Woman's Hour - Plus ones, Swifties, Scotland rape rule, Long-lost siblings

Episode Date: June 7, 2024

Scotland's most senior law officer has asked nine of the country's judges to overturn an 87-year-old rule on evidence in cases involving rape and other sexual offences. Since she became Lord Advocate in 2021, Dorothy Bain KC has often spoken of her desire to improve the criminal justice system for victims, particularly women and girls. She is now seeking radical changes which would allow more rape cases to reach court. Anita Rani talks to David Cowan, BBC Scotland's home affairs correspondent.A group of state secondary schools in Southwark, south London, has decided to act as a collective and shift their pupils away from smartphones. Children's use of smartphones, particularly in schools, continues to be a hot topic issue, and many schools have decided to create new policies to try and tackle what they call the damaging effects of smartphone use. One of those schools is Ark Walworth Academy in Southwark, and their headteacher, Jessica West, joins Anita to talk about the plans.This evening, Taylor Swift will take to the stage at Murrayfield in Edinburgh for the first part of her UK tour. It is the first of 17 UK dates, which will finish in a record-breaking eight-night run at London's Wembley Stadium. By then, she will have played to almost 1.2 million UK fans. Her international Eras tour is expected to make more than $2 billion (£1.5 billion) by the time she performs her final show in Canada this December. Jolene Campbell, reporter at The Daily Record, talks to Anita about the Swifties who have descended on the city.As a newborn baby in 1968, Helen Ward had been wrapped up warmly in a tartan bag and abandoned in a phone box in Ireland. She would spend years searching for her biological mother, but what she found instead were two full siblings who had also been abandoned as babies. Helen talks to Anita about the story she's spent a lifetime unravelling.As we enter wedding season, some listeners will be spending every weekend for the rest of summer at either a hen do or a wedding. But what is the etiquette when it comes to plus ones? Anita talks to Liz Wyse, Etiquette Adviser for Debrett's and journalist Rebecca Reid.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Rebecca Myatt Studio manager: Tim Heffer

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning. Welcome to Friday's programme. Thousands of Swifties across generations and from across the world are in Edinburgh, fizzing with excitement as Taylor Swift begins her UK tour. More on that soon. And wedding season is upon us. And we're going to be discussing the delicate etiquette around plus ones. Do you ask to bring your partner? Should you be offended if you're not allowed to bring them? What about child-free weddings? No kids allowed. Or some kids allowed, just not yours. Maybe you

or someone in your family is getting married. How are you dealing with the inevitable guest list situation? I'll share a personal story with you, if I may. When I was looking for wedding venues, I said to my dad, Dad, I found the perfect place. It's beautiful. It can hold 250 people for a sit down dinner. Remember, I am Indian. And my dad said, that's not going to do. Where will we put the gatecrashers? Now, traditionally, and I quote, traditionally Asians have done things very differently.

Guest lists at weddings, along with pocket money, just don't exist in the culture. Things are changing, but traditionally, no. But what about in your worlds? I want to hear about the politics of who did and did not attend your wedding party and how did it play out? Any regrets?

Would you do things differently now? Oh, it's going to be a good one. Get in touch. The text number 84844. You can also email me via our website or you can WhatsApp me on 03700 100 444. Also, what's the situation with smartphones and your children? Do they have one?

If they do, what happens if you try and take it away? How, as a parent, do you feel about smartphones? Is it the third unwanted partner in your relationship? How would you feel if your child's school took the decision to ban smartphones? Well, a group of schools in London are doing just that. We'll be hearing from them. Scotland's most senior law officer is wanting to change an 87-year-old rule on evidence

that could have big implications on rape cases getting to trial. We'll be finding out more. And you may have heard the news reports this week about the baby abandoned in London, who it turns out has full siblings who were also abandoned. It's a very moving story, incredibly rare, and there are lots of unknowns. But this story does have some echoes of an abandonment that took place in Ireland over 50 years ago. I'll be finding out about that from one of the abandoned babies herself. That text number once again. Get in touch with me about anything you hear on the programme, but particularly

your wedding stories this morning, or wedding guest list, I should say. 84844 is the number. But first, Scotland's most senior law officer has asked nine of the country's judges to overturn an 87-year-old rule on evidence in cases involving rape and other sexual offences. Since she became Lord Advocate in 2021, Dorothy Bain Casey has often spoken of her desire to improve the criminal justice systems for victims, particularly women and girls. She's now seeking radical changes which would allow more rape cases to reach court. David Cowan is BBC Scotland's Home Affairs Correspondent and joins us now to tell us more. Morning, David. Morning, Anita. So this involves aspects of Scots law which don't apply in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. So let's start with that. What are the big differences in Scotland? Well, Scots law was one of the aspects of Scottish life which survived the Act of Union way back in 1707.

And over the centuries, you know, it's developed rules and procedures which are very different to the rest of the UK. Arguably, the most important of those is corroboration, which is, you know, at the heart of what we're talking about today. It's unique to Scotland, a cornerstone of the law up here since the late 18th century. It means that there have to be two separate sources of evidence to prove the essential facts of the case, that a crime was committed and the person accused of the crime was responsible. Now, historically,

that's meant that you can't be convicted on the evidence of a single witness, no matter how honest or plausible they might seem. There are arguments for and against this. It's regarded as a protection against wrongful convictions. But campaigners at organisations like Rape Crisis Scotland say it's a barrier against justice because it stops so many cases from getting anywhere near a jury. In Scotland, just as it is in the rest of the UK, there's a huge gap between the number of reported rapes

and the number that get to court. And Rape Crisis Scotland says, actually, it's only 6% of reported rapes and the number that get to court. And Rape Crisis Scotland says, actually, it's only 6% of reported rapes and attempted rapes that result in prosecutions. And corroboration is one of the reasons for that. So before we talk a bit more about what Dorothy Bain is pushing for change for, let's understand a bit more, because you have a different system for juries and verdicts. Can you talk us through that as well?

