat, but an opportunity to learn and grow. What challenges would you like to prepare them for? Death is part of life and we need to talk more about it. Dear Daughter is a podcast from the BBC World Service, sharing words of wisdom from parents all over the world. This is who we are, this is what we do.

Dear Daughter, listen now wherever you get your BBC podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. Well, we have four-time British Olympian Paula Radcliffe in just a moment. Her daughter, Isla, has been following in her footsteps by running the London Marathon yesterday. Now, it must have been quite the moment to see her 18-year-old finish that first marathon because in recent years, Isla has recovered from a rare form of ovarian cancer. We'll discuss what it was like for Paula to witness Isla crossing that finish line.

Go Isla! Go Isla! Paula cheering Isla on there. But I'd also like to hear from you today. If you have experienced your child overcoming adversity, if you remember that moment when you realized that they were going to be okay, perhaps they turned a significant corner and were coming back up from a difficult time, if you'd like to share you can text the program the number is 84844 on social media we're at BBC Woman's Hour or you can email us through our website for a

WhatsApp message or a voice note the number is 03 700 100 444. Also today the exiled Belarusian opposition leader Sviatlana Tikhanovskaya her country is a staunch ally of Russia and what happens between Ukraine and Russia will directly affect Belarus. So we're going to hear about her political fight in exile and also how she sees President Trump's latest comments on the war in Ukraine and particularly about Ukraine ceding Crimea. This hour we will also remember Virginia Dufray, the woman who accused Prince Andrew and Jeffrey Epstein of sexual abuse has died by suicide aged 41 According to her family

They said in a statement she had been a fierce warrior in the fight against sexual abuse and that the toll of abuse became Unbearable Prince Andrew has denied all allegations will speak in more detail about that Plus as you might have been hearing in the news bulletin there, a BBC investigation that we'll get into about the nutritional value of baby food pouches. But let me begin with the woman that we know as a world champion, a marathon legend. Paula Radcliffe has broken records and redefined women's long-distance running, holding the marathon world record for over 16 years. Last week, you might have seen this, she won the coveted six-star medal for completing all six World Marathon majors

so quite a globe-trotting feat with that. But in recent years the four-time British Olympian has really had her resilience tested in a whole different way, supporting her teenage daughter, Isla, through a rare and aggressive form of ovarian cancer. Isla's now well. She ran the London Marathon yesterday with Paula cheering from the sidelines. Welcome, Paula. Thank you. Welcome. Tell me a little bit.

I saw that clip played a little bit for our listeners there as you were cheering Isla on from the sidelines. But how did that feel to see your daughter, who's been through so much, as you were cheering Isla on from the sidelines. But how did that feel to see your daughter who's been through so much as you have and your family in the past few years with that illness but now running and finishing the London Marathon? I think it was an emotional moment it was certainly extremely emotional for Isla who I'm not sure was fully prepared for that wave of emotion that hits pretty much every marathon runner when they turn to see the finish. She had gone really well until about 30 kilometers and then she had had to walk for some of it, so she'd been tested, but she managed to keep

going. She was determined she was going to finish. We knew that the preparation had pretty much been non-existent in terms of what she'd been able to put in because of school work and other commitments that she's been juggling. But she made her mind up last year and if there's one thing about Isla that I'm extremely proud of when she commits to something, she sees it through right to the end. So she was exhausted at the end, but I think when she looks back on it, she'll be proud of herself like all of those runners out there for coming through those tough spots and keeping going. So she gets her dog a determination from her mother?

I think she probably triples that. Oh, really? OK, well, then definitely we need to keep an eye on Isla. But tell us a little bit, because I mentioned just briefly there that she had been diagnosed with a rare and aggressive form of ovarian cancer when she was just 14? 13. We were actually, we were, if you can call it lucky, we were certainly more fortunate in that situation because it was the teenage adolescent form of ovarian cancer. So she had a malignant germ tumour on her ovary and it is rare. It's not aggressive thankfully. So it's a tumor that grows still attached to itself and it

is extremely rare that it would metastasize within the body. We were extremely fortunate that hers was contained. It was big. It was 16 centimetres by 13 by 11 on her ovary, but it hadn't spread. So it responded very well to the aggressive treatment that she had. And it was pretty much 99% killed and shrunk to a couple of centimetres by the time she had the surgery to remove it and the ovary and the fallopian tubes. And how did you know or she know that something was wrong? And a number of things and it was kind of looking back, I think as a parent, you absolutely kick yourself for not having put the pieces together sooner.

But when they're all looked at in isolation, they don't necessarily all add up. So she was sleeping in more, but she was also a teenager. She was a little bit more her emotions and hormones were, were all over the place. So she was a little bit more temperamental, and would have some outbursts and would get just burst into tears for no reason. And then she was she was it was during COVID. So during lockdown. And we thought she started her periods, but then the periods became closer together and very dark blood. She felt the lump in her stomach,

but she didn't tell anyone. And she was getting a lot of pain around that bleeding. So it was at that point that we took her in to see the pediatrician, who immediately felt the lump and sent us for scans. And from seeing the pediatrician on Tuesday, we had scans on the Wednesday. It was confirmed on Thursday and by the following Wednesday, we were already starting chemotherapy. So it was extremely quickly handled.

