Woman's Hour - Police Accountability, Wizard of Oz, Phubbing, World Cup song

Episode Date: July 19, 2023

The mother whose daughters were murdered, and their photographs then shared on a police WhatsApp group gives a keynote speech this morning at the launch of a new organisation designed to help stamp out misogyny, sexism and racism in the police. Mina Smallman has become an activist since the death of her daughters in 2020. Nuala McGovern will speak live to our reporter Melanie Abbott who will be at the launch and to Mina Smallman.Are you guilty of 'phubbing'? This means snubbing someone to look at your phone. New research into the effects on married couples has found that couples who regularly phub each other have lower marriage satisfaction. To discuss the issue Nuala is joined by Claire Cohen, author and journalist, who says she is guilty of this.Having graduated from drama school only three years ago Georgina Onuorah takes on the role of Dorothy in a new production of The Wizard of Oz currently on stage at the London Palladium. She joins Nuala in the Woman’s Hour studio to sing ‘Over the Rainbow’ live.Over 80% of legal practitioners feel that the family court, when dealing with private law cases, is likely to retraumatise victims and survivors of domestic abuse. That’s according to a survey by the Office of the Domestic Abuse Commissioner which was published in a report yesterday. Nuala is joined by Nicole Jacobs, the Domestic Abuse Commissioner to find out what the report revealed. Nuala also hears from a Woman’s Hour listener who is critical of the way that the family court works.Today a new song, Call Me A Lioness, is released to coincide with the start of the Women's World Cup. The drummer on the track, Al Greenwood from the band The Sports Team, joins Nuala in the studio. Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Emma Pearce

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour. In a few minutes, I'll be speaking to Mina Smallman. Her daughters, Biba Henry and Nicole Smallman, were killed in a London park and pictures of their bodies were shared by the officers who were supposed to be guarding them. Mina is at the launch of the Alliance for Police Accountability

will be there in a moment. We have also the actor with the glorious voice, Georgina Onora. She'll be in the Woman's Hour studio. Georgina is Dorothy in The Wizard of Oz at the London Palladium so get ready to hear Somewhere Over the Rainbow in Technicolour Radio. Also today, we'll be talking about fubbing, the act of ignoring

someone, typically a romantic partner, in order to spend more time with your phone. Are you guilty of said act? Are you a fubber? Why do you do it? Or are you sometimes on the receiving end of the phone snub, the fubby? Well, scientists in a new study, they say they found that individuals who felt they were being fubbed by their partner more frequently reported feeling more conflict and less intimacy. Is that you? How do you deal with it? Have you found the solution? Share it. You can text the programme. The number is 84844

or on social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour or for a voice note or WhatsApp message 03700 100 444. Also today, the Domestic Abuse Commissioner for England and Wales, Nicole Jacobs, she has released a report that is calling for urgent reforms to a family justice system that she says re-traumatises victims, minimises abuse and fails to hear the voice of the child. And on the eve of the Women's World Cup, we will bring you

what you might be singing over the next month. Hope FC, as they call themselves. They have Self Esteem, Olivia Dean and Mel C on the team among others. They've released Call Me a Lioness. Their drummer, Al Greenwood, will be here with us in the Woman's Hour studio too.

But first, how do we fix the police? Now that is a question that has been asked by all those horrified by the murder of Sarah Everhard, by the women duped into setting up families with undercover police officers, by the women of Sarah Everhard, by the women duped into setting up families with undercover police officers, by the women assaulted by police,

and also by Mina Smallman. As I mentioned, her daughters, Biba Henry and Nicole Smallman, were murdered in June 2020. Two Metropolitan police officers tasked with guarding their bodies took photographs of them and shared them with friends and colleagues on WhatsApp.

They were each sentenced to two years and nine months for misconduct in public office. This morning, Mina Smallman gives a keynote address at the launch of a new organisation called the Alliance for Police Accountability in South London. And I'm pleased to say I'll be joined by Mina in just a moment. But first, here's our reporter, Melanie Abbott, who is at the launch. So, Melanie, tell us a little about where you are. Yes, I'm here at Lambeth Town Hall in Brixton, which is maybe an appropriate spot because of the size of the black community here.

People are beginning to file in now for the conference, which is going to kick off very shortly. You might be able to hear just the background music going on to warm people up, as it were, for the day. And this event is going to happen, is going to be on all day long and they're going to hear from serving and former police officers as well as victims of police failures from elsewhere not just London disability activists and human rights campaigners now Sir Mark Rowley the Commissioner of the Met and the Scotland Chief Constable Sir Ian

Livingstone and the Avon and Somerset Chief Constable Sarah Crewe have all been invited. Both Sir Ian and Chief Constable Crewe have already admitted that their forces are institutionally racist. Sarah Crewe said she also suspects that there is sexism and misogyny, but she says that there are gaps in the data, so she can't really have the evidential proof of this, but she's pretty sure of it. Now, sadly, none of these three top police officers have been able to make it today. So tell us a little bit more about the alliance, what they're hoping to achieve. Well, it's newly formed. It arose out of black pressure groups, including the Black Equity Organization. It aims to tackle sexism and misogyny as well as racism in the police.

