Woman's Hour - PHONE-IN: Meghan, the Duchess of Sussex

Episode Date: January 13, 2020

When Meghan Markle entered the Royal Family it was seen by many as the dawning of a new age, a breath of fresh air.Less than three years later the Duke and Duchess of Sussex have announced their wish to ‘step back’,We want to hear your thoughts. Do you think their announcement was outrageous or an inevitable consequence given the treatment of Meghan, the Duchess of Sussex?What impact will her ‘stepping back’ have on the Royal Family?The number to phone is 03700 100 444. Lines open at 0900.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. This is the Woman's Hour podcast. It is good morning and we want your voices, your views on Woman's Hour this morning. 03 700 100 444. We're talking about really the issue that is still the only show in town, Meghan and Harry and the big showdown at Sandringham today, as some people are billing it and with me this morning, the BBC's Royal Correspondent

who's got a quarter of an hour for us, we are much blessed. Oh don't, I wish I could stay longer, I really do. Oh I know, it's Johnny Diamond. Now Johnny, you have written in an article for the BBC website today the Meghan myth is nonsense with a generous sprinkling of spite misogyny and some racism

the prince always wanted out and together with her brains andling of spite, misogyny and some racism. The prince always wanted out, and together with her brains and understanding and love, they think they have a way. Tell me more. Well, I mean, that kind of says it, really. I mean, I was addressing in particular this... What a... Megan myth makes it sound, you know, hashtag.

But it's this idea that's knocking around that she is the evil origin of everything that has brought Harry and Harry and her to the point that they're at. And it's self-evidently not true. And I just don't want to sit here, you know, and go through Harry's unhappiness and the causes for it. It's

his business and it's his personal life but it's been very tough for him and he has found someone who understands that and has fashioned what they think is a route out and it's

nothing that could be interpreted as entirely driven by her. It is so clearly driven by him. You, like me, white, middle class, work for the BBC. Do you see that Meghan Markle... You happen to be bald. I'm not. You are bald. Do you think... Nailing that down. Do you think that Meghan Markle, the Duchess of Sussex,

has been treated in a way that no other member of the royal family has ever been treated? I mean, they are all uniquely tortured by the lives that they are forced to lead in the public gaze. And somehow, something about the institution, and I mean this as an observation rather than an insult, the institution and the public gaze in which it is placed, something about that has led to these astonishing characters. Now, you know, Diana was uniquely observed and interpreted. Now, Meghan has been, but gosh, the result. Let's talk to Afua Hirsch,

who is somebody who's written about this. Her book is called Brit-ish on race, identity and belonging. Afua, what's your take on this? Morning, Jane. I think it was really interesting to hear Johnny talk about that. I completely agree that I think that we have this really toxic relationship with the royals in general where we clearly don't want them to leave, as evidenced by the

reaction to Harry and Meghan announcing they're leaving. But we also want them to stay so that we can abuse them. And I think that is the case with all senior royals, that we abuse them. But in Meghan's case, I think it's impossible to separate that abuse from the very racialised language that has surrounded her from the very first moment

their relationship became public. And I think it's a very sad state of affairs that for the first person who openly identifies as a person of color, as someone of African heritage, to be in that position in the senior echelons of the royal family, to feel so targeted and to feel that that language and narrative and the way in which her character assassination has played out is clearly linked to her heritage and

it doesn't mean that she's necessarily the only person who suffered from the tabloid press but it definitely means that there is an element of racialized abuse in that narrative that I can't think of any other reaction to it than saying that she and her husband would like to raise their child in a healthier place. Johnny? To quote myself in a piece on online, this is not a great national moment, not for the way she feels she has been treated and clearly in some quarters has been treated, and not for the way that Harry has been treated, given the life he has led and the very clear sacrifice he has made.

As I also point out, forgive me, I just don't want to make it sound as though I'm saying terribly clever things, but Harry has worn the uniform of the country and is now just sort of cannon fodder, page after page, meme after meme, feed after feed, of abuse and sneering. This is not a great national moment i hope you can stay with us because i just want to bring some callers in cheryl has rung from telford cheryl good morning to you good morning jane hi guys um yeah first let me say i am a massive

supporter of harry and megan and so you know um just picking up on what athwa said while i think that race was a part of it, I just generally think they needed more guidance on how to handle Meghan's public image in order to avoid what's happened. Because, you know, the evidence is clear that the press went for Meghan, even though there are examples of her doing exactly the same things as Kate, like holding her stomach, wearing a one-shoulder dress, all of these things. She would be vilified and kate would be praised i just think the press and the british public have certain expectations of women

