Woman's Hour - Phone-In: School Transitions

Episode Date: July 8, 2019

Today’s we’re looking at an important milestone in a child’s life: when they move up from primary to secondary school. Can you remember how it felt? Do you have a child who is in year 6, leaving primary school or a child who is just completing their first year of secondary school. Is your Year 6 child excited and ready to go? How do you feel about them going to “big” school? Do you think your child will manage? What, if anything, are you doing to prepare them? We want to hear from you. Please do get in touch with your experiences and questions. Phone lines are open from 0800 on Monday 8 July. Call 03700 100 444. You can email now via the 'Woman's Hour Website.Presenter: Jane Garvey Interviewed guest: Emma Kell Producer: Lucinda Montefiore

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey. Welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. It's the 8th of July 2019. And today's programme, which you're about to hear, with additional material at the end, is all about that, well, what can be in some cases, not every case, a little bit of an emotional and occasionally challenging change in circumstances when you skip out of primary school and then have to reinvent yourself in the September or the August, depending on whereabouts you live, of course, to go to secondary school. And there's a lot of high

emotion these days associated with leaving your first school. And it can be just as traumatic, if not more, for the parents. And we have at least one very funny phone call from a mum who wept buckets and then ended up trailing to school with a load of biscuits. Anyway, she learned her lesson and stopped doing it two weeks into her daughter's secondary school education. So plenty of life's rich tapestry in the calls. And then Emma Kell is here.

She's a teacher. She's a parent. She's the author of How to Survive in Teaching. And she's also in the process of compiling How to Survive Secondary School. So Emma, you're our woman. Good morning to you. Good morning, Jane. Now, we should say, of course, Scottish schools are already well into the summer holidays, and so this will already have been achieved in Scotland. So we welcome your input as well, of course. 03700 100444. Tell us about your own children, Emma. You've already been through one move to secondary, haven't you?

Yes, I have. So my eldest is just reaching the end of year seven now. And it seems like about a million years ago since she was innocently doing cartwheels across the common and talking about unicorns at the end of year six. Now she's got a phone. And now, oh, absolutely. She's got a phone, inescapable social media at all times, and a phone and an attitude. Yes. Yeah. I'm not quite sure what comes first, actually. Yes.

And how was that for you and for her? What was it like planning the move from primary to secondary? Well, I think with 21 years in the classroom, I'm fairly down to earth and fairly relaxed about these things. We've sort of seen it all before. But when it's your own child, it's very, very different. So we found that her anxiety towards the end of year six was growing and growing and growing. And it wasn't about the work or wasn't about getting lost, that whole myth about children getting lost. Children don't get lost in schools. Adults do. Can I just say I did get lost? Did you? i do remember that but carry on okay well they usually get over it over a couple of days after a couple of days um whereas in my case i still can't find my way to t8 three years in

um but her main anxieties of course were about friendships the friendships the relationships was her she's always been very much someone with the best friend despite my constant urges to have a range of different friends and it was those changing friendships that absolutely terrified her to the point where towards the end she was threatening to set up a tent outside school and refused to leave. This is outside her primary? Outside her primary. In her case were people going with her to the same secondary? Yes about half of them were going to the same secondary. Yes, yes. But they all, they often do. Secondaries tend to deliberately separate children. So there's no guarantee that they'll be together.

I think they're together. There's one other person from their primary in the same class. And I should say there's nothing wrong at all with expressing emotion. But do you think those end of primary school assemblies and rituals are a bit over the top now? My instinct says yes. my instinct says yes. But I was there, I was assured I would need to take the whole day off because it involved a church service, then an assembly, then an afternoon in the pub, and then a disco, and then a slideshow. And it was just, it was crying. It was whole time I must admit I didn't cry I didn't cry because my attitude was very much well nobody's died they're just growing up um so so yes

I mean I can be a bit of a cynic but I I must admit I did find it a little bit over the top and you do get in some primaries now the pink limousine and the full prom dress and this is a primary school primary schools yeah yeah not not my, I should add, which was very down to earth and very moving. But some, yeah, some primaries are doing the full prom makeup and hair. Right. If you've got any thoughts on any of this, you can take part on social media as well,

at BBC Women's Hour. We want your calls though, 03700 100 444. We thought we'd start with just the thoughts of some children who are about to go from primary to secondary school. They are currently pupils at primary schools in Chorlton and Darwin. My biggest worries about year seven is just like older children teasing you or picking on you and maybe like homework as well. I'm in year six and I feel like in year seven I expect there'll a efallai hefyd y gwaith ymdrin. Rwyf yn ystod 6 ac rwy'n teimlo bod ystod 7, bydd llawer o bobl fwyaf na chi

ac mae'n mynd i fod llawer mwy o bobl. Efallai ydw i'n ymwneud â'r ffordd y mae'r 8au, y 9au a'r 10au yn ymwneud â hynny. Mae gen i lawer o gyfrifoldeb. Rwy'n rhaid gwod y 10 oed ac yn ystod y 10 oed ac yn ystod y 10 oed ac yn ystod y 10 oed ac yn ystod y 10 oed ac yn ystod y 10 oed ac yn ystod y 10 oed ac yn ystod y 10 oed ac yn ystod y 10 oed ac yn ystod y 10 oed ac yn ystod y 10 oed ac yn ystod y 10 oed ac yn ystod y 10 oed ac yn ystod y 10 oed ac yn ystod y 10 oed ac yn ystod y 10 oed ac yn ystod y 10 oed ac yn ystod y 10 oed ac yn ystod y 10 oed ac yn ystod y 10 oed ac yn ystod y 10 oed ac yn ystod y 10 oed ac yn ystod y 10 oed ac yn ystod y 10 oed ac yn ystod y 10 oed ac yn ystod y 10 oed ac yn ystod y 10 oed ac yn ystod y 10 oed ac yn ystod y 10 oed ac yn ystod y 10 oed ac yn ystod y 10 oed ac yn ystod y 10 oed ac yn ystod y 10 oed ac yn ystod y 10 oed ac yn ystod y 10 oed ac yn ystod y 10 oed ac yn ystod y 10 oed ac yn ystod y 10 oed ac yn ystod y 10 oed ac yn ystod y 10 oed ac yn ystod y 10 oed ac yn ystod y 10 oed ac yn ystod y 10 oed ac yn ystod y 10 oed ac yn ystod y 10 oed ac yn ystod y 10 oed acau ffrindiau hynny ac yn cael ffrindiau tocsig. Ac efallai bod gen i rhai problemau gyda'r cymdeithas cymdeithasol. Ac ie dyna'r peth. Wel yn amlwg rwy'n anodd am y ddynion oherwydd mae llawer o ddynion gwahanol. Rwy'n amlwg, mae gen i ddyn gwych nawr ond

