Woman's Hour - Penny Lancaster, New play Punch, Rugby grounds-women

Episode Date: September 26, 2025

Penny Lancaster is a special constable, TV personality and photographer. She’s also married to rock legend Rod Stewart. Penny talks to Anita Rani about her life so far - from being bullied at school and living with severe dyslexia, to her IVF journey and educating her boys about the menopause. Penny also shares insights into her marriage to Rod and how for the past four years she has served as a Special Constable with the City of London Police.We examine the part that women’s safety is playing in protests about immigration in the UK. Reflecting the range of opinion from women who are protesting outside asylum hotels and forming street patrols they say to protect girls, to women’s organisations who believe that violence against women and girls is being weaponised for political gain.  Anita speaks to the BBC's Senior UK correspondent Sima Kotecha.Punch is a play that looks at the ripple effects of a single punch, thrown by a teenager on a night out in Nottingham with fatal consequences. It is on stage in London and the mother of the young man killed, Joan Scourfield, is played by Julie Hesmondhalgh. Both Julie and Joan join Anita to discuss this remarkable story of restorative justice. It's the Women's Rugby World Cup Final on Saturday between England and Canada. For the first time in history, an all-female grounds management team will be prepping the pitch for the Women’s final. It’s groundbreaking: only 2% of grounds managers are women, and there’s a recruitment crisis looming. Anita is joined by Cheryl Hill, part of the team at Twickenham stadium and Jennifer Carter of the Grounds Management Association. Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Rebecca Myatt

Hello, this is Nula McGovern, and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning and welcome to the program. The brilliant actor, Julie Hesmond House, she's in to tell us about the play Punch. It's based on the memoir of Jacob Dunn, who threw a single punch that tragically killed James Hodgkinson, the son of Joan Scorfield, who somehow found the compassion to get to know Jacob. It's the story of the play, which is incredibly moving. We'll also be here with Julie. We'll also look at the part that women's safety is playing in protests about immigration in the UK,

reflecting the range of opinion from women who are protesting outside asylum hotels and forming street patrols, they say to protect girls, to women's organisations who believe that violence against women and girls is being weaponised for political gain. And Penny Lancaster, former model, a special police constable and wife of Sir Rod Stewart, has written a memoir. and she's popped in for a chat. Famously, Sir Rod has publicly defended Penny a couple of times. We'll get into that in our conversation. However, this morning, I'd like you to tell me about a time when you've stuck up for someone or someone stuck up for you,

whether at work in public, someone you know, a stranger on the street, have you witnessed an injustice and stepped in or called someone out for their behaviour? How did it play out and how did you feel about it? Get in touch in the usual way. The text number is 8484.8.4.5. You can email me by going to our website or the WhatsApp number. You can leave me a voice note if you like.

It's 037-100-400-444. The text number, though, once again, 84844. Now, to my first guest, Penny Lancaster, is a former model, TV personality and photographer. She's also married to rock legend Sir Rod Stewart's. In her biography, someone like me, she recounts her life story, from being bullied at school and living with severe dyslexia, her IVF journey to educating her boys about menopause. She also shares insights into her marriage to Rod.

Away from the glitz and glamorous lifestyle for the past four years, she's been serving as a special constable with the City of London Police. And I'm delighted to say, Penny is here with me now. Morning, welcome to Woman's Hour. Good morning. It's so wonderful to be here. Thank you for having me. Our pleasure. You were on duty last night. How was it?

I was on duty last night. Tell me about it. I thought there's no better way to celebrate the, publication day, which was yesterday, then going out on duty. And talk about fill my boots, you know, going from high heels into my patrol boots. Well, yeah, your books come out. What a day. Yeah, I know. But it's sort of where I feel my most comfortable, actually.

And it is like another family, the police family. And funny enough, on the topics you're discussing about women's safety, it was an operation last night called Operation Reframe, which initially launched about four years ago that looks after the safety of women in the nighttime economy on the streets of the city of London. The city force was the one that initially rolled it out, other forces have taken note.

Other countries have actually looked up to the work we're doing. We basically, once a month, at the moment, we set up a welfare tent at Liverpool Street Station A lot of the time we find vulnerable people, people with concerns that feel unsafe might not be comfortable to walk into a police station. So there's a welfare tent where along with city police, there's metropolitan police, there's the Samaritans. There's St John's Ambulance, mental health nurses, all congregate together in a collaborative way to sort of look after the streets of London. So last night it was a special rollout because they introduced their city safe bus

So it's a physical bus Where anyone that's vulnerable feels unsafe Can come off the streets into the safety of the bus We have charges of people charge their phone Because of course if a woman doesn't have a phone on her Makes a much more vulnerable Sure, yeah Because we feel it's our safety net

You know, walking down the street with your phone Exactly But of course that could also draw or criminality as well because there's so much phone snatching. There's a lot of vulnerability. So I was out there last night. You were obviously so passionate about this. What made you want to take on this job at this stage in your life?

I mean, you don't even have to work, Penny. Well, this is the beauty of being a special constable. It's a volunteer role. Sure. Like how I volunteer my time with lots of different charities. I felt like this was a very tangible way of giving back. And you feel that every duty you go on, you make a deal. difference to somebody.

You know, you've got a lot of vulnerable people coming up to it. Policing isn't just about fighting the criminals. But what was the draw? The draw. Well, you know, it was sort of a huge turning point for me, hitting 50, heading into menopause. I didn't realize it was menopause. I was dealing with at the time. My GP put me on antidepressants, thinking I was depressed.

