Woman's Hour - Plaque for women priests, Young women coming off the Pill, Electric cars

Episode Date: March 14, 2022

On Saturday a ceremony took place at Bristol Cathedral to replace a plaque that marked the day women priests were first ordained by the Church of England, in 1994. The original plaque only listed the names of the men who attended the ceremony, and not the 32 women who had made history that day. Almost 30 years later, the plaque finally displays the women’s names. Emma speaks to Reverend Angela Berners-Wilson, the first woman to be ordained by the church, and the Bishop of Bristol, Right Reverend Vivienne Faull, who led the ceremony on Saturday.A pregnant woman who was photographed being carried on a stretcher - following the bombing of a maternity hospital in the southern port of Mariupol in Ukraine last Wednesday - is reported to have died, along with her baby. The attack on the hospital caused outrage around the world. 4000 children have been born in Ukraine since the war began nearly three weeks ago. Emma is joined by Louise Callaghan, Foreign Correspondent at The Sunday Times. Marked as a breakthrough in female contraception the Pill has been used for over six decades. 28% of women say it remains their preferred form of contraception, followed closely by the male condom. However, more recently on social media some young women are documenting their decisions to come off it. Emma is joined by Dr Jane Dickson, Consultant in sexual and reproductive health care, and former vice president of the Faculty of Sexual and Reproductive Healthcare, and Lottie Drynan who stopped taking the pill just over a year ago, after being on it for 13 years, and has been documenting her journey on Instagram.We know that women are more environmentally conscious when shopping for the household - but there’s one area where that doesn't seem to be the case - cars. There are now over 600,000 plug-in electric vehicles in the UK, but a new study has found that 20% of women haven’t even considered buying an electric car. We speak to Erin Baker, Editorial Director at AutoTrader about why women are less likely to opt for electric vehicles.It's been deemed a 'victory for women'. A campaign group has won a legal challenge against the Metropolitan Police over the force's handling of a vigil for Sarah Everard. Sarah Everard was murdered by serving Met police officer Wayne Couzens - and the vigil was to be near where she was killed in Clapham in London during Covid lockdown. But when the group got in contact with the police they were told that it would be illegal and could face fines over 10,000 pounds each and possible prosecution. So they cancelled the original plan but a spontaneous vigil and protest took place anyway. Anna Birley, the founder of Reclaim These Streets speaks to Emma.

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Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. While it might be a new week, fighting in Ukraine shows no sign of abating. If anything, the opposite, as the war moved to the frontiers of European Union and NATO yesterday when Russia bombed a military base less than 15 miles from the Polish border. But how are you keeping up to date with it? Are you listening? Are you reading? Are you watching? Maybe none of those things, perhaps from the beginning or maybe at this point. But often it is images which bring particular moments of clarity and engagement during a bombardment.

And one such image was taken last week of a pregnant woman being stretched from her maternity ward after Russia bombed the maternity and children's hospital where she was meant to give birth in Mariupol. You may recall it, it was last Wednesday and the image taken showed a woman lying on a red and black spotty piece of material, hand below her large stomach with her head on one side, looking extremely pale. We don't know her name but we do know as of this morning, as you've just heard in the news, that she and her child have died. They did not make it. In a moment, I'll be talking to a correspondent

about what she's been seeing and finding and some of the stories that are cutting through and making this war very real indeed. But it is often one image or report that will stay in your mind. And I wanted to ask you this morning, after we learnt what happened to that woman on that stretch, or certainly some of it what has it been for you what has been that moment in this particular war and perhaps how you are

engaging or trying to engage or maybe disengaging as a way of perhaps engaging better tell me about where you are with this as we nearly reach the three-week point since Russia invaded Ukraine 84844 is the number you need to text me here at Woman's Hour. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour or email me through the Woman's Hour website. Also on today's programme, I'll be talking to one of the women's rights campaigners who is celebrating a court victory. We spoke to her just as she was going into the court. We'll hear what happened next and also what it could mean for you. The female pioneers in the Church of England reunite

to rewrite history and coming off the contraceptive pill, why certain women are turning their backs and documenting it on social media. But in the last two hours, a pregnant woman who was photographed being carried on a stretcher is reported to have died along with her baby. The attack on her hospital, a maternity and children's hospital in Maripol last Wednesday caused outrage around the world. I'm now joined by Louise Callaghan, foreign correspondent at the Sunday Times. Currently in Istanbul, Louise has been in Ukraine for the last month and only left a day and a half ago and she intends to return to Ukraine shortly. Louise, good morning. Hi, good morning. I recognise this story is only just broken but it was a very striking image. Many people connected with it, didn't they?

Absolutely and I think for someone like me who covers conflict and for my colleagues as well, it's so interesting to see the images that resonate with readers and viewers in the UK, because we sometimes see so many things like this that we become kind of inured to them. You know, the shock remains clear to us, but you know, you see women, children suffering, and it's just so hard to kind of comprehend or try to relay to viewers and readers in the UK how bad it is. But then sometimes these images come through and they grab people's imagination. And that's so, so important for relaying the reality of what it's like there on the ground. Indeed. And I recognise you're not particularly reported on this story, but what we do know and we don't know her name.