oherwydd y probabilrwydd, mae'n debyg y byddai'n mynd i fod yn ddyn right now but like there's a probability there's probably going to be a teacher that I might not like and stuff so I'm kind of nervous about all the different classes I don't really want to leave primary school because like I've known this place for a long time and it feels like this is my school that's it isn't it are, by the time year six or I think it's P7 in Northern Ireland and Scotland rolls round, you're very much the cock of the walk. You know the place inside and out, don't you?

And it's a hell of a wrench. Yeah, and primaries are absolutely brilliant at that, aren't they? They gradually get more responsibility as they go up and the year sixes are in charge of playground patrol and looking after the younger kids and they really are the big fish and to go from being the tiny fish in schools which you know 1200 1200 students huge corridors everything else is is absolutely huge let's bring in uh kate hi kate hello jane hello now tell me um what what happened in your case it's all about the emotion or in your

day it was the lack of it yeah i think so um it's just i heard the introduction to the show in fact i heard you post advertise it last week oh that sounds interesting and you're saying oh how emotional it was and all the videos and the assemblies and quite honestly in my little school in my little primary school in birmingham um i don't think i even knew that i was not going back. Honestly, I just think it was another day. And yeah, I just don't remember anything like that. Maybe I don't remember it, but I do have vivid memories of school. I loved school. And yeah, it just struck me how different things must be. That's what it's like now. And that's what it was like when I was at school.

Do you honestly think we're doing it worse then these days? It is just too OTT and ridiculous? Well, I have to say, that thought does occur to me. I think, well, what's the big fuss? I think, well, no, that's just because I happen to have that experience. Why shouldn't they do it this way? And it's just the whole thing, the sort of problems

they have these problems and big things and stuff, which, again, didn't happen certainly where I was at school. Kate thank you um Kitty on social media she's on Twitter actually says my year six leaving mass involved a horde of sobbing 11 year olds handing out roses to their mothers 15 years later and my own mother is still somewhat traumatized at BBC Woman's Hour if you want to take part on social media Mary Mary is in West London. Hi Mary, good morning to you. Good morning.

So, do you work with schools? I work with schools, yes. I work with schools and sometimes in the area of transition, sometimes more generally with foreign tutors. So, yes, I've heard lots of stories over time.

What kind of stories? Well stories I think that the kids were alluding to there, you know, what's going on, big school I'm going to big school and the whole idea of oh it's all going to be so different and how am I going to fit in, what's it going to be like

and that whole idea think of, you know, the year 8 the year 9 kids, am I going to have friends? How will I get to school? What about if I get lost? Yes. Yeah. I mean, particularly in London,

you'll know this, Mary, children do have to travel. I mean, my own kids, bus, tube, that's when they can't catch a lift, I should say. I mean, it is, it's quite a trip, literally. Yes, it can be. And I suppose that's a thing

that I have found listening to the children and the teachers, the porn tutors. Take the journey a couple of times if you can so that you do know where you're going, you do know what the place looks like and you've tried to do it in the morning. Excepted in September, it may be a little bit busy because you'll all now be travelling to that school.

But just to give it a go so you know where you're going so there's not the fear of the unknown. Do you advise that Emma then take take the journey a couple of times before you have to do it for real? Yeah absolutely a couple of times is a good idea and some many secondaries in fact will have one day when it's just the year sevens on their own and even have a practice of the journey at the end of year six or year seven into year eight if you're in a different system. Yes but but just once or twice i think it's quite important these children actually get a break over summer as well and get some time not to not to think about it not to fret about it and to enjoy that downtime yes i think that is sensible you don't want to be practicing the trip every single day of the school holidays and also it doesn't actually prepare you because

the school bus in September is rammed. I don't know how much they pay bus drivers driving school buses, but I'm sure it's not enough because that must be one of the most stressful jobs in Britain. Oh, yeah, absolutely. And it's less about what we remember from school buses, the bullies at the back and everything else. It's more about the lost mobile phones and the lost bus passes. And can I bring my friend back? And oh, yeah, I don't envy that job one bit. No. Eleanor says in Lewis, we have a hashtag moving on 2019. It's an annual moving on parade. All the local schools year sixes make costumes with local artists and parade around the streets,

lined with parents and onlookers cheering them on to the next stage. It's absolutely gorgeous. Well, that sounds a really good idea. Very positive. Let's go to Stoke. Hi, Jane. How are you? Hello, Jane. I'm good. Thank you. Now, tell me, you are a former transitions coordinator. That's correct. I've been retired for eight years now. But I was the transition coordinator in a large comprehensive in East London. And we started or I started my job in the preceding September because you need to have familiarity for those young people coming into your school and most importantly to get the parents on side if I say if I may say um some parents

are very keen for the children to move on to your school. All schools have a reputation, so some parents are less keen. We had a large Asian community in the area, so many of the girls were hoping to go to the single-sex schools, which, of course, were oversubscribed, so didn't get in. So that sometimes could be an issue. So can I just pick you up there? So sometimes there's a negativity even before the school has started. Definitely.

