Woman's Hour - Policing & domestic abuse, Breastfeeding, Football, The business of porn

Episode Date: July 4, 2022

A joint investigation by The College of Policing and Fire & Rescue Service and the Independent Office for Police Conduct has found that there are ‘systemic deficiencies’ in the way some police forces deal with allegations of domestic abuse against their own officers. We discuss with Deputy Chief Constable Maggie Blythe, National Police Lead for Violence Against Women and Girls; David Tucker, Head of Crime and Criminal Justice, College of Policing and Nogah Ofer from the CWJ. It's a big year for women's football and the Women's Euros begin on Wednesday but women have long been playing the beautiful game. An exhibition at Brighton Museum called Goal Power! Women's Football 1894-2022 features the stories of veteran players and Charlotte Petts asked them for their memories.A new study has shown that children who are born at or just before the weekend to disadvantaged mothers are less likely to be breastfed, due to poorer breastfeeding support services in hospitals at weekends. Co-author of the study, Professor Emla Fitzsimons from the UCL Centre for Longitudinal Studies and Clare Livingstone, professional policy adviser and lead on infant feeding for the Royal College of Midwives join Emma.It's probably no surprise to hear that porn is a multi-billion dollar business and a huge monopoliser of the internet. A new podcast series, Hot Money by Financial Times reporters Patricia Nilsson and Alex Barker explores how the business of online porn works and finds out who is actually in control. Patricia Nilsson joins Emma.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Lucinda Montefiore

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. I hope a good weekend was had or some sort of weekend certainly by you and yours. Now, a big week for women's football. On Wednesday, the Women's Euros will begin and the tournament is happening in England. Record attendance in stadiums is expected, as are high TV viewing figures, some putting at 250 million viewers over 25 days across broadcast.

The Lionesses, as they have become known, are opening proceedings against Austria at Old Trafford at 8 o'clock on Wednesday evening. The Netherlands are the current holders, having won on home soil in 2017 before the pandemic delayed this tournament. All 31 games will be live on the BBC, and Spain, England and Sweden are among most people's favourites. To date, 43% of seats priced between £5 and £50 have been bought by women. 43%. It is a big number and a difference. And I wanted to ask, how engaged are you? Perhaps you don't

normally care for football and maybe the women's Euros and the women's game has got you there. Or are you already a football supporter and you are now sharing the love and caring about the women's game? Maybe you've always cared about the women's game. Are you a new fan? What are your hopes, your expectations? What are you hoping that may also change and continue to change around the perception of women and sports and how seriously that is taken with a big week ahead,

as I say, for the women's game, for women's football. On Wednesday, it all kicks off. How are you feeling about it? What still needs to change? Perhaps you play at a grassroots level, I should say. Glass ceilings as well. You know, perhaps this isn't your game. Perhaps it's another game.

Maybe it's rugby. Maybe it's something else. But what still needs to shift when it comes to women's sport and what has changed? I mean, a massive change just when I was looking over this this morning is, of course, the fact that our players, certainly the Lionesses I should talk for, didn't used to be able to do this full time. They had to keep down all sorts of other jobs until relatively recently. Now they are able to play full time and train full time. A big change. Audiences of 250 million for the women's game over 25 days.

A big change. The fact that 43% of seats also being bought by women. I don't know if that's a change in the women's game, but it's certainly a striking statistic. And I wanted to share it with you this morning. Tell me where you are with this. And even if you care, not a jot for football, perhaps there's a reaction from

you as a woman's hour listener to this 84844 is the number you need to text me here at woman's hour on social media or at bbc woman's hour or you can always email me through the woman's hour website and i should say text will be charged at your standard message rate also on today's program we'll be telling you about the result of a super complaint or certainly one part of it against the police and what it says about police culture we'll bring you the findings it's of course a very will be telling you about the result of a super complaint, or certainly one part of it, against the police and what it says about police culture. We'll bring you the findings. It's, of course, a very crucial moment to hear such things.

And the business of online porn. One woman has been trying to understand who runs these incredibly popular websites and how. All that to come. But the MP Chris Pinscher has been suspended from the Conservative Party after allegations of groping two men emerged. to come. But the MP Chris Pinscher has been suspended from the Conservative Party after allegations of groping two men emerged. He now sits as an independent in the House of Commons, but is still an MP. The Prime Minister is now under mounting pressure to reveal what he knew

about previous allegations of inappropriate behaviour concerning Chris Pinscher when he was appointed Deputy Chief Whip. Chris Pincher resigned that role, which was to uphold discipline among fellow Conservative MPs last week, telling the Prime Minister he had drunk far too much. He denies further allegations that you may have read about and have emerged in the papers over the weekend. As well as this individual case, it has also been reported that 56 MPs are currently facing allegations of sexual misconduct. And of course, this comes after a series of by-elections and a slew of scandals. The question then being, as part of this, why in 2022 are male politicians, certainly the ones we know the names of, being accused of behaving in this way, allegedly abusing their power. The chair of the Women and Equalities Committee,

