Woman's Hour - Philippa Perry, Antisemitism, Undiagnosed children, Simone Pennant

Episode Date: April 30, 2026

Shrink Solves Murder is the first novel by the artist and psychotherapist Philippa Perry. She talks to Anita Rani about her new book and protagonist Patricia Philipps, who like Philippa is also a psychotherapist. However the similarity ends when Patricia turns sleuth after one of her patients turns up dead. Two Jewish men were stabbed in Golders Green in north London yesterday, in an incident police are treating as a terrorist incident. The attack took place in an area with a large Jewish population and comes amid a wider rise in antisemitic incidents across the UK. The government’s independent adviser on terrorism legislation, Jonathan Hall KC, has said attacks targeting Jewish people now represent "the biggest national security emergency" in almost a decade. To talk more about the impact on families, children and communities we are joined by Debbie Fox, the chief executive of the Jewish Leadership Council, which represents the largest Jewish organisations in the UK.The NHS says there are around 6,000 children born each year in the UK with genetic conditions so rare they remain undiagnosed and unnamed. This group of children, known as SWAN children, Syndromes Without A Name, have complex medical needs. Ten years ago Roald Dahl’s Marvellous Children’s Charity funded the world’s first nurse specialising in this area at Great Ormond Street. They have now secured a second post. We hear from SWAN nurses Anna Jewitt and Lucy Michaels along with Tali Drumgoon, the mother of Roscoe who is undiagnosed and who's under the care of the SWAN nurses at Great Ormond Street Hospital. Simone Pennant, the founder and CEO of The TV Collective, has just been presented with the 2026 BAFTA Television Craft Special Award at this year’s ceremony. It was in recognition for her outstanding contribution, championing diversity within the screen industries. She joins us to discuss her work and what it means to receive the award.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Andrea Kidd

Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning, welcome to the programme. The mother of a 34-year-old Jewish man who was stabbed in Golders Green yesterday tells the BBC she's pretty horrified that these things could happen on the streets of London. We'll discuss the impact of these latest attacks on Jewish families and communities. Simone Pennant has won a BAFTA, the founder and CEO of the TV Collective for championing diversity in film and TV and digital industries.

Give thanks and remember, if you can believe it, you can conceive it. Believe the hype. Manifestation is real. Look at me. Daddy! We'll be celebrating her and finding out how she did it on the program. Now, if you're looking for a page-turning, cozy crime thriller to sink into, Philippa Perry's debut novel, Shrink Solves Murder,

will most probably satisfy your urge. She'll be here to tell us all about it. And we speak to the two Swan nurses from Great Ormond Street Children's Hospital. Swan stands for syndromes without a name. According to the NHS, there are 6,000 children born each year in the UK with genetic conditions so rare they remain undiagnosed and unnamed. So we'll be hearing also from a mother living through this experience. And of course, we would like to hear your thoughts and opinions on anything you hear on the programme. As usual, get in touch with us via text.

It's 84844. You can email us by going to our website. And if you fancy sending me a WhatsApp or a voice note, it's 0300-100-444. That text number once again, 84844. But first, dominating the headlines today. Two Jewish men were stabbed in Golders Green in North London yesterday. In an incident, police are treating as a terrorist incident.

The mother of one of the men told the BBC, she was pretty horrified that these things could happen on the streets of London. The attack took place in an area, with a large Jewish population and comes amid a wider rise in anti-Semitic incidents across the UK. The government's independent advisor on terrorism legislation, Jonathan Hall, Casey, has said attacks targeting Jewish people now represent the biggest national security emergency in almost a decade.

Last night, the Justice Minister, Sarah Sackman, who represents Finchley and Golders Green, told BBC Newsnight about her own fears following the attack. I would be lying if I said that I did not feel, some of the fear that I know that many Brits, British Jews, feel. I said to someone earlier that when I take my children to synagogue in my local area, I find myself holding and gripping their hand a little bit tighter. I know I'm not alone in that.

Well, to talk more about the impact on families, children and communities, I'm joined by Debbie Fox, the chief executive of the Jewish Leadership Council, which represents the largest Jewish organizations in the UK. Morning, Debbie. I just want to start by asking how you're feeling this morning. Thank you, Anita. Good morning to you and thank you for having me.

The feeling this morning is one of still reeling from yesterday, that sickening feeling in the pit of my stomach and those around me, friends, family and colleagues, that stayed with me throughout the course of the day, then turns as I wake up this morning to a different sense of emotion, a sense of deep frustration and anger that we are here again. And as we have heard over these past months now, many of us in the Jewish community do wake up every morning

and think to ourselves where and when, not if. And that certainly has an impact on the range of emotions that we live through day in and day out at this time. And does, and I'm sure it does, how does an incident like this change how you or your family behave on the day to day? What does it do? It forces us to rethink everything.

It forces us to rethink everything. It forces us to rethink how we live our lives. What should our daily routine look like to be able to be physically safe and psychologically safe? And so for someone who has lived in this community and in this very area, the very streets of Golders Green yesterday that were cordoned off

are streets that I have walked through for the decades of my life, the streets that my colleagues, my friends and family live live on and work around. And the changes now are being made and necessary by us all. So I think every morning the route I take to work, my personal safety is being assessed. And those around me are thinking likewise, don't take the same route looking over our shoulder as we travel on public transport as we walk down streets that are now, you know, they are the streets of home and they

feel that they are no longer the familiar safe places that we have been able to live freely up until these last few years. You've been, as you say, you live in the community and you've been to Golders Green to talk to people who live there. What have families been telling you? families have been telling me how fearful they feel. Colleagues yesterday who work in buildings around those streets reported to me that they are dealing with staff teams whose levels of anxiety have been raised to levels unprecedented and there is this deep sense of fear and intimidation. And at the same time, I would say that what this community has been so, so proud and able to do is to find the strength and the resilience to actually move on, to keep fighting, to respond.

