Woman's Hour - Phone-in: The Psychological Impact of Brexit

Episode Date: September 9, 2019

We want to hear how Brexit is affecting your relationship, your mood and your behaviour. Do you feel more or less anxious about the future? Do you see eye to eye with others in your family - have you fallen out with close friends - or have you found yourself becoming peacemaker? Have you started to do things differently? Maybe you've had to make very different decisions about your work? Have you been doing an extra bit of shopping each week in anticipation of shortages? Perhaps you're one of the people we've heard about this week who is trying to build up a supply of medicines for yourself or a loved one? We want to hear from you. Joining Jane in the studio is conflict resolution specialist and psychotherapist, Gabrielle Rifkind. Phone lines are open from 0900 on Monday. The number to call is 03700 100 444. You can email now via the Woman's Hour Website.Presenter: Jane Garvey Interviewed guest: Gabrielle Rifkind, director of Oxford Process Producer: Lucinda Montefiore

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey. Welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. It's Monday the 9th of September 2019. And this edition of the podcast is a phone-in, which we did this morning, obviously. And it was really essentially about the feelings you have around the ongoing Brexit debate. There is no doubt it has challenged families, it's fractured friendships, it's caused disagreement and anxiety and alarm. So have a listen.

And at the end of the programme, you can hear more in this podcast edition of the show in which I talk to the conflict resolution expert and psychotherapist Gabrielle Rifkin who is in the studio with me throughout. But here we go with the live show to kick us off. Hi, good morning and today we want your calls. I'm joined in the studio by Gabrielle Rifkin who's a conflict resolution specialist and boy does Britain need one of those right now as Brexit carries on, stumbles on some would say. We're still apparently no nearer coming together as a nation and agreeing what we want or what we don't want. Give us a call this morning. 03700 100 444. Whether you voted leave, as of course the majority of people who voted in the referendum did, or whether you voted remain. We really want your calls this morning. We want to know how it's affected your family life, how it's affected your friendships.

Maybe it does seem from the tone of quite a lot of your emails that people have fallen out or some of you who simply learned to avoid the subject altogether. Oh, three seven hundred one hundred four four four is all this as well, making you feel anxious. If you're a woman of my age, so mid-50s, this is easily the most polarising and frankly anxiety-inducing event that has ever happened in our British rather cosy lifetimes. What has that done to you and how you feel about the way you live? But it's really feelings and friendships and relationships we want to focus on today. So this isn't about the intricacies of GATT24 or the appeal or not of Canada Plus. It's what it's done to how you feel about everything. Gabrielle, there is no doubt there are strong feelings on both sides and there are very

stubborn people on both sides of this argument, aren't there? Yeah, that's one way of putting it. And people certainly have found themselves in more extreme positions than they would normally be. And this seems to be becoming more and more exacerbated. I suppose the interesting question is why? And I think in some ways Brexit, the slogan of Brexit was take back control. And I think what we're talking about is

a deep sense for many people in their lives of feeling out of control and what kind of things they can control. But when things are getting adversarial, what you're getting is kind of a sort of hostile electricity in families where people are stopping being able to listen to each other and understand what the other person's thinking. And even people have stopped learning to inquire or be curious or ask questions. And so they've found themselves more and more on different sides of the divide. Carry on. Briefly finish that thought. No. Well, I'd say if we're going to put a conflict resolution lens in yeah what would it be like if people actually um sort of overcame that sort of

hostile feeling that's going on and and found ways of being curious and inquiring and finding out what people think who think differently to them. And that has become something very, very difficult to do. And we can be very afraid of finding out what other people think, can't we? Because it challenges what we think or what we think we know, perhaps more importantly. Bear with me one second. This tweet is interesting from a listener who says, good to see some focus on the impact of Brexit on women's lives, on society and communities. Coverage predominantly very male and stale, often making it seem like a theoretical fight, battle or war.

And certainly the language of the debate is something we have discussed on Women's Hour. We did it last week, in fact, on Friday. Let's go to Sussex and Amber has rung. The number, by the way, 03700 100 444. Amber, good morning to you hi good morning now actually you're interesting because far from having a fractured relationship as a result of all this you've grown closer to your dad why is that uh we have well i just want to say i feel kind of bad about it obviously it's at the expense of the country and i'd rather it

hadn't happened but um yes we um we have grown closer because of it. I'd always been very close to my dad growing up. And then following a family bereavement in 2016, we fell out, became very distant. But with the sort of onset of the referendum and the interest in politics at that time, it actually gave us a sort of, if you like, neutral topic on which we could converse and sort of act normally together. What do you mean exactly? Because you both agree? Yeah, well, we both ended up voting the same way in the referendum. I've always been very interested in politics and so has my dad. So when it all sort of kicked off, we were able to kind of find this safe ground to,

you know, have you seen what's happening in the news, etc., without sort of bringing in anything deep and underlying. And you both voted leave, I understand. Yes, yeah, we did, yeah. And what about the rest of the family? I had a sister who didn't vote at all and my mum voted remain. I think, to be honest, we're the only two who really have any kind of interest in it. So theirs was a sort of a throwaway vote, if you like.

