Woman's Hour - PHONE IN - Jane Garvey takes your calls about relationships at work

Episode Date: November 18, 2019

Earlier this month, McDonald's Chief Executive Officer Steve Easterbrook was fired for having a consensual relationship with a subordinate. But what are the rules where you work? And how easy are they to navigate?Do you know where the line is between flirting and harassment in the post #MeToo era? Or has it all gone too far? Whether you’ve had a relationship at work, been affected by the fallout surrounding one, or are an employer who wants to tell us about policies you’ve put in place to protect your workforce, we want to hear from you. Call 03700 100 444 - lines open at 0800 - or email via the website: [e-mail]: Jane Garvey Producer: Anna Lacey

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. This is the Woman's Hour podcast. We're talking today about workplace relationships. Are things different in the era of hashtag MeToo? You could say, with very good reason. We want your involvement, of course, 03700 100 444, if you want to give us a call. We've got some callers lined up already, but we want many more.

03 700 100 444. Or you can email the programme via the website. And as ever, you can guarantee that I will not use your name unless you want me to. So if you go to the website, bbc.co.uk slash womansire, if you have an experience that is relevant in this area, we would like to hear from you and we don't need to mention your name on air. And of course, we're on Twitter and Instagram as well, at BBC Women's Hour. Get involved in this conversation about workplace relationships and whether or not they've changed over the last couple of years.

You might remember the McDonald's chief executive officer, Steve Easterbrook. He was fired for having a consensual relationship with a subordinate. That happened earlier this month. So what are the rules where you work and how easy are they or not to navigate? With me is Chantal Gauthier, who's an expert in workplace psychology. She's the author of a book called The Psychology of Work, and she lectures at the University of Westminster. What are the rules? It's a grey area, Jane. It really is difficult to kind of make it that black and white, what are the rules? I mean, in some organisations in the UK, they just outrightly ban workplace romances. In some organisations, they put in some policies and others, they turn a blind eye.

It's very difficult. It's a tricky, very tricky, great area. As an employee, is it up to you to just know this or are you told this when you sign up and join a company? Yeah, I mean, that's the thing, isn't it? I mean, I mean, it's it's it's. Yeah, you if you read through the contracts of any organisation, I suppose it would be written there whether or not you're allowed to have any relationship in the workplace. But the question is, do people actually do that? Maybe now more and more people are doing that. But it's still difficult because you can ask yourselves, do they have a right to ban workplace romances? I mean, after all, can we regulate who we fall in love with? Well, a lot of our listeners are making the point that they spend so much time at work, they're not going to meet anybody anywhere else. workplace romances? I mean, after all, can we regulate who we fall in love with?

Well, a lot of our listeners are making the point that they spend so much time at work, they're not going to meet anybody anywhere else. Vicky on Twitter says, yes, it's how I met my husband. Long hours at a law firm. It's inevitable that people wind up dating. We did ask what the BBC's policy was, in all transparency, and here it is personal relationships between colleagues are not prohibited but must be declared as per the declarations of personal interest policy if they're likely to create an actual or perceived conflict of interest so that's the bbc's word on this um let's go to favisham and joanne joanne good morning to you morning, Jane. So you did meet your husband at work? Yes, at the end of 2001, we were both teachers. And how did it play in that particular workplace?

Well, we were so busy in our different departments, we didn't work in the same department at the secondary school we met at, that we just really got on with our jobs and kept the relationship out of work, really. We didn't have time to see each other during the day or even speak to each other much isn't it quite exciting actually to be having a relationship with somebody at work you can certainly put a spring in your step on a monday morning can't it yes it's i i think we were both really shocked that we'd actually managed to meet somebody um each other at work and uh yeah well i guess it was fun but um more more to the point we were probably the right kind of people um each other at work and uh yeah what i guess it was fun but um more more to the point we were probably the right kind of people for each other because we were both working in

that kind of the same kind of place i guess and your colleagues did they notice did they care i don't think they cared we did tell them we didn't keep it a secret and we didn't really tell the children to start with you mean your pupils? yes we didn't discuss it with them but our colleagues were really pleased for us in fact several other couples got together at the same school in the following two or three years

and the head teacher joked that he would start a dating agency actually there's nothing more that school kids enjoy actually than a romance between teachers i mean talk about gossip it's absolutely classic isn't it we loved it yeah and you know we worked out as a couple and uh i would never have met him otherwise so i think that it should be allowed really all right um thank you joanne in faversham kicking us off margaret uh is in northumberland

