Woman's Hour - Police abuse supercomplaint, Alice in Wonderland Exhibition and Consensual non-monogamy

Episode Date: May 19, 2021

Since the first publication of Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland in 1865, the books have never been out of print and remain one of the most influential texts in the world. The Victoria and Albert Museum are opening their show Alice: Curiouser and Curiouser this Saturday, which explores why Alice is the ultimate female icon for our times, and how she continues to be such an enduring inspiration. The curator, Kate Bailey and artist and designer Kristjana Williams join Emma to discuss her appeal. In the past, open-relationships might have conjured up the vision of keys in a bowl at the end of the night. But today, the terms polyamorous and consensually non-monogamous are increasingly normalised when it comes to relationships and dating. They describe people who are involved in, or are looking for relationships with more than one partner, with the understanding that one person cannot always be expected to meet all of your needs. And for some people, monogamy just doesn’t work for them. We hear from three people who all describe themselves as non-monogamous, about whether as a society we are accepting of open-relationships. Since a supercomplaint was made last year about domestic abuse by police officers, dozens more women have come forward to say they are affected. The centre for women's justice is still waiting for an outcome to its complaint. But wants the way these cases are dealt with to be drastically changed. We talk to a woman who suffered abuse from her police officer husband. And to Nogah Ofer, the solicitor, woman who is leading the complaint.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and good morning. On today's programme, we are looking at the police and a super complaint regarding institutional sexism, specifically how the police have handled reports of domestic abuse carried out by their own officers. It's a situation complicated by the fact that a significant number of the women who've come forward

are police officers themselves in relationships with other officers. We'll hear more of those details shortly, but you will also hear from a former police chief constable, Sue Fish, as to how it's been for her since speaking out against her own colleagues. Not pleasant, to say the least. On yesterday's programme, we were talking together about dealing with the consequences of speaking your mind, freely and honestly. Well, today I want to ask you about taking on your place of work, either reporting something or someone while you work there, or speaking out after you left,

like Sue. How was that for you? Did it go well? Or do you wish you'd never said anything at all? You can text Women's Hour on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate on social media. We're at BBC Women's Hour or email us through our website. Also on today's programme, we're going to go down the rabbit hole with Alice in Wonderland. A new exhibition explores Alice as a female icon. And speaking of exploring, three women will share their experiences of being in consensual relationships with more than one partner. Perhaps that speaks to you. Do get in touch, you know the way to and keep those experiences coming in throughout the programme. Now the police

have been accused of institutionalised racism before. Now they're being accused of institutionalised sexism, particularly when it comes to handling reports of domestic abuse carried out by their own officers. Nearly 100 more women have come forward since a super complaint about this was lodged by the Centre for Women's Justice, a charity campaigning to end violence against women,

in March last year. A significant number of those are policewomen themselves in relationships with other officers. Our reporter Melanie Abbott has been looking at this. Melanie, first of all, what is a super complaint? Yeah, these super complaints, they actually began in the financial sector and they were only introduced for policing in November 2018. And the idea is that a super complaint looks at systemic problems where a policy may need changing. And they can only be brought by designated organisations. You and I can whack one in, for instance.

And in terms of this particular super complaint, then what is it looking at? What's it been trying to achieve? Yeah, it involves a number of, let's call them specimen cases, if you like, 19 of them where complaints of domestic abuse by police officers, it's claimed, weren't properly dealt with by the police force these men were employed by. And these complaints, they covered 15 different police forces. So it's not just a few failing. And the report talks about, as you said, a locker room culture of institutionalised sexism in the police, which in turn condones and trivialises violence against women, it's claimed. And it identifies 11 common themes. And these range from difficulties

in reporting the abuse, to failures in investigating it, to abused women ending up being arrested. Now, the College of Policing is leading on handling this complaint, but it also involves Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary and the Independent Office for Police Conduct, the IOPC. Now, these three bodies are working together. They have been for almost 14 months now. The College of Policing told me it's taking so long as these points cover significant and complex matters. And the College says it's ensuring the process is as thorough as possible. I was told the investigation should be complete by the end of this year. Thanks, Mel, for putting us in the picture there. Well, one of those awaiting the outcome is Amy, whose case was included in the original super complaint. It's not her real name for obvious reasons. And I should also say she's not a police officer as well, like some of the other women that we were mentioning, but she has agreed to talk to us. Good morning.

Morning. today. I thought we could start by hearing about what happened with your police officer husband, because I know things got particularly bad when you were pregnant. Yes, so I would say that the warning signs were probably there before he joined the police force. So he would throw things around, he'd call me names, track me places on my phone, he'd throw my clothes out if he didn't like them I put it down to sort of immaturity but I fell pregnant and he joined the police force in the same month and that's when things really escalated from there. What happened and after the baby was born? I had quite a difficult birth I ended up spending a week in hospital with an infection and he used the time that I was in hospital to sell my car and use the £3,000 deposit for his own car. He sort of made it out to be something he'd done to help us.

You know, we've got a baby, so now we need a bigger car. He didn't want me to go back to work, which caused me to feel even more sort of trapped. He would always threaten me, you know, I'm a police officer, I can do what I want. But once I had the baby, he had something new to threaten me with, which was my child. So if you don't do what I want, I can have it taken away. I can tell people you're crazy. I can take her, you know, you'll never see her again. I'm a police officer.