Yeah, so it's all connected, all of this stuff. We have juries of 15 instead of 12. For a guilty verdict, we only need a simple majority of eight. So that means that someone could be convicted of something like murder, they can be jailed for life on the say-so of a single juror. But it's all about checks and balances. And one of the arguments about corroboration is that if you're going to have a simple majority in a jury of 15, you need safeguards to prevent miscarriages of justice. We also have the not proven verdict. Juries can deliver verdicts of guilty, not guilty and not proven. Not guilty and not proven are verdicts of acquittal. The accused is innocent in the eyes of the law. But, you know, it's hugely

controversial. A written legal definition of not proven doesn't exist. There are various interpretations of what it means. It can be seen as offering additional protection to the accused. It gives the jury an option if they're not sure the case has been proved. But, you know, critics say it's confusing for juries. It's confusing for the public. It can stigmatise an accused person by appearing not to fully clear them. And it fails to provide closure for victims. So not proven is used more in trials involving rape than in other cases.

And of course, the conviction rate here for rape and attempted rape is lower than it is for other crimes. A few years ago in Scotland, it was 48% compared to 84%. And the conviction rate is even lower when you get a case with a single complainer, which is what an alleged victim is called in Scotland. They're, of course, the hardest cases to get into court and the hardest to prove when they get a case with a single complainer, which is what an alleged victim is called in Scotland. They're, of course, the hardest cases to get into court and the hardest to prove when they get there. So now Dorothy Bain Casey has been pushing for change

since she became Lord Advocate three years ago, hasn't she? Yes. The Lord Advocate has a dual role, head of the prosecution service in Scotland, also the chief legal advisor to the Scottish government. Dorothy Bain's a highly experienced lawyer. She prosecuted the serial killer Peter Tobin here in Edinburgh back in 2007. And it's always been very clear that she cares very deeply about securing justice for victims and reducing violence against women and girls is one of her absolute priorities.

She spoke about it in the Scottish Parliament earlier this year. She said, we need to resolve these issues around sexual crime. They have a profound effect on victims. They ruin lives. We've got to do something about it. We've got to have a better system. Now, she doesn't relish being in the public eye. She's very much not one of those swashbuckling lawyers

who love the limelight. But, you know, quietly, she is trying to bring about changes to the law which would have far-reaching consequences. And that's what she's done. There's a procedure where she can go to court and ask the court to look at an issue that's been raised in a trial. She won a big change on the rules of evidence on distress in rape cases last year. And this year, she's gone back to court again. So where does this corroboration rule come from in the first place?

Well, corroboration has been around for years and years but the ruling from 1937 which is the heart of this comes to my case which actually back in 1936 a woman had been indecently assaulted in Glasgow. She identified a man called Henry Morton as her attacker but she was the only one to do that. Henry Morton was found guilty but the appeal court overturned his conviction. Now the Morton case led to a rule being established as case law which limits what can be done with a statement made shortly after an alleged crime by the complainer. And that's what Dorothy Brain was trying to get changed this week.

And so it's been in place for 90 years. What has she asked judges to do? Well, the case back in 1937 was heard by seven judges. So the case this week had to be heard by nine and the first time that's happened in decades. The Lord Advocate argued that the law in 1937 took a wrong turn. She said a category of corroborative evidence had been excised from Scots law and she wants a statement taken from a complainer shortly after the offence to be allowed to be used as a separate source of evidence that the crime had been committed and the accused was responsible.

So the statement from the victim could be used to corroborate, to back up the evidence that the victim gives in court. And what are the arguments against it? Well, senior defence lawyers say that Dorothy Bain wants to go far too far, particularly on that point about identification of the accused. The opposing argument was put forward by Sheila McCall, who's one of Scotland's most respected KCs. She said that what's in place at the moment minimises the risk of wrongful convictions. The court was being asked to pass significant innovations into the law of Scotland and shouldn't do so. And, you know, there are people who say that, you know, such a big change should be decided by politicians, not by judges. But the wheels have been set in motion. The nine senators of the College of Justice, that's what they're called,

have gone away to think about it and will get their decision in due course. And if the judges agree with Dorothy Bain, what difference will it make? Well, I spoke to Andrew Tickell, a law lecturer at Glasgow Caledonian University about this. He said it would effectively be the end of corroboration, as we've noticed in Scotland for almost a century. He said it would mean that we could rely on the evidence of a single witness, the alleged victim, to corroborate far more than they can do at the moment. The practical consequence would be that more cases will get to court, but no one's prepared to guess, you know, what that will actually mean for the conviction rate. Juries will still have to think about the credibility and reliability of the witnesses. The case will still have to be proved beyond reasonable doubt. And it's important to point out as well that this won't just apply to sexual offences.

It would apply as well, for example, to the robbery of a lone shopkeeper. So, you know, if she wins, it would be a major change to the system. Any idea which way the court will go? Well, there's a major piece of legislation going through the Scottish Parliament at the moment proposing radical reforms of the system, including abolishing not proven, and also proposing a pilot of judge-only rape trials, trials which would take place without a jury. Scotland's second most senior judge, Lady Dorian, was involved in putting forward that proposal. And 14 years ago as well, there was a review of the Scottish system which recommended that corroboration should be abolished. The Scottish government decided not to do that at that stage. That review was led by Lord Carloway,

who's now the most senior judge in Scotland. And Lord Carloway and Lady Dorian are two of those nine judges who are considering whether this rule from 1937 has had its day. So, you know, I suspect they will agree to some of what the Lord Advocate is asking for. The question is how far they'll go. And finally, David, when will we know what they've decided?

