Woman's Hour - Performance poet Salena Godden, Taiwan's female president, Gambling, addiction, Narcissistic mother, Kelsie Grieg gamer.

Episode Date: March 31, 2023

Taiwan's first female president, Tsai Ing-Weng, arrived in New York yesterday to criticism from China. She is stopping over in the US on her way to Central America, but may meet with US House Speaker Kevin McCarthy on her return. China says that if it goes ahead, it could lead to a 'serious confrontation'. To find out more about Tsai Ing-Wen and the significance of this trip, Anita speaks to Tessa Wong, the BBC's Asia digital reporter who regularly reports on China.Pessimism is for Lightweights is a new collection of poems by the celebrated performance poet Salena Godden. It consists of 30 poems written to celebrate courage and resistance, including poems responding to the Women's march, period poverty and everyday sexism. Salena joins Anita to discuss the collection, how poetry can confront misogyny and injustice, and why she personified death as a woman in her debut novel Mrs Death Misses Death.Tracey Stevenson describes her experience of using a gambling site. In 2017 she was sent to prison after stealing £1.7 million from the company she worked for, in order to help fund her online gambling addiction. She also works for the St. Giles Trust helping women in the criminal justice system.We have recently heard from two sisters - we are calling them Charlotte and Louise. One had a revelation in therapy that their mother was a narcissist and the realisation has changed her life. The other is more cautious - she knows their mum could be 'volatile' but she has empathy for her.Ena Miller talk to the two sisters together. What impact has all of this had on their relationship? Can they move forward?Kelsie Grieg, or Kels as she's known in the gaming world, made history recently when she became the first woman to qualify for the Call of Duty Challengers Elite tournament. She explains how swapped the football pitch for video games after an injury forced her to give up a promising career on the pitch. Presented by Anita Rani Producer: Louise Corley Editor: Beverley Purcell

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Morning all, we have made it to Friday and today I'm going to be joined by the writer and performance poet Selina Godden. Her brilliant new poetry book is called Pessimism is for Lightweights, a provocative title that really makes you think. So today I would like to know from all of you, what keeps you optimistic? What gives you hope? What makes you feel strong? What gives you courage? When life seems like an uphill battle, what gets you through? Is there a quote, a song, a book, a piece of art, a poem you always go back to? Is there a person you call who always

boosts your soul, puts the fire back in your belly? Is there a place you go to in your mind or indeed a real life place that helps you get up to plow forward on the days you just want to hide away? What pushes you through the struggle? Share your wisdom on how to stay optimistic and you never know your words might be just what someone else needs to hear today here's a burst of something just to lift your spirits just think of it as a gift from me to you optimistic by the sounds of blackness because why not you can text me 84844 you can contact me via email through our website you can also leave me a whatsapp note 03700100444 and it's social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour. Share your wisdom on what keeps you optimistic with me. Also, we enter the world of gaming this morning.

Kelsey Greig has made history as the first woman to qualify for the Call of Duty Elite Tournament. She'll be telling us all what that means. And Tracy Stevenson will be joining me to talk about her addiction to gambling, which led her to steal £1.7 million and ended up with a stint in prison. And of course, I'll be peppering the programme with your optimistic words. That text number once again, 84844. But first, Taiwan's first female president, Tsai Ing-wen, arrived in New York yesterday to criticism from China. She's stopping over in the US on her way to Central America, but may meet with US House Speaker Kevin McCarthy on her return.

China says that if it goes ahead, it could lead to a serious confrontation. Taiwan considers itself a sovereign state, while China views it as a breakaway province that will eventually be reunited with the mainland. The last time a US Speaker met with Tsai Ing-wen, Nancy Pelosi, in Taipei last year, Beijing responded with a week of massive military drills in the waters around Taiwan. Well, to find out more about Tsai Ing-wen and the significance of this trip, I'm joined by Tessa Wong, the BBC's Asia Digital Reporter, who regularly reports on China. Tessa,

welcome to the programme. Tell me about President Tsai Ing-wen, who made history as Taiwan's first female president. What kind of leader is she? Yeah, so she, as you said, became the first female president of Taiwan. She actually, before that, made, you know, there was another milestone where she was the first female leader of a major political party in Taiwan. So in many ways, she's broken through a lot of milestones.

So she is generally been very popular in Taiwan because her party is known to be taking a very firm stance against China. Although it has to be said that in recent years, you know, her party has dipped in popularity mostly because of its handling of economic issues. And quite shockingly, she stepped down as chairperson of a party quite a few months ago, which means she may not seek re-election in the next presidential term. The next election is coming up in January 2024, and she's likely to groom another successor and

it won't be a woman, it's a man. But in many ways, she is very well respected in Taiwan just because of what she's done in her legacy. So she's broken a glass ceiling, huge glass ceiling. But what about her cabinet? What does it look like in terms of gender representation? Well, it's not quite 50-50. I did a quick count recently and there's 22 positions. There's only eight of them that's filled by women. But interestingly, women do hold quite important positions in the cabinet. So there's a woman who's holding the position of the Minister of Finance.

