Woman's Hour - Poet- Lady Unchained. The Conservative leadership. Covid. Telford. Abortion memories

Episode Date: July 13, 2022

Conservative MPs start voting in the first round ballot to see who will take over from Boris Johnson as Conservative Party leader and Prime Minister - 4 women and 4 men ,after the candidates were reduced to eight contenders. Some of the policy areas being debated are familiar: tax, immigration and our relationship with the EU. Some are less so and quite new to the political battlefield as defining issues for the candidates, such as what do each of them think constitutes being a woman. It is also striking that the political ghost of one woman is being invoked left, right and centre - Margaret Thatcher. Emma talks to Mrs Thatcher's former private secretary, Caroline Slocock. We also talk to Ella Robertson McKay the National Chair of the Conservative Young Women - which is made up of women under the age of 35. She reveals the results of a poll of their membership which asked who they want to be Prime Minister. Cases of Covid have been rising rapidly in the UK in recent weeks and new data in a report out today from the Parliamentary Public Accounts Committee shows that by the end of May 2022 nearly three million adults in England are unvaccinated. While overall uptake has been high, it has been low with particular groups - including pregnant women and some ethnic minorities. We talk to Marian Knight, Professor of Maternal and Child Population Health at Oxford University.Obvious evidence of child sex crimes in Telford was ignored for generations leading to more than 1,000 girls being abused, an inquiry has found. Agencies blamed children for the abuse they suffered, not the perpetrators, and exploitation was not investigated because of "nervousness about race". Chairman Tom Crowther QC said the abuse had thrived unchecked for decades. His report makes 47 recommendations for improvement by agencies involved. West Mercia Police has apologised "unequivocally" for past events as has Telford & Wrekin Council. Emma talks to Richard Scorer, a solicitor with Slater and Gordon who has represented many victims and survivors of child sexual abuse.In 2019 we asked our listeners ‘Have you had an abortion? How did you feel about it then and how do you feel about it now?’ 5 women told us about their personal experience of having an abortion. Today, a woman we are calling Clare remembers getting on the bus in her school uniform to access an abortion more than 30 years ago.When ‘Lady Unchained’ was 21, she was sentenced to two and a half years in prison following a fight in a club when trying to protect her sister. Picking up the pen to survive in prison, she began to write and perform poetry. Since her release, Lady Unchained has made it her mission to become an advocate for life after prison - a poet, performer, award winning broadcaster. She is the Founder and Creative Director of Unchained Poetry, an artistic platform for artists with lived experience of the criminal justice system, and runs poetry workshops in prisons and in Women Centres. We speak to her as she releases her debut poetry book: ‘Behind Bars: On punishment, prison & release’, a culmination of her work during and after prison.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. Far from the race to be Prime Minister playing out in the sweaty meeting rooms of Westminster is this reality. Covid cases are rising rapidly in the UK, especially in the last few weeks. A new data in a report out today from the Parliamentary Public Accounts Committee shows that by the end of May 2022, nearly 3 million adults in England were unvaccinated. While overall uptake has been high, it has been low with particular groups, including pregnant women and some ethnic minorities. And what I wanted to ask you today is, do you know people who aren't vaccinated?

Or maybe they've only had one and then didn't continue with the programme. Have you been having those sorts of conversations? And those who are listening, pregnant women amongst our listeners this morning, if you are with us live or you're listening later, I would be very interested to hear from you about whether you are vaccinated. You don't have to give your real name. You don't have to give any name. But if you are, what made you do it?

Had you already perhaps been vaccinated before becoming pregnant or have you done it while you have been pregnant? If you are not, why not? Do get in touch. 84844. You can text me here at Woman's Hour. Text will be charged charged your standard message

rate on social media we're at bbc women's hour or email us through the women's hour website perhaps you are having these conversations again in your house maybe they were very very live those exchanges i remember when we talked about this on the program before about convincing some people in your life maybe they're coming back though now with concerns around COVID again, especially I know we're in a heat wave, but as thoughts turn to the autumn and then the winter and thoughts of a further booster programme

for those in the older generation. So if you are not vaccinated, why not? And if you are having those conversations with those who have been highlighted as not being vaccinated, how are they going? Give us a flavour. Also on today's programme, what is a

woman? A question prospective prime ministers are going to be asked, maybe, we think, during the leadership race, probably for the first time. We're going to look at that and other key questions likely to come up. As an inquiry finds that evidence of child sex crimes in Telford was ignored, leading to more than 1,000 girls being abused. We're also going to try and understand whether there will be any compensation for the victims. And the poet Lady Unchained joins me to talk about writing her way out of prison. All that to come.

But this lunchtime, Conservative MPs will start voting in the first round ballot to see who will take over from Boris Johnson as Conservative Party leader and our Prime Minister. Four women and four men remain after the candidates were reduced to eight contenders yesterday. The female candidates are former Equalities Minister Kemi Badenoch, Attorney General Suella Braverman, Trade Minister Penny Mordaunt and Foreign Secretary and Women's Minister Liz Truss.

The male wannabes are former Chancellor Rishi Sunak, current Chancellor Nadine Zahawi, former Health and Foreign Secretary and Women's Minister Liz Truss. The male wannabes are former Chancellor Rishi Sunak, current Chancellor Nadine Zahawi, former Health and Foreign Secretary Jeremy Hunt and Tom Tugendhat. Some of the policy areas being debated are very familiar, especially to the Conservative heartlands, tax, immigration and our relationship with the European Union. Some are less so and quite new to the political battlefield and becoming defining issues it seems at this stage for the candidates such as what do each of them think constitutes being a woman. It's also striking that the political ghost of one woman is being invoked left right and centre pardon the political preferences there in some ways Margaret Thatcher of course. Her former

private secretary Caroline Slocum joins me now she's also a former head of the Equal Opportunities Commission. Caroline, good morning. Good morning. Let's just start with Thatcher. It's very striking on the front page of The Telegraph, of course, still a paper which speaks to and it can be argued represents a lot of Conservative members or those who may vote Conservative. That's the headline today with what Rishi Sunak has promised, to be like Thatcher. What do you make of that as someone who worked for her? Well, I mean, I think it's very interesting that he and I think other candidates, you know, let's think of Liz Truss trying, you know, sitting on a tank trying to directly mirror the Thatcherite image a few months ago. You know, they're appealing back to the kind of Thatcherite roots.