And one of the reasons for that is that the hospital said the woman's father and husband came to take her body away before they could ask. And again, she will just be an image in some ways, and I don't mean just, but I would much prefer if we knew more, if we knew her name, if we could perhaps humanise more. But it's impossible in so many ways at these times. Absolutely. And I think when you get these true kind of human stories where you can, there's something you can relate to as a reader or if you're in the UK, then it makes it much more real for you. And I think as well as this woman, there's also, of course, Mariana, who's the other patient at this hospital in Mariupol, who did survive and who did give birth to her baby. And then so there's always these as a it's a real mix, I think, of both tragedy and hope amidst all of this horror that's going on. And you have been reporting, I read your report yesterday in the Sunday Times about some of the women, men and children you've been meeting,

because perhaps people don't know this fact, it was within your piece, more than 4000 children have been born since the war began in the last near three weeks. That's according to the United Nations Population Agency, many of them in underground bunkers. What have you been hearing and reporting on with regards to that? Well, on the same day that that hospital in Mariupol was hit, I was in Mykolaiv, which is a city just down the coast, also in a maternity ward, just talking to doctors and patients patients they're writing about the situation and the crazy crazy thing is that the women who give birth in bunkers are the lucky ones that's what the hospital was saying to me the doctors there they said look if it's in relatively easy straightforward birth we can

take them down to the shelter underneath the hospital which is this kind of damp concrete bunker and we've got a delivery room there they can give birth and then at least they're safe from the bombardment because quite often during the night I mean in in Nikolaev and around the country there's very very strong bombardment at night time often the days are a little bit safer so if you give birth at night time then the days are a little bit safer. So if you give birth at nighttime, then the risks are higher. And I met a woman called Elena and her husband, Alexei. She was a graphic designer, 28 years old. She'd just given birth to Maria, her first daughter. And she had a slightly complicated birth. I mean, in the UK hospital, it would have been routine. It was a cesarean in the breech position.

But doctors had to operate on her. And then that became incredibly dangerous. They couldn't do it in the shelter. They had to take her up to the operating theatre on the fourth floor. Now, anyone who's been in a war zone knows that if there's bombs going off, if there's air raid sirens, you need to get under the ground. If you're high up, it increases the chances of you being hit from something coming from the air so these doctors and the medical staff the nurses midwives they're operating on this woman Elena at about 4am you know while there's shelling outside

while there's risk of bombardment at any time and they have to work in the half light because even though the windows are covered they're afraid that if they put the lights on too brightly it will shine through and they'll be targeted it's an extraordinary working environment never mind what the the woman and her family are going through and how much those doctors are having to deal with to try and deliver safely in a time of extreme hazard and you know that no one's making them stay there. That's the thing that gets me, you know, these women, of course, have to give birth, no one's forcing this doctors or medical staff, you know, everyone from nurses to midwives to, you know, cleaners, that no one's making them stay there. They could be at home with their families. They're making that choice every

single day to come in and work and save these patients' lives. Did they talk to you about that in terms of their own resilience and defiance? Because, of course, we hear much of, and we've talked about it ourselves last week, of particularly women bearing arms, women choosing not to get on the evacuation trains. Of course, you're not just talking about women when you're talking about doctors. You'll be talking about men as well. But what did they say to you about their reasons for being there? You know, one doctor told me, and I think this really resonated with me,

I said to him, wow, you're so brave. And he said, we have no choice but to be brave. That's what he thought. He felt like this position or this situation had been kind of forced on him. And he just felt like he had no other choice other than to get up every day and keep treating his patients.

Now, this particular doctor that i'm talking about his family uh was in a suburb of keeve and because it was just too dangerous to go back and forth to them every day because it goes close to the fighting he was just living at the hospital and that's the case with a lot of this medical staff they're leaving their families at home and they are just staying in the hospital every day they're working 24 48 hour shifts consistently because some of their colleagues maybe can't make it into work or some of their colleagues might have left but they are staying there every day there's a message that's just come in from mary that i wanted to share with you as a foreign correspondent saying you're not you're not always sure when you're so up close to it what will resonate what will cut through mary says my moment was during the first few days of the Ukraine war, hearing an ordinary man saying he'd

been planning to plant flowers on a Sunday, but now he was holding a gun. I was planning on gardening that day too. What's so striking about this invasion, now war, was how the Ukrainians were carrying on like normal right up until it happened? Absolutely. I mean, I was in Ukraine for a couple of weeks before the war started. And I was there because I was covering this threat. And of course, if you remember, there was this constant information from Western intelligence sources saying an invasion is imminent, it can happen any day. But I was in Kiev talking to people on the streets. And I just, I mean, no one thought it was going to because that's that's also the message that they were receiving from their leaders they were being told you know keep it calm carry on and hopefully nothing will happen so people were just not prepared at all and I think that um that is

something that did put a lot of people in a very difficult position this lack of preparation because you did literally go from one day you know you could go out and go to a cafe and go out to a nice restaurant you go eat sushi you know the caves are really kind of nice in the center it's very kind of uh kind of upper middle class uh city like Prague or Paris or something like that. And then to literally go from one day, everything seems relatively normal. It's a bit tense. People are a bit concerned, but normal. And then the next day there's a war on. There's explosions. You get woken up at five in the morning by bombs hitting.

That is a very, very, very big change and it's very difficult to adapt to. With the news yesterday with regards to the Polish border and the bombardment and concerns about the escalation of this, you're preparing to go back. Any view from yourself as to how or when this might come to some sort of an end? Oh, gosh, I don't know. And I don't think that anyone does. There's these talks which are set to happen now. And there's been some cautious optimism. But at the same time, we know that Russia has negotiated in very bad faith before. It's incredibly hard to know. I mean, I think like a lot of other correspondents who are working on this, we're expecting to be in this for the long run. I'm desperately hoping that I'm wrong and that this is over soon by some miracle. But it does look at the moment like it's going to carry on for a while.

And Louise, of course, just to say as well on a reporting point, you know, we read this weekend about an American journalist losing his life. And I wonder, you are someone who's reported on wars before, but how that news affects you and you each time? Well, obviously, it's a huge, overwhelming tragedy every time, you know, anyone dies in a conflict zone, especially a journalist, someone who can relate to so closely. But of course, this is something that we know there's a risk when we go out there and we do this reporting, we know that there is always a a risk you try your very best to mitigate the risk to plan to try and make smart decisions but of

course sometimes all the planning in the world can't help you you can just try your absolute best to do it as safely as possible brent reynolds that's the name of the american journalist if you hadn't quite seen that particular story louise callahan all the best to you i hope you are as as safe as possible. Thank you very much for your dispatches and giving us an insight in particular with this latest one, which you can catch up on on the Sunday Times, within a maternity hospital and how some of the women and the doctors are coping. 4,000 children, more than 4,000 children have been born since the war began. Louise Callaghan, foreign correspondent at the Sunday Times.