We believe many and most of us are proud British Jews that want to be able to live our lives and practice our religion freely and safely. but we can no longer do this alone. We can no longer do it without those around us, civil society, our fellow citizens, because an attack on Jews is an attack on British values as we keep hearing. And it is an attack on the authority of the democratic state. The test now is do the streets belong to us as the public or do they belong to the those who are willing to dominate with intimidation and violence. How do you explain to children what's happening?

What kinds of questions are being asked and what kinds of conversations are happening over the kitchen table? I think, Anita, the answer to that is that there are a whole host of conversations. As a parent, I'm a parent of young adults. I'm having conversations with my children that are obviously, very different to those that friends and family are having with younger children. And we know with younger children, it is notoriously difficult to hide from the truth. Children are exposed to so much. Children who are going to Jewish schools are well-versed in understanding that they walk into a school

building, that it's cordoned off by security, that the first people they see at the beginning of the day and the end of day are security guards. And so parents with school-aged children know that both they and schools have responsibility to, on a day like today, counsel their children. There will be those who are, yet again, terrified to get on the bus to go to school.

There will those that will be far more resilient. And so parents will be having conversations very much depending on where they meet their children. but in my own circumstances, my young adult children, I hesitate to share what I think I am going to share, but I have a young adult son who utterly understands and respects the role that I have professionally in this community and also my commitment to the community, but has asked me repeatedly, please, mum, please don't put yourself out there.

in the same way as you've asked me not to get on the back of a motorbike and I've understood how frightening that is to you, please understand how frightening it is to me to know that you are on the front line. Well, what do you feel as a mother when your son says that to you? And what did you say to him in return? It's an ongoing conversation and it's one that in Britain in 2026,

I never ever envisaged I would be having with a very rational person. It is utterly depressing. It hits at the very heart of my own vulnerability and my sense of responsibility. And I think that my community experienced that every single day, the vulnerability, but the deep sense of commitment and responsibility, to want this situation to change, to be part of that change, and to live in a society where all communities can live safely and freely. Debbie Fox, thank you very much for speaking to me this morning.

Debbie Fox is the chief executive of the Jewish Leadership Council. Thank you for joining us. To keep up to date with any developments and reactions to the story, you can head to the BBC News. website. 84844 is the text number. Now, shrink solves murder is the first novel by the artist and psychotherapist, Philippa Perry. You're likely to know her from her media work or perhaps her nonfiction at Philippa's 2019 parenting guide. The book you wish your parents had read, it became a

bestseller. Well, in this new venture, which just describes itself as a warm witty and wise crime caper, her protagonist is Patricia, Philipsia. Phillips, perhaps a slight echo there of Philippa's own name. And Patricia, like Philippa, is a psychotherapist, but the similarity ends when Patricia turns sleuth after one of her patients turns up dead. Dda-da-da-da! Welcome to Woman's Hour. Congratulations. Thank you.

Proper page turner. Thanks very much, Anita. Oh, it's so good. I'm going to start with the plot. You explain it to us. Set out the premise. Well, Pat has got this client. and she knows him quite well and he dies.

Okay. And the circumstances of his death are not suspicious as far as the police are concerned. But Pat smells a rat and she's not satisfied with that. And as the police won't investigate it, she has to investigate it. And along with her on the journey is her best friend Pritchard. and she has many friends and frenemies in the community. And I like to think of it as a bit like an E.F. Benson novel, you know, like Map and Lucia with lots of characters that are in competition with each other and suspect each other. And there's a book group, there's an art group.

So they get together quite often. And Pat's quite naughty. She spies on her next door. neighbors through her bathroom window and things like that. But eventually, with the help of her daughter who knows about things like Instagram, they managed to track down the killer. No spoilers, though. I love all the characters.

There's so many people that we all know somebody that's in the book and the community that she's in. It's almost like we see, I don't know how to describe it. through her eyes, the sort of almost the superficiality of everything that's going on around her. There's a lot of people who are impressed by stuff and things. Yes, that's right. Some people are impressed by fast cars, toned bodies, that sort of thing. Other people, not so much.

Not Pat. Can you read a bit from the book? Oh, yeah, sure. This is a bit from the beginning when the police had just come around and told her that her client has died by suicide. Pat listened with increasing annoyance and frustration. Not that Henry was a friend, of course not. He was a client, whom she hadn't been working with for very long. Six, seven weeks maybe?

She'd have to look that up in her appointment diary. But he was a young man in his early 30s who'd had his whole life ahead of him. He was charming, good-looking, a nice boy. She began to feel irritated by the presence of DS Stevens in her kitchen. She took a deep breath and tried hard to remain impassive. Stevens was likely in her mid-30s, bustling with efficiency and freshly washed hair. She smelt of a cloying, heavy, floral teenage perfume.

She was made up, curled eyelashes, a bit of Kardashian contouring around the nose and across the cheeks, the sort of woman who always wanted to look her best. A small solitaire dammon glimmered on her engagement finger as she picked up her mug of tea. It was looking a bit sad on its own without a wedding band. It had been there a while. Pat was sure of it. How did you know he was a client of mine?

She interrupted the detective mid-flow. We found your business card in his wallet with today's date and 3pm written on the back, said PC footer. Anyways, is that enough to give you a flat? Have you read the audiobook? No. You should have.

