Woman's Hour - Polar Preet, 'Swell' poetry, Ballet body-shaming

Episode Date: January 30, 2025

The Royal Ballet School (RBS) has reached a financial settlement with former student Ellen Elphick who said the body-shaming she experienced while at the elite institution has left her with lifelong psychological damage. The London-based school accepts no liability for the former dancer’s case and has not issued an apology. Ellen talks to Anita Rani about the experience along with her lawyer, Dino Nocivelli.Female-dominated films are more likely to get more sexist criticism in reviews- that's according to a study of more than 17,000 reviews. Another study looked at how women in finance are portrayed in films and how this impacts real women working in the sector. Anita talks to the film critic, Leila Latif, about women in film.Cardiff University has announced possible cuts to 400 full-time jobs amid a funding shortfall. One of the departments to be potentially impacted is nursing and, whilst the university has said that no "final decisions" have been made and there's "no immediate impact" to those currently studying, concerns have been raised about the future supply of those going into the profession. Anita talks to Helen Whyley, executive director of the Royal College of Nursing Wales.Preet Chandi, better known as Polar Preet, broke world records in 2023 when she made the longest solo and unsupported journey across Antarctica, crossing 922 miles in 70 days. Now Preet is setting her sights on the North Pole, hoping to cross 500 miles of sea ice to reach it in under 70 days. She joins Anita to discuss why she’s making the change to the North Pole, how she plans to get there and how she plans on dealing with polar bears.Poet Maria Ferguson has a new collection out. It’s called Swell, and it explores the highs and lows of conception, pregnancy and motherhood, including looking at miscarriage. Maria joins Anita to talk about her compositions and why she wanted to write about becoming a mother.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Rebecca Myatt

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to Woman's Hour. Maria Ferguson has charted her journey to motherhood through poetry and she'll be here to tell me all about her new book called Swell and she'll be performing live. Cardiff University is proposing to cut 400 academic jobs and subjects, including nursing, are at risk of disappearing.

We'll look at what this could mean. And Preet Chandi, or Polar Preet, the incredible explorer, decided in 2022 to do a solo journey to the South Pole. Since then, she's done two more solo expeditions and broken a few world records while she was at it. And now she's doing it again, this time with a much harder expedition in her sights to become the first woman to travel solo to the North Pole. It's only ever been done twice before, and it's not been done for 20 years. It's a very treacherous journey.

She'll be here to tell me all about it. And this morning, I would like to hear from you about when you've done something that people thought you were slightly mad for undertaking. Have you gone on your own adventure, done things your own way, taken up a hobby in later life, made a big change to your life, took an unbelievably brave decision. What was it and

was it worth it? And did it change the course of your life? Get in touch with the programme in the usual way. The text number is 84844. You can email me by going to our website or you can WhatsApp the programme on 03700 100 444. And if you'd like to follow us on social media, it's at BBC Woman's Hour. That text number once again, 84844. But first, on to ballet. It's one of the toughest and most technical forms of dance, notoriously demanding on the dancer's body whilst being deceptively beautiful to the audience's eye. Ballet school training involves a gruelling programme akin to that of a professional athlete and there can be a psychological impact. Today it's been announced that the Royal Ballet School, one of the top institutions for training, has reached a financial

settlement with a former student, Ellen Elphick, who said she experienced body shaming while at the elite institution and this, she said, left her with lifelong psychological damage. The London-based school accepts no liability for the former dancer's case and has not issued an apology. Well, Ellen Elphick and her lawyer, Dino Nocivelli, join me this morning. Very good morning to both of you. Ellen, I'm going to come to you first. I think we should start at the beginning.

You are obviously someone with a gift for ballet from a very young age and it's a lot of young girls' dreams, isn't it, to become a ballet dancer? Was it always one of yours? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think I went to see my first ballet when I was about six and was absolutely transfixed just watching these dancers move around the stage. It was incredible and I just thought, I want that to be me. So yeah, worked extremely hard, got into the Royal Ballet School when I was 16 and you know, you just kind of, you follow this kind of conveyor belt of the path that is destined for you, I guess. And it was really exciting.

Getting into Royal was my absolute dream I think I said from the age of maybe 12 or 13 that that was where I was going to go and nobody was going to stand in my way no one was going to stop me that was that was it for me and then obviously when I got in it was really exciting very scary I was very very nervous um you know but it was an exciting time it's well it's an incredible achievement isn't it to be accepted into the Royal Ballet School you were only 16 I know you said you worked incredibly hard to get there and this was in 2009 very difficult to get in um and what happened whilst you were there so when I was there it kind of pretty much started within the first few weeks um you know

the teacher started to make comments about the way that I looked um really negative things you know um like I mentioned previously in the article and things that have been said is that a teacher wanted to cut me in half and she you know went down my whole leg cutting off my muscles um just basically saying you know if I had a knife this is what I would cut off um and with ballet you're you're constantly looking at yourself in the mirror anyway you know where you're trained you do class we stand in the middle of the room facing a full wall of mirrors and you're looking at are my shoulders too high is my leg placed correctly and then on top of that I then had teachers going you're not the right shape you need to lose this off your off your bottom which I was consistently told throughout the three years

there was was my issue so it becomes really hard so what was very exciting for me really quickly became really difficult, really, really hard, really tough. And how did you deal with it at the time? So at the time, I, well, I mean, my teachers were telling me I needed to lose weight. And it's almost like I went into panic mode. So I started, I did start to bring up what I was eating I wasn't really eating throughout the day I smoked a lot as well so I started to develop some really really unhealthy habits that have then kind of stayed with me way up to my late 20s. I'm wondering what the conversations are like between you and the other students did