Nobody's going to believe you. So, you know, I never see her again I'm a police officer nobody's going to believe you so you know I was a new mum I had no family close by because by this point he'd moved us to a house that was sort of three hours away from any of my family I just felt I was completely trapped and my mental health just massively started to deteriorate. It sounds incredibly difficult to cope with especially at that time of your life becoming a new mother but I suppose what the theme seems to be in some of what you're saying there is that he was using his authority as a police officer yes definitely and and did that make you feel you know of course we know that so

many people can't come forward when in this situation for for lots of reasons not least you're meant to be you know in a relationship with someone and trust them and love them and it's so hard to speak out and the fear factor as well. But did that add a layer of it seemed impossible to get out of this, to talk to anyone? Yes, absolutely, absolutely. I mean, he would never sort of let me attend appointments by myself, so there was never an opportunity to tell anybody what was happening at home.

You know, there was a few instances where you know if I didn't come home at a particular time he'd lock the house and I would have to sleep in the garage so I can remember being about eight months pregnant and like making a bed out of sort of dust sheets and curtains so I could sleep in the garage at night there was just you know he just kept saying no one's no one's going to believe you I can do I can do what I want and at one point you found out that he was overdosing you yes that's right so I started showing some quite obvious signs of mental health difficulties um I've been to my GP and given antidepressants and something to help me sleep but he would always attend those appointments with me.

So there was never an opportunity to say what was happening. I could only sort of express the way that I was feeling at the time. Because I had a new baby, I was referred to social services and they put him in charge of my medication. And I went for a blood test, which showed that I had really high levels of this particular medication in my system. So there was a meeting with social services where basically they said, are you trying to overdose yourself? Why have you got this huge level of drugs in your system, prescribed drugs?

And I said, you know, I'm taking them as he's given them to me. He gives me the eight a day. And then if I get upset them to me he gives me the eight a day and then if I get upset at night time he gives me the other four and it turned out I was supposed to take two not 12 um and he said he made a mistake he hadn't understood the instructions properly and it was probably because you know he was so stressed trying to look after me and social services were so empathetic with him and you know you must be exhausted trying to look after me and social services were so empathetic with them and you know you must be exhausted trying to look after your wife and would you would you like a referral to a support group and would you like counselling and it just set off no alarm bells whatsoever and then when we left

in the car on the way home he said to me well I'll have to think of something else to keep you quiet now then won't I because obviously he knew exactly what you'd been doing. So he was the one that was offered support after that? Yes. What was it for you that made you split, that made you come away from this? I got to the point where I was suicidal with what was happening. So there was an incident where he actually handcuffed me to the banister of our house and he left me there all night when he went on night shift.

And I can't actually remember what it was that I'd done wrong, but I can just remember that our daughter was crying in her cot and she could see me on the banister, but I couldn't get to her because I was tied up. And she spent most of the night crying and wanting her mum because as a six-month baby, you want a bottle and you want your mum's comfort. And she could see me and I couldn't get to her.

You know, people have wonderful memories of the first time their child walked and the first time mum's comfort. And she could see me and I couldn't get to her. You know, people have wonderful memories of the first time their child walked and the first time their child laughed. And the first time my daughter pulled herself up to stand in was that night because she was desperate for her mum and I couldn't get to her. It felt torturous. And I did become suicidal

and I was pulled off the bridge by the police who turned out to be his colleagues. I told them what was happening. I begged them not to take me back. I thought maybe, you know, surely you've got to take me to a place of safety now. Maybe I'm going to get some help. And then they realized who my husband was. And they put me in the police car and they drove me home to him and they told him what had happened and I can remember him shaking my hands and saying oh it's all right cheers for that lads I'll sort her out from here and that was it there was no onward referral there was no support and of course he was furious because now now I'd shown him up in

front of his colleagues now I'd embarrassed. So then the abuse got worse again. And eventually I did think, I can't, I have to get out of this. I can't cope with this anymore. I have to leave. You went to the Independent Police Complaints Commission as well. And within this process, I mean, I know a lot has happened. Tell us about that. And is that because you just felt you couldn't go to the police around you well I did I did go to the police um um I went to a station and I told them what was happening and that I wanted it to stop because by this point he was turning up in the night and pressuring me for sex and there

was a lot of sexual abuse started um i was crying when i went to the police station and the officer left the room to get some tissues but i could hear him on the radio in the next room talking to someone i think it was a sergeant and he was saying i don't think she smells a drink but i'll get a bit closer and smell and I'll ask her about drugs and then there was a discussion he had about how they were going to find out who my GP was to ask if I had the mental capacity to be making these accusations and I'm sat there in the next room hearing all this thinking you haven't even taken my statement yet you haven't asked me any questions my husband was right you don't believe me so the following day officers came from the rape unit they were involved by then they made

it very clear to me that if I wanted to prosecute I'd have to go to court I'd have to go to court against a police officer that he could lose his job how are you going to pay for your child if your husband's unemployed and he can't pay child maintenance? I said I didn't want to prosecute. I just wanted it to stop. And they said, we'll take a statement and we'll deal with it internally and someone will get back to you. But nobody ever did get back to me.