But fortunately, thanks to my colleagues on loose women, they recognize the symptoms. and I spoke to a specialist and I went on HRT. So it was this big turning point, turning 50, going, realising it was the menopause time, sort of really connecting with myself, wanting to really sort of understand my true self. And an opportunity came. I worked on a TV show for the police working on the front line

and I just love it. I fell in love with it. I thought this is for me. So I signed up, did the training and began. became a special. Do you get recognized? Occasionally, but the thing is what we find a lot of the time is the members of public see a uniform. Yeah. They don't recognize that there's, you know, a mother, an uncle, a brother, a son, you know, we're just, as, you know, the saying goes, the police of the public, the public of the police, you know, we're all the same, but we choose

to put the uniform on to keep people safe. You've said you've never had to use your baton or pepper spray, though you have had to get Rod to stop texting you and checking it on you. Yes, it's, I mean, obviously the baton and the spray, they're uses of force that hopefully you wouldn't have to ever use, but they're there for our protection. But, you know, Rod would often at the beginning of my career in special constable foot patrol, he would often call or message, you know, how are you doing is everything okay you safe and you know two hours later i was able to get on my phone on a rest break and he was panicking and i said dunning i can't answer my phone while i'm dealing with members of public or you know on patrolling you know so um he sort of soon got used

to the idea and and he loves it when i when i go out now because he knows how much joy it brings to me it's said it's changed you what do you mean you said it's changed you for the better for the better i am i have a much clearer um understanding particularly of course of the work that the police do, the challenges that the police do and naturally have this course of empathy and I suppose it's just highlighted and embellished those sort of natural

skill sets that I have. We've got to talk about Rod. You met at a Christmas party when you were a photographer students at Barking College and your friend asked him to get her, his autograph. Yes. Was it instant attraction? I mean, he has an energy.

about him for sure. You know, Rod can't walk through a room without people noticing. You know, he is, there has this sort of magnetism. So his energy was quite infectious. And I asked for his autograph and he was extremely charming. But at the same time, he, you know, had a dignified response that he, you know, he was going through a tough time and he had just broken up with his ex-wife. And, you know, it was a difficult period of time for him.

but he gave my number to his bass player Carmine and he said look I'd love to give you the opportunity to take some photographs at my show so he's got your number he'll contact you so I went to the show, took photographs and that was it

I didn't hear from him and wasn't really expecting to until nine months later Carmine had kept my telephone number when Rod kept asking for it he said no no no you're not ready you let your hair down you're kind of you're single man again And you're going off the rails a bit here.

Get it out your system. And then he decided that this was the time. And then he made that call and the rest is history. Is he listening? Does he listen to what is that? He's in America. He's a residency in Vegas at the moment. Of course.

There is an age gap of 26 years, but you've been together that same length of time. You were in your 20s when you met. He was in his 50s. And you're now 54 and he's 80. You don't actually make too much mention of the age gap in the book. Do you think it's a strength in the relationship? I really admire his traits, his old-fashioned views. He's a true gent.

And the age of chivalry is not dead in our household. And our boys also emulate that, and they're very respectful to women. And that's one of the things that drew my affection towards him. I mean, how do you? imagine any regular 80-year-old to be touring the world still. I mean... And playing at Glastonbury.

And playing at Glastonbury. So he's not your average 80-year-olds. So I never noticed the age difference. You say you're a hoarder, but he likes order and perfection, and he gets upset by other people's clutter. Yes, certainly does. But, like, I have this one room where I have, like, my desk, my office sort of thing, and my sofa and my cosy bits.

And I like to have my familiar clutter around. me, you know, and that's just, I'm like, you know, he has to stop at the door and just sort of walk away. It's nice to get a little insight into your life, your clutter room. I wonder what's in the clutter room? Well, it's just, it's just, I attach meaning to objects, I suppose. I don't know whether it's a dyslexic trait or whatever, but I'm a tactile person and a visual and I just like to have those comfort things around me.

You mention your dyslexia. I mean, the book, by the way, congratulations. It takes a lot to put a memoir out. Yeah. And you've revealed so much about yourself. So I want to go back to where you grew up, which is Essex. And you really don't shy away from recounting quite painful experiences of being bullied at school. A lot of it to do with your height, possibly your dyslexia as well,

bullied not just by other pupils, but also about a teacher. Can you tell us about that, bullied by a teacher? Yeah, it was a time when, you know, bullying wasn't seen as a mental health issue like it is today. and it was just one torn after another and it was I think when they feel that there's a vulnerability in somebody then you become that target no matter what the subject matter is

and then one day there'd be a teacher that would sort of if I stood up would say oh Penelope as I was known at school sit down, you're casting a shadow over the rest of the classroom and everyone would giggle so it was a constant banter

and you could say oh we were just joking but it sort of escalated and then it became physical. So it was taunting. But what was amazing was the way my mum would help me deal with it. So even though I might have been in tears going home, I would put a brave face on at school. And she would always say to me,

look at it from a different perspective. Those bullies are missing something in their life. They're unhappy to have to sort of put this onto you. So, you know, just try to have some empathy, feel sorry for them. more so than feel sorry for yourself. So that was kind of my ethics moving forward to think of others and how they must be feeling. Yeah, your family comes across so wonderfully.

Your parents sound incredible. How did those experiences shape your sense of self? It was a case of believing yourself, believe in who you are, don't lower yourself, rise above it, be true to yourself and forge through kindness, love, I mean, I would always look out for the others that were being bullied because I felt I had the strength to stick up for them. I thought, you know, this, I don't believe this is going to affect me in a negative way.