Well, throwaway vote, that sounds judgmental. No, I don't mean that in any detrimental way. I just mean they sort of thought, well, I'm not really sure, so I'll give it this side and, you know, give it a go. And you mentioned, who was it you mentioned who didn't vote? That was... My sister, yeah. Yeah. I mean, that does intrigue me because there were nearly 30% of those who could vote didn't vote. You don't seem to hear a lot from those people. What does your sister say about all this? Well, I mean, to be honest, I respect her decision not to vote. She has no interest in it. She didn't know. Yeah, there are pros and cons to voting and not voting. So it's up to those people,

really, I think. Amber, thank you very much. Here's an email from a listener who says, keep me anonymous, but Brexit is making me feel unwell. It is worrying me so much. It's making me really, really anxious. I'm actually quite frightened about the future of our country. I voted to leave and I am deeply, deeply upset by the actions of the people hell-bent on apparently overturning the result of the referendum and destroying our democracy. Ellie is able to join us now. Ellie, good morning to you. Oh, good morning.

Now, tell us about your own story. You're Dutch. You've lived in Britain for many years. Yes, more than half a century. And tell me your thinking about Brexit. Well, I find it most worrying. It affects me directly. Of course, it affects all British people in Britain directly,

but us Europeans in Britain even more, because we stand to lose rights that we legitimately got through the European Union. And the way we have to go through hoops to try and get our status legalized, because there is no legislation, primary legislation for it, it's very difficult. It makes us very insecure. It makes you question the friendships you have. It makes you realize that even after more than 50 years in a country, some people regard you as the other, and not just as their neighbors, their friends, their carers, their colleagues.

It's very upsetting. But you appreciate that the email I've just read out was from a listener who felt very anxious as well, because they firmly believe that our democracy is threatened if Brexit isn't allowed to happen. Yes, I realise that some people feel that way, but you only have to look at what has happened with elections, with the vote, with elections, with wanting another election, that governments are allowed to change their minds, but voters are not. And quite frankly, three and a half years nearly, or a good three years after the referendum vote, is a very long time, and the demographic has changed. People have died, young people come into voting.

And it will affect them most directly if we Brexit the young ones. You say that your friends, some of your friends, have started to treat you differently. Have you lost friends, would you say, through this? I have withdrawn from certain friends, others who are still friends, but I feel not very supported or they have no interest. They just don't want to understand or want to explore anything different. But actually, I've also made very good and strong new friendships. And that's a positive, especially when you're feeling low and anxious and sleepless nights and so on. Well, I can hear it in your voice, Elie, and I certainly don't wish you sleepless nights. Thank you very much indeed for that.

An anonymous emailer says, do keep me anonymous, significant feelings of anxiety due to an unsettling atmosphere for my half-Dutch grandchildren. They have been seriously affected over the last three years. And in spite of reassurances, they're constantly asking, will daddy have to leave us if Brexit happens? I do find this heartbreaking. This is a tweet from a listener who says Brexit has had a huge impact on my physical and mental health, chronic pain as a result of an ongoing stress. There isn't a single day without worrying about the future in this country. I am a European. Here is an email from someone who says,

I recently spent a week with a Dutch friend as a partner, as I do every summer. For the past three years, I've been subjected to all manner of criticism about the UK's decision to leave the EU, which I've fended off as best I can, although I found it very upsetting. This year, I sat at the table between my friend's partner and her son-in-law

who talked across me, laughing at very offensive cartoons in the Dutch papers about Boris Johnson and describing the pound as proud and arrogant, describing the British, I'm sorry, as proud and arrogant because we're still pursuing Brexit. We've been friends for 50 years and I really do feel hurt by this. Can we ever expect to be treated fairly again if we remain in the EU, says that emailer. Sylvia joins us from North London. Sylvia, good morning to you. Good morning, yes.

Now, you've got six grandchildren. Yes, I have. And your concern is? My concern is that the impact of Brexit on their futures. My son and his partner, they've already spoken about, they voted remain as me and my husband did. They've already spoken about their concerns and worries and anxieties about the future of this country. And they may have to consider leaving at some time in the future.

That makes me worried, obviously. I think Brexit has created a terrible amount of anxiety in the nation and I don't really think it was ever handled properly in the first place. I think the planning could have been much better. What sort of planning? Well, I think for a start to have this, I think we should have had a real consensus on such a major issue

and perhaps instead of 50-50, it should have been something like we require 60% either way. And I do think the public, it was a simple yes or no. And I don't think we were given enough information. We did receive the booklet from the government, but I'm a Democrat. So I think that we've had the referendum. We should leave. But I want us to leave with a deal to keep close ties with Europe. And I want a deal. And I think the way that I feel is that this could be a generational thing. There's nothing to say that in 10 years time there may not be another referendum and we could rejoin we may not get the same you know benefit that we currently do

but it could in the future we could have a referendum again i mean i'm a school governor and you think about it three and a quarter years down the line, nearly three and a half years, you've got a lot of young people who were 15 then, would be eligible to vote then. A lot of people, elderly people, like my own mother passed away last year. A lot of those people are no longer with us. So it may be a different outcome. But I do, I've had a discussion with Labour Party colleagues. And my feeling is is I believe in democracy. Right. So we should leave. Well, that's what indeed we did vote to leave. But you'd prefer to have a deal. I think it's important, isn't it, Gabrielle? Lots of people voted in good faith in that referendum.