And then what happened? So I had a book of evidence because I was keeping a note of dates and times and witnesses certain things and about a fortnight after I contacted them and said I haven't heard from you and I've just realized all this evidence is still sat here you haven't looked at it you haven't asked for it you want this evidence you know you said you said you wanted it so they said okay we'll send someone out so two colleagues came out from the station where my husband worked they turned up in riot vans which i felt was quite intimidating to take this evidence away that evidence was taken to the station where my husband worked and parts of it were never seen again. The statement that I'd made no longer exists. It wasn't scanned onto a computer anywhere.

The paper copy went missing from the warehouse where the records are kept. So all the evidence was gone. And now, of course, I'd reported it and he got away with it. So that seemed to give him even more confidence that he could do what he wanted. I changed the locks on the house, for example, because he was turning up in the night. And so he just broke in. So I called 999 and said, he's breaking into the house. The back doors, you know, the glass was smashing. Please, can you come and help me? And they said, it's a civil matter and we're not going to come um then he started

setting up direct debit on my in my name so I was paying his bills debt collectors were turning up saying you owe us thousands of pounds for this loan that you've taken out I haven't taken out a loan. So that was the point where I went to the IPCC and they unfortunately didn't do anything. If you have an issue with the police force, in the majority of cases, the IPCC refer that complaint back to the police force so that they can investigate themselves, which doesn't make any sense.

And this leads us to the super complaint. I am going to bring a solicitor in from the Centre for Women's Justice in just a moment. But do you have faith in this super complaint making a change to the police having gone through this? I mean, I have no confidence in the police now whatsoever. So I sleep with a hammer under my bed because I don't think if I'm burgled in the night, the police will come to help me. My ex-husband and his colleagues, they all still work in the local area. So for me, I feel like it's actually dangerous for me to ever ring 999 because if they attend,

I'm putting myself at risk. I hope that things will change. You know, the police have to accept that there are officers who are not working just to serve and protect. I'm not saying that they're all bad, but people of a certain abusive personality type are attracted to positions of authority like the police, like the doctors. You know, we've all heard about heraldic men or teachers, clergymen. I suppose the point to stress is they are a minority, although as our listeners will hear, and you will hear in a moment from a former chief constable, she believes it's a significant minority. But you know, the point is an important one about who's drawn to the police and how crucially the police police the police. Let's bring in Noga Ofer with us from the Centre for Women's Justice, a solicitor.

How common is Amy's experience, Noga? Good morning. Well, we don't know exactly because there aren't any national figures, but certainly we've been really surprised at the Centre for Women's Justice by just how many women have got in touch. After we put in the super complaint. We hadn't, you know, asked anyone to contact us. We haven't made any calls for, you know, for women to come forward. But we've we've been sort of flooded out. I think the latest number in total is 129 women who've been in touch.

And in fact, by the time we put in the super complaint, there had already been some press coverage and we had 46 women who'd been in touch by that stage. Well the response from the National Police Chiefs Council about this, let me give you part of their statement for you to respond to, sadly domestic abuse happens in all walks of life and professions. While the vast majority of officers work hard to protect victims and bring offenders to justice, we know that abusers can seek professions affording them power and control. This is not unique to policing, but because of the unique power afforded to officers,

we do take any allegation of abuse against an officer very seriously. Domestic abuse is a crime. Officers will face criminal investigation and likely dismissal if the case is proven. Good officers are disgusted by the very small number who abuse a partner or family member and will want to see justice done.

What do you make of that? Well, obviously, you know, a lot of officers are good officers and some cases are dealt with well. But the concern is that those things in the statement is how it should happen. But in practice, what we're seeing from lots and lots of cases where there's lots of similar patterns emerging is that's not what actually does happen. And I think when we look at some of the police policies at the moment, they just is different to, you know, any other man who's accused of domestic abuse because he is part of the system. And there is, you know, a tendency and a risk for colleagues to want to help him and sweep things under the carpet.

There need to be systems that are robust and recognise this is a special case. There need to be more arrangements to make sure that cover ups don't happen in these cases and an open conversation about the risk of cover up and the fact that actually helping colleagues to cover these cases up is serious misconduct in itself as well. What can you do, though, if you're in Amy's situation or if you haven't come forward and you could have done or could still do as part of this super complaint and you haven't received justice? Is there any way of those women getting justice now? I mean, there are always complaint processes you can go through. But the reason why we put in the super complaint is that what we think needs to change is the way the whole system is set up so at the moment yes individual

women can try and put in complaints and so on but quite often they just find it a very frustrating process um and so we that's why we want the super complaint to result in new systems they're always going to have a problem where you've got police investigating police and that's a problem all over the world we've seen lots of research about this in the US, Canada and Australia. There's lots of discussion around this. But at least, for example, we want it to be a separate police force that investigates these cases. So at least there's some kind of firewall between the investigators and the suspect. They're not going to be colleagues who know each other. I was just going to say, presumably for those police officers listening who find themselves in this situation, it would be very useful for them to be able to