you talk to one another was everybody going through the same thing just give us a sense of the environment that you were in. So I mean the environment is so toxic but it's taken me to step away from ballet and actually do a completely different career to reflect on it and realize but we all used to we used to make light of it when we were at school we would deep down inside it would hurt and I would sit on my own at bedtime in our boarding house and be really quite distressed by what was being said to me but I'm not the only one I would see teachers doing it to my peers and we would all just stand there and accept it. It was just a part of being in that environment and being in that training is what the teachers are saying to you. And the teachers have this almost kind of godlike

way about them because my teachers that taught me there had had incredible careers they'd all got to the stage that I wanted to get to and I think that when they're then saying to you you're too big they've done it they've been there they've had the career that I dream of so you really listen to what they're saying you really take it on board we were told we had to be sponges just absorb absolutely everything that they're saying to you good or bad um so you know all of us we just we just accepted it it was that is that's the training that's how our teachers were taught therefore that's how we'll be taught and you went on to become a professional ballet dancer um yes yeah and then how widespread because then when you become a professional ballet dancer you're dancing with professional dancers from around the world was was their experience

the same was it was it the same sort of environment once you were dancing professionally as it was in the school um no professionally was actually slightly better um when i was a professional i didn't actually have anything negative said to me about the way that I looked. You know, being a professional, you're an adult, you've kind of done all the difficult training you've got to a particular level. So you're seen, I think, as a bit more of an equal. Plus, by the time you're at that point, your eating habits are completely destroyed. So, you yeah so you know you know how to look and being a professional you've got to fit the costumes you know companies

aren't particularly well funded they don't have the money to make a different costume per dancer you've all got to fit in the same one so that there is that pressure as a professional but I mean I danced with people who trained in America, people who trained in Russia. Obviously, the majority were European and UK based. And it is the same story over and over again. Different person, sometimes the same institution, sometimes a different one. But it is a culture wide issue. It's not something that's isolated to me.

And what was the lasting impact of it on you I think the last the lasting impact is that I I've got a very negative relationship with food with my body um it's something that's just been ingrained into how I feel I think it will be with me for the rest of my life you know I'm always going to look in the mirror and look at the bits that I don't like it's just that is I think that's something that I I have to accept I've had to do a lot of healing since I've stopped as well but um yeah it it takes its toll because I was really really vulnerable when I went to the Royal Ballet School I was 16 I was a child and the things that were said to me I shouldn't have been subjected to and nor should my peers and nor should people who are

10 years younger than me so yeah. What was the catalyst Ellen for you wanting to pursue legal action? So I retired from this stage because I actually got injured. I went into teaching and I was finding that students were coming to me from various institutions and telling me what was being said to them by previous teachers. Things like what? What was being said to them things about yeah just things about body shaming you know even it's I think what teachers don't realize is that it's just it's the tiniest little comment can send somebody on path of distraction so things like oh my teacher told me that I was as heavy as a baby elephant when I was landing a jump just really simple things like that that are sticking with you know these are people who are carrying it with them so I started to realize that this is such a huge issue for ballet that unless we start talking

and we start seeing that women are being you know praised about their bodies it's good to be womanly good to be feminine you know we don't want bodies. It's good to be womanly, good to be feminine. You know, we don't want to see these tiny unhealthy dancers anymore. We want to see people who are looking after their bodies, people who've been nurtured at school, who are happy and healthy. That's what's important. And the more that I chatted to my own students when I was teaching and my own peers, I really began to realize that something needs to be done and

made the decision I then reached out to Dino and kind of started started that whole journey um and Dino you acted for Ellen that's right um and you've had news today well the settlement has been reached were you expecting this to happen? We're very grateful it happened. It hasn't been an easy process and obviously Ellen has had to go through a lot to get the assessment. It's hopefully the first step in Royal Ballet School and other ballet schools now changing,

acknowledging where things have happened and changing. It can no longer live in the past. The abuse which Ellen suffered was from 2009 onwards. We've heard from lots of other girls and women who suffered abuse in the 2010s, 2020s. This is a current issue which is still happening. And how many ballet dancers are you representing? Do you think more will come forward? So we've spoken to over 100 women so far.

It's been really difficult for them to broach this subject. It's been extremely triggering as well. It's something which they have to live with on a daily basis. So we still act for a number of women who are making allegations against Royal Ballet School and other schools and we're hoping in the next couple of months we'll again reach settlements with those.

Obviously you can't reveal any names but you can tell us about some of the experiences that you come across because you're talking to dancers day in day out and actually you you specialize in uh in abuse cases so how does this particular form of abuse manifest in the dancers yeah that's right so i do specialize in representing abuse survivors predominantly child abuse survivors and sexual abuse survivors and i think that when you speak to these ballet dancers and you hear the impact on their lives it is so triggering.

And often for abuse survivors, that may be someone who looks like their abuser, a sound, a smell, a church, for example. In this case, it's themselves. And that has been extremely shocking, even to myself and my team. These ballet dancers wake up and they're triggered by their bodies. They look in the mirror, they're triggered. They go past the screen, they go into a restaurant, there's calories on a menu. They may engage with relations with men, women, in the workplace, what clothes to wear. Lots of them have chosen not to get married because they cannot face walking down an aisle.

