Woman's Hour - PCOS misinformation, Sutara Gayle, Raving

Episode Date: December 6, 2024

Influencers on TikTok and Instagram are selling fake ‘cures’ for Polycystic Ovary Syndrome (PCOS), a hormonal condition, according to a new BBC investigation. The BBC World Service tracked the most-watched videos with a #PCOS hashtag on TikTok and Instagram and found that half of them spread false information. Jacqui Wakefield, a BBC 100 Women reporter, has been investigating and joins Anita Rani to discuss. Sutara Gayle is an actor and reggae artist. She fuses music with memories of her eventful life in a new show: The Legends of Them. From hearing her radio debut whilst in Holloway Prison on remand, to the Brixton uprisings in 1985 that were sparked by the shooting of her sister, the show explores a hugely varied and at times deeply moving portrayal of her life, and the women who have shaped it. Sutara joins Anita in the studio. This year’s Radio 4 Christmas Appeal with St Martin-in-the-Fields to support those who are experiencing, or who are at risk of, homelessness across the UK is now underway. One of the charities your donations have helped this year is called Rowan Alba and it runs residential services in Edinburgh. We hear from resident Elvira, psychologist Sarah Phillips and Anita speaks to Tracey Stewart from Rowan Alba. To find out more, visit the Radio 4 Christmas Appeal website.A judge has ruled that MMA fighter Conor McGregor must pay the legal costs of Nikita Hand, who accused him of raping her in a hotel in Dublin in 2018. We explore the impact the ruling has had in Ireland with BBC journalist Aoife Walsh.On yesterday’s programme, the DJ Annie Mac spoke about the healing power of raving. Milly Day was listening and got in touch to tell us about her thesis on the subject. She joins Anita.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Emma Pearce

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Good morning and welcome to Woman's Hour. Now, on yesterday's programme, Annie Mack was on discussing raving at a reasonable time and our joint love of the dance floor well, listener Millie was listening, pulled over and got

in touch as she's done her thesis on this very subject on the euphoric church-like experience of the rave. She dropped us an email yesterday and will be on the programme shortly. We do love it when you get in touch with your life experience and on that we're going to be hearing live music from actor, singer and reggae star Sithara Gayle today. You may know her as Lorna G. She'll be telling me all about her

powerful show based on very dramatic events in her own life. One point she reflects on is when she saw her mother as a woman and not just her mum for the very first time. So has this happened in your life? When was the moment you saw your mum as a woman? A full woman with her own history and her own story and not just your mum. We would love for you to get in touch and some of you may get your stories and experiences read out on the program this morning get in touch in the usual way the number is 84844 you can email me via our website you can also whatsapp me on 03700100444 and if you'd like to follow us on social media it's at bbc woman's hour but first to a bbc report that has looked into influencers on TikTok and Instagram that are selling fake cures for polycystic ovary syndrome or PCOS. This is a hormonal condition that affects an estimated one in 10 women globally.

The BBC World Service tracks the most watched videos with a PCOS hashtag on TikTok and Instagram and found that half of them spread false information. Well, Jackie Wakefield, the BBC 100 Women and Global Disinformation reporter, has been investigating and joins me now. Welcome, Jackie. I think we should start by explaining what polycystic ovary syndrome is, really. Yeah, well, polycystic ovarian syndrome or PCOS is a chronic hormonal condition and it has a really wide set of symptoms. It's really not one size fits all. So that can include acne, hair loss, body hair growth. It can affect your periods, painful periods, and it can also affect your fertility. And how easy is it to be diagnosed? It's really tough because there's no consistent set of symptoms. So a lot of women may not even

know that they have PCOS. And then when they present with symptoms, it can sometimes be really difficult to tell if it's PCOS or not. So it's a real issue with this particular condition that sometimes it's just very hard to tell until you do scan the ovaries and find out if you've got it or not. And so if it's difficult to know whether you've got it, get proper treatments, people are looking for information wherever they can find it. So how did you come across this story? Yeah, so I myself am very addicted to social media and TikTok. Are we all? And I was literally just scrolling on my phone and I've been seeing a lot of these videos claiming to cure our hormones and they were all in relation to PCOS. And PCOS is something that

I'd heard of a lot. A lot of my friends have it and it's something that they've really struggled with. So I was like, okay, I know that there's not a cure for PCOS. I don't have PCOS, but I've received maybe like, I've received like 10 videos in a day from all these different influencers and they were massive, like millions of views. So I was like, okay, what's actually going on here? What are they claiming? And could this be real? Why are women turning to these videos in the first place? So pretty much all of the women I spoke to and a lot of women with PCOS generally really do struggle to get taken seriously by either GPs or other doctors or even family and friends. So someone when I spoke to said that they'd presented at the GP and had just been told to come back when they wanted to get pregnant, even though they were really struggling with the symptoms.

Another woman said that she wasn't getting her period at all. She was telling friends and family about it. And they're like, oh, isn't that a good thing? You don't have to have your period. So women are constantly getting dismissed for their pain and these symptoms. And a lot of them just wanted to go to a place where they felt like it was getting taken seriously as a condition. Yeah, searching for answers.