And it particularly wants to ensure that the reforms which were called for in the review of the Metropolitan Police by Baroness Casey, that review was out back in March, it wants to ensure that those recommendations are pushed through. Now you'll remember the review was ordered after the murder of Sarah Everard and it really did deliver some pretty horrific findings including one officer who was repeatedly raped by a colleague, staff being urinated on during what were called initiation rituals and rape cases being dropped because the evidence was lost due to a broken freezer. It really did make very grim reading. Now she concluded, perhaps not surprisingly, when you

read the report and you hear of instances like that, that there were severe failings and radical reform was needed. The force was failing women and children, she said. There was institutional racism, sexism and homophobia affecting those inside and outside the organisation. And worryingly, she concluded the Met was unable to police itself. And we have to see this, of course, in the context of coming after the Macpherson report, which followed the Stephen Lawrence murder,

more than 20 years ago, which found then that the Met was institutionally racist. So tell us, Mel, a little bit about the sort of reforms that are being called for. Yeah, there were a lot of them. It was a very, very hefty report. But let me give you the main ones. To better protect women and children, to reinvest and reprioritise frontline policing, take rapid steps to end discrimination and to bring in an independent team to run its misconduct system and, as part of that really, to have higher vetting standards in the first place and to disband what Baroness Casey called dark corners of the Met,

like the firearms unit, and also to improve its leadership and accountability. Now, interestingly, the Alliance does leadership and accountability. Now interestingly, the Alliance does consider that these are light recommendations, although it backs them. And of course, we must remember it's not just the Met with problems. I made a documentary myself which found that many, many police forces have got officers who've committed offences against women, and many officers within the force suffer habitual sexism. Recently South Wales Police was found to have the highest number of officers and staff involved in allegations of violence against women and girls. Thank you very much Melanie. Well as I mentioned Mina Smallman whose daughters were

murdered is there too and I can talk to her now. That awful event has made her an activist and a campaigner. Good morning Mina. Good morning. Welcome back to Woman's Hour. I haven't spoken to you previously however so I want to say first that I'm so sorry for your loss. You are giving the keynote speech shortly. What do you want to get across? Hope, actually. Hope because I think there are many people in communities who no longer trust the police. I know certainly a large proportion of women are frightened to call the police because of the recent attacks by them. But I organised a service at St Paul's on the 11th of June and it was entitled It's Time.

And the purpose of that service was to have not just our children who were murdered, it was three years on, it was the closest to the date where they'd been murdered. But other families who had their children, women, murdered. So I met the Everards and many other families. It's time, you know, as was in the introduction. All the studies are there the information is there now it's time for the met and other police forces to use the expertise of this coalition to help them repair the damage to minoritized groups One of the things that is an example of what's needed in

London is Olivia Cordell's tragic death and the way the community came together and exposed and gave the information to the police. Now, the police asked for their help, and in doing so, they guaranteed them safety. And I think that's the kind of relationship we need to build with our communities, that community policing happens again, and that the expertise of the Alliance here don't see them as fly in the ointment,

but see them as part of the cure. Yesterday, you will have seen, Mina, that the Met was launching its response to the Casey report. It talked about a new policing plan, talking about radically transforming the organisation, in fact, dubbing it by some, and you met Sir Mark Rowley. He was on the Today programme yesterday. And they say, over the past 12 months,

that they've charged over 500 more rape and sexual offences, that the backlog of online child abuse cases has been cleared, that antisocial behaviour is down, that public protection is strengthened, training has been overhauled. How do you hear when you hear some of what has been said by the Met? And do you think that any of those statements can help restore public trust, which is what you are trying to do? Of course, I welcome and everyone should welcome these strides forward. However, unless it impacts communities and people see the change and know the change,

people coming out with an experience of going to the police and how they've been treated by the police is what is going to change attitudes. And the key factor is accepting the term of institutional racism. It is so important. It is not about throwing your colleagues under the bus or suggesting that everybody in the police force is racist. What you are saying is, I now see and understand your lived experience, and this is generational. So this hasn't happened overnight.

You know, going back to the wind rush and looking at those incidences with wind rush which you know just happened fairly recently people talk and people feel afraid and that's not what we want from our police force they're there to serve us they make an oath that they will treat every single human being with respect and that's what's needed that kind of um stop and search where they are just rude and aggressive and trying to inflame the people that they're speaking to. Just a little bit of respect would be great because decent families who have young teenage sons, they are teaching them. They say, don't walk with more than two people.

When they talk to you, don't be rude. Don't look them in the face. I mean, this is ridiculous. It's like a war zone. you don't be rude don't look them in the face i mean this is ridiculous it's like a war zone that shouldn't be the case so we need um a collaboration so i'm wondering about that collaboration forgive me for stepping on you there mina but um because i know you're having conversations with sir mark uh roly And do you say this to him? Because when the Baroness Casey review of the Met came out,

it said it was institutionally racist as well as misogynistic and homophobic. But Mr Rowley pushed back on that, saying it was organisational, not institutional. And you've just said that matters so much. Have you been able to put across how you feel?

