Woman's Hour - Period sex, Women and insomnia, Street harassment

Episode Date: September 2, 2019

Why is having sex while you've got your period such a taboo subject? Does the idea disgust you or your partner or has the experience brought you closer together? The BBC journalist Emma Barnett, author of ‘Period’, and campaigner Nimko Ali, author of ‘What We’re Not Told About (But We’re Going to Anyway) discuss sex when you're menstruating, otherwise known as period sex. Why are women thought to suffer more from insomnia that men? We discuss severe sleep deprivation – and how to try and get back to a healthy sleep pattern with Dr Shelby Harris who’s written The Women’s Guide to Overcoming Insomnia. We were contacted during listener week by the Instagram account ‘OurStreetsNow’ in response to our item about unwanted sexual attention. In August last year, France implemented a law to make verbal sexual harassment illegal, and to date they have convicted over 700 people of the crime. ‘OurStreetsNow’ is run by two sisters, Maya and Gemma Tutton, who are fed up with the catcalls and verbal abuse they received, and want to change the UK law to make it a fineable offence.If you drink alcohol when was the last time you had a drink-free day? Drinkaware - an alcohol education charity- has launched a Drink Free Days campaign- aimed at encouraging mid-life drinkers to moderate alcohol consumption by taking at least three drink-free days every week. Jane talks to their chief executive Elaine Hindal tells us more.Presenter: Jane Garvey Interviewed guest: Emma Barnett Interviewed guest: Nimko Ali Interviewed guest: Shelby Harris Interviewed guest: Maya Tutton Interviewed guest: Gemma Tutton Interviewed guest; Elaine HindalProducer: Lucinda Montefiore

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey. It's Monday 2nd September 2019 as I speak and this is the Woman's Hour podcast from that day. On the pod today we talk about periods, in particular period sex. We discuss insomnia, some tips on how you might get a better night's sleep and street harassment in the company of two fantastic young women that you will be so impressed by.

They want street harassment specifically to be made illegal in this country. So we'll hear about them and about their campaign a little later in the podcast. First of all, we discussed periods in the company of our colleague and friend Emma Barnett. She's presented Woman's Hour, Late Night Woman's Hour. She works on BBC Radio 5 Live and on Newsnight. And she is the author of a book called Period. And she was also in conversation with the anti-FGM campaigner Nimco Ali, who's written her book, What We're Told Not To Talk About But We're Going To Anyway.

They were both guests on this morning's podcast. And here is Emma answering my incredibly erudite question. Why did you decide to write this book about periods? Well, I felt having unwittingly become the first person on live TV news in this country to admit, if you like, I was menstruating during a debate about menstrual leave. And then my fellow presenters, this was on Sky News, looking like they wanted to puke. Lots of people then came up to me in the street and started telling me their stories, their wife's stories, their sister's stories, their daughter's stories, some of them awful, and some of them about periods actually quite funny, because dare I say it, we know this area on Women's Hour, women can be. But I felt that it shouldn't have been

controversial. And yet it was that I had just said, quite simply, I'm bleeding and it hurts right now. So that's where the book was born of people coming up to me with some stories of their own. And then the more I looked into it, and the history of the taboo and the shame around it, I realised that even though we're in kind of generation overshare, this is one thing that has remained stubbornly taboo. I've said it is a taboo. The other thing is what people earn. I would say there were two taboos.

What do I earn and periods have been the sort of thing. And if you have a period and what you earn are both taboos, then there you go. You've got things you can't talk about. That's me all over. Anyway, also with us, the anti-FGM campaigner and activist, Nimco Ali. Good morning to you, Nimco.

Good morning. Author of What We're Not Told About But We're Going To. What We're Told Not To Talk About But We're Going To Anyway. Thank you very much for correcting me there. We were talking earlier, the three of us, about the day our period started. Now, you remember the day. I think actually all three of us do. Some people say they don't even remember.

Yeah, I do. And in the book, there's a chapter about the first period because it is about the four stages of womanhood. And what we're told not to talk about, again, is why the book is called that, but we're going to anyway, because the fact that periods are things what we're told not to talk about, again, is why the book is called that, but we're going to anyway, because the fact that periods are things that we're not meant to be talking about. For me, I started my period at home.

It was either the weekend or the summer because I knew I was still in bed. And what happened was that I went downstairs and I told my mum I thought I was dying, even though the Tampax woman had come to our school and told us to get a special pestle case just in case you started at school and all these things. And ultimately, for me, it was quite different because I think there was a relief within my family that I had started my period. And I talk about that in the book and

the fact that I think my mum and my granny thought that because of the FGM, I might not. And I was quite late compared to a lot of the other girls. I was almost 15 when I started my period. And Emma, you found out you'd started your periods in the toilets at? Manchester's House of Fraser. Other department stores are available, but it was a cold cubicle. And I was there with my mum and I shouted out, what's this in my pants? What's going on? And she was this mixture of very excited, but also running around the shop floor to ask anyone if they had a spare sun, as she tells.

So when I came out, there was this weird nodding between the women on the floor. You have become a woman and a celebratory hot chocolate followed. And my mum really did imbue with me, which I then learned was actually quite rare, a sense of period pride, you know, which is which is another reason I wanted to put these stories together in a book, because I think not only can women be funny about this, we can also just talk about it in a way that I hope is normal with a sense of anything but shame, because this is the blood that life depends on, quite literally. There is still a shame, though. I should also say that my period started in the toilets at Skipton Baths.