have that system when trying to look at this, because it would give them safety, I suppose, in the system. That's right. It's better for everybody and it's better for transparency and confidence in the system as a whole. If these cases are dealt with, you know, very carefully to make sure that they're, you know, the possibilities for sort of sabotage or or even just for the kind of brushing under the carpet. You know, lots of cases where it's just like, oh, well, we'll just deal with it with informal words of advice rather than dealing with it properly you know there needs to be an open conversation about how important it is within the police that these cases are not just dealt with properly but also seem to be dealt with properly no go for thank you very much for your time and amy thank you to you a message here saying i'm weeping listening to amy's story about this torture no other word for it by her police officer husband appalled and

actually terrified another one here an anonymous message, I'm a big fan of your programme. However, the news over the last few days with regard to the above and not just on the BBC has been very one-sided. The police service is drawn from society and as a result has all of the ills of society. It is most certainly not perfect, but we need to be careful not to undermine all of our confidence in the service. I would just like like to say although now retired for many years throughout my service i never assaulted my wife children or indeed anyone else an important message to read out we wanted to get the reaction of a former chief constable and specifically actually former chief constable of nottinghamshire police force sue fish who's been on this program before you may remember it because it was quite a moment in March.

She caused waves by saying here on Woman's Hour that she would struggle to report a crime against herself to the police and described going through the justice system as a woman, thankless. It's a thankless process. She retired from Nottinghamshire Police in 2017. And I spoke to her just before coming on air this morning. And I asked her if she thought this super complaint could or would sort out systemic problems in the police. Well, I hope it's going to be a really important lever to start to address this really important issue

and it has to be taken seriously by policing because sadly this is not a rare issue. Is it not? I mean, over 100 women have come forward in this case. Do you suspect it's far more? This is the tip of the iceberg, without question. The issues of reporting against police officers, not least if you as a victim are also a police officer, are really, really complex. They're complex for any woman to report domestic abuse. But when the perpetrator is a police officer,

that's really magnified. Call me incredibly naive, but just to take a really lovely view of the world for a moment, you think you go into the police because you want to stop crime, stop harm. And you're saying it's the tip of the iceberg around lots of police officers potentially, I mean, you can quantify that or not, being domestic abusers.

Yeah, I absolutely agree with you. And the vast majority of police officers go into the service with exactly those intentions and do tremendous good in communities with victims, with witnesses. There are a significant minority that are attracted to policing because you can exercise power and control over others. And that's something that clearly floats their boat, because domestic abuse is all about power and control. And so if that works in your personal life, it's likely to work in your professional life too. A significant minority, what do you mean by that? Well, it is impossible to quantify. But I think what we know from those individuals who come forward and report abuse, we know in the general population, it is very, very underreported.

There is no reason to suspect it's any different, sadly, in policing. I'd love to think that policing is better. My experience is it's probably not, sadly. And in terms of, you know, not damaging confidence, though, in the police, when people hear this this morning about this being, you know, a significant minority, the tip of the iceberg, how do you think we can balance that? I think it's about how policing respond to this. I mean, policing has over the years made significant improvements in terms of how it deals with domestic abuse victims. And there is some astoundingly brilliant work going on to support victims at some of the worst

times in their lives. However, I think in terms of addressing behaviours of some police officers, there is still a long way to go. And when you and I last spoke on this programme, you talked about the fact that if you were sexually assaulted, or in any way, you know, a victim, you would find it very difficult to go to the police, which was a jaw dropping statement. And you then went on to reveal in a different interview that you were sexually assaulted by two senior colleagues when you were a younger officer. Yes. I just wonder, because you talked there about the response of the police being so important, how have your former colleagues reacted to you talking about that?

Some have been incredibly supportive and sometimes from unsurprising places and sometimes from surprising places, if that makes sense. And others have been less constructive, if I can put it that way. Because it's hard for you to, well, it'd be hard for anyone to talk about this, but to talk against your own, effectively, having been so senior in the police. Yeah, it was incredibly hard to talk about it, but I felt it was important to share some of my story as a police officer to help others and to help policing improve. I think with the super complaint, this is exactly the same. It has to be used to improve policing further. There is still a way to go. If I can ask the less constructive comments,

how you put it, from former colleagues, is it that there's denial there or are they embarrassed or they think you shouldn't be talking about what happened to you? And to specify, you've said, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but you have said you would typify what happened to you when you were a younger officer as unwanted touching, just in case people were thinking what did happen to you? It has been mocking, it has been derogatory about me, it has been unkind at best, it has been dismissive. I think is probably how I would try and be constructive about how they responded. I was really heartened by the fact that so many women came forward and shared their story because I gave them confidence that it wasn't just happening to them and also to other former colleagues who were incredibly supportive and appalled at the experience that I went through and some disclosed to me that they'd been very fortunate they saw themselves because they'd not had that those sorts of experiences through their

career and and they're less constructive the less constructive comments have they been coming to you those sorts of experiences through their career. And the less constructive comments, have they been coming to you on social media? Have they been coming directly to you? How have people communicated their upset and mocking and disdain with you? Mostly on social media. I've had, and I of course closed that down when I knew that I was going to when I made the

decision to to share some of my story um as in you came off social media yes yes um and some directly because you know it's not hard to find people these days and some came directly to me um and some was um you know I've lots of people including your research you know my mobile phone number you know it's not quite as available as the prime minister's but um it's you know it's it's not hard to get hold of people these days is it so um some came directly um mostly through social media and sort of through often um through social media groups and things like that, and a lot of ex-police officers and social media groups, some of which I've not seen because I'm not part of. And how have you found that?