In fact, you know, I feel that it's sort of given me the tools to deal with bullies in adulthood because we still come across them. You know, I'm sure lots of people in their workplace have come across a bully or two. Well, I wonder if any of them have stood up to them as well. 8444, if you have, share that story. with us. You mentioned your dyslexia. It went undiagnosed and you got your official diagnosis in your 40s. Yes, it was my son, Alistair, who was 10 and he was sitting at an exam to enter a school in England when we made the move back from America. And I was asked whether I was aware

that Alistair might have dyslexia because it showed traits of that, of that pattern. And I said, well, I had considered it because I've often wondered myself if I have dyslexia or I am dyslexic. And so I said, you know what, Alistair, to take some of the trauma away from this big test, you know, I'll go and get test. Mommy will get tested first. And it was an awful test, a three hour long, really pressurized test, cognitive skills, reading, writing, memory, all sorts of things. Anyway, I came out with flying colours and I was so relieved. I thought, my gosh, I knew it.

This explains so much. And then with, you know, researching it and getting a bit more information on the subject and my diagnosis, it proved to me that I had a skill set that regular learners don't have. Yeah. I have extirabilities of problem solving and communication on a different level. So actually, I found that it was a strength. Yeah. But it must have been a struggle as well because not knowing and having to figure things out for yourself. No support. I was constantly told, you know, you're never going to pass these exams. You know, you're wasting your time. One teacher told my father, he employed this extra classes for my English exam.

And this tutor just said, you're wasting your time and your money. She'll never make anything of herself. You know, just don't bother with her kind of thing. I mean, from a teacher. What a thing to say. Not recognising that everyone has the right to learn and educate themselves. and we just have to be taught a different way. You know, there isn't any standard pattern in life, is there?

We're all different. Absolutely. And that is a really serious story because it really does impact a child and can send them in all sorts of directions. Today, there's so many more children that are falling through the cracks and aren't being diagnosed properly.

And the tests are expensive. Yeah. I'm now an ambassador with the British Dissex Association and there is going to be a campaign going out to sort of really highlight this. area that we don't want children to be falling through the gaps. Another big subject that we discuss a lot on this program. You mentioned loose women.

And it was on that program in a discussion about Me Too that you revealed you'd been sexually assaulted when you were 17 working as a model. You'd never spoken about it. You're not spoken about it for 30 years. And it wasn't something you'd planned to do. No, I'd buried it along with the shame. And at the time when I was 17, I'd just. Yeah, I thought it was my fault.

I shouldn't have accepted his invite back to his apartment. I shouldn't have accepted the drink that I now realize must have been spiked. And then I found myself in a horrible position, which I detail in the book. But I just wanted to get out of that space and pretend it just never happened and didn't tell anyone. so years later when the Me Too came out it was just a trigger and women were coming forward and talking about these past experiences and whether they're historical or present I think it's so important for all women and men

to come forward and talk about their issues because I know now as a police officer the more people come forward no matter how small the crime or the incident is it builds a much clearer picture it builds a clearer picture of the person's character as well as their actions and then of course that adds to the case and a conviction but you had to live with the shame you said and it's not your shame we know that

it's not your shame to carry yeah and you suffered i mean this you also had a traumatic experience when you're a bit younger and you you were attacked in an underpass at the age of 12 on the way to school yeah yeah and that actually manifested in in uh in in this is it hyperhydrosis well i i assume that's that's what may have brought it on. Adolescence could have been another thing that brought it on when you get the kick of hormone changes. But hyperhydrosis is part of the nervous system.

And, you know, right now my hands are shiny and clammy. But it's not necessarily because I'm nervous or anxious. You know, they can be like that when I'm excited about something. Or they can be completely bone dry. It's sort of a hit and miss as to. of how my hands are going to behave. But it's a tout-tow sign of maybe triggers and things like that from the past. We've got to talk about MasterChef.

You were a contestant in 2021. In December last year, you revealed you were a victim and witnessed bullying and harassment by presenter Greg Warreless, who's since been sacked from the show. This is following allegations of inappropriate sexual comments in a BBC news investigation. Master Chef's production company, Bannerjay, commissioned an inquiry, conducted by an independent law firm. In July this year, the report revealed that 45 of the 83 allegations had been substantiated with the majority of those claims relating to inappropriate sexual language and humour,

a smaller number related to inappropriate language and being in the state of undress. In response, Wallace issued a statement saying that none of the serious allegations against me were upheld. I challenged the remaining issue of unwanted touching, but I have had to accept a difference in perception. And I'm deeply sorry for any distress caused. It was never intended. You reveal more in the book about your experience. And can you tell us about it? Yeah, it was during lockdown and homeschooling and, you know, empty diary.

And then I got the opportunity to be on this, well, I always admired an incredible show, Master Chef. I'm no chef myself, but of course we were all cooking to an extreme. during lockdown and I thought well why not you know get some new skills under my belt and I was going in with very positive attitude and unfortunately it was tainted by the experience that I had with with Greg Wallace is his behaviour and attitude very demeaning and I guess the most shocking thing really not, you know, beyond his actions were the fact that I wasn't supported by the team around him, by the producers, the production team. Nobody was recognising what was happening, which made me feel like this was commonplace and this was a pattern of behaviour.