The Minister of Economic Affairs is a woman as well. The Minister of Digital Affairs is a transgender woman. She was born a man, transitioned a few years ago. And, you know, just a few months after Tsai actually became president, she invited her to join the cabinet. So in many ways, Tsai could be seen as being quite progressive on some of these issues. So let's talk about this trip to New York. Why is she visiting? Well, ostensibly, she's trying to show up support among the dwindling number of countries that support Taiwan. As you've explained to your

listeners, you know, there is a lot of tension between China and Taiwan. And as China has kind of risen as a global superpower, so has its influence. And in recent years, it's managed to convince a lot of countries around the world particularly smaller countries that used to recognize Taiwan as a sovereign country it's convinced them to kind of switch recognition to them to Beijing so there's very few of them left now there's only 13 countries in the world who recognize Taiwan and so Tai is kind of going around Central America to kind of show up support among them. But really, she is trying to show up support in the US as well. And it comes on the back of

rising Taiwan and China tensions, rising US and China tensions as well. So she's making a stop through New York, going to Central America. And then the real fireworks are suspected to happen when she comes back on her return trip. She's going to stop by L.A. and she's going to meet the U.S. House Speaker Kevin McCarthy. And China has already warned that it's not going to be very happy about that. She's been speaking at multiple events, but they weren't open to the press or the public. Do we have any idea of what she's been saying? Well, some of these events, the transcript has been released to the media. She has met with overseas Taiwanese, she has met with think tanks. And it sounds like she's very

much kind of, you know, preaching the gospel of, you know, improving Taiwan and US relations. You have to understand that Taiwan is very reliant on the US. It is probably the biggest ally it has at the moment. And it was a big thing when in 1979, the US decided to switch formal recognition to Beijing. But it has also promised to defend Taiwan essentially, should there be war that breaks up between China and Taiwan. So to her, it's really important that she kind of really strengthens that relationship while she's in the US. So it's certain that she's meeting up with Kevin McCarthy. It's not just speculation. Well, I think most people expect her to. And I think, you know, China's warning that there will be serious consequences.

What do you think that means? What do you think that means? Well, I think a lot of people who don't really know what's going on might think, oh, God, is there going to be war? You know, that's the perennial question. But I don't think so. I mean, most people who report and observe, you know, what's been happening, I think it's very obvious that China would never risk war with Taiwan, you know, even over a trip like this. I think really what it might mean, it might mean economic sanctions, trade sanctions, for example, between China and Taiwan. You know, despite the tensions, they still do a lot of trade between the two of them. There could be more pressure on international bodies and other

countries to further shift away their alliance from Taiwan to Beijing, that sort of thing. I think it'd be a continuation of the sort of thing that we've been seeing from China in recent years. And I'm sure it'll be something we'll be coming back to. Tessa Wong, thank you very much for bringing us up to speed with all of that. 84844 is a number to text. Lots of you getting in touch about what makes you feel optimistic. Bruce Springsteen singing Born to Run at top volume

gets me through a tricky moment. This first happened by chance on the way to pick up a dear friend to take her to a difficult medical appointment. It worked then and has been my strength and stay many times since. That's from Francis in Poole. That'd do the job, wouldn't it? The reason I'm asking you is because of my next guest. Do you believe in the power of optimism to enact change?

Well, Selina Godden certainly does. She's the much acclaimed performance poet and writer whose new book has an intriguing title. Pessimism is for Lightweights. It's a collection of 30 poems written over the past five years celebrating courage and resistance, including poems responding to the Women's March, the stigma around periods and everyday sexism. And I'm delighted to say that Selina is with me in the Women's Hour studio. Welcome. Hello, Anita. That was a lovely description of everything I do. Yes. Thank you.

It's an incredible book. I've got it in my hands because it's so tactile as well. Let's talk about the title. Where does it come from? Okay, so Pessimism is for Lightweights was first coined, the phrase first coined by John Higgs. And John Higgs is a lovely friend of mine, amazing author. And I was at one of his talks or one of his books for the Cosmic Trigger play.

And I just loved it. I just really liked that title. He approached me and asked me to write a poem for him for his Watling Street book. And I said, only if I can call the poem Pessimism is for Lightweights. So it started as a commission, as a poem for his Watling Street podcast, for the podcast that went with his book. So the road that the poem's referring to is Watling Street, which is a very ancient road which goes all the way up the UK. There's a bit, I know I probably shouldn't read what John Higgs has to say at the beginning, but I love this bit. He says, to give up requires the knowledge that the darkness probably won't affect you in your daily life. Basically, to give up then is the privilege of abandoning others to their fate.

Yeah, he's got I mean, he's I really love John's writing. But this this phrase just really stuck with me. How can optimism enact change? How can optimism enact change? I mean, there's so many ways to answer that. And we don't have, I mean, I could really talk about that for hours, but let's try and be succinct. I think that in my life, when I look back, there's been times when my optimism has been squashed, or I've been shushed, you know, as a girl. And so to be optimistic and to have enthusiasm and to have fire and passion is going to get you a lot further than giving up and being pessimistic.

And to have that hope and to have that drive and to have it mistaken for weakness, you know, and to have all that energy has really been something that I've had to really dig deep and use to keep going and to survive. I think optimism is a survival. I think it's really important. I mean, I've often, I coined the phrase, hope is a group project. And this idea that if we're all hoping and we're all dreaming, we're going to get a lot further. If we're not visualising a better and more hopeful outcome, you know, if we're not imagining that and you know it is idealistic i take it i am idealistic i've always been idealistic but i don't think things are ideal

so i want to be idealistic yeah you don't have to apologize for that yeah it's pragmatic pragmatic optimism yeah um i would love to hear you read something You would? Yes please Shall we go for Courage is a Muscle? Okay well this is a very rallying kind of robust poem This is Courage is a Muscle Courage is the muscle we use when we speak If we're being talked over and told we're too weak And when we get weary and when it gets tough, it's our united courage says enough is enough. Courage is the muscle we work night and day

to get equal rights, to get equal pay. Our blood is taxed. Our blood is shame. Our courage unites us for we all bleed the same. Courage is the muscle we flex when we must. Courage is the muscle for truth and for trust. Courage is the muscle we use when we speak. If we're being walked over, talked over and told we're too weak. And when we get weary, we march side by side. A thousand years we're still marching with courage and with pride. Oh, yes. When did you write that?