good morning to you margaret hello now iham kicking us off. Margaret is in Northumberland. Good morning to you, Margaret. Hello. Now, I think your point is, and this is an interesting one, you believe that women and men are treated rather differently in this area. Well, yes, I think certainly in my case, my colleagues, not all of them. In fact, most of them were great. They loved us both and they were happy for us both. But one in particular, my line manager, was really quite nasty. She made it quite difficult. What do you mean exactly? What happened? Oh, snide remarks and suggesting that I had got involved with this man because it would help me rise up the ladder.

But she had the sort of attitude I would have expected from another man, but it came from her. And the impact on you as somebody in that workplace, how did things change for you over the course of all this? I think I guess I was much happier. He's a really nice man. He's a genuinely good, decent fellow and very sweet and well-liked. Once we had told the staff, it was easier. And, you know, we went out and and uh together as a as a group and they in fact all came to our house for his 40th birthday and all this sort of thing it it was fine it was just this one person he did he did actually run it past uh the personnel and what you read out about the bbc i

would say is exactly what the university right the university's policy was so we were safe in that sense because neither of us wanted to be causing any kinds of waves that would affect his or my job. Thank you, Margaret. Chantal, the truth is that relationships between colleagues can have an impact on other people in the workplace, and not always actually in a very positive way. No, I mean, particularly if perhaps you have a manager dating a subordinate, and you know, maybe the subordinate is getting promoted or you know in that case the people around them think well that's you know favoritism you know why is this person being promoted she's she or he is not really that good in the job can create tensions

between colleagues um i mean technically you really shouldn't have someone appraising you if you're in that relationship i mean it, you really shouldn't. I mean, it shouldn't absolutely not happen. Although I bet that has happened. Who knows? Maybe that did in the olden days. Who knows? So, yeah, it can have a trickle effect. And also, I think in terms of breaking confidentiality. So, you know, if people are actually disclosing information to you, you know, that you might then pass it on to the person you're having a relationship with,

who's at a more senior role, for example, or even someone who is at the same level. So there is a fear of, you know, pillow talk, as we say. Well, absolutely. And as a general rule, from your perspective as a psychologist, is it better for a couple to be absolutely honest and open about their relationship, or should you keep it quiet? Yeah, you see, it's a really tricky one. I mean, there might be reasons why people don't want to disclose their private lives. It could be, you know, for example, same-sex relationships.

They might feel under scrutiny to actually expose that they are in that type of, that that's the kind of relationship they want and they might feel they don't feel safe enough to disclose that. Or, okay, the more extreme, people are having extramarital affairs. I mean, they're the last people that want to disclose that they're having, for example, a relationship to the, you know, to the organisation. But again, the knock-on effect to colleagues is still potentially there, isn't it? I don't know. I guess if you're sensible about it, if you're professional, if you don't display, you know, emotions, if you don't display signs of affection and you try and keep it, you know, low key, the question is, do you need to?

Do you need to then disclose it? It's a tricky one. Thank you very much. Chantal is an expert in workplace psychology. She's written a book called The Psychology of Work. And you can take part 03700 100 444. Elizabeth is in Ashford in Kent. And Elizabeth, you wouldn't exist if your mum and dad hadn't met at work.

No, that's absolutely right, Jane. Relationships were, or the opportunity maybe to meet were, it was actively encouraged. They worked for a very big company that was part of the distillers group. And many big firms in those days had sports facilities, which everyone used at the weekends. And so they'd go down on a Saturday, play tennis, cricket, etc. And then in the evening, there was a dinner dance. And it was a sort of excuse me dance. My father was the pilot and had a badge on his lapel to say that.

And he had to keep dancing with various ladies until he found the aeroplane, which was my mother. Oh, I see. She had a badge on saying aeroplane. That's right. OK. And then later on, he was bacon and she turned out to be egg. Of course. he was bacon and she turned out to be egg of course and up until then um she was aware of him in the company offices in london but thought he was an arrogant yorkshireman but then when she

got to know him she thought he was really rather nice he took her out they got married and then i came along i think that was quite healthy on the other other hand, when I started work, I worked for a big employment agency, which was American owned, where we had to sign an agreement saying on no account would we fraternize with members of the opposite sex at any point, day, evening or anything else. Well, when you work hard and do a lot of overtime the chances are you haven't got much spare time to to meet anybody yeah you said that was an american company it was manpower manpower is that american i'm afraid i don't know i think it's american owned okay actually just looking right i'm just looking at chantal actually american companies often do take a slightly different yeah tact don't they? They do. They actually, they do impose love contracts. Love contracts?