It's very backward looking, actually. And, you know, to my mind, it's showing a lack of an agenda. But as for Rishi Sunak being a kind of Thatcherite, you know, one of the things which she really cared about was efficiency in government and the efficient use of taxpayers' money. And I think he has actually thrown an awful lot of money about which has been lost in fraud, and I think she'd hate that. She was also very concerned about inflation.

Inflation was the big issue of her day, and she was trying to get inflation down. And I think in that respect, possibly he is that right, because he's the one candidate who isn't promising tax cuts at this point. I suppose without going through each of the eight of them, and if they have invoked Margaret Thatcher, or if they are similar or not, do you find it striking that she is still such a force, even at this point, in 2022, with candidates, you know, I'm looking at the ages of the candidates as well. For instance,

you know, I think three of them are 42. And, you know, they will not necessarily be able to remember themselves each part of Thatcherism, even though they were around for some of it. Yeah, it is extraordinary. And, you know, I suppose it's a tribute to her, you know, that she has that kind of enduring. She's an enduring model of leadership, lover or hater. You know, so I think that's true. But I think, you know, the truth is that these candidates are very on Thatcherite because she had two things. You know, the first was that she actually had a long term vision. You know, she spent probably a decade working it up with colleagues,

mostly in opposition. So she really did have a plan, not just a sort of, you know, a slogan or, you know, a sort of one-off, you know, let's cut some taxes. And the second thing is that she really had some authenticity. You know, you've got to remember that she was a grocer's daughter. You know, she lived above the shop. They didn't have central heating or hot running water for much of her childhood. And that gave her a sort of groundedness, which enabled her to communicate.

You know, she used to talk about being a housewife and, you know, likening the economy to... Come on, wasn't she just using that sort of thing like some of the other candidates are using theirs in the videos we see of their backgrounds and what their families did or didn't do for them? Yeah, I mean, I think they're trying to, but what I'm saying is I think that, you know, let me be clear, I didn't vote for her, I didn't support her, I was just

a civil servant working for her. But the one thing that she did start politics with was actually some authentic roots, which she referred to authentically. And she was authentic. She didn't tell lies. You know, you got what you saw. She was an embodiment of, you know, of a kind of politics,

which is now actually fading away. It is. When they said something. And I think that they're trying to show their backgrounds and so forth. But I think they're really kind of struggling. And, you know, they probably spent, I don't know, you know, a few months working on that campaign. And what you're seeing is a campaign and seeing slick, you know, slick videos. But you're not really seeing much authenticity. So what I would say is that, you know, whoever wins ought to have a plan. It ought to be grounded

in listening to people is what they really care about. And they're not walking around the streets talking about tax. I can tell you that, you know, talking about the cost of living. You know, they're talking about the NHS, housing. You know, they should be listening to people and actually formulating policies on that basis. It can, just let's get to policy then,

because it can seem quite random with some of the areas that come up in the media, certainly at this point as to who's courting which bit of the Conservative Party and what they're saying. regarding the European Court of Human Rights and justice and all of that side of things. There's tax, of course, which ties into cost of living, but tax in itself is very much up on the agenda. And I also mentioned for the first time, what is a woman has come up at this stage. What do you make of the range of topics that certainly seem to be defining people at the moment? Well, they are topics which are obviously live in the electorate for this particular election, which is the Conservative membership. But I don't think they're the things which are really worrying people out in the country, as I was just saying earlier. And there is a danger of kind of losing the plot,

because government is there to govern on behalf of everyone in this country, not just Conservative Party members. And I think, you know, people are not really worried about a lot of those issues. You know, clearly there are a group of people who do feel very strongly, for example, around gender and trans rights. But actually, you know, recent polling suggests that this is not a big issue for the general public, very low down on their list of priorities. So, you know, as I said, I think they really need to actually look beyond the next few weeks and actually think what it's really like to be a prime minister. Having worked for a few prime ministers, who's your money on? Who would you like to see? Who's striking a note for you?

I don't think I'd like to see any of the candidates particularly, but I have to confess I'm not a conservative voter. No, no, I know. Or rather I thought. But if you had to pick one. Well, Rishi is possibly the safest pair of hands because he's not, you know, he's not talking fantasy politics. But I think the one to watch, I think, is actually Penny Mordaunt.

Because I think that she's obviously been warming up the Conservative Party for a long time. And she's got a very deep base there. She's also got quite an authentic backstory. Okay, well, we... Caroline, we will see. And I'm going to talk now to someone who does have a vote.

But as always, thank you for your time and your insights and certainly those reflections having worked for Margaret Thatcher on perhaps why that's the woman that still keeps coming up during this time. Caroline Slocum, who was the former private secretary to Margaret Thatcher and also former head of the Equal Opportunities Commission. MPs will be the ones whittling the candidates down further. And then it goes to the Conservative Party membership. One part of that voting group are under 35 and female. Who do they want and why? Let's ask Ella Robertson-McKay, who's the national chair of the Conservative Young Women, which is made up of women under that age of 35, and joins me now. And I hope, Ella, good morning, to exclusively reveal the results

of a poll that your membership have completed and gives us a bit of an insight. Tell us more. Welcome to the programme. Lovely to speak to you. And it's a really interesting poll. We ask members who they want and we ask members who they think will win. Members want Penny Mordaunt, 35 percent right at the top of the poll, with the next candidate being Kemi Badenok at 15 percent and Rishi then at 14 percent. Tom Tee at 11 and everyone else polling under 10 but uh conservative young women think that rishi will win 48 stonking 48 think that rishi will be our next prime minister with penny mordant at 23 25 sorry and then right down to liz truss is the next candidate at nine and everyone else falling in the single digits so why don't your can you sorry what's the size of this group uh we're 1,200 young women in the Conservative Young Women group. Not the biggest demographic in the party, but an important one nonetheless.