When did I write that? I must have written it around the time when I think it was the first Women's March. And I remember specifically a fantastic gathering in Trafalgar Square and reading that to thousands of people. And it was just such a buzz and such a feeling of so much hope. It was an incredible moment. And it's the way you deliver it as well. You know, you are the words and the rallying cry that comes from within you. You've been described as a feminist poet. How can poetry be a form of protest?

I think poetry, I think my poetry has always been a form of protest. Sometimes we write poems because they're things we wish we could say. Sometimes we write poetry in afterthought of things we wished we had said in arguments or something. I think poetry and art and beauty and the way that we use the creativity to speak and say what we're seeing and feeling and observing and narrating the times, it's very much the role of the writer and of the artist to narrate the times. I've often said that there's a lovely place where poets are which is with the dreams but also somewhere in between journalism and being a comedian

because you can use the humour and you can use the facts and the observation of what's happening but you can also use a lot of heart and emotion and really get to the subject of things and I think that's why I love it. You've written so much about it. I mean, there's a poem that I would have loved to have read out, but it's a little bit too ruse for this time of day.

Yeah. You know, you write about the female experience periods and smear tests and the poem is Gentle Reminder. You'll just have to read it for yourselves. You often approach the subjects, like you say it with humor do you see an absurdity in the female experience do i see an absurdity i see um yeah i see a lot of silence around it i see that i use humor quite a lot to talk about things which are actually quite dark and quite deep and quite scary. But if you use humour, then you can kind of take a path in there that is easier than, you know, than going straight to the brutal.

So, yes, I've used humour a lot and written about cervical smears and periods. And now I'm writing about menopause. Here we go. So, yeah, I mean, using humor has been a really important part um you must remember of course a lot of my early gigs and the way I started was in a very male dominated poetry scene yeah because you left Hastings moved to London in the 90s yeah and one of the few women on that scene how did that inform your work well yeah I mean a lot of the poetry was very rhymey and also written to be shouted over the top of very you know raucous like little rooms in pubs full of people sloshing pints and smoking fags and also reading doing gigs at raves and at punk gigs so it was the kind of poetry that was very

visceral and the language was very visceral um you were shouting it. And because, you know, the line-ups were all men pretty much. You had John Cooper Clarke and Jock Scott and Irvin Welsh was doing train spotting and all this amazing, exciting stuff was happening. What a time, yeah. And then there's me jumping on stage, banging on about cervical smears. Great. In between it all. It was a lot of fun.

What did people make of you back then? I think liked it i think they did too yeah um as well as um you know i want to read something out that you've said in an interview last year i think this was a lovely thing that you said about amanda gorman uh amanda gorman in america standing there in yellow now there was a fantastic moment it was incredibly and powerful i wonder if in in England we could ever have a moment like that, where instead of putting an actor there reading something from an old dead white poet, we could actually have one of a young, hopeful, bright spark speaking since it's their future. Yes. Yes. Wasn't that? That was such a powerful moment. I think she's such an incredible poet.

In fact, I think the next generation of poets are just so exciting. I have such amazing conversations with 20-year-olds. It gives me so much. They have a fearlessness about them, don't they? Yeah, they really do. And they have a really difficult place. I've been thinking about this. Imagine if you're at a wedding and you're stuck between two aunties and there's two kinds of aunties. You've got the auntie that's like, I had it tough, so you should have it tough. And I was fine, so you should be fine.

Then you have the other auntie that says, I had it tough, but I want it to be easier for you. I want it to be better for you. And I like to try and be that kind of auntie, that kind of big sister. You're definitely that kind of big sister. I'm not going to put you in the auntie bracket yet. Thanks. Another thing you write about a lot is identity and racism.

And there's a really, I mean, every poem is amazing, but the poem No Holds Barred is about an experience that happened to you outside a pub. But your reaction to the racist incident was, I just, I can't,

you know, we're talking about optimism here, but there are some times where life just really punches you in the gut. It's very hard to find hope. But somehow you did something so magnanimous and the reaction was huge. Tell me about the poem. That poem was written of a true experience and someone was, I was outside a pub and someone was telling me to get back on my

boat and it was just and everyone was saying ignore her ignore her but I couldn't and I don't know I think it must have been the moon it was a full moon yeah but I stood up and just went and hugged her and it just felt like I couldn't hear her anger I could just hear that she was in pain and that she needed a hug so I went and hugged her and it luckily worked and we ended up just both having a cry under the full moon outside this pub and and that felt like I mean I wouldn't suggest that we all go hugging people you know when they're being horrible to us but maybe sometimes it's hear the pain and that people are in pain and and that's I don't know.'s very powerful yeah i think it's just yeah there's only certain people that could do that and really do it from a genuine place and

the poem when you read it you will see it's amazing we've got to talk about your debut novel that came out two years ago mrs death mrs death yeah in lockdown yeah in lockdown you personify death as a woman in it if you haven't read it it's brilliant uh why why did you choose to make death a woman um the novel's mrs death mrs death and in it i imagine death as a black woman as a powerful black woman um i was walking down brick lane and it was christmas time and i was quite low and quite blue and then, and quite, you know, sometimes I don't really like Christmas, OK? So I'm walking down.