Yeah, they're called love contracts. So that's compared to the UK. The UK don't really go that direction. They put in policies. So a love contract, actually what that is, is that it is a contract in which the two people who are involved, they sign, if you like, their life away, that they're in a consensual relationship.

They also sign that they understand what the relevant policies are of the organization, that they are aware of any discrimination or any sexual harassment policies. And also part of that contract, it says how they need to hold themselves how they need to you know behave in the workplace but the interesting thing is is that often these love contracts are not really necessarily for the for the couple themselves it's actually for the for the companies to protect them that they're not going to be hit with you know with any claims of harassment or sexual harassment in case someone needs to be moved that they're not going to be hit with, you know, with any claims of harassment or sexual harassment in case someone needs to be moved

or in case someone needs to be... Right. ...is made redundant. Especially you can't blame companies for putting themselves first in this area. 03 700 100 444 is the number if you want to take part. Or you can email us via the website or on Twitter as well. We're at BBC Woman's Hour.

To Glasgow and Hayling, hi there. Good morning to you. Good morning. Now, you met your husband on a training course and you've written a book about harassment in the workplace. So tell me more. Where do we start? Let's start with the husband.

Let's start with the husband because he's been around the longest, which is just over 20 years. We were sent away on a training course by our company for three weeks in a hotel in Florida. And obviously when you've put something like 30 late 20-somethings in a hotel for a long period of time, things happen.

We obviously didn't think it was going to last this long. But the company was well aware after we came back that we had a relationship. And in fact, it's one of the global management consulting companies. And it is very common for people to meet and marry out of that company just purely because you're away from home so much. Yes, and the hours are just extraordinarily long, aren't they? They are, and it's very intensive teamwork.

Now, I never actually worked with my husband on a team or on a project, which I think is our saving grace. But there is a lot of flirtation going on. And it's only natural, really, when you put people in a boiling pot. Did you attempt to keep your relationship quiet or didn't you care? We didn't care because, you know, as I said, we weren't on a project. I mean, I'd had a previous workplace dalliance at an American global company, actually, when I lived in Brussels. And everybody was aware of it. And, you know, most people shrugged it off.

But I think those times have changed quite a bit. We're talking early 90s. I'm nearing 50 now. And what I found interesting, which is why I wrote my novel, which is coming out tomorrow, actually, it's called Stay Mad, Sweetheart. I wrote that because of the gray areas in consent, in harassment and in workplace discrimination, which these lines are very difficult to navigate and aren't even the same for every woman. And, you know, on the one hand, people think it's a generational thing, that older women are a little bit more accepting. I don't think that's necessarily true. And so I really wanted to present some situations

that were thought-provoking for people to think, well, how would I feel about this? Well, what do you think has really changed? And is it really true that nobody quite knows now what the rules so-called are i think there's the very obvious uh sexually harassing anybody is wrong i've managed to not do it for my entire working life so it's not impossible is it no it's not but the question becomes situations where somebody might be going oh you're my favorite and and little compliments which aren't necessarily

harassment but they can make somebody feel uncomfortable um and you know they could be well-intentioned or they could not be well-intentioned and that really depends on the person uh making the comments and I think it's those grey areas that are causing most of the debate when absolutely, you know, touching somebody inappropriately, making comments about people's physique and what might be under their clothes

is absolutely unacceptable. And certainly, particularly when you're in a position of power, having any relationship is probably a terrible idea. I just want to put this one to you. This is an email from a listener who says, I feel sorry for men at work today,

as I do increasingly in society in general. Being aware of the rules on harassment, etc., is a minefield for a man in the workplace. They can't even smile at a female worker, let alone ask a female colleague out without risking being accused of harassment if the overture isn't welcome. I think it will backlash on women.