But also looking back, she had been raising her brother and swimming underwater and things during lockdown. And she realized that she could go for less and less far each time because the tumour was taking up lung space and she would get pain in her bladder because it was also basically pushing down. It's quite something I'm sure looking back on it now Paula, that time that you went through and then this wonderful episode yesterday of her crossing the finish line with that dog of determination, as you described. But I wonder for other parents that are going through something, you know, with their children, that they're in the thick of it, because I imagine you are an exceptional person when it comes to resilience. I don't know if there's something you learn from that particular experience or whether it's something that you draw on those reserves no matter what it is you do. Yeah, I mean, I think you nobody really knows until they're put into a situation

like that, how they're going to be able to get through it. But I think you have to. And part of the motivation for that is this is a strength the strength of the children going through it. And Isla's outlook was obviously she was confronted with something scary and she wanted to really take the lead from the medical professions in terms of what to do. But then she really just wanted to kind of absorb that and let her body do it. So I don't think she really, she very sensibly tried not to take too much other energy out of the tank in terms of worrying about it. She just accepted it for what it is. This is what they've said I have to do. It's going to be this round of chemotherapy, then it's going to be this recovery, and I'll have to do three of those.

And I think all I could do, and that's the hardest thing as a parent, is you can't do it for them. You have to watch them suffer and find the strength to go through it. And all you can do is kind of hold their hand and be there emotionally and do as much as you can to make it as smooth as possible for her. And you become extremely grateful for support networks around you in terms of friends and family. I missed my dad hugely. I'd lost my dad in the April prior to that. But at the same time, I kind of realized that everything that he had taught me growing up came into play in terms of you take one day at a time, you control what you can do,

and you just keep a positive mindset on it. And that was helped by the constant feedback from the medical side that yes the tumor is shrinking and I think that helped Isla too. When you see that yes the chemotherapy feels horrible but it's working and it's moving forward then that made it a lot easier for us. Yeah I'm just also thinking you know a 13, 14 year old girl I'm sure as a mum you sometimes want to shield them from bad news, but this is a situation where you have to be completely honest. You have to be completely honest. The medical staff are extremely professional.

I mean, they're at that age where you actually first have to explain what a fallopian tube is, what an ovary actually is, and to kind of comprehend that understanding at at the same time as I mean, I actually said that she was almost relieved when they told her that she had cancer because she knew something was wrong and she didn't know what it was. And so to actually put a name to it and then to be able to, to take the advice and to for the medics to be able to fight it, that was a good thing for her and they are forced to grow up. But she is extremely mature now in her outlook and obviously it gave her a huge amount of perspective, it gave us a huge amount of perspective. The only important thing is that we get as many children as possible, as many people as possible

better again after they are diagnosed. And that's why Isla was running, really to raise awareness. Yes, yeah, absolutely. I mean, she was very well aware in the hospital that there were other children around who were worse off than she was and who were really struggling through that. And I think she was extremely grateful to come out the other side and to now be healthily approaching her final year at school and going away to university next year and she just felt it was the right time to do as much as she could to raise awareness for our charity Children with Cancer UK but for just for children's cancer

and cancer across the board in terms of doing what we can to fight it as much as possible. I'm really glad she is well and well done her for finishing your dad would have been so proud of that as well. Continuing the generational marathoners. But I want to talk about you as well, because you won the coveted six star medal for completing all six world marathon majors. So we've got Tokyo, London, Berlin, Chicago, New York, and then you finished in Boston. Congratulations on that.

But I was also really interested to read that you say your body is done with road racing. Tell me what that feels like. Honestly, it was frustration, I think, talking. So I'd gone out to Tokyo, I mean, I had different commitments and I didn't wanna be away from the kids too much at that point. So I'd only gone out a couple of days before and I probably made slightly the wrong choice in shoes

in terms of the fact that I bruised my foot. So that experience was, it was hard work and it was not an exceptionally quick time but I managed to get under three hours which is one of the goals that I had. But it did feel like it was not an exceptionally quick time, but I managed to get under three hours, which is one of the goals that I had. But it did feel like it was really hard work. And then I go to Boston and I actually felt great the first nine miles, I was really enjoying it.

And I was starting to think, oh, actually I might be a little bit competitive in terms of times that I can do here. And then it felt like somebody just shot a pellet gun in the back of my calf at nine miles and I went from feeling great and really enjoying it to worrying about whether I would be able to finish. Luckily I could keep running slower but it was frustrating because every time I tried to to pick it up again the calves just cramped and they're still pretty sore now but I did I was able to get to the finish so I think it was the frustration of I think structurally my body just

can't run that quickly on the road. I might be able to get my cardiovascular system into shape to do that but my body can't. So I think now I will just continue running for fun as I have been doing and jumping into road races but for fun, not trying to push it. So still jumping into the road races, you heard it here, yeah forget about that body is done comment. Well I think once you're a runner you're always a runner and you can't work on and be around and witness events like the London Marathon yesterday and not want to be a part of that. Whether it's as a small shakeout run or whether it's as 10 kilometre, you're always a runner and you always will