1,200, yes. Because, I mean, often when we think of the Conservative Party membership, we don't think of women under the age of 35. It's probably safe to say because that's definitely not the majority. Why don't your members, your fellow members that you represent in this part of the membership, why don't they like Liz Truss? Hard to say. I think the interesting thing will be you've got Liz Truss, Suella Braverman and Kemi Badenoch who are all sitting to the right of this poll. They are going to get knocked out. I don't know in which order.

And their supporters will then aggregate behind probably one of those three. So whilst they're sitting lower at the moment, there's a chance for one of them to surge. I think Penny is a genuinely popular candidate for a number of reasons. She's held, she's our first female Secretary of State of Defence. She is... Very briefly. Briefly, but I think that was a big moment

for women in the party. She's, without being basic, she's really nice. People like her. It's really hard to go around Westminster and hear someone who's got a bad word to say about her. She's authentic. She's from an ordinary background. And I think she's done a good job

at not getting too into the so-called Westminster dark arts as well. She's popular with the MPs as well. So I think the story here is that at the moment, Rishi is the frontrunner. But as we know, other than Boris Johnson, the frontrunner rarely wins in a conservative leadership race, whether it's Willie Whitelaw, John Major, David Cameron.

Often, Theresa May certainly, often the tall poppy is the one that gets knocked out. So I think it's certainly an interesting race. I've also got some interesting facts on and figures the tall poppy is the one that gets knocked out. So I think it's certainly an interesting race. I've also got some interesting facts on and figures on what our members want people to focus on. 44% say the economy and then 9.6% say public finances as the next most important thing.

So 55% are saying it's the economy. And then we've also asked people what is the most important quality in the next prime minister? And amongst quite a lot of important things like vision, charisma, ability to unite the country, you've got 28% topping it with integrity

and then 14% honesty and transparency. So I think there is a really clear message from the members that- Did your group support Boris Johnson? I would say I was, so I interviewed both Boris and Jeremy Did your group support Boris Johnson? I would say I was. So I interviewed both Boris and Jeremy in the last leadership race and I asked a lot of members and it was fairly evenly divided, probably with a lean towards Boris amongst younger members. So young women that you represent in this part of the party who value integrity also supported Boris Johnson. But we had our conservative young women's summer social recently, and you've got to imagine those are pretty hardcore conservatives

who show up to hang out with other conservatives on the weekends. Not a one thought Boris should stay. Okay, so that's changed. Because I'm only asking that to be extremely clear before I get, I'm sure some of the messages I sometimes do say, you're saying Boris Johnson doesn't have integrity. I'm actually talking about the recent spate of stories where his integrity has been questioned, which has led to events that we saw last week. So for me, it's interesting to hear about your membership in that way.

Yeah, I think that resonates with the members. I think we're all reading the same stories. I think we all had the same privations during lockdown and Partygate was a real issue for a lot of my members. I think also the issue that I, so I will interview the final two candidates and one of the issues I'll be pressing them on, I have to get some tips from you, Emma, is culture of sexual harassment in Westminster. Lots of my members are Westminster staffers.

We've just lost two by-elections off the back of sexual misconduct. We've got another two MPs who've had the whip suspended. Now, it's not just the Tories. The SNP chief whips just had to step down over allegations of sexual harassment.

But the Prime Minister has got to set a new tone. Westminster cannot be a place where staffers are regularly harassed. And very briefly, I'd be very interested to hear the answers to those questions. I'll watch out for your interview and who then obviously gets to the top two. But in terms of what we

were just talking about, how important that potential question of what is a woman, if that does continue to be something within this, because of course, Penny Mordaunt, her answer has been debated on that. And I don't need you to go through each of the candidates. There's eight here, but we don't even know the views. I don't think of all of them. But do you as young women in the party, do you care about that? I think it's going to be very important to some members. But as I've said, 55% are saying it's the economy.

I think culture war, it's a shame if this gets dragged into culture wars because there are really, really big issues like Ukraine, like the cost of living, like housing. Young people are finding it so hard to buy a house, like the climate crisis. And I think I hope that this leadership contest stays focused on those issues. Not that matters of gender aren't important, but you 55% are saying let's focus on the economy. What do you do for a job? Do you work in a party? I run a non-political charity. OK, do you want to be an MP? I'm on the candidates list.

I stood in Scotland last year for Holyrood. So I'm going to give it a crack. It's quite tough in Scotland for conservatives at the moment, but we'll see how things change. It's very good to have you on the programme. I look forward to hearing more. And thank you for giving us the insights of the women that you speak for, the National Chair of Conservative Young Women there, Ella Robertson McKay. Your messages, I have to say, while we're talking there, there's a few coming in around

leadership, not least about how women are perceived on the global stage. So you can get to PM again, there could be a third female leader, but perhaps how then women are perceived is different. But you've also been getting in touch about COVID. And I'll come to some of these messages, but let me remind you why. Because, you know, far from this leadership race, cases of COVID are rising rapidly in the UK in recent weeks. A new data and a report out today from the Parliamentary Public Accounts Committee, an interesting committee to have this from, shows that by the end of May 2022, nearly 3 million adults in England were unvaccinated. So just looking at England there, while overall uptake has been high,

it has been low with particular groups, including pregnant women and some ethnic minorities. Fresh waves of COVID are also now being seen in other countries because of waning immunity and new COVID variants. The virus keeps mutating or changing, and the chief executive of the World Health Organization has warned that the pandemic is nowhere near over. It's interesting to see what we're just talking about, what the candidates are focusing on, that COVID isn't in there. The health service might be, but COVID isn't.