Can you get him perhaps to change his characterisation of it if it matters so much? It's really interesting. I've had conversations with him and you'll know that I did the Radio 4 debate with him. He was one of the people and Baroness Casey was on that panel as well and my my opinion is this people can change their mind i'm i was under the impression that

someone higher not the mayor had said don't take on that term uh i i believe he's been told that he must not accept that term. And I could be completely wrong. But I also know that people can change their mind. And so I keep leaving that door open and saying to him, you know, you can change your mind. You can, you know, you have said what you've taken this position now but you can change your mind and he said to me I know you will you will be disappointed that I haven't accepted that so I believe I'm waiting for him to have a god moment where he has a eureka moment and thinks, I get it. And as I say often, my favourite term from the film Avatar is, I see you. And I think if someone like him can say, I accept that we have institutional racism, what he's saying isn't that everybody in the Met is racist.

He's saying, I can now see your world through your eyes. And that would really build so much, you know, broken walls. It'd be fabulous. Well, we shall leave the door open for Sir Mark Rowley, of course, on this programme on Woman's Hour to respond to you as well, Mina. A couple of things. You have relatives in the force yourself, I understand. I do. Are they confident it can change in the way that you want it if they are on board with wanting what you want?

Well, to begin with, when the girls were murdered and the selfies, they reflected on whether they wanted to be part of an institution like that and I said no the good people have to stay and interestingly one of them one of their superintendents is attending this conference and she said to me she gave me his name and she said to me he is one of the good ones. And when I needed help to have leave during 2021, he was very supportive. And so I said, well, this is what we need. We need to encourage all the good police out there, because, you know, when you are the good people in an institution that's being scrutinized you carry the burden you are the ones that you know you overcompensate and that shouldn't be the case so in the same way if we're going to criticize the police we also need to speak up

about the good work that they do and i i myself have had the experience of the best of policing and the worst. So I won't bash the police because I don't believe it's all of them. Let us turn, before I let you go, Mina, to just what got you involved in all of this. What do you think your two daughters would think if they could see you now and your activism? I think they'd be looking down saying go mum go for it that's that's what they'd be doing it's a lovely thought i'll let

you get back to your work minas maulman thank you and just let our listeners know we did ask assistant commissioner louisa rolf who's at the launch to come onto the programme, but we were told that she could not make herself available. Now, some of you have been getting in touch. The text number is 84844 at BBC Women's Hour on social media. About fubbing. Are you guilty of it? Perhaps you're on the receiving end of it. The phone snub.

Being snubbed while somebody looks at their phone instead of looking at you. Here's one from Patricia. Any conversation with anyone is instantly recognised as being unimportant if one looks at their phone. Well, there's new research from Turkish scientists into the effects on married couples. It's found that couples who regularly fub each other have lower marriage satisfaction.

Clare Cohn is a journalist and author of BFF, The Truth About Female Friendship, and joins us now. Claire, are you guilty? Good morning. Yes, I am a fubber, although I might not have known the word until this morning. But I think we absolutely all know what's being talked about here. We all do it, don't we? And I think the worst thing is we judge other people for doing it, even though we're doing it ourselves. Do you feel bad while you're doing it? Do you feel guilty about doing it? Or do you do it unashamedly? No, I do feel guilty. I do feel guilty. But, you know, I was thinking about this this morning. You know, you might go out for a meal and you see a couple sat next to you on the

table next to you and they're both on their phones and they're not talking, you know, and I'll turn to my husband and I'll say something like, oh, I hope we're never like that. And then you go home and you sit on the sofa and you do exactly the same thing. And yes, I do feel guilty about it. And I can absolutely understand this research that says it's affecting our intimacy and our connection with each other. Because it's sort of ironic, really, isn't it? You know, we think by being on our phones, by being on social media, by messaging our friends and family, we are creating connections with other people.

And yet we are so often sat next to the person, whether that's a romantic partner or a friend who matters to us most and ignoring them. And I think your caller Louisa is so right. You know, you can be having a conversation with someone and then if you just glance down at your phone, it instantly eradicates how important that conversation might be.

Do you try and stop yourself from doing it or do you find it just a habit that's really hard to break? I do try and stop myself and I do try and stop my husband, I should say. He's as bad for it as I am. And I it doesn't so much cause conflict between us, but I will do that thing where I say, oh, what are you looking at? And you sort of start to feel a bit like the school teacher saying, oh, do you want to share the joke with the rest of the class? And it all becomes a little bit passive aggressive. I do try and stop myself. In fact, we have stopped taking phones into the bedroom. Okay, because this was what I was about to get to, Claire, like whether there should be or do couples impose boundaries of where that phone can and can't be used. Because just thinking back to your,

and I'll come to the bedroom in a minute, but coming back to your original example, which is in the restaurant, oh, you know, it almost seems worse to do it in a public place than it does in a private place like on the sofa. Yes, I think so. And I think it is about boundaries and I think it's about managing expectations. So I was out for lunch with a friend last week and I really needed to do a couple of quick work things while we were at lunch. I needed to send one email and I needed