Tough time of year for a lot of people. Yeah. And then I hear this voice and the voice says, I know a lot of dead people now. I know a lot of dead people now. And from there, this voice, it was a new narrator, a new story. And I remember writing and walking all through Whitechapel recording her into my phone

and that's where the character first came to me and she's, yeah, I think maybe based on one of my elders I have this amazing great-great-grandmother in Jamaica who smoked a clay pipe and was a medicine woman and a healer. And I like to think maybe there's some of her in there, some old Jamaican medicine woman, healer woman. And to think of death like that, I found it comforting and also exciting to write. So that's where that sprang from. It's so wonderful because you really make, like all your work, it makes you stop and think. I i'm just gonna read a quote from the book if i can selena for surely only she who bears it she who gave you life can she can be she who has the

power to take it away the one is she for there is no human more invisible more readily talked over ignored betrayed and easy to walk past than a woman than a poor old black woman a homeless black beggar woman with naughty natty natty hair, broken back, walking ever so slow, slow, slow. I love the way you read that. I just, you're always like, yeah. Whilst I was reading it, I was like, I can't believe I'm reading her words out to her

on the radio. I did have a moment within that moment. And it's been optioned. Is it going to happen? Is it being turned into a TV series? It's very exciting. It's been optioned by Idris El to be turned into, is it going to happen? Is it being turned into a TV series? Yes, it's very exciting. It's been optioned by Idris Elba and his production company, Green Door Pictures.

So look out for that. I'm very excited to see who will play Mrs. Death and who will play Wolf and how that book will look. I'm very excited, but I'm trying not to think about it too much because then that's very shiny and distracting. Yeah, there's lots of other stuff going on. I need to ask you about this. You wake up at 4am to write.

Indeed I do. I aspire to be in the 4am gang. I can't do pre-5. Pre-5 just feels like the middle of the night. Why wake up that early? There are so many answers to this. It's a habit that I picked up in my 30s when I was writing my memoir.

Firstly, no one will need me then and I feel like I can write as selfishly as I want. In theory, everyone's asleep and safe in bed, the people I care about, my family and loved ones, and I can be really selfish and absorbed, and no one's going to ring me or phone me or text me or email me. The other thing is I like to write very close to that very thin, milky time where the dreams are still very fresh and you're in between dream and awake. And I really love that.

And I also like to see the sunrise. I like to see the light come and I like to see that new day. And I like to have that feeling of it's a new day. It's a new life. That's probably why so much of my poetry has all this hope in it. Because I'm seeing that sunrise and I'm going, yeah, I've got another chance. We've got another go. We're going to try again. We're going to try again. And so I really love that.

I love watching the new day begin. Obviously, by five in the afternoon, it's all, oh, try again tomorrow. And then you wake up and start again. And you're making your passion pay having moved to London like I said from Hastings yeah grafting yeah and but this isn't new to you you were doing this when you were still at school you were writing poems for for school girls I remember very much I don't think I've I don't honestly I don't think I've ever done anything else with my brains I like writing making up songs and stories.

If you're referring to making up poems about teachers in the bike sheds for fags, yes, that happened. And swapping cigarettes for... Swapping poems for cigarettes for Valentine's Day, I remember doing that too. Like, Steve, don't ever leave. And then charging them 2B and H. It was the 90s. 80s. Yeah, that was the 80s even worse yeah um it is magnificent pessimism is for lightweights

30 pieces of courage and resistance and um more power to you selena it's been such a pleasure talking to you thank you so much i'm genuinely going to be referring to this book so much for the rest of my life and it's beautiful and the artwork in it is great as well the posters are fantastic yeah the artworks by craig craig oldham and yeah it's beautiful there's like posters and yeah it's very colorful yeah should we see what people are saying what keeps them optimistic yeah oh here we go someone said optimism enthusiasm drive loving listening to selena godden oh thank you a lot of love um sally says for me it's my wonderful family and friends during the pandemic i got back in touch with my old school friends we set up a whatsapp group

and three years on we're all still in touch several times a day we're now in our 50s and some of us live outside the uk but still the brilliant support for each other through the tough times got people thinking a lot of hope out there what keeps me optimistic is my two fantastic daughters i hope for the best for them. And that rubs off on them. They both have a great attitude for life. And that is wonderful. And Sabine says, my husband died 16 years ago, age 57 from cancer. In 2018, my youngest son was diagnosed with bone cancer.

Staying optimistic and resilient has been hugely challenging. But finding a creative hobby, in my case, calligraphy, which so absorbs me that I'm totally at peace when writing and have therefore no mental space to worry. Amazing. I love that. It's amazing. I love that. You're amazing. Selena Godden, thank you. You're amazing. Thank you so much. Thank you.

84844. Keep your thoughts coming in about optimism. On to our next item now. Three gambling businesses owned by William Hill will pay a total of £19.2 million for widespread and alarming social responsibility and anti-money laundering failures. I should say they were taken over last year by 888 Holdings, who say the company quickly addressed the identified issues with the implementation of a rigorous action plan, which happened under the previous ownership. The settlement announced this week is the largest in the Gambling Commission's history.

It comes after the Gambling Commission found new customers were able to bet large sums over short periods without proper checks. While Tracey Stevenson has past experience of using a different gambling site, in 2017 she was sent to prison after sealing £1.7 million from the company she worked for in order to help fund her online gambling addiction. And she joins me now. Tracey, welcome to Woman's Hour.

When did the gambling start? Oh, crikey. Now, that's a question. I've always gone to bingo. I started to go to bingo when I was 18 and did that every week and then went with my friends and everything. And that was just normal. Don't class that as gambling.