I'm joined now by Marion Knight, professor of Maternal and Child Population Health at Oxford University. Marion, good morning. Good morning. Three million people still not vaccinated in England as of the end of May. Your reaction to that, first of all? So I think it's really important that we do recognise the protection that vaccination can give you and therefore to continue to focus on the importance of talking with and addressing the concerns of those that haven't yet been vaccinated. Yes and those concerns let me tell you are coming in about in particular other areas too about

whether to be vaccinated when you're pregnant. For pregnant women who are listening, Marion, what would you say to them? It absolutely is really important for both you and your baby to be vaccinated when you're pregnant. We know that pregnant women are at significant risk of more severe infection from COVID-19. And we know from the research that we've carried out

that if you're unvaccinated, the Omicron variant is just as severe as we were seeing right back in March 2020 when COVID first reached our shores. We know that vaccination is safe. Many, many thousands of women have had vaccination and no concerns over miscarriage or pregnancy loss.

And in fact, we do know that you're less likely to have a stillbirth, for example, if you've been vaccinated compared to if you haven't. So I really can't emphasise how important it is to get that vaccine if you're pregnant. And yet there are messages from those who just are hearing you perhaps or have heard things from you, from people like you, your colleagues, and they still won't do it. How can you have these conversations effectively? So I think the really important thing is for individual women to have that conversation with their trusted health professional.

Talk with your midwife, talk with your obstetrician, talk with your GP who will know your individual circumstances, to you about your concerns and about and and exactly those uh the the nuance around um what is going to be best for you and your baby um i imagine there's lots of people listening to this on the radio and saying yes we've heard that all before actually i don't i think we really have to make sure that those those conversations are you're having those conversations at an individual level, because it's really difficult to, in a general conversation, to address exactly everybody's individual concerns. I should say others are also messaging to say they're pregnant or were pregnant and they were vaccinated.

You know, for instance, there's one here, I'm 33 weeks pregnant. I had my first daughter in October 2020. My first pregnancy, obviously, at the start of COVID and being in the vulnerable bracket back then was awful. If a vaccine was available back then, I would have had it ASAP. I had my first dose when breastfeeding and my third when newly pregnant with my second baby. I'm so glad I've had all three doses

and didn't have any hesitation at any stage to get the jab. I'm also very glad to be this pregnant and up to date, given how the cases are increasing all the time. And there's another message to a similar point about how they had assuaged their concerns over this. Because as you say, there isn't any data, you tell me if I'm getting this right, linking to higher rate of impact on miscarriage or anything in terms of the risk to the baby?

Absolutely not. In fact, the data shows the opposite, that your baby is less at risk if you have been vaccinated. Because it's extremely dangerous to catch COVID, to test positive for COVID while you are pregnant. Exactly. So you are twice as likely to have severe COVID if you are pregnant compared to if you're not pregnant. And we know that sadly, of the women who are admitted to hospital in pregnancy with symptomatic COVID, around 1% of those women will have a stillborn baby. And that's the last thing we want. Another woman's written in saying, I'm a black woman and I'm vaccinated, but I know that very few people in my community who are. And she goes on to talk about experiments. She goes to mention the thalidomide scandal. She says science has proved itself willing to destroy life in favour of knowledge. And inverted commas. More recently, the high death rate of black babies and maternal death shows how poorly we are cared for or carelessly within our health care system.

So a trust issue there generally. I think that that's a very important issue to raise. And that's why we've got to work with communities, with community groups. There's not going to be a one size fits all answer to addressing women's concerns. It's fantastic that your listener has had her vaccine. And she's a fantastic role model for her community and it's with leaders like that that we need to work to make sure that these concerns which you know have their origins long ago in history are addressed. Marion Knight, Professor of Maternal and Child Population Health at Oxford University, thank you. Now obvious evidence of child sex crimes in Telford was ignored for

generations, leading to more than a thousand girls being abused. That is what an inquiry has found that came out towards the end of yesterday. Agencies blamed children for the abuse they suffered, not the perpetrators, and exploitation was not investigated because of, quote, nervousness about race. Chairman Tom Crowther QC said the abuse had thrived unchecked for decades. His report makes 47 recommendations for improvement by agencies involved. West Mercia Police has apologised unequivocally for past events, has had, as has, excuse me, Telford and Recon Council. We know this report comes off the back of similar inquiries

into child sexual abuse in other English towns and cities, including, I'm sure you'll recall, Rotherham, Rochdale, Oldham and Oxford. Joining me now, Richard Scorer, a solicitor with Slater & Gordon who has represented many victims and survivors of child sexual abuse. Good morning, Richard. Good morning. More than a thousand girls abused over 30 years. That's not in a city, just a town in Shropshire. Some apologies now from police and the council. Is that enough? Well, it's a very shocking report. Of course, it could probably have been written about many, many parts of the UK. I mean, we've seen this in Oldham, we've seen this in Rochdale, we've seen this in other areas that you've mentioned, and the sorts of systemic

failures that are set out in this report, I think are nationwide. So it's a dreadful situation that we're in. I think the problem is then compounded by the fact that when victims in this situation try to get compensated, get reparation for the appalling abuse that they've suffered, they discover the law is in a very unsatisfactory state. In fact, the law is in an unacceptable state and in fact, I think is letting many victims down. What kind of recourse will these women have to any financial compensation? Is there a route? Well, there are routes. I need to preface what I'm about to say by emphasising that each case is individual and anybody who is interested in looking at compensation in this area should get specialist legal advice. That's really important.

The law is very complex. However, there are significant problems with the law. And if you take the situation which we often come across in these cases where social services have known that a child is being abused, for example, but have failed to do anything about that or failed to take sufficient action, what we now have is in effect a two-tier system of compensation so that a child who is in state care, who is in local authority care, when that failing happens, will probably have the opportunity to pursue a compensation claim. But a child who is simply living in the community, so a situation where the local authority is not the corporate parent, may in effect be barred from pursuing compensation because of the state of the law.