Unsurprising, but disappointing nonetheless. Do you have faith that the police is going to change from this point of view, having then just gone through your own speaking out about issues to do with control and abuse? I think I'm probably more optimistic now than I have been. A lot of the people I'm talking about are former colleagues who are also former officers. They're no longer serving. And I'd like to hope that the leadership of the service now and indeed those in it are rather more open-minded

and want to see opportunities to improve, not just their own officers and staff's experience, but that of the public as well, and particularly for those who find it so challenging to report what has happened to them, and that in particular is those who've been subject of sexual or domestic abuse. Thank you to Sue Fish, the former chief constable of Nottinghamshire Police Force. I asked you right at the beginning about speaking out against your own while you've done it,

if you've been at a company or at a business, if you've done it while you've been there or you've done it afterwards, what happened? Thank you for these messages. One here, I work for a bank. There's an understanding

if you speak out, you're a troublemaker. If you're a woman and speak out, you'll be isolated. The matter can range from how risks are managed in their business or how colleagues are bullied.

When I raised concerns politely, they turned critical of me and eventually told me I was redundant. At the time, I raised the concern that I had a very high performance rating. Speaking out is a no-go if one wants to keep the job. Another message here, very sobering, that one. And this, even more. I work in the civil service. I was being harassed and stalked by a colleague at work.

When I found the strength to raise a grievance about this at work, my home was attacked with myself and my children sleeping inside. I reported this to work. Nothing was done. I was having to go into work alongside the man while all of this was going on. And in the end, he was removed from the office. But I was surrounded by management who did nothing. And more coming in.

One more about social work. I'm a senior social worker. I spoke out in a team against dysfunctional managers. I eventually left the job and my team, which I loved, but couldn't tolerate the bullying from managers and worked independently for a while. I was given a positive reference when I left. But two years later, having applied for another permanent role, the same manager was given, we gave such a terrible reference that the job offer was withdrawn. Luckily, I was able to explain the circumstances

to the new employer and provide an alternative referee and I got the job. The experience has stayed with me as a warning not to speak out. The manager has moved on up and now sits in a senior position. This is not an unusual story in social work real

theme coming through there about talking out well thank you for talking out with us please continue to do so and especially now we've already got a couple of messages on this because i raised it right at the beginning of the program we were talking about exploring and pushing boundaries in a very different way because now we're going to hear from three women pushing the boundaries of relationships because in a year like no other where all of our relationships have been put under you know various pressures because of successive lockdowns or you may have been single and wanted to start a relationship you may have found yourself if you do have another half thinking differently about them as well

or try having other halves plural three women are here to share their experiences of being in consensual relationships with more than one partner. If I was to ask you if you were E&M or poly, would you have a clue about that? They are now the shorthand ways of describing people who identify as ethically non-monogamous and polyamorous. People who are involved in or looking for open or non-monogamous relationships with more than one partner. And those phrases you may have seen becoming increasingly popular as options or descriptors on dating sites. Well, a few years ago, that may have conjured up keys in a bowl in a party. Now, more people are going towards this because monogamy isn't working for them.

If you've got any experiences, and I have to say already messages coming in on that, do get in touch. Let's speak to Bronwyn, Madeleine and Jacqueline, all in non-monogamous relationships with different versions of what this means to them. A warm welcome to all of you. If I could start with you, Madeline, actually, how would you describe your relationship? So I'm in a non-monogamous triad. We are an open triad. there are some people I know who are in kind of like closed relationships um which function basically as a monogamous couple would but there's more than two people in it um so we're in an open triad and we're polyamorous but I also use ethically non-monogamous as a kind of descriptor for myself um and I have a male and a female partner is this

what we also have heard referred to as a throuple yeah you just don't like that word we really hate it just it's a bit cringy for us we're very um yeah we uh we don't really tend to use either triad or throuple normally i just kind of refer to my partners kind of plural and let people make their own uh their own assumptions so um do you do you live with one tell us who you live with and how it works. And is it a man or woman? Tell us. I live with my male partner. The structure of the relationship is basically that I'm dating both of them and then they're dating.

And then we also kind of, you know, we have a relationship, the three of us as well. So it's sort of like four relationships, which sounds quite complicated and it can get quite a lot of hard work. So obviously it's worth it. Your girlfriend doesn't live with you, but you live with your... No, she doesn't. The boyfriend part of this.

But you are as a three and that works how? It works as if I was dating one person. I'm just dating two really. So yeah, my male partner and I live together and we moved in together as a result of sort of covid and lockdowns and everything um and we yeah you know we schedule date nights with each other we schedule date nights with our girlfriend when schedules allow which is quite rare to be honest we try and schedule date nights with like the three of us all together you know or you know plan trips or whatever um but it functions I think the

biggest like um misunderstanding that I kind of hear people think it's that like non-monogamy is like really like weird or out there or different and it is it's the same as for me for us anyway it's the same as monogamy essentially it's just not monogamous but it's no different to kind of any other relationship in that sense it sounds like quite a lot of scheduling and conversations as well as everything else. Yeah, there's a lot of jokes in the polyam community about how it's all just shared calendars. It's like that's all it is. It's just shared calendars and communication. Well, that's it.