revel, I guess, in being in that atmosphere and that camaraderie and that spirit. And it was very, very palpable on the streets of London yesterday. Well done to everybody who took part out there. So when you're sitting there and you were commentating yesterday and cheering, of course, for Isla, do you have like an itch that wants to be scratched to kind of put on the trainers and go for it? I think it's more just you just admire everybody out there and you can feel almost the emotions that they're going through because anyone who's run a marathon knows those so well and that's what's so special about it. Everybody of those, I'm not sure what the final count was on the finishers but they were hoping to break the record so upwards of 56,000 finishers maybe and they all went through largely the same emotions, the same ups and downs, the same

difficult spots within that race and that's what I think brings you together so yeah while I'm commentating and certainly while I'm watching Isla I'm nervous now, she did run with her phone so I was sending her messages to try and keep her going knowing that those would play out in her ears. Typical teenagers, she wouldn't leave that behind, leaving her mum advised to do so. And I'm focusing on my commentating role as well, which of course helped because I couldn't be too distracted or too concerned for her. I had to trust that she knew what she was doing out there and she she was very sensible in terms of setting off steadily and walking when she felt pain. So good to have you on. Congratulations to Isla. Congratulations to you Paula as well.

Thank you and congratulations to everybody else who finished. I know Adele Roberts finished her six-star Nicola Carragher did yesterday. There were a lot of runners out there that did that in London, so congratulations to all of them and I say a huge thank you to anybody that came out on the streets of London volunteering or cheering because I'm sure all of the runners appreciated that and you did an amazing job. You heard it there from Paula Radcliffe. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. I want to turn to my next guest who is the Belarusian political activist Sviatlana Tikhanovskaya. Until five years ago, Sviatlana would have described herself as an ordinary person taking

care of her family. But back in 2020, her husband Sergei stood as a candidate in the presidential election against the current president of Belarus, Alexander Lukashenko. Lukashenko has now been in power for 30 years. Her husband, Sviatlana's husband Sergei, was arrested along with most other opposition leaders and Sviatlana, despite no prior political background, stood in his place. It is understood that Lukashenko allowed her candidacy because he believed that no woman could form a legitimate opposition. Instead, Sviatlana claimed victory in the polls, which were widely thought to be rigged,

but was forced into exile with her children the day after the vote. So she now lives in Lithuania, where she has established an oppositional government. She has not heard from her husband, Sergej, in two years. Sviatlana Tikvintoskaya joins me now. Welcome to the programme. Sviatlana Tecavdanova-Skaya joins me now. Welcome to the program. May we go back to five years ago when your husband was arrested? What do you remember of that experience now? Hello everybody. Thank you for giving me this wonderful platform to speak up about Belarus, about our fight for freedom. And it's only five years passed since 2020, or better to say it's already five years passed,

because these five years were full of new knowledge for me, full of new experience, but also full of everyday pain, pain for my country, pain for my husband, for all the political prisoners and for the future of Belarus. And of course, back in 2020, I, you know, you told already that I call myself an accidental president because I have never such experience. But when the moment of my husband's detention came, I just stepped in because I just knew that I had to do the right thing. And people voted for me because I think that I spoke from the heart. I promised to be together with Belarusians until we stop repressions, free political prisoners, and bring elections to my country.

And as you said already, Belarusian regime told that our constitution is not written for a woman. They for sure wanted to make joke of me. But I think that Belarusians are wiser than dictators think. And people voted not for gender, but for hope and for an end of fear in my country. And since then, you know, I have to learn from scratch what is politics, you know, how to communicate with the country's leaders, you know, how to hold people united for our dreams. And it's not easy path, for sure it is not. Sometimes I'm extremely exhausted, being simultaneously a leader and a mother of two.

But I believe in Belarusian people, I believe in democratic world actually whose moral obligation I'm sure to stand strongly with those who are on the front line of fighting against dictatorship, against tyranny. And you went, as you described there, from a political novice to meeting with world leaders, pushing your message, building an opposition from Lithuania. But you know, many will say Lukashenko is still in power. There were back in 2020, people may remember protests where so many tucked to the streets, but he continues to be very firmly established. The protests don't seem to be taking place anymore, you can tell me if you see differently. They

definitely are not making the headlines in the way that they were. I mean, do you lose hope, for example, that regime change would happen in Belarus, as you would describe it? Yes, in fact, Lukashenko is still in power in my country, but he and his dictatorship, his regime feels very fragile. Why repressions are continuing till now? Because Lukashenko knows that Belarusians haven't forgiven, haven't forgotten what was happened in Belarus. And actually Lukashenko is behaving as if still hundreds of thousands of people are standing in front of his palace.

And now my country is living like in Stalin's time, under political terror. Every single day people are arrested for the smallest things actually, for comment on Instagram, for solidarity with Ukraine, reading independent news, even speaking Belarusian language, our official language became a tool of resistance. There are over 1,200 political prisoners in Belarus.