to post something on Instagram. So I said to her straight away, I'm really sorry I need to do this. It's going to take me two to three minutes. Just bear with me. So immediately I'd managed her expectations. I'd apologised. I'd been polite and she was completely fine. And we just don't do that with our partners in the same way, I don't think. I wonder, though, is perhaps at the root of it, because that's really interesting, the couple of examples you give there, that we're just trying to do too much, like even that I have to post this thing on Instagram which you know that just wouldn't have been a sentence 10 years ago. Yes you're right I mean nobody ever has to post something on social media do they? But it could be part of your job you know or part of whatever you're earning potential

the reason you're able to go out for the nice lunch might be because you are posting on Instagram to take your part. But do you think, because we're joking about it and whatnot, but do you think that it can have serious ramifications on the intimacy of a partnership? Yes, I do. And actually, one of the things that really jumped out to me about some of the research that's been done around this is how it can make one partner feel excluded. And I think that's really true. And the studies then say that can lead to less intimacy and less satisfaction in your relationship. And I think that's really true because, you know, for instance, if you're sat together on the sofa and you're watching a sitcom and it makes you both laugh, you're laughing together. And you might catch each other's eye and, you know, touch each other's arm and you're rolling around on the sofa having fun if somebody is looking at their phone and your your husband's laughing at a video and you've no idea what they're laughing at you can actually feel really cut out really excluded and I think

that actually can be quite damaging and I think the other point to make although I should caveat this isn't the case for me but I can imagine how it could make you feel quite suspicious of what your partner might say. You know, once upon a time, you might have suspected your partner was having an affair if they were on their phone all the time. But because we're doing it constantly now, how would you ever know? I can really imagine it could cause some suspicion and conflict there. Let's go to the bedroom without getting too intimate. You guys have decided to leave the phone outside the bedroom.

How is that working? Have you got an alarm clock or do you set the alarm and have to get up and turn it off? Or maybe you don't use your phone for an alarm. I don't know. Yes. So we do have an alarm clock, but we also have a cat who wakes us up terrifyingly early every morning. So that's one. But I have to say it's worked really well. You know, we plug them in the kitchen at night. We shut the door. We go into the bedroom. And I will say, you know, we're not sat next to each other, you know, propped up on our pillows, on our phones, not speaking. As I know, friends of mine have told me that they end up doing at the end of the day. You know, we actually have a chat at the end of the day and we actually have a chat in the morning. And that shouldn't be revolutionary, but it actually feels as though it is.

We have, I want to read a message. This is an email that came in. My daughter's dad is a fubber. He's addicted to his phone and although he'd deny it, I was so annoyed by him always staring at it and leaving me to do

most of the household labour that when she was six months old, I picked up his phone from under his nose, threw it across the room and broke it. Nine years on and our relationship is over.

We've sold our house and our daughter and I are moving to a new home for this, for this and other similar reasons. Even when she says daddy's always looking at his phone and he ignores her in favour of his phone, even if she tries to get his attention. Fubbing is constantly sending the message to the people you love that they don't matter to you as much as the strangers in the phone. Yes, I think that's absolutely right. God, I think we can all relate to that, can't we? I

mean, I certainly hope my husband doesn't mind me saying felt like picking up his phone and dropping it down the loo once or twice. It absolutely, absolutely sends that message that you, the person in front of you is not important to you. And that's something we all need to address. We started the conversation, Clare, Clare Cohn, neither of us looked at our phone during the entirety of our conversation. We're throwing it out, 84844 if you want to respond to our fubbing conversation. Clare, thanks so much. Now, I have a treat for you. Georgina Onora made her professional debut in the National Theatre's

Dick Whittington before appearing as the alternate Cinderella in Andrew Lloyd Webber's new musical of the same name in the West End. Now she is taking on the role of Dorothy in a new production of The Wizard of Oz, currently on stage at the London Palladium. And I had the joy of going to see you last Sunday. This morning, she joins me in the Woman's Hour studio and will be singing over the rainbow.

Oh, I came in for the sound check. It's amazing. And is accompanied by George Dyer on our grand piano. Welcome, Georgina. Thank you so much for having me. It's such an honour. So great to have you here. So you just graduated in 2020 from drama school. You won an Andrew Lloyd Webber Foundation scholarship and you're currently the leading lady, as I mentioned, at the Palladium. How does it feel these past few years? How does it feel? It's crazy. It's a whirlwind. I mean, leaving school in 2020, it was a year. It was an interesting year to leave. The industry was really on its knees when I left.

So every time we work now, it just feels like such a blessing that theatre's back up and running. And it was packed the other night. Oh my gosh, cheek by jowl. The audiences love it every night. It's such a family show. I think the way we've done it is that we really want the kids to have the best time,

but also the adults to also love the story. And they did. It's a lot of laughter from the moment you go in, but people with such excitement as well, as I can tell you, as an audience member. But tell me also about Dorothy. Most people know The Wizard of Oz, I think, but how you see her role and you playing it. Yeah, I think for me, I think she is just so headstrong. And I really wanted to play into the fact that she doesn't know quite what she wants, but she knows she wants to go for it.