Conservative MP Caroline Noakes, joined me just before I came on air and I asked her what concerns her about this and other recent allegations of sexual abuse and misconduct, particularly, of course, in the Conservative Party, the party of government. What worries me is that this isn't really about sex, it's about power. It's absolutely about people who are in positions of influence using that against others. And that's what we have to address. The need desperately to have a very clear cut code of conduct set of procedures that instantly get followed when an allegation is made. And that's currently not in place. And I have to say there seems to be some resistance to having some sort of code of conduct. Because I think also it's worth taking a step back to remind ourselves that 56 MPs face sexual misconduct

claims. That was the number in April reported by the Sunday Times, which again, you're talking about processes there. That is very important. But how are people meant to process that? Well, I think the first thing I have to say on that is certainly the Standards Committee in Parliament and the Independent Complaints and Credences Scheme have pushed back against that number of 56. Now, I have no particular knowledge as to how many people might or might not be being investigated, but have been categorically told

that it's not 56. But the stark reality is, is that one case is too many. And we need to make sure that the House of Commons, the Houses of Parliament, actually, because I'm not sure that the House of Lords is immune to this sort of issue, is run professionally. That the parties, the individual political parties, have a close grip on codes of conduct. And I was told last week, well, look, we have the Nolan principles of public life. And we do. But actually, I think that we need something far more explicit and clear so that all members of Parliament can understand that there will be stringent action taken against them if they seek to use their power or influence in a way which makes others feel uncomfortable. How concerned are you that there are allegations that the Prime Minister knew of the allegations and rumours surrounding Chris Pinscher and still appointed him into a position which, if you're not familiar with parliamentary parlance, as as a role in the Whip's office, which effectively polices the behaviour of MPs?

Well, it does. And it also acts as the human resources function of the individual political parties. And I've had it put to me that Chris Pynchon was the welfare whip. Now, that wasn't a term that I was familiar with. He certainly doesn't consult me on anything at all. And so I just don't know what he knew. And I think it's for others who are far closer to him than I am to comment on that. Well, it's been commented on this morning by sources in Westminster that only junior ministers are being put forward. Cabinet ministers not available, secretaries of state not available to come on the radio. Prime ministers certainly not doing so at the moment to comment on this. So it's very hard as a journalist this morning, it seems, to get those answers.

Well, look, and I understand your concern about that because I think what we need above everything else, and it's written there in the Nolan principles, is we need openness. And so we need people to identify who knew what and when, and to understand what processes there were in place to safeguard against this sort of eventuality. Yes. And again, just to say that pressure is also, as one may imagine, but also coming from the Labour benches, the Labour chairwoman, Annalise Dodds, who's also Shadow Women and Equalities Minister, has written to the prime minister seeking details on what number 10 knew of the claims.

As she puts it, only Boris Johnson could have looked at this guy's record and thought he deserves a promotion. A question about, you know, a lot of women will be relating to those who have accused Chris Pincher. They will be able to relate. A lot of men will be as well, but a lot of women will have had the experience of being groped. I know these are allegations. This is what's on the table at the moment, what's being discussed. Do you think we take allegations of male abuse

as seriously as some have started to learn to take women's? Because we certainly aren't there with women yet. I think that's absolutely a fair point to make. We're not yet there with women. And too often cases of harassment and abuse against young men are ignored and treated as if they are somehow less important, less significant than harassment against women. Now, look, that's absolutely wrong. I'm very conscious that I'm chair of the Equalities Committee and gender and sexuality are protected characteristics. And it's really important that we recognise that young men, whether gay or not, can fall victim to this sort of predatory behaviour that we're talking about this morning. So right now, there's a way to go for women and you would argue there's a way to go for men as well in terms of how serious this is taken and also in a place where the rules, the laws are set.

I think there is much further to go with men. And it's absolutely imperative that we have a zero tolerance approach to sexual harassment and abuse, whoever it's perpetrated by and whoever it's perpetrated against. And I just don't feel that we are there yet in Parliament. And I think that this is a job, as I've been calling for for quite some time, a code of conduct for the party whips, for them to come together and work cross-party, because it's not exclusively a problem in the Conservative Party. But make sure that we're stamping out this sort of behaviour and the sort of individuals who are perpetrating it. Yes, you say that about the Conservative Party, of course, and you know, the political parties we have reflect the society that we have. And I take all those points. But I just wonder, what was your personal reaction as chair of the Women and Equalities Committee when

you heard about these allegations with Chris Pinscher and him resigning at the end of last week? Because if you do look at the end of last week? Because if you do look at the Conservative Party specifically, you could be forgiven. I mean, I think Politico put it out at the end of last week on Friday, three months, five scandals. And, you know, concerns about Tory sleaze in particular. What was your response as a member of the Conservative Party?

Another scandal. We've, of course, had an MP watching porn in Parliament. Do you know that the brutally honest answer is that I put my head in my hands in absolute despair, that we've not learnt lessons, that we've not acted quickly to address this sort of behaviour. And I'm the first to say that in the eye of the storm, in the middle of a scandal, is perhaps not the right time to change procedures. and you should always look at codes of conduct and that sort of measure it dispassionately in the cold light of day so you can take the personalities away from i think that's imperatively uh really important that we we don't look at this through the prism of individual cases but more generally wider and think of all of the uh all of the examples of harassment and abuse that could occur and make

sure that we put in place a robust code of conduct that addresses all of them so people know know how they should behave and know what the sanctions will be if they uh if they cross those lines and i think that's what we're lacking at the moment is a clear framework so that when an incident happens when somebody comes forward and reports something like this, that there is an instant sort of chain of actions that happen. And that's what's lacking at the moment. And that's why you have the person who came forward in this case saying that they were shell-shocked that there wasn't swifter and more robust action. Should Chris Pinscher still be an MP? Well, look, he has a mandate from the people of his constituency. And to be quite frank, I think it is for them to decide. But should that be put to the test? We have had a few by-elections recently.