and royal women in particular which is basically to be beautiful and to have beautiful children and not basically have a voice and rural women have to be seen and not heard and i just think harry and megan needed more guidance to know how best to give Meghan a voice while not playing into the quest of his hands. I mean, we should say, of course, that Meghan had the temerity to have a very successful career before she came to Britain and entered the royal family. She also spoke about feminism, which I remember us celebrating on Woman's Hour. That was all a first as well, Cheryl. Yeah, I mean, you know, I was commenting to a friend last year that this seems

really trivial, but things like even the fact that when asked questions in public, Meghan would answer before Harry could possibly backfire. You know, it's just there's just so much protocol around the royal family and what is acceptable. You know, I think Michelle Obama is actually a great example of how somebody has to adapt their style when they're in that public eye. And actually, they are they are not the main kind of character. And I think just Meghan needed something similar, basically. I really appreciate your call, Cheryl. Thank you very much. Afua, I just want to put this email to you from a listener who says, I don't think race is a factor as Meghan neither speaks nor looks like what the emailer calls a typical

Afro-American. That's really disproving that there's any racism at work in the way people perceive. I've had a lot of people say to me, well, she can't experience racism because she's half white or she just looks like she has a suntan. You know, this entire coverage has been exhibit A of the problem in britain that we are incapable of dealing with race in a sophisticated way taking a person who is biracial has a complicated identity where she's american she's now senior british royal she has an african-american mother and a white father and this is all part of who she is and we have not been able to treat that with any respect or avoid the temptation to caricature it and link her to things like gang crime or mass murder because she eats an avocado. The white male, they are largely male, media types, I'm not talking about you, Johnny, who have been given the space to express their amazement that people feel that racism has played a part in this.

The extraordinary culture of denial that people are still spouting and being allowed to spout. Well, it was Mark, she was on TV with Piers Morgan this morning, who is kind of ground zero, I think you're describing, who's obsessed with Meghan Markle. I mean, obsessively writes and attacks her and was absolutely outraged at any suggestion that there was any element of racism in the constant attacking of her. Even when I pointed out the very overtly racist things that have been said about her, for example, comparing her baby, her newborn baby, to a chimp. And I think that, you know, this is surreal, because we've seen the tabloid press attack her, perpetrate racist narratives, and now

treat us to the spectacle of their outrage that anyone would suggest that it's been racist. And this is what happens in Britain. You know, we have, as you put it, a powerful denial that we have inherited a racialized world. And instead of taking a moment like this for reflection and asking ourselves, what happened here? What happened where this man who, as Johnny was saying, served the country, this woman who came here with no one can dispute good intentions,

has been busy, as all other royals have been in public service and charity. What happens to make them feel that they cannot have a life in this country where they and their child can thrive? And instead of us asking that question instead, we've just been lashing out at them further. I think it's remarkable.

And it's also sadly showing me that we're not taking opportunities to really learn from the mistakes that we make in Britain. We're just perpetrating them further and lashing out at anyone who, like me, has the audacity to call them out because when you write, as I do, about the racism at work in this country, about my

experience as also a mixed-race woman with African heritage in previously very white spaces in the British establishment, many people react by attacking me. And that, unfortunately, is not by any means by everyone, but by the specific section of the tabloid press that most hate Meghan Markle. They also hate people like me for having the audacity to have a voice.

Thank you, Afua. Afua Hirsch, the author of British. You can seek out that book if you'd like to know more about her. 03-700-100-444. Race plays a part. Let's talk class. We've got the whole cocktail, the whole gamut we're running on Woman's Hour this morning. Joanne is in London.

Joanne, good morning to you. Good morning. Tell us, you're an American, aren't you, but living here for some time. I am. I've lived here for 30 years this June. And I met my husband in the US and he brought me back here and he's a publicly school educated man. And actually we've privately educated our own children who are grown adults. But I must say, I felt like I've always had a

lovely reception from sort of ordinary British, but even amongst my friends who are, I must confess, are primarily publicly school-educated, there is a real prejudice against Americans generally. And my friends, it often happens in my book group, somebody says something really negative about Americans, and then they'll go, oh, Joanne, I'm so sorry. I didn't, of course, I didn't mean you. You're not like that.

But of course, I am like that. It's just that they're used to me and they know me. And but there is a sort of upper class prejudice against and upper middle classes prejudice that I don't find at all amongst shopkeepers or taxi drivers or just ordinary British people that I meet throughout the country. So your experience has been that the higher up so-called the class system you go, the worse the prejudice? Yes.