At a later date, I'm afraid. I think last year it took them three or four months to come back with the decision when Dorothy Bain did this so I suspect we'll probably have to wait as long again before we find out what's going to happen. Thank you for that. Fascinating stuff. David Cowan BBC Scotland's Home Affairs correspondent

Thank you David. 84844 is the number to text. Lots of you getting in touch already about your wedding guest list. My sister is getting married in a month. No children allowed as they look cute for a few moments, but then take their parents away from enjoying the day. So kids banned from that one.

A message here says plus ones for single people would be very nice. You always get invited alone, but being able to bring a friend, not just a romantic partner would be great, especially if you only know the bride and groom, not any other guests. And lots of you getting in touch already about mobile phones and your teenagers sarah from wonstead says my daughter's school has a no phone policy but my daughter is a type 1 diabetic and uses her phone to monitor her blood sugars if she isn't allowed a phone by law how would she control her health

and james says we bought our 10 year old daughter a kid's smart watch she can text us call us but we can control the numbers she's able to contact and be contacted from it's ideal as she's protected but has a way to contact us keep your thoughts coming in 84844 the reason i'm asking you about your children and teenagers about smartphones is because a group of state secondary schools in southwark in south lond, have decided to act as a collective and shift their pupils away from smartphones. Children use smartphones, particularly in schools. Their use of it continues to be a hot topic issue. Many schools have decided to create new policies to try and tackle what they're calling damaging effects of smartphone use. One of those schools is ARC Walworth

Academy in Southwark and the headteacher Jessica West joins me now. Morning Jessica, welcome to Woman's Hour. So what's your new policy? Well I think probably it's better to think about this as a collective principle rather than a policy because you're right to identify the collective action from the group of schools in Southwark but we are actually all discrete individual schools and therefore there will be completely individual policies that underline this principle but I think what we know is that this is not a case of schools saying oh gosh smartphones are coming out in the middle of maths and interrupting lessons that's not really what what this is about Schools have long been a cornerstone of multiple

interventions and services for young people. We care about young people's well-being and their safety, not just about their academic attainment. And it is clear to us that young people are really, really struggling with smartphone usage, particularly with reference to social media. We have seen significant increases in mental health concerns. We see young people able to access inappropriate content. There is risk of grooming. We know that a lot of the platforms that young people choose to use are specifically designed and engineered to become more addictive and to mimic those kind of patterns of repeated engagement. We know that there's an impact on attention spans for young people. And in addition to that, smartphones are incredibly expensive and they're very high value. And so there is also a risk of young people being involved in criminal activity or being targeted

for those devices themselves. So it's not that schools are finding this a huge problem in terms of learning specifically, though there's definitely a, you know, a knock on. But I think what we're saying is holistically, we're really concerned about young people. So what we want to do is make it a collaborative process with our families, with our staff, with our young people to say there's a better choice that you can make. And it's choosing not to engage with that until you're a bit older. So is it a ban? No, it's not a ban. And each school will do something different. And, you know, I think it's very easy to say, oh, Southwark schools ban smartphones,

and you do get that conjured image of, well, there's a problem with phones in lessons. Again, I think that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about the welfare and well-being of young people holistically, and this is a problem for them, things like body image, for example. Sure, yeah, absolutely, and we talk about it on this programme all the time, and so I'm sure lots of adults listening will probably relate to the the impacts that that phones are having on their own lives as well it's not just children that they affect um how is this uh going to play out in your school specifically though what are you doing well all of the schools

are committed to two things um so the first one is creating a programme for staff, students and families that highlights the evidence and the negative impact of smartphone usage and social media. So all of us have committed to doing that. That programme will look slightly different in each school. Similarly, all phones have committed, sorry, all schools have committed to updating their policies around mobile phones to add something that actively discourages the use of smartphones, as opposed to what we would consider traditional phones or brick phones, in years seven, eight and nine. So until young people are about 14.

What that will look like in each different school, again, is up to them. But what are you doing? Suggestions that have been included. So I will always work with my young people, my families and my staff to pin down our policy in advance of rolling it out. So we will be rolling out our policy in September. But the working theory behind our policy that we're testing at the moment is the idea that we're going to stick with what we've got, which is we don't have phones in school. So if we see it,

we hear it, it interrupts something, we confiscate it. But what we're considering now is if your phone is a smartphone, instead of you getting it back at the end of the day, we're going to ask your family to come in and collect it. And that encourages that dialogue about whether this is a repeated issue, whether this is interrupting learning, whether or not that should be coming back to you, whether you really need it or whether or not a brick phone would be more appropriate. And what are the parents saying to you when you've talked to them about it? What's the reaction been? I read out a couple of our listeners' comments

and one of them was quite concerned. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that I don't believe that that's going to be a problem for the listener who reported a young person with a healthcare concern because schools are very, very familiar with treating young people as individuals there will always be an exception that where no one is saying that technology is blanket bad certainly not there will always be appropriate usage and young people who have bespoke circumstances such as education healthcare plans that would demand the use of

certain technology just the same way that there are young people who for example use laptops in lessons and so I don't think that that that would apply to absolutely everyone and certainly not to the detriment of a young person with a health care condition. Broadly families are asking for some support broadly families do seem to be quite concerned about peer pressure and what is the right age to get your child a smartphone. Increasingly, I think we are receiving information that suggests that the primary, secondary jump is often the time where parents feel quite pressured that this is the most appropriate time. And so being able to say to year six families, look, you know, we're saying no, actually. And collectively, all Southwark schools really are saying no.