So that's a special shout-out to the people of Skipton. You probably don't want to hear about that. Was it in the actual bath or in the toilet? No, in the toilet. I didn't actually get as far as the baths because, of course, I couldn't go swimming, could I? I was having my period. And I said that they wouldn't want to hear about this, the people of Skipton, because I have that internalised shame. And when I tweeted this morning that Woman's Eye was going to be talking about period sex, a predictable reaction,

some of it really negative, from women. So Emma, you've got a job to do here. I do. And interestingly, as I talked about those fellow panellists, two of them were women that I was sitting alongside. Women themselves, when I've said, what have you written a book about? I say periods. They are also the ones, not just the men, who say, well, what is there to say? And also periods of time. I'm like, no, menstruation, actually. I think shame is one of those things that travels continents and cultures. And it's one of the things that we, so we have a saying in our culture called means that you have no shame.

So any woman, so either of us, we have no shame in the sense that we're talking about things like periods and things like, and the vagina and so on. And ultimately, it's the silence that really grips everybody and I think we really need to start allowing women to understand that this shame they feel is not coming from them, it's actually something that's been imposed upon them. But I think just to talk about period sex specifically, it's two taboos coming together, that's why it's so potent.

And I actually hadn't thought there was going to be a book chapter, if you like, in this. When did you going to be a book chapter, if you like, in this. When did you decide to include a specific chapter about period sex? When I found an article online by a brilliant journalist in America, Maureen O'Connor, who coined the terms for men who particularly liked it. She coined the term bloodhounds. Oh, God. Which is, you know, something you'll remember once you've read it. And I spoke to her and

she said to me, you know, there is this fetish and it's not something that is talked about. And then I talked to her about who she'd spoken to. And I started to then interview women and men about how they felt about it. And I actually felt this was almost the apex of shame because a woman could feel like having sex at that time of the month. And yet she would deny it a lot of the time. Why would she deny it? She would feel she was dirty and the man wouldn't want to go near her. Or if she had a female partner, not necessarily a man, would want to go near her either. Because that shame that you speak

about, Jane, is so deeply buried. It's made to feel like you're dirty. And if I could just pause for a moment, because another part of the book is about religion, but I think religion plays a major part in our attitude towards period sex. Leviticus says if there is a man who lies with a menstrual woman and uncovers her nakedness, both of them shall be cut off from among their people. And the idea of it is

so deeply embedded into the Abrahamic faiths that you are unclean. How on earth do we start to unpick that in 2019? First of of all we should say some women um and i think you actually say you're one of them i mean you don't feel like having sex when you're having a period i mean i particularly have endometriosis i have a period disease very painful periods affects actually some women i should say with endometriosis one in seven women

have it we think um can't have sex at all because of endometriosis not one in seven but of the of the number of people who have endometriosis I'm very sensitive to that but no there's no way at that time of the month I could do it but I think the idea that you think you shouldn't I mean some of the names for periods some of the euphemisms up on blocks mistress week from a man's point of view you're out of service but from a woman's point of view, you're out of service. But from a woman's point of view, I think it's really interesting that it could be the week that you pay the period sex debt. So women I spoke to said, well, that's the week I do something just for the man. And that means oral sex for the man, presumably. Yes, it does.

That week. On a guilt trip? What is that? It's feeling like you can't service the other. And in one way, that's very generous and that's right. And if you want to do it, fair enough. Go on, Nimco. I was going to say, I think it might be a sense of not being wanted. And I think the other taboo, not just the period sex, is the female orgasms. And one of the key things is that just before you ovulate and also during the second or third day of your period, you are the most heightenly sexual and women do want to to have sex so those are the conversations about female sex and pleasure because i think we're also

looking at this um reality of the fact that if you feel uncomfortable if you don't feel that you might be wanted and desired then you're unlikely to actually reach orgasm and actually enjoy and enjoy that so a lot of women have kind of stopped the idea of trying to have sex during their period because of the fact that they know it's not going to be and it could make them feel better yeah but it could make them feel better and i think it's one of those things that you have to be able to if you are on your period if you want to have sex it's just one of those things that you should be able to do and i think it is about the liberation of women and i think that's a first world conversation that we're having but ultimately again in the fact about the religion and so on

there are places in the world where women when they're on their period they're shunned into huts so the idea of even thinking about sex is not even a it's not it's not even on the plates really of course not no it's not and i'm sorry can we just do a shout out though there are men that i did find out about uh and hear about who don't particularly love period sex but do it to help that partner well to help them feel better it can be brilliant for alleviating the symptoms of pmt an orgasm is going to help you isn't it yeah and the endorphins that are released and the way it makes you feel orgasms will always help you through anything stress like you know insomnia just put that on a t-shirt orgasms will always help you um okay i mean there is without a shadow of a doubt depending on the kind of periods you have and the point of your cycle you're at the

day of your period it can be really messy there is a great story in the book emma about the woman who has a very energetic and extremely satisfying one night stand in the states is it and then it was actually here oh was it i will tell just tell the story yes no she she's she's newly single and uh oh sorry this is one in the states excuse me that was in the states there was another one got one over barnet so you did there's another one who's newly single. Got one over Barnett there. So you did. There's another one who's newly single and she does wake up in a sort of crime scene as well. It's quite a common theme, it seems.