Among them are at least 200 women. They're elderly and even seriously ill, and people are tortured, people held in complete isolation, like my husband, as you mentioned, from whom I haven't heard for more than two years. I'm even not sure if he is alive. And the regime wants to break not just the prisoners, but their families too. They're punishing every act of solidarity. But at the same time, you know, Belarus is being pulled deeper into Russia's control,

and a lot now depends on what happens in Ukraine. But despite all these difficulties and repressions, people continue to fight. Of course, we cannot see big rallies on the streets because of all these repressions, but the fight continues under-crownedly in the country and more openly by those who had to flee Belarus who live in exile. For people like you, so it takes place that you feel the opposition is there in an underground way in Belarus or abroad for those that may be in exile like you.

But I do want to get to some of the aspects. I want to get to your relationship with your husband in just a moment and what you hear, but you brought up about the fact that Belarus Lukashenko, the leader, is an ally of Vladimir Putin and Belarus has supported Russia in the war in Ukraine. Over the past weekend we have seen that meeting, that stark photograph that was on so many newspapers of President Zelensky of Ukraine sitting opposite President Trump of the states at the funeral of Pope Francis and that meeting that took place since then. US President Donald Trump has said he thinks Vladimir Zelensky is willing to give up Crimea to Russia as part of a peace deal. That's despite Kiev's previous rejections of any such proposal.

I'd like your thoughts on that. First of all, I have to say that Belarusian people, Belarusian nation is fully on their side of Ukraine. And here we have to divide Lukashenko, who became a co-aggressor in this war and provided our territories to attack our Ukrainian neighbors and Belarusian people who are supporting Ukrainians, Belarusian military volunteers fighting in Ukraine shoulder to shoulder with the Ukrainians. And of course, nobody more than Ukraine and Belarus want this peace. And the Belarusian government, for me to be specific, who has supported Russia in the war in Ukraine.

And we haven't got any analysis or specifics on exactly how Belarusian people stack up, whether it's in support of Russia or Ukraine. But I take your point on that. But to the point of the US president? Look, I have to say that new US administration brings new opportunities, but also new risks. What matters most is where this strength is directed. It must be directed against the real threat, Putin's Russia. You know, the US has always been defender of freedom and democracy, and we need strong and principled America that continues to support Ukraine,

maintains pressure on Russia, and stands firm against Lukashenko's regime. And the last thing we need is for dictators like Putin and Lukashenko to feel emboldened, and they thrive on division in the West. But do you do you feel just getting to that specific point of ceding Crimea, of giving up Crimea that has been floated by Donald Trump to Russia as part of a peace deal? Do you feel that emboldens a Putin or a Lukashenko?

Or do you think it is a viable path to peace? Crimea is Ukrainian land and they are giving their lives, you know, for this land. And Ukraine is not just a cake that can be cut in pieces and this piece goes to Russia, this piece goes to Ukraine. It's a sovereign country and the people of this country want all their lands back. And of course, any hesitation of the West is perceived as weakness by the dictators. And they think if they cut this piece now, so they will go further and further. What will be the next lands they would like, you know, to, you know, so-called restore?

Will it be Lithuania, Poland and Belarus? So if you give dictator a finger to bite, they will bite it to the shoulder. So you say no to ceding Crimea? Absolutely. It's a Ukrainian land and first of all we have to count Ukrainians' interests because it's not Ukraine, you know who gave up their lands It's an aggressor who came and took it with strength So let me and that was 11 years ago, but obviously in the papers again today because of

Mr. Trump Speaking to Vladimir Zelensky. Let me turn to your husband. You mentioned you haven't seen him in two years Let's turn to your husband. You mentioned you haven't seen him in two years when he was arrested. You fled to Lithuania with both of your children and just a backpack, I believe, to start this new life as a political, in political opposition to Lukashenko. Do you get any information about your husband? What are you told? Actually, my husband is in jail for five years already. And last two years, he's kept in comunicado. Maybe many people even have never heard this word. But it means that a person is kept in full isolation. No lawyer is allowed to visit him no letters, supposedly, are delivered no information at

all. I don't know where he is, in what physical state he is. And, you know, of course, it's a huge burden on the shoulders of relatives, not knowing where are they beloved, where are their friends and relatives. But the regime wants to break those people in prisons. They want to persuade them that they're abandoned. Nobody cares about them. Look, lawyer is not visiting you, nobody is sending letters to you, so the world has forgotten about you. And they want them to stop believing that the world is fighting for them. Of course, it is difficult. I'm talking to my children every day explaining, especially to my younger daughter, that your daddy is in prison and we don't know when we will see him.

But you know, we are doing everything possible to release our people, to release all those heroes who are kept behind bars. And how do you do that? I mean, it feels like there's this wall between knowing anything about what has happened to him. You're in Lithuania, you're obviously pushing for his release, but how do you even try to make a crack in that wall? I'm absolutely sure that these walls that are built on fear and repressions will be ruined. But for this, we need consistency from our democratic allies.

We need consistency from democratic forces of Belarus. Like, don't leave Belarus for one day later because attention span is rather short. And sometimes people think that, oh, there are no railways on the streets, maybe everything is fine in the country. And our task is to be voice of Belarusians who are silenced. It's my duty to speak on international forums, meet with leaders, give interviews, not just because I enjoy spotlight, but because I have responsibility to those who cannot speak freely. And our fight is not about hope.