How do you combat that? I think through personality and raising the profile by myself being in the school. I would take ex-students back to the school. I would speak to have parents meetings. We'd have parents meetings at my school um for several years this was a hard job but for several years we had a full week on a timetable where we brought the children in who were going to be in year seven and they ran that week as year seven students and that was a very worthwhile experience and at the end of it we would have a parents meeting and anything that had been discussed at home, obviously we could deal with it if it came up.

90% of the issues were, will my child be bullied? Really? Yeah. Yes. The fear that they might be. And can I ask, do you think, let's say a parent had a negative experience themselves at secondary school, what should you do if that was you? Should you ever tell your child that

or should you just try and pack it away and be positive? I think you should pack it away and be positive, but obviously not all parents do that. I mean, I personally didn't have a very... I went to a girls' grammar school back in the day in Kent and I didn't have a very good experience in secondary school myself. Lovely primary school, go into this secondary school

and it was just for me a nightmare and I've you know I think the nurture in the secondary school is still important and many parents feel that that is missing and let's be honest they're taught by perhaps 10 or 12 different teachers yeah so some teachers do not have that nurture feeling for the young people no can I just ask you about that, Emma? Because thank you very much, Jane. I really appreciate that. That's Jane who worked as a transitions coordinator.

One of the young lads in our little vox pop of pupils there talked about the number of teachers he was going to have. And you're used to often just having one teacher for the whole year and then you've got about 12 of them. You don't always like all of them and they might not get you either what do you do about that well the other thing to remember of course is we are in a teacher crisis so a lot of schools are struggling to recruit um high quality teachers across the board um i i think um like everything my daughter was extremely anxious about this as well the different personalities and would she be picked on and would she get into

trouble with some teachers um i think it's just life, isn't it? You have to get used to working with all sorts of different types of people and the vast majority of the teachers she works with have been fantastic. They've been great and getting used to actually different teachers with different quirks and different foibles in different classrooms and different limits and different boundaries and different senses of humour has actually really helped her to grow as a person, actually In terms of size secondary schools can be really big I know the one you teach at has got what 1200 people? About 1200 yeah. And this is this is in Tottenham in London

it's a big place can you honestly know every child's story and every child's struggle you can't can you? I think you can. I think you can. If you try. Absolutely, if you try. I mean, I'm really proud to work in such a nurturing school which places pastoral support absolutely above all else. And getting to know those students with those structured and quality transition activities,

sending people into those primary schools to do those taster lessons. I still have students in year 11 who remember the taster lesson I gave them on French animals when they were in year five. So those little links, which don't cost much, just take a little bit of extra thought, are really, really important. It's also really important for the schools to make sure they've got the right paperwork from the primaries, meet with those primary teachers. The form tutor is absolutely crucial. So the form tutor is the person your child will meet at the beginning and sometimes the end of every single day. So I would say without making a big deal out of it

in front of your child, because obviously everything you do is embarrassing from the age of 11. I would say get to know that form tutor, get to know those key people. Okay. And can you as a parent email that form tutor and get to make a connection with them without your child knowing? Yeah, you can. You can. There's also a meet the tutor evening almost certainly at the beginning of every year. So get along to that if you can. But it's difficult, isn't it? Because you go from primary where you're greeted every morning and every afternoon by name, by the teacher, you know, everybody, you know, every parent, you know, every family.

And then you go to secondary and it's a lot harder. It's a lot more anonymous. I couldn't name my daughter's science teacher off the top of my head. You know, it's very, very different. But I would say that if you're concerned about something as a parent or your child's expressed a concern, don't hesitate from contacting the school. You don't need to be in there every single day. But, you know, you've got instinct. If you're worried about something, if your child says something or is losing sleep over something, just drop a line to the form tutor possibly the head of year head of year has a bit more time depending on the seriousness of of the issue and they and in my experience um it might take a couple

of days because these people teach but but people will get back to you um and just keep those lines of communication open and if you don't get the response you're hoping for go in make an appointment go in in person and and have that chat oh three seven hundred one hundred four four four if you want to call us on social media at bbc woman's out brian he says my son's just finished primary in france nothing organized officially here at all and many people just go on holiday before the end of term but the children write their names on each other's arms. Most are going to the same secondary school as the system is based on a dress, says Bryony. Claire, women are talking about primary transition. Adopted children are even more vulnerable.

The transition can echo earlier traumatic changes in their lives and they're far more likely to be excluded as a result. Schools and parents need to think about how to support them through it. Yes, I imagine that can be really difficult. And Jacqueline, I'm in my late 50s, I haven't got any kids and I haven't got a clue what year 7, 8, 9 and 10 is. What was wrong with the first, second and third year? It's all gone American, she says.

And don't get me started on proms. I think we know where Jacqueline's coming from. Larissa, Larissa, good morning to you. Hi, good morning. Now, you have a particular, well, your child has special educational needs. Yes. So I've got a son who's got learning difficulties. He's undiagnosed. And but his main issue is he can't speak. He's nonverbal. So he goes to a special school at the minute. It's a private school that focuses mostly on communication, signing, learning, obviously, with a lot of visuals.