Carolyn says, with regards to the images that have cut through or left a lasting impression during the last near three weeks, she says, she writes to say on email, when I came across an image of two young children on a bus saying goodbye to their mother through the glass window, I felt so unbelievably upset and sad. The image affected me so very much. I haven't been able to shake that feeling since. As a mother, I felt such sadness. I simply found it hard to comprehend. More images that have really come across to you are also coming through. There's a particular video here from Liz who's listening of a Ukrainian boy being interviewed about the age of 10 on a bus talking about how he and his mum had left his dad behind

in Kiev. He said his dad would stay home and find things to sell. And he started to cry. He was so exhausted and bewildered, but that he was thankful to be on that bus because he was expecting to have to walk for three or four days to get to the border. And in terms of how you're keeping across this news, as we do nearly hit the three-week point,

I've mostly followed the news from Ukraine via Radio 4 and 5 Live. The reporter I will never forget will be the young boy whose mother had taken him to a safe place. When she told him he could make a wish, he replied that the war would end and President Putin would become a nice person. That's Helen in Bristol with her memory. And I have to say there's also others saying they just can't engage at the moment. Eleanor says, I can't listen. I'm sorry, Emma. It's making me sick to my stomach. It's too much for this new mum. And another one saying, Radio 3 is a saviour during these troubling times.

It's preservation paramount. It's just too much. What have been the moments for you? How are you engaging with this particular war? And how are you also trying to perhaps, I don't know, feel something, do something? I'm very aware that there's more details being released by the government today

with regards to refugees and people being able to take in refugees in their own homes. Of course, once they're actually able to get in to this country, perhaps it's in that respect. But not everyone can do that. Not everyone would do that. So, you know, I want to be where you are with this. And the reason we're talking about one particular image or one particular report, if it is such a thing, is because we've just heard the news in the last couple of hours about very striking image last week of a pregnant woman being stretched from her maternity ward after Russia bombed that particular maternity ward in Maripol she and her child have both died no names

were able to be gathered of her as her family came to pick her up before that information was gleaned. So that has just broken in the last couple of hours and you're very kindly getting in touch. Please continue to do so. You can do so by text, of course, as usual, 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate or on social media or via our website. But let's move to a court battle that actually we were hearing about from the steps of the court just before it was beginning. It's been deemed a victory for women.

The campaign group Reclaim These Streets has won a legal challenge against the Metropolitan Police over the force's handling of a vigil for Sarah Everard. Sarah Everard was murdered by serving Met Police officer Wayne Cousins just over a year ago. The vigil was

meant to be near where she was killed in Clapham in London during Covid lockdown. But when the group got in contact with the police, they were told it would be illegal to have such a gathering and could face fines of over £10,000 each and possible prosecution. So you may recall they cancelled the original plan, but a spontaneous vigil and protest took place anyway. The four women from Reclaim These Streets brought a legal challenge against the police for the handling of that. And when I did catch up with Anna Burley, the founder of Reclaim The Streets, the last time we spoke was just outside the Old Bailey and you were going in. And just before the weekend, Friday afternoon, I believe, you had the news that you had won. What have you won, Anna?

So we took our case against the Met. We originally took it back in last March and we had an urgent hearing from a judge that we felt that the police did not take heed of his interpretation of the law. And so we refiled, we were back in court, as you said, a few weeks ago. And what we've won is essentially, the judges have said that the Metropolitan Police were unlawful and

misinterpreted the law in every single one of their decisions leading up to the vigil, that they were misleading in the way they communicated with us, and that the effect of that was chilling and that it violated our human right to protest. So just to be clear, because it was a different time with lockdown rules, should your vigil have been able to go ahead? What should have happened is the police should have looked at us on a case by case basis and they should have considered whether they could facilitate a vigil while also meeting public health requirements. That meant they had to think about human rights

and they didn't do that. They may have reached the same conclusion, but I feel confident that we had enough in place around social distancing, stewarding, QR codes for track and trace, that we would have been able to go ahead safely and that we wouldn't have seen the scenes on TV of women being manhandled and pushed together by police officers had they worked with us in a cooperative manner. Although when that was looked at, the Metropolitan Police were cleared of any wrongdoing, not by court. Sorry, what were you going to say? Well, I was going to say they were cleared by the HMIC, which is police officers marking their own homework.

Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary, for people who don't work in there, your acronyms. No, I've had to learn them all really quickly as well. So I'm sorry about that. Yeah, it's police officers and former police officers reviewing the actions of the police. The court case hasn't gone, but I think there are some challenges going to court about how it was handled on the night as well. The Assistant Met Commissioner Louise Rolfe said the Met, with regards to this judgment, felt that the particular way that you were handled as women played into the decision of not to go ahead but also the way you were spoken to and is that what you're hoping could be different the next time for instance a group of women get together albeit hopefully will not be in lockdown circumstances to try and communicate with the metropolitan police or any other police force?