We have indeed had a number of by-elections recently. I understand that this is now in front of the independent complaints and grievances process, and that will give us an outcome. And I think it's important that that investigation goes ahead. Caroline Noakes, the Chair of the Women and Equalities Committee and Conservative MP. Now you have been getting in touch during that, in response to that, but also with messages responding to my question around women's sports, specifically women's Euros beginning with England on Wednesday, with England being the host, but also taking part in that first opening match. We've got England taking that up against Austria at Old Trafford at eight o'clock on Wednesday evening.

And I've been asking whether you care. Is that a big deal for you? Record number of spectators in person, but also TV audiences are expected. 2022 looks like it will be a huge year for women's football and matches all being shown on the BBC, I should say, but also greater visibility and awareness across the board. And messages coming in are reflecting this, but also you talking more broadly or taking the opportunity, and I thank you for that, about women's sport and women's participation in all sports

and what still needs to change or what has changed. A message here says, I was never interested in football, but now I have two daughters who both play. I had a terrible job finding somewhere for my eldest to play. She's aged six slash seven when she kept asking around 2010. Things are so much better now. Eldest plays for her university and is joining another women's team.

The youngest still plays for the village where she was born. We've been to three Women's Cup finals and love that it is now on mainstream TV. So different to when my mum was young. She wanted to play, but there was no provision and much more prejudice. She ended up playing hockey instead. We do need to try and keep girls playing through their

teens. That's when they tend to melt away and teams struggle to recruit. I wish I had learned to play when I was young, says Jill. Three generations there being reflected of how things have changed. Susan says we have tickets for the final of the Women's Euros, having really enjoyed the Women's World Cup in France

a few years ago. Hashtag lionesses. Well, there's an exhibition called Goal Power now on at Brighton Museum and it points out that girls and women have long played football and loved it. Charlotte Pett spoke to Janet Gilbert who played for the General Post Office in Brighton and Angie Banks went on to become semi-pro

for Arsenal and got 18 caps for England. Excuse me. Jo Davis played as a goalie in the early 70s and first you'll hear from Alison and Chris who started playing in the late 60s I'm Alison Poore, now Alison Penn and I started playing football when I was 17 I'm Chris Harding, now Wickham

I joined in 1967. I played centre forward and goalkeeper. I scored 75 goals in one season, which was a record. I was a defender as well. I played centre half for the same reason as Chris. I could head the ball in those days, but could also pass. We used to play at school, you know, in playtime and stuff. So we've always been sporty. It's just that nobody took any notice of women playing, did they, in those days? No.

So we were quite happy to do that and be like the boys. And we had a lot of fun. A hell of a lot of fun. Yeah, so what are some of your memories from playing at that time? Changing rooms. There were sheds. No showers. Bucket of water, if you were lucky. And going home in your muddy kit.

And all your just at half time. Oh yes. I remember Joyce Palmer, who's not here today, she took a free kick, missed it three times, and the referee gave her free kick to the other side and we all fell on the floor laughing and that's always stuck in my mind. We're so pleased to see how women's football has moved on because like myself our grandchildren are involved in sports and we've got granddaughters and they play football football women's football too

they're only seven and nine but they are involved and there are so many more opportunities for them now to join a team there's no stigma about being a girl my name is janet gilbert i started in 72 i started off as centre forward and played about four games as centre forward then played in goal. Must be about 10 years. I have a lot of memories of good laughs playing some games which I never touched the ball because we were winning by a few goals because we were much better than the others. I used to enjoy it when we was playing and it was raining because then you could go out and do some lovely slides.

Sometimes my kit was brown completely with mud. I enjoyed my life playing football, yes. My name is Angie Banks, now known as Angie Taylor Banks. I joined when I was 11 years old. There was no girls' teams around when I was a kid and the caretaker at my junior school actually told us there was a ladies' team in Brighton and he had contacted,

because he'd seen me and a friend of mine playing on the playground, but he contacted them and asked if two young girls could come along and play. As an 11-year-old, I was quite small and skinny and I was playing against these grown women and I absolutely loved it I think we lost our first game

something crazy like 20-0 something crazy my mum and dad at the beginning thought it was just a phase and even though they knew I loved football they just thought oh it's never going to end all this time I'm losing

and didn't actually really get involved until I went to Sweden and started playing at a higher level so I wasn't supported I would say much it was a lot of my own doing going on the bus, you know, at 11 years old, going to Wyvdean Stadium, playing East Brighton Park.

Grew up playing football around boys and always boys. And then growing up playing with ladies, my physical side of the game had to improve instantly. So I think I had the technical talent. I think it just helped me to improve my game by playing with the older ladies as well. I played at a high level for Arsenal in England and I was semi-pro. My escape was football from real life and school and things like that because I was different.

I was a different type of girl. I loved football. And at that time, you were a bit strange if you were sort of young playing football. It wasn't, you know, why are you playing football? You're a girl. You know, that's not the sort of thing. So for me, football and playing alongside people that love the same thing as me was my escape and then when I went to Sweden so normalized because they've been doing it since they were five six years old I felt completely at home didn't feel different and it was just a wonderful wonderful time. My name is Jo Davis I started when I was 15 playing for Shoreham so

did that for about 20 years and then I joined Brighton when we were National League. You know, highlight of my career was playing at the old Goldstone ground, which was, as a Brighton fan, was just the icing on the cake, really. And then I ended up at Whitehawk at the end of my career as a player initially and then as a manager. Absolutely loved it. Loved the journey. I remember once we played up at Pevensey Marshes, which is a really flat, flat open ground.