Right. Perhaps it's something about lost empire, you know, sort of ceding to the Americans. And it's quite difficult for Meghan because she, you know, we're raised to be patriotic and to be proud that we've relinquished the chains of colonialism and everything. And now she's embodying, you know, she's supposed to embody sort of the great, you know, British history. And she hasn't had a chance to live here and really love and enjoy what's, you know, tremendous. And I have great affection for living in this country, but she needs time to enjoy it

and see all the wonderful things that, you know, and she's sort of deprived of the ordinary, lovely experiences of living in Britain, being sort of living in the limelight and not being able to sort of just muck in with the ordinary British person. Thank you, Joanne. Of course, some people would say, well, she should have,

indeed, she has said herself that some of her friends did warn her about what life was going to be like, perhaps not quite as simple as she might have hoped. Johnny has had to go. He is a man in demand here at the BBC today. But to keep me company, I have got Radhika Sangani, who's a journalist who writes for amongst other things. You've written for The Mail, The Guardian and The Telegraph. You are in your 20s, aren't you? And I think there is a generational split here of sorts, isn't there? In my own experience, talking to my kids and to their friends,

Harry and Meghan are pretty popular. Yeah. And it's funny, because when I heard the news that they were leaving, my first thought was, oh, yay, I'm so happy for them. Because I immediately interpreted it as them making a decision for them. Yeah, you know, in a way, it's sort of like the millennial fairy tale of, you know, I often think, you know, if it was me in that situation, what would I do? And I feel like she's done exactly what me and my friends would have done. We've thought about ourselves. She's thought about her family, her baby, her life. And she's thought, I've tried to do this.

I've given it everything. It's not working. It's affecting me, my health. We've seen how teary she was in that interview she did. It's clearly affected them. And so she's made the right decision for them. You know, I was interested in what Cheryl,l our first caller said about the fact that in interviews it can be megan who takes the lead now this is because she's an intelligent woman

she's articulate she's been very successful as an actress are we still so set in our ways in this country that some elements of the population just can't take it when a woman appears to be the brains of the outfit to be crude about it completely a woman appears to be the brains of the outfit to be crude about it completely and i think obviously the fact that their role is even more so because we've just not seen that before you know for example with with will and kate um you know she probably kate probably fits in that more traditional role where perhaps she does let william speak first and you know that's just the way things are done but because megan's come from a completely different world she is you know in inverted commas more normal maybe so she's you know, that's just the way things are done. But because Meghan's come from a completely different world, she is, you know, in inverted commas, more normal maybe.

So she's, you know, she's come from having a career, a life, a world of her own where she's done interviews, you know, probably much more than Harry has. So that is her norm to speak up and have her voice be heard. I should say you can, of course, comment too on social media. It's at BBC Women's Hour on Twitter and on Instagram. Jane is in Somerset. Hi, Jane. Good morning to you. Good morning. Now, you think that the media, the newspapers in particular, have had it in for Meghan? Well, yes. Interestingly, I'm naturally

a sort of more of a Guardian reader. But in fact, because of Brexit, I felt the need over the last couple of years to try and scan all of the newspapers in the morning online, just so I got a sense of how the stories were being reported on both sides. And again, my friends would describe me as definitely not a monarchist. But I was really intrigued by the stories about Meghan, which I kept seeing seeing and it was extraordinary how it seemed to me that just two weeks after the royal wedding they started laying into Meghan and I mean I just found the stories bewildering I mean particularly they may started up making a big thing about oh she's wearing a new expensive dress and my reaction was well she was hardly going to already own this

sort of suitable clothes for this new role. And then they would pointedly have a picture of Kate saying, oh, she's worn it twice before. Yeah, I mean, this is the old thing of pitting the women against each other, isn't it? Yeah, exactly. But it felt to me right from the beginning that there was a very conscious attempt to create a number of different negative narratives.

And as I say, it was very specifically in certain newspapers. And during the course of the last couple of years, I've commented to friends every so often saying, you know, I've noticed this thing happening. And friends who don't read those papers were really unaware of it. And the way the thing continued when she was pregnant and at the time I was very struck I've lived overseas I've also had three children and I was thinking this must be such a hard time for her you know sort of becoming a mother being pregnant being in a new country no doubt she was feeling incredibly isolated so to be going through this constant barrage,

I mean, at the time, again, I regularly said to my friends, I am so concerned that she's going to develop postnatal depression. Yeah, because of all that. And so, you know, all I can say is, I am echoing what a previous caller said about millennials. I am so delighted that the two of them have actually taken ownership of the problem and said, no, we're not going to become ill from this. We are going to do something.