So that's a two tier situation that we have and clearly very unsatisfactory. So those who haven't been in the care of the state in any way have no roots at all? Well, there are certain roots that they may have. What I've been talking about there is what we call the common law, which is judge-made law. The other possibility that victims can pursue is the Human Rights Act, but there are a whole host of difficulties and complexities associated with that, particularly around things like time limits and funding for cases. And then the other option is what we call the criminal injuries compensation scheme, which is a government funded body, which is set up to compensate victims of crime.

But there again, there are problems with that. The criminal injuries compensation scheme can reduce or withhold compensation where the victim has a criminal record, which of course is a situation that arises in many of these cases because of the nature of the abuse that has happened. But also the awards under the criminal injury scheme are very, very low. So anybody who has been the victim of abuse in this type of situation will want to try and pursue compensation through the civil courts. And that's where they come up against the obstacles that I've been describing. In your experience, your ample experience in this area, representing survivors of this kind of abuse, do a lot want to walk away and not pursue anything at all? Well, I think the need to pursue compensation is driven by the fact that this is very serious abuse. And I mean, I've done these cases for 25 years and

the street grooming cases involve the most serious and extreme types of abuse that I've ever seen. And young women in that situation obviously need some support for moving forward in their lives. And that's where the big gap is, because if they can't get compensation, they often can't get the therapy that they need, the proper specialist therapy because if they can't get compensation they often can't get the therapy that they need the proper specialist therapy and they can't start to rebuild their lives after um what's happened so there is a real need for compensation in this area i was just gonna say i'm struggling to get jobs at times and employment uh to support themselves as well richard scorer thank you very much indeed a solicitor with slater and gordon who's represented many victims and survivors of child sexual abuse.

Just wanted to read this anonymous email which says, Morning Emma, going back to Covid. My daughter-in-law is a radical anti-vaxxer and refuses any kind of debate about her stance which makes things very difficult between us. Not only am I worried about her health and the impact that would have on my son and grandchildren, but given her anti-vax position,

she will not allow her children to be vaccinated against anything. The rise of COVID and things like the return of TB makes me very worried indeed. Any whisper of debate around the subject of vaccines sends her into a complete indignant rage, and I am at a loss as to what to do to protect my grandchildren.

I wonder how many other grandparents are out there in the same position. As I say, no name on that message. You can choose to do the same, but maybe you are in that boat. Do get in touch with me here at Women's Hour, 84844. And perhaps we'll have further discussions along those lines. But last month in the US, Roe v. Wade was overturned by the Supreme Court. And in at least 10 states, abortion is now banned, with more likely to follow.

On Monday, the Biden administration said that abortion must be available if the woman's life is at risk, even if an overall ban is in place in that particular state. It's fair to say that there is scepticism as to whether that advice may have any impact from the president. For instance, let's look closer to home. In Northern Ireland, abortion is still difficult to access, three years after it was decriminalised.

The abortion debate is never far from the news, not least at the moment with what happened in America. Both sides argue their case passionately. Three years ago, we asked you, our listeners, these questions. Have you had an abortion? How did you feel about it then? And how do you feel about it now? In a series first broadcast in 2019,

we heard powerful personal stories. You may remember some of them. You may have got in touch. Some of the women we were hearing from behind the statistics and news stories about abortion. Some of the terminology has changed since then, but the issues raised are more important than ever, and we wanted to reshare some of them over the next few weeks.

Today we hear from a woman we are calling Claire, who got pregnant in the 80s in rural Scotland just before her 18th birthday. It's more than 30 years since she had the termination, but she hadn't talked about the experience she had as a schoolgirl until she met our reporter, Henrietta Harrison. I'd met somebody and we were becoming very close and I wanted us to have a relationship and I thought about it really carefully because I was quite afraid

and I did some research. I went and made an appointment, spoke to a nurse and was referred to one of the doctors who prescribed the contraceptive pill for me and I read everything faithfully and I took it faithfully. And after a fairly short space of time, I started to feel unwell and I worried that it was something to do with the pill or a reaction I was having. I had to go to the doctor in school time, so I had to get a bus from my school

into the local town and across town and then out to the doctor. He gave me what was, I mean, it looked like a yoghurt pot. It was ridiculous. And in my school uniform, I sort of walked out across the waiting room, which was full of people. And it was the only way to get to the toilet. So I had to walk in my school uniform with this yoghurt pot thing, which was quite clear what I was going to do. And I came back with the yoghurt pot full, back through the waiting room, and I just felt so humiliated. He didn't say I want to do a pregnancy test, but I was pretty sure that's what he was going to do.

And I went back into the room and he sat down and basically dipped a piece of paper in it and then said, well, congratulations, you're pregnant. And I looked at him and I thought, I'm sitting here in my school uniform. And also he knew a bit about me because he was a family doctor, quite traditional. And also the place I came from, there were a few people who dropped out of my school

because they became pregnant when they were 13, 14, 15. So maybe for him, the fact that I'd made it to almost 18 and was pregnant wasn't any big problem I reached into the pocket of my school coat and I pulled out the packet and it was all bashed up because it had been hidden in a drawer and most of the pills had been taken and I gave it to him and he looked at it and he went oh god and he literally smacked his forehead with with the palm of his hand and said oh god I meant to give you the 30 milligram and I gave you the 20 milligram or something of that ilk. And essentially he'd prescribed a dose which he knew wasn't going to protect me.

