Woman's Hour - PHONE-IN - Would you stop having kids to save the planet?

Episode Date: January 20, 2020

The population of Earth has doubled since 1970 and is heading for 10 billion by 2050. That’s a lot of extra strain on the planet. Could having fewer kids be the answer? Jane Garvey wants to hear your thoughts! Would you consider having fewer kids for the greater good? Have you or someone you know decided to live a child-free life? Is Harry and Meghan’s choice to stop at two the ideal compromise? Are you someone who couldn’t ignore the urge for a third? Or is it over-consumption rather than over-population that’s the real issue? Call 03700 100 444 or email us via the Woman's Hour website. Lines open from 0830Presenter - Jane Garvey Producer - Anna Lacey Guest - Prof Sarah Harper Guest - Anna Hughes

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. This is the Woman's Hour podcast. It's a phone-in this morning, 03700 100 444. Would you consider, did you consider in the past having fewer children for the sake of the planet? The population of Earth has doubled since 1970. It's heading for 10 billion by 2050. And that is putting a huge amount of additional strain on Earth.

So could having fewer children be the answer, or at least your contribution to the Earth? So give us a call if you have a view on that. There is a BBC Two programme tomorrow night, an edition of Horizon, hosted by Chris Packham. It's called 7.7 Billion People and Counting. And I've seen a preview of that show and there's some very emotive footage within it, I think it's fair to say. One of the contributors is with us this morning, Professor Sarah Harper, Director of the Oxford Programme on Fertility, Education and Environment. Sarah, welcome to the programme.

Hello. Really good to have you with us. And also here, Anna Hughes, who is child-free for environmental reasons, Anna. Yes, that's right. When did you make that decision? Well, it's a decision I kind of made in my teens, actually. I became aware when I was a teenager that the earth seemed to be particularly crowded and perhaps that was something I shouldn't be contributing to and I'd kind of always assumed that I would have a

family or have children of my own when I was a child because you kind of do don't you that's what society sort of tells you and but when I reached my late teens I realised that actually it was a choice I could make and I had become aware of environmental issues and it just seemed to me that I didn't... Perhaps I could choose not to add to a growing global population by not having my own children and that's a choice I've never changed. I'm now in my late 30s and I still haven't changed my mind. OK. Sarah, is she wrong? Well, no, no one is wrong.

I mean, that's the wonderful thing about living in a country like Britain is everyone can make a choice about whether they're going to have children and how many they're going to have children. I think the really important thing to understand is that, yes, we have 7 billion, we're going to go to 10 billion. But in fact, the vast majority of those babies are now going to be born in Africa. In the last 25 years, we've had a tremendous reduction in our population so that now... Our population meaning Britain's or...?

The globe's population. Sorry, we haven't had a tremendous reduction in the globe's population, but in the number of children that are being born on the planet. Birth rate has dropped. Birth rate, childbearing has dropped. So in two thirds of the world's countries, now the replacement level is hit. So we have roughly between two and three children in two thirds of the world's countries. And it's really only in sub-Saharan Africa, where we have this huge still explosion of the number of babies being born. So the problem, this is complicated, I just want to knuckle it down a bit. The problem, if we can call it that, is that people are living

longer, not that more babies are being born. It's a combination. So number one, there are still huge numbers of women who do not have the choice in Africa, and they're having between four and 10 children. So we need to empower them. It is true that we're actually all living longer. And that's a really, really good thing. And that's when people say, we have to stop the world population going over 7.7. Well, actually, huge number of those people are already alive. But the third thing is that we increasingly are not looking at population growth but consumption, and that's where the really big issue comes

because in the high-income countries, we consume so much more than in the low-income countries. But to Anna's decision, Anna isn't going to have children, therefore she is lessening consumption. That's a contribution contribution isn't it? It is a contribution and actually half of 35 year old women in this country in Britain

have still to have their first child and we have one of the lowest rates in so much as if you look at the 45 year olds 20% of 45 year olds currently in Britain are childless which means they probably will continue to be childless or child free as I think a lot of people prefer to think of it. Or child-free.

Let's just go to the phone lines. People can call, of course, 03700 100 444. You can comment too on Instagram and Twitter, at BBC Women's Hour. Olivia is in Manchester. Olivia, good morning to you. Good morning. Now, your decision is what exactly?

So my decision and my partner's decision was to not have children. Climate change and fears about climate change being one part of the calculus. You know, other things weighed into that decision. Like what? Like the level of commitment, whether or not we're at a financial stage to be able to have children, my fears about the pain of childbirth, all these kinds of things. So it was more or less the straw that broke the camel's back on the decision is the fact that we have such limited time to change the fate of the world, essentially.