It may have been because of the fact that we don't have proportional representation in this country. The only time in their voting lives that their vote counted. And a lot of people do feel they're in danger of being completely ignored. I think you're absolutely right. And it feels like being trampled on and not heard. And that's a very deep need for all of us. But I also think your listener was very thoughtful about the way the whole negotiation has taken place. And there has been nothing collaborative about it. It's actually created an adversarial mood.

And it's about winners and losers. And it's not about trying to understand underneath what would make people safe. What are the consequences? Are people going to suffer? So it's beyond whether you're a Brexiteer or whether you never wanted to leave. What we should be looking is getting underneath and thinking, how is it going to affect our country and how are we going to come together after this? Quite simply, if you are trapped in a room at a family event and there is, let's say, your brother-in-law or your sister-in-law and they have exactly a polar opposite opinion to your own. What is your duty as a decent family member in that circumstance?

It's interesting you use the word duty. But I think what happens is the atmosphere is quite hostile already. So people think, well, I'll keep off this subject. It's too difficult. It's only going to cause conflict and argument. And actually, I think if one can pause and think, how do you actually engage with people who think differently? And how do you inquire? How do you find out? Why do they think differently to you? What are the things they really care about?

And you mentioned the word identity before. I think one of the reasons we don't do it, because we see it as tied up with our identity. And if we loosen it in any way, or we don't do it because we see it as tied up with our identity and if we loosen it in any way or or we don't stand firmly maybe we won't even know what we think but actually it's possible to inquire to learn something and even manage that you don't even have to agree with the other person but you can manage the difference and we're not very good at this. Jenny is probably not alone. She's tweeted to say, I'm worried about just being able to feed my family over the first three months after Brexit. This would be Brexit with no deal, I think Jenny's referring to there.

I don't think anyone has thought about this. It will be three months apparently until we get so-called normal service resumed. Should we stockpile? Again, it's a concern that will be shared by many people listening Gabrielle if we are concerned about shortages will it help our mental state if we make some sort of preparation yes now I mean I think it's kind of the balance between being pragmatic and and not panicking too much because we don't really know what it means the truth is probably even governments insiders don't really know what it means. And the truth is probably even governments

insiders don't really know what it means. I think there are kind of things you can do to make yourself reassured. If there are particular medicines that really matter to you, you know, I'd make sure they were available. You know, there's no space to being indifferent. But on the other hand, maybe it's a kind of pragmatic approach that might help here. Let's go to Nottingham. Max, hi, good morning. I am Max Nottingham, in fact. I do apologise. You're in Lincoln, Max Nottingham. I'm in Lincoln, Max Nottingham.

Plough on. I'm a news addict. I'm second one story dominating the news. Sick, sick, sick, sick, sick. And in 20 years' time, we'll have Brexit the musical. Imagine trying to write that. I'd like to be in it. I'll be in the chorus line. I like a variety of news.

I like to listen to the news. And there are five or six big stories, not just one over and over again. And some of the discussion about it is as shallow as a pancreas, which has been sat on by a pregnant elephant, pardon the pun. How long have you been up writing this script, Max? This is incredible stuff. So tell us, where do you stand on the current...

Well, I write letters to newspapers, so I've got certain lines in my head. OK, well, can we have a few more of your lines before I let you go? How are you currently feeling? I'd like a general election now, not because I think my side would win it, I think my side would lose it. I think Boris

would win now, but I'd like a general election now. People are bad losers out the stairs, bad losers. You're bad losers. I would like to replay every match Lincoln City have lost

this season but it doesn't work that way you put up a vote it said on the form this will we will do whatever you vote for and now they haven't done it and it's three years later

Max thank you get on with it lads and lasses in power Max who's not in Nottingham which would have helped me he's in Lincoln and he's here all week with some of his great lines. He'll be off now to pen another letter to the local paper. Patricia joins us actually from France,

where you've been living for 17 years, Patricia. Good morning to you. Good morning. Yes, that's right. I came here when I had to take early retirement for health reasons and came here then. And I imagine you're feeling somewhat unsettled, am I right? Very unsettled, although I'll be truthful, I've actually taken on French nationality. I've got your nationality now, which is something.

But I'm dependent on my pension coming from Britain. If the pound drops, then my pension coming from Britain. If the pound drops, then my money income will drop. If there's an election, I can't vote. I've been here longer than 15 years. And yet I continue to pay tax in Britain because I was a teacher in the UK. Seems very unfair. Can I ask how your French friends and neighbours are treating you?