I believe we were seen as soft targets. We sought to work with them. And honestly, reflecting on that, I feel like we were punished by trying to play by the rules. But I do think, and it comes through in some of the language in that report into the decisions done by Her Majesty's Inspectorate, is that we were seen as naive young women, and treated as such. And I think that actually what we've been able to do is stand our ground,

show that women aren't going to back down in the face of being talked down to or dismissed or not worked with. And I think the other half is a precedent that we set around protest rights. That benefits women's rights, campaigners as well as any campaigners, because without the ability to protest,

without the ability to have our voices heard and to disrupt and challenge, we're not going to make progress. So the kind of bigger picture of the victory just before the weekend is that, hopefully, from your perspective. Although, what would you say to those who, yes, you did the right thing by going to the police to try to work within the rules that were on at the moment, but there will still be those who think it didn't need to happen at all, despite it springing up because of COVID? I do understand that. I think we were very clear that a vigil on women's safety

ought to have women's safety at its heart, and that has to apply in a public health context as well, which is why we put so much in place. I think there are wider principles around protest rights, whether it's COVID regulations or the police bill. Actually, they are something we need to defend and articulate the importance of at all opportunities. And I think what the judgment shows is that our institutions have to take them into account.

Our institutions cannot simply have a blanket ban because they don't like what we're protesting about or the way we're doing it. Do you think you were naive looking back to try and work within the rules, as you put it? No, I think, you know, I'm a local councillor as well as sort of activist and so on. And I know that when organisations pull in the same direction, it can have a better outcome. We had a really great response from the council. And that's honestly what I expected from the police as well. What I wanted was for the police to accept that there was a need to build trust in the context where a serving police officer had just been charged with Sarah's murder, that they would have made sure that they had predominantly female officers, that they had a policing plan that respected women's rights to be there. I didn't want women to be moved in on kettled um into the ground and you have to ask and if you don't get the answer that you think is right and the courts

have proven we were we were right in in expecting um then we found our ground we challenge we take it to we take it to high court it must have been quite an amazing feeling from your side of things on friday afternoon surreal the idea that you know there are all these press photographers It must have been quite an amazing feeling from your side of things on Friday afternoon. Surreal. The idea that, you know, there are all these press photographers there, cameras pointing in your face. Who are you here for? No, we're here for you. It's quite, it was a really great feeling and we felt vindicated. We've been told consistently for 12 months that we were wrong the police have doubled down dug their heels in close ranks and really pushed back and even had the audacity in the in the in the court hearing their lawyer said that we just misunderstood the word unlawful it didn't actually mean it was

illegal we we we were we misunderstood it and and so that sort of feeling of being gaslit for 12 months to have two judges unequivocally say, no, you were right to ask. Expect what you expected from this public institution. The people whose day job it is to understand and interpret the law misinterpreted and misunderstood it. And that's a really, we feel vilified. You talk about the importance of protest. There was another protest this weekend to mark that year on from the spontaneous vigil for Sarah Everard. Reports of a thousand rape alarms set off outside Scotland Yard.

I believe it was led by the feminist campaign group Sisters Uncut. Traffic was blocked. There was bright blue smoke flares and there was chants of Our Streets marching from Scotland Yard in London, of course, the headquarters of the Metropolitan Police to Charing Cross Police Station in central London.

Did you go to that? I wasn't able to, unfortunately, but I followed it closely. It looks like it had a real impact in terms of being able to raise some of the issues that need raising around police conduct, around communities that are over-policed, around women's safety. Yes, well, I mean, it'd be interesting to hear a bit more about perhaps where that's going to go and what's going to do.

I recognise that wasn't your one, but I wanted to make the point, you know, that had gone on this weekend in case people hadn't seen it. And just something else I wanted to get your view on while you're with me and all of us. Sadiq Khan, the Mayor of London,

was talking to my colleagues on the Today programme this morning about an initiative to start trying to teach boys in primary school about misogyny and how to treat girls. What do you make of that? I recognise this is a new announcement. He's also talked about football clubs displaying posters and graphics, especially in half time? I think they're both really good initiatives you know what we're seeing a shift from particularly with mayors perhaps more than government Andy Burnham's sort of done some similar work in Manchester as well is that rather than seeing violence against women and girls as something that can be fixed with a few streetlights rather than putting the onus on women to take measures to keep themselves safe actually what sadiq's announcements do is show that it's everyone's problem it's about tackling culture it's about changing male behavior and i think the consent stuff in

schools from primary age is really important and we're doing work with an organization called shout out in secondary schools where it's on the curriculum. But actually, if you get to 16 and you don't understand boundaries, it's too late. We need to be having conversations. You know, at the age where a boy pulls a girl's hair at a playground and says, oh, it's because he likes you, it's all right. Actually, that's the point at which we need to be having conversations about boundaries and respect.

And, you know, the converse applies. Boys should be able to cry and feel like it's not masculine to do so. Well, some of the other members of the government and also Conservative MPs would say that's not just about streetlights. You are, I believe, a Labour councillor. You're supporting Sadiq Khan there and Andy Byrne,

both of whom are from the same political party. I just wanted to point that out to our listeners. And of course, more to discuss, much more to discuss on that front and also to hear from the government directly which we will endeavour and keep endeavouring to do so. Anna Burley though, largely we were talking of course about that particular court victory. Thanks for putting it in context and

coming back on. The founder of Reclaim These Streets. You're still getting in touch with those particular moments moving back to Ukraine that are staying with you. Ros says to see an elderly man speaking to camera as he manned a checkpoint, turn away and weep as he spoke of having to leave his wife and children behind. It has broken my heart. The picture that reduced me to tears, says Viv, was that of an 80-year-old man signing up to volunteer, clutching a small brown suitcase in which he had a spare pair of underwear, two clean T-shirts and some sandwiches to tie him over. The pathos of that and his resolute bravery and determination to fight for his country left me in bits.