No, no, no, I shouldn't because Joanna Scallon did that for me. Brilliant. She is magnificent. And she can do all the, you know, the different characters. Fair enough. Joanna Scanlon, you know, you basically drop the mic. She's amazing. I want to find out, I mean, first of all, to have a psychotherapist as a sleuth is perfect.

Because as you will know, well, you tell us, you're observing people all the time. Yeah, but I don't think Pat's particularly good at it. She does miss things as well as get things. Sometimes she's absolutely spot on and she has observed things that other people have missed. But a lot of the time, you know, she's a normal human being that makes mistakes as well. I want to find out how much of Pat is you. So she has a fondness for the dry robe. Yeah. And that pink Terry dressing gown she wears outside sometimes. So comfort clothing, is that you? Yeah, it is me. I have a dry robe. I go swimming in the sea. Yes, I am quite grumpy like Pat is. But Pat is less inhibited with her grumpiness than I am. So she's a little bit ruder than I am.

How much fun did you have writing that? Letting it all out on the page. It was just bliss being who I really ought to be a very grumpy woman that not many people want to be friends with. Yes, that was great fun. I wanted to be friends with Pat. I don't know what that says about me though. Cold water swimming.

Yeah. So you do do that. How long have we been doing that? I've been doing that not for that long for about five years. And I'm doing it less now because my blood pressure's gone down. And it's not great if you've got low blood pressure. But I do enjoy it. But I'm a bit of a summer swimmer these days.

Yeah, fair weather. Fair enough. She has a car that she nicknames the Mossmobile. Is that you? I'm afraid this is completely me. Can we discuss this? I have got a very old car. And I've got an old car because I don't. want a new one that's got all these computers in it so I won't be able to work it and I'll lose

my temper like Pat if I get a new car. So I know how my car works. I'm not going to change it. But nor am I going to wash it. And because I've never washed my car since I've had it, it's got moss growing in all the sort of cracks. And because the car's very reliable, it's got moss going under the bonnet because I never lift the bonnet up because I don't have to. And now there are other plants growing in the moss. So we have called our own car, the Mossmobile. I thought it fitted Pat, so I gave it to her as well. I think just mining yourself as a character for this book is just perfect. Like, of course it should be me.

And I think her car is a good contrast to some of the suspects cars who have sort of fancy sports cars. Or there's a DB9 in there. That's an Aston Martin. And it makes a good contrast, you know. Well, yeah, there's a lot of change happening around her in this little area that she's moved in. Yes, there's some new very. Rishi's coming into the village and they're no better than they ought to be as far as Pat's concerned. We've got to mention Pritchard, you mentioned him, he's her best mate and a crime-solving sidekick.

He's pedantic about the roads he travels on. He's a brilliant cook. He loves inventing alcohol. Yeah. Based on anyone you know? Well, I have got a friend who loves to go into this character of just talking about what roads he's been on. I came up the A-29 and then I took a... left onto the B3254.

And he does this character absolutely brilliantly. And I just wanted to put a bit of that in the book. But I also wanted to make him quite sympathetic. Yes, he is based on my neighbour in the country. But if I said it on the radio who it was, perhaps I'd get sued by him. Do you reckon? Anyway, Pritchard Knowles is the name of my character. And if anybody can find any sort of retired vicar that that might meet, I don't know.

Yeah, figure it out. That's a little, you've left a little nugget there for people. I love this detail that she was married, she was in a relationship for a very long time, she has a grown-up daughter, and she gets divorced, moved to the countryside. And I'm not giving any spoilers away by revealing that in the interim she has a lesbian relationship.

That's right, she does, yes. She progresses from being married woman to lesbian to, oh, actually, I just want to live on my own. I think that's part of her in top. tolerance of other people. She just gets quite grumpy as she gets older. I don't think she's on HRT because she hasn't got enough estrogen to sort of put her in a good mood at any time. That's why she's wild swimming, apparently. I don't want to make any claims, but somebody told me that it's very good. Yeah, it sort of centres you because you can only sort of concentrate

on not dying of cold. Pat's daughter, Sophia, becomes pregnant. That's right. And the first person she tells is her mum, not her partner. Who you first tell about a significant life event, can itself become a life event? So how often do you see this crop up in therapy? Right. About who you tell. Well, quite often the therapist is the first person people tell things to because they like to have a little practice of what it's, you know, how are they going to be received? are they a bad or a good person for what they've done or what's happened to them or, you know, how does you practice on the therapist to see how other people might react to you? You know, are you acceptable?

Actually, in the book, it's not the mother isn't the first person, Sophia tells. It's the dad. The dad's, uh. Pat's X. And Pat is quite hurt about that. I'm not surprised. You're in your late 60s. I am. I'm 68.

Well done. Very good. Why did you want to write a detective story now? Well, I better get a move on, hadn't I? Because, you know, I'm 68. I first went to creative writing classes to try and write a novel when I was 27. And that's actually where I met my husband. Grayson Perry. That's right. He was there too.

And I've always been circulating around the novel sort of ever since. and I had some ideas I wanted to communicate. So I did those in nonfiction. And I kept asking my agent, can I write a novel now? Can I write a novel? And my agent said, no, not yet. You've got another nonfiction in you first. You're known for nonfiction.

You can't write a novel. No one will buy it. And so, I mean, she had a point because my next novel, I mean, my next nonfiction sold over a million. So she did have a point. But now she said, oh, right, you can if you want. I suppose. And so I've written this novel. And I think I love reading. And I love reading books that are set in villages and have just a few people that you learn how that society works.