And how are they talking about what's happening here? Well, they're all very pleased that I've become French, but they look at me with total amazement and just say, what on earth is going on? They can't believe Britain, who they sort of upheld as, I don't know, a stable, intelligent country, has sunk to this state, really. We're a laughingstock, quite honestly, here. But, of course, Patricia, because you haven't lived in Britain for as long as you have, I guess you don't actually... I wouldn't recognise Britain, probably, if I came back now. When was the last time you did come back? 17 years ago.

Right, oh, I see. You haven't been... I haven't been back since So you would admit yourself that your understanding of the person who for example in the West Midlands I don't know I'm picking Dudley for example went out and voted for leave really believing that it would improve their chances in life

perhaps improve their grandchildren's chances I don't think I can can improve grandchildren, though. I mean, where's the freedom to come and study in France or to Europe, to move around Europe? The experiences or the ease that we had as young people to go where we wanted, that's gone. That's going to be gone now. Thank you very much, Patricia.

Patricia, who is now living in France. Patricia is the first to admit she hasn't been to Britain for 17 years. Her perspective actually is interesting because she simply cannot get her head around it. What would you say about that, Gabrielle? it and they can't really understand what's happening. You know, I'm a passionate believer that we actually have to start talking to people who don't think like us. And why are they thinking differently? And people for very good reasons have positioned themselves on both sides of the argument. And, you know And I wonder even amongst your listeners how many people actually talk to people who think differently to themselves. Some things happened in the culture where we've now gone on one of the fault lines

and we don't cross the barricade and we don't find out how people think who think differently to us. And in fact, that is the grounds why things become so polarised and extreme. And the government has reinforced that by not encouraging the kind of discourse about where do our common interests lie? What are the areas in which it's in the best interest for the whole country? We want to cause from you this morning on friendships and relationships. lie? What are the areas in which it's in the best interest for the whole country?

We want calls from you this morning on friendships and relationships in terms of what this debate is doing to you. Yes, we'll listen to people who are feeling anxious and unsettled, but I suppose we want personal stories. 03700100444, Kathy on Twitter says, I can't believe this discussion. These callers can't be a representative sample. They're still talking about winners and losers. I think we're all losers. However,xiteer and it was a woman. We were friends and colleagues working in a startup IT company. On Facebook I pointed out some of the weaknesses in her arguments in support of Remain and she unfriended me. But then amazingly six months later she emailed me to ask me for a character reference for her daughter and he does point out that that seems a little bit unfair. What were you going to say, Gabrielle? I think the insecurity is making people feel very fragile. Government no longer feels like, for many people, it knows what it's doing. We no longer look to our leaders as if they're

in control. And in some ways, leaders are a bit like parents. We like some kind of clarity there. But this what is the insecurity is doing is making people feel more unsafe and therefore potentially more adversarial. And so it's what do we do in the face of these insecurities to actually sort of give us a greater sense of stability. This other email is called, no, don't need to mention the name. You asked about how Brexit is affecting our lives. I've now got a twitchy eye, which I never had before. And I've had run-ins on Facebook with several of my so-called friends. Another email, I have never felt so upset, dismayed and worried

about Brexit and the current state of the UK. I am a Remainer and as such, I've been unfriended by some on Facebook and argued with other friends and family, even people at the gym, who suggested our Remainerian trainer, a skilled woman and fluent in five languages, should go home. And this is in Birmingham, King's Heath. Yes, I know, King's Heath. It's a mixed community and now Brexit has burst through the veneer of our society and emboldened racists and misogynists and the extremes in politics and views.

That's interesting. Brexit has burst through the veneer of our society. I think possibly that email is not alone in that opinion, Gabrielle. No, no. I mean, it's quite profound that, isn't it? And disturbing. I mean, I think the other bit we haven't mentioned is also what social media is listen to the other or how do you have a dignified discussion is somehow evaporating or eroding in our culture and I think we have to really ask seriously how do we get that back? How do we manage to listen to each other around areas of difference and manage to tolerate it? Rebecca says my mum and dad have lived in Greece for more than 20 years. My mum's twin sister voted leave, which essentially removes her sister's right

to keep living in her home. It also takes away her access to healthcare. My parents are nearly 80 with all the ailments that come with that, emphysema, high blood pressure, heart and back problems. How can I ever forgive my aunt's choice to lay waste to my mum's life? Another email, Brexit has split my family and exposed its fault lines. My father and sister voted to leave, my brothers and I to remain. They voted in this way despite some of

our family being married or linked to EU nationals. Initially, my brother called my father a racist and there was a standoff. But although we are now back in touch with each other, it has broken something. I cannot and have never raised the issue with my sister because I know it will spell the end of our relationship. But equally, because this is a dishonest way to live, I simply do not see her. I miss my old world where I felt good to live in this country. Actually, that's not an uncommon email. Sure. No, no. Those kind of extremes are happening in families and people feel it's too unsafe to speak about it. And if they speak about it,

they fear it will make it worse. So I suppose the real challenge, is there a way to speak about it in which there's a different kind of conversation that is not so scary? And I'm not sure we're very good about that. And I think that requires that when we listen to people, we don't constantly want to change their minds, which we often want to do. We want people to think like us.