And I think I've tried to make her really independent and really forward thinking and I think even her leading like all the men through this story I think is a testament in itself. I love that and as I was watching it I was kind of watching it with fresh eyes and she is really this young girl who is leading these older men and it's a different model of leadership, perhaps to the traditionally male way of leading people. Yeah, I think she's doing it with such compassion, like she's guiding them and helping them to really understand themselves. And I think that's what our whole story is about. Like we all go on such an emotional journey. And we all discover things. But I think she really is leading the way in that discovery.

I was reading actually this morning, I didn't know this, but that The Wizard of Oz was one of the earliest truly feminist American children's books. So you have this very active protagonist, but you've also got the female Glinda, the good witch. Yes. And of course, the wicked witch, another female protagonist. How much fun is it to be in The Wizard of Oz? It looks like great fun from my perspective.

Oh God, it's crazy. It's unbelievable. It's actually so fun. I mean, Glinda and our Wicked Witch, they come in on these crazy quad bikes. We really played into how wild and silly our Oz can be. It's so colourful. As you remember, it's crazy colours, crazy, crazy set pieces. And I kind of jumped forward and back there. But getting that role of Dorothy just a few years after, of course, that, I don't know what we call it, monumental historic year of 2020.

Can you believe how far you've come? No, it feels like such a blessing. Honestly, I think every day working in this industry is a blessing because it is so difficult. Forgetting COVID, it's actually a difficult industry no matter what. So getting to work and doing these roles like Dorothy is a dream role for me and it always has been. So it's been amazing to get to actually bring it to life. My mum cried her eyes out when I told her. So I feel really lucky every day. Because it's something of course, that we know for decades. But you do have Andrew Lloyd Webber very much backing you.

Yeah, he really has supported me throughout my whole career. It feels like a full circle to get to play this part for him when he supported me at drama school. It really feels like such a full circle moment. With Dorothy, we often think of Toto as well. And I was surprised to really see Toto as a real dog Ben is so unbelievable that you almost don't see him anymore it is incredible I don't know if we can get it across to our listeners but the mannerisms of the it's so real life isn't it completely the little nod of the head the tiny wag of the tail the little barks it's so intricate it really is Ben is such a master at what he does that honestly at the start of the tail the little barks it's so intricate it really is Ben is such a master

at what he does that honestly at the start of the show you notice and a minute in you've forgotten you've forgotten yes and then

and you don't see Ben after a while it's very interesting the way the brain works sorry Ben but it's just because your work is so good but what are

the biggest challenges playing Dorothy before when we were doing the sound check, I was getting some water, you were getting some tea, looking for a bit of honey. What about your glorious voice? How do you take care of it? I mean, the music is so, so gorgeous and you really want to do it justice every night. So I just really take care of myself.

I've got my Manuka honey next to me, my hot water. You've just got to really rest. Eight shows a week can be really intense. So you just got to really look after yourself. And how do you bring it to that level eight times a week? I don't know. I think the audience really feeds us. I mean, the crowd are so excited to watch this. And we meet people at stage door every night who are crying or so ecstatic to watch The Wizard of Oz. So really, you get the energy from them every night. And of course you have your co-stars.

We were talking about the good and the bad witches, which you've got. Also the Scarecrow, the Tin Man and the Lion. I love them so much. We're literally best friends. So that's Luke Gaunt, Ashley Banjo and Jason Manford. I'm wondering how it feels as well to be in the middle

of all that madness for want of a better word. It's so chaotic and really otherworldly because you are moving with crazy pictures. The visuals are intense. We feel like we're in the middle

of a tornado as well as we move from Kansas to Oz. What does that feel like every time you're doing that with people? Yeah, I think the story is crazy and the colors are so otherworldly. But I think the central story is actually quite black and white. I think it's just a journey for all these people trying to learn about themselves. And it's just this young woman discovering herself and I think once we really like tap into the center of the story you just you're just on it and then before you know it the show's over and then you do it again tomorrow it is that isn't it it's this traditional story but with a fresh take you are a young black woman that is taking on the role of Dorothy and what

does that mean to you it means so much I think um it's a role I've always wanted to play and I never thought I'd get the opportunity to play it um but her story I don't know I think um years ago maybe you might not have imagined Dorothy to be a young black woman but I think now our industry is really open to exploring and ultimately Dorothy is just determined women like so however she looks wherever wherever she appears, that's, that is what she is. And I think it feels amazing to get to tell that story as myself and meet people at stage door who just have never seen anyone like me playing this role. Well, you do it wonderfully. It's on for another 10 weeks. It's finishing the 3rd of September. Where are you going next? Where will I see you next? Gosh, who knows? Exciting. I think I actually have no clue, which is really exciting.