We're off. And you know what? Yes, you can say that's being selfish, but sometimes looking after yourself does require a degree of selfishness. Jane, thank you very much. Jane was one of a number of people who rang 03700 100 444, got through to Women's Hour here on Radio 4. It is worth saying there is another point of view out there. Sarah says, stop this nonsense about British royal women just being pretty with no voice. Kate has had a beautiful and elegant way of expressing who she is and still just gets on with her royal duties. Here's an email from Alyssa. Everyone seems to be missing here the fact that Harry has been provided by Meghan with not manipulation, but a valid emotional life. All of us can only imagine. We don't actually know.

But if you look at her comment on how she tried to apply a stiff upper lip and just couldn't, and she believes it's ultimately bad for health, this is as much the narrative here as, in my mind, undoubted different treatment the press has given her as a foreigner and an outsider and a person of dual heritage. Frank is also in Somerset in Burnham-on-Sea. Frank, good morning to you. Tell me your take on this. Yeah, what do you think? I feel that they've behaved very badly. You don't do your dirty washing in public. I think he's been very disrespectful to Her Majesty.

Why should the 93-year-old monarch have to go through all this at her time of life when she has a sick husband as well and he could have had the decency to say he wanted a meeting with the Queen and with Charles and try and sort it through it's wrong for her to come over to our country and try and change the way our royal family behave the world looks up to them because, OK, it's all pomp and ceremony. He knew all that. He was born into that. He probably told her all about that. She was an actress.

And, you know, if you look at some of the clips that were on television last night, when they get out the car, she doesn't get the protocol right right she goes and shakes hands with the receiving party before he does oh yeah well that's the royal she's only married into it you see frank there we are i don't i don't want to generalize about you but i'm guessing you might be are you in your 60s i'm 74 right okay i mean protocol a lot of the younger generation and the royal family have got to appeal to the younger generation to justify their own existence. Young people don't care about that kind of thing, Frank. Well, I'm sorry, but, you know, when you compare the way...

In such a short time, you know, if you're not happy in a firm, you leave the job, you leave the perks and whatever they were at that company, and you move on. Now, if they want to be Mr. and Mrs. Smith, then be Mr. and Mrs. Smith, but don't ask us to support you. Go and make your own way in the world, as Meghan did before. Harry had no choice. He was born royal. But don't want to have your cake and eat it. That is not on. And I don't think she should be trying to change the way that the royal family is. Frank, I appreciate you coming on. And it's certainly of you.

And other people will no doubt share it. I don't think Joy in Reading will, though. Joy, good morning to you. Morning, Jane. So what do you think? Well, I honestly feel now I am a black woman. My parents came to Britain from the West Indies in the 1950s, and there were problems then. However, over the years, I've hoped that things would get better, you know,

with the way that black people are treated and what have you in Britain. And I've never held on to that. But I have to say that after Meghan and Harry were married, I did see a decline in the way that people, you know, that you heard more and more about more derogatory and negative news about her. And I just feel very sad today as a black woman who was born in Britain. I just feel now that, you know, where do I go from here? I've got many white friends. Both of my godparents were white, and it hasn't ever mattered to me. I know people in England say that it isn't race. I find that incredibly difficult to believe, I'm afraid. And all I'm going to say is that I really say to English people today, I think it's a deficit to see a black person and just feel that you can be negative about them. Can I ask you just, Joy, I don't want to interrupt because you're making a very passionate and very pertinent point.

Can you just hang on? I just want you to have a quick listen to Priya and then I will come back to you, I promise. OK. Priya, I think you take a slightly different stance, don't you? I can say that I categorically disagree wholeheartedly with the previous caller. Obviously, that's her experience. Mine is completely different. I am a woman of Indian origin, born in London, raised in London. I have African heritage. I have lived in South Africa, I've lived in America,

and I am appalled and horrified that it has been categorized in the press that Meghan Markle has been treated in a racist fashion. This is not a racist country at all, and I absolutely, it hurts my heart that it has been characterized in that way. There's been legitimate criticism of Meghan Markle and that has now been overshadowed by this whole race issue. And certain commentators aren't allowed to say it because they're male and they're white. Well, I'm not male and I'm not white. And I didn't come from a privileged background. My grandfather was a railway worker on the railways in Africa.