And we won about, I don't know, 16-0 or something one game. I was absolutely frozen. And when the final whistle went, the girls all ran off into the hut, as it was in those days. And I just stood there because I couldn't actually move. I was like frozen to the spot. having seen what these girls have got now it's just just worlds apart you know we we paid to play we played on muddy pitches I can remember having to shoo sheep off of a pitch when we played over at Horham one time and those days you didn't have mobile phones and

you used to drive in a convoy of about five or six cars and lose half the cars and you know you'd all end up at the game at different times and sometimes a car never arrived and when you look at the facilities just amazing we're you know we were lucky if we had a shower it was a through a bucket of water over you or something and yeah different worlds different worlds and I but I wouldn't have given mine up for anything because it shaped me as a person I think I probably could have ended up in quite a lot of trouble as a kid with all kinds of issues but a school friend introduced me to football and my best friends now are the friends I played football with 40-50 years ago. Oh lovely to hear those memories and also how things have changed by contrast. Tomorrow

I'll be joined by two football mad women who scouted Julie Hemsley, who went on to become the first woman on the FA Council. And you can also hear her story of trailblazing in the women's game. So all of that to come. But your story is also coming in and many of you reflecting on how much things have changed, particularly this one. I'm 77. At my primary school, every Wednesday afternoon, the boys went out on the field for football and we girls had to do needlework indoors.

Another one. I'm 66. I loved football all my life. Played as a young person, born too soon for a career. However, not taken much notice of the women's game. I watched last week. It's so much better than the men's presently.

Looking forward to it now. A lot of you saying how you've converted recently for various reasons. Katie in Bradford, good morning. I'm going to the England game on Wednesday. Good for you. And I'm very excited. I'm going in a group which includes six teenage boys.

They're all very excited to see women play and are growing up in a world where women's football is increasingly taken as seriously as the men's game. It's a very different world that I grew up in where it was unusual that our school had a girls' football team. Thank you for that, Katie. And this is from Mick, who says, I've been watching men's football for 40 years.

I watched my first ladies game during the World Cup 2019. I was amazed at how good they all were, England and USA. It was so entertaining. England was robbed in the semi-final. I started watching the men's season again, and it was so boring. A lot of cheating, fake acting. Women do foul, but they get up again,

not like the men who act as though they've broken a leg. And watching more women's games than men's games, England will bring it home this year. Watch out for Lauren Hemp. That's the Lionel Messi, he says, Mick, in Leicester, of this particular team. I don't usually give a jost about football, but was invited to watch the Women's FA Cup final

by my son's football team, and I fell in love. In the past, when I've been to a men's match, the violence aimed towards me and my friends have made me vow not only to never watch a live game again, nor travel on public transport after a game. The women's FA Cup final at Wembley was a breath of fresh air. Everyone there was there to just enjoy the game. Apart from only one man who became a bit explicit,

it was a fantastic game to watch and I can't wait to go again. That is Miriam who's written it. And so it goes on. This is an interesting one from Lucy. I just wanted to make sure I included this. Football's not my thing, but equestrian sports are. And in British eventing, dressage and show jumping, riders of both sexes compete alongside each other. The commentators and spectators don't mention the competitor's sex as it's irrelevant. This seems to go untouched by the wider press and has always annoyed me. Well, no more, Lucy. You've raised it on Woman's Hour. Thank you very much indeed for those messages. Keep them coming in.

Now, in what's being described as the most thorough report of its kind, published at the end of last week, shows that police forces in England and Wales are responding to allegations of their own officers, effectively their colleagues, committing domestic abuse in a way that is significantly harming the interests of the public. Only 9% of such allegations lead to criminal charges and some accused officers avoid misconduct investigations and were allowed to continue serving. These are the findings of a joint watchdog investigation by the College of Policing, Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire and Rescue Service, and the Independent Office for Police Conduct, which was issued this report in response to a super complaint by the Centre for Women's Justice. Here to discuss, David Tucker,

the Head of Crime and Criminal Justice at the College of Policing, Deputy Chief Constable Maggie Blythe, who you may also remember, she's been on the programme before, as the National Police Lead for Violence Against Women and Girls, and Noga Afur from the Centre for Women's Justice. I think I'm slightly coming back on as an echo on one of your lines. I don't know if the radio is on, but I just ask if it is for it to be turned off. Let me come to you first, Noga. Welcome back to the programme.

Just remind us, why did the centre that you work for, the Centre for Women's Justice, submit this super complaint? Good morning, Emma. We submitted it because we'd received quite a wide range of accounts from women who'd contacted us and also a journalist who was looking into this issue. And there just seemed to be some patterns that were occurring across these various accounts, which were all from women from different parts of the country who didn't know each other. And we felt that there was really some kind of systemic problem going on. So crucially about police officers who, working as police officers, were accused themselves of domestic abuse at home and how that was then

being handled. That's right. I mean, lots of women survivors were contacting us and complaining that they didn't feel that the cases that they had reported to the police were dealt with fairly, or they felt that the fact that the abuser was a police officer was used against them in various ways, or the officer used their powers in various ways. Let me come to you for your response on what's being said in just a moment. But let me ask David Tucker, Head of Crime and Criminal Justice at the College of Policing, one of the three bodies that carried out this investigation. What's the key finding and what's your response to to what's been

concluded so i think there were two things that um the the issues that victims of in reporting and incidents in offences to policing. We found with the perpetrated DA as well, domestic abuse. I'm so sorry. I'm terribly sorry. Sorry, David, I'm not in the business of, I know I do interrupt at times,

but I don't wish to do this. I really can't hear you. And your line is actually the line that's reflecting back on us. My voice is coming back. We're going to, I'm sorry, we're going to have to cut your line for now and try and fix that and come back to you.