What do you think, though, of Sarah's assessment, and she is the expert here, that in fact it's consumption that's the issue, not the sheer number of people? I completely agree with that. So I'm actually a PhD researcher in reproductive health. You're an expert too, then. Yeah.

Hopefully. And my concern is the discussion about overpopulation as the problem, because that conversation tends to lead to discussions about where population is growing, as she said, in sub-Saharan Africa. And the fact that we then, the logical conclusion is, oh, they should stop having children. And oftentimes this conversation devolves into really quite racist discussions about people living in the global south. And I think it's very difficult to have these conversations without acknowledging the history of the environmental movement being about eugenics and racism ever since the population bomb was written by Paul Elric. Right, so sorry, I'm not aware of that research. You're saying that the environmental debate has sprung from a eugenics perspective. Well, I mean more like certain perspectives that bring into the conversation the idea that certain people should stop having children.

Yeah, OK. No, I get that. Thank you very much for making that point, Olivia. Certainly, yes, we're obviously more than keen to avoid any racist element to this conversation, although I take the listener's point that it can unfortunately arise. Let's go to Hertfordshire. Emma, Emma, good morning to you. Hello. Now you're going to talk about the fact that as a child, child free woman, you feel judged or have felt judged? Very much so. And I would say that my feeling is that we as a society should be moving towards being more supportive of those women who decide not to have children. That we are still a society and also a government that constantly refers to hardworking families as if those of us who don't have children or of course those of us who don't even have partners are somehow less valuable than those who are raising a family and I totally

respect the decisions of other women to become mothers and I want them to respect the decisions of those of us who decide not to become mothers. Emma, thank you very much. Now, I'm interested in that, Anna, because when Harry and Meghan, we had a phone in on Harry and Meghan only last week, in fact, mentioned that they were only going to have two children, guess what? They were mocked for that as well. Yeah, I think it's difficult, isn't it? And I've had a lot of comments to say, oh, you'll change your mind or, oh, you're very selfish for not wanting to have children. And, oh, you therefore must be judging other people who do choose to have families. And none of that's true. You know, this is a personal decision, but it's a personal decision that's made with awareness of what having a family and particularly having a large family means. And actually, I'm really proud of Harry

and Meghan for making that decision, but also being very vocal about it. Because what we often do is shy away from discussing the issue of population when it comes to climate change. And by them saying, we're only going to have two for the sake of the environment, they opened up that dialogue quite a lot, which I think is very brave of them and has helped definitely. You can take part on Twitter at BBC Women's Hour. Kate says, would you stop having kids to save the planet? I'm so angry at the demonisation of women in sub-Saharan Africa, a term I hate. Please somebody point out that consumption is the crucial issue. Well, I think that has been already pointed out several times during the course of the programme. Tricia says somewhat cynically, could you do a

programme on are you considering dying sooner to save the planet? Well, to that point, what do you say to Tricia, actually, Sarah? Well, I also want to come back and talk about sub-Saharan Africa, but we can talk about dying sooner. So I think we have to be very, very careful that we've always had long lived people on the planet. And part of being a civilized society is that we enable everybody, that's what we aim for, to live long, healthy lives. And the idea that we're going to have, if you like, some kind of eugenic where when you hit 50, you should consider leaving the planet because there are too many people, I think is taking us into a world where we shouldn't even go. But let's go back to this issue about sub-Saharan Africa. And the reason I use sub-Saharan Africa is I'm a demographer and that is a technical term. We talk about sub-Saharan Africa. And that caller who was talking about the linking environment and population is actually very true. One of the problems, I think, is that in the 1990s, there was this view that the rich countries were saying to the poorer countries, I'm sorry, you've got to stop having children.

And that really set the whole debate back. We don't talk about that anymore. And in fact, I was very careful at the beginning to use the language that we always use, which is empowering women to make the choice how many children they would like to have. And in blunt terms, the better educated you are, the fewer children you are going to have. That is consistent across the world, that as education in Asia, Latin America and Africa has increased for girls, so they have had the choice

and they have reduced the number of children. Let's go back to the course. Vivian in Norfolk. What happened to you or what decision did you make, Vivian? Oh, hi, Jane. Yes, I'm in a funny position of agreeing with everybody that's spoken so far. Yes, I'm 70, in the 70s, when I met my first husband, we had decided politically that we weren't going to have children. And I definitely meant it. So I had my fallopian tubes severed. And sadly, 10 years on, that marriage fell apart. When I met my second husband, which was also through politics, I saw him so differently and really realized this was the man I wanted to be

the father of my child. And I don't know where that came from. This had never been part of my life plan. I had nothing against kids, but I'd always felt everyone had too many. And I couldn't see that they had anything to do with my life. I'd been a midwife, nurse teacher, worked with children and all the usual things. But suddenly biology kicked in and I thought this is just so bizarre. And thanks to Mr. Winston at the Hammersmith, one of my tubes was repaired and we successfully had a wonderful daughter.