There are going to be a lot of very lonely spinsters in the future, says that female listener. Hayling, your thoughts on that? Well, I don't agree with the person who's written in, in that general rules of behaviour haven't changed. I think that people are still human, they still want normal interactions. And men and women can behave very normally towards each other in the workplace as they can anywhere else, without there being issues. I think, you know,

if somebody asks you out, and you don't want them to ask you out, that's not harassment, that's just asking you out and you're entirely in your position to say no. Right. No, of course. Yeah. Hayling, thank you. Janie is in Surrey. Are we able to go to Janie? I'm just looking. I think we can. Janie, good morning to you. Hello. Hi there. Now, you've got it's quite a long story yours, but it involves your mum and your former stepdad what happened there well um so my mum um and i were sort of on our own and we had been through quite a difficult time and then she fell in love with this man who was her boss at work and um basically they they i

got to meet him and um he was lovely and they decided to, he basically moved in with us. And it was all great. The weirdest thing was though, that they didn't tell anybody in the office. So they actually ended up buying a house together and it was all totally secret. And I used to go to the office frequently in the holidays because my mum couldn't sort out childcare for me.

So I'd be helping with the filing. And then I'd see him and I'd have to pretend I didn't know who he was. The man who was effectively your stepfather well he was. Yes, yes he was, thought of, yes Did that confuse you as a child?

Well I didn't know, I thought that was sort of normal, I had no idea Yeah, I mean, yes, you have to say that these things today would have been handled rather differently and it might have been somewhat better, I would imagine, certainly less confusing for you. Yes, I don't know.

I was seriously loyal and, you know, although I haven't been employed as an actress since, so I'm not sure how convincing my performance was. Janie, thank you very much. What about that? It can be quite confusing. Things clearly have changed, but the bottom line on harassment, can the rules on harassment really be misunderstood by women or men? Chantal, what would you say about that?

I think it's very clear sexual harassment is a no. That really needs to be implemented in organisations. And it is emphatically not flirting. Well, no, it isn't. It's not. I don't think flirting, I don't know, it's difficult. Because say you have someone that makes advances to you or someone asks you out and you reject that person.

And it's how you reject that person. Because that person might be offended how you reject that person because that person might be you know offended and then they might persist or they might then you know start making your life difficult because you've rejected going out with this person i mean i mean is that where it starts with the harassment well actually i've got an interesting email on that i'll come back to the email because we're going to go now to northamptonshire and uh Katina hello good morning to you good morning now is this a happy story or it is a very happy story go on then tell me it I'm in the mood for a happy story I left school 18 went to work in an architect's department in London and met my future

husband what straight away yeah within yeah within a week of leaving school. It's good going. I know. And I had a complete crush on him and I didn't think anything would come of it because he was 26 and I thought, he's a fully formed man and I'm still a schoolgirl. And he used to come out every morning through reception to go and buy a pint of milk and I'd always be drifting through

to make sure I was there just so he could see me. morning uh through receptions go and buy a pint of milk and i'd always be drifting through to make sure i was there just so he could see me yes well i mean you were in your your late teens were you at the time yes yes nothing untoward going on there um absolutely not no um but you just didn't expect that he would pay you any attention and you were absolutely not when he asked me out on the friday lunchtime i was finished for the rest of the day. I couldn't do any work at all. I was just so besotted. And your colleagues, were they broadly supportive or were you the subject of mockery? Do you know? No, well, I was a young woman in an office full of architects and older women and they thought it was really rather sweet because I was just so besotted and you didn't have a problem with the idea that he was he was clearly your your senior not just in age but in terms of his status in that workplace not at all he was

such a very gentle man and he just wouldn't have taken any advantage at all I know, he was lovely to me he took me he said to me, would you like to come and see Guy with me at the time and I thought I would have gone to the ends of the earth and it was Guy the Gorilla at the zoo, London Zoo I tell you what, I'd actually forgotten about

Guy the Gorilla and I never expected to be talking about him this morning but life can take you by surprise, well Katina that is a story. Thank you very much for talking to us. 03700100444. You're listening to Woman's Hour. We're a bit viral here today, I'll be honest with you. I'm viral, and my guest Chantal is a little bit viral too, but we're happy to chat to you. Tammy says on Twitter, I think it's amazing that people feel the need to navigate workplace relationships. Post me to come on. Harassment is harassment. Why on earth would you pursue someone if they hadn't given you the hey, baby, you're fit wink? I can't wink. It's one of my one of my many problems. But Tammy, thank you for that.