But yes, the woman in the States, Gillian Welsh, she gets together with her Amdram acting partner who's very attractive to her and they have sex and she wakes up afterwards

and he's gone for a shower and she turns the light on and she doesn't know how it's happened but literally her blood's all over the walls. There's handprints, there's everything. And instead of just dealing with this, maybe with laughter or talking to him about it,

she tries to clean the wall with her own spit and then she gathers up the bedsheets and she puts them into her rucksack and goes off on the subway and escapes without saying goodbye. And while she's on the subway, there's a random police check because it's not long after 9-11. And instead of telling the police officer why she's got bloodstained sheets, he pulls them out, looks at her and she's thinking, I'm going to go to jail for a homicide here. And she still doesn't find the words. And then she eventually says, I promise you it's innocent. I just I had sex on my period. And he just doesn't believe her and marches her to the man's house.

And he opens the door and says, yeah, we just had sex on a period like it was completely normal. So he's the period hero. Yeah. But a woman so ashamed of her night of passion and love, did consider a bit of time. Who is going to read your book and have their mind changed, Emma? Because I know there's been a positive reaction to it, but it's been probably from people who were on our side anyway. How are you going to change the minds of the people who tweeted me at 20 past eight this morning and went and sent a stupid gif? I actually did receive a note from a father last night of women in their 30s, an email who said, I've never wanted to read one before, but you've made it sound like I should, but also that it's entertaining.

And I think that's important. And obviously something that you do so brilliantly here at Women's Hour, which is that you make people laugh at the same time as giving them information. So not all of this is funny. There's some really sad tales in there. There's some very important tales. There's questions about identity. But I hope because everyone knows someone who's had a period and everyone is essentially here because of a period that it would talk to most people.

And because it's not a feminist tract that's taking itself, I would say, too seriously, or kind of a hippie sort of woo woo thing where it's like, love your period, whatever. I freely admit I loathe my period. I have a gratitude to it because I've managed to have a son after IVF. And I finally sort of have a purpose if I'm honest for it. But I hope it would speak to people across generations of both genders who feel they've never known anything about what it is to have this and how it's a monthly occurrence for over half of most women's lives and i think the normalization of the female body is fundamental for us to reach in equality and actually really acceptance through the like you know between the genders because we do if we are there are about 300 million women on their

periods as we speak right now yeah so the whole point is that there is somebody on the tube somewhere on their period someone you love or someone you know So the whole point is that there is somebody on the tube, somewhere on their period, someone you love or someone you know. And the idea of the fact that we shy away that half of the population could be on their period, like, you know, any given day, is something that we should be really, like, you know, scrutinising

because that ultimately means what else are we not talking about? If we're not talking about something as normal and as basic as periods, then other things are going to be shunned beneath. And I think we need to get over this idea that it's shameful. For me, we celebrated my period because of the fact that it was me coming of age. There are other girls that do that.

There are other girls that don't want to celebrate it. But ultimately, we have to say it's normal. And in my family, we have my niece, my little cousin, who's 11. And every single day, I'm just thinking like, when are you going to start your period? When are you going to start your period? Because life is to start your period because life is going to change her 16 year old brother is still a child to me but I know as soon as she starts her period at 11 or 12 her world is going to change and she's going to be put in a different kind of context but we can

allow her life to be freer if we're all more honest about this experience exactly yeah exactly okay I think well I think Emma's book is going to play a huge part in that. Thank you both very much. Thank you, all the best. Thanks, Emma. This is Woman's Hour. Any thoughts on that, of course, you can let us know at BBC Woman's Hour on Instagram and Twitter. This is something that I know does affect genuinely a lot of women, insomnia. You might have had a

really poor night's sleep because today I know schools in Scotland went back a couple of weeks ago, but today in the rest of the country has that new term, new feel element to the day. And Dr. Shelby Harris is the author of a book called The Women's Guide to Overcoming Insomnia. You might well have had a bit of a restless night last night. Now, Dr. Shelby Harris is a specialist in behavioral sleep medicine certified by no less institution than the American Academy of Sleep Medicine. Get that.

And Shelby says she is sure women are more likely to suffer insomnia than men. Yes, women are at a rate of three to two over men to get insomnia. It's really, it's a big problem for women. Well, why? There's a number of reasons. The biggest reason are hormonal changes throughout the lifespan. So even in teenagers, we see it start to develop with women more so than men because of hormonal fluctuations just before menstruation. Women can have insomnia just the days leading up to menstruation. Then there's pregnancy once you have a baby, and then perimenopause. All the

estrogen and progesterone changes that happen throughout really can cause insomnia. And then there's stressors. Women are now not just juggling things at home, they're juggling work, life balance, kids, there's just not enough time in the day. And the stress is really piling up on many women. Snoring men? Yeah, snoring men, snoring women, too, is another big factor as well. There's a lot of women who snore. And that can cause sleep apnea. And actually, then if you have an apnea, and you're snoring, it can cause you to have insomnia once you wake up. All right, let's let about, I suppose, the link to having children, because men are required to have children too, and they are around. But do we assume that a woman's

sleep pattern after having children will never, ever be the same or as good again? It should not be the assumption. And I wish that women knew that there were really effective treatments out there. Yes, there are times where your sleep is just not going to be as great after having a baby. That's what happens. They don't know night and day. And they need you. They need you. You have to be there. But once your baby, if your baby gets on a good sleep schedule, and I'm really all for getting your baby to sleep well, if you can get your baby to sleep well, some babies just aren't good at it. But if you can do what you can, then it helps you. And if you do still struggle, some women just feel that they can't turn their brains off. They're always listening,