Right. And it's so strange. I come from a long line of women who didn't want children. That's absurd in itself. You come from a long line of women who didn't want children. That's absurd in itself. You come from a long line of women who didn't want children. Yes, absolutely. And my daughter, who is now 36, 35 last year, which was the age when I had her, had exactly the same view. She and her husband were a very happy and contented professional couple. They'd not had the discrimination, thank goodness, that your other callers have had. I think there's a lot more young people now who are very accepting of people who don't have children.

But children have just never been part of their life plan. And suddenly she was in an art gallery, saw a painting, and just fell apart. And she rang me and she said mum I want a baby and this is having previously discussed how would I feel about not being a grandmother and I said nothing to do with me you know I'm not bothered but one way or the other. Vivian that's a fascinating slice of life thank you let me just put that to Anna um that compulsion that seemingly comes out of nowhere, you want a baby. Yeah, I really, I understand that.

And that has never happened to me, that kind of absolute pang of, God, I have to reproduce. And I understand that the caller there talking about how your relationships change that. And actually, most of the men I've been with have also felt the same as me about having families or either haven't been bothered or just actively haven't wanted children. One relationship did break up because he wanted children and he didn't believe that I...

Well, he respected the fact that I didn't want children, but he didn't believe that I didn't want his children, so that didn't last very long. Yes, there are two sides to put the climate first. And my particular contribution to that is lessening my carbon footprint as far as I possibly can in every aspect and not having children as part of it. I am just looking at tweets coming in now. And I know we've got loads of calls. So thank you both very much for that. We're going to go back to the phone lines in a moment.

There's just one tweet here I just wanted to read out from a new mom. It's Claire on Twitter who says, The climate change issue is in the forefront of my mind. I am really worried about the world my new son will be living in when he's an adult. And this has led me to change many of my behaviours to become more environmentally friendly. We are going to go to Alison. Alison, I think you also had a change of heart, didn't you? Good morning.

Good morning. My change of heart was forced upon me by circumstance. Go on. I, through my 20s, was convinced that the planet's resources were going to run out, owing to overpopulation and overuse, and was determined I didn't want children. However, I married a man without having had the discussion before we got married. I see. And we then proceeded after a month or two to have violent arguments. He was desperate to have children coming from a very large family, and I came from a normal-sized family,

and I felt that my brother and sister had already had children, and I wasn't really that interested in having children, and I had better things to do, and I felt that too many people on the planet was not good for it. So I had made that decision but then not discussed it with my fiancé. And what happened? We were still in the middle of having regular discussions about it when the contraception failed and I became pregnant and I'm also of the opinion that if you are pregnant it's up to you entirely what you do but I'd always said that if I did get pregnant I would never have an abortion and so I had my child and because I didn't want him to be an only child because my mother had

been an only child, I then had another one. And I have to say, it's the best thing that ever happened to me. Alison, I'm sure a lot of parents will echo that sentiment. On Twitter, Peter says, speak up for stepchildren and adopted children, the most sustainable form of recycling imaginable, he says. And they're all perfectly lovable too, that's lovely. And Claire, on the same point, so many children need loving, fostering and adoptive homes.

Not all children are birth children. That is something well worth remembering, of course. I just want to bring in Becky because Becky is on the point of thinking about all this, possibly coming to a decision. Becky, good morning to you. Yes, yeah, trying to anyway. You're 27. yeah um yeah well

just i wanted to kind of call him because i suppose i'm i feel like i'm sort of coming to the point where all of these decisions are going to be sort of very relevant to me and i have been for a while now sort of debating you know where i feel that on you know on the fence in terms of you know should i or should i not and climate climate and the kind of, you know, the impact of bringing another person into the world is very much at the kind of forefront of my decisions and what I'm weighing up at the moment. And I think, you know, within that, there's a few different things. And I feel kind of, you know, very strongly as a kind of climate side on one side is pushing me in a direction. But, you know, I can't help but deny there is a part of me that would also,

would like to go ahead and have children, but that there's a part of me that feels like actually there is an element of selfishness in that in some sense. And probably, you know, some people might hate me for saying that, but... Okay, Sarah's shaking her head at that mention of selfishness.