I class that as a night out. But then they stopped smoking. I'm not quite sure what year that was. I can't even remember. They stopped smoking in the – I am a smoker. So they stopped smoking in'm not quite sure what year that was um I can't even remember they stopped smoking in the I am a smoker so they stopped smoking in the bingo halls so it wasn't so much fun because you get all excited and you and you light up a cigarette and you're waiting for one number and you might win um and somebody suggested try online bingo so I did join an online bingo. So I did join an online bingo site and played bingo normally for quite a while, quite, quite a while, just playing bingo, spent the same money as what I spent every week as if

I was going, you know, to a live bingo hall. But then the games sort of, there was a lot of space in between games. There's only so many times you can get up and make a gop up. Only so many times you can get up and go and do something and come back for the next game. So I'd be sitting there and that's when I started looking around the site with what they call their side games and found the slot machines. And from then on, it was just downhill. When did you realise you were getting hooked?

Now, that is a very, very good question. I don't think you do realise you're hooked until you are really, really hooked, if that makes sense. It's almost like you're just doing it. You're always chasing that win. You know, I stopped playing bingo but yeah and you were and you were making wins as well as your losses weren't you oh most definitely I was getting and that is what what hooked you you think I can get that I can get that and I can get that and then in 2011 I won 225 000 which was fantastic and what did you do with the money I bought the council house that I

was living in and treated my family and did your family were your family aware of what was going on yeah they knew I was gambling they all everybody knew I was gambling because I'd always say when I won I didn't say when I'd lost and if I was asked how much I was spending because I'd always say when I won. I didn't say when I'd lost. And if I was asked how much I was spending, I'd lie. That's the big thing. I would lie. And you were an accounts manager for this company. I was. I was an accounts manager.

And you started funding your addiction through stealing from them. I did. Yeah. I'm ashamed to say, yes, I did. Not something I'm obviously not proud of. I did do it. It was purely to fund a gambling addiction. It wasn't to enrich my life in any way, shape or form in any other way.

I wasn't whittling any money away and doing whatever. It was purely for gambling. But the company suffered, though, didn't they, as a result of your actions? Oh, massively, massively suffered, you know. though didn't they as a result of your actions massively massively suffered you know um but that they didn't deserve that they didn't deserve that that was a lovely company to work for because they didn't deserve that you you're also buying houses with the wins but you're gambling paper free properties it did because I had another 1.6 million win in 2012 um in which uh we bought another house um in England and a house in Spain so when did it when did it all come crashing down

I mean obviously the company did wanted to know where all the money was disappearing to and you got found out and you were sentenced to four years? No, I wasn't found out. It was just before Christmas 2015. I just couldn't do it anymore. I was leading two separate lives. I had my gambling life and I had my normal life. And I just couldn't do it anymore. And I'd come to the decision just before Christmas 2015,

I was either going to kill myself or confess. I didn't have the courage to confess at that time purely because I didn't want to be rejected by my family or my friends, the shame that I'd rained down on them. And I didn't want to, I just didn't want to see their faces. or my friends, the shame that I rained down on them. And I didn't want to, I just didn't want to see their faces. I didn't think that I could cope with their faces. So my only other reason, option was to kill myself.

Then after Christmas, and I was off work, I was off work sick because I just couldn't face it, just couldn't go there. It was just horrendous. I had no choice. Then one particular day, I decided that that was the day, that was the day. So I wrote a letter, left it on the side of my bedroom, and I left the house. As I left the house, my son and his daughter, my granddaughter, turned up unexpectedly. So I then went back in the house and I sat there and I was ever so quiet. And he kept saying, you all right, mum? I said, yeah, I'm fine. You know, obviously I wasn't. I don't know what happened, but clicked in my head and I thought I

can't kill myself I cannot do that to them how could I lay any shame or guilt on them because that's what I felt I would have done if I'd killed myself I would have they would have thought why didn't mum talk to us why did she why couldn't she tell us we could have stopped it we could have helped her all the all the whys I did I just didn't want them to feel any guilt whatsoever yeah and you and you'd admitted to what you'd done in the note hadn't you I had yes yeah so he left and I told my husband and then you were sentenced to four years in 2017 you said you served two yeah but in 2016 16 but whilst you're in prison you got the gambling commission to look into your story why I hold my hands up every which way for

everything I've done you know I own that and I've always owned that and I take full responsibility for what I've done. But I felt that the gambling site that I was on, which was Gala Bingo, were culpable in some way because they allowed it to happen. And that should never have been, the amount I was spending was ridiculous. So how much blame do you apportion to yourself and how much do you put it down to the betting company?

I would say half and half, to be fair. For me, stealing, I take 100% responsibility for that. Absolutely 100% responsibility for that. But for the gambling side of things, well, I felt love bombed. They phoned me daily. I was given trips to Gibraltar. I was given trips out here, trips out there, trips out everywhere,

to concerts. I was even asked to trial their slot games before they went live to see what I thought of them. So I felt as if I was part of it, if that makes sense. I was really drawn in. The government gambling white paper is going to be published in due course. What do you think needs to happen to prevent people getting into difficulties? How would you regulate the industry? I would definitely lower. I'm talking about slots here.

I'm talking about slots here. I would lower the maximum bet that anybody could pay, that anybody could use. Because there were times when I was, I'm ashamed to say, doing £300 spins. It got ridiculous. The money didn't seem so real. It never touched my hands. It was all on paper. There was no cash. And on the screen.