even if their baby or their toddler or preschooler at that point sleeping well, they just can't turn their brains off because they're worrying what might happen, even though nothing's happening. Then there are really good treatments we can do that aren't just medication that can help you sleep better throughout the night. Like what? The biggest treatment that we have is something called cognitive behavior therapy for insomnia. And it's actually the gold standard treatment for insomnia without medication. So it's helping people to change their behaviors around sleep, whether it's laying in bed awake, tossing and turning, doing other things with sleep timing. So sometimes women try to go to bed too early or they go to

bed too late. They're not timing themselves properly. They're trying to nap when their baby's napping and that actually can worsen it. And then we teach women and men too, if we need to, but we'll teach women ways to worry effectively or ways to be more mindful during the day to help notice those noisy thoughts that are keeping them awake at night and to let them go a little bit easier. It's a very time-limited treatment, but it's extremely effective in the treatment of insomnia overall. And we really prefer it in the sleep field over medication. Medication, there is a danger, I guess, of dependency.

Yeah. People who pop a sleeping pill, perhaps after a hideous trauma of one kind or another, and many people will have had that experience where there was simply no way they could sleep unless they took a pill and then they find they can't stop. Yes there's definitely a place for sleep medication overall. The problem is is that at least I'm from the States and there it it has been prescribed as the first line treatment and it really shouldn't be. We should try behavioral treatments first. And if after four, six sessions, it's not working, then we do tend

to move to medication. They're really prescribing it less and less overall. And if you're just not responding to behavioral treatments, that's when we start to use medication. In the short-term medication, that's where it was really designed to be used at the beginning. And it really can be effective, but it's that long-term use that we do try to be concerned about. Okay. Now the perimenopausal sleeplessness can take various forms, but I think most people, most women will be familiar with the notion of waking up apparently for no reason at about 10 to three in the morning. Then you start thinking and you can't stop thinking. And then it's 20 past five. And then you start thinking about going to work. Yep.

And on it rolls. Yep. Apart from HRT. Yeah. Possibly. Is there anything else you can do? Well, cognitive behaviour therapy, there's more and more data coming out that it's really effective. Sometimes I find that women are, their timing of bed is really inappropriate. They're going to bed. So they're going too early? more and it can make things a lot worse. So I work with women on other options of things to be doing in the middle of the night. And then hot flashes are waking people up. That's why the HRT tends to be very helpful. But there are some herbs that can be useful, like black cohosh, but you should

always talk to your physician about that to make sure it's not going to interfere with any other things you might be taking. Yeah. I mean, I know we've discussed cognitive behavioral therapy on the program before. Obviously, in this country, we're very fortunate to have the NHS. It is wonderful in many ways. But any one of our listeners will tell you that CBT, although it may be very, very effective, the waiting list for it on the NHS would be pretty lengthy. What about exercise? First of all, let's not assume that everyone can take exercise.

But if you can, what is a decent amount of exercise to take? 20 minutes is really what you need about four to six hours before bedtime. So that's really the ideal. And it really helps to warm your body up and then help you cool off, which is the goal when it comes to sleep. So a lot of people try to exercise right before bed or just tire themselves out. That's not what you want to do. So 20 minutes of getting your heart rate up four to six hours is ideal. The one other thing to note, though, about CBT is that there's really good online programs just for insomnia. So if you can find that, that might be another option to try to. And the obvious stuff, don't drink a bottle of red wine at 9.30 and think, well, and I'll have a load of blue cheese, and then I'll be fine. You probably will fall asleep. Yep. You will fall asleep, but the quality of sleep you get is going to be much worse.

You might have broken sleep and just feel much more groggy in the morning, for sure. Pillows. I've got a bit of a thing. I mean, there are, let's be honest, there are some people who drag around the world their favorite pillow because they believe without it. It's a kind of adult teddy, isn't it? I flew here overnight with my own blanket that I love. I get it. That's very tragic, Shelby. We'll let it go.

What does it smell of, by the way? I dread to think. My kids. It just helps me sleep on the plane. All right. Okay. So we all have our weaknesses here. We all have our things.

But are we kidding ourselves in terms of pillows? Because there are, I remember when I couldn't sleep, and this definitely was perimenopausal, I couldn't sleep and I kept changing my pillow thinking that would be the answer it's not usually not usually same thing with like a mattress if you're tending to have chronic insomnia it tends not to fix the problem but there are certain pillows depending upon the position that you sleep in that are better so if you're a stomach sleeper a flat pillow tends to be better if you're a side sleeper there's other pillow tends to be better. If you're a side sleeper, there's other shaped pillows. So you want to look for something like that.

But to keep going from pillow to pillow to pillow is not always usually going to be the answer. And it's expensive. It's expensive, yes. Snoring, if whether it's you or your partner is and if you have the room, is it a good idea just to go somewhere else? Yeah, I get into that debate with other psychologists a lot. I am a fan of people just, you know, doing what you want in the bed before bedtime and then just going and sleeping somewhere else into two separate beds. It lessens resentment a lot. If you sleep better, you're going to feel better about each other the next day. It's interesting that because it sort of hints at failure, doesn't it?

That's once everything has been tried. So if someone, the other thing I want to add to is that if someone is snoring, let's say you have a husband who's snoring next to you, and he's not doing anything about it, that's an issue, right? There's a couple's issue going on there if he's not going to go and get it evaluated. But if he's gotten evaluated, is trying treatments, but nothing is working and is still snoring and is really putting in a good effort, then maybe you do need to sleep in a separate room. But you got to make sure that things are being tried. And as you get older, you do wake up earlier. And sometimes if you're living particularly with teenagers, they just can sleep and sleep and sleep.