Keep your messages coming in and I'll cut through as many as possible. But I mentioned and want to talk about now a particular oversight, it seems, from some women with regards to technological improvements, as you may see it when it comes to cars. The statistics routinely show that women are more likely to do the household shopping and that they're more likely to choose environmentally friendly options than men. But there is one exception in this purchasing pattern, cars. There are now over 600,000 plug-in electric vehicles in the UK,

but a new study has found that 20% of women hadn't even considered buying an electric car, with fuel and energy prices hitting new highs. And of course, the war in Ukraine making many properly think perhaps for the first time about where our energy is coming from, or at least engage in a different way. Why aren't more women interested in buying this option build as greener? Erin Baker, Editorial Director at Autotrader, who conducted the research. Good morning. Good morning. Good morning. What have you seen about perhaps the reticence here or why women are not going towards this? Yeah, I think it's a real shame. I think for the first time in kind of the 100-year history of cars and the car industry, now is the time while everyone's thinking, hang on a second, fuel prices are going insane. Maybe we should be thinking now about switching to electric. But women just seem to be behind the curve and behind the pace on this. You pointed out 20% of women haven't looked into it. That's versus just 10% of men that haven't.

And also, you know, the whole awareness piece around it, 62% of women aren't aware of the government grants that are currently available for electric cars. And that's crucial because we know the sticker price on electric cars is really high. You know, they're on average 37% more expensive than petrol and diesel cars to buy. And so I think a lot of women are looking at that sticker price and thinking, well, hang on. I know petrol and diesel are going up, but my goodness, have you seen the price of electric cars? And the problem is that they don't know about the grants that are available, and they don't know about the fact that running costs of electric cars are so much lower,

actually, they won't know that you can offset that price pretty soon after purchase. So I think there's a huge communication piece that's missing between the car industry and women. And I think that's partly because uh you know the industry doesn't understand actually women want to be talked to in a slightly different way about cars we like things like tech interiors materials this idea of the car after the as a third space after office and home in which to work the thing that we like the fact that our carbon footprint could be a lot lower and actually we want to read about cars in women's magazines. We want to listen to things about cars on Women's Hour. We don't want to pick up a copy of Auto Car and talk about rear wheel drive.

You know, I think car manufacturers need to talk to us in a different way. That's interesting that you say that because you don't feel, if the message isn't getting across, you don't feel it's because the way the message is delivered. Do you know that? Do we know that, that women aren't engaging with the communication generally about how cars are communicated about? You're a woman in this world. Yeah, we do know that. We do know that. We know that actually kind of 70 percent of men and women feel that car adverts are hyper masculine.

We know that men and women might want the same things broadly in the first instance when it comes to choosing their next car. We're all interested in reliability and price and things like that. But actually, when you start to then get a bit further into it and people need to make a decision about what is after a really expensive purchase, actually women talk about cars slightly differently. We think about, for example, women love cars that are powerful and fast, but we say things like we love cars that are powerful and fast, but we say things like we like cars that are fun to drive, whereas men are more likely to say, I want a powerful car and to talk about the stats behind that power. So there are subtle differences.

And crucially, as women, when we look at car adverts and we look at car advertising and we go into car retailers and we talk to car brands we don't see many women in there you know women only account for 20 of the workforce in automotive so if we're not seeing ourselves represented in the car industry we're not likely to engage with the process of buying the car or at least we're not likely to find it fun but why should it be less fun than going to buy a new pair of shoes or going to buy a new gym membership could it be that that women are also perhaps a bit skeptical about some of this i mean mean, maybe they've engaged too much. You know, how good for the environment are electric cars? It takes a lot of energy to create them. They don't emit

tailpipe emissions, but there's other parts. There's other things that aren't so great for the environment. They still emit pollution, but because they're heavier, there's more particle pollution from the wear of brakes, tyres and roads. Yeah, all good points. And you're right. And I wish it was that. I wish it was that we'd absolutely done our research and knew what was what. And actually we'd said, hang on a second, we're being sold a bit of a dummy here. There's still a carbon footprint attached to these cars. And you're right, there is. And we cannot get to at this point in time to a perfectly carbon neutral product

because car brands aren't in control of the supply chains they aren't in control of making sure that every single bit of energy that goes into manufacturing that car comes from a renewable source and as consumers you know when we plug our car in to charge at night um on an offbeat tariff with our domestic energy supply we can't all switch to renewable energy immediately. So, yeah, but it's the best we've got. And we're on this path. We're on the road to 2030. You know, net zero is dead, something I definitely want to explore in more detail on the programme. Perhaps people think, well, we don't have to engage with this as much as maybe we were going to. Do you know what? For the first time, if you'd said to me even a month ago, do you think 2030 might be pushed back? Do you think the government mandate that we have to switch to electrics in 2030 onwards, do you think it might be pushed back? Do you think the government mandate that we have to switch to electric from 2030 onwards, do you think it might be pushed back? I would have said no way. You know, they've said it,

car brands are on target to switch their whole range to electric at that point. But now, given everything that's happened, given the inexorable rise of prices for energy, I think either the government is going to have to consider pushing back on that date, or more crucially, I think either the government is going to have to consider pushing back on that date or more crucially, I think they're going to have to consider holding back on scrapping the remaining incentives and grants that exist. And, you know, the plug in grant ends in 2023. The benefit in kind tax break for company car drivers and electric cars ends in 2025. Maybe they're going to have to push back on that. Do you have an electric car? I do. Right. So you are talking from the seat, not literally

right now, of having gone there and done it. I mean, I would expect no less. But I've had that sort of question before. And I think I remember asking Ed Miliband that question when he first was Shadow Energy Secretary. And I don't think he did. I'm not sure he does yet either. But it's not something that lots of people, as you say, women or men necessarily have gone there with full time for themselves, even if they've tried it or engaged with it? No. And, you know, yeah, I put my money where my mouth is, but it's easy for me to. I'm a motoring journalist, so I have access to these cars as well as running and owning them. And the problem is, it's not there for everyone at the moment. We do find looking at the data,