I think it was Jane Austen that said you need four or five families in a village and you've got a novel. You know, it's the small interactions that are so interesting. Well, I just want to, because it is such a brilliant page turner. Like I found myself just like, oh, I want to know, want to know what happens next. And your characters are so good. And you've kind of taken as, it's exactly what it says. I did want good characters that I wanted to hang out with, and hopefully then you'd want to hang out with them as well,

either because you want to be friends with them or you want to laugh at them or hate them or whatever. So I wanted these characters that people want to spend time with. And I also kind of wanted to join the ranks of Stella Gibbons, E.F. Benson, Agatha Christie. And the more recent crime writers, too. I mean, I love Mick Heron and Richard Osmond. Richard Coles, very good writer. You know, and I was actually copy. They're all doing crime. I want to do crime.

Well, you know, it works. Crime is a great structure for putting what you want to say onto that structure. So it gives you the structure, the, you know, the body, the mystery, the murder, the solving it. And with that structure, you can hang whatever you want to say. Yeah, but it is one of those where you're turning the pages, but it's such a skill to be able to get it right. And it's funny as well. I wanted to keep myself amused, so I did put in as many jokes as I could. What's your writing process? How did you do it? Oh, this is a bit of a confession. I lie in bed in the morning. I get hold on my phone and I dictate to notes.

And I do it before I get up. So I like to think of myself as a sort of Barbara Cartland, you know, supine. Not dictating to a secretary, unfortunately, but dictating onto my phone. And I did manage to do about the first quarter like that. After that I had to sit up and work at a laptop. You know, the whole thing gets too big to do it lying in bed. But that's how I start off. Oh, I like that. That kind of gives other people permission.

Yeah, lying bed and do your best creative work. Yeah. Talking of crazy, you're in a very creative household. You mentioned your husband, Grace and Perry. Did he read it? He has read it and he does like it, yeah. Did you read it before? Did he read it during the process?

Did you read this to him? No, no, no. He read it when it was very nearly finished and before my very good editor took 20,000 words from it. So 20,000 words were chopped. But all to make it more pacey and it's much better as a result. Every writer needs a good editor. I totally.

As someone who has worked with a brilliant editor, I completely agree. And also push you, push you further to get into some crannies. The book that you mentioned, the book which you wish your parents had read, that gets a name check. Yeah, that's very naughty of me. Go on. Well, you can do what you want. It's your book.

Pat, the psychotherapist, Slooth, recommends this book to her daughter when her daughter's pregnant. Because her daughter is worried she's going to repeat all Pat's mistakes. And Pat did make mistakes as a parent. And so it's a little private joke with me. Say, hey, read this book my colleague recommended. My colleague wrote. Were you expecting that book to be such a huge success? How many millions have he sold?

Nearly four. Oh God, that is incredible. That's all right so far. Parents want, they're reaching out for help. What it's about is about how to have the best possible relationship with your children, which is more important than anything else. You know, children are not projects to, you know, shape. They're not clay to mould.

They're people to have relationships with. And that's what the book you wish your parents had read is about. Patricia, as you said, she's an imperfect psychotherapists, and there's a reminder that therapists are always learning. So how do you go about this yourself? Well, I think the way you can always learn is from your patients because they are your greatest teachers. And the way adults can learn is from our children in the same way

because they see things we haven't seen and they can show us a new way of looking at the world. And I think if you want to get on with your kids all the way through your life, look at the world how they see the world, as well as how you see the world, you know, keep that bifocal perspective and you're all getting on fine. Bifocal perspective and writing it down. We've had an email, Philip is saying, on the Mossmobile, Philippa mentioned, we have a similar car.

It has a family of shrews living in the heating system. They pop up through the vents from time to time. What? Well, I hope they're safe. I know. It doesn't sound very good for the shrews. I think maybe you should go out on your bicycle until the shrews have mated and had their babies and gone somewhere else. That sounds very dangerous for the shrews.

I know really, I mean, Pat is such a great character. I like the fact that she's a woman who has made a choice to live the life that she wants on her own terms. She has done that. It takes a minute to get there. Yeah. I mean, that's what women in their late 60s. should be doing, living on their own terms, I think. And writing, and you must continue to write murder mysteries.

Thanks very much, Anita. I will endeavour to do so. When's it coming out? It's coming out on the 7th of May. Brilliant. Philippa Perry, thank you so much. Thank you for having me, Anita. It's been really fun.

It has been fun. And shrink solves murder. You're going to love it. It's out on the 7th of May, as Philipa just told us. Thank you so much. Best of luck with it. Can't wait to see the TV series. Oh, thank you.

Now, the NHS says there are around 6,000 children born each year in the UK with genetic conditions. So rare, they remain undiagnosed and unnamed. The group of children known as Swan Children, syndromes without a name, have complex medical needs. Ten years ago, Great Ormond Street appointed the world's first nurse specialising in this area, and they've now secured a second post. While joining me today in the studio, our two. Swan nurses, Han Dewitts and Lucy Michaels, along with Tali Drumgoon, the mother of Roscoe, who is undiagnosed and who's under the care of the Swan nurses at Great Ormond Street

Hospital. Anna, Lucy and Talley, welcome. I'm going to start with you, Anna. Our listeners, they won't be familiar with Swan. I have mentioned what it stands for, syndromes without a name, so tell us more. Yeah, so it's children and young people that are diagnosed, undiagnosed, with a sort of rare genetic condition, but we don't have a name for it yet. So they're often multiple medical problems under lots of teams, and we're trying to help sort of coordinate their care. So it's a minefield. And you were the world's first specialist, one nurse.