I end up resenting that somewhat. Oh, yes, for sure. It just can sleep and sleep and sleep. I end up resenting that somewhat. Oh, yes, for sure. There's just a natural change in the circadian rhythm that happens. Our body clocks shift earlier when we're, well, they're earlier when we're children. They shift later as teenagers and they start to shift earlier again as we get older. And there's nothing wrong with that. Don't fight it.

Don't fight it. But equally, you could say, if you're around my age and you do find yourself alert at 7am on a Sunday, do something with the time. Yeah, that's the way I look at it. Do something with the time. Try not to lay in bed, too, for a few hours in the morning and try to force yourself to sleep until nine, even if you can't, because then you're going to end up developing insomnia because you're laying in bed awake, tossing and turning, and that worsens your sleep in the long run. I want people to get out of bed at the time that they normally wake up in the morning and just make use of the time. Get a good schedule going. Don't try to force a random schedule on it just because you think it should be the time you should wake up. And preparing your sleeping environment, it's a very grand way

for saying your bedroom. Yeah. What would you recommend? I always say make it like a pretty cave, essentially. A pretty it like a pretty cave essentially a pretty cave pretty cave so yeah i'm picturing you there with a little comfort blanket i quiet dark and cool i mean that's really it so quiet whatever you can do if it's really hard to make your room quiet then get a white noise machine pink noise is all the rage now so what's pink pink noise is just another level of sound it tends to have a little bit of a lower spectrum and there are some studies showing that helps deepen your memory too while you're sleeping so you can find that online you can find

fans that have pink noise it's similar to white noise that kind of fan noise on the scale of white noise at one end where is pink pink it's a little lower but it's the studies are showing that it's a little bit better for helping to deepen sleep but i use a white noise machine um when i travel you do when i travel when i go to any hotel i always ask if they have a white noise machine when i'm booking and if they don't then i have an app on my phone then i put a white noise machine under my under my bed or under my pillow i try to practice practice what I preach. And then, so quiet. Fan will help. Earplugs, foam earplugs aren't great. They tend to pop out. Silicone ones work a little bit better. Wax.

Wax, yep. The silicone are kind of like the wax. Those work better for swimmers. Dark, so light blocking, not light filtering. Light blocking shades are what you really want. And then cool. So keep it as cool as you can in your bedroom. The cooler, the better. I mean, you don't want to be freezing, but cool. And if your feet get cold, put on some socks, but your body temperature drops throughout the night. And that's why you don't want to work out right before bed or take a really hot shower before bed, because your body temperature should be dropping to help deepen your sleep as the night goes on. And for a decent night's sleep, should you really engage with a screen of any kind too close to bedtime? Within an hour,

turn off all screens and go to old school. Does that conclude watching the telly news? Anything with a screen, unfortunately. The screens, your brain reads it like it's the sun, essentially, and makes the hormones in your brain that make you sleepy, it makes them go away. So if you're looking at a screen, now you're looking at the sun, you're not going to get as sleepy. And I'd rather you just go old school, read a book, listen to the radio if you want to try and just do something quiet, calm and relaxing in dim light. And then when you're sleepy, get in bed. This network has a program at a quarter to 11 at night called a book at bedtime. Do you think that's appropriate, Shelby?

I love it. I love it. If you can listen to it, and it's relaxing to you, go ahead. I'm all for it. That's Dr. Shelby Harris talking about how you can overcome insomnia. I know it is a real problem. So if you've got any thoughts on, well, perhaps tips that you could pass on that might help others, do let us know. Now, if you drink alcohol alcohol we did talk about alcohol during the course of that interview that can we know really disrupt sleep. If you are a drinker when was the last time you just had a totally drink-free day? Drink Aware is an alcohol education charity and it's launched a drink-free days campaign aimed it says at encouraging midlife drinkers to moderate their consumption by having at least three drink-free days every week. The chief executive of Drink Aware is Elaine Hindle. Elaine, good morning to you. Good morning. Just

what kind of a drinker are you, honestly? I'm a moderate drinker. You know, I've been doing this job for a while. I drink much less now than I did five years ago. And that's partly because when you see the information day in, day out, like I do in in my job about how regularly drinking more than is recommended can impact your health then you tend to make more informed choices over time. So now I drink very moderately. I probably have three or four glasses of wine a week and this campaign isn't about saying to people you've got to stop drinking. It's saying actually moderate your intake. Your health will benefit in the long, but you don't have to stop completely. There's some people, of course, might want to do that too.

Well, what are the benefits for women of drink-free days as opposed to cutting back completely? Well, it's a way of cutting back completely. So we know that when people, most people who are heaviest drinkers who are drinking much more than is recommended, will drink almost on a daily basis. So what this is about is saying, actually, we know that if you just take a drink-free day a few times a week, you are unlikely to make up the alcohol on the days when you do drink. That's what the evidence is suggesting. So people are saying, you know, that's something that I can do. Cutting back is quite hard.