No, no. And it's just awful. And I think they ought to stop the advertising on the TV, most definitely. It's aimed at women. It is aimed at women. Why do you think that? Because, you know, they don't really advertise the slots.

They advertise bingo as a social arena. You know, there are a lot of women that are at home looking after children. They might be lonely. And COVID, there are a lot of women that are at home looking after children. They might be lonely. And COVID, when COVID hit, you'd be surprised how many more people, you know, were addicted to gambling because that was their social side. You know, you'd chat to people in the chat rooms

and things like that. But then when you hit the slots, it just goes wrong. And now you're out of prison, you're back at at home you're actually helping women in the criminal justice system working with st giles trust yes but tracy when you sit with yourself thinking about what what the turn of events in your life and where you are now like how do you feel about it all and you know that that happened to you yeah um crikey I've forgiven myself it took a long long while but I have forgiven myself I'll forever feel the shame and the guilt for what I've did and and I'm I'd love to be able to speak to my old employers and tell them how I feel about I'd love to do that but it happened and I feel it had to happen because I am where I am now and I've turned a huge huge negative into a positive

and if my story can help anybody out there, even just one person, then it's worthwhile telling. Well, thank you very much for sharing your story with me this morning, Tracy Stevenson. Thank you for that. You're welcome. We approached the Entain group who currently own Gala for a statement. And they said this case dates back to 2017 prior to Entain's acquisition of the Gala brand when the business was under completely different management and ownership and tain's number one priority is customer safety and it leads the industry with its safer gaming approach through initiatives um such as its arc advanced responsibility and care program that takes a proactive approach to safer gambling if you'd like to get in touch about

anything you're hearing on the program then feel free to do so 84844 is the number to text lots of you come getting in touch about how to stay optimistic keep on doing making art and craft running and walking volunteering getting on with life makes me stay positive says maggie and the song shine by take that has frequently helped me keep going when it's been a struggle and a quote given to me by one of my colleagues tutors to despair is to betray the future. That reminds me that there is always hope. And that's from Jane and Barry. Now, do you know what a narcissist is?

Lists of traits and behaviors are as long as my arm, but a working definition is a person who is excessively preoccupied with themselves to the detriment of others. In the last couple of weeks, we've heard from two sisters. We're calling them Charlotte and Louise. One had a revelation in therapy that their mother was a narcissist and the realisation has changed her life. The other is more cautious. She knows their mum could be volatile, but she has empathy for her mother and is inclined to move on with her life. You can hear those two interviews on Woman's Hour on BBC Sounds

from the 21st and 23rd of March. But today you can hear what happened when our reporter, Anna Miller, brought the two sisters together. What impact has the fact that they had different experiences of the same mother had on their relationship? Their mum died years ago, but her influence lingers. Right, let's just move this armchair over and then we'll all be together by the fire. Did you find any stuff to jot any memories or anything? What I realised, actually, I don't actually have that many photographs of, Mum. I've got a couple, but what do you remember about this?

Oh, my gosh, that is, that's the slide view. Oh, good grief. We have the two or three times a year, a slideshow. Our slideshow is not boring wow hey it's pre-internet it was blooming wonderful at the time okay don't knock it so i'll take one out of the box no idea so there's a picture of us on the beach mum with the gritty sandwiches see that yeah with the gritty sandwiches yeah See that, yeah? With the gritty sandwiches. Yeah, yeah, she wasn't a great fan of picnics, was she? But there's the three of us, and mum would be the practical unwrapping everything,

putting it on plates. She always did the admin of life. I can't remember making a sandcastle with her. No joy. I can't remember her running in the shallows of the sea, going, you know, none of that. It would be, you know, you wore the right thing, you ate the right thing, you sat the right way,

and then you went home. Boss castle, if I remember rightly. When we talk about your memories of your mum, Louise actually has quite a lot of positive things to say about your mother. That's interesting I don't know whether I've just come out the other side having gone through a very very bad patch with her you know I didn't speak to her for years and maybe that's sort of wiped out positivity but the stuff I remember is I was angry, always being disciplinarian, always doing the admin, always in a rush and like irritable. There's never any sense of taking joy

in the moment. I mean, just chores of washing our hair, we were like nails in your scalp and you've got to suffer to be beautiful. But you mentioned her a lot in your wedding speech, didn't you? I said that I couldn't have gone back to work the way I did without her because she always said, never turn down a work opportunity because I will be there for you. And she was amazing. I'm not surprised that you've got more memories because you spent more time with her post the divorce do you remember her being in

mental hospital that first time yeah I can remember feeling very small in a very dark echoey tiled corridor seemed to be walking forever and then turning a corner and the door had to be unlocked and we were shown into a room and she was sitting awkwardly wide-eyed. And I thought I had done that to her because that's how she made me feel when she pointed down the stairs and says, look what you've done to me. How old were we? Eight.

So I would have been six. Yeah. So you only told me in recent time that that is the memory you've carried forward from that moment. I'm heartbroken only told me in recent time that that is the memory you've carried forward from that moment? I'm heartbroken you told me. I suppose I feel a bit guilty that I didn't realise. Yeah, but you couldn't have done anything. You were two and a half years younger than me at the time.

No, but in the interim time. But how would you have known? Because I could only articulate it really in the last decade or so. It just feels like there's a big, massive time in our lives where stuff could have been sorted and it just sat in limbo. It's such a shame that things didn't happen sooner. You said to me, Charlotte, that you'd wished you'd known sooner and then speaking to Louise Louise feels that she did know sooner she couldn't articulate it but you you say you did know sooner

well I I knew that there wasn't something right and my husband and my father-in-law called her out on it and by seeing through their eyes, it made me think, oh, not all mums are like this. And she threw that back in my face. She said, you've changed, he's changed you. All that came out, again, in a very ritualic, nasty way. But that just kind of proved that they were right. I saw how Charlotte tried to do things and it just fell back in her face.