Exactly. And there's seemingly a lot of answers on social media. So what are these videos and TikTok and Instagram messages and videos showing us? What are they telling people? So it all centers around these influencers claiming that they have a cure, that they can heal your PCOS, so that they've healed their own PCOS. Now, the issue here is there is no cure for PCOS, unfortunately. You can manage symptoms. So some of the things that they're saying is certain supplements can cure or help

heal PCOS. Restrictive diets can help with PCOS. They're selling coaching programs and other kind of lifestyle interventions alongside of products, which they claim will be able to cure PCOS. Okay, well, we'll get into that in a a minute but you've spoken to 14 women globally who've watched these videos. Let's have a listen here's one woman you spoke to called Kate about her experience. Influencers definitely do sort of sell a dream when they sell you these supplements or they sell you workout plans or advice generally and people are desperate so they take that advice. I have myself tried inositol, I've tried spearmint teas and lots of the exercise and diet advice that they've said in the past and it is really exhausting and disheartening when it doesn't work because you are sort of promised that and you try so many

things and you think eventually something's going to work. Like she said there she's desperate so that's one person that you spoke to. How common is Kate's experience and what have other women been telling you? It's so common. Every single woman I spoke to had spent hundreds, if not thousands of pounds on supplements and other unproven products. The other thing that was really common was, as Kate said there, a lot of these influences convince you to go on diets. So a lot of the women had really damaged relationships to their bodies and had developed some disordered eating habits as a result of following influencer advice. And a lot of them felt that it was their fault that they couldn't get better. They saw these influencers who were saying, oh, yeah, I did this and now I've healed my PCOS.

And they felt it was their own fault that they couldn't do the same. So a lot of these influencers I understand are sort of posting videos that are selling fake cures and supplements, even supplements. So is this about making money or do some of them genuinely believe that they're offering a service? I think it's a little bit of both. It's hard to say exactly what they're thinking. We don't know.

But nearly all of the videos that I saw, which were spreading false information or claiming to have a cure, were actually selling a product alongside of that. So it was a financial interest. But who's to say? These women do say that they have PCOS, the influencers. So they could also believe in these products it may have worked for them once again there's not a lot of evidence around

different um PCOS treatments so perhaps it works perhaps it's AR you know who knows like it's one of those it's so difficult isn't it I'm trying to put my mind in the room as someone who does scroll and kind of think picks up tips and life hacks and as we all do on social media. How much of it is sort of misinformation and how much of it is advice in terms of diet and exercise that can be helpful in dealing with PCOS? Because I understand that there is there is some things to suggest that you can aid PCOS with diet and exercise. Yeah, there's certainly some influences sharing really helpful advice and just sharing what personally works for them as some tips and tricks. And yeah, diet and exercise and lifestyle improvements can help with PCOS. But then what we saw is when it kind of goes into very extreme diets, which have no evidence of helping with PCOS.

And selling those supplements. Exactly. So what have TikTok and Meta got to say about it? Yeah so they both are working on debunking health misinformation across the platform and are committed to doing that. Jackie thank you very much for coming in and speaking to us about that. Jackie Wakefield there and if you're worried about, then please do speak to your GP as a first port of call. Thank you, Jackie. I'm asking you when the first time you saw your mother as a woman was, and someone's been in touch and anonymous saying, I saw my mum as a real woman when I turned 40

and went through an awful divorce being a mum of four myself. 84844 is the number to text. Sitara Gale is an actor, singer and reggae star. You may know her as Lorna G. She fuses her music with memories of her eventful life in a new show, The Legends of Them. From hearing her radio debut whilst in Holloway Prison to the Brixton uprisings in 1985

that were sparked by the shooting of her sister. The show explores a hugely varied and at times deeply moving portrayal of her life and the woman, the women I should say, who've shaped it. The legends of them opened at London's Royal Court Theatre last night and Sathara is with us this morning. Welcome. Good morning. How are you feeling? How was last was last night yeah last night was amazing it was a it was a great celebration you know they were um the audience were great it was you know very nerve-wracking going out there for the first time on the royal court stage in front of an audience um what was it like when the applause came at the end what was to explain the feeling it was just

a relief it was like okay yeah they got it they got it yay I've read it I read the script last night there's so much to talk about there's the rhythm to it it's a very powerful story why did you so much happens in your life yeah a. A lot of very dramatic and traumatic events. Why did you decide to put your life into a play? Because of those reasons. I looked back at it and, you know, I said, wow, OK, yeah, this has been a very, very colourful life. And I saw how a lot of my trajectory, you know, narrated my lifestyle and narrated how the decisions that i was going to make in life

it was a lot to do with oh what had happened in the past or how i saw things and so yeah sometimes that stops you you know when you look at your you look at your past you you look at what you've done, where you've been, and sometimes to move forward, it kind of cripples you a little bit. And so that's why I got to a point where I said, actually, I cannot be defined by my past. You know, these things happen, these things, you know, and then you have to find a point where you move through it. And that was why I started to write these stories. And as I was writing the stories, more and more things came up.