That was a bit more disturbing, I suppose. We have had a statement from Bannerj, UK, who say we're extremely sorry to anyone who's been impacted by any inappropriate behaviour by Greg Wallace whilst working on our show. and felt unable to speak up at the time of their complaint was not adequately addressed. Ways of reporting concerns whilst working on our productions protocols around behaviour and training for both cast and crew have improved exponentially in recent years and we constantly review welfare procedures across our productions to ensure that they're as robust as they can be. The vast majority of allegations which was substantiated by the legal team leading the investigation into the behaviour of Greg Wallace took place prior to 2018 with only one upheld after this date.

How did it leave you feeling? Well, I knew that I needed to support the investigations. Once the allegations that started pouring through more recently, I needed to add my voice because a lot of the allegations were much more serious than mine. But in a sense, I added the gravitas to the type of character that he was and built a clearer picture. So I didn't go to the media with the story, but I went. I spoke to the investigation team. And what did you make of the findings?

It wasn't surprising. And in the outcome, I was pleased to know that, you know, that action had been taken and those women had been heard and believed. Well, I must say, we've contacted Greg Wallace's representatives, but no response. It's been reported that he denies bullying and harassing you. Rod publicly defended you, put a message out, saying exactly what he thinks

it's not the only time he stuck up for you he's very quick to do it he did the same when you were dropped as a model by Ultimo in favour of his ex-Rachel Hunter it made me think of you talking in your book about your grandpa Wallace and the Lancaster Way and tell me about this because it sounds like

the set of values where you stand up for people and you have core values and sort of Rod's standing up for you aligns with the Lancaster Way of doing things. Yes, it was my granddad, my father's father, who had this sort of strong, stiff half a lip of just, you know, if you need to be a man of your word,

you need to be honest and true to yourself. And when in the first week of meeting, Rod, after that nine-month period of absence, I said that I wouldn't be out of meeting because I was having lunch with my grandfather. and he agreed to meet us and he never turned up. So with that disappointment, I was driving my granddad home. And I said, well, never mind, granddad, you know, he's obviously busy or he's forgotten.

He said, no, no, no, no, no, I'm not having that. We're going to go round to his house. I said, Grandma, we can't. We can't just turn up. He said, he promised he would come for lunch. It's my birthday. And then he just turned around, are you a Lancaster or not? I thought, oh, gosh.

And I thought, this is my granddad, you know. And he's in his 80s, you know, late 80s or something. And I said, no, you're right. Okay, for you, Granddad, we'll go around there. So we went around and, of course, Rod was extremely apologetic. He felt mortified. And he had a very good excuse, blah, blah, blah. Anyway, he made up for it forever and ever after that.

And Wally and him had the best relationship. He sounds great. Love your granddad. That is the right attitude. Just knock on the door. What are you up to? Just after Rod publicly defends you, what's your reaction to those messages and things that he puts out?

Well, I think he saw my character was one that I look out for others. I stand up for others. You know, maybe that hence why I end up in policing, you know, wanted to care for other people and look after their safety. But more often than not, didn't really reflect that back on myself to take care of me. So I suppose he just took it in, into his powers to be the one that would stand up for me.

You're also a menopause awareness campaigner and educating the men in your life about it as well. Tell me about that. Well, we all know that half of society physically go through the menopause, whether you're lucky enough to not have too many of the symptoms or very, very sadly, however, so many women suffer streams and streams of symptoms of the menopause,

you know, which can end up women coming out of the workplace earlier than they should, relationship sending in divorce and very tragically, some taking their lives because of the symptoms of menopause. So what I recognised, of course, was not only those women suffering, but it's the men in their lives that are suffering with them, whether it's your husband, your partner, your brother, your uncle, and even the children in your life.

My boys witnessed a complete meltdown that I had when I was at the tip of my worst symptoms of menopause and you know it did need some explaining but you know now that they're fully first with all of that and they even understand when there's a you know one of their female teachers at school is not having such a great day they think maybe it's the menopause you know and they give them a little you know easy time they had a bit more understanding and bringing men on board it's so important

really important how you bring up young boys in our society and that is going to pick up in a conversation we're going to be having a little bit later. But will you stick around, Penny? I would love to stick around. Thank you so much. For now, Penny, Lancaster, thank you. And someone like me is out now.

Now, we wanted to look at how women's safety has featured as a theme in recent protests against illegal immigration and asylum. We saw earlier this week the sentencing of Hadush Kebatu, an Ethiopian man who was sentenced to 12 months in prison for sexually assaulting a woman and a girl in Epping. It was his arrest in July that sparked a summer of protests over the government's policy of housing asylum seekers and hotels around the country.

We know some women have formed local street patrols. They say to protect girls from male asylum seekers, but many women's organisations and charities believe that a fear of violence against women and girls is being weaponised for political gain. Well, I'm joined now by the BBC's senior UK correspondent, Seema Ketcher. Morning Seema. Let's start with that case in Epping. What happened and how did things go beyond there?