And he's coming to an end. He's in year five at the minute. We've got one year left. And as a family, we have already looked at 14 different schools for him to transition to, none of which we feel are appropriate. And those, just to give you an idea, were within a 90-mile radius. And it's just a really depressing scenario for children with learning difficulties with special needs who don't fit into, you know, a nice mainstream bracket. So I understand. I've got another daughter who is mainstream. She's a little bit younger. I understand that the transition you know is probably is quite terrifying for children going on from year six to seven but for um vulnerable child uh with learning learning difficulties and communication um issues it's it's just hell and it's hell for the parents and i imagine it's

hell for the children um unless there's a good sort of transition in place. Can I just stop you just for one second, just because I've got an email I want to bring in as well, which might well resonate with you. It's from a listener. Actually, we don't need to mention her name. She says our son is on the Asperger's spectrum, but he has coped with primary school extremely well. Then he moved to secondary school and had to cope with constantly changing classrooms every 40 minutes, a two-week timetable, more than a dozen teachers, noisy corridors, a mix of very different children, different discipline expectations in each class

and a constantly changing landscape of teachers, assemblies, homework at weekends, subjects he'd never heard of. After a week, he got very upset and started experiencing a lot of, you know, sore tummies and sickness. And every Sunday night became a walking on eggs experience. There is an upside because I'm conscious it's been a bit gloomy. It was a tough year, says the listener. And I do think it's a shame we weren't made aware of the potential difficulties.

But looking back, we should probably have expected some of them. One year on and the second year of secondary school has been so much better teachers amazingly supportive and encouraging so there we go um thank you for that for that listener who's actually in in belfast so she'll know who she is um obviously larissa it sounds as though you are aware of the potential pitfalls but your basic problem is you can't find a school suitable yes that's correct yeah so it's um yeah it's just a bit of a stretch i think um obviously it helps if you've got a diagnosis like autism or um asperger's i think you can probably understand a little bit better about what um what's coming or what you you know, like-minded individuals and that sort of cohort or group of diagnoses will experience.

But it's just a little bit trickier with a child who is undiagnosed and also just the lack of schools around that can, you know, meet the need. Emma, what would you say about that? Well, my heart goes out to you, to be honest. I mean, I always think think there but for the Grace when it comes to any kind of special needs it's extremely challenging I've got a close friend with a daughter with

relatively recently diagnosed autism and another close friend who's a SENCO and I think the advice and I think you probably understand this one is to be the most difficult parent possible is just demand stamp, stamp stamp clap make sure you get you get the right provision for your child i mean i'm sure you know i don't want to um

lecture you on what you've already done but i'm sure you've already been into the schools and met the special needs coordinators and been to the special needs spaces because even if the child is undiagnosed it's really important to remember that a teacher has a duty of care to every single child in that classroom regardless of their unique needs their unique potential and actually if we're not meeting those needs we're failing as teachers I think that's really important you know I write a lot about teacher well-being but actually teacher accountability is the most important thing of all so a good school or an outstanding school or whatever Ofsted label you put on it really should be catering to the needs of every single child. But in the end, I'd say it's all about the relationships, meeting the people, trusting your instincts, going in, actually being very honest. I'm sure you have been, but being very honest and open about your concerns and trying to strike up some bonds with people within that horrific 90-mile radius.

It sounds like a nightmare. Best of luck, Larissa, because it's a tough one. Can I just ask, how much of this is your son aware of? Is he concerned? He is. I mean, he's high anxiety, but he is aware that he's going to be moving. And he has come with me to view a number of the schools and has had anxiety there. But nothing has been a right fit.

And I think that's probably one of the reasons for it being more difficult. Sure. Well, a lot of people I know will be hugely sympathetic and going through similar experiences. Larissa, thank you very much. 03700 100 444. You can email the programme, of course, as well via the website. And if we haven't got time to read them on air now, we'll put them into the Woman's Hour podcast available later. One of the young boys we featured earlier, Emma, talked about, worried about bullying. And we know that it's one of the main concerns that parents have.

Is there any way you can make your child bully-proof? Schools are... I may have been lucky, but I've taught in about nine different schools now. Schools are very, very hot on bullying these days. And I know I'm a teacher and I would say that, but actually in the vast majority of cases where I've worked and young people I've known, schools are very, very good at picking up on the signs,

at acting very quickly when there are signs that a child is being bullied. The other thing is that young people are very good at picking up on signs in their friends and actually standing up for them and making sure that somebody knows about it. Now, that's not to be completely naive about it. Of course, bullying happens. Of course, children attempt to bully other children. It will happen. And you can teach your child a number of strategies, ideally not involving punching them straight back again. But you can teach your child a number of strategies in terms of, for example, you know, that anyone attempting to bully you wants some kind of reaction. So the best thing you can do is not give them a reaction at all. Don't give them the airtime. don't give them the air time don't give them the oxygen um the other conversation i have quite a lot with my daughter is if someone's bullying you they've probably got huge issues of their own and actually it's i mean i've we've all trotted out that line i'm not sure that helps in the moment no no it doesn't and often actually as a parent you know none of us know it all do we but that you're the best thing you can say is just walk away and you know it's not an answer it's a little bit of a sticking plaster but it's about those children surrounding themselves with

people they do trust people they can talk to and do talk to an adult because actually secondary school teachers have seen most things they're pretty unshockable um and and do speak to someone or if you don't feel you can then get a friend to speak to someone i think also i mean we've got um we're quite i'm quite old, but the days are great. You already said we're quite old. I know, I said I am. I can knife through the heart. Carry on. But the days of heads down the toilets are long gone.

Are they? Well, toilets, we started on toilets. So when we think about the kinds of things that young people are worried about in schools, it's often it's not the teachers, it's not the work, it's the little things, it's the food, it's the toilets, it's the corridors, it's the bus that we talked about earlier. And school toilets have been very high on the agenda in the last 10 years or so. And what schools have done in the vast majority of cases now is made toilets very open plan, very open, very airy. So actually the bullying can't happen physically, geographically can't happen. I spent a year on duty outside the toilets as a teacher,

so there will always be someone stationed just outside the toilets. Glad to hear it. Neil in North Wales. Hi, Neil. Good morning. How are you? Very well, thanks. Now, you've got twins. Yes. I don't know why, whenever I think of twins, I just can't imagine what that might have been like. But anyway, they are about to move to secondary.