Oh, three seven hundred one hundred four four four. Catherine, which is not her real name, joins us now from elsewhere in London. Catherine, good morning to you. Good morning. Thank you. Yeah. Tell me, what have you got to say? So I've had from the age of 14 difficulties at work from being a Saturday girl, from going to uni, having jobs at uni, theater schools and in the industry the performing arts all the way through and i've had to be very very canny and very wise either be quiet and keep my mouth very firmly closed or i've had to be discretion itself even when i've been offended and it's directly affected me and i've understood that relationships occur and some people are married and they have relationships and you have to be very, very careful in order to keep or obviously get a job offer.

So I'm now at my sort of middle-aged class years i'm working in two different industries two different separate jobs as a mature carer of my family and i'm in a situation now in health care where one of my jobs in health care concerns and historically an old relationship between two members of staff who were management and the culture is impenetrable and when you go to work when I started there was direct flirtation going on both were married to other people both had separate lives privately and everybody just kept their head down right so i mean i don't want to put words into your mouth but effectively this couple's relationship is having quite an impact on colleagues and none of those none of those impacts are positive no um quite apart from the

fact that there are concerns around the workplace in the form of professional delivery there is also a concern that it's a special relationship. If you have any sort of grievance or complaint or workplace observation from proving or enhancing services, you can't go beyond their decision making. So it's a sort of closed shot, really. I mean, it's wrong, isn't it, Chantal? That should not happen. No, not at all. I mean, you're supposed to, when you go to the workplace, I mean, it's wrong, isn't it, Chantal? That should not happen. No, not at all. I mean, you're supposed to, when you go to the workplace, I mean, we're spending so much time at work, more than 35 hours a week we're spending at work. It needs to be a safe environment. Yeah, for everyone.

Absolutely. I wonder what can our listener, Catherine, do? Who does she go to? It's a problem. I mean, it would depend on the culture of the organisation. You know, what are the current policies in place? How do HR, you know, facilitate this? Are they open? Are they not open? Do they feel safe? Do they feel that they can trust talking about this? If the culture is no, then it's likely that they are not going to be doing, that they're going to keep their head down because they don't feel safe. Right. Thank you, Catherine, for that. Now, this is another rather troubling contribution from a listener I think we're going to keep their head down because they don't feel safe. Right. Thank you, Catherine, for that. Now, this is another rather troubling contribution from a listener I think we're going to call Angela.

Angela, good morning to you. Good morning. Now, yours is, well, I'm guessing it's not a common situation, but just explain what happened to you. Well, I'm not sure how common it is because it seems to be sort of quite a taboo subject. I was groped by my boss. I then ended up having a five-year sexual relationship with my boss, which was incredibly abusive. And my boss tried to come between me and my kids, was violent. And my boss was a woman.

And I'm not sure how, you know, I'm thinking we two, not just me two. And I just don't know how much this is spoken about at all. Well, I think you're right. And I'm sorry that you had such a difficult time. I don't think it is spoken about very much. You carried on working alongside this female boss at the same time as your relationship, did you? Well, I did for a few years. But actually, the organization we both

worked for eventually you know had enough and sacked us both and i i must have been extremely difficult i imagine colleagues knew about it did they or at least they knew about the relationship if not the abuse i think they they certainly knew about it yes and. And, I mean, the abuse was very hard. I remember her once saying to me, because I was working as a volunteer for Women's Aid, that she could never work for Women's Aid because she'd enjoy their pain and their suffering, which should have really told me something in the beginning.

To put it very mildly, Angela, this woman sounds deeply unpleasant and possibly extraordinarily troubled herself, although I'm not excusing her behaviour. How are you now? Oh, I'm fine now. I mean, I'm in a relationship now for 20 years with a woman, which is wonderful. Good.

And, you know, so it was just unfortunate. But I actually really do wonder whether a lot of women are actually frightened to talk about it. Does it seem anti-feminist does it seem anti-woman I mean it's just anti-violent of course yes the anti-woman that's it's that's irrelevant the the biological sex of the person carrying out abuse um absolutely thank you uh for talking to us because you're you're right and you're very brave to talk about it um Chantal, that's a very sad story, a very troubling one. But I guess, you know, it probably isn't that uncommon. Toxic environments. Yeah.