auto trader, that, you know, the pockets of ownership for electric cars are in affluent areas. That means that the pockets of charging networks tend to be more in affluent areas. So we need to see much greater rollout of the charging networks. But we will get there. But in the meantime, the industry and car brands really need to think about marketing properly, seriously to women. And just on that final point, do you think if it's not then about women having done too much research, do you think there's also, and again, it's hard to generalise, but a bit of the reticence or even lack of engagement at all because women are thinking, do you know what, maybe I just don't want to spend more money on

cars, maybe we should be pulling back altogether from them? 100%, and I think there is a bit of that, actually. We see that women are kind of more likely, if they're worried about the environment, for example, or their budgets, to cut back on driving rather than make the switch. But they need to be aware that 2030 is on the horizon. At this point in time, there's no pushback on it. So everyone does need to start getting their heads around it. Erin Baker, thank you so much. Editorial director at Autotrader, who did that particular bit of research. Well, coming to something else that at the time was seen as a complete breakthrough, but it was directly aimed at women,

so they were going to engage with it, or not, but they absolutely did. Female contraception, I am talking about the breakthrough as the pill, has now been used for over six decades. More than a quarter of women say it remains their preferred form of contraception, followed closely by the male condom. However, more recently on social media, some young women are documenting their decision to come off it. I'm joined now by Dr. Jane Dixon, consultant in sexual and reproductive health care and former vice president of the Faculty of Sexual and Reproductive Health Care. And Lottie

Drinan, who's the creator of the health journal, My Tummy Diary. She stopped taking the pill just over a year ago after being on it for 13 years and has been documenting this as part of her experiences on Instagram. Lottie, I'm going to start with you. Good morning. year ago after being on it for 13 years and has been documenting this as part of her experiences on Instagram. Lottie, I'm going to start with you. Good morning. Good morning. Why did you make the decision to come off? I'd been thinking about it for a couple of years. I got to sort of my mid-twenties and a few people, a few of my friends had started doing it for various different reasons.

And the more I heard different experiences, the more I realized I didn't actually know who I was without it, if that makes sense. I'd been on it since about 15, 16 years old, and always thought, this is me, my hormones, my anxiety, all the things I felt. And the more I sort of learned different ways that the pill can affect us, I thought, hmm, I wonder if this is me or whether this is a pill or a combination. A sort of chemical version of you and seeing the world behind that glaze, which is how some have described it. Were you very different? Did you feel different now you're off it?

Yeah, I really did. I mean, I think it was hard to distinguish what was, because I guess I was over analyzing at the beginning um because I had certain expectations both positive and negative um but it's been a year and a half now and I can say that there are quite a lot of differences I think the main one for me is anxiety so I've suffered with anxiety I'd say late teens, early 20s. And I still do experience anxiety. But I was it was back in November 2020. So I think everyone's mental health suffered in some way with the pandemic. But I was waking up with that feeling of like bricks on my chest every single morning for no specific reason, obviously, apart from the world events at the time but as I came off it within I think even a month or two that started lifting and it has remained in general so much better and there was various other changes to so many different areas my skin my gut my sex drive some people's skin to come in there obviously does improve on the pill and that might be their

their main driver for taking it. And again, hard to generalise. But that's interesting that you felt so different mood wise. And have you decided what your alternative contraception is? How do you now manage that? Because that can be the concern when we have this sort of discussion about the pill, what people are going to use instead. Yeah, definitely. That was my biggest concern because at the time we didn't, we weren't ready to start trying for kids, although I was in a relationship where if it happened, it would have been great, but we weren't quite ready.

So I've been using various trackers online and also was using natural methods, which the thermometers, they didn't work too much for me. I kept forgetting to take them so I do think that it would be a very different situation if I was maybe in a position where getting pregnant really would have been the worst thing for me um I do we we do want kids in the future and I definitely would look to go back on contraception a lot of people have said are you anti-pill now absolutely not um but what i am anti is not having enough information and being educated about the

different forms and how they can affect us i think we've just got to the crux of one part of this of course not everybody's on the pill to bring you in good morning dr jane dixon not everyone's on the pill because of contraceptive reasons there may be a whole range of other reasons but there are there is for a lot of people, they don't feel necessarily a better alternative because they might not want the coil, they've not got on well with the injection. Jane, what do you want to say at this point? Well, first of all, thanks for having me on the program. I think you've hit on it exactly, Emma. Lots of women take the contraceptive pill for actually non-contraceptive

reasons so it has enormous benefits for women with endometriosis women who have heavy periods it can be helpful for women who experience period pain like you've said, polycystic ovary syndrome, and some women actually find it better for premenstrual syndrome. The pill is an easy method of contraception to access, and it is still by far the commonest method. But working in contraception and sexual health clinics, we actually tend to promote the other long acting methods, because they are more reliable, and you can forget fit and forget about them. And methods are being developed all the time. I would say we do quite often experience women saying they don't want to use a hormone. And I'm seeing that more commonly these days. But many of the methods are very,

very low in hormones. So particularly the IUD, the intrauterine device doesn't have any hormone at all. And methods like the Mirena coil, which have hormone in them, we're actually seeing those develop. So there are lower dose devices that can be used. And those are really helpful for using for periods too. So I think it's really important that when we have the debate about the pill, we one, just as you said, think about what would be an alternative method of contraception, but to not forget the women who need the non-contraceptive benefits in their lives. Indeed. And of course, the pill can, while help sometimes with that, it can also mask those conditions for some time, which again, can have its own complications when it comes to perhaps

fertility, but also even getting a diagnosis with some of those issues. Taking that all in, factoring that all in, Jane, what do you make, though, of the idea, I suppose, which is at the heart of what Lottie and some other women on this road are saying, which is that they don't want to accept a life with a chemical version of themselves. And it's still very noticeable that there isn't a male pill. In fact, when I looked at some of the studies of this a few years ago, any time a group of men were being tested for this, they would drop out of the study because

they couldn't quite hack how ill they were feeling when it was being tested on them. Yeah, I mean, unfortunately, male contraceptive research is something is still very behind. People have looked at gels and injections. But unfortunately, the hormones that control male reproduction aren't as easy to manipulate as those that control female reproduction. Sperm are made all the time, every minute of the day, whereas as women, we only make one egg a month. So it's actually much easier to control that reproductively. So even though a lot of effort has gone into researching these methods, it's just technically a lot more difficult.