We won't want them here. We will prefer brick phones. So probably don't invest at this point. And maybe doing a lot of parents a favour because they don't have to say we're saying no, which can result in maybe tantrums and arguments and all sorts. Because it's been discussed that it's an addiction, isn't it, for a lot of young people? Absolutely. Absolutely, it really is. We've had a couple of messages. I'm just going to read them out to you.

I am an educational psychologist and we've seen a significant increase in children's anxieties since the introduction of smartphones. Language levels and concentration levels also seem affected. I'm all for restricting use in schools. What are your teachers telling you? I think that all educators are broadly very concerned about young people's welfare. As I said to you, I don't believe that this is a kind of a lesson by lesson issue. The kind of impact that we see in schools a lot around from phones are things like social media usage group chats cyber bullying that is the sort of thing that interrupts the smooth running of the

day and the prioritizing of learning for young people so most people are broadly behind it and I think you know what you're highlighting there is is what we're trying to find which is a collaborative approach what we want is to be working in collaboration with our parents with our staff with our young people um you know to pilot things make sure that things are working it's quite possible that you know that this will end up being something that rolls out even further but at the moment we're saying sort of year seven eight and nine um that's where we want to start and i think the the fact that the schools have chosen to work together indicates that we're talking about a big holistic concern,

but it will be for schools to have their individual policies. We've got another one that's come in here that says, we give our children a full fat smartphone for their 11th birthday. I think giving them one relatively early keeps them safe, as we the parents can keep an eye on what they're doing and control how long they're on them. If we waited until they were 16 to give them a smartphone for the first time, we would lose our children forever on that day.

They would be on it 24-7 without our control and without having learned how to deal with all the dangers and intricacies of the smartphone world. And I think a stepped approach is probably really sensible. I don't believe that any school is trying to um uh dictate for families what happens i think what we are are trying to promote is that working together to give people options because a lot of families are talking to us about the peer pressure of everyone else in my class has got one and actually that avenue that you're talking about being able to say

well school are not going to let you have it so you know that there's a support for families around making what are quite difficult choices i think at this time so we talked about the teachers we've talked about the parents but what about the kids in your school what's their take on this particularly the sixth form years so it wouldn't this this ban or policy extension wouldn't apply to sick formers and it won't apply to years 10 or 11 either. Because I think like your listener who's called in or texted in, that stepped approach is quite important. But the curriculum does also mirror that. So, you know, we would have a chance then in year 7, 8 and 9 to deliver this programme for young people,

for adults and stakeholders in our schools, to make sure that there is a responsible adoption of that. We have a device policy, which means that all of our young people have access to a laptop, and we have safeguarding software that's on that laptop, which means that we would much prefer that young people can use their laptops, their school devices for their homework to make sure that digital literacy is not something that is lost. And we do think that that's probably the right and proper route for young people to be experimenting with technology. And that is, again, a quite a scaffolded way of doing that. But we fully recognise I've got a smartphone, you've got a smartphone, there will

come a time where those young people do want to step into that world. What we're hoping to do is give them an opportunity to do that in a way that hasn't cost them something in terms of their mental health and their well-being. Well, you know, as you said, you're at the sharp end of it because you see them day in, day out, and you know the impacts and the effects it's having on them. And we're in uncharted territory, aren't we? So it's fascinating stuff. Jessica West, thank you so much for speaking to me this morning. Glenda's been in touch saying schools generally have a handle on smartphones glenda suggests a downstairs only um would be a better rule young people are very vulnerable when alone in their bedrooms and uh jemma a teacher in paisley says i support phones for children's

safety but they need to be kept under control in school environment many teachers especially women have been filmed in class and made into abusive videos which have been posted on social media. There's also a problem of bullying incidents in schools being filmed with phones and posted online. The adults in the school environment need to be allowed to be in charge to keep everyone safe. 84844. Now, today is the day. Taylor Swift will take to the stage at Murrayfield in Edinburgh for the first part of her UK tour. It's the first of 17 UK dates, which will finish in a record-breaking eight-night run at London's Wembley Stadium.

By then, she will have played to almost 1.2 million UK fans. Her international Eros tour is expected to make more than $2 billion, £1.5 billion by the time she performs her final show in Canada this December. Fans have been gathering at Edinburgh Stadium from the early hours on Wednesday to buy their tour merch ahead of their gigs. Let's hear from a few of them as they're gearing up for the show. We're like a kind of age where we've kind of been hearing her music all our lives. This is our fourth time. She's been a Taylor Swift fan since she was about 12. So I was brainwashed.

Just get some merchandise for my daughter who's nine years old and just a massive fan. You're like I'm going to faint but you know that's the best experience there's going to be. Almost 73,000 fans will fill the Scottish rugby home for each of three nights. Outside the stadium is Jolene Campbell, reporter at the Daily Record. Sadly, you haven't

got a ticket, Jolene, but you are right in the thick of it. Where are you? What's the atmosphere like? Good morning. Yes, I'm here outside Murrayfield Stadium. It's a sea of fans here, undeterred by the weather. They are all decked out in colourful ponchos, cowboy boots and hats, smart-sleeved dresses and the signature friendship bracelets that Swifties have been making especially for the concerts.