Why would I put my head above the parapet in the same way? Cowardly, but it's also self-preservation in a way. It was always atmospheres, tensions, things unsaid. And I just got drained by it. Are you saying, mm, because you sort of disagree or, disagree or you're not bothered or you're right there were always issues tensions and and awkwardness just always was there for some reason Louise learned to cope in a different way I think it's what you said earlier, Louise, that it's just easier for you to have accepted mum's narrative. Absolutely. Which I regret in a way,

but that wasn't going to be the trophy because you'd already got her trophy. But there was that story of you all being lined up saying, this one will be the lawyer, this one will be something, and this one will be the engineer because she's very good at Lego or something. That was me, good at Lego. Still love it, by the way. I was caught smoking.

That didn't seem to bother her. I am amazed. But I think, again, I think that's terrible behaviour on her part because that will have devalued you in your own eyes. Yeah absolutely absolutely. So what's this like then having this mother different memories and then now trying to move forward? I don't know I think we're still working that one out. Do you think your mother's behaviour Louise had an impact on Charlotte? Huge and not for the good. Building her up and battering her down, building her up and battering her down.

Thank you. Right. I didn't know you knew. I didn't know all of it at the time. And I didn't know it was obvious to anybody apart from me. My feeling was that I was the outsider and there was no empathy for me. So to learn that you understood is a big thing for me. I think if you started to analyse it,

then you would uncover similar things that I have done. I don't think you've got the same anger issues that I have with Mum. Especially daughters of narcissistic mothers have low self-esteem issues. And I hope we both concede that we do. I want Louise to come back, if that's okay. Yes. I think that's in general fair to say. I think I'm getting better at being more independent lately. Whether that's because I've had time to reflect in talking to you and it's had to send a few seeds, I don't know.

But maybe it's just maturity and I've finally grown up. Yes, I lack confidence. But you've got leather trousers on, a red hairband, and you open the door with red lipstick on. And it's a Sunday and we're not going anywhere um it's weird because there are pockets of me that will shy away from arguments you know we saw a lot of arguments in our very younger years. I try not to sort of rock the boat too much and I will sort of keep things on an even keel. Do you think it's fair that Charlotte's going through her journey

and the therapy and I guess she's drawing it out of you? Is it fair? Yeah, I'm a sister. And if I can help her get out of it, then that's what I'm here for. But I backed off because I remember when I first went for that therapy session, I was like, oh, my God, mum's a vulnerable narcissist. And there was WhatsApp messages, ping, ping, ping, ping, ping. And I suddenly thought, hang on a minute, Louise is not the one in therapy here.

Yeah, I'm happy to think about shared experience. I'm happy to listen to Charlotte's experience. And I hope I reflect on it and I hope it makes me feel a little bit bolder and braver moving forward. Does that mean that you don't want to open that can then because you're worried what's inside? No, it doesn't mean that. But so long as good comes of it at the end.

I just don't think there's much to be gained from what, I'm not saying you are, this is generalism, of wallowing and dwelling in the past and going over and over. This was said, that was said, this was done, this is how I felt. I think, yes, address them, name them, analyse them, but the moving on's got to follow. I don't want to pick over the bones of everything, but for me, it's not so much about picking over things. It's understanding the dynamic in our

family. If you can look back and say, oh, there's the narcissist. Dad was the echoist who fed the narcissist's needs and didn't have a voice didn't really voice any opinions was this in his own words this unimportant little man did you know about this no she doesn't i was in the loft sorting things out the other day and i found a letter from him and one of the things he said he said i used to be this unimportant little man um but now I've I've done things and been to places and met people I never imagined that I could do life is for living darling and life is wonderful and he was so positive it was mum that made him feel like that unimportant little man. It's hard to hear. For two reasons.

The fact that he felt that way. That's awful. I never got any letters like that. Do you think he tried? Because, let's face it, Mum had previous for that. You know, Granny used to make us dresses out of all sort of lawn material with braiding round and Mum used to send the parcels back unopened.

Again, I've heard that, but I didn't witness that. Mm-hm. So the future. What is the future future what do you wish for Charlotte Louise it's gonna sound a bit boring but equilibrium you've done a lot of yo-yoing emotionally other sides of your life have been a roller coaster and actually sometimes just just a flat stroll lets you appreciate the view a bit more i hope all of this helps you to put things in a box with a label so you can move forward happier. Yeah, I don't even think I need to put it in a box

because I just feel now that I know what was going on, I now get it. I understand the part that we each played and it was revolving around mum, the narcissist and the family. I'm at peace with that. I have three words to say. The Christmas turkey story. Oh, crikey.

Well, this lives on every year. So mum would make a big deal about doing Christmas dinner. Every year, without fail she would say some people say that turkey is a dry meat at which point we would all be kicking each other under the table saying wait for it wait for it but i think if you cook it really well it's just perfect isn't it yeah she was waiting for those compliments to come flooding in so every year we still say do you know some people say that turkey isn't driving you've said what you've needed to see what now probably to have a session where we go out shopping, do a bit of crying, do a bit of drinking and laughing, and rebuild that sister relationship that's always been there,

but I thought had been fundamentally damaged. But yeah, it'd be nice for the two of us to spend some more time together. Do you want to spend any more time with her? I've got to have to. What a privilege to hear that conversation. Next week, we'll be hearing from a woman who cut off all contact with the mother she believes is a narcissist.