I think that we are seeing more and more women saying that they don't want to put hormones into their body. And we are seeing women that say that their moods have been affected. But that is only a small number. So I think we have to sort of remain balanced and say that there are many, many women that have no problem whatsoever. Yes. In terms of masking masking it can mask things because by perhaps giving you a regular cycle or suppressing pain and menstrual problems situations like endometriosis

and polycystic ovaries might only be unmasked when women come off these. But in fact, there is no detriment to a woman's health by remaining on the pill a long time. And also that change in it becoming much lower dosage, as also the pill has evolved over the years that we have been able to access it. Lottie, we've got a message here from Sarah who's listening, saying, I came off it a few years ago. Having been on it for quite a few years, I just thought I should have a break. I felt actually the same, no bother at all. It may well have caused the previous

contributor, talking about yourself Lottie, to feel anxious, but it certainly caused me no issues. There is a wide range of experience about this Lottie. I'm sure you've heard also from a lot of women as you've been posting about it. What they been saying to you some of the women who've been getting in touch? Yeah so I've actually seen some studies I know Jane you said the percentage of people who aren't affected but I think it was a study that I recent one that I saw said 62% say that they are and I think that does come down speaking to I mean it's the thing that I had the most response from my audience on Instagram and I think for me and a lot of people it comes down to it's not the fact that hormonal contraception or any form of contraception is bad it's just not understanding which one is the best

suited for us so often we're given at the young age when we go in whether it's for contraception or like you say um other issues but we're given the one pill and whether it's for contraception or like you say um other issues reasons but we're given the one pill and whether it's the cheapest one or the most popular or um given that and we just sort of stay on it whereas there's not that i think only recently i've seen it discussed in the past few years about how many different types there are and i believe there's like i think is it something like there's 15 methods but brands wise there's so many's 15 methods, but brands wise, there's so many. I've personally tried a few. So it's just the fact that maybe that one wasn't quite right for me, even if it was my friend or somebody I'd seen online. And I think that's the sort of

most interesting part is we haven't really been told much about how it can affect us in different ways, both in terms of the positives and potential negatives. So we don't often know what our normal is or what our best is. Yes. Well, I've been on an absolute personal safari of this. I've tried all sorts. And that's how some people may feel. But you're right. You may not ask. You may not be told. And you may not dedicate some time really to trying to explore what might work. And I think that's interesting. You've been hearing that. Lottie, thank you so much. Dr. Jane Dixon, thank you to you and many messages coming in along these lines. Well,

let me tell you about something that happened over the weekend. Quite an odd ceremony took place on Saturday at Bristol Cathedral to replace a plaque that marked the day women priests were first ordained by the Church of England in 1994. It had to be replaced or amended, I should say, because the original plaque only listed the names of the men who attended the ceremony, not the 32 women who made history that day. You couldn't write it. Some of the women had even, this is even better, they'd even paid for it. They'd even put in 15 pounds towards this original plaque, which had taken almost 30 years to display their names. And then it didn't.

Well, earlier I spoke to Reverend Angela Berners-Wilson, the first woman to be ordained by the church, and the Bishop of Bristol, Right Reverend Vivian Fall, who led the ceremony on Saturday. And I started by asking Reverend Angela what the ceremony was like for her. Well, it was lovely to finally have the 32 of us that were ordained on that occasion immortalised in stone rather than just the male bishop and male dean. And it was lovely to see there were 11 of us from that cohort came back.

12 of us have since died, of course. And it brought back many memories. It was the most incredible day. I can't believe it's 28 years. And just knowing that the expectations of so many thousands were on us and we were all worried there was going to be some big anti-demonstration. It was such a relief when that never happened. But it was lovely to be back in Bristol Cathedral and it's now got a woman dean as well as a woman bishop in the diocese. How things have changed. It must have been something also to pause to think about that.

But just about the plaque, how did that happen? Because you all contributed. So how did it end up with none of your names your names well we were all invited to contribute 15 pounds which in those days was like about 500 by today's inflation um and i happily did not everybody did but then when i went down to see it i was massively disappointed to see that it didn't have our names on it but i was talking to bishop barry rogerson who was also there on saturday and he said he knew nothing about it till he went to look at it. And he was rather aghast to find it was just him and Wesley Carr on it.

So I think it was the cathedral that made the decision. And when I did see it, I mean, I was rather shocked, but I thought, well, I suppose 32 names is jolly expensive in Cardstone. And now they're there, though. Yes. And how did that make you feel and think? Well, it was wonderful. And I think somebody said at the end of the service, you know, you're now history. I thought, oh, thank you. But we are part of history. Yes. Well, there's different ways of responding to that.