My grandmother, in the 1920s, managed to get an education, become a teacher, and that has enabled my family to start a life in England. I have absolutely no words for what is going on at the moment. This really, really is catastrophic. OK, let's bring Joy back in. What do you say to Priya Joy? Well, I will say that when someone has a child, as Megan has just had a child,

and there are reports such that the gentleman who made them was suspended when you call somebody's baby, baby is an innocent, a chimp, and then somebody else writes something about the fact that when the little boy Archie was put in the paper, that he had dark, evil eyes. How do you explain that? I don't particularly, I don't say care, but I don't particularly, I will take on board people saying, I don't say care, but I don't particularly, I will take on board people saying,

I don't agree with you. I mean, that is what is a democracy. But however, I will say to anyone today in England, that we as black sisters, we know what has gone on, and no one will be able to ever take that from us so whether someone can understand racism or not or you know it doesn't matter because we as black sisters we know together what's gone on we don't ask people to like us but what we do ask people is that they would respect us. And I wish Harry and Meghan the very best when they do go, because they can get on with their life and hopefully just move away from this vitriol, because it's hateful. Joy, thank you. And our thanks to Priya as well.

Just an indication there. I mean, you're not going to get universal agreement on this. Radhika, listening to that, what would you say? I mean, I'm also a woman of colour. I'm of Indian heritage. And listening to that conversation between the two callers was really interesting. But I suppose the danger here is that everybody starts putting their personal experiences on it. Well, you're bound to, aren't you? Well, exactly. But I suppose the danger is that we'll then view Megan's experiences purely

through that lens. And then that, you know, that's kind of been the problem in a sense that a lot of white people writing this you know these news stories are like well I can't see it so it doesn't exist and then you know it becomes this issue in that way and I think we just have to sort of strip it all back and just go straight back to the facts you know just now I've just been seeing on the TV screen

these headlines about Megan from when from when they first announced their engagement with saying that you know she's straight out of Compton. And, you know, we just can't deny that there is a racist undertone to this sort of thing. And, yeah, I mean, it is obviously an issue that lots of people are going to have these views about

and feel quite sensitive about and depending on your personal experience. But, you know, someone like Priya, for example, might just have been really lucky to not have those experiences. know you won't be surprised to hear that Priya's phone call and Joy's views have got people talking on Twitter um Rinaldi says for a lot of male commentators this is Rinaldi's view Kate is perfect she shuts up and knows her place Megan doesn't accept things and it incenses them and to that lady that says there are no racists in this country well that's your experience.

Please don't speak for me. And as a white woman, I know if I've learned anything, and it's taken me a while to learn even this, I'm simply not qualified to comment. So I think we want to move on. Let's talk to, where shall I go next? Let's go to Paris and Elizabeth. Elizabeth, good morning to you.

Yes, hello. Hi there. Tell me what you think. Well, I think firstly, there's nothing new has happened with Meghan in a particular way in terms of everybody who's married into the royal family, Princess Di, Fergie, etc., have been persecuted. And everything, can you imagine if we lived under a microscope that they put everybody under and i think that the thing the question that nobody's addressing are two things firstly the tabloids are not interested in british success and secondly the fact that it's very difficult to change countries so if you can imagine as an average Brit, if we tried to move into the royal circles,

we'd find that hard. There'd be a lot to learn and we'd need support and guidance. And if you're American or you're Canada or North America, it's very different as well. I've moved in my life and lived, you know, some people just go and they live like on the periphery and they don't actually integrate into a society. So they're sort of somewhat protected. But I think that we must remember that the royal family is a huge asset to us, whether it's economically, for tourism, for getting deals done throughout the world

and nobody is taking care of Meghan Markle who is really, really an asset to us and we can use her and help her become part of that royal family or we can vilify her and at the moment we're giving all the power to the tabloids and it seems rather sad but it's not a new story. Elizabeth, thank you very much. Johnny I think is in agreement fundamentally with Elizabeth he's in Devon. Johnny, good morning to you Hi, how are you doing?

I'm alright thanks. Now I gather you quite like you like Meghan? Yeah, I think she's hugely important. I think something that was missed when they first got married is she proved in the 21st century that a young girl from a divorced family mixed race can grow up and be a princess and i think that's such a magical thing to have in the 21st century we live in a secular you know society these days

and the media have just slowly taken it to pieces you know, we don't get to choose who they have as partners. They aren't ours. They aren't possessions. She was a fantastic ambassador for women. You know, she was a career woman. She's outspoken of women's rights. What actually is it that they don't like about her, that she was divorced, that she's mixed race? It's, media should be ashamed, really.