Yes. And you started 10 years ago. Yeah, so I set the roll up at Great Ormond Street Hospital. So what does it entail? So what it entails is helping coordinate care for children and young people and their families. It's helping sort of emotional support. It's advocating for the families, helping empower them to sort of be able to sort of navigate the system as well because it's so complex as well as a lot of emotional support as well. Well, Tali, I'm going to bring you in here because you have a three-year-old Roscoe who's a patient at Great Ormond Street.

Tell us about Roscoe. So when Roscoe was born, he was born with multiple complex disabilities from breathing complications to heart conditions and feeding complications. and feeding complications, which unfortunately made his journey very challenging. And thankfully we got to meet Anna, who we didn't actually know about the time. It was thanks to a nurse who knew about her position and recommended that we speak to her.

And actually when she came in the room, immediately it was like, oh my gosh, you know the person that we've needed this whole time. And she's basically helped navigate all of the team, for Rosco. She's helped manage his care as well. She's helped us personally in the sense of filling out forms and advocating for us and finding the right team. So, yeah, Roscoe's got quite a lot going on and it's quite challenging to handle. Yeah. What's it like not knowing what's affecting your son? It's exhausting. There was many, many nights where I'd be sitting up online

trying to figure things out myself, to be honest. Speaking to the doctors and hearing, tests came back normal, we don't have an answer. You would think, to begin with, that's great, yes, there's not a problem there, but actually once you hear it so many times, you become quite tired because all you want to have is an answer in the end because having an answer would mean being able to advocate for him appropriately, doctors understanding his needs

you can understand what the future looks like so that can be quite challenging and that ping pong effects I suppose of being passed through the system exactly what's told does that take so because Roscoe's got so many undiagnosed problems

a lot of the time we'll see a team and then they'll go actually I don't think this is the team that you need to be seeing let's refer him to another team and we go back and forth, back and forth, and it just gets to a point where you're kind of like, okay, where do we go from here? Does anyone actually know what to do?

And hospitals are not relaxing places for parents or children. Very exhausting. Yeah. So what kind of support has Anna provided? Where does Anna fit into that? So we can imagine the horrendously stressful experience that you've had. And then Anna, you turn up. Yeah.

And I will, initially, it's about listening to the family. It's listening and hearing everything they've been through and understanding. And having that sort of background of working with lots of children and young people with an undiagnosed condition just to help you be able to relate with the family as well and they can tell you. Yeah. And Rumsco is under, between 14 to 20 specialists at the moment. Yeah, that's at Great Ormond Street alone. Yeah.

Just at Great Ormond Street. And so Anna, do you manage help coordinate appointments for Tyler? What's practical day to day? So sometimes we would think about if they're coming up one week and there's like four appointments, we would sort of coordinate that by asking if we can reduce it down maybe to twice a week, instead of four times a week. So they're not coming up, yeah, so many times.

If he gets more time in nursery and not having to, yeah, just be here all the time because that makes a huge, those little things make a difference. And that just having one person who becomes your person. Yes. And also the relationship, you tell me, between Roscoe and Anna. What's that like? they have a bond

she walks in the room or walks into the ward and Roscoe sees her and it doesn't matter what he's just gone through what trauma and he just lights up and he runs over to her

and he's so excited to see her and he's just filled of so much joy she always has this nice little bag that has like some toys in it and he knows what the bag is and even just during appointments like just having someone

that can sit listen then chip him with some questions if needed or just be with him so I can, myself and my partner, can listen to what the doctor's actually telling us and actually be able to have a conversation makes a big difference because he's a boy of a lot of energy and it can be really hard to manage that along with having a professional conversation with a doctor

and trying to understand what's going on and what's next. So really she makes a big difference to all aspects of Roscoe's hospital life. So Roscoe's hospital life, so Anna is there. helping with Rosco whilst you're listening to the many specialists that you have to talk to. But then on top of that, you mentioned all the forms that you have to fill out as well. Yeah. When you have a child with any disability, there's going to be a lot of forms you're going to need to be filling out, unfortunately, just so you can get the right care and needs put in place for them. But with that, when you have a child that's undiagnosed, there seems to be a bit of a common factor where children with, but, you know, no overall diagnosis, no syndrome,

they have a lot more to explain. So I find myself explaining Roscoe's long problem list, and I have to explain each individual problem and what it means and what it means for him. And then on top of that, I've got to put, obviously, all of his teams. But with that, I'm then only given, for example, on his DLA, I'm going to give him a year and a half for I have to do it again. So within a year, I'm refilling out the same form.

It's the disability. Living allowance, yeah. I'm going to bring you in Lucy because you are the second Swan Nurse to join after 10 years at Great Ormond Street So first of all congratulations Thank you

On the new job How are you finding it? It's been overwhelming but amazing I just feel so lucky to be able to have stepped into this specialty I was expecting the complex care and it's what I've seen throughout my nursing career but recognising the lack of awareness

has just been astonishing and I mean we're consistently having to explain what Swan means so I can't imagine what it's like for parents and families to not only have to explain that to healthcare professionals but to teachers

carers, social workers, family, friends it's been a while when but it's amazing. Well talk us through a day in the life of you a nurse working as a Swan nurse with undiagnosed children at Great Ormond Street.