Yeah, you make a choice. Yeah. You can make a choice or you made a choice about you wanting to live your life. Yeah. And there's a couple of turning points. But one of them, a key turning point, was hearing your music play on the radio whilst you were serving time in Holloway Prison. Tell me about that. Yeah, whilst I was on remand.

Yeah, as a teenager, as I said, colourful past, got myself into all sorts of trouble. And one of those times, my dream was to be a performer, was to, you know, go on stage. And I got a chance to make this record, my first record, which was in 1984. Tell us about the record. The record was three weeks gone.

I'm with Gyro and I come three weeks gone and my Gyro hasn't come. For the radio, to translate to the audience. Yes, yes, to translate to, you know. And it was just all about, you know, waiting for my Gyro, basically. And it was, you know, it was true events. And the record really became popular.

So at that time, when I first heard it, Tony Williams on BBC Radio London played it. And yeah, I was in some kind of trouble for some pettiness, and that's where I first heard my track. And how did you feel? Oh, my gosh. Shamed. How old were you? You said teenager, but how old? Yeah, I would have been, well, it wasn't really a teenager.

I would have been 20. Okay, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, I would have been 20 20 okay yeah yeah yeah okay so yeah it would have been 20 yeah so shame yeah a lot of um a lot of shame and just like if the the the ground could have opened up and swallowed me i was like and you know and the girls that were in there at this time were like oh my gosh yeah now you're on the radio. And they were banging the windows. You're going to be famous. And I was like, oh my gosh, look where I am. And hearing my dream and I'm not able to do anything but stay between these walls.

And that was one of the biggest wake-up calls for me was I had to choose, was I had to choose. Am I going to choose this path, go down that path, or am I going to go down this path of following my dream? Now I know that I have a record that can be played on the radio and people are liking my... Let me choose this. So it was a really big turning point for me. A sliding doors moment.

But it's seeing it, because that happens to people in various ways in lots of lives but actually doing it is the the tough bit right so how do you actually change your life it's hard it's hard because we were so conditioned yes you know so um it wasn't without its failures you know but each each time I have a drive and this is why I have to big up the legends in my life. And so I had to write about them because I've had guides. I have had guides. Who are the legends that you talk about? Legends of my mother.

Yeah. Legends of my sister, Cherry Gross. Well, let's talk about Cherry because, you know, you made a choice whilst you were hearing your record in prison. But actually life was going to throw some real challenges your way and one of those was your sister Cherry, Cherry Gross who is a character in the play listeners may recognize her name because she was shot by a police officer in 1985 and was left paralyzed from the waist down sadly died in 2011 in fact her son who the police had been looking for, was never charged.

Why did it feel important to include her in the play? Because everyone knows Cherry as Cherry Gross, the lady that got shot, what sparked the Brixton uprising, as we call it. We call it the Brixton Riot. And they don't know this woman as a human being they just know what they saw in the news and um you know i know her personally i felt what she was going through at the time it was it was um it was a crazy crazy. And also I had a life with her, with this beautiful woman.

She was such a pillar, you know, in my life, a real stone rock. Well, you say in the play that she was the good one and you were the bad, you were the naughty one. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I was the naughty one. If anything, it should have happened to me. But, you know, you say that, you know, at the time, that's what, you know, I was thinking, well, this woman, she's never committed a crime in her life. She's never done anything wrong in her life.

She was so good. And I always, I put her on a pedestal because that's how I felt about her and how she lived her life. She lived her life unpretentious. You know, she was just raw clear truthful and yeah and how did you as a family then cope with the public reaction to what happened it was hard and every i think all of us dealt with it in our own way there was times where we all got together because we grew as a family my mother always had us uh if there was any problems, we'd get around the dining table and we'd all have a meeting with all my brothers and sisters.

This was something that was an area currently now in our lives. And so sometimes that would happen. But I think each one of us, we were all on our own journey at the time as well. And we all dealt with it differently. And for me personally I found it so hard um and you know I had that just that kind of rebellious way already you know and and and and and then mistrust of the system anyway so this just heightened it and yeah it was there was a lot of anger a lot of rage And how do you feel about it now?

How do you deal with it now, now that you've gone on this journey that's brought you to this point? Yeah, how I deal with it now is I'm just very much in touch with my nephews and my nieces. We all gather together my niece rosemary cherry's daughter has a gathering every single sunday without fail rain storm or sleet she has everybody there on a sunday she cooks the biggest meals and we go and they play dominoes you know we have we have a little juice, you know, maybe a little fire water, you know, and we're playing the music. Exactly what happened at Cherry's house every weekend. Well, Cherry's son, Lee Lawrence, was on Woman's Hour

talking about his mum and his search for justice in 2020. And I should say that a jury inquest in 2014 found that police failures contributed to Cherry's death and that police failed to communicate properly and adequately check who was living at the property before the raid. Following that verdict, the Metropolitan Police Commissioner at the time, Sir Bernard Hogan Howe, apologised unreservedly for the shooting and the time it had taken to say sorry. You're obviously a very close family. Yes. And you mentioned that the play is called The Legends of Them and your mum is a big influence in your life. Euphemia.