Lots of them have chosen not to have children because they cannot face their body changing. And those who have had children have been extremely affected by this not just during the pregnancy but also afterwards trying to go back to the gym after a day or two after giving birth it is so traumatizing and it is a lifelong issue for them sadly ellen you're nodding yeah no absolutely i mean i've just had a baby so um i found pregnancy to be it brought up a lot of issues that i'd thought i'd put to bed um but you know came came back up again because i just had to watch my body just become much much bigger than i wanted it to. The Royal Ballet, Dino, accepts no liability and has not issued an apology. And it is an issue that's widespread within the ballet world, isn't it?

It is. I think that the saying that, you know, saying sorry doesn't cost anything is 100% correct. Remember, they've settled a case. Ellen has received a financial settlement and yet they still cannot apologize and that's a huge issue for him because to create change you have to accept you know you failed and that there's harm being caused well and ellen what do you want to see happen because like you said yourself you know your teachers have experienced this and their teachers probably went through the same thing it's it's a to some

degree it's the culture within the world so what do you want to see happen yes i think the first thing is that the fact that we've come to a settlement means that there is in my in my mind how i'm taking it that there's some acceptance that what happened happened um but the the fact that they couldn't apologize it just tells me that there's so much more that we need to do that you know this is culture-wide it goes across most dance schools you know speak to anybody who's been in a studio and learned to do ballet they will either have had some sort of body shaving or will know somebody that has you know it's it's just so widespread so for me I want there to be much much better teacher training um support for the mental health and well-being for students in

school because you know there wasn't really um an understanding of mental health when I was training it was it wasn't spoken about um and you know that that is also with the time I think people are beginning to talk a lot more now that you know realizing that ballet is very traditional we love the tradition of ballet you know the way that the nutcracker comes around every year is a beautiful and wonderful thing about ballet the fact that audiences just still want to go see it but we've got to come into the modern world now and train dancers in a really really nurturing way and rather than using just archaic methods that are creating beautiful dancers but they're not acknowledging or or supporting what happens afterwards and and the well-being of actually the person on the inside and not just this beautiful dancer that we

see on stage so teachers need support I think there needs to be some kind of investigation something needs to happen that's that's why I've come forward you know i've spoken out because it's i'm really passionate about them needing to be changed because it affects so so many so so many people well ellen elfick thank you so much for speaking to us this morning and uh dino not you really thank you so much dino and if you've been affected by anything you've heard there are links to advice on the BBC Action Line website. And we have a statement from the Royal Ballet School who said, we're pleased that both parties were able to reach a mutually acceptable agreement in this way

and we wish Ellen and her family well for the future. The Royal Ballet School continues to take the welfare of its students very seriously. Now, we're going to be looking at women on film. Renée Zellweger graces the cover of most of the papers today in a hot pink dress, having attended the premiere for the latest Bridget Jones film, Mad About the Boy. It's also peak Oscars season,

and talk of who might take home the top gongs is everywhere. Well, two stories that have caught our eye this week is the news out today that female-dominated films are more likely to get more sexist criticism in reviews. That's according to a study of more than 17,000 reviews. Another study looked at how women in finance are portrayed in films and how this impacts real women working in the sector. Well, to talk us through this, lots to get through, is film critic of our own Leila Latif. Leila, welcome to the programme. Let's start with Renée Zellweger, shall we? The latest Bridget Jones film. It premiered last night.

Have you seen it? How is it? What's it like? Yeah, I'm going next week. I'm very excited. I have been a big fan of these films. I do find it slightly disheartening that, you know, all these years later, Bridget is still trying to bag herself a man. The freshly widowed Bridget Jones. But, you know, open mind. I mean, hopefully it will surprise me and be a bit more subversive

than it appears on, you know, on the surface. And let's talk about just kind of the promotion around this film. I'm thinking about Barbie as well. How much is gender used to promote films? Are there such things as men's films, women's films, and particularly the marketing and the advertising of them well yeah there definitely is i think it's almost more that there's kind of films for everyone so like there's an idea that say with like gladiator 2

or an oppenheimer if it's like anybody can go to this film it's a big cinematic event you just have to love the movies and then you have with a man and the girls movies yeah so so that anyone films are the ones where you've got big male leads but the girls movies are the one with the female leads yeah and then that you know you know people watch so much more on streaming nowadays I think you know on average people watch about seven films a month on you know streaming and then they go to the cinema about twice a month so like one of the ways that I think they try to incentivize people is this idea of like the big girls night out we're all going to go and wear our pink and go and see Barbie and those sorts of things and like often that means leads to quite kind of patronizing marketing patronizing marketing but a good night

out especially if you're doing a galentine's to watch Bridget Jones anyway well let's talk about some of these studies as I mentioned uh out this week one from King's Business School it looked at how women in finance are portrayed in film. They found that women were commonly addressed as honey or sweetheart and subject to derogatory comments about their appearance or lack of financial know-how, and that this has potentially disastrous impacts on society. Tell us more about it. What did they find? I mean, a lot of it was just that they're complete absence. But then also when they are in the films, they're sort of, you know, a lot of them, a lot of the time they're, you know, playing strippers or, you know know the kind of cheated what the wife who's being

cheated upon or you know and if they are in the workplace they're being you know not treated very well even in ones where they are taking like more significant roles like the film that came out a couple of years ago called fair play um the way that she's able to kind of do well within this man's world is like to become just as bad as the rest of them and you know be going to them to the nightclub and be saying kind of derogatory things about women as well so like even when there is representation sometimes it is a little bit um it's not exactly going to incentivize a lot of people to enter that workforce does it matter i mean their films what does it do they have a real world impact i do think it matters