Morning, Anita, and a fantastic interview with Penny Lancaster. Very compelling. Really enjoyed that. Yes, so there were protests outside the Bell Hotel over the summer, which is housing male asylum seekers. And some of our listeners will remember that they were triggered by the arrest, as you say, of Hadush Kabatu, the 41-year-old from Ethiopia who was jailed earlier this year for 12 months, sexually assaulting a woman.

and a 14-year-old girl in Epping, sorry, earlier this week, I should say. And there was a lot of fear among the locals as the news got out. And questions were being asked, like, are our women and girls safe? People were saying, you know, these men are coming from countries where attitudes to women are different. How do we know what might happen next? So there was a lot of that rhetoric. And this then triggered a conversation on social media

with other protests across the country being promoted under the Union Jack colours with slogans such as protect our community and safety of women and children before foreigners. And Anita, this conjured up more fear and really accelerated at that debate. Groups of local women have formed in some places we've been reading with some calling themselves the pink ladies. Who are they and what are they doing? Yeah, so around 80 women also were a part of this group

who dress in pink and go to some of these protests. They were initially set up in response to a fear of attacks on women and girls. And according to reports, we'll soon be supervising parks and playgrounds in certain areas to make sure that migrants aren't harassing women and children. The founder of the group recently told The Guardian, I don't care if I'm called Far Right, I'm protecting women and children in my community. So that's what their agenda is.

And you may have seen them on the news, dressed in pink, at some of these protests, especially in London, making their thoughts very clear, saying that, you know, we are not racist, but we are trying to keep our women and children safe. But do we know whether sexual assaults have increased in areas that have these hotels? What are the facts and figures? Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, we've heard from the Shadow Justice Secretary Robert Jenrick that Afghans and Eritreans are more than 20 times more likely to be convicted of sexual offences. Reform have also repeated that claim, and this is apparently based on some F-O-I data. But if you're an avid radio four listener,

you may have heard on more or less this week. They dug into those figures. And Madeline Sumpion from the Oxford University Migration Observatory said that her own analysis of the figures suggest Afghans are around 14.5 times more likely to have convictions. However, as the Afghan population skews younger, If you don't control for age, Afghans are locked up about at the same rate of British nationals. Now, nearly two weeks ago, up to 150,000 people attended the Unite the Kingdom March organised by far-right activist Tommy Robinson.

What do we know about how women's safety emerged as a theme there? Yeah, I mean, it was rather prevalent, to say the least. I mean, Tommy Robinson, whose will name is Stephen Yachtley-Lennon, came that UK courts had decided the rights of undocumented. immigrants superseded those of the local community, referring to the course of appeal decision last month, to overturn an injection blocking asylum seekers being housed at the Bell Hotel in Essex. We also know that Elon Musk spoke to the crowds on that Saturday via VideoLink, and he said that, you know, he accused our government of failing to protect innocent people, including children who are getting gang raped. He said it's unreal. The government has failed in its duty to protect its citizens, which is a fundamental. fundamental duty of the government, he said. Now, the implication was he was referring to grooming

gangs and the danger they have posed to young girls. But it's also worth saying, Anita, there were also women at the counter protest on that day who felt incredibly threatened by Robinson's followers. And we know that there was a South Asian woman. It was allegedly chased and threatened. And I think it's a good moment to maybe talk about the flags as well. We've seen, we were talking about it prior to the program, weren't we? That we've seen a growing number of St George's and Union flags going up in cities since that protest, towns and villages in recent weeks. I mean, I was driving through somewhere only a couple of days ago, and I was really struck

by how many flags have been erected. Outside the BBC yesterday? Yes, as you were saying. As I came to work, yeah. Yeah, I mean, they really are everywhere. And groups responsible for putting up the flags have told the BBC they are motivated by pride, should I say, and patriotism in some cases. Others have said it feels provocative at a time when tensions are running high across England over the issue of immigration.

Whilst we're talking about women's safety, it's been alleged that a woman was raped in an attack in the West Midlands, an attack described by the police as racially motivated. There are lots of media reports about this, but how has this impacted women in the Sikh community, but just in the wider community more generally? Yeah, I mean, I read that story. I'm sure you did as a fellow South Asian. and it's really shocking. I mean, I've heard a lot about this within not just the South Asian community,

but also within the black community people I was speaking to very recently. And there is palpable fear that someone could be attacked or even raped because of the colour of their skin. And a South Asian woman said to me, when she read about this case, she said, you know, you might have heard about something like this in the 60s and 70s, but to read something like this now is just unfathomable. So it's definitely had an impact with women in certain communities, genuinely scared as a result. And the local MP says police are treating it as a racially aggravated assault.

And it's left the sea community in particular, very, very worried. But we must say we obviously don't know exactly what happened. And we know that a suspect in his 30s was arrested on suspicion of rape earlier this month and has been bailed pending injuries. But there's a lot of unknowns here that, you know, we just don't know at this stage. Seema, thank you very much for speaking to me this morning. And on BBC Sounds, you can listen to File on Four Investigates Inside the Migrant Hotel

in recordings made as demonstrations unfolded this summer. Sue Mitchell takes listeners into the closed world of migrant hotels. 84844 is the number to text. Now, I want to tell you about a brand new series of conversations. We're launching The Woman's Hour Guide to Life, which will be available from this coming Sunday, the 28th of September on BBC Sounds. You'll find it in the Woman's Hour podcast feed only on BBC Sounds. And if there's a topic or an issue you want us to cover, then get in touch.

And you never know, it could be your topic covered on the podcast. The text number is 84844. Now, James Hodgkinson was a 28-year-old trainee paramedic based in Nottingham. He was killed by a teenager from the same town in 2011. Jacob Dunn had rushed into an altercation involving his friends outside a pub and threw a single punch. This tragically killed James and Jacob went to prison for manslaughter. After serving time in prison, Jacob found himself lost and directionless and searching for answers. James' parents, Joan and David, asked to meet Jacob, sparking a transformation in all their lives.