Yeah, the buzz here is palpable this morning. Fans have been queuing for days for merchandise and they're back again this morning. I've spoken to some here who've been here since before 9am to make sure that they get a good start and get to the front of the stage for the opening concert tonight. From all around the world. Your phone line isn't great, Jolene, but let's persist for a little bit longer, see if it sorts itself out.

If it doesn't, we'll maybe try and come back to you. Have you spoken to fans from all over the world, wherever they travelled from? Yeah, so I spoke to fans from all over the globe. Lots of people have flown in from the US where they tried desperately but couldn't get tickets there. And they said it was actually cheaper to fly over here and they were delighted to get tickets. And for some, they made an excuse of having their first trip to Scotland. Fans from the US, from the Philippines, from all over.

And what age range are we talking about it's a broad spectrum um from you know little um teenagers all the way up to 65 year olds I've spoken to all ages and how busy do you think it's going to be in Edinburgh this evening do you think anyone who's not going to the gig will want to be in the city yeah i think the atmosphere will be electric um already getting a taste of that here this morning and there's going to be a real excitement um a buzzing atmosphere in the city um you know she's set to make um history with with these concerts and tell us about um the preparations in edinburgh just how big is this for the city and who have you spoken to who's been part of the

preparations for the concert? So I've spoken to some of the stewards here at Murrayfield and one told me that she's never seen anything like it, that it was next level, that the fans are, the dedication, you know, queuing for hours just to get merchandise, VIP tickets. It's obviously a huge boost for the local economy, you know hotels. Taylor Swift was said to land last night in one of the capital's luxury hotels where she's going to be staying for the run of the the first UK concerts, her three-night run here and the Lord Provost has welcomed the boost to the local economy. It's obviously a huge, huge event in Scottish pop history and a huge event for the city. And Taylor Swift herself has said every time she comes to Scotland, it feels like coming home. So this is really special for fans because she's not been back to Scotland since her gig at the Hydro in 2015.

And obviously, with it being the first UK date, Fresh from Leon, the fans are really excited to be part of that. And to think in 2015, it was probably so easy to get a ticket. And now, I mean, it's three nights sold out completely and are people still hunting for tickets? Yeah, people are.

I spoke to one lady here this morning hoping that someone will be here in the grounds trying to sell tickets but I don't think that's likely but there are some people trying to sell tickets on social media but but it is a sold out run and tickets are like hotcakes I mean imagine if you're the parent who managed to bag some tickets for the concert I mean you are going to go down in history aren't, as the parent who managed to do it. Are you a Swifty, Jolene? Well, to be honest, I wasn't before,

but I think I might be a convert. I got given eight friendship bracelets yesterday. I mean, the camaraderie and the spirit of generosity from fan to fan is incredible. You know, I spoke to people who'd travelled from the US who'd all decked out in their gear on the planes and they'd shared their excitement for the concert and they'd given each other bracelets. So my eight-year-old daughter was delighted

when I gave her some. She's still hoping for tickets, but we'll have to see how that goes. Oh, you're one of the parents who hasn't managed to get hold of them. So your eight-year-old's a fan? She is, yes. She's a massive fan.

And you're a recent convert so you see the sort of the swifty mania it's catching um i need to ask you about your name though jolene sounds like your mum might have been a fan of somebody oh yeah she's an unashamed dolly parton fan so i think taylor herself might approve of that absolutely there's a definitely a link here did you know that dolly has been announced that there's going to be a dolly parton musical on broadway oh i didn't know that right well there you go i've just given you some information um you might not have got swifty tickets but get get you get yourself some tickets for that one oh definitely definitely right good luck uh on the hunt for tickets are you surrounded by fans

is there any way of getting in and out are you trapped there now until the fans get into the venue yes I'm trapped here I was trying to find

a girl from Oxford who was camping she came up to make sure she was first in the queue I think she's

the only person that's been out I'm not able to find her but I'm going to go and have a look and have a look. I'm going to have a chat. How long has she been there from Oxford?

She brought a tent and a sleeping bag. She brought a tent, yeah. A couple of days ago, she's been camping. I haven't managed to locate her yet, but I'm going to go and see if I can find her and have a chat. Yeah, make sure she's all right. Give her a glass of water. Hopefully, she's at the front of the queue.

Jolene, thank you so much for speaking to me. Jolene Campbell, who's a reporter at The Daily Record in the thick of it up in Edinburgh. Now, this week, the BBC reported that a newborn baby girl found in a London park earlier this year is the third child abandoned by the same parents. Baby Elsa, not her real name, was found by a dog walker wrapped in a towel and placed in a shopping bag. DNA tests revealed that she has two other full siblings found in 2017 and 2019 in similar circumstances.

There are many unknowns, but what we do know is that the two older babies were adopted and baby Elsa remains in foster care. All the children are healthy and well, despite appeals by the police, their parents have not yet been identified. It is an extraordinary and very rare situation. Looking back over the decades, there appears to be only one other

recorded case of three children from the same parents who were all abandoned as newborns in a public space and found to be full siblings. Let me take you back 60 years to Northern Ireland. In 1962, a baby boy, David, was found in a tartan bag placed in the front seat of a stranger's car in Belfast. Six years later, a baby girl, Helen, was also found in a tartan bag, but this time south of the border in Ireland, this time in a phone box. Both Helen and David were separately adopted by families,

grew up without knowledge of each other, miles apart. As adults, both went looking for their birth mother, but what they found was each other. And then came another twist. They discovered a third full sibling, John, also left in a phone box a few years before Helen. And they think the story isn't actually over. There might be a fourth full sibling out there. Helen joins us now from Ireland to tell us about her extraordinary life story.