Euphemia. Euphemia, what a beautiful name. It is, yeah. So tell us about her. She had eight children. She had eight children. Three was born in Jamaica. And then she sent for them when she came over to England, you know,

many years later. And she was just, my mama just knew her as a worker. She just worked tirelessly. She was a dressmaker. She made dresses and clothes for all kinds of people from all different walks of life. She was always having all different people come into the house for their fashion. And she was a fashionista herself.

Well, yeah, it comes across. Well, darling, you know, that's why I get it. I mean, come on now. You do look fabulous. We do like fashion, yeah. In the play, you speak in your mother's voice and we're going to hear you sing something which I can't wait. And she talks about the pride of dressing all of you.

You were the best dressed kids. Yes, yes. At the time, I didn't think so. Homemade gowns. Yeah, you know, you know, the homemade, you know, we even had homemade underwear slips and everything. I was like, yeah. But at the time, I didn't think so. But then when I look back, I realise, well, we were very, very lucky and blessed.

Sitara, I just have to share this story with you. There's photographs of my dad's sisters in the 70s sitting on a sofa in dresses in the same material as the sofa. There you go. So, you know. Wow. I can relate. What do you want people to take away from this play? You know, I wrote this play for, mainly for my community.

We've gone through a lot and I've seen a lot. I have seen a lot, probably things that I shouldn't have seen at such an early age and i'd love to i love for um people to come away with like you know you don't define yourself by your past you can't you know know who you are now and um not to live by others' opinions about you. There's such humanity. And also to just claim your own story, just stand in your own light and claim your own story and your own truth.

That's what I like people to do. If that sparks a conversation, it's an invitation. The play is just an invitation to come you've seen that one person's journey and many other people's journey but if it's an invitation to just to look at you stop and have a look at your life and claim it yeah very powerful to be able to do that um it's so i feel very privileged that we've managed to get you off stage after the first performance and come and talk to us about it. Thank you so much. And Legends of Them is on at the Royal Court Theatre in London until the 21st of December.

Wow. That was wonderful to experience in the studio. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. Now, this year's Radio 4 Christmas Appeal with St. Martin's in the Fields to support those who are experiencing or who are at risk of homelessness across the UK is now underway.

We wanted to bring you a story from a charity your donations have helped this year. It's called Rowan Albert and it runs residential services in Edinburgh. As Hugh Dennis reports, its women's project has started to employ in-house psychologists to support the residents. Sarah Phillips is one of those psychologists who's been helping Elvira. The oven's on, the table's set, and Elvira, a resident at the Rowan Alba Women's Hostel in Edinburgh, is making pizza. From scratch. Because it's a wet dough, you just add olive oil on top.

You add salt, just a sprinkle. Oregano and basil, just to give it some flavour. I love cooking all the time. It's a de-stressing thing for me. I worked in a lot of restaurants. It's one of the things that I really am passionate about. So when other people smile, it's like a victory for me. Elvira, now 35, was just beginning her chefing career when two and a half years ago her relationship broke down

and she found herself with nowhere to live. I had to just remove myself from the situation because every day it was just constant fighting. So I did phone the council and the council had told me to come here. Elvira has a diagnosis of complex PTSD and part of her condition means she can often feel very anxious. It was very difficult for me to start with. I was always in my room and I was suffering with severe panic attacks. Slowly I started to get used to the situation and I was like, actually, this is the best place for me.

And that's because the hostel is now offering Elvira sessions with an in-house psychologist. It's a new three-year post funded by the St Martin's Mental Health Fund and supported by your donations to the Christmas Appeal It feels much, much better because you have support in all angles so it's not just your accommodation but it's also your mental health and I had some things that I needed to go through

and she's actually helped me through that so I just feel blessed to be here. I'm Sarah Phillips, I'm a counselling psychologist and I'm employed by NHS Lothian. This works because we're bringing psychology to where it's needed. The nice thing about this post is I'm really embedded here. I'm coming in and I'm getting to know them very gradually, sitting, having cups of coffee, playing games with them, maybe going for a walk with them. We're building trust and engaging more. And Sarah says the longer term funding means they see the clients improving.

The three year funding really allows for the change to happen. It's really satisfying because we can see the progress. With Elvira, the progress is really obvious. I'm able to take her on a journey, a psychological journey that maybe I wouldn't be able to in maybe more mainstream services because of pressures of waiting lists and waiting times. And the only pressure that she and I have is her moving on from this service. So I'm mindful of, let's make sure we get this work done. When it's cooked, then I will take it out.