i think a lot of people you know they their dreams are formed by seeing what they see in films. Like, you know, the number of people that wanted to be scientists because they saw, you know, Laura Dern in Jurassic Park or they wanted to become doctors because they saw Meredith Grey in Grey's Anatomy. You know, like I think a lot of the time when we are young, our kind of visions for what we can be and our potential is formed by those kind of early watching experiences. Another study that I mentioned looks at reviews. Your job finds that reviews of films with female-dominated casts were found to feature significantly higher levels of sexism

than those of films featuring mostly men. Are you surprised by this? Not at all. What do you put it down to? What's going on? I think a lot of the time it's just that there's a there's a lack of curiosity when it comes to um men looking at kind of female dominated uh narratives i think there was a film that came out last year with jesse buckley and olivia coleman and i read a lot of them uh male written reviews and they did to really not

really understand the dynamic between these two female leads. And as a result, the reviews were a bit poorer than I think the film deserved. But, you know, I think that's why we need more diversity within film criticism. And then we're going to have much more interesting perspectives and, you know, not just viewing everything through a male lens. Yeah. And the study distinguished between benevolent sexism and hostile sexism. What did they mean by this? Well, benevolent sexism is sort of where you're not actually saying something incredibly aggressive about them. So you're kind of maybe just more being patronising or kind of putting it down to their femininity,

whilst hostile sexism is more just like, this woman is awful and I hate women like this and like this character i mean which there's a lot more of than you would than you would think um i always think about um ghostbusters when i think about women and reviews and stuff and i think about the female cast of ghostbusters and how leslie jones's character got it worse than anybody because she was the one black woman in that film so she suffered not only misogyny but racism as well and just how damaging that can be on a much wider scale so what is actually going down here what is happening is it a symptom of society at large

or is it just something specific to the film world it is a symptom i think of society at large and then and it's also just a symptom and then also the shame the thing that's a shame that happens afterwards is then when films like that do underperform or don't get the reviews that seem as being like symptomatic of like films that are centered with women female characters are a bad idea and you know that's that you know it's sort of the femininity of that is like put to blame for it whilst you know there was a recent ghostbusters film i think it's called frozen kingdom something that of that is like put to blame for it. Whilst, you know, there was a recent Ghostbusters film, I think it was called Frozen Kingdom or something that was awful and got terrible reviews, but nobody's saying just like, Oh, that just shows that we shouldn't have bothered having male Ghostbusters.

Yeah. We should look at the Oscars whilst I've got you on. Cause the nominations list is often seen as a health check on how women are performing. It came out last week. The ceremony is in March. What's your take on it um i think it's it's interesting because you know emilia perez has kind of gotten so much uh so many nominations and you know that's a film about a trans experience um but then you know made by a male director and then some people from that community have like found it offensive for

different reasons um so it'd be interesting to see whether it does as well as people think it would, as the number of nominated nations suggest it will. But I'm kind of rooting for Wicked, I must say. I think it's just a great, spectacular time at the movies. And I think it would be really fun for something like that to win, rather than very dour, ponderous film like Conclave or The Brutalists. Yes, okay, I like it. Okay, let's get behind wickets.

Also, whilst I've got you on and you are a film nerd, we had Marianne Jean-Baptiste on talking about hard truths last week. Can I just share with you how I'm disappointed in her lack of nomination? What's happened? How has she just been admitted?

Absolutely ridiculous. In some ways, I found myself less invested in the Oscars. I was just like, well, the best performance is not going to win this year in any gender. She just absolutely stole the show. I think the film stands alone, but the Oscars getting it wrong is not new. Leila Latif, pleasure speaking to you uh leila latif uh

pleasure speaking to you thank you for that um 84844 is the number to text lots of you getting in touch about a variety of different things and we're going to be talking to uh preach handy about her incredible new expedition to the north pole so i'm asking you whether you when you've ever done anything uh incredibly brave um age 66 to, I backpacked four different mountain routes including the Drystone Way in Mallorca, the walk to freedom in the Pyrenees

from France to Spain, the High Balkan Trail from Kosovo to Albania and Montenegro and the Horses of the Wind Trail. These all sound amazing in the Catalan Pyrenees. Climbing to 2,700 metres,

we stayed in shepherd's huts for two trails. I had a guide but two I did with a friend the same age. The memories are amazing. Oh, that's very inspiring. Keep your thoughts coming in on that. Now to Cardiff, where the university has announced possible cuts to 400 full-time jobs amid a funding shortfall. One of the departments to be impacted is nursing. And whilst the university has said that no final decisions have been made

and there's no immediate impact to those currently studying concerns, have been raised about the future supply of those going into the profession. To put this into some context, it's thought that hospitals in Wales are currently short of just under 2,000 nurses. Nationally in the UK,

there's a total of around 40,000 vacant nursing posts while Helen Wiley is the executive director of the Royal College of Nursing Wales and joins me now morning Helen what are your thoughts on this announcement? Oh good morning I think it's really shocking and very worrying that a particular school like Cardiff can announce a proposal to close its nursing school. I think it's an alarm call for the rest of the UK as well. In Wales, the courses are funded through an arm's length body by the government. So the universities are aware of the amount of money that's coming their way. So if this happens in a university where that funding supply is consistent, then the impact for the rest of the UK needs to be really seriously

considered where students are funded through student loans, etc. And for us in Wales, you know, for our country, it's really worrying that the offer of a prestigious university, the only Russell Group that we have in Wales, is potentially at risk, both in terms of the university's civil duties to contribute to our society, but also in terms of nursing as a profession. And I know that many nurses who have graduated from Cardiff or practice in Wales are really concerned about this announcement. Why do you think nursing has been included as one of the subjects at risk of being cut? Well, the universities say it's about sustainability. They say it's also because they've lost international students from elsewhere in the university where money might get moved around to support courses.