Yeah, I don't think, I mean, I'm sure that this happens more often than we think. It's just unreported. It's just like, you know, not everybody discloses that they are in a relationship, let alone a bad one, or if there's one that involves intimidation or coercion, what do you do? Again, if you don't feel safe to disclose

that to the HR or to anybody else close to you in the organisation, you lay low or you decide to leave, or in this case sadly, this person was fired. Yes, but only after many years of suffering from the sound of things. Absolutely. Here's the email i

wanted to put to you earlier because this is from a an anonymous listener who says a senior colleague um divulged personal feelings for me recently and i had suspected those feelings um but thought perhaps it wasn't true and just chose to ignore it as we have been working together on a job i would have considered as friends in and out of work but now it's all too awkward and I will only talk to him in strictly work related circumstances. I don't want to encourage these feelings because they are not reciprocated

and I can't just pass this off as oh isn't it flattering. I've given him no indication of reciprocal feelings because there aren't any. What does that person do? That's really tough. I mean I guess it's like in any situation, whether this is outside or inside at the workplace, if someone fancies you,

you know, you just, I guess you just have to just be kind and say, look, you know, I really, you know, thank you and, you know, appreciate it. Thank you for asking me out or, but, you know, I'm afraid, you know, this is not for me or I'm not in the right, you know, this is not what I want at the moment. You know, I hope you understand, you know,

I think you need to gently, you know, tell someone that you're not interested. And because, you know, people are, egos are going to be affected and it could kind of escalate in a, you know, in a, you know, as a domino effect if people are not, you know, kindly rejected. So maybe that's the way. You need to be transparent about it. But kind when you do it. Yeah, kind. Kind, I think it's important.

But relatively clear that you really do mean this. Absolutely. And maybe, you know, it takes more than once to do this. It might be that you might need to do it a few times because the person might not take no for an answer. I guess that's where the grey area comes. Yes that's quite quite true of course um georgie on twitter says i met my husband of now 20 years as interns at christian aid when working in a big international charity you are very likely to find people with shared values of course and i remember many long-term relationships and budding new romances we

didn't hide it and i remember it being being celebrated. Yeah, I mean, exactly. I mean, that is the key. You know, apart that we can't control how and who we love, we know that there are contributing factors in social psychology, for example, that explain why we are attracted to one person over another. For example, we tend to be attracted, Jane, to like-minded people who indeed share similar values,

who are from similar backgrounds, who are familiar to us, who share commonalities. The notion of a workplace or an employer trying to ban relationships. It's contradictory. And in fact, if you think about their recruitment practices, really, they are recruiting people who are like minded to themselves, almost cloning. So of course, you're going to be then exposed to a pool of people who are going to be similar. So, you know, you could almost argue our organizations unwittingly creating the perfect playground for dating to take place. Okay, let's talk to Samuel in Gloucester, or Gloucestershire. Samuel, good morning to you. Hi, how are you? I'm all right, thank you. Well, I'm not all right, but you don't need to hear about that.

The abuse of power, or power as a significant factor, what would you say about that? Yeah, so, you know, there has been a significant theme throughout this conversation and you know perhaps you're moving on to this but you know one thing that is being admitted is you know the power dynamic in an office environment so i worked in a relatively small office of about five people managed by a woman and to be honest there was a quite odious man who was always ill very rarely seemed to be in the office, and other people needed to take on his workload. And then after about six months, there was a revelation that she was in a relationship with him. So the office manager was in a relationship with him.

Now, it doesn't really matter how that is, you know, the revelation come. Yeah. People obviously immediately felt that there was some sort of favouritism. Well, if he was constantly off sick and was never there, it does suggest that she was at least softer and kinder to him than she might have been to the rest of you. But then if you go to a senior management team and then you've got a senior manager, be it male or female, who's in perhaps a relationship with someone more junior. And, you know, even if they are being promoted on their merits, you know, the lack of disclosure or even the fact that it's disclosed when they're in this relationship can be perceived quite badly. And I think often that is another reason why companies are a little bit wary.

Well, they're right to be wary, aren't they, Shantana? Yeah, I mean, that again is the grey area. When there's a power balance imbalance um yeah and someone does get promoted you know is it on merit i guess but at the same time you could argue you know we're always referring to you know that power balance as if the person who the subordinate the subordinate is actually not in control of their own destiny, that they're vulnerable. And that's not necessarily the case either. If the relationship is hypothetically consensual, you know, they're solid, you know, they're in the relationship for real proper reasons

that they are in love with each other. I mean, it's a... Well, they don't have to be in love with each other, to be fair. Well, yeah, but can it not be possible? You know, in terms of promotions and in terms of appraisals, you'll get someone else to do it. Yes, be grown up. I mean, you can't ban it.