Welcome to Woman's Hour, Helen. Thank you very much, Anita. Thank you so much for joining us. Now, Taylor, you grew up in Ireland knowing absolutely nothing about your birth parents, only that you were adopted from a children's home in 1968. And it wasn't until your 30s that you decided to actively look for your birth mother. What happened then? Why in your 30s? the back of my mind and I'd ask many questions up to that and then I think when my own children came along I felt a great need to know more and you know when you look at your own your first newborn and you think to yourself my god you know brings you back to you know where your birth mother could have come from and what your circumstances were about. So at around 30, I decided this was kind of 30, 35. This was kind of the time to really take the plunge, go forward and have a look.

What did you find? So to my surprise, I found that I was actually a foundling. Unfortunately, on my birth cert, it said, father unknown, mother unknown. And where I was found, it just said baby exposed on Ladies' Well Terrace, Dundalk, County Louth. So the trail went cold. The trail went cold. Yeah, it was a very disappointing day for me because I suppose I was thinking so much of my birth mother I thought great I would get some information and when the trail went cold I shut off completely and how did you feel finding out that that you were a foundling

um I took it on board in one respect, but didn't ponder on it. My aim was to find my birth mother. That was my big aim. And I think it was only later on, you know, having spoken to my friends and stuff like that, that they found it so fascinating that I was a foundling. I suppose my agenda was my birth mother all the time to make sure she was okay. Of course. So at that point, you didn't get the information you wanted.

The trail went cold. But then another decade later, you decided to go to the media. You went on the Joe Duffy show in Ireland. So what made you want to do that? And this is 10 years later. Again, the support of my friends and them knowing how much this means to me to find my birth mother, to find my identity. I wanted to let her know that I was okay.

Was she okay? I suppose there just had been something within me that I always felt I wanted to know that she was okay too. And as a mother, having my own children children that was very important to know um that going forward also my identity as well um that was very important to me I when I was on the Joe Duffy show I discovered um that the lorry driver that found me rang in to um let me know that he was the gentleman that found me and that was an incredible moment. The guard, Sergeant Michael Keneally, the late Sergeant Michael Keneally, he also phoned in to tell about his story on that night as well and these were, like this is a huge impact that has had on me but also on them, the people that find you over the years.

It has stayed with them for years, wondering where that little girl had gone. Had she gone to a good home? How is she today? You know, very important. Absolutely. Of course, if you, if that for them, the people that found you would be wondering what happened to you and for you to meet people who were instrumental in finding you so it was the lorry driver that found you and then the police officer michael keneally and you got a chance to speak to him live on radio actually we have a clip of it shall we let's have a listen hello how are you thank you so much for taking care of me okay i think i've been well taken care of all my life by everybody.

I hope you have, Helen. Thank you. I have indeed. I think, you know, it's actually very emotional. I never thought it would be as emotional. Okay, it's 44 years ago. Yes, and has anybody ever come forward? Oh, no. I never had anything about where you came from or nobody ever came forward.

Oh, it's emotional. How does it feel for you listening to that? You know, it's absolutely the same feeling I had that particular day back then. I feel very emotional. I was very fortunate to meet Michael Keneally and his family and they showed me around Dundalk, they showed me exactly the place where I was found and yeah it's a very emotional moment because he was one of the first people after to find me and to come in contact with me after I had been left. So that was you talking to Michael Keneally, the police officer that found you on the Joe Duffy show in 2012. And that was on your 44th birthday. And then, because this story has many twists and

turns, it was when you were 50. And again, one of your friends was instrumental in this, that you decided to do a DNA test test did you think that you would find any information from that or a relative at the time look it was my last hope really um and again through great encouragement and support of my friends they said listen try it and i suppose there's always a fear of what you will find when you're on a journey like this but to my amazement I have it has opened a world of pure happiness and joy to what I did find in 2019. Who did you find in 2019? In 2019 I discovered I had a full brother who is David McBride. And thanks to the Long Lost Family show, Born Without Trace,

they were doing a piece for David and they connected the piece and got in contact with me and we both did the show together. What was it like meeting your full sibling? You both have the same parents for the very first time. Absolutely incredible. It was so surreal. I think it was so emotional that there was so many emotions trying to rise to the surface all at once. But, you know, once we sat and we chatted, we chatted for hours together. And it was almost, it's a really funny feeling because it was almost as if we knew each other maybe had you know just hadn't seen each other for ages

but we chatted and chatted like this was pure normal yet what is so unique about this is that neither of us ever even knew we existed and I'm sure both of you then wanted to discover about your parents who they were oh absolutely what did you find out so a couple of months later we discovered that um our parents were having a relationship um our father had been married or was married he had 14 siblings or sorry 14 children um and that our mother was an unmarried mother and they had a relationship that spanned over 30 years maybe 40 years we're still unsure so they'd been having an affair and your father was was married and he was he protestant and your mother catholic that right? So that's an added complication. Well, absolutely, especially back then, you know, and then for her being an unmarried mother, discovering she became pregnant, you know, all of these were taboos.