But we have a number of universities in Wales providing nursing education through this funded commission system. And none of them are struggling with the sustainability of their departments. So, you know, all I can tell you is that that's the issue that Cardiff are saying. But I think, you know, again, the issue for patients is an important one. Our profession is safety critical. Nurses are fundamental to the health and success of a society. So putting funding issues in higher education as part of a risk to that profession is a fundamental question for policymakers and for us as a society.

Yeah, well, they're run as businesses, aren't they? And UCAS applications for nursing have fallen by a third, for the third year running. Can you really blame universities for potentially cutting if there's no students applying for the course? And shouldn't we be looking at more why people aren't entering the profession in the first place? We absolutely should be looking at more why people aren't entering the profession in the first place? We absolutely should be looking at why people are not entering the profession in the first place.

In Wales, our decline is not as high as it's been in England. There has been a slight decline, but we're one of the parts of the UK that's very attractive for students to come and learn about nursing. But across our society, you know, the value that we place on the work that women do, and nursing is predominantly women's work, it is not high. And our young people and our older people will study for three years to get a degree,

and their starting salary will be less than 27,000. And they're very likely to stay on the same band if they work in the NHS for the rest of their career. So there's a number of things that governments who make policy and employers who employ nurses need to do to make this a really attractive career. Nurses do amazing things and they are phenomenal in the contribution that they make. Patients will say it was the nursing care that made the difference or it was the kindness or compassion that I experienced but we don't seem to want to value that so we can pay them more and we can certainly improve their terms and conditions. You'll know that we've spoken widely about corridor care in the last few months

and many people will have read our damning reports about care we talked about on the program yeah that's right and if people are experiencing that when they go to work it's no surprise that they decide that that's not the nursing that they wanted to do it's not the standards that they want and um and that they leave they leave nursing and of course what that means is that the NHS struggles to transform you know nurses help the NHS change the way it does things they often take on new roles where there's a need for patients um care to be delivered in a different way and if you cut that workforce down really what you're doing is undermining the ability to fulfill government's plans and also the safety of the people that are using those services so whilst this might look like one little issue happening

in Cardiff its impact its ripple is right across the whole of the UK and is fundamental into how we support, train, educate and develop nurses from the very beginning right through to their retirement. Okay, Helen, thank you very much for speaking to me. Helen Wiley there, the Executive Director of the Royal College of Nursing Wales. And we have a statement from a spokesperson from Cardiff University saying, it's important to stress that these are proposals and there is still a great deal of detail to work through before any final decisions are made.

We're committed to delivering nursing degree programmes to the students starting in 2025. We are acutely aware of our role in delivering the next generation of healthcare professionals for Wales and beyond and are actively consulting with all stakeholders on our proposals. For the avoidance of doubt, we will continue to offer midwifery at Cardiff. And a spokesperson for the Welsh Government said, we understand the serious concern Cardiff University's announcement will cause for

people affected. Universities are independent institutions, but we're very disappointed that nursing courses form part of these proposals, and we're working urgently with Health Education and Improvement Wales to ensure we train the same number of nurses in Wales. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in.

Available now. 84844 is the text number. Someone's been in touch about ballet saying, I went to ballet lessons in my teams, not aiming for a dance career. I just loved ballet, but I was bullied out of it by a bunch of girls making fun of my larger than traditional ballerina size body. I know one of those people went on to be a professional dancer and a dance teacher these attitudes need rooting out early to stop them from being perpetuated thank you for your messages keep them coming in now to my next guest preet chandhi mbe better known as Polar Preet, has achieved four world records, including when she made the longest solo and unsupported journey across Antarctica in 2023. And she's

at it again, this time, though, trading the freezing cold and slippery terrain of Antarctica for the just as cold and even slipperier terrain of the Arctic Circle. She'll walk over sea ice, swim through cold waters and may even have to battle a polar bear or two in an attempt to make it to the North Pole. Only two people have done this in history and Preet joins me now to tell us why she wants to be the third and the first woman. Welcome Preet. Thank you so much it's great to actually be in the studio. It's wonderful to have you and to have given you a hug this morning as well because we've spoken before we are we have been following you from the beginning of all these expeditions that you have decided to take on we've got so much to talk to

you about but first of all tell us about this new one the north pole how how how long will you be going for tell us about the the terrain and and all of it how epic is this going to be it's funny when i started you know going to the south pole's funny, when I started, you know, going to the South Pole, I thought, oh, it'd be cool to, you know, go to the North Pole too, knowing absolutely nothing about it. But, you know, don't let that stop you.

I started to learn. So in Antarctica, when I've done my expeditions, I'm travelling on land. So, you know, I put the tent up, I wake up in the same position in the morning. I'm travelling in 24 hours of daylight in the Antarctic summer. And then you flip to the Arctic, the other side of the world, I'll be travelling on sea ice,

which means I could put my tent up one evening and then wake up in a slightly different position in the morning because it's floating. And I will start with some hours of darkness, it will then become 24 hours of daylight. It is also wet in the Arctic. So Antarctica is dry, cold and windy. In the Arctic, it can get wet and that moisture management is really important. And one of the first things I learned when I started this journey was Arctic comes from the Greek word arctus, which means bear. So Antarctica, the word itself means no bears. This is good facts. Yeah.

It sounds freezing. Yes, I think it's going to be a level of cold that I haven't experienced. Okay, why? For me, it's always been about pushing boundaries. Like this is a world, a community I knew nothing about at all in 2019. I started on Google, how do you get to Antarctica? And I think it's really important to look back. So I'm like, wow, I've actually managed to get here. And, you know, yes, it's adventure for me, but it can be anything. And saying to people, go and try, go and do anything.