No. And also, I think, Jane, we need to think about that we're supposed to be, we're asked to be more human at work. We're supposed to be more emotional. So what comes with that our relationships samuel what did you want to say uh well i was going to say you know you know in an ideal world we all have honorable outlooks but you know humans are flawed very much flawed and sometimes and i'm not saying this with everyone yes the power dynamic might differ in that the person who's

the subordinate may see it as an opportunity to advance. I mean, you know, if you look at all the MPs and politicians and the trouble they get themselves into right now in the papers, you can see exactly where this power dynamic might differ and be used to advance someone else. Quite. But again, without the disclosure or with this disclosure, both elements can be very challenging thank you very much for that um katherine is around london and katherine you've had relationships with people that you've worked with over the years yes i've had relationships at work um in jobs and i've met men i was extremely fond of and you know subsequently had relationships i've also been sexually harassed well going back to university

um a horrible head of department and also once in work and what i want to say is there is a world of difference yes between having a relationship and being harassed between flirting and harassing and i really have very little patience with all these men who say that they don't understand and they don't know to be fair the email i read out on that subject was from a woman this morning uh so it's not just men who say they feel confused some women feel that men are right to feel confused yes and i do get that but i think the awful thing and this struck me it was something that my harriser if that's what you want to call it said to me because he was presenting this as his harassment, as flirting and I should be flattered and all of that,

and he said, but I'm a geezer. You've got to expect me to be persistent. I'm a geezer? Well, yes, this is what geezers do. They sexually harass people. But I think, you know, I don't think men are creeps. I think men are taught to be creeps and socialised to be creeps. Well, no, some are, but obviously not all.

But there's a sort of, you know, what you might call lad culture back in the day. And maybe if men really don't know the difference, maybe they should be sent on a training course their first week at a job and be told this is harassment, this is flirting, there's the the difference or maybe and i think this maybe this goes back to school and we should all be educated about this i mean finally school children are being taught about relationships and consent not before time but i think children growing up who are going to work in offices and who are going to do jobs and who are existing in this post-MeToo world should actually be taught this is harassment. This is going too far. This is not on, whether you're a man or a woman.

Thank you. Whoever it is, you're harassing. No, a lot of people will thoroughly agree with you, Catherine. Thank you very much. Amy is in Stoke-on-Trent and I think Amy you you had a relationship about 10 years or so ago with with one of your bosses yeah I was um 19 um it was my first sort of job at a big resort um and um this gentleman started by offering me a lift to work he was quite quite pleasant, you know, complimented me. I'd say that probably lasted for about three, maybe six months. And eventually I started a relationship,

but it was very, I was almost scared to not go along with what was happening, which was difficult. And I mean, I knew we were married and I went through a lot of turmoil and nobody to talk to about it. And when I eventually sort of plucked up the courage to end this, it got very strange. He would come down to where I was working regularly. He would leave messages. He would ring me constantly.

It was, yeah, it was really stressful. And I ended up moving away. I mean, it gave me the push to go to university, which was good in the end. But it was... And it bothers me a lot now because I did go back to this workplace about five years later, maybe longer.

And I did open up then to my manager about what had happened and he was still working there. And I was worried. So, sorry, the guy who'd been in that relationship with you was still there? Yeah, yeah, he's still there now. Oh, is he, right. Okay, and possibly still behaving in that

way? Yeah, I think he's a serial fangirl. There's a lot of seasonal staff that come and go, young girls for first job and when I returned to the workplace, he would... While I worked, it had nothing to do with him, you know, and he would come down and make unnecessary visits to the workplace he would keep me when I worked had nothing to do with him and he would come down and make

unnecessary visits to where I was working and I told my boss that it was something that I wanted support with if I was going to return and nothing, yeah it was really stressful and it bothers me a lot now because I did engage with it but I do feel I was

I don't think that's hard to say I don't think that is too strong a word judging by what you said let me just put that to Chantal we're talking here about and I totally get the caller's point there Amy it was her first job it was sort of flattering to have this man paying you attention

I don't know this I think is a really good example where there is an unhealthy power imbalance between two people. In this case, Amy was vulnerable. She was new. She, you know, she didn't have much experience. And she was coerced and intimidated and had obviously nowhere to go to actually pull away from that.