So, Sarah. Well, I mean, I think what I'm really worried about, although obviously, you know, I really respect people like Anna because they have made this decision, but I would hate young women who would like to have children to feel that they can't have children

because they've got to save the planet because there are so many other things that you can do. And I think having children, as I say, in this country, it is a choice and it's a wonderful thing. And if you have that child, just make it a low consumption child. And if you really feel so concerned about overpopulation, then give money to NGOs, work for an NGO, set up an enterprise to help African women. I mean, there are so many other things that we can do. But if you really, really want a child, then, you know, I don't think you should be frightened into not having a child or feeling guilty because you want that child.

Well, I don't. Well, I guess the thing is, I don't know if I do or I don't at this point in time. And I do appreciate what you're saying. But I think coming back to what some of the people were saying on Twitter, I wholeheartedly agree that there's so many people out there who seem, you know, who seem kind of conflicted on this decision and what they should do. And I think, you know, this point around, why aren't more people kind of considering, you know, adoption and fostering adoptions? I definitely am. You know, that's actually almost my kind of first port of call, I think, before thinking about, you know,

having my own biological children. I think it's, we live in a society where people are so kind of occupied with, you know, having their own children. And just, I think people need to be aware of well actually you can be doing you know something fantastic and you know having less of an impact on on population if you explore those options i don't know why more people don't think of those initially before kind of jump into the assumption that i'm i'm going to have my own best of luck to you becky whatever decision you reach um joyce i know is has got to go she's got a busy life

Joyce, good morning to you Good morning Now, tell us what you think about all this Well, when I was growing up in the 1960s my mother said, one thing, don't ever have more than replacement level children I said, what's replacement level? She said, well when the mother and father dies, two children so you don't have a net contribution to the global population. And so my sister had one child and I had none.

And I feel the discrimination. I don't have any regrets, but there's such a focus on children. The number of television programs about children, that every politician says families, not people or individuals, families this, families that. And yet, when you go to theater, it's much easier to get a nice seat if you're single than if you have a group. So it's worked for me. Yeah. if you have a group. So it's worked for me. And I get really sort of disgusted when I see people having four or five children

and then getting angry in the newspapers that their kids can't get into the school of their choice. Well, if they had one or two, maybe they would get into the school. So this talk of consumption, I think it has to be relative to the communities where you live in. Obviously, the huge queues at the hospitals and the schools and all this kind of stuff have to do with population, overpopulation.

Okay, Joyce, thank you very much. let me put that overpopulation point to Sarah there are just too many of us says Joyce. Well I think to a certain extent if you look at it globally that is correct. In Europe however our population would be declining if we didn't have migration. Well Deborah on Twitter says in this country we are having or we are reaching a caring crisis we need more babies. Yes so one of the reasons why both France and the UK are actually relatively young is because we've always had a very healthy immigration into our country. And we have not replaced ourselves in this country since 1976. So our population would have shrunk without migration.

Without migration. Now, obviously, migration causes problems at the local level and integration and the rest of it. Well, but on the other hand, if from a demographic point of view, that's how the world could solve this problem by balancing out its population so that those high reproductive countries, people were free to come to the ageing countries in the Northern Hemisphere. So when you say we're overpopulated, we're overpopulated because we overconsume the Earth's resources and we clearly cannot continue that. But we could solve a lot of the problems around the ageing population

if we enabled people to move more freely around our planet. Anna? Yes, a lot of people do say the answer to the ageing population is to have more children. But of course, that only defers the problem and it creates other problems. So, yes, it's about restructuring. It's about balancing out, as you said. And also, we can't forget that we're in a climate crisis. And one of the effects of climate crisis is going to be migration, economic, sorry, climate migrants.

That's going to be a massive problem. Well, I have to say, going back to Chris Packham's Horizon tomorrow, BBC Two, nine o'clock. There are some, frankly, well, he describes Lagos in Nigeria. And this is quite an emotive phrase, but Chris Packham calls it pre-apocalypse earth in the interview he's given to the Radio Times this week, previewing that programme. There are also scenes from Sao Paulo in Brazil with communities getting together to buy their own, fund their own well. This is stuff, frankly, to my shame, I knew nothing about. It's grim, to put it mildly, Anna. It's really grim, yeah.