If you're going out to the pub with friends or you're having people over for a barbecue or whatever once you've had a couple of drinks then it's very difficult to say i'm going to stop here and won't have another one actually saying no today's my drink free day so i'm going to try a non-alcoholic wine or a beer i'm going to have a soft drink i'm going to today abstain then that is a much easier more achievable thing to do for most women than actually sort of gradually cutting back. I was out actually in Liverpool on Saturday for lunch in a pub and it is astonishing how the menu included, the drinks menu had a real variety of alcohol-free drinks on offer, obviously essential for drivers, but that wouldn't have happened five years ago. So

things are changing. Things are changing. That's a brilliant innovation. We're seeing more and more alcove-free cocktails and really interesting innovations that people can try. What you might not have seen on that menu was a 125 mug glass. And we know from our research, they're the small ones

that I think we probably remember that you used to get in a pub. They're still there. They're not quite as visible as we'd like them to be. And yet we know a third of women say, the way for me to cut down is also portion control. So we're saying to people, you know, don't be shy. If you want a small glass of wine, ask for one.

But traditionally, you used to be offered the small one. In fact, you're absolutely right. That was the glass you were given your glass of wine in. It was. Now, I mean, it's obviously much more profitable to flog the bigger glasses of wine. But you were telling me the 250ml is the bog standard now. How much alcohol is that?

That is a third of a bottle. It's actually just a few millilitres short of a half pint, which always amazes me. You wouldn't pour wine into a half pint glass and say, this is me. And I'll have it all. No, you wouldn't. Really important to know, though, why does it matter to women and what's the impact on health? Because this campaign is all about really the health harms.

I think three things that we tend to overlook. One is the relationship between alcohol and cardiovascular health, high blood pressure, often undiagnosed in women. The second is the relationship between alcohol and cardiovascular health, high blood pressure, often undiagnosed in women. The second is the relationship between alcohol and cancer. And we know that the more you drink, the higher the risk, particularly for some cancers like breast cancer, for example. And the third, of course, is weight. It's calorific. You can really save a lot of calories by having more drink-free days. And if you're trying to cut your weight down, as so many of us are, I am, then that can really help. But who's come up with the...

Did you say you're advising three drink-free days a week? Well, what the chief medical officers advise is several drink-free days a week. Why is that a good thing? What does that mean? Two reasons. Psychologically, I think it assures people that actually, because alcohol has become so much part of our everyday culture, I don't assures people that actually, because alcohol has become

so much part of our everyday culture. I don't know about you, but you know, I was offered a glass of wine the other day at the hairdressers, for example. And that's become more and more commonplace. And women will say to us, you know, well, I'm not sure I could go out without having a drink. And so psychologically, it's being able to say, yes, I can. I can actually have a great time as well. And of course, physically, your health will benefit because you're drinking less overall over the course of a week. I've got to say, it's never easier not to drink than at a BBC drinks party where the wine is so absolutely appalling that there's absolutely no way on earth you'd ever want to have one of them. That's how I've successfully cut back. Not that I've been invited to a BBC drinks party for as long as anyone can remember.

Elaine, thank you very much. And by the way, just a quick one. Drink-free days, doesn't matter which day, the consecutive? Or can you pick any three days of the week? You can pick any time you like and anything that suits you. And what's really important is that you fill that time with you know perhaps another activity whether it's getting together with friends going for a coffee going for a swim and actually thinking about how you can use that time when you might have been sitting at home

like i might have been with a drink at home all right go for a walk listen to a podcast um you'll be fine or you'll be better anyway elaine thank you very much you're welcome that's elaine hindle from drink aware now back in august listener week you might well recall the voice of when you're about to hear her again 19 year old gwyneth she was on the program with her sister betty and their mom sarah talking about the constant pain of street harassment now here is a quick bit of gwyneth there was a point last summer where I was out with two of my friends and there was this crazy guy. He grabbed my friend's thigh and then we like shouted at him and he burst out laughing. And then the next day, I can't remember what it

was that was shouted at us, but it was quite gross. And then when I went home, I put on like a long t-shirt and like trousers. And I was like, I'm dressing like this for the rest of the summer because I can't like it's just it's too much. Gwyneth, and we're still getting a reaction to that. People are still talking about what Gwyneth said and the way she expressed it so brilliantly. Street harassment in France, verbal street harassment is illegal. And a law was passed in 2018 allowing for on-the-spot fines of up to £650. So this morning, we're going to talk to Maya and Gemma Tutton. They are sisters. They are the founders of Our Streets Now.

And I don't know which one of you actually is the best person to talk to about the start of Our Streets Now. So Gemma, is it you? Yeah, so I think for both of us we well we've experienced street harassment for me since I was 11 and for Maya we since she was 12 um so we've always known that it was a problem but hearing about the laws in France really um we we knew that we could we could do something about this and that it was wrong and that it that the law did work. It does work.

It does work. Let's talk about how it works, because for an on the spot fine to be administered, there has to be a police officer around to do it. So, Maya, how can you guarantee that you can't possibly? Yeah, I mean, of course, you can't guarantee that a police officer is always going to be there. But I think that is an issue with all on the spot fines we're never going to get all the harassers but given that 90% of British women have been harassed before reaching adulthood we're talking here about figures and numbers that could never all be caught I mean if we were all constantly catching harassers for harassing us it would completely overpower our court system so we need to figure out a way to address this problem that is going to work efficiently and quickly and not put the

labour on on women and girls and the victims of this harassment which I think is is a really key point about the on the spot fines is that what we're doing is that we're not putting the emphasis once again on women and girls changing their behaviour what we're saying is that we're not putting the emphasis once again on women and girls changing their behaviour. What we're saying is that the law needs to change, that politicians need to speak out and that we need kind of as a society to be putting in these measures and these preventative and then fining actions against street harassment. We should say of course that in no way is harassing anybody on the streets of Britain legal. It simply isn't true. Sexual harassment is a form of unlawful discrimination under our Equality Act of 2010. But you both believe that more needs to be done here, that Britain needs a specific law about across Europe of countries and actually across the world of countries standing up and saying this is a specific issue. And this is a form of sexist street harassment that is based on our gender.