I have a feeling you will know definitely by September 2nd, if not before. Well, it is time for your special performance. I'm already so excited to hear it again. Georgina, take a sip of that Manuka honey and then head over to the microphone. So this is Georgina Onora, accompanied by George Dyer, on the piano and singing Over the Rainbow. Due to copyright reasons, the performance has been removed. Wow. Georgina Onora and George Dyer accompanying her on grand piano. And as I mentioned, The Wizard of Oz is on at the London Palladium until the 3rd of September. Thanks to you both. Now, I want to move on next on Woman's Hour

to a listener who we are calling Beth, who emailed Woman's Hour to say that since her divorce in the family court, she has hardly seen her child. She feels that this is because of the influence of her former husband and is, in her view, a form of abuse. But she doesn't see any support or recognition of this within the law. She's critical of the way the family court system works and feels that things need to change for

mothers like herself. These are Beth's words, voiced by an actor. I haven't seen or had contact with my son in over four years, he was 14 years old and it's been the most devastating and crushing experience of my life I would love to see him but I feel that his father has turned him against me during my marriage of 22 years my husband tried to isolate me from my own family and especially from my mum. You know your mum prefers your sister, he'd say, or your mum doesn't care about you. I hear that enough times and you start to believe it. My husband has now done the same thing to me and my own son. I'd always wanted to be a mum and I changed my career so that I could work from home

and have school holidays off. When my son was little we'd go to the park, the zoo, I took him to piano lessons, I read to him every night. We were so close but as he got older my husband started to edge me out. From the age of about eight my husband decided that he would read the bedtime story and it was a lovely connection that I lost. My husband would often put me down in front of my son. When we recreated a meal that my son had made at school, my husband came in and said, What, could your mum not be bothered to cook?

And she made you do that. Shocking. So the alienation wasn't something that happened overnight. It was little put-downs, day after day, month after month, year after year, doing things that pushed me out of my son's life. Telling him I didn't care about him, drip, drip over the years. It is difficult to explain, it was so subtle. But it ramped up to another level and my husband knew I was divorcing him. My husband refused to work, so he needed me for money.

He told me that if I didn't go to a solicitor for a divorce then he would give me a relationship with my son. He wanted to control my finances and my life but I did seek the advice of a solicitor. I also went to see a counsellor and she pointed out how coercive and controlling my husband was. I then got help from a domestic abuse charity. When the penny dropped and my husband was. I then got help from a domestic abuse charity. When the penny dropped and my husband understood that I was serious about divorcing him, he changed the locks on our house. He physically threatened me. I had to call the police. My solicitor didn't want me to go back and so I went to stay with a friend. My son stayed in the family home. I went to pick up my son from school, but he screamed at me to go away.

He was terrified. The impact of a lifetime of negative comments about me meant that he knew implicitly that if he had anything to do with me, his dad would be angry. I did see my son a couple of times after that, but both occasions were carefully controlled by his father. When our divorce eventually ended up in court, the process was traumatic. CAFCAS, the court-appointed social workers, said in their report to the court that they had observed examples of alienating behaviours by my husband. The judge said that he could see what was going on here,

but that at 13 years old, they couldn't force a child to see their mother. The judge didn't seem to pay any attention to the substantial documentation of coercive and controlling behaviours that my solicitor had submitted. The final ruling from the judge was that our son should live with both of us and that it was up to us to sort it out. But since then, I haven't seen my son and my husband has refused to communicate anything to me about him. He told me that as I have abandoned them, I have reneged on my duty as a mother. As far as my ex-husband is concerned, he and my son are one. I regularly write, email and send

presents to my son and I repeatedly tell him that I left his father, not him. I go once a month to his local coffee shop, and I've told him in messages that I'll be there if he wants to meet me. To me, it's clear that parental alienation is child abuse, but nobody tackles this. What might have helped is if there'd been a court-appointed therapist, my son and me, someone who would be able to listen to what he was saying and to unpick what was his actual voice versus what was the voice of his father and to identify the level of coercion. Most people know of someone who doesn't see their child and society seems to have accepted that this just happens. This cannot just happen and something needs to be done to address this issue. This is the most traumatic experience of my life and the most effective way

my ex-husband could ever have punished me for divorcing him. The words of a woman we're calling Beth there, a Woman's Hour listener, and we're going to be talking about some of the issues that she raises in a moment. A new report was published yesterday from the Office of the Domestic Abuse Commissioner looking at the family court from the perspective of victims and survivors of domestic abuse. It reveals that over 80% of legal practitioners surveyed, that is the solicitors, the chartered legal executives and barristers involved in working with the family court, felt that the family court is likely to re-traumatise victims and survivors of domestic abuse. The report also provides a position on alienating behaviours, a term sometimes used in court and something that

we'll talk about also in a moment with my guest Nicole Jacobs, the Domestic Abuse Commissioner. Welcome. Thank you. Well, family courts, Nicole, handle the most sensitive information and experiences from within families' lives, sometimes involving very vulnerable children. You've been looking at the private law aspect within family courts. For those who are not familiar with the system,

what sort of cases are we talking about? Well, essentially, these are the cases where parents who have separated and who are unable to reach agreements themselves about arrangements that relate to the children, financial arrangements, have to go to the court essentially to seek a remedy that is ordered by the court. So there's the vast majority of people who are separating often will find more informal ways to make these arrangements. You can imagine that when you layer domestic abuse, it shouldn't surprise any of us that we see high percentages of people within the family, private law family arrangements who will who will have a background of domestic abuse. This is anecdotally, I believe, that you have heard reports from domestic abuse victims talking about their experiences, as you allude to there.