There's got to be something else going on there as well, which we'll get to in a minute. Bronwyn, you're practicing solo polyamory, which sounds like an oxymoron but tell us more how does that work? So I am open to having multiple committed loving long-term relationships but I'm not open to living with a partner or sharing finances or getting married having children and what that means is that it's the benefit to me and my relationships is having that autonomy enhances both my relationship with myself and with my partners. So you have relationships with lots of different people, several different people. I'm trying to understand what the difference is between being single and seeing a few different people at the same time and what you're doing. Well, it's less about seeing

and more about having actual invested relationships. So it's not like dating around. It's more about, you know, being actually invested in those relationships, but not living with those people. And why did you get drawn to this? Why did you want to do it? I think I came out of a relatively monogamous married relationship about two-ish years ago and really relish kind of having that space after having cohabited with a partner for about nine years. Really relish that space and autonomy and felt like this was something that I wanted to have in my life moving forward. Let's bring Jacqueline into this. Like Bron Bronwyn you and your husband had been monogamous

previously how did you first have this conversation who started it? It was me and you'll find in the polyamorous community it's often the women that bring up the notion of polyamory. Looking back, my orientation had always been polyamorous and having the ability to love more than one. I didn't talk about it. It didn't seem to be the thing that you do. So I got married and I got a phone call from an old flame from many years ago. We met for a drink and the energy was there.

And I came home and told my husband and we unpicked it. How can we do this? And we started to get books such as The Ethical Slut and started the journey. So what's the status now? Do you have someone else? Does he have someone else? My husband and I live together. We date separately.

We have other partners, but we prefer something that's called kitchen table, which basically means my partners, his partners, we've actually got our own friendships too. It's fairly transparent. So just to be clear, what was different about our first guest on this, about Madeleine, is you do not engage as a threesome. No.

You go off and have your own relationships. We have our own separate relationships. And I was wondering for people listening who have had someone had an affair, you know, what they make of this, because I suppose for a lot of people, they couldn't handle this because jealousy is an innate part of so many of us. You know, we'd like it not to be. What's your view of that being, and this arrangement potentially being, a better one than the lots of people who find themselves in the divorce courts or separating?

I wouldn't say this love style is a better love style. It's a different love style. Monogamous relationships add value too. Jealousy is a real thing. What polyamory does encourage you to do is unpick and actually learn where the jealousy is coming from. And it's not often from that situation. It's from a place of fear, fear of being abandoned. When I speak to people where affairs have come out. It doesn't mean that the actual relationship was that there was a problem. The problem is there were lies, there were deceit.

And there was just from your point of view, you've got children, haven't you? Yes. Do they know? Yes. And how did you have that conversation well my I've got three sons they're young adults um I've always raised them to celebrate diversity my oldest son is an LGBTQ youth worker so we've always had a very open family home when i did have the conversation it was yeah whatever mum the millennials the younger it actually feels quite comfortable and normal um you'll find with younger children who are living in polyamorous households it's just about normalizing that.

So... Do you think, let's bring Madeleine back into this, do you think we can normalise it, though? Because I've just received a message, Madeleine, which has said, you know, we've had to hide this from everyone around us because there is such a taboo and social stigma. Madeleine, what do you make of that? I think there definitely is a lot of social stigma

and a lot of just misinformation and ignorance out there um coming on this program was quite interesting for me because i told my mum and she was not particularly happy about it you hadn't told her before no she she knew that i was polyamorous okay i told her i was coming on this program she was extremely worried about who was going to hear it and it's kind of sorry i thought i thought we'd forced a conversation there that you hadn't yet had because that's one way for people to find out about your relationship status to come on women's hour go on don't worry um but that's the thing I think there's a lot of especially amongst older generations I think you know my generation and the one the people younger than me definitely there's a lot of openness and there's a lot more kind of understanding and kind of a willingness to understand you know they might not have heard a term before or they might not you know personally do something but there's a lot of openness and there's a lot more kind of understanding and kind of a willingness to understand you know they might not have heard a term before or they might not you know personally

do something but there's definitely a willingness there to learn about it and to ask questions and a sort of um curiosity well no because we've got a range of ages here Madeleine you're in your your 20s and Jacqueline how old are you I'm 51 51 and Bronwyn where where do you come in on this I'm 40 40 and and how is it around Bronwyn with you and your friends, but also the older people in your life? Do they all know and do they react how you'd like them to? Yeah, I think because I'm queer and I've been out for 20 years, that everyone's always kind of been very open and accepting about my lifestyle and my life. And yeah, so it felt very comfortable to also come out about this about two years ago as well.

Jacqueline, any advice for anyone listening who'd like to have this conversation with their partner? As you say, your experience is that women tend to lead it. Yes, I approached it by starting a conversation about monogamy on a macro level what are your views does it really work is this true um and then you have to give people time to process sometimes you're not going going to get the response that you hope you've got to be prepared for that most times you will there are so many resources i mean half an hour from the conversation we ordered the books there's lots of organizations out there books information there are lots of meetups so you don't have to be alone as a couple to start the journey i have to say i as a couple to start the journey.