The play punch, written by James Graham, is based on Jacob Dunn's memoir. It's on the London stage with Julie Hesmond Halsh playing Joan Scorfield, James Hodgkinson's mother. and I'm pleased to say that Julie and Joan both join me in the studio. Now, welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you, Anita. Thank you for having us. It's a remarkable play to watch. Incredibly moving.

Julie, it leaves you with so much to think about on so many levels. And I know this is the third time that it's been put on stage, Nottingham last year, the Young Vic, in London earlier this year. And now it's on at the Apollo. For our audience, can you briefly explain what it's about? Well, as you say, it's by James Graham, who is known, of course, now as the State of the Nation playwrights. So this is a Nottingham story.

It's very much based on Jacob's memoir. And Adam Penford, who's the autistic director of Nottingham Playhouse, thought it would be an amazing thing to make that memoir into a play. And James was the only person who could really write that, being from Mansfield himself. So the play takes us through the journey of Jacob Grub. growing up in Nottingham in the Meadows estate and leading to the moment when he punched James on a night out and subsequently killed him. And then, as you say so beautifully, the process of transformation that went on after he was released from prison and met up with Joan and David through the organisation, the amazing organisation remedy, who bring people together through restorative justice, which is something that the play,

And the wraparound is very much concerned with making more available to victims of crime now. Joan, what was it like seeing the play for the first time and seeing Julie play you? I think Julie had her work out play. I don't know how she goes from being so upset to the funny parts that James has put in the play. But the play comes across just absolutely amazing. People just have to remember that when they go to see it, it's two and a half hours. we've done this over years but obviously I've got a very good

strong connection with Jacob now and we will talk about that because that is the heart of the story your immense compassion it's remarkable but before we do tell us about your son James what was he like James was a big worry to me

because he was a very adventurous doing all sorts of skiing jumping out of helicopters to do the somersaults, downhill biking in the Alps. So every time he used to go on these holidays, he used to worry me that he would really injure himself because he just was this adrenaline junkly. But he was a loving son.

Always home when he could from his career, when he could get home to parties or family dues, regular text messages, silly jokes or loving messages. Yeah, he was 28, and, you know, what could go wrong? But things did go very wrong, and if it's okay, could you tell us about that night? I know your husband was with him. So he'd gone out as we send or tell our kids stay together. I mean, it wasn't a child at 28, but you say stay together and, you know,

and so they'd gone to watch England at Trent Bridge. afterwards they went for a couple of pubs on the way to city centre at the end of the night they were in the 8th bar and I don't know why but they'd worn pirate outfits to the cricket apparently that's what they do some of the pirate stuff had got displaced and James went outside and somebody had got some bits and he said oh come on make give us the bits back

unbeknown to him this other boy had text Jacob and said, come on, something's kicking off, come and support us. So Jacob not knowing anything about it, just running, James being the unknown boy in the gang. Gee, he just punched him. With that, James fell to the floor and back cracked his head. I was at work that night on a night shift. I come home in the morning, went to bed and got a phone call to say that I'd got to get up to not to him because he was going down for emergency surgery for a bleed on his brain.

And he was on life support for nine days? He was on life support for nine days. Well, he watched him fade, really. I mean, at first we were very hopeful. And they tried to turn off the machine, but he couldn't breathe unaided. So he had further surgery. But when we saw him failing, what would we do into us and him? So I asked for the machine to be turned off.

I don't think anyone can imagine what that must have been like. Jacob done or sentenced manslaughter. What propelled you and your husband David to then be in contact with him? Firstly, Jacob served 14 months. My son's life was worth more than 14 months. I had to do something. The police had done their job and they'd done it very well. They'd caught him.

but the police aren't also interested in, you know, the questions about the night that the family would have, you know, was there a reason for this? And so we had to find a way forward. I was very bitter and bitter about the justice system for the 14 months. And then we were offered restorative justice, and we can't highly recommend it enough. Explain what it is.

So restorative justice for us. It was, first of all, they didn't think Jacob would engage with us because he'd already served his time and they weren't, you know, would he even answer the questions? Luckily he did. With answering the questions, after a while I asked him, what would he do of his life now? And I think he was shocked, I cared what he was going to do.

It was that question. It was that question. So you were, it's almost, you were interested in him? I was, because I didn't want him to go out and do it to somebody else. I didn't want this revolving door of him going in that prison. Yeah. There's a moment in the play where you say, Julie, when you're talking to Jacob's character about how you are thinking about how James would behave.

You were thinking about how your son would behave in that moment, which is so moving. What would James, because he always did the right thing. How did you find that level of compassion within yourself to want to talk to him? I think it was just trying to stop it happening again. is trying to get answers. And I think obviously now, as everybody knows, we've done more for Jacob than prison would ever have done. If it is so, a lot longer, he wouldn't be where he is now.