She was Catholic. He was Protestant. Yeah, it was a very, very difficult time. How did you process that information? It takes a long time to process. You know, it takes many, many months to take it all in. And I suppose we were very fortunate that with long-lost families, we had very good support. Information was given to us in a very sensitive manner. And there was help and support along the way to help us through this and I think myself and David had you know we were both on the same parallel journeys for years and together I

think we you know did a really good job at supporting each other and coming to terms with it all. And then you found a third sibling tell me about john john john um i had heard back in 2013 when i had completed and the joe duffy show in 2012 2013 i had discovered that there was um another sibling or sorry not another sibling that there was another um situation like mine baby found in a phone box in drada and i tried to make an inquiry, but the trail went cold. So after we did our show with the Long Lost Family in 2021, John's daughter saw the show that we did and connected the pieces. And she got in touch with her dad and said i think

and that these um that helen and david could possibly be your um brother and sister and didn't she say that they walk like you to her dad yeah um donna noticed all those little things she said and that david walked like her father had hands like her father and then the similarities between my case and my find you know within the phone box for father's find he was found in a phone box as well um was the same and you were all in tartan bags as well we were all in tartan bags we had bottles we were well dressed There was a lot of common thread through it all. It's an incredible story. As a mother and as a woman, when you think about your own birth mother

and the three of you and the story and knowing what you know about her, what do you think? How do you feel about her? Well, I think it must have been a very lonely time for her to make the decisions that she had to make um she must have been very fearful you know but um I would never judge what she has done because we don't know and understand really you know how she felt and um all I I don't really feel is that a deep sadness that I never got an opportunity to actually speak with her and find out and have kind of, you know, just a normal conversation around it to know what was her real situation, why she felt she had to give us up. And we, yes, we can all put, you know, into place.

Well, it was the times it was you know um she had no other choice or whatever I would have loved to have a conversation but I had to take the positive out of it and that is that today you know I have fantastic siblings now yeah and extended siblings as well and that that, you know, that is life and you just have to go forward with that. Some things you will never know and that's unfortunate. And according to the BBC report,

there are plans for these babies to have some form of contact as they grow up, the babies that have been found recently in London. In your story, we know that it was after 50 years that you found your siblings. How differently do you think things would have been for you if you'd known about David and John from a young age? Well, it would have been lovely to know about them and, you know, have that interaction growing up. And I suppose, you know, it would be another journey. It would be another,

it would be a different, I suppose i a different understanding of the journey we would have known a lot like we had a lot to a lot of barriers to break down to find out what we did and it took us 50 years you know thanks to the collaboration of all the services today that these children now know that they are full siblings and And hopefully that over time, you know, things will be put in place for them to have spent time together and connect together at an earlier age. That would be, you know, I suppose up to the services to do that in the best way that they can.

It is really, really important. We've missed out on a lot of that. But again, I take the positive out of our story we're going forward we now have the opportunity to spend time to learn about each other and they might you know have that a lot earlier which will be lovely. It's a remarkable tale thank you so much for sharing your story with us Helen Wood thank you. Thank you. Lots of you getting in touch about various things we've been discussing on the programme,

particularly what we're about to talk about next. Weddings and plus ones. Viv says, at my village wedding in 1975, we'd carefully catered for the exact number of guests. As I left the church, my mam hissed that the vicar's wife was coming and could I add an extra place setting and pinch bits of ham off other plates to make an extra plate. Brilliant. It is wedding season.

Today is the society wedding of the year. The billionaire Duke of Westminster will marry Olivia Henson in Chester Cathedral in front of around 400 people with Prince William as one of his ushers. In March, India's richest man Mukesh Amb, had a three-day pre-wedding party for his eldest son, Ananth Ambani, and his future wife, Radhika Merchant, which included a performance from Rihanna for their 1,200 guests. Last week saw the second pre-wedding party. The family reportedly took 800 guests on a cruise from Italy to the south of France with performances from Katy Perry and the Backstreet Boys. Incredible stuff. And so as we head towards summer, and lots of our listeners will have their weekends taken up by weddings,

I'm joined now by Liz Wise, who's etiquette advisor for Debrez, and journalist Rebecca Reid to talk about the dilemma around plus ones. Let's just help everybody out here. Rebecca, I'm going to come to you first. How many weddings do you have coming up this this year so I think this year is eight last year was seven and next year is looking to be six you are popular I'm a tier two friend for a lot of friendship groups come on I get the call up um where I'm kind of like oh should we invite Rebecca I'm borderline for a lot of people I think um I'm supporting cast member um but I've also got three

hens this year and I had three last year I think there'll be two next year so yeah basically it's my second job Liz uh what would you say is the general etiquette uh when it comes to asking for a plus one on a wedding well I think like all invitations, wedding invitations, you need to make it clear what your policy is at the outset. So if you want to invite people as plus ones, you should find out their name and you should specify it on the invitation. And that's fine. If you don't want to or if you've got restricted numbers, you should make it clear to your friends that that's going to be an issue. And that way, all confusion is avoided at the outset. That sounds pretty straightforward to me. Rebecca, are you someone who asks to bring a plus one?

Are you a single friend? Is that where you're getting invited to all these weddings? Well, so I was single last, so I was married and then I was single and I'm in a relationship. So the last three wedding seasons I've done, I have been a different person for each one um new relationship about a year in okay I actually ironically brought him with me to the studio today as a plus one because I did okay good I emailed and said can I bring my boyfriend they're like that's weird but okay um we had I told him we were having the morning off and then I was like sorry women's hour called you don't say no to women's hour brilliant um but so I have a controversial view on plus ones which is