So forgive me for that. Also on the line, I hope I can come back to you, David. I do want to hear what you have to say. Maggie Blythe, who's the National Police Lead for Violence Against Women and Girls. Maggie, could you tell us a bit

about what's been found here and your response in that position? Maggie, I'm hoping I have you there. Hello, Maggie. Yes. Morning. Morning. For inviting me on this morning. We accept the findings and support the recommendations in the report and welcome the Centre for Women's Justice bringing this to us. We've been acting very urgently in terms of what it's saying. It's something that we recognised already. And there's a number of steps we've already taken and put in place through the work that I've been leading on over the last few months in tackling violence against women and girls, making it the priority it needs to be within policing. So at the moment, we are expecting all forces, all of our 43 forces,

to be reviewing all current allegations against perpetrators, police perpetrators of domestic abuse and indeed any other VORG offences. And we will be reporting further on that. So we really, really do welcome what has been outlined in the report published. What's your response to only 9% of allegations leading to criminal charges and 75 out of 122 cases investigated didn't even lead to a misconduct investigation? I think it really demonstrates, as the report does, that there are real concerns in how allegations are followed up how they're recorded and most importantly how victims and survivors of domestic abuse

in this case feel their cases are being progressed and that really is what concerns me is how how we support those victims coming forward those police officers coming forward with our allegations to make sure that there are systematic investigations in place across all of our 43 different police forces. Those are all very different organisations, but we need some consistency and national coordination around what we've seen going on. So I recognise your job, and I know you're here in this capacity and you've been on before, and we hope to keep talking. Thank you for coming back, is looking forward

and how things can be changed. But just taking a moment to look at this, you are a deputy chief constable as well. Did you have any idea that if your colleagues, any of your colleagues were accused of domestic violence, that the response could be viewed,

I'm not going to say this is a direct quote from anyone, but could be viewed as covering up for colleagues, not taking it as seriously? It really, really concerns me if any of any allegation against a police officer of domestic abuse is not taken seriously. And I think what this report shows is that across our 43 forces, we don't have a consistent response and that does, yes, really concern me.

And it fits some of the comments and observations that some female police officers and police staff have said to me over the period of time that I've been doing this role and before. And that's why we are doing what we are doing in terms of taking forward a national plan and expecting that national plan to include internal changes to how we deal with domestic abuse and VORG matters within policing. When you say VORG, violence against women and girls for those who aren't up to the speed on that particular acronym. David Tucker, Head of Crime and Criminal Justice at one of the bodies, the watchdogs that did this report college of policing david hello hello i've put 50p in the meter i hope we're back thank you so much that's so much better

please could you say uh share what you were trying to say about the findings here yeah sure so there are lots of similarities between um the experience of domestic abuse victims generally and those that are alleged to be perpetrated by police officers. One of those is around the obstacle to reporting. There are significantly greater obstacles for those cases involving police officers, and that's what we found and that's what we heard from victims. But one of the key issues for us is that cases can be dealt with both as crime and discipline matters, but they should, in fact, be dealt with together in both of those areas.

And where you don't do that, it means that if the criminal investigation fails, quite often we were finding a discipline investigation didn't follow, but there should have been those. And that meant that we weren't using all of the tools available in policing to deal with this type of behaviour. Why do you think it didn't happen? Because I think the rules around investigations are really, really complicated. And one of the things we did find was that actually the decision making there wasn't recorded well enough. So we couldn't see the rationale. So we couldn't understand really why that was why that was happening. And that caused us an enormous amount of concern because it leaves people thinking that, you know, that unsupportable decisions have been made. They may have been

the right decisions, but we couldn't find the evidence in the case files that we looked at, because we feel that that was happening. And that's why we moved on to make these recommendations that Maggie's referring to, that we want the system we think can work, but it needs to be really, really well implemented. And what we're finding is that that's not the case in the forces that we look at. There's lots of chats even about, you know, MPs, about systems and processes. But at the heart of it is why it's happening in the first place. And that will also be, as you say, a key to unlocking it and stopping it, you hope, from happening again. Could you take, have you got an educated guess as to why police officers were not as good at investigating, some police officers were not as good at investigating police officers accused of domestic abuse?

Well, as you know, there are problems with investigating domestic abuse across the board. That needs to improve. What we found was that the issues were the same. We thought that when we looked at this, we would find higher quality investigations because people would be aware of the risks. We didn't find that. And that was a real concern to us. And as I say, we think that the system, as it is, has the potential to deliver the justice that's required, but it has to be applied better. And as you've heard from Maggie, there's a real strength of feeling within policing that we're going to have to make these changes. And as I've said before, this report is the start, not the end. Noga, what's your suspicion as to why this wasn't happening as it should have been?