We don't think that somebody will come and release our people, release our country. It's everyday hard work of hundreds of thousands of Belarusians who continue to fight from inside and from outside. You know that people even in the Lukashenko's regime, they are providing us very valuable information from the heart of this regime. For example, how sanctions are circumvented

or how regime is militarizing our economy and providing different equipment for Russian attack on Ukraine. And that's why this regime has to feel responsibility for this, for these crimes, for crimes against humanity, for migration crisis on the border, for attack in Ukraine. And we actually, of course... Are you saying that you get information from inside the government of Lukashenko? Yeah, that's right. You know, very brave people in Lukashenko's regime, they might be put to death penalty for the leaking of information, but they are doing this. Because even in people in the regime who seems loyal, you know, to him, they want changes

in Belarus because we understand that Lukashenko is selling our country to Russia. They are, we call it creep and occupation. We see the process of falsification in Belarus. This regime together with Russia, they want to erase everything Belarusian from our land. Let me turn back to your family again. You mentioned your daughter trying to very much keep your husband's memory alive. I was also reading like you are a different woman now than you were when your husband was arrested, you are now a leader within the world, speaking out for Belarus and I suppose one person who perhaps you can identify with very much is the wife of the late Alexei Navalny, who you met with.

That's Julia, another critic of an autocratic leader. What was that like to meet with somebody like her? Because it's a very small group that you belong to? Of course I admire and prevar of Julia Navalny and I recall our first act actually meeting in Munich. It was in the day of Alexei Navalny's murder and of course I supported her as a woman, first of all. We have maybe similar situation, but the context of our fight is, you know, is rather different. But the less, you know, if life put any woman in circumstances where she has to fight, where she has to defend her children or her country. The scale is different, but nevertheless, women are just standing and do what is right, what is necessary to do.

So I, of course, wish Yulia all the best. I wish her strength because it's so difficult. It's so scary to fight against dictators whose hands are rather long, honestly speaking, and we, all the activists or opposition politicians, we are constant targets of these regimes, but we every day are overstepping our fears, overstepping difficulties and continue our fight. Do you feel safe in Lithuania? stepping difficulties and continue our fight. Do you feel safe in Lithuania? As I said, you know, we are all the targets of the regime.

But you if you think every day that you are a target, that you are not safe, so you will try to hide anyway, you know, escaping any, any fear. But I hope that governments of free world of democratic countries, they have possibilities to protect all those who fled repressions and just I sometimes forget in what position I am and just doing what I have to do. Do you think Alexander Lukashenko is still underestimating you as a woman? I think that this regime realized the power of women in Belarus because it was really the women who were on the front line of our rallies. Women showed the peacefulness of our present. Wonderful women in white with flowers stood up in front of this brutal KGB,

this Amun people, you know, showing that we don't want to fight. We just want changes in our country. We are fed up with this dictator. We are pro-European country and we want to go further. We don't want Lukashenka to drag our country back into Soviet Union past. Just give the people right to choose our future ourselves. I think that Lukashenka's regime was surprised by power of Belarusian women. It's not only about me, it's about all the women in Belarus. Until now, we see that women are more effective in long distance, in marathons, and many women are leading in different initiatives, NGOs, just trying to keep Belarus high on agenda

to help repress, to strengthen our national identity. And I'm actually so proud to see an increasing number of women leaders in the world. And I believe that women leaders, this world will be more peaceful and protected. The Belarusian political opposition activist Zviatlana Tikhanovskaya, thank you very much for joining us on Women's Hour. What life advice would you like to pass on to your children? Remember that failure is not a sign of defeat, but an opportunity to learn and grow.

What challenges would you like to prepare them for? Death is part of life and we need to talk more about it. Dear Daughter is a podcast from the BBC World Service, sharing words of wisdom from parents all over the world. This is who we are. This is what we do. Dear Daughter, listen now wherever you get your BBC podcasts. Thank you. Now to a new BBC panorama investigation,

which has found baby food pouches from some of the leading brands have been failing to meet the nutritional needs of developing children and have been misleading parents on their suitability. If you're a parent or a carer it's likely you've used one of these little pouches. They fill the supermarket aisles and they're used as meals or snacks for babies and toddlers. But there are a growing group of experts in nutrition and child health that are warning against using baby food pouches regularly. Catherine Nye is a reporter for BBC Panorama and has been investigating. Her program is now up on iPlayer. We also have Charlotte

Sterling-Reed who's a baby and child nutritionist and author who also appears in the program. Welcome to you both. Thank you. Good to have you both in studio. So Catherine, let's talk about these products. Some people will be very familiar with them, but others perhaps less so. Yeah. So these little pouches exploded onto the market about 20 years ago in the UK. They come in fruit savoury, yoghurt versions. If you've seen them, you'll know them. But if you don't, they're like a little handy pouch with a little plastic spout on the top.