They are, yeah. Two girls. And they're really looking forward to it. But are they going to be split up? Well, no. The reason I phoned this morning was that we were asked by the secondary school whether we wanted them to be split up or not. And as a sort of a matter of policy or something and I'd never heard of that before. So we said no, not really.

I mean, if they naturally go their separate ways doing different things, that's fine. But to deliberately make a point of separating them, we said no, thank you. So I don't think that's going to happen. I'd never heard of it before. No, you're a teacher yourself, Neil. I do. I teach.

Part of my work is teaching. I'm paraphrasing. I teach music. So I see a lot of primary schools, and I talk to a lot of teachers, so it was interesting. That's why I phoned this morning, really, to see whether I could speak about it. Yeah, no, it's really interesting, Neil.

Thank you very much. What do you think about about that Emma? Should twins be split up routinely? Yeah in the majority of cases schools do split twins up I have to be honest it's not something I've ever given an awful lot of thought to a bit like you I thought of having twins but yes a lot of schools do quite deliberately separate twins. And I think it's all about that building your identity, that age at which you're finding your identity, you're finding your friends. But I think it's great that this particular school has given the parents the choice. Les, thank you very much.

Les is in York. Hi, Les. Hiya, thank you. Go on. I think for the first year, it's a new school for younger children. They should be given a suitable mentor, you know, a senior pupil.

And I think this mentoring could also go to the senior person's exam grades. Just to give employers their indication that they're good at people skills and they're very considerate and caring. That's a brilliant idea. Emma, what about that? Yeah, I've seen this work absolutely brilliantly. Now, we know that schools fundings are being cut left, right and centre, but actually this doesn't cost anything at all. And whatever you call it, buddying, mentoring, coaching by older students is an absolutely brilliant model if it's effectively run within the school and effectively coordinated. And Les's idea that actually it could count towards your grades because people skills are, well, they're going to be even more important in the future, surely. If you can get on with

people at the age of 15, 16, how brilliant is that? Well, I would thoroughly embrace that as a sort of antidote to the current exam system, yes. This isn't a phone-in about the current exam system. That could be a different phone-in, I'm sure we'd be happy to do. It could indeed. Les, thank you for that. Zelda in Suffolk. Good morning to you, Zelda.

Hello, good morning. Have you got a big idea like Les? Well, not really, but I just wanted to report on a fantastic secondary school my daughter's going to in September. They've worked really hard at getting that transition from primary to secondary as smooth as possible.

And they invented Saturday morning workshops, which are slightly controversial, because obviously staff are asked to go in if they want to. But for the students, they go in three, four times from the year from January onwards and they do workshops in the morning with the other tutor groups that they'll be with from September.

It just means they get used to that cohort and they get used to being in the school and used to the teachers and it just makes that transition really smooth. Yeah, and as a parent, I love the idea, but you should have seen Emma's face when you mentioned the teachers having to go in on a Saturday. I know, I was once a full-time teacher

and the idea of going in on a Saturday, it filled me with horror. But as a parent of a student going in, she absolutely loved it and got to do things like art and cookery and drama. And I must say, the teachers are asked if they want to go in it it's uh it's a voluntary thing so i suppose if they don't go in those those subjects are not offered so a really lovely transition and there are lots of parents evenings we've been to one recently about safeguarding and uh you know they really get get you involved but i think it was the new head that listened to the parents who said, you know, we're not getting in as much. That whole thing of primary being a very different set up and the parents feeling slightly excluded.

And he really went to town in getting us in and getting the parents involved and the students. Emma? Yeah. No, no. And I actually, I do think, I do, as a parent, I think it's brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. And if teachers are doing it voluntarily, that's great. Because for those young people, it's all about getting to know. It's all about the relationships, isn't it? It's all about getting to know who they're going to be around every single day. And even if they've just got to know three or four people

who are going to be in their form group or their French class, that can alleviate so much of that anxiety and that stress. Her cohort is a very big cohort. It's 250, so it's not a small cohort. And from going from a school where that's the total of the whole school to one year group in that amount of students, yeah, it can be daunting. And the other thing I was going to say is as a parent,

we had my daughter's joint 12th birthday party yesterday and the parents almost just fell on each other because we'd never met before. We'd actually never met before. and you go from knowing every single family that your child associates with through primary school every single detail about their pets and their eating habits and everything else to to literally not having a clue where your child's going so they say i'm going to meet a friend well where where are you going and and so these pair all of us just fell on each other it's so nice to meet you it's so nice and. And so the fact that the school is actually...

Facilitating that. I do think that's important because when the kids start going out independently and you don't know where they're going or who with, it's vital you've got the numbers of the other parents, isn't it? Absolutely. Do you think that, Zelda? Yes, absolutely. And I know from speaking to the head, because he's my ex-head of faculty,

he's now the head of the school, that social media and that part to play in when they go up is huge. So very much so the parents are being involved in some cases in not very salubrious circumstances, but they are getting to know the parents in different

ways, I suppose. So, yes, having a more friendly meeting up with parents outside of school is a lot more beneficial than having to go in if there's a problem. Zelda, thank you. Appreciate that. Suzanne has emailed to say, in the 50s, leaving to go to the secondary modern,

I remember constantly being told, you'll find it hard at the big school. Well, as a result, I was terrified walking there. And I remember a smell which made me feel sick. It was a real while before I settled there. Left school at 15, started a job on the Monday with absolutely no fanfare. As for a prom, you must be joking, says Suzanne. Yeah, I mean, things have changed.