Back in the kitchen, and Sarah is joining Elvira and the staff for pizza. Oh, hello! How are you, Sarah? Elvira is now taking a cookery class at college and is managing her complex PTSD. I feel as though my complex is going to be a little bit better than it was before. It's making me figure out ways to deal with certain situations and ways to cope and ways to manage everything that comes with it. Elvira there who lives at a project run by the charity in Edinburgh. Well a little earlier this morning I spoke to Tracy Stewart who is the

community service lead at Rowan Alba and I asked her why they decided to bring psychologists in-house at the women's accommodation that they run in the city. Well, I have worked for the Rowan Alba for the charity for over 15 years, and we were introduced to a psychologist who worked in the field and who started to run what was called reflective practice sessions with staff. And his overall feeling and belief is that the thinking that we do about the work that we do is actually the job. So that is the main part of the job is to be able to provide space and a safe psychological space for staff to think about what they are doing on a daily basis so they can show up with that energy and compassion and belief and curiosity about the people that they're working with. So that's interesting. So they're initially brought in to work with the staff to help you in what is probably quite an intense working environment.

So then how did that go from being with the staff to then going about working with the women who access the service? Yes. Well, I think access is the key word here. So when you think about the carry on from that was that this was an excellent piece of work. It provided over two years' worth of input into the staff team, which raised their confidence, good for staff retention, and provided a consistent service and a consistent relationship with the people using our homelessness services. And so with the decision to try to get funding to place the mental health experts, psychologists in the actual services, it all comes down to access so that the people who often need

the care the most do not receive it and cannot actually access it. So to take that support and to take that input and place it in the place and the environment in which these people are living and accessing the support from our residential staff just makes sense. It's common sense, actually. But unfortunately, that's not wide across Edinburgh and the nation.

The psychologists are in these services. Let's find out how it works within your service then. Because women come to you with multiple issues and I'm sure lots of very complicated stories. So how does the psychologist go about building a relationship with them how does it actually work in practice? Well the psychologist is present so they work in the actual accommodation so they will work a couple of days a week there and they will run this the reflective practice sessions also so this is um really basic stuff in the first instance so it's it's basically about um if there was a service called getting to know the person and find out why

your experiences cause you to behave in this way that is essentially what the psychologists are doing so it's all about the behaviour, understanding the trauma, understanding a person, treating them as a unique person and building a relationship. Because essentially the relationship between the caregiver and the care receiver is as important as the care itself. So if the relationship is not a safe place, then the care cannot be given and received. So Sarah, our psychologist, who we have from the funding from St Martins in the Field, is just present.

So when people get up in the morning and they're going off to their work and they are coming back in the evening, Sarah has been there in the morning and she's a familiar face. She's having a cup of tea. She's engaging with games. She's engaging with all of the activities that go on in and around the homelessness, the temporary accommodation. And so she becomes a familiar face. And these are the very basic ways in which we all engage with other human beings and our friends and our family and we are familiar with them first yeah it builds trust doesn't it so what's the reaction you're getting how's it how's it working well i think you know sarah is a lovely human being so are the women that use the services and so um it's just like any other human being however obviously sarah comes with a

vast experience and has the ability to bring in her medical model of treatment and care into the environment and so um but to everybody else she is just sarah and obviously people know that she is a psychologist. So if you can imagine if you've never been or managed to see a psychologist in your life, and yet one is there in your accommodation two or three days a week, you are now going to be able to envisage, OK, maybe I could actually try to figure out a way how I can engage with this. So no longer is it the person in the white coat sitting

in the white room and looking at their clock because you're five minutes late so she's right there and so that so the the very basic conversations start yeah and and that's where the relationship is built from and how long would a woman typically be with you at the projects before she steps out and finds her own place well i think when i started way back over 15 years ago um people were only really coming into the temporary accommodation for maybe well certainly under a year like six months um so but now you're looking at in excess of two three years uh even you know sometimes more. So when people are coming into the homelessness accommodation, first they have just came in, they do not know anywhere, they don't know anybody who's there, they don't know the staff,

they don't know the other women who are living in the stair. And so it's very hard for their thoughts to be, let me use the service, let me use the people who are working here so that I can get my own place, because that's likely to happen in, to six months. When that is three years away, that is not your immediate concern. Your immediate concern is, am I going to be able to stay in this place? Is this going to be safe? So it's a very different picture of what we typically imagine a homeless service to be.

Do you think this model could be rolled out elsewhere? How do you think it would work? I think it's the basics, actually. I think when you look at mental health services and how difficult they are, practically impossible for people with relational injuries, if you like, and mental health services being cut off. Relational injuries, what do you mean? Well, if you're unable or have never had solid relationships in your life

and have experience of how that works with a brother or a sister or a mother or a friend, then your experience of relationships are broken relationships, relationships that are temporary, relationships that are abusive. So your ability to walk into a room and use the treatment and care of a clinical psychologist starts off with how you're able to form a relationship and so if you're not able to form a relationship then the care cannot be accessed so the injury if you like to describe it in that way to try and break it down into a simple form and comes with people's ability to form relationships through no fault of their own because of the