I think there's a kind of fundamentalism in the discussion, the idea on all sides that, dare I say, even a liberal fundamentalism, that actually it's very, very hard to tolerate someone who thinks differently to you. Katie makes a good point on Twitter. By the way, Twitter, of course, and Instagram at BBC Women's Hour, if you want to get involved there. We've had some brilliant emails today, so thank you. Katie says, I think Remainers are still hurt by Brexiters

because their entire status quo has been changed by the result of that vote. If the Brexiters had lost, their lives would have gone on much the same. And this makes for difficult relationships. We'll go back to the phones. Victoria, hi, good morning. Hello. Hello, how are you? Hi, I'm great. Pleasure to talk to you. Hi. Well, no, never be too excited. You don't write letters to newspapers, do you? Unlike our earlier call. No, tell us about your own situation. Okay, so I came from the united states as a refugee actually from the ussr with

my family when i was a child um uh being from uh ukraine uh and jews and we we went moved over to switzerland um just as migrants and i i came here as a teenager to to do schooling and i i i've established my adult life here right um so I've had a very varied migrant experience. Indeed. Yeah, quite. And I've always been really respectful of the country I live in. I feel, I know internally how lucky it is to be, one is to be a citizen.

And I know that actually to be able to be engaged in a civic life is a privilege to be able to vote. So I hope to become a citizen here. I have definitely to remain. It's a really big deal for me. But do you understand, Victoria, from the perspective of somebody like me who has never known, I've lived in good old Britain, and really, honestly, for 52 years of my life, I can just about remember the three-day week of the 1970s, almost nothing happened. Yeah.

And how lucky was I without ever realising it? Yeah, exactly. And I think that's why I try to be respectful the whole time I've lived here. But I just feel, but since the Brexit vote, it's just I can't hold it back that I think how short-sighted can people be? Because you look at the

20th century and the amount of conflict. I think if you think about the long game and you think about how fractured Europe has been and the hardships that many people, in a very recent past, I'm sure, I'm definitely younger than you, but I think our parents' generation is maybe more similar in experience,

have seen so much turmoil. And I'm so angered by my friends who, I'm like in the bracket of a millennial, which I don't love to use that word, but just so you understand where I'm coming from. And I'm so angered by my friends who, I'm like in the bracket of a millennial, which I don't love to use that word, but just so you understand where I'm coming from. And I'm so angered by my friends who say all these things that they hate about Brexit, but they didn't vote.

And like in Switzerland, the power of referendum is such a big part of the civic life. It's a really rigorous democracy there. And it's not here, it just isn't. And so it's just really upsetting to see it's causing me a lot of anxiety, I love this place I still want to move my home and I'll continue to pay my taxes

and make a life here and be a citizen and I really hope one day to be able to vote but it's really sad, I love this country very much. Thank you Victoria Victoria's perspective is interesting and an important one and we hope she does get the vote eventually here. Susie is in Brighton. Hi Susie.

Hi there. Tell us, now you've set up, you're a Remainer, you've set up a group in Brighton. Well, three groups came together following the referendum, the 48% to Brighton and Hose for Europe and we set up a campaigning group, Brighton and Hose for EU and we've been going for about two and a half years and then about a year ago I was aware that women were simply not being represented in this debate people have said already on your

program that there have been male attitudes towards Brexit, talking about trade etc and actually women are very very concerned about their families, we were finding this on our stores that women were coming up just to say i'm absolutely devastated a finnish woman told us that she was married to a brit and she couldn't vote even though her children were

british because she was an eu citizen whereas commonwealth citizens were able to vote right so we we also through our through our links with Europe, are finding that people in Europe who have been living there for more than 15 years were not able to vote. And it's going to affect their lives, all the things around pensions and medical health, etc. They were not allowed to vote.

So we believe that the referendum was actually flawed and lots of people were actually disenfranchised. So talking about it being the will of the people, we say, what people? Which people? Who are they? Except, Susie, you know that had, let's say, Remain had won narrowly, you wouldn't

have protested, would you? What do you mean? What Nigel Farage said on the day? That would be the argument He said that wasn't the end of the game 52-48 we keep going So we know that he wouldn't have stopped And we know that we're in a battle And it is true that