I mean, listen, I'm with you because I'm an old, I was going to say fart, but we don't say that on Radio 4. But it does sound as though things are so much more out there there's so much more emotion around these days um Tony I think Tony you're you're in Somerset and you're a fan of the middle school system hi there yeah um I'm in Froome in Somerset right and I was really happy to find that there was a middle school system here we've only recently recently moved here. But I had a real horror story when I transitioned from age 11 with 200 pupils around me to a really rough comprehensive with 1,700 pupils around me. And actually, a fair number of those pupils needed to shave,

so I wouldn't really call them kids. I would call them men. And it was quite terrifying. But what I love about the middle school system is when I stand at the school gate and all of the kids come out, they're all unequivocally that. They're all kids. And it means that my boy has got a couple of extra years to transition to the idea of hanging around with far older kids when he does eventually end up in a secondary school. It feels like a really natural transition and progression. It feels like he has that level of maturity that will enable him to cope with those changes and with those, you know, those big people that are going to be around him. Yes, I think you make a good point. I sometimes, if I am, if I have been cajoled into driving my child to school, which to my shame I do do occasionally, you see everybody on their way to school first thing in the morning and there are these lads. They are men absurdly shoehorned into ill-fitting school uniform. They're just enormous. into the secondary school system, they'll all be better equipped, they'll all have social groupings that they've managed to maintain through the middle school system, and it just feels like a better age for transition. Yeah, thank you very much. I appreciate that, Tony.

What do you think about that, Emma? Middle schools, they're not very common in Britain, are they? No, they're not. What struck me about Tony's comments was the reference to play, because that year seven, year eight age group is really interesting. They're in between, they're neither child nor adult, are they? And I find myself one minute confiscating slime, and the next minute telling them off for some crude sexual reference, and they're in this strange little world. But I do find that actually,

when they don't know you're looking at this kind of age, 11, 12, 13, they do. They do love to play. And I love the fact that those middle schools give them the opportunity to stay children. And even those big men with moustaches shoehorned into school uniform that you refer to, I still refer to them as children because they are. They're in their spare time. They're like Labrador puppies. I do. I do speak from the perspective of someone who was very small when I went to really small when I went to second school you know the NHS specs and all the rest of it and and I I felt frankly I felt somewhat vulnerable um what do you do if your child is perhaps actually um relatively immature when they make that transition physically is there anything you can do I mean I think it's

important to bear in mind that teachers have seen all sorts. So if you see a year seven form group, I don't know if anyone's seen one recently, you have the tiniest, tiniest little people who could be sort of seven or eight. And then you have people who are four or five inches taller than me. So maybe just encouraging that play. I mean, we do a lot. I'm a French teacher as well as an English teacher. We do a lot of playing, a lot of of playing a lot of games in the classroom so teachers encouraging the play parents encouraging the play and accepting that you'll get the swings one minute wanting to do hide and seek in the next

minute being miserable but encouraging the play nothing wrong with a bit of the odd mood swing is inevitable and and encouraged um jane hi jane in South London. How are you? A former head of year seven. Hello. Morning. So tell us. Thank you. Tell us about your experience. I just rang in to say something maybe slightly different to some of the other people. Although I did hear, I just heard the email from the lady who said her junior school terrified her of going up to big school.

Yeah. And she remained terrified. I'm a secondary school teacher myself i've been ahead of year seven um and i had two children transfer from junior to secondary not to the school that i teach at and i was quite aware that in the last six months or so of junior school they tended to spend quite a lot of time sort of taking to the children oh well you know you wouldn't get away with that at secondary school and or you'll have to behave a bit better than that at secondary school. And sometimes my kids would come home and say, they said today at school that at secondary school, this would happen if we did, you know, and I'd say,

listen, you know that's not right. That can't possibly be right. And I think that sometimes it's almost used a little bit of discipline for schools as they get the year sixes that are ready to spread their wings a bit more. You know, the big threat is, oh, wait till you go to secondary school. And I really felt for not only my own kids, but, you know, other children in the class who were told these stories of the scary secondary school. And mine were luckier than most because they had a mum who worked in secondary schools for years and kind of, you know, could say, but but you know, half of my work colleagues, you know, you know, they're not like that. Yes. OK. Thank you, Jane. Catherine. Hi, Catherine. Good morning.

Oh, hello, Jane. Now, you were one of the weepers. Is that right? Oh, God, I cried absolute buckets when they left primary school. I loved it. I loved it so so much they were so well looked after but anyway um but i always used to take them to school and pick them up from school in primary school so when they went to secondary school i just carried on doing pretty much the same thing for the first couple of weeks um where i thought oh this is great i'm terribly popular with everybody because i came arrived bearing all sorts of goodies for them to eat on the way home

and uh after after a while i suddenly realized that my daughter was in front of me with all her friends laughing and giggling away and my son was behind me with all his mates mucking around and I suddenly realised I was just walking by myself. Mummy no mate, basically. So did you end up with the biscuits on your own or did they eat the biscuits? Oh, no, no, no. They took all the treats from me.

I just walked along by myself, sort of like, well, effectively twiddling my thumbs. Oh, dear. That does paint a very tragic image, Catherine, I have to say. Well, it was fine. I just gave up after a while. You took the hint and packed it in. Yeah, yeah.

I think it lasted two weeks. Yeah. But, you know, to me, they were still they were still you know little kids but it was that thing we went through the whole mobile phone battle as well where they'd been so desperate and I kept my foot firmly on the ground saying no you're not having a mobile phone until you go to secondary school um and actually that's that's what what I did for my own reassurance, was I got a phone each, which, you know, kept everybody happy. I mean, I'm not criticising you in any way, because I did exactly the same thing. But when you say things like for reassurance, I mean, I obviously got through school without

a mobile phone. It is possible, but we just all play the game don't we yeah of course we do well they play us don't they yeah well that's a very good point Catherine thank you Emma briefly on phones everybody's got one we're addicted to ours

we can't be surprised that our children can't take their eyes off theirs any thoughts anything you could say that might be helpful well I rely on mine for reassurance as well my daughter having one so i know where she is and where she's going to be and and rightly or wrongly you know as you say jane we're all completely addicted to our phones so we'd be complete hypocrites to to to try to i don't know impose something on them that we don't do ourselves

the one thing about mobile phones i'd say is that the the social um sociable element of their lives is totally inescapable. So it's constant. And if you can put some measures on to actually limit the time they're on their phone, that's brilliant. Because whatever gossip is going on in school, you know, we used to go have to go upstairs and take the extension of the phone with the cord. But if you were lucky enough to have an extension, if you were lucky, I remember getting that. Yes. But for them, it's utterly inescapable and utterly exhausting. So if their friend's having a crisis, they can't wait till the next morning.