We should have put our arms around her like they have done with Kate. Howard would have often said, yeah, this is the 21st century that we live in. It's just, it's awful. Thank you very much, Johnny. I have to say, I was at the, I wasn't at Harry and Meghan's wedding, I was in Windsor amongst the crowds. That was a great day. We had a lot of fun that day and the crowds absolutely lapped it up radically.

It does seem, it seems a long time ago now. It isn't actually, it does seem a long time ago. I know. It just, it's so strange to see how it's, you know, how it's changed so much and so drastically. And I think there's been a lot of accusations that Meghan's been really naive about all of this, you know, like, well, she should have known what it would be like to marry into the royal family. I don't think you can ever know. Well, exactly. But also the fact is, it was so positive when she did, you know, there was this really excitement. So I think that just shows just how hard this must have been for her as well

in the sense that it was so unforeseen. It was this drastic change that seemed to come out of nowhere and it's just got worse and worse and worse as time has gone on. Frances is in Halifax. Good morning to you, Frances. Good morning, love.

Now tell me what you think. Well, as a mum, I'm really as a mum and a grandma, I think if that was my son or she was my daughter i would say to them you'll go do what makes you happy you'll go and go anywhere in the world as long as you're happy because that's what it's all about you get married and you're learning to live with each other and you're learning about each other and you're also learning about your in-laws which is quite daunting when you go for the first time to your in-laws.

And everybody's just, to me, everybody's just bombarding them and being so awful to them. And they're a young couple. All they are at the end of the day is a young man and a young woman who are married with a baby. At the end of the day, that's what they are. And everybody is just

being so awful to them. But okay, Frances, can i just put to you there are lots of people who feel that for example they they didn't treat the queen particularly well that they haven't thought this through that they're somewhat self-involved and a bit indulged what do you say about all that i think probably not um but it's impulse it's an impulsive they'd be they've probably just got to the end of the tether and said, that's it. I'm just, we've had enough now. And if she'd been feeling, if that had been my daughter and she'd been tricked,

that young girl's being tricked, I would be, oh, I would so cross. I don't know what I'd do because I felt so sorry for her. She's a lovely young girl. I just, I know it's all wrong. I don't live in the world of the royal roll-up. None of us do. We don't know the protocol. But I don't just think it's the royal.

I think it's all the establishment, the establishment of the royal family, all the people who organise things. I don't know what they call them. But I just think everybody should leave them alone. And the family, let the family get together and sort it out. It's nothing to do with anybody else. It's nothing to do with anybody else. It's nothing to do with anybody at all. It's up to them.

Let them lead the life and get on with it with their babies and just enjoy themselves. That's all I'm saying. I'm ringing for that. I think a lot of people will really be giving you applause, I would imagine, because they'll be entirely in agreement. Thank you, Frances. I just want to bring in Kenny, who's in hi Kenny good morning hi good morning so um go on

you speak yes um I just listened to a lot of the contributors this morning and I felt that they've made really important points very salient points and I mean I think that as someone mentioned at the time of the royal wedding, you know, everyone was so happy because we saw the union as a sign of British multiculturalism. The press boasted that the wedding was a sign of a much changed Britain, yet they derive the changes that Meghan Markle brings in the same breath. I feel that they're unable to reconcile their unconditional psychophancy to royalty with the nation's deep-rooted biases. Oh, your line's just breaking up there. Do you just want to repeat that, Kenny? Because that sounded interesting. I said, I feel that they're unable to reconcile

their unconditional psychophancy to royalty with the nation's deep-rooted biases against black people. Several articles which have been written about the issue have mentioned the problem we have in the UK with black women in corporate spaces, black women retaining their jobs in corporate spaces. And by that, I mean that one of the biggest issues facing the black female workforce in Britain is retention. In an article written by Yomi Adegoke, she mentions that a toxic combination of undermining and underrepresentation means many black women quit because before they're pushed out of a company, preferring to strike it out alone.

I mean, these are really important issues. We cannot separate her treatment by the tabloid press, how she's been represented, and so many of the stereotypes that are used to reinforce images of black women as being difficult, divisive, unsatisfied. You know, so many of these racial tropes are used to portray and label Meghan Markle as the media vilifies her. While Kate Middleton, the impact of that is to make her appear more virtuous, is to uplift her, represent her as an ideal type of womanhood

to which someone like Meghan Markle should aspire. I find that narrative deeply problematic. Well, I'm sure you won't. I don't want to interrupt you, Kenny, but we just want to squeeze in some other callers. A lot of people will agree. Yomi's book is called Slay in Your Lane, isn't it? She's a co-author of that book,

which I think a lot of people will be interested in reading. It's an interesting article as well, Yomi's, by the way, so seek it out. Let's go to Rachel in London. Hi, Rachel. I don't think she's there. Rachel, hi, good morning. Hello, can you hear me?