And then he said that, he said, you know what, that would never have protected you. And I felt like saying, oh, well, that's okay then. And I'm sitting there thinking, how can you possibly do that you're a doctor I asked you for the contraceptive pill because I wanted to have a safe relationship obviously it's not 100% safe but I didn't want to get pregnant and here I am with you congratulating me in my school uniform because I'm now pregnant he knew that I was in the middle of my final exams and he knew that after the summer there would be university waiting for me presumably. What did you think your choices were? I mean I just couldn't I don't think I really could take it in and I just kept thinking how am I going to

tell people oh my god and then he kind of rummaged about in his drawer, in his in-tray, and handed me a bundle of leaflets that said things like, you know, from your first baby and had pictures of people holding children up in the sunshine and looking delighted to, you know, some kind of local religious adoption service and then abortion services in your area. And I just looked at this pile of leaflets and that was that was essentially it and he said I think you should have a read of these and if you need to see me you can make another appointment and that was it you know and he was already making notes in his file and I just sort of picked up the stuff and sort of

shoved it into my school bag and realized I had to make tracks to get back and get the bus home so I could go home and pretend nothing had happened so just I just felt so upset and so afraid and so angry and so worried because I thought am I going to have a child? And in our family, very negative terms were used about young mothers and unmarried mothers. You know, terms that you just couldn't hear nowadays, like gym slip mothers and trollops and things. You just, I mean, even at the time, I found it appalling. You know, I was just, I just felt so broken by it all. I felt really broken by it because I didn't know how I was just I just felt so broken by it all I felt really broken by it because I didn't know how I was going to deal with it how I was going to tell people what would happen if people guessed because I kept thinking I must

look different I kept thinking us you know I must have a belly that's showing even though that's ridiculous because I just couldn't imagine what was going to happen I couldn't imagine and I was just in a state of terror and and at the same time worried about not getting back from school on time, which is ridiculous, you know. So you had the three leaflets. I mean, did you in any way consider having the child, having the child adopted? You'd got these three options. I thought about it for a really short space of time and I tried to imagine myself with a child. I tried to imagine myself living independently and I realized that that wasn't going to happen because I couldn't

imagine it and also my partner was was great and I really liked him but I I didn't think there was going to be any major long-term future and I really liked him but I couldn't imagine him pushing a pram and I was together. That wasn't an option. And the idea of a child that was then going to be given up for adoption just wasn't, I mean, that just wasn't going to happen either. I couldn't imagine my parents' faces as they walked about with their pregnant daughter, you know, because my mother would have died of humiliation. My father would have been so ashamed and everybody would have talked about it, you know. Not that that maybe bothered me, but I knew how much of an effect it would have on my parents.

You decided to have an abortion. How did that procedure then come about? I did some more digging and discovered that there was a well-woman service that I could visit. So I discussed the possibility of abortion very soon afterwards within you know less than a week because I knew that's what I wanted and the nurse there was really helpful and supportive and she spoke to me about other options just to be sure that I was sure about what I was doing so she kind of went away and came back and she gave me an appointment card with a you know handwritten note of the time and the place, gave me a date about 10 days after that. And so I went home, hid the appointment card and worked out that day what I had to do

and make sure that I could get there and back again on the school bus essentially. So I was in my school uniform, sitting on the bus, clutching my bag full of jotters and it's like somebody else's life. And I went to the outpatients department and pushed the door open and there were lots of people sitting about and there were one or two people who looked like they were in quite steady relationships and very upset about what was happening there were a few people who looked not dissimilar to my age nobody had a school uniform on there were a couple of mothers wringing their hands beside girls and there were one or two people with partners

who just didn't look at each other and didn't look at anyone else in the room. And I just felt this collective sadness, this collective humiliation, this sort of sense of doom and sense of kind of tragedy about the whole thing. I'm really the sort of person who goes into a waiting room and cracks a joke or says something or makes a cheeky comment. That's the way I've always been. I probably get it from my

father. But I always do that. And this was the only time that I just knew there was nothing to be said, absolutely nothing to be said. And I sat there looking at the ground and sort of, you know, counting the drawing pins and the pictures. And then they called me through and the procedure was done and and it was it was much quicker than I thought it was much less painful than I thought but I'd been given a local anaesthetic and then I was kind of helped out and and given paper towels and paper pants and everything kind of rustled and the nurse who had been looking after me when she brought me in came back and she saw that I was looking a bit wobbly and she gave me a hug and she said you know it'll all be better soon love it'll all be better soon and she gave me a massive hug and she was lovely and I think about

it now I think I think about it now and think about her saying it'll all be better soon and I think I'm so much older I'm so much braver I'm so much stronger but yet it just makes me feel so awful because I feel ashamed of the way I ought to feel about it but I knew it was the only thing I could do it was the only thing I could do and I couldn't possibly have had that child I couldn't possibly have it's extraordinary to think that this happened to you 30 years ago and you talk about it as clearly as it happened yesterday yeah the memory is is is so clear and it it's one of a lot of different memories that I have in my life that that I can press a button in my head and they come back like a movie and it's not worn out because it's an old video cassette it's just so clear I remember every moment of that I remember every moment of it and I remember the sensation as I got on the bus and I had these enormous pads in my pants which just felt like a nappy

and I sat on the bus thinking everybody must know everybody must know that I'm sure they're all looking at me and I didn't look at them I looked at the ground I looked out the window I looked everywhere but around me because I was I was convinced that people were looking at me I'm sure nobody was I'm certain nobody was but but I I just had this feeling that people must be looking at me and thinking, for God's sake, look at her, how shameful. I'd asked the nurse if it was possible to get an appointment late morning, early afternoon, so that I could get back.

Because I said to her, I literally said, I have to get home, I have to get home on the school bus. She said, it's OK, darling, I understand. And she made sure that happened. So I got on the bus in the morning, got off at school, walked to the bus station, went to hospital, had the abortion, got back on the bus, got back to school and then got on the school bus as if nothing had happened. You didn't tell anyone. You didn't tell a friend. You didn't tell a partner. You didn't tell a parent. Do you know why that was really it's a hard question to answer why didn't why

didn't i tell people i i didn't know what to say i thought that people would judge me i probably still do i do that's probably why i haven't spoken about it until now in fact i mentioned this to one of my very, very close friends recently, and she said, well, I didn't know about that, but you've told me now. And she kind of laughed and said, that's really funny because you're so open about many other things. And I think maybe that just by not telling people, it just shut it down and it made it almost not happen in a way.