Like my comfort zone has gotten bigger. And I'm not saying this isn't it. This is, you know, and it is scary and it's hard, but that's, you know, it is hard to push our boundaries. It is hard to step out, but that growth and the reward you can get from it is just incredible. But polar bears. Yes. How are you going to deal with, but that growth and the reward you can get from it is just incredible.

But polar bears. Yes. How are you going to deal with, no polar bears in the Antarctic. This is a serious concern. So how are you going to deal with one if you come across one? So I think it's really important to be vigilant. So at the end of the day, I'm in their terrain. I will have a fence that I'll have around my tent. And also I will be carrying things with me.

So I'll have carrying things with me so I have a weapon with me and so you know if something does get close to me to fire non-lethal shots and I think it's just trying to keep them away from me is the idea but it is you know it is a dangerous terrain to be in and I think it's just really important to remember that and making sure that you've got you know the right preparation to go in there there and you do have the right preparation in terms of firearms because you're in the army yes i was yeah for 16 years i left in october because uh because i wanted to do more outdoor adventures and i i loved being in i think i got a lot from it but i was taking unpaid leave to do expeditions and it's just really hard to do both um so are you when are you planning on

doing this yes I'm planning to leave in a couple of weeks and it all depends on funding of course but and you know it's so easy people I get told to stop and to give up or wait a few years all the time but I think the reason I've managed to do so much is because I'm persistent yeah and it's not because I'm the best it really isn't you don't need to be the best to succeed I think it's my persistence so I will try till the very last minute and if I do not get enough funding in time I've got another year to train and what about all the equipment that you're going to need have you got it all or again is it all done as you're all ready yeah yeah so I've got the equipment my sled is on its way to Antarctica my dry suit will be coming in the next week because the sections where I have to swim as well there there's over water. Yeah, no, I read about this. I was reading about how dangerous this is

going to be because you're on ice. So it's very slippery. Just to walk on it is dangerous. Then pitching your tent. Yes. You might crack the ice. So I think that is really important for experience to see where's good ice to pitch your tent. So, you know, how many years has that ice been in there and checking with your pole, the colour of the ice as well. So, because at the start of the trip, I'll actually be going over what I can only describe as like a maze, but like a really rough maze that you have to like climb over these blocks of ice. So finding like suitable places to camp, I think, will probably be quite hard at the beginning. And then when you don't have those anymore, that's when you start to get sections of open water.

So it's, yeah, it's really important to find good places. Totally unsupported, carrying everything yourself. What happens if you get into trouble? Yes. So that's where the money comes in. So the reason it's so expensive is because trying to get search and rescue in this area is really, really difficult. And why I wouldn't be able to go unless I've got the amount of money that I need, which is a lot. Do you have an emergency way of communicating? Yes, yes. So I carry a satellite phone on all of my expeditions. I have in-reach, I have GPS, but you're on sea ice. This isn't, you know, in Antarctica and, you know, I'm talking about the summer seasons

when I've been to Antarctica and working with the logistics company. I know that in, you know, one to three days, depending on weather, somebody can come and get me. And me and you know I can be in a relatively safe space and an area while I'm waiting whereas this is a little bit different. And you're kind of in good company because we've got a few cold water swimmers who listen to Woman's Hour but you have to get on get in a dry suit to swim as well. Yes yeah so. Just getting out of your clothes Preet. So keeping all my clothes on, putting the dry suit on top. And then the idea would be, so I'd have to see the other end, I think, before I decided to get in in the first place. Making sure that I can climb out of the other side as well is really important. And if that section looks too big for me to cross, I'll probably be going left or right to see if there's an easier section to cross.

And congratulations, because you got married in 2024. So we're wonderful. It's great news. We've been following your whole journey since you went on your first expedition. Where is your husband going to be? So he will be in Canada acting as my base camp. So he's the person that I'll check in with every day. So he's involved.

Yes, yeah, yeah. He's always involved, yeah. And this all going to plan, how long will this expedition take to trek to the North Pole? I'll be taking 70 days of food and fuel with me. 70 days. What's the percentage of chance of this? I think less than 5% that I'll actually make it to the North Pole. But that's the beauty of it. And it's not, you know, yes, amazing if I can make it. But even if I don't, and even if I was 100% sure I wouldn't make it, I would still try. Because I think there's beauty in that journey itself. And, you know, it is okay to fail. I encourage people to fail. I think there's so much you can learn from it. And it's not all about, you know, I have to, like, get the victory at the end at all. I think this journey will be really incredible to do. When you did your first initial trek to the south at South Pole across Antarctica, you had

podcasts and music and messages from your family and all of it to keep you motivated. You even named your skis after both your nephews. This time very different. Yes. I won't be listening to things because I have to remain vigilant. I will probably have the voice notes from my family and friends that you know I listen to inside the tent but not during the day. I just I wouldn't want to take that risk. So how I mean you're going to be on your own in this incredibly bleak landscape with all the worries and fear of what could potentially happen. what on earth is going on in your mind to keep you steady i think there's a few so sometimes i think about the bigger picture

and i remind myself that this is just so much bigger than than me as a person you know i'm a punjabi girl from derby yes you are yes darby dos get in there um and it's just so much more important than i am for somebody from, you know, who didn't know anything about this at all to go and do something. And it's bigger than adventure for me. And then the other side of it is when I'm finding things hard, I don't think about anything big picture. And I just literally, I will sometimes count.