You know, I mean, when I get harassed in the street, the reason that I'm being harassed is because it's a power play. And I think you can see that and prove that in looking at the age at which people are being harassed so we've had hundreds and hundreds of girls under 18 reach out to us with stories of them walking to and from school and being harassed there is no way shape or form that that would ever lead to someone dating or it being a normal relationship it's clearly a power play and then we've got to ask ourselves why people are doing that. And I think it's to do with a society that doesn't value women, a society that has these kind of underpinning structures of violence against us. And I think that given that the government this year recognised that street harassment is a form of

gender based violence, it now needs to act and put in specific legislation like in France that is protecting us. Gemma you are only 14 now and you say that the harassment started for you when you were just 11 so that presumably was the point at which you started secondary school. Yeah well so I think it was actually in the summer of year six so I would have been still in primary school but it it's the first time that I remember so it must in primary school um but it it's it's the first time that I remember so it must have happened before that but it was the first striking moment that that has stayed into my mind um to this day and you know I don't really remember many things about being 11 and that has stayed in my mind because it was terrifying. What did it make you feel?

Um it made me feel intimidated, scared and I didn't understand why it was happening to me um you know it was it was summer as i was saying so i was wearing shorts and i felt bad for wearing you know my favorite i just bought a new pair of shorts and i felt so ashamed about that i think that is it's terrible that young women you know as young as 11 are feeling bad for wearing what they want to because they are being sexualized by men. And I was very clearly underage then. So as what Maya was saying before, it's not about dating. I was very clearly underage. Maya, to what degree should we focus, if at all, on what the woman or young girl is wearing? I think a really key point here to make is that whatever you're wearing, you can get

harassed. And like we were discussing earlier, you were saying about your daughter, you know, that kind of worry and that horrible realisation when you have women in your life. You know, I've had this with my little sister of, do I let my little sister wear what she wants? Because it's not fair to say to an 11 year old, you don't get to wear your favourite pair of shorts. It's not fair that we live in a society where you don't get to make decisions about your own body and your own clothing. And I think that a lot of this has got to do with,

yeah, those same structures about shaming women for their decisions and shaming women. And it's almost as if, you know, as a woman, you're in public space and you don't get to make a decision about navigating that. You don't get to wear what you want. You don't get to go where you want. And you in your in your life and in your kind of day to day behaviours have got to think about how other people are sexualising and objectifying you. And yeah, I really, really want to emphasise that with Gemma, she was being sexualised before she started her period.

And we've had girls as young as eight saying that they're being harassed. I mean, that is just ridiculous. It does. I mean, it's fantastic to hear you speak so passionately. And thank God you are doing it, by the way. But it does sound to me as though you are the generation that isn't going to put up with this. It's just not going to happen. But how do you keep up the momentum with this one Gemma

because you are you're still you're so young um and there clearly are attitudes that need to be changed across the board here well so I feel like that attitude changing has started with our Instagram so our Instagram is is is for getting to getting to girls um, like me, felt ashamed of the harassment that they faced. So it's, yeah. But what about the fact that we are sitting here now, we're all in agreement, I'm not going to disagree with anything you're saying, why would I? In a way, we shouldn't be having this conversation, because we're much more likely to be or have been victims of this,

or be victims of this, than to be perpetrators. We need the conversation to be happening somewhere else. I totally agree. And I think that that's what we've been doing. You know, the last four months we have been amassing signatures on our petitions. So that's on change.org called Make Street Harassment Illegal. And we've got 110,000 people who have said this is wrong. And we've spoken to hundreds of girls and i think at this point this is why today we've decided to reach out to uh about 40 mps and say this needs

to change this is these are the facts and these are the young women um who are who are saying that this isn't an issue in their lives and now i think it needs to this conversation needs to spread from our campaign into kind of men's circles into into yeah spaces where i think we just need to drive home the message that this is having a really really big impact and i think mps have got to act so please email your mp and tell them about your street harassment in their constituency tell them about our campaign and ask them to act because this conversation can't just be happening you know behind closed doors in our friendship groups you know young women talk about being street harassed with their female friends but we're not talking about it with um older relatives who don't understand or i mean we will still i know

we'll get emails we haven't had tweets yet about expressing this thing but you will get the woman who says oh i quite like being willful on that i'm afraid you do i know you're pulling the face but you do get those attitudes out there. Lisa on Twitter says, I don't think you've mentioned Nottingham's policy. Street harassment is reported and recorded as hate crime. We have actually discussed that on Woman's Hour before, and forgive me, I should have mentioned that,

because well done to Nottingham for doing that. And the name of your campaign is Our Streets Now, and congratulations to you both for doing it. Thank you very much. I appreciate your time. Maya and Gemma Tutton, and they are just phenomenal, and you wish them all the very best with their campaigning work.