Let me bring you in, Bishop Vivian. Good morning. You led that ceremony on Saturday. How was it for you? It was wonderful. I had seen the plaque, the original plaque, when I came to rehearse for my enthronement as diocesan bishop. And the person in charge of the administration of the cathedral, also a woman, took me over to see the original plaque and said, Bishop Viv, what do you think is this? And we

agreed that I didn't think much of it. So we decided at that moment, there will be a new plaque. This being the Church of England, it took a while to get the permissions through, but also to find the wonderful letter carver, Mason Rob Robbie Mann, who would work on this. And she herself is an ordinand. So it was a wonderful, if you like, circularity. And so we got to the end of this particular bit of this remarkable story of the ordination of women as priests. Well, it is a remarkable story with this kind of side story

of the plaque with no women's names on it. So that's been righted as well. It's taken a little while, but we're there. What did it mean to you to be able to lead that particular ceremony this weekend? The women who were priesthood in 1994 came back for the 25th anniversary. So in a sense, it was the second time that we had met together with Bishop Barry. And what was lovely about Saturday was that it felt as if we could relax. I think it was me who said, but now your history. And I think why I said that was in the intervening 28 years there has been a normalization process

that now women in ministry whether as deacons or as priests or as bishops certainly as far as Bristol is concerned is absolutely normal and people can't understand what the issues were and that's a huge change because for the whole of the last 20 years, our positions have been contested. And there are still corners where there will be contested appointments, for instance, but so few now. And it feels as if we can all relax. Whereas 28 years ago, listening to one or two of the women talking

about what happened when they went back to their parishes they still found that though they were now priests they were still treated with um disfavor not included properly not um not respected by some people in their parishes the majority of them were treated with huge rejoicing. And I go round the diocese and there are plaques to them individually in the parishes. That's lovely. Reverend Angela, what was it like for you being the very first woman to be ordained and going back and seeing how it was amongst those

you were meant to be leading? Well, I always say there's no such thing as first because we're all ordained at the same ceremony and no one's actually ordained until the final amen is said. But I know the media have always gone a bit silly about it and still do. But it was incredibly exciting. I mean, I joined the Movement for the Ordination of Women

back in 78 and I've been on many, many events and all sorts of things to try and progress our cause. So to actually be there at the very first one was incredibly special. It was amazing. And your father was also in the church? My father was also ordained, yes. And was there an element for you growing up that you would have liked to have followed in his footsteps but knew you couldn't?

And how did that sort of relate to what then happened? Well, when I was little, it just wasn't feasible. One didn't even think about it. My vocation to priesthood began to form really when I was at university. So it was just wonderful to be at the vanguard there. Yes, indeed. And with those who weren't perhaps as keen, has it completely gone if we're talking about this being part of history? Pretty much, yes. I mean, when I came to my present post, everyone was so pleased to have me I'm the third incumbent who's been female um I think there's one person the whole benefits that

um has problems actually receiving communion from me but she's always incredibly nice to me she comes to my services it's a woman that was yes that was very different when I went to my first parish a year after my priesting where um you know people would they weren't rude to me but they were just a little bit wary of me. It was a bit like I was a strange, possibly dangerous animal, you know? Right. Sorry, just go back to the woman now who won't receive from you. That's a woman. I didn't mishear that. Yes, quite an elderly lady from way back.

But she's always lovely to me. She's never at all disrespectful. She just doesn't receive from me, which is her choice. Her choice. Right. It's very interesting to still hear how perhaps Bishop Vivian and some respond. And I wonder for you, having been so involved with drafting legislation around the role of women in the church, you also, of course, sit in the House of Lords, being a bishop and those particular responsibilities. What do you think is left to achieve when it comes to women in leadership positions in the church or more generally? We are seeing the possibility, I think, of women reaching the highest positions in the church.

We've now got Sarah Mullally as Bishop of London, which means she's one of the five senior, in fact, the three senior bishops. So we're waiting for a woman to be appointed as Archbishop of Canterbury or York. And I think that's that's quite feasible in my lifetime. But there is still a lot of works to be done, particularly, I think, of women who are trying to balance home and church, particularly for those women of colour who are trying to find their place, particularly those women who are disabled. So all sorts of groups of women who find it more difficult to find their path through into more senior roles in ministry. But I have to say, in terms of lay ministry, it was always the women who got there much earlier. Women have been able to be church wardens for a century.

And my goodness, they are absolutely crucial to the local ministry of the church. If I may just go back, though, to the idea of women being in these roles and being able to still have a family life, what is the Church of England doing about that for those trying to find their path to ministry and not having it set up as if it's for a man who then will move wherever and everyone else can follow them? It's very difficult because there is an assumption still that women in parochial ministry in parishes

will be available 24-7 and that's impossible. It's impossible actually for everybody but we still have that almost monastic idea that the person who is the vicar is also celibate or will bring a wife with them who will help to lead the parish. There are those two models. So there is much work still to be done. We do have job shares. We do have part-time appointments. They're not necessarily in the right place at the right time for the women who need them, which is why, interestingly, on Saturday, several of the women there had gone into hospital chastency because then they had much more control over their time and could divide home and work much more effectively. What do you think will come quicker, those changes or the first female Archbishop of Canterbury or York? Probably the first female Archbishop, I think.

It's so much easier for us to make those, if you like, symbolic, but real changes than to change the whole culture of expectations of parochial ministry. Well, a big job to do. And now there are women, I suppose, in those positions to do it. You were just listening to the Bishop of Bristol, Right Reverend Vivian Fall and Reverend Angela Berners-Wilson. And just time before the end of the programme for me to say

congratulations to Joanna Scannon for her win last night at the BAFTA. She took the Lead Actress Award for her incredible performance in the film After Love. You may have seen that. If not, do check it out. She plays a woman called Mary Hussain who discovers something unexpected about her husband after his death. She was the only British winner in the Big Four acting awards last night. And I did have the pleasure of speaking to Joanna a few weeks ago and asking her about being nominated. It was a really lovely conversation. And she's very funny,

of course, indeed. If you're familiar with her work, you can catch back up with that conversation on BBC Sounds. And she did make an emotional acceptance speech and even threw in a little Welsh when making that speech last night. Something else that she talked to me about because of where she's been filming and what she's been grappling with. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. This podcast is sponsored by Wise, the app for doing things in other currencies. If you're sending or spending money abroad, you should use Wise. You'll have up to 40 currencies

in the palm of your hand. Wise gives you the real exchange rate, which means you'll spend less on fees and more of your money gets where you need it to be. Download the Wise app today or visit wise.com. T's and C's apply. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain.

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