I'll put my left foot in front of me, my right foot in front of me, and that's it. And, you know, I really hope people can relate to that just in any sense at all. You know, at home, if you're finding things difficult, you're getting out of bed, you're then brushing your teeth, you know, going down the stairs or whatever it is you're doing. And that's all I do. Just one step at a time. That's it. Good life advice. So much good life advice. I think we need to understand that actually you're not the average you say you know i just woke up and decided to go at 2090 did my research into antarctic you've got some kind of chip i think pre you know that extra chip you've had it since you're a kid

because you were training to be a tennis player when you were very young yes yeah and and then you ran ultra marathons so you've you've tell me about this drive and determination that you've had. If you can explain it to the rest of us mere mortals. I think it started from a little bit of frustration of people telling me I couldn't do stuff. I started funny, like playing tennis. So I started when I was 10 and we were the first me and my brothers, the first people in the entire family, both sides to start playing sport. So it was a big deal. I was like, why are they doing that?

And even if I think back some of those tennis matches, I think I won some of them, not because I was a better player, because I didn't give up. Yeah. You know, it wasn't, and I think, you know, I look back now, I think I learned that early on, just keep going, just try and get the next ball

and the next one. And people would then get frustrated and then I'd win the next few points, like, you know, quickly. And, and then I remember being told I couldn't do a lot of stuff. I remember being told, I wasn't smart enough to get into university. And I got in and I was like, wow, if I can do that, what else can I do? And you paid for yourself to get there? Yes. Yeah. And it was it was hard, you know, like the first expedition I did, I came back in a load of debt, like it is so hard to do these things. And it it's risk and you don't always know that you know that's going to pay off um but yeah every time I did one of these challenges it was you know I it was rough at the time I can't say I always enjoy it at the time

but afterwards I'm like wow you know what else can I do and I'm still amazed at what I'm capable of and that's really incredible I mean genuinely I think there's nothing you can't do yeah I mean I've got full faith in you pre for everything everything in life um there's something about you and I know this is there's a tenacity and a determination and that kind of feminine energy in in all of us but there's something about you that I'm particularly proud of because you are a Punjabi woman and I think there is the tenacity and a determination of that uh South Asian woman in Britain that you have and it's sort of that you know it means a lot yeah it does like I feel like I'm bringing people with me do you know what I mean like on this journey I feel like there are people with me and they are behind me you know they're not physically there but they are there they are pushing know, they're not physically there, but they are there. They are pushing me forward. They're helping me in my moments of need when I'm finding it challenging.

And that is my why. That is why I'm, you know, trying as hard as I can to get to the start line. Yes. Goodness me. And you must come talk to us as soon as it's happened. And now your world has completely changed. You know, you're Kate Middleton and Prince William and written a children's book. Do you feel that you need to just keep going now? It's funny, isn't it? I think we normalise where

we are. And I like sometimes I forget to look back, you know, you forget where you started and how far you've, you've come on. And there's so much more I want to do. And I'm just trying to find the balance of I don't want to feel the need or I have to do something to be content. You know, I also need to take the time and actually be proud of where I am but I'm excited to move like now I'm like okay you know I've left the army so I'd love to write an adult's book I'd love to do more on tv so I'm excited to see you know yeah where this all takes me wonderful so are we you are an inspiration and best of luck thank you keep going and I hope you're nice and warm as well. Polarpreet Chandi, thank you so much. 84844 is the number to text.

And lots of you getting in touch about your own expeditions. I love Polarpreet, says someone. Great to hear about her new adventure. And Lydia in Falmouth says, something a bit mad that I did was to join a men's rugby team training about six years ago. There were no women's team in my town, so a friend brought me along to a local men's team.

It was the best thing I ever did. It's led to me meeting my partner as well as making incredible friends and joining a community. I've since started a women's team in my town so a friend brought me along to the local men's team it was the best thing i ever did it's led to me meeting my partner as well as making incredible friends and joining a community i've since started a women's team yes good for you at the club fully supported by everyone there now on to my next guest uh so the journey of motherhood explored in a slightly different way by the poet maria ferguson new poetry collection, Swell, great name, Maria looks at the different stages of motherhood, including deciding whether or not you want to be a mother in the first place. She covers the joys of pregnancy and the devastation of baby loss in honest and raw form. Welcome to Woman's Hour, Maria. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. I want to go back a bit because you didn't start life as a poet. You started as an actor.

That's right. I trained as an actor and did a lot of performance poetry, spoken word, before moving on to explore how to put that on the page. And would you have ever thought, looking back then, that you would have had not one but two published poetry collections? Absolutely not. I think with poetry, we often think that it's an inaccessible or elitist art form. A lot of people think that poetry is not for them, probably because of how we studied it at school.

A lot of old dead white men, or in my case it was anyway um but the more I sort of read and experienced poetry I just fell in love with it as an art form and I think it doesn't have to be that contemporary poetry is just so amazing can be written by Essex girls too oh absolutely Essex girls living in Leeds. Absolutely. I particularly enjoyed Voyeurism, which was about you moving up north. Thank you. Yeah, I moved from London to Yorkshire during the pandemic. Congratulations. Thank you. I love it.