Catherine emailed to say, I'm 58, and actually, you're right, clothes have got nothing to do with this. Yesterday, I was walking in my home country town in Northern Ireland, past cars stopped at traffic lights. I was in jeans, trainers, and a wind cheater. Two younger men in

two different cars rolled down the windows and shouted out comments to me. Fortunately, I'm getting a bit deaf, so I didn't catch what they said, but their expressions and the laughter to the other guys in the car with them made me realise that their comments were probably not particularly nice. And from Sinead, enjoying your discussion on harassment, it is true that girls are being sexualised and harassed younger and younger these days. Whilst I agree we as women should be able to wear what we like without fear or experiencing any of the above,

I do increasingly see young girls out and about in shorts so short that you can see their bottoms and tops so low cut that their breasts are only just about covered. I don't think this helps to discourage men's comments. Well, we're locked in this argument, aren't we, about whether we need to change or whether they need to change. And I think the answer is the latter, frankly. But anyway, from another listener, sexual harassment in secondary schools is also really

high my friend's daughter who has sizable breasts was routinely harassed by boys all the time she was even grabbed more than once and on the street in her school uniform adult men would comment or stare pathetic i mean what else can you say about that it's so dispiriting hearing about all these experiences lots of you wanted to talk about period sex and about periods. Sorry, my voice went up there on the word. It went sort of peculiar but anyway, that's probably the impact of the flat

white. Gillian, this is not an uncommon view from Gillian on Twitter, so I'm happy to read it out. Bloody hell woman's hour. Thanks for the warning. I don't want to hear about period sex, says Julian, who presumably went on to enjoy Popmaster instead. From Ruth, I've always found that sex during my period

actually relieves period pain. I've always used a diaphragm, and it's allowed me to continue to have sex with no mess or embarrassment, and I don't think my partner even notices. Maybe I'm fortunate, but I don't think my partner even notices. Maybe I'm fortunate but I don't have very heavy periods but I certainly wouldn't want to curtail any activity I enjoy, particularly sex, just because I'm having a period. An anonymous email here, period sex in my experience,

orgasm really helpful against period pain but intercourse wasn't so good and period blood affects quality of sex because, and this is an interesting point, it makes men think you're lubricated and turned on long before you actually are. Another listener says I was born in the mid-70s and I've never had any issues with period sex. When I've had my period and been close to sex I've simply mentioned to my partner that I've got my period and some have said it doesn't bother them and others have said okay well we'll wait Helen wasn't impressed with all that is challenging for women in the world today. Is this really the best you have to offer? From Beth, my husband would initiate period sex with me. I was never keen, but went along with his wishes and actually enjoyed it.

Yes, it was a bit messy afterwards, but I was always on top. So the mess was managed and my blood never ended up. And this is important. My blood never ended up on our gorgeous white 1000 thread count bed linen. Wow. I'm at an age where that's almost pornographic to me, that sort of mention of the quality of your linen. Fantastic. And Louisa says, does this give a whole new definition to period drama? Just saying. You're very good. Giles, I'm glad you're talking about period sex. As a man, I don't fetishize it, but I do enjoy it. My partners over the years have needed quite a bit of convincing. My now wife and I used to have

period sex quite frequently in the early days of our relationship, but it is a rarity now. She doesn't want to make a mess on towels. I've never understood why people are so squeamish about it, and I'm glad it's being discussed. I hope it helps men and women get over the stigma. Giles, in defence of your wife, I wonder whether it's just that she knows she's going to get saddled with washing the towels, which is what makes her less keen on messing them up in the first place. Just saying. Janet says, I remember a Ben Elton sketch on television about how things would be different if men had periods. They would shout about how painful they are and boast about the number of beers they needed to stuff down their

pants when caught short in the pub. And from Christmas Fox, I love having my period and everything about it, as do all the women in my family. Unfortunately, negative voices are the ones we hear most. I think it's relatively rare to enjoy everything about your period, isn't it? But I take your point. There are all shades of opinion out there. Insomnia. This is from Chris. I have fibromyalgia and that stops you sleeping. As soon as you drop into deep sleep, you're jerked awake and only have dream sleep. Sometimes I had as little as two minutes deep sleep in an eight hour period. Gosh, that sounds tough. Claire says insomnia isn't only for women with children.

I am listening now after yet another bad night. No children, but a lot of my mind. Medication is all that's been offered to me on the NHS. CBT offered for another issue consisted of being offered some photocopied pages from an occupational therapist's rather old textbook having waited months for help. There seems to be no solution. And Lydia says I tried acupuncture for perimenopausal insomnia and it stopped it immediately. I only needed two sessions to address the problem. By the time I went, I was barely sleeping at night and becoming depressed. I can't recommend it highly enough. Alison, waking in the

early hours, tossing and turning with anxious thoughts has really been improved for me by using a weighted blanket. It feels lovely and heavy and secure in bed and sends me straight back off to sleep. It is bliss. Thank you, Alison. I do remember a couple of years ago on the programme, we did an item about sleep and the expert there said there was far too much obsession about eight hours sleep. And if you could just forget the obsession with eight hours and just be grateful for six good hours sleep, you'd find you were sleeping a lot better. Just my tip I'm throwing into the mix. Thanks to everybody who contacted us today. Really appreciate it because we do talk about, as you know, the stuff of life on this programme. And we are very grateful to you for

getting involved. Tomorrow, my guests include the comedian Jen Brister, who's going to be talking about what it's like to be a proud mother to twin boys. She is actually gay, and it was her partner, Chloe, who gave birth. So we'll hear all about that on the programme and the podcast tomorrow. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories

I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.