I have to say, I think in response to one here, we've got people saying they'd like to try it. They don't know how or it's a taboo. But Tom's also written in to say it sounds like quite a lot of hard work when he was hearing about the scheduling. And you're all nodding in unison there. Madeleine, why are you nodding just finally and quickly um i so me and my partners we started dating as a triad uh on the 9th of march 2020 um so we saw each other twice and then we're in lockdown for about six months i didn't see each other um and i think it is a lot of hard work i think polyamory as a whole it takes a lot of emotional work it takes a lot of self-awareness it takes a lot of communication well i think we will have started that's easy we we will have started a big conversation. Madeleine, Bronwyn,

Jacqueline, thank you. Now I just say we'll go down the rabbit hole and since the first publication of Alice Adventures in Wonderland in 1865 it's never been out of print and alongside its sequel Alice Through the Looking Glass, it remains one of the most influential texts in the world.

The Victorian Albert Museum are opening its show Alice Curiouser and Curiouser this Saturday, which explores why Alice is the ultimate female icon for our times. I spoke to the curator Kate Bailey and artisan designer Christiana Williams. And I started by asking Kate about Alice Liddell, the girl who actually inspired the story. Well, the real Alice Liddell was this seven-year-old girl, very bold, very curious, growing up in Christchurch, Oxford. The origins of the story actually began on the 4th of July on one golden afternoon, allegedly, where Alice was on a rowing boat with Lewis Carroll and her sisters, and he told the story of Alice's adventures. And what was Lewis Carroll's relationship? Well, he was a mathematician, a scholar at Christchurch

where she was growing up because her father was the dean of Christchurch and at the beginning of the exhibition we take you to that moment of being in Oxford, being Alice, being on that boat, listening to the story of her adventures as she moves from real to imaginary worlds. It's her dream, it's her story, it's her adventure. And that's the first book. And then we go on and also we look at Through the Looking Glass, her second kind of adventure through the mirror.

And the down the rabbit hole and through the mirror. Indeed. And the illustrations, the original illustrations, Christiana, in the Alice in Wonderland book, I still remember them years on. Yes. Tell us about how important you think they've been. I think they were so important because John Tanya was getting the sense of humour of how Lewis Carroll wrote his sentences. And just you can really feel the sensitivity and the childlikeness and the humour but so beautifully crafted like the engravings of the time so his drawing style was just so wonderful but I think together with how they collaborated they really captured the flurry

of imagination that Lewis Carroll had throughout. John Tenniel a political illustrator normally. Yes. Turning his hand to Wonderland must have been quite freeing for him and i was going to say talking of freeing it's quite striking just to come back to you kate that it's two men creating this little girl's world in a time of well you tell us about the victorian era and how it would have been for girls and women well it's interesting because i think there are three people that make this a success and it is Alice and John Tenniel and Lewis Carroll. And in a way, the books sort of really allow her to be sort of set free from the constraints of Victorian society. She's such a kind of independent, free-thinking little girl at a time when the sense of childhood for Victorian little girls was quite difficult. They had to conform, they had to follow rules. And here you have this girl on her own adventure through

this nonsensical universe. It must have been extraordinary for her. So she was this young girl growing up, surrounded by dons and scholars and all these strange characters. At that point, she was able to be educated by a governess, but she wasn't allowed to go to school like her brothers. She was denied a university education. So if you were curious, if you were really fascinated by learning, which clearly she was from the kind of tone and her character in the books, then you must have been so sort of frustrated. And it's sort of her frustration in the books with trying to find out more about the world and the universe, which I think is so sort of compelling and fascinating. How queer everything is today.

I wonder if I've been changed in the night. Let me think. Was I the same when I got up this morning? Do we know what happened to Alice? Yeah, in the exhibition, we see her as a seven-year-old girl and we come back to her when she's in her 20s. And she's photographed by Julia Margaret Cameron, who was a pioneering photographer. We have lots of her works in the collection. And we see Alice as a kind of grown woman

and she still has that assertive look. She's still staring out at you, very confident. But at the same time, here she was a kind of creative woman. And at that moment, her mother was just trying to line up the best husband for her. But yeah, the real Alice had a very interesting life. And we do explore that. Christiana, you have illustrated an Alice book for the V&A inspired by dioramas. Can you explain those? Can you describe them and how you've used them?

Yes, I work as a collage artist with Victorian engravings. So I came into the V&A. We ended up seeing this plethora of dioramas and theatre books where you kind of look into it. And it's essentially just if you imagine a theatre stage stage but they're handheld and you can look into them and this is what people would amuse themselves with before we had camera before we had movies so all of those dioramas were just almost like little handheld cinema objects that were used at the time and that's kind of what inspired the engravings and the illustration from so each page is a narrative that doesn't only tell Alice's story but it also tells the curation of the

exhibition so these little pop-up theatres these dioramas inspired the way that you were then trying to tell the story again I mean that's the thing so many people have wanted to tell this story haven't they yes it's a hugely popular tale all these years, aren't they, Kate? Why did you want to bring Alice again to life like this? Is that because you think she's relevant to girls and to women today? I think Alice is such a strong character and she has to deal with all these extraordinary changes that happen to her, all these extraordinary characters. And she grows up and she takes on these challenges and unleashes so many people's imaginations. And the idea of the wonderlands and the concepts