Yeah so we Me and Anna usually come in. We have a look at our report on the system, and we see who's maybe been admitted overnight. Sometimes we can have patients that are admitted in an emergency or come in poorly overnight. And then we have our outpatients coming to visit as well. And then we tend to spend the day going to visit those patients,

whether that's on the ward or in clinics. And that's when we just sit with the family. We listen to them. We sit in the waiting room with them. often we'll go into appointments with them will be that second year that's when we really try to help advocate for these patients and families

it can be a really intimidating place being in a room full of doctors so I think when they've got a familiar face like Anna and I it can make a difference so yeah why aren't doctors able to diagnose these children that's a really

it's a tricky question it's I mean with the genetic testing that they have now just over 30% of children find a diagnosis. So that's still such a large portion of children that never find a diagnosis. And yeah, I mean, it's a tricky question to answer, really. What are Roscoe's symptoms? So he struggles with breathing when he falls asleep, so he has off-shocks of CPAPNia.

He also gets really out of breath during the day because he struggles to breathe through his nose. that means he's breathing through his mouth. And he's very active. So you have to manage that. He also has blood sugar problems. So we have to make sure that he hasn't dropped his blood sugars throughout the day. What else? He has so many problems.

It's a very, very long list. One of the more recent ones is temperature regulation problems. So his temperature goes really low, as low as 34. and that could just be any point during the day, especially when he's asleep. So it's making sure that he's warm enough and he's comfortable. He's just got a long, long list. We've heard about the emotional support that Anna offers you.

What about the administrative help? Do you get any? Yeah, so if I'm having troubles with coordinating with any of his teams, for example, maybe they haven't got back to me or I'm not sure which department I should be speaking to in regards to one of my concerns with Roscoe, I can speak to Anna and she might help, coordinate that, figure that out for us.

Another thing that she's been really helpful with is writing letters for, for example, disability living allowance or his education and healthcare plan. So that means that I have, so normally when you have a child that's diagnosed, you'll have someone from that specialist, write a letter for your child. He's undiagnosed. So I don't have that opportunity to ask them. With Anna, she would be the best person I can ask and she has written amazing letters. explain everything really well that I can then provide to these people and say,

look, this is a professional's opinion on what's going on. Anna, you're funded by Roll Dahl's Marvelous Children's charity and they fund you for two years and then the NHS takeover. That's right. Although you wouldn't exist otherwise if it wasn't for the charity. Yeah, correct. But your needs seem so vital. Exactly.

It's really difficult. You want these specialist's nurses and in all sorts of things. barriers but obviously Roald Dahl and myvis children's charity recognised the uniqueness of this and the fact that parents were saying if our child had diagnosis we might have a nurse specialist in this we see other families who have epilepsy cancer or things like that have a nurse specialist but why don't we just because we don't have a name and actually it's even more complex when you don't have a name to navigate the system as a hospital so how do you so yeah well well what um well you've been doing it for 10 years now working with as a nurse with children with undiagnosed. What additional provision would you like and support would you like to see families getting? What's needed? Well, more nurses, so we look really lucky. It's amazing to have Lucy now started the last few months.

I mean, what a relief. There's two of you now. You're not the lone one. There's two. I don't know how I'm going to find out of them. Did you have the two of you in the, having it in the canteen now and cups of tea together? Lots of coffee. Lots of coffee.

Yeah. No, it just means we can actually support more families. So I was just conscious without just one of me, trying to spread my time across over 300. We've got over like 320 patients on the caseload. And it's obviously you want to give them all that time and support they need because that's the whole point of why they created the role as well was because it is so complicated when you under like 14, 20 teams. It's just how do you even begin to imagine, you know,

how you start doing that and navigating it is just really difficult. Yes. But you are doing a brilliant. I want to thank you for coming in and speaking to me and good luck with the job. Come back in 10 years. Swan nurses Anna Dewitt and Lucy Michaels and also mother of Roscoe Tarley, Drumgoon. Thank you, Tarley.

Thank you. 84844 is the number to text. Now, my next guest is Simone Pennant. She's the founder and CEO of the TV collective and she's just been presented with the 2026 Bafta Television Craft Special Award at this year's glittering ceremony. It was in recognition of her outstanding contribution, championing diversity within the screen industries. Simone joins me now. Congratulations. Wow. Can you believe that?

Can you believe that? I'm still trying to get my head around it, you know. Bafda. I'm sorry, I don't want to be cheeky, but I'm actually at MBE, please. I'm MBE, please. So, yeah. So, yeah. So, yeah, MBEA. Thank you very much.

And now Bafta. Yes. It's amazing. No, it's truly amazing. I'm absolutely shocked. It wasn't something that I was expecting or even looking for, actually, to be fair. Well, we're going to, let's, you know, it's well deserved. I'm going to, let's find out.

Let's tell people why this is well deserved. Because you set up the TV collective in 2012. Why did you think it was needed? I think the conversation around the lack of diversity has been going on for a while in TV. And particularly when it comes to kind of people that feel marginalized. There is always a concern in terms of how their stories are told, how they're portrayed, whether they have agency in their stories, not being able to tell their stories on their own terms.

And also just in terms of career progression, it's always difficult. So I started, I worked in TV well before starting the TV production, TV collective. And I worked on a lot of black programs, which was great. But I found that nobody would call me for just lovely programs, or not even lovely programs, but like, come down, come dying with me or anything else that was outside of that kind of black social issues kind of stuff. It starts to get really frustrated.

And you feel really marginalised. Sometimes when you're in the spaces, the assumption is that you're there because you're on some special screen or scheme or you've got some special dispensation to be there and never been taken on your own terms. It's like I have something to offer this industry. What does that do to you when you're working in an industry and you're kind of only being picked for certain jobs? You start to really, your sense of self, right? Do you know what I mean?