way perhaps that they have experienced life. And I think that is what we try to understand is what is this person's experiences and how does that affect the way they form relationships? So ultimately, Tracey, what would the benefits be then if this was rolled out? Well, I mean, the long-term outcomes of this particular project in a very formal kind of official way is we are looking for reductions in the use of accident and emergency to stop repeat homelessness, a reduction in incidents and critical incidents

of a medical and mental health nature. Yeah, but ultimately it's about being able to help people with their sort of psychological needs when they're with you on tap. Yes, yes. Including the staff. Including the staff. And this is with the psychologist that we had, we would often say,

if only we could get a psychologist for all of the women, this would be just fantastic. And he would say, well, I'm going to put my time and invest it into you as a group because you are the ones who are living with these individuals so let's make sure that that is a really healthy working life that you have and a healthy attitude and energy when you're going into your work because you've been given the time to think about it. So it's two sides. It is not just for the women who are using the services. It's also for the amazing women who are working in these services.

Tracey Stewart from Rowan Alba there. And if you'd like to support this year's Christmas Appeal with St Martin's in the Fields charity, you can donate by calling 0800 082 8284 or you can give online via the Radio 4 Christmas Appeal website. I have still got Sathara Gayle's song about her mother's experience ringing in my ears and lots of you are getting in touch about the first time you saw your mum as a woman, an independent, fully functioning human and not just your mother. A message here, I saw my mum as a real woman when she took me on walks as

a teenager to share her life experience and wisdom. That's when it sunk in that she wasn't just my mum. Oh, lucky you. I first saw my mum as a woman in her own right when I had a miscarriage in my 30s. Her strength as a woman in her own right has supported me through my miscarriages

and raising three fabulous girls who I hope one day will see me like this. She's 83 next week and her love and strength inspires me. Happy birthday to your mum for next week. 84844 is our text number. Now a judge has ruled that MMA fighter Conor McGregor must pay the legal costs of a woman who accused him of raping her in a hotel in Dublin in 2018. A jury found McGregor liable for assault in a civil case taken by Nikita Hand and a judge has ordered him to pay over £200,000 in damages. Yesterday, a judge ruled that McGregor also has to pay Nikita Hand's legal costs for taking the claim against him, a figure that's likely to be well above the costs of the damages.

Today, we're going to explore the impact the ruling has had in Ireland with BBC journalist Aoife Walsh. Welcome, Aoife. Some listeners might remember that we discussed this case last week, but for those who didn't hear that, can you tell us a bit more about it? Who are Nikita Hand and Conor McGregor, and what has she accused him of? Yes, so Nikita Hand is a 35-year-old hairdresser from Dublin, and her civil case was related to a sexual assault she alleged had happened in December 2018 at a hotel in Dublin.

So she had made a statement to Irish police in early 2019, alleging Conor McGregor, as you say, is a famous mixed martial arts fighter from Dublin, had raped her. And after investigating the claim, police referred the case to Ireland's Director of Public Prosecutions, which decided not to criminally prosecute McGregor on the grounds of insufficient evidence. Ms. Hand then decided to take civil action against McGregor, suing him for damages for assault. So this is a case she took herself against McGregor, seeking compensation rather than the state, which, as I said, decided not to criminally prosecute. And just to explain what that means, a higher legal threshold applies to a criminal case rather than in a civil case. So in a civil action, cases must be proved on the balance of probabilities, meaning that you must show a 50% probability that the defendant is liable. Whereas in a criminal case, you must show that something happened for certain. And I should say too that her lawsuit also alleged that McGregor's friend James Lawrence assaulted her by having sex with her without her consent. But ultimately the jury found that she had been assaulted by McGregor but not by James Lawrence.

So she was awarded nearly £250,000 in damages and after the verdict was delivered Conor McGregor said he'd appealed the decision. So then that's what happened yesterday? So that happened last week and then yesterday, a judge in Dublin's High Court awarded Nikita Hahn's costs in her civil action, which means that Conor McGregor will have to pay her legal fees relating to this side of the case. So we don't know exactly how much that amounts to yet, but it's been estimated that the costs of the legal action ran to more than €1 million.

So she will, however, have to pay her own costs in relation to her claim against Mr Lawrence, but that's the only bill that she'll have to pay in relation to her case. What happened when this case went to trial? So the case ran for almost three weeks. It stems from an incident, as I said, that was alleged to have happened in December in 2018. The jury heard that Nikita Hand had been picked up from a Christmas party with her friend by Conor McGregor. And they were later joined by Mr. Lawrence and they went to a penthouse suite in the Beacon Hotel in Dublin where the court heard that they had been drinking alcohol. The court heard that at one point McGregor beckoned Miss Hand to join him in a bedroom and the jury was told that McGregor came on to Miss Hand but that she did not want to have sexual intercourse because she was on her period. She also alleged that McGregor pinned her down on