And, I mean, this stuff has been developing for decades and we've kind of known about it, and we have known about it, and we've taken not the necessary action. Now we're getting to the stage where there are, you know, the bushfires in Australia, perhaps that is us in the West waking up, hopefully. But these are things that have been affecting

the human race for a long, long time and that we desperately need to address. And one of the things, you know, yes, I've chosen not to have a family, but that doesn't mean that I don't have children in my life who i care about i'm terrified for the future of my niece and nephews you know i and and i know that they're gonna they're gonna have a very difficult life ahead of them and that's something that we okay can i put that to you i mean anna is clearly and sincerely worried you've got three children um are you as worried as Anna is about what lies ahead for these young people?

Yes, I am. And in fact, one of the things I say in the Horizon programme tomorrow is that unless we can get the institutional framework of our globe working together, we will have real problems because the inequality in our world is extraordinary. And that's one of the things that the program brings up.

So we currently have a billion people on this planet who are dying through famine and malnutrition and a billion people who are dying through diseases caused through obesity. So we have such an unequal planet. And when we look at the growth that we're going to come, particularly from the African subcontinent, the sub-Saharan African bit of it, it at the moment is a very, very low-consuming society. It is unthinkable that those people will not raise their consumption as they should, even if they came halfway to how we live here in Europe.

And that's why the pressure on the planet is going to get so acute. Not only more and more people, potentially 12 billion. I think that is not an unlikely scenario, but also the increase in consumption that the poorer people on this planet just really have to. We have to accept that's going to happen. That is the voice of Professor Sarah Harper, who's director of the Oxford Programme on Fertility, Education and Environment. Also with us in the studio, this is Woman's Hour, by the way, is Anna Hughes, who is child-free for environmental reasons. Let's go to London, elsewhere in London, Florence. Florence, good morning to you. Yes, good morning. Thank you. I think you are from Uganda, aren't you, Florence? Yes, I'm from Uganda. I've been living here for like four years now. Tell us what you

think then. Women want to stop being child bearers and child railers. It's what's happening out there. But it's not coming to an end. And the population keeps on increasing. And this is affecting everything, our way of life. People rely, in my country, about 97% of the people rely on wood fuel. We are destroying the forest. In Nigeria, 50% have disappeared. And people have begun to realize that, wow, our population really is really directly linked

to whatever is happening at the moment, you know? I come from a family of, I don't know, I can't even tell you, like, we have about, what, 15 children? Some of them, I don't even know, like, my mother gave birth, my father. So it's a total mixture. Yes. We need help out there. And when people talk about, you know, racism,

talking about population, I don't mean population does not mean that it's racist. For me, as someone who has come from a family where people are just giving birth, rearing children, no prospects for the future, you're just stuck out there. I believe that reducing fertility is really important, and not only because of its, you know, consequences for economic prosperity, but because, you know, the high fertility in diminishing, you know, the impact of high fertility in diminishing the freedom of people, particularly young

women. So Florence, what would you say about better education and better access to contraception in countries like Uganda? Is anything changing? Well, it's changed actually, because right now we've reduced our fertility. Like in the 90s, it was as high as seven other women were giving, you know, 10, 11, 12 children. Right now, it has come down to 5.4. That's the average, but it's still, you know, high. The UN says, you know, they're high fertility countries.

It's still very high. And it's been balanced out across the country. Most women would really like to use contraceptives, but they don't have the opportunity. And of course, education, it's also improving, by the way, right now, but still poor quality education. Some can't access. Young girls drop out, you know, as early as, you know, in primary four, primary three. They never finish primary seven. And yet, you know, the longer you stay in school, the better your chances. Because uneducated, empowered woman in the end will always choose to have fewer children.

Of course, yeah. And it's really important, not only for their lives, but also for the planet, their health. We have a high maternal mortality rate, and that's because we do not choose contraceptives. Girls get married as early as 13, 14. No one cares. They get, you know, of course, when you give birth,

when you're young, you know what happens, obstetric fistula, you die. That's why, you know, we have that high infant mortality and infant mortality. Florence, thank you very much. I really welcome your contribution

because Florence knows that. She has lived that experience. Marilyn is in South London. And Marilyn, well, you've had two children, am I right? Yes, that's right. I have had two children. Just listening to Florence, I was reminded of an amazing geography teacher back in the 70s, who introduced me to the whole business of overpopulation. And on the basis of that, we decided to only have two children, which, and this was a huge surprise to me, I absolutely adored being pregnant. I absolutely adored the process of giving birth. And I grieved

all the way through my second pregnancy, the fact that we weren't going to be doing this again. But it's something that I felt so strongly about. I felt we could only really replace ourselves, given the state that the planet was kind of even in those days. I was aware there was an issue. And it's a sacrifice. If you adore having children, you just have to find other ways of being in touch. I went on to become an antenatal, postnatal teacher and I had kind of care of other people, about 500 babies, which was wonderful. So when you hear the very passionate views of young women like Anna, what would you say to Anna? She's right here. I think everybody has to make their own decisions, really. You know, I respect everybody's view. I think we just have to be really aware of the situation that we're living in. But can I just go back to, I mean, this is emotive stuff, but to that compulsion to become a mother.