Well, I mean, again, when these things are not recorded, you don't know for sure but certainly the report does show that some of the reasons that were given for no misconduct investigations were very clearly flawed and I think that the the difficulty with sort of David saying that generally speaking the issues are the same is that yes I mean some of the same problems exist across the board with domestic abuse cases but in some cases we can clearly see that a case has been dealt with differently because the suspect is a police officer. I would easily give you examples of that. So I don't think, you know, I don't think we, you know, it is the case that these cases are just dealt with in the same way as, you know, all domestic abuse cases. And the bigger point, because it's hard to get to that, but thank you

for answering it with what we do know or trying to answer it, is also around if this is the system, the concern about the harming of the interests of the public. Noga, I know that's the sort of, take a step back, the bigger picture that you have been working on. Are your concerns assuaged by the recommendations in this report, which is the beginning, we've just heard, not the end? Well, I mean, we welcome the fact that it shines a light on the problem, but we don't think that the recommendations are really going to eradicate this sort of key problem, which is always a problem with who polices the police. But we really felt that having all these cases dealt

with by an external police force not the police force that employs the suspect would be needed to really have public confidence and the confidence of victims and survivors I mean the report itself acknowledges that you know the risks and connections between officers really can undermine these investigations. And so long as you have the same force employing, even with sort of conflict of interest declarations and so on, there are always going to be difficulties with people knowing each other, informal connections, things happening behind the scenes which are not recorded on the face of the file, you know, that we had a chat in the pub or whatever. So, you know, we really think that the recommendations didn't go far enough. Maggie Blyther, an opportunity to respond to that? Yes, I think the heart of this is it's really hard for women to come forward and disclose

domestic abuse in any case. It's particularly hard as a police officer or a member of police staff when people will know you, you work in a team in a small organisation or a command team that's quite small or even the whole organisation and so it's really important that those systems for recording and for investigating are there. I think on the point about an outside force investigating that's not always a straightforward either because police officers work across boundaries, across organisations, it can be a small service and people still know each other. So I think it is really important we fall back on those systems actually because if women can't trust those systems then that undermines their confidence

in the first place and part of what interested me about this report is the importance of us supporting victims when they come forward and keeping them up to speed with what's happening with an investigation wherever it's going whether it's criminal or whether it's misconduct just keeping them them up to date and making sure our systems support them as well as the perpetrator or any investigation that's ongoing around them. So that I think is about trust and confidence. Yes, and trust and confidence and women's trust and confidence in the police as a whole is a major theme and a major concern at the moment, which is, of course, what your role is focused on. Maggie, I'm sure we'll have you back soon to talk more about progress on that front.

Noga Ofer from the Centre for Women's Justice filed this super complaint in the first place. Thank you to you. And David Tucker, Head of Crime and Criminal Justice at the College of Policing, one of the watchdogs to carry out this particular look and investigation and publish that report at the end of last week.

Now, you getting in touch about the football side of things in terms of the women, but also sport and women generally. There's some amazing messages coming in. A big week, of course, in women's football in particular. Women's Euros starting on Wednesday. England is a host and England kicking off in that. And England, one of the favourites, the Lionesses. And a lot of you roaring already for them.

Sue has written in. I just wanted to make sure I read this out. She says, As a member of the very first England women's football team in 1972, I am blown away by how far the game has come. I'm very happy you're listening. Just wondered if you are aware that although our contribution has recently started to be recognised, those of us who played under the WFA, because the FA, that's the women's side of things, the FA would not recognise us, No, we were not aware of that.

The Scottish team we played in that first match have been awarded caps by the Scottish FA. I played with the best of women. Best of luck to the Lionesses. Sue, the goalkeeper in the 1972 England women's football team. Well, Sue, I always like to follow up on things from any of our listeners, including those with direct experience of what we're talking about.

And I will take that upon myself. The team and I will get to it and see what we can find out about that because that's absolutely fascinating and very interesting and important in the week that we are in. So thank you very much for that message indeed sue listening wherever you are and many messages coming into that i hope to return but let me tell you about a new study which has shown that children who are born at or just before the weekend to disadvantaged mothers are less likely

to be breastfed due to poorer breastfeeding support services in hospitals at weekends. Co-author of the study Professor Emla Fitzsimmons joins me now from the UCL Centre for Longitudinal Studies and I'll also be joined shortly by Claire Livingston, professional policy advisor and lead on infant feeding from the Royal College of Midwives but Professor Emla Fitzsimmons, Fitzsimons excuse me, welcome to the programme. Thank you for joining me. Why is this the case about weekends? Good morning, Emma. Thanks for having me on. So yes, we examine whether timing of birth affects breastfeeding and in particular, whether babies born on a weekend are less likely to be breastfed compared to those born during the week. And for a certain group of mothers, and in particular those who left school before age 17,

we find that it does. So a baby born on a Saturday is around six percentage points less likely to be breastfed compared to those born on a Monday. And we find evidence in our studies to suggest it's because breastfeeding support, which is really, really important for establishing successful breastfeeding, is less available to mums at weekends. So it's more difficult for them to get it right from the get go. And we believe that's an important factor in the findings.

Because they're just not having that support, not being taught, don't have the confidence. And I mean, it sounds like it's a logistical issue. Yeah, I mean, I think it's, you know, midwives are stretched and focused more on core maternity services, of course. And so there's less resourcing, less time, midwife time available to help mothers with those, you know, early latches, that very early support that's absolutely vital to get things right from the get go. And it's just less available for mothers at weekends and sort of early on into the weekend from Friday evening through Sunday. That's what we find in our study. And did it also find, did you, I know, you know, I mentioned it's a longitudinal study, but were you also able to capture whether some of those women who didn't end up breastfeeding

would have liked to and with greater support would have done so? So we didn't look at that in the study but what we did we looked at a different survey which asked women whether they were happy with the support they received at hospital whether they received practical sort of hands-on support and again we found that women were consistently reporting receiving less hands-on support if their baby was born on a weekend compared to those born during the week so it's certainly important in terms of being able to you know initiate and establish successful breastfeeding and yeah it's it's a real call for i suppose policy to focus yes on providing extra