I can, yes. On you go. So, yes, I exchanged some tweets with you yesterday saying that I didn't think we should be having this phone in. I remember, go on. But actually, I think I've been really heartened by the calls that you've had. I agree with go on. But actually, I think I've been really heartened by the calls that you've had. I agree with the overwhelming majority of them. But my point was really around how the media

dictates what we think and what we prioritize as important. You know, we're 13 days into the decade. And this has become the story of the last five days. But we're not talking about Iran. We're not talking about climate change. We're not talking about the story of the last five days. But we're not talking about Iran. We're not talking about climate change. We're not talking about the restoration of the government in Northern Ireland. We're not talking about the Brexit debacle that's going on in our own parliament. And it just seems that, you know, everything, when everything is a crisis, nothing is a crisis. I know you made those points yesterday. And obviously, I'm really glad, by the way,

that you not only listened, but also called in. Rachel, you won't be the only person thinking that and indeed saying it. A lot of people will be mumbling, why are they talking about this? But I have to say, we've had a lot of calls this morning. So clearly, there's an appetite for this. 03700 100 444. Pauline is in Ormskirk. Hi, Pauline. Hello there. Hi. I think it's a good thing that they're going away, for themselves and for us. They will be happier there, I think.

It's been a pity that right from the start, after the marriage, it seemed to be a competition between the Sussexes and the Cambridges. Well, who's made it that? Who's made it a competition? Well, the media, quite rightly, but I think that some of Harry and Meghan's little tactics didn't help their cause. And then when they received criticism,

they railed against the British public, calling it racist and whatever, but I'm not going down that road because that's not what I'm interested in. But she wasn't really prepared to do the job that she was signed up for. And she just, they've not stuck at it long enough. Well, perhaps she wanted to do a job, but it wasn't the one they had in mind. She's an intelligent, capable woman. Quite, yes, exactly. But at the same time there are i know that we've

gone a long way from the 50s with um doffing caps to royalty and all of that but there are standards that's all i'm talking about courtesies and that sort of thing um and that just seems to have gone by the board i know you said earlier that young people are not interested in that. Well, I think in a way that's a pity because a lot of these discourtesies have been, have affected the Queen and I think it's a tragedy

that she should be in this situation she's in now at her age or indeed any age. Yeah, I think to be fair, Pauline, what I actually said was I don't think young people are interested in protocol. They're not bothered by the niceties. I'm sure they're interested in courtesy. I meet lots of courteous young people, she says carefully. Radhika

is one. Pauline, thank you very much. Radhika, what would you say to Pauline? Well, it's funny because I've been having this exact conversation with my mum all weekend. She's more on Pauline's side. I'm not, sorry. And I just, it seems like there's this idea of, know let's not upset the queen you know the poor queen the poor queen I'm a fan of the queen but at the same time you know we've

got to think that this is a young family they've got a baby and it you know it's got to a point where is it you know is it Archie versus the queen is it Megan and Harry and the baby versus the queen you know what it ultimately comes down to is should they, you know, just suck it up and force themselves to go through this abuse and this horrible experience they're living just to, you know, respect duty and protocol? Or should they ultimately make the right decision for them? And I think that the reason we all loved Meghan and Harry's union at the very start before it all got so bitter was because they did represent this breath of fresh air. And it was exciting and it felt like, oh, this is something new for the royal family. And ultimately, what it's just shown is that they're not ready for this breath of fresh air. Same old, same old. I think we'll leave the last word to Vicky, who's in Harrogate.

Hi, good morning, Vicky. Hi, good morning. So you have sympathy for Meghan. I do have a lot of sympathy. I won't repeat the comments of other people that have been supporting her. The comment I would like to make relates to the last caller talking about disrespecting the queen you know harry harry and megan haven't disrespected the queen there are plenty of royal people in the royal family at the moment who have and over the years have and they're not getting vilified in the press like megan is you know you i watched the queen's speech on on christmas day and the

first thing i noticed that there wasn't a picture of Harry and Meghan and Archie. Well, you know, my mum has pictures of all of her children. Yes, I mean, we should also say, of course, a number of people are pointing out on Twitter... This vilification of Meghan in the press is unacceptable. Right, OK. And the Prince Andrew factor is something that people have drawn attention to

and said, why so much vitriol directed at harry and megan when we know that there is another very significant royal story um well not just in the background in the foreground and it should be it should remain in the foreground um vicky thank you very much where do you i mean just out of interest radhika where do you think this is all going to go? And what do you want to happen? What I want to happen is for, you know, for this attack to end, for people to start, you know, letting Harry and Meghan go off and do what's right for them. What I think would be lovely would be if the royal family, you know, were able to, I suppose, compromise and let them have some space.