The food inside is heat processed and so that means things like strawberry yogurt or even spaghetti bolognese can sit on the shelf for months. They're extremely widely used. It's difficult to find a parent who hasn't. I've got two little ones myself and I've used a lot of them but a growing group of experts on nutrition and child health are warning against using these Regule. And why did you decide to investigate them? To be honest I started looking at the back of the packs. I was wondering, I was an inquisitive mother let's say, I was looking at the back of the packs looking first probably at the the sugar levels, becoming a bit more aware of that, and

then I did some more reading. I'm a journalist so I went online to try and find out more and to be honest I was disappointed with what I could find out so I decided that I needed to do this. And so you began to investigate. What problems did you find? Well we spoke to leading experts and significantly we commissioned an accredited UK laboratory to independently test 18 of these pouches and look at their nutritional value. The brands we looked at were the big players in the UK, those that dominate the market. So that is Ella's Kitchen, Piccolo, Heinz, Little Freddy, plus Aldi and Lidl because they're the supermarkets that do a full range of these pouches.

And as you can imagine, some brands perform better on some measurements than others, but we found a number of problems. We found fruit pouches from all of the brands we looked at containing more sugar than the NHS recommends a one-year-old should have in an entire day. We tested a fruit pouch from brand Piccolo in which virtually all of the vitamin C had been lost during the manufacturing process. We found dozens of pouches being marketed to babies at four months old including by brands Ella's Kitchen, Piccolo, Aldi's Mammy Arrange and that goes against very clear recommendations of both the UK government and the World Health

Organisation that babies should only be fed milk until around six months old. And our testing of savoury pouches found from Heinz, Lidl and Piccolo, these pouches that are often used as meal replacements, found those to contain less than 5% of the iron than infant needs each day. If people are just hearing about this for the first time and they're a parent or a carer, they may be concerned, worried and I'm wondering what the experts told you in relation to your investigation. Well we spoke to a lot of experts and we spoke to some leading people in this field,

academics, dietitians, the World Health Organization, the government's former chief nutritionists, and I would say they were united in a lot of things, but they were really united in the fact that they don't think parents should feel guilty about that. And that's a really important part of this investigation. I've used them, a lot of people have used them. What they point to is what they say, are misleading claims made for many of these products by the companies marketing them, making them sound healthier than they are and making a lot of parents feel like they're making a healthier choice than they are. The health halo as we hear about sometimes. Yeah. But it's really

interesting and we'll get into as well some of the details with Charlotte but I'm wondering how the brands have responded. Yeah so all the brands told the BBC they're committed to infant health and provide quality nutritional products that meet current UK regulations and contain no added sugar. They all say, interestingly, that they're only intended to be used as a complementary part of a child's weaning diet. In fact, the market leader, Ella's Kitchen, said they should be used sparingly

and should not replace homemade food. And one very significant thing from the brands, that's regarding those three companies I mentioned that we looked at that sold products recommended for four months old. Now during our investigation, the brand Ella's Kitchen, the market leader, announced that by March next year, they'll only recommend pouches for babies older than six months to align with UK guidance.

Then when we contacted Piccolo about our investigation, they told us they're also changing their labelling from four months to six months. And since we contacted Aldi, they have said they'll make the change to in line with other brands and retailers. And that means these three big companies currently selling to four months old will soon not be. So there is changes that will be a first because of this. And I want to mention again about regulation Catherine with you in a moment, but I'm going to jump over to Charlotte because she is a baby and child nutritionist. What are the potential consequences of using them too frequently? So using them too frequently, as we've seen from this investigation, could result in children not getting enough when it comes to nutrition. But there's also another side of this that

I'm actually quite passionate talking about, which is around texture development, the development of eating and or motor skills for babies and toddlers. The pouches have to be a certain texture. You can't get lots of lumps and bumps in these pouches. If parents are relying on them as a food for babies regularly, it's not going to be helping them with the actual progression of eating. Weaning is essentially supposed to be teaching babies how to eat and sucking foods out of a pouch is not the way for us to do this. Babies should be given textured food, they should be able to see food, smell food, they should be eating foods off of spoons, using utensils and having plenty of finger foods, which is not going to happen if parents are relying solely on these products.

Because the spout is a thing, thing. Talk to me about that Charlotte. So yes the spout is one of the biggest problems actually with these foods. Which is just at the top of the pouch. Which is at the top of the pouch and it allows babies to be able to suck food directly from the pouch. It means that the food inside can only ever be a certain size and texture so that it is not a choking hazard so that babies can suck directly from the pouch and this is a problem because it limits the texture babies are exposed to. And as I've mentioned, texture development is very important as part of the weaning journey. It also can be detrimental for the teeth, especially if babies are sucking

very high sugar products that have been blended so the sugar is readily available. If they're sucking these through a pouch, it means that the teeth can get bathed in some of those free sugars and that is also not something we want to be seeing. What about Catherine, I was mentioning there the four month old to six month old, how important is that two month period? Absolutely really important you know we talk a lot as healthcare professionals about seeing the signs of readiness in babies. And these are that babies should be able to sit up, hold their head and neck steady, they should be able to see food, they should be able to pick it up and bring it

to their mouth by themselves, and they should be able to swallow food without pushing it back out with their tongue. Now those three signs are likely things that we will see at around six months of age. So the four months is unlikely that babies will be showing us those signs of readiness. So we do want to encourage parents to be waiting until babies are developmentally ready. And the problem with having from four months on pouches is that a lot of parents will assume that it is therefore okay to offer them to babies from four months of age, especially if they haven't got advice elsewhere on what is an appropriate time to be offering solid foods to babies.