He's done a degree in criminology. He's out there talking about his experience. He's done a TED talk. It really is remarkable. But, I mean, Julie, the production plays out. And Penny's still with us. Because Penny and Julie and Joan were having a really interesting conversation. So we thought we'd keep you here, Penny,

because we know you've got things to say about this book. To talk about the production, it plays out in terrible detail the night, and it looks at who James and Jacob were and their backgrounds, but it also looks at the bigger picture, the impact of social deprivation, in an era of austerity, the prison system, young offenders. Why was it important to bring all of that into this? Well, I think that what it does best and what the user particularly can do best

is to help us step into the shoes of others and to open our minds to other people's experiences and to cross those divides and that is also what restorative justice does so brilliantly it brings people together and encourages conversation. The Forgiveness Project is a fantastic organisation who's helped us a lot with the production

and are doing a lot of after-shore talks during this West End run just about how we are as a society, how we are missing each other, how difficult it is to forgive. what forgiveness actually is. And I think those subjects outside this very personal story are very prescient at the moment,

the way that young men are being failed by the system, particularly within the criminal justice system, the way the social architecture fails communities, you know, that is a big part of the play. And so I think that quite beyond the very, very, particular story. It has a lot to say and we have a lot to learn from it. And what is wonderful is the audiences that we have coming because of our fantastic producers. We have a lot of school children coming, state school children. We have a lot of community groups and we have a lot of

policy makers coming as well because we want this play to take this message out into the world that things can change and there has to be a different way. We want more people to know about restorative justice. We want to give that opportunity to to more victims to be able to ask for it because it's such a healing process. But we also want forgiveness and compassion to be at the heart of conversations around the play. It's such an interesting play.

I watched it with a group of people last night and everybody was just stuck to it because it brings up questions in all of us because it's society, you know, Friday night out. All of us. I mean, Penny, the conversation you were having was incredible that I overheard in the green room which was about your own 19-year-old son,

but also being out on the streets having to patrol on a Friday night. Well, in the nighttime economy, it were often, like I was last night, I know, called to an incident where there was two groups of young lads getting into fights. And I often tell my 19-year-old,

you know, your intention I know would never be to physically harm someone to the point where, you know, it causes a death, but accidents like that can happen. And yes, in your case, so sadly, that use of force was intentional, but I'm sure he never intended for your son to lose his life. And these things can so easily happen under the influence of Alco and other misuse of things. It's just so remarkable, the amount of compassion and forgiveness and empathy you have.

And this restorative justice played out in this play, I think, is going to be so powerful. And it really does need to be rolled out. like you said, to schools as well, to really educate young people, young lads to the potential dangers on a simple fun night out. There's another scene in the play that struck me. Thank you, Penny, you're right. And it's when your husband refuses to shake hands with Jacob because he doesn't wish to touch the hands that killed his son. Did that actually happen? On the first meeting, that did happen.

So it was harder for your husband to work through his grief. I think he was there and he witnessed the attack, so the punch, so that he has different issues to myself. I know you're invited into schools and prisons to talk about forgiveness, Joan, and the impact of one punch and alcohol-related violence. What sorts of questions are you asked? All sorts of questions, you know, they ask me about, you know, what actually happened with James.

but you know the main thing is to get across to youngsters it's not your action both families ripple effect both families it has you know and and you lost your boy and i know he wasn't a boy but he was yours and so young i can't imagine for a second the pain uh what keeps you shining a light on restorative justice and the impact of alcohol-fueled violence for all these years Hoping to make a change. Hoping to make a change. At the time, I wanted Jacob to serve a lot longer in prison. Now I don't look at it like that.

I look at if restorative justice is offered to everybody, then, okay, it's not going to work for everybody, but hopefully for some people it's going to make a change. You're already making a change. You really are. Oh, yeah, yeah. And it truly is an incredible production as well. Thank you for coming in to speak to me.

Thank you, Joan. Thank you, Julie and Penny. Thank you as well. We've got actually stay there because we've got another item. It'd be nice for you to all hear this as well because it's the women's rugby World Cup final on Sunday, Saturday between England and Canada. I never knew much about rugby until we broadcast live from Blade and Rugby Club

and Gateshead you might remember, head of the first game. If you didn't hear that episode, I highly recommend you listen back on BBC Sounds on the 22nd of August. I also had a go. Well, now for the first time in history, an all-female grounds management team will be prepping the pitch for the women's final. It's ground-breaking, sorry for the pun, and only 2% of grounds managers are women, and there's a recruitment crisis looming. While joining me now is Cheryl Hill, who's part of the team and is at Twickenham Stadium right now with Jennifer Carter, part of the Grounds Management Association. The GMA is a not-for-profit organisation that supports groundspeople across the country.

Cheryl and Jennifer, good morning, welcome to Women's Hour. You're making history. How does that feel? Good morning to you. It's an unbelievable experience. What does prepping the ground involve, Cheryl? So yesterday, all those ladies arrived and we had like a tour round just to get the feel of the atmosphere in that.

A few of the girls cut the pitch and then another half of the girls. Oh, and the... Oh, you're there. There we go. And then me and three others we did. pitch inspection. We did a pitch inspection, so that was the firmness, the moisture, and yeah, that was yesterday. And then today we're just waiting to get onto the field after training.

15 women together, Jennifer. How long does it take to prepare the grounds? This is so fascinating, just to understand the preparation of the ground. Yeah, I mean, this project has been probably about 12 months in May. last year we pulled together an all-females grounds team at the North London Jarby which was for the WSL and I thought you know we've put grounds women on a national stage you know we want to do it on a world stage because ultimately we are in a recruitment crisis at the moment

like you say you know we were 2% it's uplifted to 10 but there's still a lot more work to be done and ultimately this is about recruiting and inspiring more women and young people to secure the future of the industry. Cheryl, you've spent 35 seasons helping to keep Lester Tigers pitch ready. Did you ever imagine you'd be at Twickenham? Is it what you've been waiting for? No, never in my wildest dreams. I'm just, I never thought I'd get the opportunity.