You understand this because you enjoyed the process. I did. There's no high like it, Marilyn. You and I know that. When you see your newborn child, no man will ever experience that. It's something off the scale of joy, surely. It is, but it isn't for everyone. And, you know, I was unexpectedly pregnant the

first time. And I was really frightened about whether I would like it, whether I would love the baby, whether I would be a good mother. I mean, it completely was a surprise. If I'd never become pregnant, would I have missed it? I don't know. Yeah, well, actually, I was talking to Anna earlier. You're a vegan, aren't you? We were talking about the joy of cheese. And you just pregnant would I have missed it I don't know yeah well actually I was talking to Anna earlier you're a vegan aren't you as well we were talking about the joy of cheese and you just gently um I know you can't compare children and cheese or maybe you can um but you just said you know um don't have cheese anymore don't miss it yeah and of course you've never had children so you know what you're not you can't miss what you're honestly listening to what Marilyn's saying it sounds like

a harder decision for her to make than it is for me. You know, to want, to desperately want to have more children and to stop it too, that is so, I have so much admiration for that decision. And yeah, I mean, arguably, I have an easier choice of it because I just simply have not had children at all. Yeah, it's really, really interesting. Thank you very much, Marilyn.

It's a pleasure. Take care of yourself. Jean in Cumbria. On adoption, Jean, good morning to you. Good morning. Yes, tell us, you have adopted children? Yeah, so our adopted children have been with us for two and a half years. My husband already has children from a previous relationship. And we decided when we were, you know, when we met, we wanted children.

I was older, but I could have still had children. And we always said we would try for one potentially, but we would want to adopt as well. And I suppose my experience from it is that, you know, we've ended up adopting kids. We've given these two children such a wonderful life, not praising myself, but more the fact that, you know, I'm experiencing motherhood.

And if I could influence anyone out there with that sort of absolute desperation to have a child, why would you not consider adoption? I mean, you know, there are so many children in care. Our adoption numbers supposedly are dropping at the moment due to all sort of fertility treatments and the availability of fertility treatments out there. And I think sometimes the lady before was talking about the process of being pregnant and everyone experiencing that. And, you know, the sort of compulsion to become a mother. You can still become a mother. You may not experience that bit, but I'm not sure that's enough

to, you know, to not adopt children. You know, I wouldn't consider that. My husband is often, and I often ask him about the experience of having, you know, his blood children and his adoptive kids, and does it feel different? I suppose I am intrigued by that.

And he absolutely assures me, and I know obviously he didn't give birth to his first two children, that the feeling and the love and the passion you have for the children is almost identical. Well, he says it's identical, actually. And they've only been with us two and a half years.

And so if I could influence anyone out there that has that desperate need to become a mum please please consider adoption. Well do you know what I can hear Jean in your voice not not just the enthusiasm but the absolute joy of what you've done for those children and will continue to do I'm sure. Are they at school at the moment? Yeah they're at school this morning and then we would like to consider to maybe adopt one of their um other siblings actually as well and bring their family together because i've been recently reading about how children who are split up from siblings really

impacts them in fact i think there was a program on radio four about that only yesterday an edition of file on four if i'm not wrong yeah and yeah and i was listening to that and my heart goes out to you know children that are split from from the siblings and how that can um you know develop into other issues but I I just feel that it's not talked about enough it's not considered enough there are so many children out there with the desperate need to I've always thought you know if you were to have a child um you know in a in a sort of relationship with someone why would you not consider if you were considered to have a second child Why would you not consider, if you were considering to have a second child,

why would you not adopt a second child? Passionate stuff, Jean. Thank you very much. That was File On 4 yesterday evening on Radio 4. You can find it on BBC Sounds, of course. There we go, on Message Mandy with the first mention of BBC Sounds in this edition of Woman's Hour.

Catherine. Hi, Catherine. Good morning. Hello there. Hi. Now. Good morning. Hello there. Hi. Now, tell me. Go on. I was just really going to say that I'm 57 years old. And we decided when I was 28, my husband and I, that we weren't going to have children because we didn't feel that the world was going to be sustainable. And we felt that it was a very difficult future for children.