support for women in those early days 24 7 you know not just well there's there's been similar reports haven't there about actually our own health adults health if they go into hospital at the weekend or they have to go in um a and e at the weekend there can be poorer outcomes there are data sets around that as well which shows the issue but staying with this of course claire livingstone as i mentioned uh the lead on infant feeding for the Royal College of Midwives. Who is responsible, Claire, for giving some help if there is any help? Some will say, you know, they never even offered any support around breastfeeding when you have your

baby. Oh, good morning. And thanks very much for inviting us onto the show. And Emila's made some really good points already. Midwives are responsible and are well trained to provide this support, as are others, including maternity support workers and some trained volunteers also given valuable support. But this should be complementing core midwifery care, but not replacing it. And we have a chronic shortage of midwives which is really worrying. A year ago the Health and Social Care Committee was alerted to the fact that we're 2,000 midwives short and since then in the past year we've lost a further 600 midwives. So this is really concerning. These numbers are dropping month by month and they have implications. But with this length of this study it would show it's also consistent that at the weekend there is a more of an issue not not you know diminishing

what you've just said. Absolutely and we have been short of midwives for a very long time and staffing at weekends is more expensive. Right. And maternity services do require really significant investment. Shortages of midwives mean that midwives are pulled into clinical areas to keep services safe and running and open. And so these shortages are having a huge impact on areas such as breastfeeding support. If you are in a situation, and perhaps you'll remember this in the future, I don't know,

but if you find yourself in a situation where you are a woman giving birth close to the weekend or at the weekend, what should you do if you would like some support on this? Do you ask for it if it hasn't been forthcoming for whatever the reason? How should you handle that? I think it's really important that, you know, women are able to access information, advice and support during their pregnancies. And we also know that antenatal education isn't always available, you know, and accessible as it should be for the same reasons. But I'm just talking about not talking about in the run-up. I mean, stuff gets real when the baby's there. You're suddenly thinking, how do I actually, if I want to and can,

how do I breastfeed? What should you do to get that support in the hospital there and then if it's not forthcoming? Should you ask, albeit a hurried midwife, what should you do? Absolutely. Ask a hurried midwife or what should you do absolutely ask a hurried midwife midwives will do their very best to make time to offer that support you know and midwives know you know how to give this support it's very well documented the evidence on the best benefits of breastfeeding to mothers and babies but also it's important to remember that there are multiple factors that influence child health and development yes and but but i suppose i'm just

sticking with that whole how you get the support because that's what this is about the weekend element and i recognize the much bigger picture which i hope you you you hear that we've listened to and heard but i was also interested to learn when you are a midwife, how much a part of your job on the day, on the ward should be that training? I mean, of course, you've got so many other things to do. It was just it was an interest point more than anything. Is it, I don't know, 5% of your workload? What would you say it is once a woman's had a baby? I think it's very difficult because the picture is variable. And clearly there is time right after the birth, which is very, very important, that mothers are supported to have the baby latch on and to start breastfeeding straight away. And that is a critical time.

There are also a lot of other pressures on midwives and on, you know, labour wards at that very moment. So it is difficult. Women should be encouraged and feel able to speak up and ask for help. But we also know that that isn't easy when, you know, services are under such a lot of pressure because of staffing. Claire Lindgston, professional policy advisor and leadant Feeding for the Royal College of Midwives. Thank you. And Professor Emla Fitzsimons from the UCL Centre for Longitudinal Studies, which got that on Wednesday. But let me tell you about who's just walked into the studio. She's been investigating, the journalists have just been joined by, the business of online porn. Who's making money from it and how these businesses operate.

We know, for instance, we've talked about it on this programme, it has been notoriously difficult for women trying to have content removed from porn sites that's been uploaded without their knowledge or against their will, as they often struggle to find a name an email address a contact to any of these websites and i'm not just about one there's lots one woman who's been looking into this and the results now is a new podcast series is patricia nilsson from the financial times the podcast series is called

hot money great name patricia welcome thank you much. What made you interested in trying to demystify the business of online porn? It was a couple of years ago that I started looking into the porn industry as part of my media beat at the Financial Times. And I realized that a lot of people in the industry were talking about this company called MindGeek, which has a lot of influence and it's very dominant. But you couldn't really learn much about the company in terms of, you know, who really owns it. I mean, what's the structure like? And so I set out to figure that out.

Yes, and I suppose one of the names you might be more aware of that MindGeek owns is Pornhub, is that right? Yes. Okay, just to put a name against it. I mean, I used to be a technology correspondent and work for the Telegraph newspaper. And I always remember the league table that came out of the most visited websites and it would be released by Google, but it would never include porn. I don't know if that's changed, but I used to find that extraordinary, especially when you look at the numbers, which I was just doing before we came on air, data provider SimilarWeb says pornography accounts for close to 8% of all internet traffic,

generates 18.5 billion visits a month across the world. So, you know, when we talk about the big players, we talk about Google, we talk about Facebook or Meta, as it's now called, this is serious, seriously big business. Yeah, I mean, the porn industry is, I mean, if you look at the industry itself, it's quite small. It's a handful of companies that are really dominating it. But look at, you know, what a big chunk of the Internet is porn.

And still, we're not really talking about who the people are who are behind this industry and regulating it. Have you managed to get close to some of those people? Well, so my investigation began by finding out that this company MindGeek, which, as you mentioned, owns Pornhub and a lot of other tube sites, that they had this secret owner, a former Goldman Sachs banker that had gone through great lengths to make sure that no one knew he existed. I mean, even a lot of people in the industry didn't know he existed. And that was the kind of starting point for this podcast where we thought, wow, we found a secret porn kingpin. And, you know, he must control the whole industry. But if you follow the money, you see the trail kind of goes beyond him in terms of who really has power here. But there wasn't a problem with you naming the individual, I presume, or there was.