I want to come back Catherine to the regulation here so misleading is what was said by the experts but the marketing yes that the marketing was misleading but they're not breaking the law any of these brands. No. The regulations, the current UK regulations that cover baby foods were written in 2003. And to be honest, that's what a lot of campaigners and health professionals have a problem with because these things came onto the market after that. And so a lot of people would argue that they just don't cover the current situation. And when you go into the supermarket, there's wall-to-wall pouches and they're not, they haven't been considered fully in these regulations. There has been work done on this in the past. Since 2019, both Public Health England and the World Health Organization have made recommendations for changes needed to these pouches, but until now they've largely been ignored.

They want quite a few things. They want a ban on that marketing until six months old. They want restrictions on health claims on packet. And they want a front, just talking regarding what you were just talking about with the spout, they want a front of pack warning never to eat from the spout and They also want labels on high sugar pouches warning not to eat them as snacks You'd wonder why they have a spout if they're never to be eaten from the spout well that did come up a lot in this in this investigation because

There there is sometimes wording from on the packet Recommending to use a spoon and quite a few of the companies do have that but parents say it's not always that clear and you're asked a lot, well why is there a spout if it's not to be eaten from? So if people are to use them, I'll use the word sparingly, that one of the brands said, Catherine, to you. Charlotte, what should they be substituting instead? So, ideally, what weaning is about is about moving babies onto family foods. And this is something I'm a huge advocate for. We want to be encouraging babies to be eating foods

that are being eaten by the rest of the family, bringing them into family meal times, offering them foods that have plenty of textures, plenty of variety, flavours. This is all so important for the development of their oral motor skills, for them accepting foods and also for their future patterns of eating. Babies very young age are actually developing preferences and they are developing patterns of eating that can last a lifetime. So actually what we feed young babies is very important for their future health, for their future dietary patterns. We would like to see parents be offering them the kinds of foods they're eating themselves but without the added sugar and added salt. And you

know I know I keep talking about this but for me it's the texture development is so important. If we don't give babies textures and there's actually research that shows if babies aren't exposed to textures, to lumps and bumps in their food before nine months of age, it can actually delay their acceptance of those foods and mean that they're not actually efficient at eating. Thank you very much Charlotte Stirling-Reed, baby and child nutritionist and author who appears in the program. The Catra Nigh has been a reporter for her on BBC Panorama. It's up on iPlayer right now. All about baby food pouches and the nutritional value of them.

Thanks very much. Some of you have been getting in touch following Paula Radcliffe, getting in touch. Her daughter was overcome an illness and she ran the marathon, she had a rare form of ovarian cancer. Liz got in touch about her child overcoming adversity. She says, my eldest is dyslexic. And at one point, a headmaster called him stupid. Finding a way forward for a bright,

curious child who was hampered by not being able to read was hard. But we persevered. And thanks to audiobooks ignited a love of stories. His turning point came at 13 when he said to me as he lay on the sofa with a book and when I said lunch was ready he replied that he'd come when he'd finished the chapter. I stood in the kitchen and I wept for joy. He went on to receive the most improved that year. He's now 32 and has a master's in mechanical engineering. Stupid he was not. He persisted and succeeded.

What a lovely story, Liz. Thank you for getting in touch 84844. If you would like to get in touch with your story of your child overcoming adversity and that feeling that you got as you saw them do it. I want to turn to Virginia Dufray and the death of Virginia Dufray. She accused Jeffrey Epstein, you remember, and the death of Virginia Dufray. She accused Jeffrey Epstein, you remember, and the Duke of York and made headline news over the weekend. The 41 year old was living in Australia. She was described by her family as a fierce

warrior in the fight against sexual abuse and sex trafficking. Virginia told the BBC she was recruited in Florida by Ghislaine Maxwell and then abused by the US financier Epstein. Being in her words, she said, passed around like a platter of fruit to his associates. In 2001, at the age of 17, she said Jeffrey Epstein brought her to London and introduced her to Prince Andrew, who she claimed sexually abused her three times. The Prince, who has denied all claims against him, reached an out of court settlement with her in 2022, which contained no admission of liability or apology. I'm joined by Harriet Wistridge, who's founder and director of the Centre for Women's Justice and also by my colleague,

the BBC's Katie Watson, who is in Perth, Australia today. Katie, good to have you with us. You've written an article for the BBC about Virginia Dufray and her death. What has the reaction been to it in her adopted country of Australia? So it's very much been covered here. She came here with her Australian husband. She's got had three kids here and of course with accusations against a royal family that's also created some interest with UK links here. I was outside the farm where she died there were flowers that had been left her neighbor had said that you know he talked about how very sad it was and there's a general sense

here that she was a woman who in her final months she was very troubled that her passing was was a shock really to many people here. I mentioned just very briefly a little of the statement which her family released. What have they said about her death? Yeah, so they confirmed that she killed herself. As you said, said that she was this fierce warrior in the fight against sexual abuse and sex trafficking. She was the light that lifted so many survivors, they said. But in the end, the toll of abuse is so heavy