And also because my mind was so fixed on going to university because I knew that was what was expected of me. And I knew that, you know, plan B was not an option in any way, shape or form, whether that was adoption, having it, you know, whatever it might be. It was just pressing the stop button on a situation which should never have happened. I can understand in a way that not telling anyone at the time made it simpler, but not having told anyone in the last 30 years I find that harder to understand can you explain why you've really not told anyone since I think yeah I think it's fear of judgment and I think now I you know I'm I'm in my mid-40s I live quite a comfortable middle-class existence I've got lots of friends who some of whom have children some of whom don't

have children and would desperately like to have children some of whom have been through IVF and the idea of being the middle class woman who actually took the life of a child as some people look at it they look at it that way and think my god, well you don't deserve to have children and I shouldn't care about that I shouldn't think that that's an important thing

I shouldn't want to be bothered about that. But the people that I would be speaking to about it are the same people that were my peers at the time who probably would have thought the same things about women who were, you know, sleeping around or trying to get a council house or whatever their thoughts about teenage pregnancies were. So that's probably why I haven't spoken about it. One of the things you said to me on the phone, which I found astonishing, is that you find it easier to tell people about childhood abuse than you do the abortion that you had at 18. Why do you think that is?

It's a strange thing. I mean, at the time, I couldn't talk about it because I didn't have the vocabulary. I didn't have the lexicon that let me describe what was going on and also maybe it's one of these things that people feel that it's okay to be a victim but it's not okay to have made an unborn child a victim which is a ridiculous thing to say but maybe that's what it is but it's taken you 30 years to be able to talk about it it has yeah it has taken me 30 years and I'm glad I'm speaking about it now. I really wish I'd spoken about it a long time ago. I just, it's kind of a bone of contention that I have with myself. I'm so angry with myself for not speaking about it and feeling ashamed of something that really, there's no shame in it.

Pro-life campaigners would say that you've ended a life, that what you've done is wicked, that the unborn child has rights. How do you respond to that? I understand that. I understand people's feelings about the unborn child, the foetus. I understand that completely and I know that it can be a very controversial choice. But I think that ultimately a woman's body is her own body. Now if that decision can be made with the partner, that's fine. very controversial choice but I think that ultimately a woman's body is her own body. Now if that decision can be made with the partner that's fine. If the decision has to be made by the woman ultimately it's the woman who carries the child. It's about us making decisions about ourselves, about our future and about our bodies but in any case I feel that I made a decision

about myself, I made a decision about my body, and that was the most important thing for me. I feel kind of ashamed because I grew up with a very strongly feminist mother, grew up with a lot of intelligent people around me, so the fact that I couldn't speak about something which is such a fundamentally important issue for all women, I feel quite ashamed of that, but not about what I did. I feel ashamed of not speaking, so I'm proud and I hope we have really moved on. You were certain at the time that you made the right decision.

30 years on, do you still think you made the right decision? 30 years on, I am absolutely 100% sure that I made the right decision because a girl who I was friends with at the time phoned me up a few weeks after my abortion, which she didn't know about. And she phoned me to tell me that she was in hospital and she was having an abortion and she was pregnant to who was by that point my ex and so I feel like I absolutely made the right decision yes I did. The reporter there was Henrietta Harrison for a list of organisations offering support do visit the BBC Actionline website bbc.co.uk forward slash

Action Line, next time the story of a woman we're calling Amanda. She felt pressured into having an abortion and it took her 25 years to come to terms with it. And if the overturning of Roe v Wade in America has made you think about an abortion you had or didn't have, we would like to hear from you. 84844 or through the Woman's Hour website. Do get in touch if you feel you can. Now, when the poet known as Lady Unchained was 21, she was sentenced to two and a half years in prison for grievous bodily harm following a fight in a club while trying to protect her sister. Picking up the pen as part of her survival in prison, she began to write and perform poetry. Lady Unchained is now a poet, performer and an award-winning broadcaster. She's also the founder

and creative director of Unchained Poetry, an artistic platform for artists with experience of the criminal justice system. And now comes the book, her first poetry book, Behind Bars, on punishment, prison and release. A culmination of her work during and after prison. And she's just joined me in the studio. Lady Unchained, good morning. Good morning. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you so much for being here.

And one of the poems in the book is called Good Girl Gone Bad. And it's the first poem you wrote in prison. Yeah, it is. Tell us about that and why you felt drawn to poetry. It's so crazy. Like, I think at the time, I didn't even really believe I was writing poetry. It was just a way to deal with the emotions

and the loneliness that you have to deal with in prison because I had never been to jail. I didn't know how to survive in there. So Good Girl Gone Bad was something I wrote when I was asked to write a letter of forgiveness. You know, how do you show forgiveness? How do you ask for forgiveness? And I remember saying to the chaplaincy,

like, I want to forgive myself first because I was so angry with myself. I wasn't angry with the justice system at first or anybody else. I was just angry at myself. So Good Girl Gone Bad for me was telling myself, you know what, you was a good girl. And in a matter of seconds, you became somebody that everyone believes is bad. And how do you go back to that person?

So that was the first piece of writing I did and performed in the chapel while I was still in prison at that time. You're going to share a poem with us today. It's called The Women. Yes. But before you do that, what is it about what was the thought behind this it's um so i guess i have to talk about holloway you know i've been back to holloway now that it's closed down and you know i've reflected and met other women who were in holloway whether it was the same time as me or other times but on reflection more so looking

back at it these women are just like me you know know, at the time, I just thought, you know, oh, there must be criminals, you're all criminals. And I didn't feel like I was. But then as I look back, I see there were mothers, grandmothers, daughters, you know, children. And these were all women that learned how to survive with a fake smile. And that is the message kind of behind it, just understanding how we all kind of connected, but without even knowing it.

Can you read it for us? Yes, I can. Here we go. This is The Women. I look at these women, young, old, grandmothers, mothers, daughters, old, grandmothers, mothers, daughters, children. Black, white, Asian, educated, uneducated, labelled, numbered, tainted, tortured. They all look like me.