Caroline Lucas down here in Brighton Has done an awful lot of work talking to Leavers She's gone round the country Saying we know and understand Why you voted because you felt that you weren't being listened to okay susie it's our people in our group i do take i take your point the line isn't the greatest but but you do make the interesting point that caroline lucas has done exactly what you were talking about gabrielle which is that she's gone out and engaged with the

opposite point of view yeah and but then what do you do once you've engaged well that's a good yes so what do you do because it's not just just to engage, to get into the shoes of the other side, to listen to how they're thinking. Then underneath it, you have to actually begin to define what are the things that people have in common. Actually, people there are underneath it that people want things to be stable, secure their issues of unemployment. How is it going to affect people's lives in a much more nitty-gritty way, whereas the actual practical realities? But we're not really getting into that

because the debate supposedly is going on at a rational level, but actually it's deeply, deeply emotional because it's much more around people feel threatened and in their identity and feeling very, very insecure. So what do you think will happen after all this is over? Well, I think there'll be some relief that there is a decision and that's essential, but there might need to be quite a lot of healing and reconciliation and some way of having a national conversation where people really feel properly listened to. What I think is so important about a programme like this

is listening to people and what it really means to them. And I think the whole notion of representational democracy is really in trouble now because people don't feel that their views are being reflected or they're being listened to and that we need something much more like participatory democracy. And this is one version of that. What does that mean?

It means, of course, you've got to manage very disparate views. And if you listen to people, it doesn't mean you just easily come up with one answer. But you do have to understand better why people are so frustrated and angry. And is it issues like the fracturing of communities? Is it people's sense of belonging? Globalisation, we've heard it, yeah.

What's going on that people are feeling this so deeply? Because we've got to think very carefully about it. We have to deal with people's real anxieties and fears. Some people would be worrying about artificial intelligence and what jobs are there for them and what future is there for them. But we need to listen to what people are really concerned about. And then that's the way we know. And that's what politics needs to be about.

Chris has tweeted, parents voted to leave, siblings and nieces voted remain, close friends voted remain. And it's strange, but when we go out, remain are at one end of the pub and leave at the other, we no longer mix socially. I mean, that just sounds incredible. Could somebody cross the floor and go and talk to them on the other side? Yeah, cross the floor of the pub. We can go to Bath and Mrs Isles. Hi, good morning to you. Hello.

Hello. Tell me, you're in your 80s. Yes. And you think everybody should calm down. Definitely. Tell me, you're in your 80s. Yes. And you think everybody should calm down. Definitely. Tell me why. Well, the lady I heard before I actually got onto the phone to you was all worried about how she was going to feed her children, blah, blah, blah.

Yeah. I think, what's wrong with these people? How do they think we grew up during the war? We had two ounces of butter each week. We had, if you went to the butcher for some sausage tops, he would say, would you like a sausage with that? Not a packet of sausage, just one sausage. And that sort of thing.

I get that completely, Mrs. Iles. But I think the point was we've been told, or some people have been told or would feel they've been told, that life outside the European Union wouldn't just be bearable, it would be better. And that's what we've got to focus on. We're supposed to be entering a better place, not just putting up with wartime style shortages Yeah, well I think during the war we didn't have any food coming in from Europe because they were all occupied

by the Germans so I mean we did alright, I don't know of anybody who died of starvation where I live. No, well it's a good point and we're always glad to get your involvement because people like yourself who've been around a long time

and have seen a thing or two need to be involved in the conversation. At the other end of the spectrum, we've got a 19-year-old. Henry, good morning to you. Oh, good morning. Hi there. Now, how are you?

I'm very well, thank you. I just thought I'd call in because although I couldn't vote, I am a Brexit supporter. And I recently had to go on a week's holiday, which I did enjoy, with my girlfriend and her family who are all quite serious Remainers. Okay, so how did it, how did things go socially? Are you still together? Yes, yeah, yeah, we are very happy coming up on three years. Excellent. I just think it's really important that people don't go around burning bridges in an endless debate, which you can't resolve. I mean, the people have had their vote and Parliament are dealing with it, you know, however they're doing at the moment. And it just seems like a terrible way to lose some friends or relatives. I think people really need to need to grow up. It won't be the end of the world.

I'm sure there'll be stresses and arguments which could go. Of course, you can argue both ways. But why would you needlessly cause arguments and ruin friendships? Did your girlfriend's family try to change your mind or did you try to change theirs? Well, as a rule, I thought, you know, you shouldn't let politics interfere with friendship. I mean, the discussion came up a few times, but I bit my tongue. And, yeah, it can be a bit frustrating at times. And, you know, sometimes I wish they'd have done the same and we could have stayed clear of politics. But, you know, why should I start fights over, you know,

everyone is entitled to their views. We should respect the views of each other. And, you know, the country voted and we'll go with that, really. Thank you very much, Henry. Congratulations on your upcoming three-year anniversary. Gabrielle, it sounds like he did the right thing. He should have Henry running the world. Yeah, I thought Henry was a very, very good bit of modelling.

Although I was intrigued. I did wonder, he said, let's not talk about it. We'll just recognise our differences. But I wonder if he had just found out why they thought differently, whether that could have been an interesting conversation as well, whether that could have been managed. OK. Glyn is a listener who doesn't believe in conflict resolution. So it's OK. Glyn, good morning.