I'm not sure that's going to happen. I can see this going on for quite a long time and with the interest that we've seen today I can just see it continuing and this is a conversation we'll be having in months to come I'm very much glad indeed, that was almost English wasn't it Radhika Sangani, thank you for keeping me company this morning, our thanks as well to

Johnny Diamond who as I say just had to dash off I've been seeing him feature on any kind of, all my screens are just basically full of people discussing, the telly screens are on in the studio, full of people discussing the Royal Developments. And of course, there'll be coverage throughout the day here on Radio 4 and elsewhere on the BBC. Sorry to the callers we didn't get to. There was a lot of interest this morning and we're grateful to all of you. Radhika Sanghani, who was keeping me company in the Woman's Hour studio today, my thanks to her and indeed to the royal correspondent Johnny Diamond, who scampered off because he had other commitments across the BBC. Not that surprisingly today, it's a bit busy. I have to say there was a range of callers on air, of course,

largely the ones who came on air supportive of Harry and Meghan not entirely true for those who emailed the programme so let me just read a couple of emails this is from Jan I'm astonished that you're giving so much attention to this issue Harry, who we all love and adore, is sixth in line to the throne sixth if he and Meghan were to pull out of all their royal commitments

what's the big deal? So actually, to be fair to Jan, she's pretty sympathetic. For goodness sake, have the press got nothing better to focus on? Obviously not. Let Harry and Meghan go with our blessing and we wish them well for a new life in Canada. Yes, Jan, that's a view. But then, of course, other people are raising the subject of whether they'll keep their titles, how they'll make their money, whether we as British taxpayers will still be expected to stump up for their security. There is quite a lot to think about here. They are not an ordinary couple. And Alex says, I thought Meghan would be trouble from the start.

I thought she'd proved to be self-obsessed, attention seeking, spoilt, indulged, deluded, dishonest, scheming and divisive. And so it's proven to be. Well, Alex is certainly not on the fence, is she? She's treating the royal family like her toy, like her script. Know what, Megan? Just go. Leave your royal title behind. Oh, and a cheque for the two million quid of that money we splashed out on renovating Frogmore.

So, as I say, a range of opinions. Here's another interesting email from Zoe. I've got a couple of points, she says. I think the criticism of Meghan is similar in some ways to criticism of the state of Israel. There is racism, which is despicable, and then there's also valid criticism. And sometimes people seek to discredit the valid criticism by claiming it's racist. I think it's hypocritical, for example, to talk about green initiatives, then take several flights over a two-week period.

But Meghan is a talented and a warm orator, and it's a shame that this skill wasn't harnessed more by the royal family. Johnny Diamond's comment that Harry was, quotes, visibly bored by the ceremonial frustrated me and the whole sense of woe is them. If I had a job where I had to open things and was cheered and fawned over and that meant a house was given to me,

then renovated to my taste for over two million quid, then I had a seven-week holiday for Christmas, I know I could put up with the ceremonial. And let's just have one more. I'm surprised that no one seems to have focused on the mental health issue. The young royals have campaigned for mental health for a number of years. I'm bewildered that Meghan and Harry are now not allowed to look after their own mental health. And yes, there were plenty of people saying, haven't you got anything more important to talk about? about well I have to say we've had a lot of calls and a lot of comments today

including that comment but it's clear that there is an appetite for further discussion on this issue we are never going to satisfy everybody tomorrow on the programme we're going to look at under 18s access to cosmetic surgery I think this is really interesting this is because a listener contacted the programme

concerned about the way places like this are regulated after her daughter, who's only 17, has accessed more than 20 clinics for around 30 procedures without ever being asked to prove her age. So that's on Woman's Hour tomorrow. Contact the programme if you like, of course, wherever you like, whenever you like, at BBC Woman's Hour on Twitter and Instagram, or you can email the programme via the website. Henry Akeley disappeared from his home on the edge of Rendlesham Forest somewhere around the end of June 2019. They come every night now. The police don't believe me. Please, I just need you to get in touch. What we uncovered is a mystery that has sent us deep into England's past. To an area steeped in witchcraft, the occult, secret government operations.

Now we have multiple sites of five lights with a similar shape property. And something that might indeed be altogether otherworldly. This is The Whisperer in Darkness. Available now on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

Available now.