Did you tell anybody, Amy? Eventually, I sort of opened up to my mum, and she was very unsupported as well. She was sort of, you know, well, it's your fault. You know, it was just sort of like, you know, tough, get on with it. You put yourself in that situation. So it was very... And I sort of resented myself for many years, sorry,

because it was like, oh, I brought it all on myself. But as I got older and I realised, actually, no, I was young and naive. Of course. So it does bother me a lot, yeah. Yeah, well, thank you very much for talking about it. It shouldn't bother you. You did nothing that you should be ashamed of or worried about now. But it is interesting that Amy's mother's point of view, Chantal,

wouldn't have been uncommon. It still isn't actually uncommon, is it? I wonder if that's a generational issue. I mean, going out with someone much older, you're young, you know, what are you doing? You know, think about it. You know, what are you putting yourself into? I don't know. I find that quite interesting.

I mean, as a mother, surely you would support your child. You'd hope so. Kate takes issue with one of our earlier contributors. This is an email. She says, as a very happy and not remotely lonely spinster, I can honestly say I don't think I've ever heard such nonsense about how poor men must navigate the minefield of behaviour in the workplace. It is a workplace, not a social club. Surely everyone by now must realise what are appropriate and inappropriate behaviours and And there are no excuses. Incidentally, I think the term spinster may have been used in a negative sense in a previous email.

I love the word and I embrace it. I'm single through choice and it doesn't make me sound all lonely. I'm in control of my choices. Kate, I'm with you every step of the way. Don't you worry about a thing. Thank you very much for emailing the programme. Chantal, thank you very much as emailing the program chantal thank you very much as well here are some more emails uh this is from i don't think we'll mention the listener's name can you raise the issue of relationships between lecturers and young students i married

somebody who was one of my lecturers he was 17 years older and his wife had left him with two teenage daughters i was just 24 in retrospect i feel he knew what he was doing rather more than I did. This happens and happened a lot and is not, in my view, talked about very much. The listener doesn't tell us exactly what happened in that relationship, but judging by the tone of it, I think we can probably guess. David says, I was 16 when I met my husband at work. He was 21. I was 19 when we married.

Next year, we celebrate 40 happy years together. Today, this wouldn't be tolerated as I worked in safeguarding. And I can understand this, but I'm very glad our relationship happened. From another listener, a person who engages in sexual harassment at work, in my experience is very much a type usually narcissistic and somebody who exploits other people's politeness and fear other people in the company know about their behavior and tolerate it if it's not directed at them yes i think that listeners probably right. There might well be a blind eye type feeling, blind eyes being turned.

What else have we got? I work in a female-dominated profession and whilst in a junior position, got into a relationship with a male senior leader. We're still together. We have a young child and another one on the way. We told our employer within two months of getting into a relationship and the experience was and still remains the single most damaging experience of my life. We were gossiped about relentlessly.

He was cast as a sleaze whilst I was openly described as a slut, the insinuation being that I'd slept my way to the top. It was handled terribly by my manager and my partner's manager and indeed HR when I logged a complaint about it. The organisation just didn't know what to do about this and failed absolutely to manage the concerns of colleagues or my own concerns. So what followed was bullish and bullying behaviour when we were both typecast into stereotypes. This listener is I think on Twitter and says, it's not about having grown-up relationships in the workplace, is it?

It's more about those using a position to their advantage and sadly those who become jealous and assume there might be something going on that causes issues. From Chris, a kister boy at 17, a fellow dispatch rider, realised it wasn't a good idea. Managed to avoid work romance for 20 years. Then working for a lovely hippie trucking company, I cracked and slept with a boss once. All hell broke loose, says Chris. It turned out I was right the first time. From Colin, I had a relationship with a work colleague.

We were engaged two and a half weeks after our first date which was before most people even knew we were an item 27 years later and two kids we are still together there you go there is there are some happy stories out there there really are and let's end with uh a listener who says i met my first husband at the job interview well that is also that's impressive progress, isn't it? Going for a job interview, presumably getting the job and finding a husband, although they do say, of course, first husband. So clearly something else did happen along life's highway. Thank you to everybody who contributed.

We are back tomorrow and our guests include the actress Mia Wasikowska and Lady Anne Glenconner. Once a lady ining to Princess Margaret. That's tomorrow. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.