I've come as a spectator when Lester Tigers have played here in the finals and that, but never thought I would actually be helping prep the pitch for a World Cup final. I have to say, Cheryl is an absolute stalwart in the industry, and it's an absolute pleasure to have someone like Cheryl on the team, along with the other 14 women from right across professional sports, from Lord's, Wimbledon, you name it, right down to a local rugby club. It's just amazing to have 15 female altogether on this team. What do you enjoy about it, Cheryl?

being outdoors and the main thing for me, so it'll be like for tomorrow, we'll get the pitch, prepped, she'll look beautiful and not just here, but also back at Leicester as well. Yeah, I'm just so passionate about her. Why, why?

She's underselling it here. Yes, come on, bigger up a bit more, Jennifer. Yeah, sorry, go on. No, I just want, you know, she's totally underselling herself. I mean, ultimately without people like show her, and grounds team across the UK, there would be no sport. These guys make sure that sport is ultimately possible.

Why is there only 10% of women make up the workforce? And I know you're on a recruitment drive as well, aren't you, Jennifer? Yeah, I think, to be fair, surely, it's an archaic thing. It's a legacy thing, and that visibility hasn't been there. So if you can see it, you can be it, and that's what events like these are ultimately trying to do. you know, women are key to closing the gap, but ultimately remain underrepresented. So we're desperately trying to recruit more women, particularly young people, because

our industry, the average age is around 55. So it's really important we bring this younger generation through to stabilise the industry. Okay, well, I'm going to give you a minute to do your pitch because, ha-ha, sorry to bring in another terrible pun, because we were discussing it this morning and we thought, what a lovely, it sounds like a very mindful thing to do, to be, out there just prepping the lawn so I bet there's lots of people listening who thought oh my listening might want to give it a go

yes Anita can I stop you there please do not call it a lawn it's a pitch please oh sorry a pitch staff anybody who works in the ground industry does not like it to be called a lawn it's called a pitch it's a pitch

I'm so sorry about that I don't have to be green fingered yeah do you have to be Penny wants to know if you have to be green fingered no you don't have to be I mean, that's the beauty of this industry is you don't necessarily need a qualification to join. But, you know, we encourage that training and qualification as you progress. I mean, ultimately, get down to your local club and volunteer.

Like, anyone can get involved. I suppose kids, when they're looking for training and work experience, maybe you can roll it out into schools for work experience. in local areas. There's an idea. They've lined as... We work with professionals. Oh, sorry.

Oh, I know where they've gone. Oh, well, I guess people can just get to their local pitch and to get involved. Well, brilliant. I mean, and it is the Rugby World Cup this weekend. So thank you, Jennifer and Cheryl. Good luck with getting the grounds ready ahead of the Women's Rugby World Cup final tomorrow,

which you can keep up with our coverage of that across. the BBC. Now, at the beginning of the program, I asked people to get in touch. If they've ever stood up for anybody and defended anyone, I stood up for an injustice, a couple of messages here saying, it's so wonderful to hear Penny's story told so articulately. I'm going to ask my 12-year-old daughter, who's currently being bullied at school to listen, to learn to understand empathy when facing bullies is such a life skill, and I hope it will inspire her to hear how Penny got through it. That's wonderful. That is inspiring because, you know, that's part of the reason why I did the book because it's been healing and helpful for me to tell my story but in turn

ultimately was to help other people go through similar situations hence the name someone like me so that's wonderful to hear so yeah good good luck to her with that and just find the support and love around you and you'll get through it and another message here from holly who says my english teacher in the early 70s used to ridicule me and my friend in our english lesson because we hadn't learned our spellings she would make us stand up and draw attention to us in front of our peers We're both dyslexic. I would spend ages learning my spellings, but I could never achieve getting more than one correct in the lesson.

I'll never forget the humiliation of those times. She did that as both. However, we both went on to have an artwork in the VNA collection. So being dyslexic doesn't mean you're not worthy. Only people do that. And she's 62. And I signed it, I like this. Holly Sele, 62, artist.

Artist. Well, done to you. See, we have created creative juices in other areas. We can succeed where others can't. So good, well, congratulations and well done. And there's a reaction coming through about the play. And what, Julie, is the sort of message in the legacy? What would you want people to walk away from the theatre after watching the play?

What do you want them to lay feeling? Well, I think for me and John, James, is at the heart of the play. And we want people to know that there is a different way to be a man than some of the ways that are being encouraged in our communities and wider society at the moment. But I also think it is about reaching across the divide. Jacob and John share a platform now. They talk together in schools and prisons.

That is something that is so hard to imagine for any of us. And it's so inspiring. But that is the message of the play that you can get beyond something and make change out of tragedy. And that there is a way of changing the world that is more about rehabilitation. and a different kind of justice and a way of trying to understand each other

and move forward. And I think that now, more than ever, that is so important. And I would encourage people to come on our Tuesday nights when we have fantastic discussions after the show from the Forgiveness Project. Well, Julie, what a brilliant way to end today's programme. We've had a message in from Debbie saying, I've thoroughly enjoyed listening to all the inspirational women

you've had on today. They're all amazing. Thank you for bringing their voices to air. Do join me tomorrow for Weekend Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. From BBC Radio 4, The Fort. Royal Marines and Army pilots speaking for the first time.

We felt there were Taliban fighters coming through this complex called Jugram Ford. It was the most intense firefight I've ever been involved in. The word gets around that Fordy is missing. The Apache pilot said to me, You just need four volunteers. We secure them to the Apache wings and we'll go back and get Lance Corporal Ford. Get me four Marines

and I will take them in and we'll get that boy home. Listen to the fort on BBC Sounds.