I see the same sad look in their eyes. Powerless. Less than those we left outside. Learning to live behind a fake smile is the first thing we teach each other. Thank you for reading that. Thank you. It's always always different i'm sure to to perform something right and perform it on live radio although i know you broadcast on prison radio and congratulations for uh i know you've been awarded for that as well by the the radio industry will some women do you think be listening in prison today i really i really really hope so and in in that i really hope that they can see just how the journey has gone from being an inmate to becoming a radio host, to becoming an author. You know, I never believed that that's something that could happen, especially when the stats are just always telling us we're going to go back to jail.

You know, more than likely in less than a year, a woman can end up back in jail. And that's because the support after prison is not there. There's a lack of like housing. They don't have a woman can end up back in jail. And that's because the support after prison is not there. There's a lack of housing. They don't have a house. They don't have benefits. I remember actually hearing women say that when they went into Holloway, they felt safe. And that really freaked me out because I never felt safe in Holloway. I never felt safe in prison.

But for them to say that at the time, I didn't understand it. But then when you understand that the reason they went back to prison was because they had no doctors they had no home so they couldn't register to a gp um they couldn't get anything that they needed they don't have address or bank account so they can't sign up to benefit so the easiest thing to do is end up back in jail and that for me was the craziest thing to hear you talk there in that poem about no one hears us or sees us yeah of course that makes you think about women in prison now yeah but the same can often be true when women and men yeah come out of prison yes and that's of course what you're talking about exactly what isn't there for you to try and rebuild and and take your life forward if

you can do you find that yourself do you feel that i know that lady unchained of course it's not your name it's what you work under but of course it refers to being free yeah and unchained in other ways too exactly how hard is it to move on and to have those conversations and be seen not as someone who went to prison to be honest it's taken me 13 years to get to this point to be seen for my creativity um and my art and my you know, hosting. It's taken 13 years and I don't think it should have taken that long to get to that point.

I think for me also it's the fact that there's so much judgment around having a conviction. So you pretty much shy away from telling people until you feel like somebody's actually going to listen. Outside, I guess for me, it took me ages to just find people that I guess didn't want to go back to jail. It was funny because I'd always be like, we didn't enjoy prison. And everyone would be like, no, you're lying. Everyone enjoys jail. Like, that's why you always go back. What people think that. Yeah. And I was like, I don't know

where these people are, but I didn't enjoy jail. So for me, finding other people, finding someone like National Prison Radio being able to talk to people in prison making them see that this is what I'm doing on the outside it is possible that's how I found my voice but then I also found a community of other people who have that lived experience that are doing amazing work whether it's in the theatre whether it's in broadcasting they are doing. It's just that we don't get promoted enough. What do you think about those who are listening to say, and of course each person's individual and why they go to prison is very specific to them at that moment,

but that, you know, prison is prison, and when you are in prison, there's a reason why you are there, and there's limited sympathy, limited insight, limited empathy. If someone, you know, in your case case goes to jail for GBH or whatever, that empathy isn't there for a reason. Yeah. What would you say? To be honest, I would say to them before I went to jail, I literally was very judgmental to anybody that committed a crime. I was like, well, you do a crime, you do the time. You were like that. That's exactly how I was. I need people to understand that I was very judgmental towards people I had a conviction

but then again I had never been in trouble I'd never you know done anything that was big enough to be arrested cautioned or sent to prison so I think people need to understand that we are all really one step away from a prison sentence and if you look at the stats also women in prison is about 26 percent of them that are in there for like petty crimes or theft. And then you've got half of them that are in there because they love the wrong person and ended up in a situation because of their partner. You know, so I think... There has been a lot of campaigning about specifically women in prison and how unique the large number of those issues are that you're talking about. Exactly. So when we look at that, you know,

can you not look at it in the mirror and think, well, actually, maybe I could love the wrong person. Maybe I might lose my job tomorrow and I might not have an income. How do I feed my children? You know, and I think that people will say, well, actually, they did the crime that they should have done better. Well, it's hard to do that when you have no support. It's hard to do that when you don't even know about places like women's centres, which I that about a women's centre like maybe 10 years after being released and that's somewhere where women could be sent instead of being sent to jail it's an alternative and they can go there and get help with you know housing probation you know child care all of those things do you think lady unchanged you could have got to a less judgmental place without going to prison though honestly I don't know like right now

because of the stats and because I've been there I'm more interested in what goes on in that system but because before I didn't know prison I'd walk past a prison and I'll kid you not Emma I probably didn't even tell you that I knew that was a prison it's only now because I've been through it I've experienced it and seen so many things it's hard for me to not go well actually there's something else going on here well of course as you say some will be listening from prison this morning they'll be listening to you they follow your work if more people want to read your work behind bars on punishment prison and release is the name of your first poetry book lady unchained thank you very much for coming on woman thank you so much for having me and thank you to you for your company

back tomorrow at 10 that's all for today's woman's hour thank you so much for having me. And thank you to you for your company. Back tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hi, I'm Andy Oliver, and I'd like to tell you all about my Radio 4 series, One Dish. It's all about why you love that one dish, the one that you could eat over and over again without ever getting tired of it. Each week, a very special guest will bring their favourite food to my table and we'll be unpacking the history of it. And food psychologist Kimberley Wilson is on hand to talk us through the science bit. What food reminds you of your child? What's your favourite place to go for dinner?

What do you have for Sunday lunch? What's your favourite dessert? Do you say plantain or plantain? What food would you take with you to a desert island? What's your favourite place to go for dinner? What do you have for Sunday lunch? What's your favourite dessert? Do you say plantain or plantain? What food would you take with you to a desert island? What's your favourite type of chilli oil? What do you have for breakfast? What's the best pasta shake? What's the one thing you'd...

So if you're the sort of person who's already planning what you're having for lunch while you're eating breakfast, then this podcast is going to be right up your street. That's One Dish with me, Andy Oliver. Listen now on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in.

Available now.