But given that you love your child more than anything else in the world, I felt that I couldn't inflict that on another generation. But instead, I was sterilised at 28 by a doctor who just had a little boy. That was a bit of an interesting thing. And did the doctor try to persuade you against it? Yes, he did. Yes, he did. But I was so determined. I think it's unusual for a doctor to take the word of a 28-year-old like that, but he did, and I've not regretted it.

I've got dogs instead, and I've had a lifetime of teaching. So I work with other children, other people's children. And it's a great joy. Well, that sounds terrific. Well done to you, Catherine. Made the right decision for herself. Anna, what do you think of that? I recently considered actually sterilisation

and I haven't been sterilised. I just used contraception but um it's it is a really interesting question because I and I spoke to the doctor and you know she didn't really blink actually because I maybe it's because I'm in my late 30s now rather than in my late 20s but I mean she did say you know you're gonna have to have a consultation with a gynecologist and all that kind of stuff but um yeah it I don't know is it because it's too absolute because it's too final that you know um something about the word yeah it's not yes that's true actually it's quite invasive and something that you know if you don't have to go through it then why would you kind of

yeah well i think what's interesting is so many of the callers have had this choice and and to me and we're privileged to have and we're incredibly privileged and and when you listen to someone like Florence who was in Uganda yeah that to me is is the real crux that we have all these women who simply have no choice and and she talked about Uganda and one of the studies we looked at were Niger where 11 year old girls leave school married at 12 often to the father's friend, and then they start having children. First child, 13, 14. Many of them have childbirth problems or they die before they reach 20.

And that's, I think, where we should all be focusing, to enable everyone to have the choice that, for example, you and I do. I have three children, you have none, but we both were able to make that choice. And that's what's so important. It is so important. And I hope that we can make informed choices, though. That's something that I feel is very important because we need to be aware of the impact that our choices will then have upon the planet and upon the future of the human race. And yeah, making an informed choice is the most important thing, I think. And not judging other people, whatever their choice. Claire in York. Hi, Claire, good morning.

Oh, hi there. Now, you're one of seven siblings. That's correct, yes. Right. I don't know whether that's impacted on the decisions you've made, but anyway, tell me. Yeah, I'm one of seven. I'm actually a twin, so me and my twin were born last, and mum basically had six pregnancies over ten years, so not through her own choice I have to

say but the decision I made wasn't really based upon anything to do with the planet but I could see that having an overcrowded house was actually quite difficult. But the point I actually wanted to make was that when I go to see children at Christmas or on their birthdays, I'm quite astounded by the amount of stuff that is given to them, a lot of which contains plastic. And the number of presents that are given and the parties that they have where they have sort of these goodie bags. When we were children, our parents used to give us one present at most and they were usually made from materials recycled, like my mother made us dolls from her surgical stockings. They're great. I think we need to know how she did that, Claire.

That's something we could probably make a film of for the Women's Hour website. But anyway, carry on. Yeah, so I think, you know, when people have children, I wish that people would think more about the gifts that they give and not give quite so many and maybe make them from materials that they already have in order to at least reduce the impact that they're having on the planet for obvious reasons. Yeah, I think, well, that is the crux of the matter, isn't it, really? I mean, we're never, you're not going to change your mind, Anna,

and we're not going to attempt to do, it's none of our business. And Sarah is equally certain that actually what Britain needs is for people to carry on having two children. Yes, yes. Well, I mean, ideally, you know, people should have one or two children if that's what they want. You did have three. I had three. I wanted three. I'm one of three. and I'm also vegan, and I try not to fly, I try not to buy clothes, I try to recycle,

and I think that's what, in this country, adding in, it is about consumption, and if you really want to have a child, then I think you shouldn't be pressurised or frightened into not having that child, but make sure your household is a low-consuming household, and I think, in a way, there are so many choices that we have how to reduce our carbon footprint that we're very, very fortunate. But we now need action to make sure that we do it.

And we don't want to be too pessimistic because I think actually, as Chris Packham's Horizon points out, Anna, one of those children, one of these children born somewhere in the world today, tomorrow, next week, next month, may well come up with the solution to the very real problems we clearly do face as a planet. Well, yes, people have said that to me before, actually. I hate to be unoriginal, but I say it often now. I'm so sorry, Jane. Why don't you have children? Because they might be the solution if you care that much about the planet. But actually, I mean, you know, there are 7.7 billion people and counting already. And surely one of them will probably the chances are that one of them will be the one.

But again, there isn't just one person who can solve all this. You know, we have Greta Thunberg, who's now the kind of face of climate change action. And have things really changed since she came into the... people know who she is. Yes, our awareness has raised a huge amount, but where's our government policy to back it up? It's still shifting slowly. So, yes, I am certain that the solution to our climate woes already lies within our power.