I think they should be in support of the guest rather than the bride so it's very easy to be like we'll just invite the people whose partners we know really well or the ones we like the most and to me it's about how much uh the person's going to enjoy the event event with or without one so at my wedding the marriage didn't last but the wedding was really good um all of my school friends who all know each other really well and who all live fairly close i didn't give them plus ones because they didn't need to stay overnight and they wanted to catch up with each other they're a crew they're a crew so it was an all-girl table of 10 and they because they only really wanted to talk to each other whereas for instance my best friend a makeup artist didn't

know anybody else so obviously i wanted to bring her husband i didn't know her husband very well but she needed a social security blanket because otherwise it's really hard turning up alone. So I think you should think about people's needs individually rather than just a blanket policy for who gets to have one or not. Oh, Liz, what do you think about that? Sounds pretty reasonable. I think that's quite a good approach if you can afford to do it and if you have the capacity and i think that's the issue i mean weddings are incredibly expensive every you know every individual has a price on their head so to speak um and sometimes you know you need to prioritize the people you

really care about rather than people that you you haven't met met and you don't know. I appreciate that it's kind of hard sometimes for people to go to weddings without a partner as backup. But again, as a host, you should be aware of that and you should place them on a table where, you know, they'll be, you know, with friendly people and just make sure they're well looked after. So I think it's really a decision about what your capacity

and your expenditure is going to be. We've had quite a few messages in on this, so I'm going to read a couple and see what you think. Sarah's been in touch to say, I tried to please everyone but still managed to get it wrong. A work colleague got funny with me because I didn't invite her boyfriend of three weeks and my in-laws insisted on friends of theirs, this great coming whom my husband and I had never met I've sworn I will never assume and

be forever grateful to anyone who chooses to invite me to their wedding in the future the politics around this what do you do Liz with in-laws who want to invite friends that you've never met how do you and they're going to be your new in-laws i know i know it's very it's all very very difficult but i really do think in that instance you should put your foot down um i don't think you should have a wedding uh that's you know populated by people that you just don't know i mean that's just not what weddings are about every south asian person listening to this is crying with laughter. Yeah, I'm talking about UK weddings.

I'm also talking about weddings that are not incredibly big, where you can sort of lose a whole load of strangers without really noticing them. But I think for most people with an average sized wedding in the UK, you don't want to be inundated by people you don't know. Rebecca how are you going to handle the cost of all these weddings? It's wonderful to feel this popular you're going to have a great time but dresses, travel, accommodation I'm presuming some will be abroad. Yeah and also hendus were abroad and bridal showers and mini showers because you can't go to the

manger are you gonna go to all of them i think well yes because i do love these people but overall i think i was just trying to do some some fast maths in my head to work out whether i will spend more in my lifetime on going to weddings than i did on my own wedding and i think they might work out roughly comparable because it's all it's you know it's a hotel it's drinks when you get there it's a present for them it's an outfit for you and I know everyone says you don't have to buy a new outfit but I always say I'm not going to and then I'm panicking running around a department store the day before because I hate everything I own um so yeah I think it does work out I found I spend about 400 pounds each time I go to a wedding so having a plus one is a huge help because it means that you can force the person who you've trapped into loving you to then split the cost of the hotel and the petrol to get there or the train tickets.

So I think it is a massive, massive help to be in a relationship. We all know being in a relationship is cheaper than being single, unfortunately. You are a good friend. I'd have to edit that list down and make big decisions. Also, there's a finite number of weekends. I don't have weekends. I have weddings. You have weddings.

Of course, it's your social life. Okay, what about uh children um and how do you feel about people uh deciding to have child-free weddings so I'm a single mum so if you're having a child-free wedding it means that I have to find uh child care overnight which is anybody who's got kids all know is incredibly hard to do so I don't mind people doing it it's their wedding and their choice but you have to be reasonable if people say no I can't come and the thing that It's their wedding and their choice. But you have to be reasonable if people say, no, I can't come. And the thing that drives me mad is when people put on an invitation, in order for you to have a relaxing day, we would prefer that children stayed at home.

Because it's so patronising. And is it really about you? Of course it's not about me. They don't care about me. And also, I love my child. Being with my child makes me happy. So this assumption that I'm better off without my child is presumptuous and annoying. God, this is getting so juicy. I'm getting so into it.

And we've got a minute left. Liz, children at weddings, the French, the French, how do the French do it? They don't do it, do they? They're all child free weddings. I believe they are. I mean, I think it's a matter of personal choice. Of course it is. But again, you've got to make it completely clear at the outset. You know, if you've got children and they're not mentioned on your invitation, you will probably assume that they're included unless you're told otherwise. And all sorts of embarrassing repercussions

are going to occur. So I think as always, it's always about explaining yourself well in advance so that people know that they've got to make provision or whatever. Rebecca, when's your next wedding? Are you taking a plus one? Are you taking your child?

I'm going to one next weekend. My child is not invited, despite the fact that the bride is her godmother. What? Come on, this is... Luckily, my mum has stepped up once again. And so her social life is now looking after my child. And what's that done to your friendship? The fact that the godmother has said...

Oh, it's fine. But she's got married twice to Hendus, so she's racking them up. Wonderful. It's been such a joy talking to both of you. We have learned so much. We've been making notes, Liz, as well. Liz Wise, etiquette advisor from Debrex and Rebecca Reid.

Thank you. Ali's been in touch to say, I got married in 1988 and would probably change everything about my wedding. As regards to the guest list, it was organised by my parents and my parents-in-law and included relatives who neither my husband nor myself had met before. I decided not to invite my previous boyfriend, which I deeply regret as he has remained a lifelong friend. I would change the guest list entirely. That's all from me. Do join Nuala on Monday.

That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Do you know Powys? I did a bit of hiking there a few years ago. A village called Bly. It's not on the tourist trail. The Specialist by Matthew Broughton. The local GP has died unexpectedly.

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