That noise, that you're just not good enough, you start to feel, you start to get over insecure in spaces, right? You're wondering, are people judging me? Am I good enough? I remember working and like, I'm my mum. So you would work and at 5 o'clock, I've got to go and get my children, man. I've got to go and pick up nurseries and stuff like,

but you're worried if I leave early, does it make me look bad? So you sit there doing nothing, but your computer up, waiting for somebody else to leave so then you can say that I've left or you come in early and send an email just to let everybody know that you're in early so you're always consciously kind of working and looking behind your back and never relaxing so you're never able to just bring your creative self your best self to the table

so it's important to create space where people can say you know we belong and you can bring your best self your best creative work without the noise of can I do I belong here am I able to be here are they constantly thinking I'm good enough is it because I'm all of that noise get rid of it and just bring your purposeful self. And do you know, because anecdotally I know people who have felt this in the past, but I've ended up leaving the industry. But you decided to set up the TV collective. When did that, when and how did that come about?

When did you decide that you wanted to do something about it? I suppose I'd been frustrated. I'd been working in the industry for a long time and not feeling like my career was going too far. I had a personal incident that happened that I mentioned in my speech. I had lost my son. And during that moment, the way he was treated, there was a lot of stereotypes that come up in terms of who he was.

So he had passed the muscular dystrophy. He's six foot six. No, he's about six foot three. He had muscular dystrophy. And there was an assumption that he was a basketball player or that he was really strong or strapping. But actually the opposite was quite true. And just understanding that,

that I had worked on a lot of black programs for that time and that in some way I might have reinforced some of those stereotypes felt really uncomfortable. And I wanted to be in a space where actually all types of stories should have the space to be told, right? Do you know what I mean? The good, the bad, the indifferent. And actually, I don't want to be judged,

or I don't want to go into a space. And actually, my life chances is dependent on the cut of my skin because of a story that you've heard on TV. I don't want to be a part of that. So I definitely want to just want to give agency and ensure that stories and representation happens. early and openly and like, God, who knew that so many years on I'll be still set here doing it and receiving a birth to play.

I know. Well done. It's really important. And you create a collective, you've created a community. Yeah. Community is really important, I think. And one of the things we've noticed that community is important is every Friday what we tend to do is we kind of highlight or spotlight somebody who's doing something amazing.

It doesn't even have to be amazing. they might have just got a job promotion or they might have got a new commission or they might have landed a project and we do this thing called Friday Flowers and we think... I like the sound of this. Let's pretend it's Friday even though it's Thursday. So what happens on Friday flowers?

Well, see, we would... I wanted to give you flowers. I was coming up and I was like, I didn't bring you a bunch of flowers. I had any flowers. No, but you do. And I want to give you your flowers because you've been around doing the thing for a long time.

You know what I mean? Both on screen, on radio. And really, you're kind of an example of what we're saying, that people are taking up space doing amazing stuff all the time, don't need special dispensation, and have them right, and are needed, the voices like you are needed. So we give flowers, we say, listen, this person's got a new promotion,

let's give them their flowers. We recently extended that, which was really funny. Tamara Howe, who's the MD at Idris Elvers, 22 Submers, we surprised her. So she thought she was coming to do a master class. It was really funny. And when she was there, we presented her of this VT of all her friends and family, kind of just talking about her.

in the industry and the impact that she's had and presented with a bunch of flowers. She was absolutely gobsmacked. And it's funny, she spoke about, and I think of particularly, I'm going to say black women, or maybe women of colour, or marginalise,

that we don't tend to put our head above the pulpit. We're just going to keep our head down and get going on. Why do we do that? Because we just don't want to disrupt. We don't want to, we don't want to cause any problems. We don't want to rock the boat. We just enjoy it.

We're okay, right? So to put your head up and you're worried about what that means. So Tamara said, and I was really touched, she said she loved being forced out of her comfort zone and to look at the impact that she's made on the industry. And actually, I kind of, tomorrow, I apologise because I feel the same way as I'm standing here in the BAFTA understanding that impact as well. Yes, let it sink in. You're all about giving people the confidence. And honestly, your BAFTA speech really, that was an empowering moment as well.

Also, you looked fantastic, by the way. And you do that because you're empowering people to take up space in the creative industries. But you've also talked about your saboteur voice, the voice that tells you that you're no good. Tell us about that voice and how big a problem it is and what you can do about it. Well, it's funny, because the last couple of days, everybody's told me I look fantastic. In the last couple of days, I've been in my house going, oh, my God, why am I so fair? Do you know what I mean? Why did I sound like that?

Why do I look so angry? Saboteurs, but they're important, right? and originally they were there to protect you. So years and years ago when you was out in the world, you needed something to protect you. You'd have your saboteer, well, not your sabote, but you'd have this protector that would say that this is a dangerous situation

of this is not. Life has changed and we don't need that anymore. So oftentimes in situations, what happens is when we're feeling a bit nervous and a little bit scared. We kind of our saboteur will jump in and say, don't do this, don't put yourself out there, keep yourself small.

The works that we're doing, particularly with breakthrough leaders, is to get into people's ear and remind them that they actually, there's space for them to take up and they belong here. So your mindset, no matter what the systems are, your mindset can change everything, can really create opportunities for you. What breakthrough leaders, tell us more? Breakthrough leaders is a program that we've run.

We're in our fifth year. And actually, tonight we have our graduation. These guys have been fantastic. So we work with senior creatives who are from global majority backgrounds. And they've worked in the industry for eight years or more. We work with them over a year. We kind of do one-on-one coaching that kind of gets in. therein reminds them that they should take up space.