She is adamant that she had no alternative. And if you'd like to listen back to any of those, then head to BBC Sounds and just type in Woman's Hour and it will all come up. Now, at last night's BAFTA Game Awards, God of War Ragnarok dominated, winning six out of its 14 nominations with Vampire Survivors winning two,

including Best Game. Well, Kelsey Greig, Kelsey Gregg rather, or Kels as she's known in the gaming world, made history when she became the first woman to qualify for the Call of Duty Challengers Elite Tournament. She swapped the football pitch for video games a few years ago after an injury forced her to give up a promising career on the pitch, and she joins me now.

Kels, congratulations. Thank you. I appreciate it. It's still not sank in, which is really weird. Tell us about, because there might be lots of people who don't know anything about Call of Duty, the Challengers Tournament. What is it? Tell us a bit more about it. Oh, Christ, now you're testing me. Obviously, Challengers, you have the pro side of things, the Call of Duty League, and then the step below, which is Challengers. is it tell us a bit more about it oh Christ now you're testing me um obviously challengers you

have the pro side of things uh the call of duty league and then the step below which is challengers you know amateurs you know like semi-pro um obviously the CDL is a multi-million dollar you know league consisting of 12 teams but like I said um I'm in challengers which is the division below so and you are the first woman in that league. What does that mean? Incredible. It's incredible stuff. Obviously, it didn't sink in whatsoever until the next day I woke up. And it's still sinking, but it was incredible to put females on the map.

You know, that's really what I want to do. Why do you think no other women have qualified? You know, it's a male-dominated sport. Everyone knows that. I think confidence is a big thing. And on top of that, you know, sadly, it's like I said, it's a male-dominated scene and there's always types of discrimination, you know, sexism, which is sad. Have you experienced it? I have. I mean, the vast majority of the scene for me was really welcoming, but I have put up with a lot of sexism, you know, which shouldn't ever be the case. But sadly, it is. But it's a case of, you know, you just give it, you know, you just you just have to be thick skinned.

Within the gaming world, when you're playing, they come up to you. In what way? Obviously, it's a bit different when I'm playing. You know, there's a lot of people who do respect me. But even when I qualified, it was like, wow, you know, let's see if she can actually compete. Let's see if it's a one off. And if she can compete, then yeah, maybe it's just, you know, one of those. It's just the luck. Really interesting. Well, you are there. You are there and you've got there on your absolute merit, as we know. I read that you play for up to six hours a day. So what made you choose gaming from being a footballer which is so physical and outdoors

and then you switched to something that's so sedentary yeah it was a it was the complete opposite wasn't it was the complete switch um I mean being stuck in my room obviously it was a big thing a lot of my friends played Call of Duty so I thought okay I'll keep in touch with those guys um especially because it was alone you know it was lonely in my room sorry yeah um so that helped big time and then it just went from there really you know it was lonely in my room sorry yeah um so that helped big time and then it just went from there really you know playing casually with my friends and then getting noticed and the gaming world is very lucrative there is a lot of money um is this is this going to come your way are you going to start making squillions of pounds from all of this

now well you'd like to hope so wouldn't you you know is that the aim i mean obviously, obviously it's up there, but the main thing for me is actually just, you know, encouraging other females to do this, knowing that they can do it. I just, you know, I really hope that they just take the leap. Well, why do you think there aren't that many women who, girls who are playing or at this level? I mean, I guess a lot of it, like I mentioned, is like I said, it's a male dominated scene. It's intimidating and it's sad that you have to be thick-skinned. I think there's me in the Europe scene who's playing. So I think there's one female. And then in America, there's only two females that I know about that play competitively. And I guess it does just come down to confidence or just like, hey, you know, I don't really want to go near that. It's it is it can be really nasty, which is horrible to say. Well, you are going to change the landscape, I'm sure, just by talking about it. And being there is really important. Congratulations again. You're in the elite of the elite, Kels.

I appreciate that. It's like I said, I never well, I never really give myself enough credit. Like I said, I just want other people to do I want other females to do it. When I did it, it was kind of like okay it feels nice but again I just want other females to take the leap and realize that if I can do it anyone can I'm sure that is what will happen thank you so much for speaking to me and congratulations once again so many of you get in touch with your messages of what keeps you optimistic um Jennifer says since my brain tumor diagnosis dancing has kept me optimistic as well as having friends and family to talk to. And Pippa says, at the worst times of my life, I've survived. I lent on several things, but most of all, my love of poetry. During those dark months, I printed out my favourite, most uplifting poems, sucked them to the kitchen cupboard door so that when I couldn't sleep, I would see the words and they would remind me that there would be an end and I would be fine. And I was. That's it from me. Just to say that you can find any information and support about gambling on our website. Join me tomorrow for Weekend Woman's Hour.

That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. From BBC Radio 4, this is Breaking Mississippi, the explosive inside story of one man's war against racial segregation in 1960s America. I knew the state of Mississippi would stop at nothing, including killing me. James Meredith's mission to become the first black student at the University of Mississippi triggers what's been described as the last battle of the American Civil War. It's a fight that draws in the KKK and even President Kennedy himself. Can you maintain this order? Well, I don't know. That's what I'm worried about. And we must fight! I thought, wow, this could be it. This could be the beginning of World War III.

Now aged 89, James Meredith tells his story. I'm public radio journalist Jen White, and this is Breaking Mississippi, available now on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know it was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long

has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.