The texts are coming in at 3 a.m. unless you can actually put some measures in place. One other thing I'd say about phones, though, is we're not naturally organized family. We both work, my husband and I, and everything's slightly chaotic all of the time. But we've got all sorts of apps which we organize our lives with. So we've got a family calendar and a family to-do list. And it is brilliant to get that sort of alarm reminder to make the packed lunch for Sports Day tomorrow. It has saved my children from starvation on several occasions. So technology can be wonderful.

This is from an email from a listener who says, How did I ever survive high school in the 70s? Just sent through the door with my school bag and I left seven years later. Yes, that was how things were done in the old days. Nobody ever, you occasionally let your bottom lip tremble at moments of high emotion. But on the whole, there was no weeping and a wailing until relatively recently. Now, Dr. Emma Kell is still with me. She's been, well, you're a woman of steel. You're a teacher, for heaven's sake, so you've had no choice. I remember a teacher at my daughter's school saying that the worst class to teach was RE to year nine on a Friday afternoon.

Would that be about right? Friday afternoon is notorious. There are many factors that need to be considered and they're all very important. Weather. So if it's raining, that wet dog smell when they come into a classroom is horrendous and the wet dog smell when they leave the classroom mixed with a bit of cheese is uh it's even worse wind and it's not a myth it's not a myth a windy day will just have them on the ceiling i think you meant flatulent not well that's awful too right oh yeah oh the fart in the classroom you said fart so i'm allowed to say fart the fart in the classroom just sends everyone into absolute havoc because it's never it's never

actually not funny no it's never not exactly and you have to turn to the board and pretend not to be laughing because that's that's always or the bee the bee that flies in there are all these different things pigeons pigeons oh mice mice someone had a mouse crawl through their classroom i'm over a child's school bag. But actually what's interesting is that, I mean, I've always worked in London comprehensive schools. And actually Monday mornings can be far worse. Because actually on a serious note, a lot of these children are coming from absolute chaos at home. And school's their safe place.

So, yeah, we've had children sleeping in their cars, you know, in schools I've worked at. And children sharing beds with their mums because they can't afford. So actually coming to school on Monday is where they find the stability and the routines. And they welcome those boundaries. They love those boundaries. You know, I've been interviewing young people about what they think about school and they like teachers to be strict. They'll tell you they don't. It's a bit like your child needing you to be there for them. They'll tell you don't want you around but you know we were talking about this earlier they need you to be there clanking in the dishwasher they need to know you're there

so actually monday mornings can be really tough yeah that's really interesting um and i've already spent quite a lot this morning telling you you need to do a podcast about teaching emma so take me off on that and please do it um we are going to talk about work in a minute. I just want to mention that we have had at least one email from a proms positive person. It's from Jane actually who says as parents we thought the proms were great. It gave the young people the chance to mark the transition from school to sixth form to dress up and socialise. It's promenading and so nice to see them all in their finery, especially the boys. It's only the pressure to overspend that's the problem and that could probably be got round. Ask the young people if they like the proms,

not the people that have never been involved. Well, no, quite right too. Now, work and school and homework and secondary school. How much as a parent do you need to be involved with your child? Now, I know every child is different. And what do teachers think of parents who get themselves involved? So the first question first, how much should you do? Or is it all about the child? Well, parental engagement for teachers, I've got my teacher hat on again, but parental engagement

for teachers is always the toughest nut to crack in secondary. And we're always trying to learn ever since I've been teaching two decades, trying to learn from primary never quite getting it right um I think what's really really important with both hats on is to acknowledge that you're on the same side actually that everyone wants the same thing um keeping so so turning up at those parents evenings trying to I'm notorious for this but um trying to keep to those deadlines returning the reply slips and letting the school know if there's something you're worried about or something they should be aware of. We tragically lost my mother-in-law last year. Just let the form tutor know, let the school know. Where it can become very difficult is when that relationship breaks

down. So either on one side, the parent feels that they're not let's say for example they feel their child's being bullied the school feels they've dealt with it and possibly god forbid their child has some part in in the issues as well um and that and that can be extremely difficult but what i'd say as a parent is if you're not if you're not getting joy from the person you're contacting go up the ladder schools are very hierarchical so if you're not getting the joy from the french teacher you can go to the head of department and then the head of year and then the but but purely on work terms if you begin to believe that your child isn't getting let's say french or is struggling to understand the middle on the floss or whatever

it might be is it is it all right to go in and complain or just express your concern? Well, I'm bound from telling anyone at my daughter's school that I'm a French and an English teacher. And she's wildly independent about homework of all kinds. So there's this great app called Show My Homework. It comes through to her, comes through to us, so we know exactly what she has to do. And is that quite common to have that app?

That's very, very common. Stereotype, but she's a girl she is naturally very well she was she's quite a kind of hard-working uh dedicated girl who will go off and just do her homework and come back and say look i've done my homework and i do count my blessings on that one and know that um my second one might not be quite so it's really hard when your child's struggling at school. So we've had floods of tears because of geography, because of not finishing the map and having to stay in at break. We've had floods of tears the night before a maths test.

And my parents were very involved with my schooling. And actually, all the research says that it's actually the parents. The parents are the key to a child's future success rather than the school, actually. It's quite interesting research on that. So my parents were hugely involved and I actually credit them with my B grade for English A level. But it depends on the child. As you say, it really does depend on the child.