the bed, tried to push him off her but she couldn't and was left bruised with scratches and over the course of the trial, the jury heard from a number of witnesses, one of which was Dr. Daniel Kane, a gynaecologist and forensic examiner, who saw Nikita Hand the day after the incident was alleged to have taken place. And he told the court that a tampon Ms. Hand said she'd been wearing on the night of the assault had to be removed with the forceps because it had been, in his words, wedged inside. Another witness was a paramedic who said she also saw Ms Hand the next day and that she had not seen a patient as badly bruised as Ms Hand was in a long time. And when Conor McGregor took the stand, he said that him and Ms Hand

had consensual but athletic sex. So what was Conor McGregor's reaction to the ruling yesterday? He hasn't officially reacted, but his lawyer has indicated that it's likely that he will appeal that decision and that he's also going to appeal the decision of the verdict, which was two weeks ago. And what happened at the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre in response to the civil ruling? So when the initial civil ruling was delivered, the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre said that calls to the centre over the six hours after the verdict in Nikita's hand case was delivered surged by 150%. I spoke to Rachel Murrow, the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre chief executive, and she said many people were actually calling to congratulate Ms Hand on the verdict. Others were expressing relief, while others were calling because they were considering taking a legal case themselves or they were in the middle of one. She said interest was really high because reporting in Ireland was slightly different given that Conor McGregor was an international celebrity.

There was great interest in the case. Excuse me. There was rolling news coverage and it was the top story on most of Ireland's national media platforms. What other kinds of responses have there been then? So the case, as I said, was of huge public interest in Ireland, where I think it's fair to say Conor McGregor has always been a bit of a divisive figure. Put him into context a little bit. So he... Because he's a Dublin lad. He's a Dublin lad, having hailed from Crumlin,

left his job as a teenager as an apprentice plumber to pursue a career in mixed martial arts, which was a sport that was relatively unknown in Ireland at the time. So while he has always been a divisive figure, he's often well regarded for his sporting achievements and credited with bringing the sport of mixed martial arts to Ireland at a time when it was relatively unknown. He's definitely one of Ireland's most famous celebrities. But he's had several legal issues and controversies surrounding him over recent years, both in the US and within Ireland.

But none of that has really seemed to have much of an impact on his success. But within a week of Nikita Han's ruling, hundreds of supermarkets across the UK and Ireland had pulled alcohol brands linked to him from the shelves. IO Interactive, the creators of a Hitman video game, said that they were ceasing collaboration with Conor McGregor and Ireland's National Wax Museum also said that it had removed its wax figure of him. I also spoke to the owner of a gym in Galway

where a video had gone viral of its staff painting over a mural of Conor McGregor. Gary Scully, the owner of the gym, told me that the mural had been there since 2016 but he wanted it gone as soon as he heard the verdict. He said to me that Conor McGregor is no longer thought of as a role model across the island and after the ruling that people want nothing to do with him that's his his words and don't want anything to

do with putting money his way um in response to the video online gary told me has been mostly positive but some people disagreed with the decision saying that it's typical irish to build someone up and then knock them down as soon as they have a bit of a wobble but he says the consensus is really that the ruling was more than a wobble and was quite significant. Aoife, thank you so much. That was Aoife Walsh. And if you've been affected by any issues we've discussed, you can find links to support on the BBC Action Line website. Now, if you were listening yesterday, you will have heard my conversation with DJ and author Annie Mack. She spoke about the move to shifting the party earlier with the rise

of day raving. Here she is talking about her love of a good old rave. Going to clubbing, realising the power of that kind of collective euphoria that you have on a dance floor, where everybody is kind of moving and dancing to the same beat. It's like church. It is church, yeah. It is church without the religion. Like it is that same kind of communion. Well, it prompted one of you to text in. Millie centres this. She said, I wrote my entire thesis on the healing aspects of raving specifically for people in recovery from addiction. Well, I spoke a little earlier to Millie Day. She's a recent graduate in dance and movement psychotherapy, and she's also a sober raver herself. I started by asking her what made her get in touch with

the programme. So I was on my way back from facilitating a therapy session and you and Annie were speaking about clubbing and the importance of clubbing for both of you and I just felt compelled to pull over and text in the show. I am an avid raver myself. I have been for many years. I no longer drink or take any mind-altering substances, but I still love to go out. I love the feeling of being amongst my tribe, the feeling of connection and, yeah, the freedom that I get from raving.

I'm a big fan of the day rave as well. Yeah, I mean, day rave, brilliant. The older you get the earlier they should be um annie spoke well we both talked about that church-like feeling of a rave can you explain that yeah i mean the feeling of everybody coming together everybody facing the dj it is a bit like being at a church you know we're all there people from all different walks of life who all kind of unite through this shared passion there is something very spiritual about it for me I would say for me it's more spiritual than religious

yes but I love the fact that it attracts people you know all sorts of different people so when I'm at a rave I see people of different ages nationalities yeah all walks of life people who I wouldn't necessarily encounter outside of the rave scene. And I feel like in that sort of space, all these differences just melt away. And so that's why it's a sort of spiritual experience for me. It's very tribal. I'm smiling and nodding because I completely understand it. It's when I went to uni and found my tribe on the dance floor.