Anna Hughes and our other guest this morning was Sarah Harper. I thought they were both great, actually, really interesting and brilliant speakers. And thanks to you two for all your contributions, which came in and kept on coming in. And this is anonymous. I would have thought it's a no-brainer. Overpopulation equals overconsumption.

The two go hand in hand. The more people there are, the more is consumed by those people. Land is consumed to house and feed populations. And these populations are ever-growing. It has become a vicious circle. You only have to look at old maps and the growth of various cities since Elizabethan times. My husband and I decided to have one child of our own and to adopt our second. I then asked to be sterilised to ensure I would not become pregnant

again. It might not have suited everyone, but it's worked for us. Another listener, this is GB. It's a long email, largely about CO2, but their conclusion is, while cleaning up our own environment is commendable and overdue, it is surely fruitless to try to reduce CO2 in the atmosphere without addressing the population component. From a listener called Jane, limiting the number of children we have is the one thing every one of us on the planet can do to make the biggest and most positive contribution to help save the planet from further damage. Unfortunately, we've already gone beyond the point of no return and have done terrible damage, as we all know. We need to stop the population growth now at the very least, and then ideally work towards reducing it. Here's a tweet on adoption.

Teresa says, how is adoption better for the environment? Population increase will not be curbed by increasing adoptions. Using children as a way to be environmentally friendly is tasteless. Instead, get to the root cause so that no child will ever have to be given up for adoption. Another listener, my partner and I have decided not to have children in large part. It's because of our fears for the future of our planet. It isn't the only reason, but it's a very significant one. Another caller, not caller, sorry, emailer, I'm getting in touch regarding the phone in. I have chosen not to have my own children because there are enough humans already on this planet, which is putting pressure on the environment and wildlife. And from a man, a man, it's Jeff, who says, human population is the only answer. Consumption by an ever-increasing mass of people cannot be

met by the limited resources of the planet. Increasing food production will only lead to an increasing population, which cannot go on indefinitely. It's a basic biological principle which everyone should be taught in secondary school. A listener called Wendy says, when I was young, families were celebrated and supported, but religion demanded that women should not use contraception. So, so many had ridiculously huge numbers of children and terrible gynecological problems. Now it's spoken of as a lifestyle choice, like having a pet or a particular sort of house. I'm glad you were picked up on your comment about only women having that incredible special moment when a baby is born. Men can have it too, that amazing emotion. And many men go on

to make better parents. Yes, I suppose I actually, when I said that, and I absolutely appreciate it, I did say it. I did also say that I've been called out on it as well. I'm not sure that a man can know what it's like to actually, well, a man can know what it's like to actually, well, they can't know what it's like to actually have someone else come out of their own bodies. I mean, I'm not putting that very poetically, but I think those of you who've been through it will know what I mean.

I know men are delighted, elated at that point, but I'm not sure they can feel it in quite the same way. Look, who knows? I'll never be a man, so I won't know. This is from Andy. I'm a busy mum to five grown-up children. I cared that they would contribute more to the world than they take, and they do in their different ways.

I can't say that this was all planned, but I can say responsibility and love and care has been a given. They all seem very proud of each other and help each other as needed. And us parents, no worries. But as they grew up at home, resources were always squeezed to the limit. I would say you have what you need, but not always what you want. They would ask, why did you have so many children? And I would reply, so who would you say we shouldn't have had? And that's my point, says Andy.

Thank you for that. As I say, I could have gone on for hours. Nobody wants that. Trying to sum up all your thoughts this morning, but thank you all very much. Obviously, the stuff we didn't get to, I'm hoping we'll feature on the programme either later this week or next week,

about what happens when governments do attempt to control populations. We know that happened in India and in China. And now some Western European governments are desperate to increase their populations and they're putting pressure on women. And that's not going down well either. So still much to get to on this topic. But thanks to everybody who took part this morning. We're back tomorrow. And amongst other things, we're talking about modest fashion. What does that expression mean to you?

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Anna Delvey was due to inherit $67 million. I'm so excited about what the future holds. She secured huge investments for a project in New York. She was very confident in her words. And yet, it was all a lie. She's a con artist. Join journalist Vicky Baker as she delves into a real-life scandal.

We'll mix drama with documentary to tell the story of Anna Delvey's rise and fall. Fake Heiress, a new six-part podcast on BBC Sounds. I was watching this whole thing happen thinking it can't be true. Download the free app to listen. I'm Sarah Trelevan and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody

out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.