that it became unbearable for Virginia to handle its weight. Despite all the adversity she faced, she shone so bright and she'll be missed beyond measure. Going back to the life of Virginia Dufray, many will know her after the allegations about Jeffrey Epstein and Prince Andrew. But earlier in her life, before that time period, she also had a very chaotic and exploited childhood. Yeah that's right. So she was born in California then

relocated to Florida. She said at seven she was sexually abused by a family member and at that point her childhood was quickly taken away and then she talked about being becoming a victim of sex trafficking when she was a teenager she was in and out of foster care later and at 14 she was living on the streets then working as a teenage spa attendant at Donald Trump's Palm Beach Club that's when she was approached by Epstein's girlfriend Ghislaine Maxwell and was offered the chance to train as a massage therapist.

And then, of course, the rest of the story and the accusations and what she faced then was what thrust her into the spotlight before eventually meeting her then-husband, Robert, and relocating to Australia. Why did she decide to go public as a survivor back in 2011? So in the family statement after her death they said that it was when she held her newborn daughter in her arms that Virginia realized she had to fight back against those who'd

abused her and so many others. So she came forward after Epstein had made a secret deal to avoid federal prosecution the year before and really she became a very prominent advocate and supporter feeling that as a mother and as a daughter it was really important for her to continue the fight and to be able to make sure that other people wouldn't go through the same thing. And the settlement, she got a settlement from Prince Andrew in 2022. What more details do we know about that? So yeah, the actual amount was confidential, but certainly there were rumours of the amount of being around £10-12 million.

And what we know is that some of that, Prince Andrew said that some of that would be donated to help victims. So she set up in 2015 a charity called Saw and Speak Out, Act and Reclaim and she said, you know, again, it was this responsibility as a mother, a wife and a daughter to carry on speaking out. She got involved in the Me Too movement. She continued talking and she was outspoken until the very end. And I think that's the point of this, her charity, that that legacy would continue. The BBC's Katie Watson and Perth, thank you very much. Let me turn to Harriet Whitridge and just as I do to give another little bit of context about Virginia Dufray. She claimed Prince Andrew sexually abused her three times,

the Prince denied all claims against him but reached a significant out-of-court settlement that we're hearing there from Katie in 2022, which included a statement in which she expressed regret for his association with Epstein, but contained no admission of liability or apology. And he donated, as we heard, did you phrase charity to help victims of abuse and pledged to demonstrate his regret for his association with Epstein by supporting the fight against the evils of sex trafficking. Harriet,

her family described her as a fierce warrior. How would you describe her from what you know? Yes, I mean, from what I know of her and what I've watched over the last few years, I would say that's a very apt description and their statement is very powerful. To speak out about being a victim of abuse is extremely hard for anyone to do and to pursue charges and hold abusers to account is very hard. Where you are dealing with some of the most powerful men in the world, that is so much harder.

And, you know, she is really quite an icon for having held her own and pursued these allegations obviously at great cost to herself but she really is a warrior and a heroine I'd say to victims and survivors around the world for what she did. But her death of course course, will give so many people pause. And I'm wondering also about the effect it might have on other survivors. Yes, I mean, obviously, that is the downside when you do speak out and when you are exposed in the media and the amount of flak that she's had, particularly because of the

people she's named and she's been accused of being a fake and a fantasist and all sorts of things that many victims of abuse are accused of, but because it's been played out so publicly all over the place that that has amplified it. I mean, I, you know, that is a terrible cost that she has paid and that we have seen many other women paid, certainly with the women that I've worked with, you know, it can take a terrible toll. However, it is also something that I know women who do that do because they want it to stop happening to other women. And that is why we should really applaud her and also do all we can to take steps to stop the

kind of backlash that she received and to challenge those that seek to demean and diminish women who do speak out. So we all have a duty as well to support women who who take those very courageous steps to speak out and to recognize their courage and bravery you know they are not amongst some of the most courageous when you could possibly have in the world when somebody speaks out against the most powerful man and says, I'm not going to be cowed, I will hold you to account. So I think, you know, we have to look at it in that way and we have to find ways to support those who take this courageous stance. I want to thank you, Harriet Whistridge, also for joining us. She's the founder and the director of the Center for Women's Justice and Katie Watson who is also with us. Her piece is up on BBC Online. On Tomorrow's Woman's Arm we will be hearing from the director of a haunting new abortion drama, it's called April, and it tells the story of the situation

for women in the country of Georgia, a country we don't often hear much about, and London grammar frontwoman Hannah Reid will be with women in the country of Georgia, a country we don't often hear much about, and London grammar frontwoman Hannah Reid will be with me in the studio to talk about creativity and motherhood. And just in relation to Virginia Dufray, if there is something that you feel distressed by hearing about in that conversation, too, please go to the BBC's Action Line where you will see help and support. That's all for today's Women's Hour. Join us again next time. Documentaries that bring you closer to the heart of the story and go beyond the headlines From undiscovered truths and hidden stories to the biggest issues of the day We go further and unravel the untold. Well, let's talk about borrowing costs and whether the Chancellor has a problem

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