They belong in the industry. They have something amazing to offer. And then they do masterclasses and access days. We've got our amazing partners, Fremant or Amazon BBC Ivy. I mean, like, I don't know, probably forgotten something. But we've got amazing partners. And tonight we're down at Fremant or HQ's and where they're going to share their breakthrough. So break-through leaders isn't about breaking through the industry. It's about breaking through yourself.

So we start the process by asking them, what is it that you want to break through? What do you want to do? So tonight I'm so excited. year on to hear what they think their breakthroughs have been and how they've achieved that through the course of the year. So you've lived through your own experience of working in TV, not getting the breaks that you wanted because people didn't see you. And so you do something about it.

You set at the TV collective, championing young talent, MBE, get a BAFTA. How's the industry looking at the minute? It's bad place, not great. I think it's one of the most challenging times because we're kind of seeing the change of TV. So TV is going through its own thing. People are not watching TV. People are watching digital. People are trying to understand. What does that space

mean? It's a difficult time for everybody. But historically what tends to happen is if you're of colour or you're marginalised or have a disability, that you tend to be the first to go. So what you're finding is people are finding it really hard to find work because work's not around, but even more so

I think people want to work with people they trust or people they relate to. And sometimes of colour, there's assumptions about your capabilities or you're not in the right circle or having access. So actually these people, sometimes you don't always get the call first and jobs are going. So the work is really about how do you survive in this really challenging time? So I just want to kind of get some perspective because you've been doing this for a long time. Like what has the journey been?

Have you seen change over the years? And are we getting better? Has it gone worse? Because there's been so much conversation around it. It was getting. It seemed to. to be getting better, we were seeing a lot more kind of talent coming through. I suppose the change is always constant.

That's the one thing that's constant. It's change, right? Then we've had the kind of post-Trump moment where Trump has spoken about kind of affirmative action programs or diversity, not being quite as not being the thing. So it's kind of a lot of production companies, I mean, what we forget is that, particularly in TV, that a lot of the production companies are HQ than the States. And if they're not HQ than the States, have good relationships with them. So if the political climate in the States is that,

diversity is not a great thing, that will reverberate down to the UK. Whereas many UK production companies are trying to do something, but they're doing it a little bit in quiet. The noise is dissipated and it feels a bit scary, particularly if you're out there and the support kind of seems to have gone away, particularly from 2020. It was really loud and noisy. It's not there anymore. You represent all kind of diverse groups, people from marginalised backgrounds,

but we are a woman's hour. So how are women particularly faring? And women, we've got to talk about intersectionality, haven't we? Absolutely. I think it's really difficult because traditionally as women, we don't necessarily show up and put ourselves out there, right? Do you know what I mean? You start to take this moment personal.

You start to over-personalize this and start thinking, is it about me? Is it something I've done wrong? Do you know what I mean? Maybe I should be more quiet. And this is the time actually to get louder, actually, and to remind the industry that you're out there, the stuff that you do, the value that you bring,

and actually the problem you solve. So we have to be, we have to constantly remind, ourselves and get kind of strong and leave your that kind of um it's about me it's all about me no it's not the time for that do not personalise this is not time to get personalized this is not time to get committed to what it is that you want to achieve and sometimes i say even if you're in service or something bigger than you that also inspires you right so when you feel that it's not just about you actually i want to tell this story because it's so important and people need to hear this story when you hear the nose it kind of shields you a little bit and you're able to get on because it's not just

about, they said no to Simone. No, they're not going to say no to this story because it's so important. So all of those, those are the tools that are needed right now to kind of get through this moment. In your acceptance speech, you used the word, you said manifestation is real. And he said, Daddy, I want a BAFTA. Okay, first of all, Daddy, I want a BAFTA. What did that mean being able to say? I lost my dad about eight years ago.

And eight was a very particular special number for him. And eight years on, there's been a number of things where I felt my dad's present. and I know he would have been extremely proud of me winning a BAFTA and it's one of those things I was spoken to when I was little. I went, I'm little, I'm going to get an award and I'm going to get an award for what I'm going to do, but actually being focused and saying that actually we're going to do something, the work that we're going to do.

So one of the other things that was really important for me is that I talked about being less impressed and more involved and the fact that we don't do it for the light, so we're not doing it for the accolades or anything. But when it happens, it's a really bloody good feeling. And that's what I've learned. It's a really great feeling to be, to kind of be acknowledged for the work that you do.

So being able to acknowledge my dad in that moment, it felt so special. And when you talk about the word manifestation, you see, I feel that that has to, it's hard work. Nothing just lands in your life. And you've been putting the grafting for a long time. So what did you mean by? I don't think, my thing,

this manifestation's that hard. I think we get scared and we allow the noise in. Actually, you just claim it, you believe it, and just move towards it. It's amazing what can happen. And over the last couple of years, I've been spending a lot of time really thinking about conscious creation and what does that look like, right? And even working with our leaders, like, how can we consciously create the careers, the lifestyles that we want? And actually it's a lot easier than we really believe there's a lot of noise in the world that tells that you can't and that you're not allowed to do this and you're not allowed to do it that way.

Just sometimes being really committed to saying that actually I really want this and I believe I deserve it and just moving towards it. It's surprising what can happen. Oh, we're going to leave it on that. What a great place to end the program. Simone Pennant, MBE. Congratulations. That's it from me. Join me tomorrow for more Women's Hour.

That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I told my dad stop immediately. This is a scam. Scam secrets with me, Shari Valle. He had actually paid £209,000 to the scammers. Each week, we expose a different scam in detail to help you spot the red flags.

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