Tell us about Swell then. Collection all about motherhood. Why did you want to write it? I just wanted to add to the open and honest dialogue that's happening around motherhood at the moment, which I think is so important. There's an Adrienne Rich quote that says, when a woman tells the truth, she creates the possibility for more truth around her. And that's really what I wanted to do with this. I wanted to put my experience forward so that other women would feel safe enough to do with this. I wanted to put my experience forward so that other women would feel safe enough to do the same. And I think that's just really important to recognise that we don't have to be perfect mothers. We can't be perfect humans. So why should we be perfect mothers? It's really, this is why I love poetry, because in such few words, you can devastate and you can

make us laugh and cry and all of it. And these poems really do pack a punch. Four sections in the book. Tell us why you chose the titles for each section. I love the titles. For each section, yeah. So the collections, four sections. The first is called Woodchip. And that's all about sort of renting in London,

financial insecurity, watching people around you have children, think, do I want that? Could I do do that am I in a position mentally physically emotionally financially to do that I had wood chip up in my kitchen when I was renting in London and so that's what that's from and then the second section is called nesting and that's all about a move north, as we discussed, but also using the nature, the newfound nature of Yorkshire especially pregnancy after loss, which can be very difficult. It could be, you know, very anxiety inducing and birth as well. And then the last section, indigo, is all about sort of the first year ish of parenting and how you can be vulnerable yourself. Like you're like a new person in that time with a new person to look after.

So it's about sort of embracing that vulnerability and just sharing that honest experience. I can hear people going, oh, we want to hear more. Would you read something for us? Absolutely. Tell us what you're going to read. I think I'll read, this is from the last section, Indigo, and it is really exploring that vulnerability in the first few weeks especially of motherhood. It's called In Your First Weeks I Was a Baby Too.

One minute I was in a hospital bed and then a garden, a bath, a cafe. Nothing made sense. Everyone just babbled, faces an inch away from mine. I couldn't see past my outstretched arm. And even then, in black and white. I wet my nappies, sat in my stink. No one asked if I wanted to be touched or held. I was fed and clothed and shushed to sleep, bathed in gentle soaps, cried, didn't know or care if it was day or night, knew only I needed my mum. Oh Maria it's so beautiful and so uh

you just explain the loneliness and yeah and but the joy all of it um tell us about what we just heard. I mean motherhood's such a multi-facetedaceted thing. You can feel so many emotions at once. And especially in that early time, like I say, you're a vulnerable thing. You're a new mother. You expect so much of yourself. A lot of women feel guilty if they don't have that sort of rush of love but really you're just learning as you go with this new thing you know it's like with anything you learn by experience you gain confidence um but in that that first little while you can feel like a baby like a child yourself and you reach out for that nurturing in the same way that your baby needs you you need to be nurtured yourself and i remember you know I had actually said to my mum like no visitors the first couple of weeks yeah I need time to bond with my baby establish my feeding schedule you know all this stuff that I'd read about when really how

did that go down yeah not well you know you put all these expectations on yourself and think you know I need to do this alone we were never meant to do it alone but we've lost that village mentality but you know as soon as I even giving birth I was like where's my mum I need my mum I love how you write so beautifully um but also it's totally unsanitized yeah I think that's natural to me anyway I've always sort of written to process things navigate my place in the world and the world changing around me. And I do try to be as open and honest as possible about my experiences, but leave a door open for people to find their own experiences in there too. Do you ever find it hard to go back to moments and write about them?

Absolutely. You know know sometimes I write instantly but a lot of the time I feel like I need a bit of distance especially if it's a difficult subject like miscarriage or birth for example I couldn't bear to write about birth for a long time it was only actually after I'd written the whole collection we thought we haven't got a signifier in here for for the actual birth of the child and I realized that was because I needed that space I couldn't go straight into it it's such a raw and vulnerable exposing thing and also it's how much of that do I want to give away and how much of that do I want to keep for myself yeah keep private um and you perform as well you don't just write it you are a performance poet. I'm slightly obsessed with performance poetry before a bowl of Greek yoghurt, strawberries,

honey made by my own bees. My dahlias are blooming so beautifully, aren't they? And look, I baked a lemon drizzle, but I won't have any, not even a crumb, not even a lick of the back of the knife. I cook for my husband in a little apron. A pastel blue that brings out my eyes. Feta, potatoes, walnuts and mint in our south-facing garden. One small glass of blush. And my body doesn't need the vitamin gummies. Quarter aspirin with my morning tea.

It just happens. Like it should it should with no pain and no bleeding they just come and I give them his name oh well amazing this is such a joy for me to just have you sing in front of me reading these out what do you want people to take away from this collection but first tell us about that poem that poem yeah like I said it's just about the pressures put on women you know the domesticity around womanhood and motherhood and feeling almost like a failure if your body's not doing the thing that you think it should I think we feel a lot of guilt and shame around our bodies in general but especially during conception and if it doesn't go the way we think it will which very often it doesn't you know it's never really a

linear journey for a lot of women and when we grow up we think oh you know I'll decide to have a baby do the thing to make the baby and then the baby will be there but it doesn't really work like that and really I think I just want people to get that from it, that there is no shame. There shouldn't be shame. We need freedom from shame. Wonderful. Maria Ferguson, thank you so much.

And that collection, Swell, is out today, and it really is beautiful. Thank you, and thank you for reading to us as well. Message to end on, wow, Polar Preet. Love your positive attitude. Persistence paid. All the best from one Derby girl to another. Yeah, best of luck to Polar Preet.

And thank you for listening. Join me tomorrow. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Join me, Rachel Burden, inside Cafe Hope. Thank you so much. Thank you. Radio 4's virtual coffee shop,

where guests pop in to tell us what they're doing to make the world a better place. I really believe that food waste and food poverty shouldn't coexist. From those helping feed people, to those helping them get out and about. We've now created a scheduled bus service running six days a week. Hear about the plans, the struggles and the triumphs. We've had a really supportive local community here. A home for people who've dedicated their lives to helping others. The new series of Cafe Hope with me, Rachel Burden, from BBC Radio 4. Listen now on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year,

I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.