But why is it only anecdotal? Well, it's because proceedings are private. Understandably, this is highly personal information. So since the start of our family court system, the proceedings are in private. So there's no, I mean, with a few exceptions recently, very little journalism, certainly the data coming from the court is very inconsistent. Government ministers and officials will admit that themselves. Certainly, the aspect of going into court and supporting a victim of domestic abuse has been fairly nonexistent until the recent practice direction. So we are inching forward.

But the fact is we have what is I would consider quite substantial anecdotal information, but we don't have the hard data. We don't know, for example, how often people like Beth are experiencing what she described within family court. And we need to know that. You can see how the implications of these decisions literally are life-changing for the adults involved, but for children particularly. We're talking about anecdotally, of course, but what are the experiences? Beth would be one. What else are you hearing? Well, about three years ago, there was a huge initiative and culminating into a report published by government, all recommendations, by the way, accepted by government.

And we call this the Harm Panel Report. within the family courts in relation to domestic abuse, particularly that a pro-contact principle, which is enshrined in law, that judges are obligated to follow. A pro-contact principle meaning? Meaning that you will have a presumption of contact with parents, which of course is a good starting point. But when you think about domestic abuse and the unsafe potential arrangements with a child, this is where we have a significant problem. And this is what we all agreed, meaning absolutely, you know, there were thousands of submissions to this effort, which produced the harm panel report, and the subsequent recommendations,

which government accepted wholeheartedly. But that's three years ago. Exactly. So why hasn't something been done? There have been a few. There's been some progress. Obviously, you know, there's the president of the family court, MOJ, the Ministry of Justice ministers have instituted a few steps, which is really welcome. So for example, we have a prohibition of a ex-partner who would be abusive, cross examining a victim in court, believe it or not, that wasn't, that was happening regularly, and to some degree still is. But it was dealt with

within the Domestic Abuse Act, which of course brought in my role. There's a few things, of course, within those recommendations that have happened. One primary one that I'm most excited about is the piloting in two court areas in North Wales and in Dorset, what we call a Pathfinder Court, which is a less adversarial model, which brings much greater understanding about the context of the family much earlier to parties. And that is what my report yesterday, among other things, was trying to say to government, let's roll this pathfinder approach out faster, more effectively, so that we have less cases where people and families are being torn apart in family court.

And with the Ministry of Justice, you mentioned that ending the ordeal of cross-examination by abusers, they did also say they're expanding eligibility for legal aid, so more survivors are able to access the courts and rolling out evidence by video link, which we've talked about in this programme, to spare families further trauma. But going back to some of the reforms you're talking about, because the listener we were hearing from wanted to highlight that issue of a parent alienating a child from another parent. How much of an issue is this? Is it brought up in court? And are you concerned how it may be used? I'm very concerned how this is used, because again, anecdotally, we hear this as a counter allegation. So let me just back up and

explain. I would love to say to Beth, if she were listening, this, the report that I've published yesterday is meant to address exactly the situation that she's in, which is about understanding what she was essentially describing is being a victim of domestic abuse, that coercion and control post-separation. And I want to point out to everyone, and I try to be very assertive in this report yesterday, we have the Domestic Abuse Act now that defines children as victims in their own right. We have that same Domestic Abuse Act amending our coercion and control legislation to make it applicable to separation abuse. That should matter. That should have mattered in Beth's case when she was before the court. And you can hear in that how badly things were misinterpreted, misunderstood, and how lost that context of domestic abuse got in her case. And so what I want to say to victims of domestic abuse who feel alienated is that that is exactly what I'm trying

to say in this report, that we have to have a greater understanding of domestic abuse and the context of the family early so that what steps are taken by the court subsequently are better understood. And you mentioned the Pathfinder pilots, which the government is running to try and centre the voice of the child in the centre of proceedings. But is that what you'd like to see in other areas that you feel then that the domestic abuse aspect in cases like this could be brought to the fore? Absolutely. I mean, there will be people, there'll be victims of domestic abuse in family court today

that don't have the benefit of having the kind of pathfinder approach, which is everyone, including the judge, understanding the context and voice of the child very early. And what's happening, going back to some of the concern, is that when someone alleges domestic abuse as a harm, which, by the way, is very, very hard, we have to remember sometimes people are approaching the court having never disclosed domestic abuse before. That is a huge issue. And that's therein lies some of the misunderstanding. And then if you have the other party, the ex-partner, alleging parental alienation, imagine if you're the victim. So there's kind of essentially two situations, one where you are the victim like Beth and you are being alienated.

And that, I think, is addressed in some of the recommendations in my report. There's a separate situation where Beth comes to the court, the victim comes to the court, alleges domestic abuse, and then the counter allegation is alienation. And at that stage, the victim of domestic abuse has absolutely nowhere to turn because any concern they state, any time they say, I'm not comfortable with this arrangement, please listen to what my child is saying, they will then be labeled, oh, well, you would say that because you're alienating. Do you see how this gets used and misused in different ways? And I guess what I'm trying to say to court, to the court, to the government is we've found ways around this. We have to sequence the understanding.