In what sense do you mean? Like actually saying who this person was. No. So we know Mark Zuckerberg and his name. I suppose is this now a household name? Do people know this individual? He has a Wikipedia page now. What's his name?

His name is Bernd Bergmeier. Right. But this is an individual who's never given an interview. Never given an interview. Okay. I mean, I should say we've not, you know, MindGeek, of course, have given comment for your pieces. And again, you know, also say things like when people contact them, when women

contact them, they do take down content. There are replies like that. But your point is there wasn't much known about the individuals behind. Yes. What have you learned now you've gone into it? And I know you've looked at other companies as well. Well, what we found very interesting was, because the global porn industry is it's business now and with these global internet companies, they are difficult to regulate. I mean, who has the power to regulate them? And what we've discovered when it comes to online porn, the de facto regulators of this industry are the credit card companies, Visa and MasterCard. Because a lot of these porn companies take payments, they rely on credit card companies to be able to do so. And if there's anyone who actually has power to set terms in the industry, it's them. Right. So they're sort of the arbiters here, verifying users and who can pay? Well, not verifying users, but basically, if you want to be able to use a Visa and MasterCard, you know, for your business, then there are certain rules you need to abide by. And what we've learned is that if you look at the rules that Visa and MasterCard set when it comes to porn, these are very vague. You know, I mean, basically, they just say nothing illegal.

But then they kind of go into a little bit of further detail. And you have a whole network or an ecosystem then of payment companies that sort of help companies be able to take visa and MasterCard. And they start setting more granular rules for what type of porn can be made in order to make sure that they're not in breach of the rules set by the credit card companies. And what about, I mean, for instance, in the UK, upcoming legislation, talking about the Digital Harms Bill and where that's got to and how it's working, will that have more effect on regulation? It could have in terms of age verification.

I mean, that's why I became interested in the porn industry a couple of years ago. It was the first time around when the UK government was trying to implement age verification around for porn. Which we should say is a huge debate, you know, whether that should be happening generally. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's complicated. A lot of people can agree that the system we have now is not great, but perhaps the system that they wanted to implement at least a couple of years ago was... Flawed. So to say. Yes. No, no. I mean, that's a whole other discussion. But that's when you first

also got interested in this. What do you think people, I mean, people could listen to the podcast, but what do you think people should know about this, and maybe in particular women, about the business of porn that perhaps they're not alive to? I think anyone who is interested in porn hates porn and don't really know what they feel about porn I think should listen to this and learn more about the industry and I think especially we have quite a difficult relationship with sex work and sex workers and I think it would be I think people find it interesting to to listen to performers who actually do porn talk about how they would like to see the industry performed.

Right. And because that's a part of what you've also been trying to include in this. Yes. And are you any closer to getting interviews with any of the owners of these sites? As you say, there aren't actually that many. There's just many sites sites but owned by groups there is a so we have our next episode is coming out tomorrow tuesday and that episode is about another porn company that is you know that owns websites that are even bigger than those that mind geek owns but it's an even more secretive company and we actually did hear from these people we actually they answered some of our our our questions over an email.

Yes. But in terms of having an on-the-record interview with any of these, the owners of these big bond companies, we have not gotten that. We'll watch this space, shall we? As you say, another episode's coming out tomorrow. Hot Money is the name. There are five episodes already,

three more to come, one tomorrow. The Financial Times is Patricia Nilsson. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. For coming on and explaining where you've got to so far. And thank you to you for so many messages today ahead of the women's Euros, ahead of the women's football game, getting another boost. And lots and lots of people getting ready for it this week.

And lots of you saying you didn't usually care about football or you haven't cared about football. And the women's game has turned you on to it. I love this from Adrienne, who said, I played for the fabulously named Camberwell Old Fallopians WFC. Great name.

For over 20 years from 1990, some of the best times of my life. That year seems to be when the women's game really took off. The effects of Italia 90. I'll be watching the Euros. I love to see how far the game has come.

The Camberwell Old Fallopians. Brilliant. As a young girl, says Fiona, in County Durham in the late 60s and 70s, all I wanted to do was play football alongside my six brothers, all of whom, incidentally, I was much better than. I wasn't allowed to play for my school team because it was only for boys, so all my football playing was in the streets or in the playground during breaks. At the age of 30, I was spotted by a women's team.

While kicking around in the park, I played my first game of 11-a-side football at the age of 30 and had five enjoyable years in the Women's Southern League. Could have been so much better if I'd had the opportunities earlier. Another one from Rowena who says, I enjoyed playing in the 80s at college. I'm wondering if any other members of the Robinson College First Ladies football team would like to get together and watch the Euros finals.

Well, you've issued the invitation here, Rowena, on Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for that. And another one, again, just this theme of not being into football and then the women's game perhaps giving you a way into it. All of that to come. We'll have more to follow up on.

Thank you so much for your company. Back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hello, I'm Stephen Fry and I heartily recommend you listen to the BBC's history podcast, You're Dead to Me, because, well, one, you can join me in learning all about Frederick the Great of Prussia. Two, it takes you on a historical grand tour from naughty nuns who became stitching sisters to a globe-trotting maghrebi. And three, well, it's fun. And don't we all need a little bit of that at the moment?

You can find it on BBC Sounds, don't you know? So subscribe to You're Dead to Me and have yourself a giggle as you learn. You've earned it. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.