And do teachers just think, oh God, it's another email from her or him? Occasionally we think that. I'd be lying if I, so the child who's, oh, you're not stretching my child, you're not stretching my child. Well, your child's an arrogant little so-and-so and actually needs to show some resilience and actually push through. So, sorry, that was a bit harsh.

No, I think you're being really honest. And homework, it can blight people's lives. A lot of people feel there's too much of it. What do you do if your child isn't doing their homework or doesn't want to do it? Well, that's about routines, I suppose. But which of us can't remember that awful feeling on a Sunday afternoon of having to sit down and do the homework? I shouldn't say this, if they miss one homework, is it really the end of the world? This is me as a teacher speaking. Value of homework, we could do a whole phone in on that as well.

It's the school's responsibility to be setting homework that's actually meaningful and and dare I say enjoyable because kids actually learn better when they're actually absorbed in what they're doing it's not an easy one but what you generally find is that if the school values homework they will make sure that a it's of good quality and b there is a fair and reasonable follow-up if it's not done or if the child's struggled with it. If the school itself doesn't really value homework or the teacher, and it does happen, you do get, my daughter said this the other day, well, no one ever does homework for so-and-so because he never takes it in and he never marks it.

So, yeah, I can't believe that. Kate says, my third child's about to start secondary school. All my previous children seemed to lose their mind when they did this. They forgot their homework, their travel card, their uniform. Year seven is a huge emotional drain on children, even bright, otherwise functioning ones. The other weekend, we were on a long driving trip and I asked the two boys to give my daughter tips on what to think about year seven. For hours they listed off a million things, nothing to do with schoolwork, but all the invisible social labour she'll have to undertake. Where to stand, where to walk and not run, how to wear the tie, how to wear the skirt, what lunch to bring, when is it okay to bring a packed lunch, how to negotiate changing

rooms for PE, what teachers to watch out for, what you get detention for, what kids to watch out for, etc. It went on for two hours. This seems to me to be the most challenging part of the transition. It's a little gloomy, but what would you say about that? Well, yeah, as I alluded to earlier, everything changes, doesn't it? When you think about it, from their point of view absolutely everything from the time they get up in the morning to what they have to put on to them having to nag mum to iron the shirt um the joys of tumble dryers um mine's just broken um so literally everything what they have what they have to eat so actually you know these might

seem like small things to us but if you took either one of us and placed us in a brand new working environment with brand new people and a brand new dress code and a brand new set of expectations, we would be completely overwhelmed. What I would say is most young people are remarkably adaptable. So working in London, as I do, we often get children arriving halfway through year seven, halfway through year eight with no English, sometimes with no formal education at all. And it's absolutely incredible, you know, respect to them that in the space of months, sometimes weeks. I cannot get my head around that. The raw courage you must require. Yeah. Well, I suppose you could argue they've got no choice. But I mean, they are absolutely

remarkable. I taught a young man last year who who you know within within six weeks of arriving from portugal was reading an inspector calls yeah i mean it and and you're just humbled by it it really does almost bring you to tears sometimes because you so young people for all their bluster and moodiness and mood swings and everything else, deserve far more credit than we sometimes give them, I think. They're much more resilient than I would be. Can I just put this point to you from, only for the name actually, listening to your programme, my daughter has dyslexia and she didn't get support in her outstanding school. I felt we were treated dismissively by the head for years. I'm trying to avoid the use of the word bullied,

but I felt unsupported and I tried all avenues to have positive discussions. Her style wasn't inclusive of different opinions. The governors were all in, the council was supportive of the outstanding head, and there was nowhere to go. Often, if you don't buy into the leadership available, you're out. What do you think about that?

Because I mean, it's a very personal story, but everybody feels passionately about their child. Of course they do. Don't get me started on Ofsted gradings. I just have. I mean, I mean, Ofsted gradings are to be taken with a huge pinch of salt. Yeah, but they matter. They may they may be just not. You can dismiss them possibly if you know about what really goes on as you do but they're really important unfortunately you some

people might say yeah absolutely and as a parent you're you're sending your child to an outstanding school you know that that is and you've read the if you have problems with that outstanding school it can be difficult yeah yeah um it can be really difficult now if i were in her position um i would feel just as frustrated actually i mean i would probably be going for somebody else within the school as i've mentioned before it's all about the relationships and um finding an ally in the form of the head of year or the english teacher or a teacher that her daughter has a particularly good relationship with but in like like in any situation if no joy in the long run if they're not doing what's right for your child find a

different school that will and very briefly julie says we've got triplet sons i thought twin girls was but triplet sons moving to secondary school this year they decided to be in separate forms preferring to choose a special friend from their lovely village primary at The Cone Community School and College gave us some choice in this. Well, well done to them. But now, says Julie, we've got three form teachers, three parents evenings and three different timetables. Help. Well, it's brilliant. You're so lucky, Julie, as I'm sure you know, to have triplet sons.

That must be incredible. And I would imagine if they're going to secondary school, well, you're through the worst, aren't you? Until they become teenagers, that is. Thanks very much to everybody and particularly to you, Emma. You've been brilliant. Thank you so much for helping out this morning. Thank you for having me. And of course, the programme and the podcast back tomorrow. Sorry to interrupt your content consumption, but can I quickly suggest a podcast you might like? It's called Grown-Up Land. Every week, comedian Heidi Regan, podcaster Ned Sedgwick, if that is even a job,

Syrian dreamboat Steve Alley, and me, comedian Sophie Duker, are joined by a brilliant guest to discuss the bewildering pursuit of adulthood. We talk sex, jobs, rejection, jealousy, sex, all with help from BBC Radio 4. That's the Grown-Up Land podcast. Make sure you subscribe on BBC Sounds. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.