Good morning. No, I do believe in conflict resolution. Oh, you do? Yeah, what I wanted to point out was that the people who attempt to resolve the conflict actually quite often come in for an attack from both sides that they're trying to resolve and i'm in the labour party i'm in the labour party in south london and um i wanted to point out that in the labour party jeremy corbyn and the and the leadership team are trying to and bound to try to resolve the conflict because the Labour Party itself is really split. In the north, lots of people suffering from very serious economic and social depression who voted to leave.

And in the south and in my constituency, one of the highest votes for remain. And so the Labour Party position, which is to try and address both those polarities, is getting ridiculed on the media and lambasted, like in Question Time recently, Emily Thornberry, who put the position that we want to negotiate a good deal. Yeah, and then campaign for Remain. Yeah, she said campaign for Remain, which made it look silly. But what she was trying to say was we want to put it to the people as a choice of the Labour Party. Well, this isn't a Labour Party political broadcast, but thank you for that, Glyn.

Gabrielle, what about the fact that in the end, we all have a personal responsibility, whether you voted in the referendum or not, however you voted in the referendum. We can all be pleasant. I mean, Kate has just tweeted to say, I'm going to catch up with a friend who voted differently to me in 2016. Haven't seen him for over a year. Our friendship is more important than the toxic, toxic narrative in sections of the media and politics. And that's it, really, isn't it? I think that's a lovely example, yeah. I think we do all have a responsibility in terms of how we heal some of these rifts

and how we go about it. And it's not easy because it requires a different kind of conversation, not trying to persuade the other person to think like you, but to be inquiring and getting into the shoes of the other person and really beginning to understand why they might think differently to you. Yeah. We're just going to briefly go to a caller. We're not going to give you a name, anonymous caller, but tell us about your situation. Hi. Yeah, I left home about 15 years ago and my parents voted different ways. I voted with my mother. I don't

really think it's relevant which way we voted. No. Her and my dad have been alone in the home for 15 years since we all moved out. And there's not a rift, but there's lack of conversation and they both have opinions

and they're both of the generation that don't talk freely about this and they're both of the generation that don't talk freely about this and they're both quite stubborn but I feel that my mother doesn't have a voice as much as she'd like and I help sort of broker that relationship. And that was the anonymous caller that we ended the phone in with today. I would have liked to talk to him for a lot longer but we had inevitably just run out of time but he couldn't give us his name because he was genuinely quite concerned about the situation in his parents' home and relationship, which, Gabrielle, it is. I mean, obviously, all of us are concerned about families most of the time, but there is no doubt this issue has caused more upset than any of us might have imagined. It really has.

Yes, and what you heard from him was almost like a frozen conflict at home. Things couldn't be spoken about. And often that creates even more anxiety. And people don't know how to talk about this, so it's safe. How do you create a safe space for a conversation around this, a safe space in which you actually perhaps are going to have to manage that people might think something different to you? And we tend to sort of veer away from that as if it's going to disturb us too much. But actually, it is manageable. But we're not very well trained in it. What we want

to do instead is pull people across the barricade to think like us well of course we do i mean it's a bit like everybody saying radio presenters for example saying oh i don't mind being criticized that's until you're criticized i mean there are there are some tweets this morning saying oh i don't why did the presenter do this why did she say that i i get it yeah people are absolutely entitled to slag me off but i don't enjoy reading them. But more to the point, it makes you feel defensive. Yes, very.

And it stops you being open minded and it makes you want to withdraw. And in fact, and it makes us want to protect ourselves. And that's sort of why we have defences in place. But actually, if we could sort of think about that, some might say a moment of mindfulness, and we can think, actually, how can we reach out across the floor, not in the same tone as of which you felt criticised, which you might want to do, and you might want to do it in a very defensive way. But how can you do it in a way that you actually say okay you felt that very strongly I need to understand why you feel that I want to listen I want to hear what you're saying but we don't want to do that

we want to close down and make it frozen we could have spent a lot of time a long time today actually just discussing you and your work because you have you've been involved in discussions between Israel and Palestine, for example. But from your professional perspective, did you expect this degree of upset in Britain about the EU referendum? I don't think I could ever have predicted it. I don't think anybody did. I think what we seem to know more and more is what we think is going to happen is not going to happen. But it's interesting because having worked in the Middle East for 20 years on conflicts that become violent, I now find myself drawn back home because there's plenty of conflicts that we need to think about and think about managing indifferently, not because it would change violence. And I know people even use the words like civil war but we might say there's a

bit of an emotional civil war going on yeah I'm going to just read some emails um and these are it's people are obviously and I don't blame you again for for saying well I heard too much from the remain side of the argument or I heard too much of the leave side of the argument on the program today honestly I read out the stuff that comes in so here's an email from a listener who says we had thought we would move to France in our retirement and we were working very hard towards that goal overnight that was smashed I simply cannot see anything to look forward to now we can't afford to go there and I feel irrationally angry with people who voted to leave. Despite having had conversations with leavers and trying to understand,

all I hear is what I'm afraid I believe and understand to be emotional views, not linked to any real facts. How can we respect the other side if we don't see any logic or reason for their decision-making? Yeah, and things have become hugely emotional, and she's saying this is really, really affecting my life. The truth is, it's affecting everybody's lives. But can you answer that central question?