within the book from, you know, space, time and scale. And she sort of becomes this modern heroine. And I think I looked a lot at, you know, why do they feel so relevant today? And there's something about that, no one being too small to make a difference and speaking truth to power that was really identifiable with Alice. Yes. And also the renaissance of interest in her. There's a part of the exhibition called Reimagining Alice. There was a renaissance in the 60s. Yeah. Alice really becomes sort of an icon for the counterculture. We look at her as this agent for change. You know, she's picked up by artists like Yayo Kusama, who actually had a happening with Alice around the Central Park statue of the Mad Hatter,

where it's sort of anti-Vietnam War. So you feel Alice has this ability to be this agent for change at times of change. Well, to illustrate this 60s vision, you feature a clip from the Jonathan Miller BBC adaptation of the Mad Hatter Tea Party. There isn't any. It wasn't very civil of you to offer it. It wasn't very civil of you to sit down before you were invited. I thought you did invite me. Anyway, the table stayed for a great deal more than three. Ah, your, um, your, uh, your hair, uh, once cutting. You shouldn't make personal remarks. It's very rude.

Oh, why is a raven like a writing desk, I wonder? Oh, I wonder? Oh, I'm glad you've begun asking riddles. I think I can guess that one. This clip is so powerful because Jonathan Miller cast Anne-Marie Malick as Alice, and she's so nonchalant. She was such a kind of different Alice to the Alice that we might have seen with Disney, with Mary Blair. She comes out and she really observes the adult world

in a very different way, perhaps in that sort of sense of the sort of second wave of feminism. Christiane, I wanted to bring you back in on the characters that she encounters, the female characters, lots of them potentially murderous. The Duchess to the cook to the Queen, ordering off with his head, of course. What do you make of that?

And what does Alice potentially learn from that? God, I did really love that, like the strength of them. And when we were creating the Duchess of the Queen's Garden, we just made sure if you look into the illustration, there's loads of weapons and swords and she's going there around, you know, chopping people's head off. And I think what's so wonderful is Alice is there at seven years old going I won't stand for this you know this is no good of course you shouldn't have your

head chopped off so I think doing this seemingly impossible and getting it all to court she just gives so much strength of character but I feel like I loved the strong murderous women and I love seeing women in this role because it's just like I look at my eight-year-old daughter and, you know, nothing is impossible. And I feel like that thing of growing up, getting to be an adult, being that cook and the queen, you know, holding the pig, you know, all of that. That's the woman that gets put onto you after you're a mother and you have all of these things in your hand rather than you know being able to be an eight-year-old girl where everything is open I think that's what she opens up so well yeah well I have to say the story describes it so vividly when you are younger and you read it for the first time if you if that's when you come to it you always remember it but I'm very excited about this idea, Christiana, of a virtual reality experience as well. And particularly, I've never played croquet in real life.

So doing it in Wonderland sounds amazing. Tell us about that. Yeah, especially when she spots the two hedgehogs that are having a fight and she's going to try to knock the hedgehogs with her club. But then she realized the club that is a flamingo has walked away. But the virtual that is a flamingo has like walked away but the virtual the virtual reality is so wonderful because the one thing that that does as opposed to a diorama or something physical that we looked at or tim walker's wonderful photographs is that you get to experience

the scale so it's a bit like being a kid again all of a sudden you drank the potion and you're there tiny at the bottom of the table you're looking up you're looking 360 degrees and then you get transported into the mushroom forest and you're there with a caterpillar smoking the hookah so it just submerges you completely if anything's ever suited to virtual reality, it's Alice because of the scale and those dramatic journeys. Well, I'm happy you mentioned smoking something there. I mean, Kate, do we think Lewis Carroll was smoking something?

I mean, how did he come up with all of this? Well, there's been a lot of research into that. And actually, I think mostly people say he didn't. There's something about his creativity and that artistic and scientific imagination that he had that perhaps made him look at the world differently. Do you want to be Alice when you grow up, Kate? When I grow up?

Yes. I'm wondering when that might be. I know, I think we all are. I wish you'd got a memo in the post saying, you are now a grown-up, it's official, it begins. I have felt like Alice at times in the creation of the show, for sure. And I think we can all be a bit Alice, you know, a bit more Alice. Yes.

Truth to power, you know, take on adventures, deal with difficult issues and make sense of a nonsensical universe. Indeed. Kate Bailey, curator of the V&A and the artist Christiana Williams. The exhibition is at the V&A from May 22nd. A message has just come in with regard to the polyamorous question we were talking about before.

How do they find all their different people? I can't even find one. Frankie, thank you for your candour. And some very, very important messages, which we will come back to at some point about the officers and the policing of the police. And I should say with our discussion about that and that super complaint, if you need any support, those support links are going up on the Woman's Hour website now. Thank you for your company. We'll be back with you tomorrow. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one.

Sneakers? Trainers. Join us again for the next one. to be telling the crazy origin stories of the most well-known sports companies and their relentless quest to be the world's number one brand. Sneakernomics tells the story of fierce competition and rivalry, one that tore families and friendships apart and even divided towns. We'll follow in the footsteps of mavericks, hustlers and dreamers and hear their tales of boom and bust, fame and infamy, hope and heartbreak. Above all, this is the story of the people behind the shoes. From BBC Radio 4, this is Sneakonomics. Subscribe at BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.