We have to bring the understanding forward because what's happening in the court now also is people adjourn. Separate reports are written. Months and months go by, that all comes back to court, then you try to make sense of what essentially is very adversarial, very confused. What the Pathfinder courts are doing is saying, we will put enough effort and resource in to understand this properly from the start. And then we will make sense of any counter allegation. And that would get us, I mean, it doesn't solve absolutely every problem. These are complex issues. It's a complex

system. But this would be a significant step forward and is for victims of domestic abuse. Nicole Jacobs, the Domestic Abuse Commissioner. Thank you so much for spending some time with us here on Woman's Hour. Thank you. A little more from the Ministry of Justice. They do say they've gone further, the government has gone further than ever to tackle domestic abuse and support victims and they say their changes have hugely bolstered protection for the most

vulnerable but that they're always looking to find a way to make the justice system fairer and that they will look closely at the report and respond in due course. Now, what day is it? It is the eve of the Women's World Cup. It kicks off with hosts New Zealand versus Norway at 8am.

England's Lionesses will be looking to repeat the success of last summer when the anthem Sweet Caroline, of course, and Three Lions were blasted through Wembley and beyond as the team lifted the Euros trophy. For this World Cup, there's a new song in town. The track Call Me a Lioness, released today by Hope FC, as we're calling them, featuring Mel C, Self Esteem, Olivia Dean and Al Greenwood from the band The Sports Team on drums. And Al is a Lioness mega fan, is sitting opposite me now. Good morning. Morning. How are you doing? So how did the project begin? Welcome.

So the project began, I guess, in earnest, quite fittingly, the day of the Euros final last year. I was lucky enough to be at Wembley, but Glenn Roberts, the incredible producer, songwriter, was sat at home. And I think the final words that Gabby Logan even uttered, and I'll butcher them now, they're along the lines of, the Lionesses brought it home and it's up to us to ensure that it stays here. You think it's all over, but it's only just begun.

And Glenn was sat at home and thought, well, you know, what does this mean? This is such a moment. And we all felt that. I think across the country there was a sense that this was a real moment. And culturally there was this void, you know, and the women's football community were very quick to fill it. There's been so much incredible sort of meme culture, arts, you know, everything, a proliferation of different incredible and engaging kind of content that's occurred since then.

But what we've really seen a void of is music, I think. And, you know, there's 30 years of her is all we had to sing to. So Glenn rang Olivia Dean, the incredible songwriter. Who was here last week. Yeah, who's just released an amazing album herself. And they got to work. Well, shall we listen to a little for our listeners? We've kept them waiting.

La, la, la, la, la. We're bringing it home again. La, la, la, la, la. La, la, la, la, la. We're bringing it home again. La, la, la, la, la. La, la, la, la. If you think we're nodding along in the studio, yes, we are. We can only play 30 seconds for rights reasons, but you can hear the whole thing online. Al, do you think this is going to replace Sweet Caroline and Three Lions?

I don't think anything could replace those songs. I think it offers a much-needed additional anthem and one that's specifically for the Lionesses. So what are you going to do now over the next few weeks? What's the plan? The plan is to hunker down every single day and watch the games, frankly. Where did your love of football begin? So I grew up in Leeds in the north of England and was the daughter of a lifelong Man United season ticket holder. That's where my love for the game began and I'd go along to all the games with my dad

luckily and his mates but it was always within the kind of context and language lens of men that was my experience of the game and I was a kind of avid and obsessive player but when I got to high school just felt like that didn't fit anymore I didn't have the infrastructure or confidence to keep playing and I think that sadly is true for so many girls of my generation and even today the dropout rates are something like you're twice as likely at 14 to drop out of sport as a girl and so I think what the Lionesses started last summer is so so for me exciting and important and I think maps the Lionesses started last summer is so, so, for me, exciting and important. And I think maps onto so much more of the way that girls and women interact in society and view their participation, their own sense of self and their perception of the boundaries of what they can do.

Because you're also in another male world just in our last 30 seconds, the drummer, as we mentioned on Call Me A Lioness. How has it been being a female drummer? Yeah, I mean, I think I'm lucky enough that I'm in a band of incredible allies and men who push me forwards. But in and of itself, the space is, yeah, it's not very inclusive or diverse. And you're constantly having to kind of, I guess, justify your own existence there. Well, you're doing it with the song. How far do you think the Lionesses will go? I'm backing them to go all the way. I can't say anything else. There's been a shaky pre-tournament warm-up,

but I mean, I think the opening game against Haiti should enable some goals. Call Me A Lioness, released today, is raising money for women's football charities, including Football Beyond Borders, Street Soccer, Girls United and Manchester Laces. Al Greenwood, thank you so much. More music tomorrow. Join Anita

when she's got Roisin Murphy on the show. Indeed. Thanks for all your messages. I will see you same time, same place next Monday. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello Woman's Hour listeners. I'm Dr Michael Mosley

and in my new BBC Radio 4 podcast, Stay Young, I'm investigating some simple, scientifically proven things you can do to rejuvenate yourself from the inside out. Which will you try? Maybe a slice of mango to reduce your wrinkles. Mmm, delicious. Or learning something new to stay sharp. Hi, OK. Mmm, delicious. Or learning something new to stay sharp. Hi, OK.

Hi, OK. How about lifting some weights to protect your muscles against the ravages of time? That was quite tough. To hear all about how to stay young, subscribe to the podcast

on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.