How do we respect the other side if we just don't see any logic to their arguments? Yeah, but I think that's because we're having the surface of the argument, and we're not trusting what they're saying, and maybe for good reason. But if we need to get underneath it, why do people have these views so strongly?

What are they attached to? What is it really about? Is it about a greater insecurity? I mean, I would say that in some ways the whole notion of Brexit, which the slogan that won was take back control, is that people are feeling quite out of control in their lives. And that is something we have to think about. What is that about? I think in part, it's about the fracturing of the community, people's sense of

belonging, and that people are now beginning to feel unsafe. Now, you know, historically, there were perhaps even religion had a sort of place of safety for people or even, you know, historically there were, perhaps even religion had a sort of place of safety for people or even, you know, even the local pub, it's being closed down, the sense of where people gather. But it's not, what was important about that was where people gathered and sometimes it crossed the political differences.

So if you went to church, you actually had spaces where you met with people who thought differently to you. And so we're getting a huge reduction in the spaces where people can actually engage and think about what's behind the other. Quite a bit on the programme about the unfriending of various people. Yes. I hate that expression, but the unfriending on Facebook. Yes. That's where the battle is being fought. Yeah. And the speed at which people do it and the kind ofending of various people. Yes. I hate that expression, but the unfriending on Facebook. Yes. That's where the battle is being fought. Yeah, and the speed at which people do it and the kind of level of emotion

and how that's dehumanising the actual human contact. You know, I need to look you in the eye to be able to know who you are. And everything's getting speeded up. And actually it's harming relationships. This is from a listener who says, Brexit is the elephant in the room in my family. The grandparents and some of my older in-laws voted leave and the rest of us remain. My father is shockingly racist, but apparently unaware of the fact. My children's jaws literally drop when he speaks. He isn't a bad man.

He is a man who has religiously read the Telegraph cover to cover for years now, and he doesn't look or research for other perspectives on anything. If the Telegraph says something, then it's true to him. I honestly feel that he has been groomed. The practical impact of Brexit on my children's lives and my husband's business seems to be irrelevant to him and to my parents-in-law. And this is what saddens me the most. There is a generational difference here, although we should say that plenty of older people voted remain.

However... But what I'd say on that is that people are living in hermetically sealed bubbles. And now we have a huge amount of difference in our society. And unless we know how to engage, how to interact, how to meet with people who are different to us, these issues are going to get deeper and deeper. So possibly her father doesn't actually engage with people who think differently to him. It's only through real experience that we open our minds or change how we think about things. And just reading things is not enough. Reading the Daily Telegraph won't do it. And a listener says, I want to be anonymous.

I am a secret lever. There must be many like me. I have taken a close interest in current politics, but I feel I can't talk openly to friends as I cannot give them the camaraderie of remain that they would demand. I didn't vote in the referendum because I didn't want to oppose my children's views. But I am very upset by the undemocratic action of parliamentarians

who are using their majority to quash Brexit. Right, there's quite a lot packed into a couple of sentences there. But you mentioned earlier that there are fundamentalists on both sides there are liberal fundamentalists um and i think that's a very telling sentence i i cannot give them the camaraderie of remains that they would i mean there's camaraderie on on the leave side too yes but and how to have a conversation that might say look i'm not thinking the same as you it seems very difficult to talk about it is there a way that we can engage and we can understand why we believe in these different ways of thinking without it feeling so uncomfortable, so hostile?

Well, we don't know how to do that, but we just definitely need to learn. We have to go, but you and I could spend the next, I don't know, two or three years talking about what the future holds and how we're going to combat it. Thank you very much, Gabrielle. It's been really interesting. And what did you think about, what do you think, at least think about the tone of the debate? Well, I thought it was extremely civilised or civil.

That's our listeners for you. I know, I know. And I suppose I think if just one thing, if people go away and think, I'm going to just listen to someone who thinks differently to me and see what I learn. There we are. That's a very, let's just end on that. Let's ask someone we disagree with why they think the way they do.

But beware how you ask it then. Oh yeah, get the tone right. Get the tone right and be genuinely interested. Warm and fresh, that's what we're aiming at here. Radio with a smile. I am sort of grimacing at the microphone now. Right. Join us tomorrow.

And it'll be a more, well, it'll be a more standard kind of programme. Of course, none of them are standard. All of them are special. And it's tomorrow live at two minutes past ten. Russell Cain here. And I'm here to tell you about Evil Genius, the BBC Radio 4 podcast where we take icons from history and then decimate them by slinging mud.

Think you know everything about Einstein? You don't. He was a woman hater. You probably think you know about Amy Winehouse, that she was a victim. She had a pretty dark side and we're not shy about exploring it. Evil Genius. We take people from history and a panel of three fellow jesters have to vote at the end of the show.

No ifs, no buts, no grey areas, evil or genius. Plus hilarious banter as well. So head to BBC Sounds now and hit subscribe. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.