And it's actually, maybe you can relate to this, Millie, it's the first time in my life where I felt totally not judged. Nobody cares who you are. Just dance your heart away and have a good time. Yeah, that's exactly it. I feel like most people go to a rave and they leave their egos at the door. And people are there to play and to have fun and to be silly and I feel like as adults we don't do enough of that so for me the the rave is a bit like a playground for adults and I don't feel judged there either I never have done I feel like everybody there just wants to have a good time to connect with other people and to share in this wonderful experience together. And it really is true.

I'm with you. I'm beaming. I've got a massive smile on my face this Friday morning. So completely with you. What made you write your thesis on this? I am a trained dance and movement psychotherapist. So while I was at university, we got told that we could write our thesis about pretty much anything. And I was actually doing my placement, my university placement at a rehab.

And I was running sessions and people were coming into my sessions and they were saying, gosh, I feel like I'm at a rave. And I was thinking that's interesting because the music I'm playing is fairly slow. It's broad daylight. There are only five people in this room. I wonder what it is that that's kind of making these people feel as though they're at a rave and they were using words like joy and connection and freedom i thought wow this this is something that clearly means a lot to so many people not just myself and i want to write about it i want to write about the healing aspects of raving and why it's important for so many people and and show the world that actually meets a much greater need than what they

might imagine because most people hear raving and they think oh that's about hedonism and escapism and they don't realize i think quite how healing it can be so that's that's what i wanted to talk about you know the the healing powers of raving and how to not create the rave, not to recreate the rave in a therapeutic context, but how to get those same needs met, how to allow people to be free and creative and to connect and to experience joy. Joy, that wonderful word. You might have thought that for those who were substance users,

that sort of recreating the rave might be quite triggering. Yeah, that's why it's not about recreating the rave, but finding other ways to incorporate those same elements. So for example, one of my findings from the research was that raves are places that invite playfulness and creativity, and a lot of healing can be achieved through play and through creativity. I was actually spoken about briefly on your show yesterday when you interviewed Shelley from Grief Encounter, you know, the importance of creativity. Oh, Millie, you were listening, paying attention. That show was made for me. Everything you spoke about resonated with me. I was so glad that I listened to it yesterday. So, yes, it's not about recreating the rave, but more about how can we invite playfulness? How can we invite creativity? How can we allow people to experience freedom

and all these things they experience at a rave minus the drink and drugs? And you're a sober raver. I am a sober raver. You love a day rave, but you still go out at night? And how is it going sober raving in the evening? I do a bit of both. I'm much more a day raver nowadays, but I still love going out at night. I just find that I can't keep going for quite as long

and I get so hungry. Yeah, I'm with you. You don't fancy a kebab on the way home then, those days of course. Oh, I sometimes do. Yeah, got to, delicious. But what about sort of being on a dance floor with lots of people who might be in the middle

of a big hedonistic night out? It's not something I would necessarily advise for people who are trying to come off alcohol and drugs. But for me, I've always loved the music and dancing so much that it hasn't been a problem being surrounded by people who are using alcohol and other substances. Because I just get into my zone and I'm not really even aware of it. I just love being at a rave. I love being on a dance floor more than anything in the world. Oh, Millie, I'm totally with you. And also for me, primarily it's the music,

where the DJ's playing music that I love. I'm in a very happy place. Okay, so it's Friday morning. We want people to feel joy because everyone deserves to feel that. So how can people recreate this feeling for themselves? What, give us some practical advice, Millie. Go and do something really silly.

Go and be a child, connect with your inner child. Ask yourself, what does little me want or need today? And then go and do it, whether it's splashing in a puzzle dancing in your kitchen i don't know baking a cake do something playful and silly with your day millie day listener getting in touch with us uh there and you know if there's something that has sparked your imagination or if there's a story you've heard this morning that has made you think of an experience then get in touch and you never know you could be telling me all about it on woman's hour and the email is on our website and just to

end the program with another one of your texts on when you see your mother as a woman um jay says sadly i don't think i fully saw my mum as a whole woman with her own story from before being a mum to me and my three sisters until she died. I had heard lots of stories about her wild 20s eating leftovers off people's plates whilst backpacking in Greece, squatting in London flats, cycling through Portugal. I knew all of this, knew her as a woman, but didn't really feel it. She was just my mum. After she died in 2019, aged 64, I discovered more about these stories and became more curious about who she really was as a young woman. I still feel guilty that I didn't try to understand her before it was too late.

Thank you for taking part. I'll be back tomorrow with Weekend Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. One winter's night in 1974, a crime took place that would obsess the nation. We're still looking for Lucan all over the world. Lord Lucan is said to have killed the family nanny

and to have attacked his wife before disappearing. Why has this, of all crimes, captured our imagination? It's partly that the evidence is so murky. As I try to get to the bottom of the case, my preconceptions are blown apart. I mean, this is pretty weird stuff to have in a box, isn't it? What on earth is this for? The Lucan Obsession with me, Alex von Tunselman.

From BBC Radio 4. Listen now on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.