Woman's Hour - Poorna Bell, Scars, Adele Parks

Episode Date: January 4, 2022

Many of us will be thinking about making a change for the better now that we're in a new year. Poorna Bell, author and journalist, gives us some inspiration and talks about getting stronger, both emotionally and physically. Poorna took it literally and started weight lifting after illness and bereavement. We hear from Dr Ann Olivarius a lawyer who specialises in sexual abuse, harassment and discrimination. She explains the technicalities of the civil claim against Prince Andrew, the Duke of York.We speak to Detective Inspector Lucy Thomson and Jackie Sebire about the murder of 12 week old Teddie Mitchell. The investigation is covered in a new two-part special of Channel 4's 24 Hours in Police Custody.We have episode 4 in our series about scars.And Adele Parks’ latest novel called Both of You is a 'missing persons story' with a twist. We find out that the female protagonist is leading a double life as a bigamist. The book looks at what leads someone to have two marriages on the go, and the complexities around it.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. It is lovely to be back with you, coming to you from the Woman's Hour studio, live for my first time in 2022. I've got to get used to saying that, a bit like when you write the new year down on a piece of paper for the first time. As ever, a packed programme for you today. But I did want to take the opportunity, as we start another year together, to ask about something a friend said to me the other day. We were walking through a muddy field on New Year's Eve

and we were discussing the next 12 months ahead. And she said to me, for her, it wasn't about New Year's resolutions, but New Year's graces. Now, I'd never heard this before, but she said it was kindnesses to herself and to others. And after the last couple of years, that's what she felt she needed. It was about gifts to give oneself, not taking things away that you may find hard. Well, one of my guests today can talk about the new year and how for many, it doesn't feel like a fresh start. And I'm aware that many of you today, for instance, aren't able to go where you're meant to be going,

whether that's to your office and you're still working from home, or perhaps you can't go to school to teach or learn. But the writer, Paul Nabel, will be here to talk about how to try still to tap into that new year, new energy. But what would it be for you? What would a new grace or a new gift for yourself that you could give yourself would be this year instead of a resolution or something, you know, to take away from yourself that might make the year harder tell me what comes to mind when i said that to you this morning 84844 is the number you need to text me here at woman's hour text will be charged at your standard message rate i was going to try and take the year of eating chips i'm going to share that with you now, my beloved fried potato. But now I'm not so sure after that conversation. Instead, I may finally be kind to my posture and regularly

attend a yoga class, having been threatening to do so for the last three years or so. Or maybe I'll finally learn to make chicken soup properly from scratch. But how about you? What are yours? What are your New Year's graces? What are the gifts you can give yourself to make this year a little easier? Do let me know. Also on today's programme, I'm joined by a queen of domestic noir, the author Adele Parks on what she's learned about women living double lives, and the police officer behind an extraordinary investigation currently on Channel 4. But first, the Duke of York will attempt to have the civil claim against him for sexual assault dismissed later today in New York. It is a crunch point for him and his legal team and, of course, for Virginia Dufresne.

The court has published a deal between his accuser, Virginia Dufresne, and his former friend, the paedophile Jeffrey Epstein, in which she accepted damages and agreed not to sue any other potential defendants. Lawyers for Prince Andrew, who has consistently denied the allegations, argue that he is covered by that agreement. But what has the Duke actually been accused of? Dr Anne Olivarius, a senior partner at McAllister Olivarius and a lawyer who specialises in sexual abuse, harassment and discrimination cases on both sides of the Atlantic, joins me now. Good morning.

Good morning. I wanted to start with the actual allegations, what she's actually suing him for in a civil lawsuit. Of course, Virginia Dufresne is claiming that he had sex with her on three occasions two decades ago, aged 17. She'd been sexually trafficked by Epstein. But the charge itself isn't rape. What she's actually suing the Duke of York for are claims of battery and the intentional infliction of emotional distress. What does that mean? Well, let me just say, as far as we know, the trafficking started at the age of 16 for Virginia Chouvre, and that was her first alleged sexual encounter with Prince Andrew. The claims in New York under the Child Victims Act are for intentional infliction of emotional harm. That's a very high standard to reach in New York. It's not just you hurt my

feelings, you slap my face, but it's the kind of thing where a mother would have to watch a person deliberately put a knife in their child or something quite dramatic. I make more of an extreme point than necessary, but it's not just an easy claim to win. But the other claim they're bringing is for battery. But under battery in New York, they're bringing a claim for first and second degree rape in there. So it's sort of odd that it's not just it's not a rape claim and also a battery, but under battery alone in that cause of action, they're also alleging rape, third degree and first degree. He continues to deny even meeting Virginia Giufresne, we should say, and all allegations. Why do you think that these are the claims that have been put in or that have been chosen? Because I suspect if you were to say to somebody here in the UK, what are these claims, they wouldn't have picked those words. They wouldn't have known necessarily that those were the allegations. Indeed. Well, I think, you know, as a lawyer who operates on both sides of the

Atlantic and brings these cases all the time, you have to think about how do you get justice and what's the best way to win your case. So winning a claim for battery in a New York court would be a lot easier, it seems to me, than a claim for rape, civil rape. That's much tougher. And of course, people who have been raped and sexually abused have a really hard time getting the system work for them. But you know, what is interesting is that in the court of public opinion, not just in New York, but I live in London and work in London, I think Prince Andrew has already lost. Because the more that this goes on, the worse he looks, everything he's fighting on is a technicality. He's fighting

on jurisdiction. He's fighting on a agreement that a renowned pedophile signed to cover him. It is really disconcerting, I think, and it shows victims how hard it is to get justice, how belittled they are. And I think Virginia Giuffre, she wins regardless because she's helping all people who have been raped, men and women, say this is a really tough thing to win. And here is Prince Andrew hiding, using an agreement with a convicted pedophile to exonerate himself. That in and of itself seems quite extraordinary and inappropriate.

So I think that she's really done a lot of good for very many people. And I think victims see how hard it is to win these cases and will be inspired because if she can take on a prince and put him through these hurdles that she's already put him through, and he might lose on the mall, but even if he wins, I think she's won and she's done an awful lot of good for people. Of course, this will be decided by a judge today whether the case will proceed or not. And it may actually not be today, we should say as well. This is when it's expected to be, but it may be a few more days. In terms of Prince Andrew, he vehemently denies all allegations. And just to reiterate, in an interview with BBC News, a very famous interview, of course, he said he had

no recollection of meeting Virginia Dufresne. But just to come to this point where you say the lawyers in his case with him, presumably, have made a decision, as you say, to proceed with the argument that he is included in an arrangement with his former friend, the paedophile Jeffrey Epstein, the convicted sex offender. That is, as some have said already, is a gamble. Because if that is your defence, as it were, or your argument to try and get this thrown out, what does that then say about you? Well, that's for everyone to have their own opinion. It seems to me what it tells me is that Virginia Giuffre is brave and she has dignity in bringing these claims. And she's showing us all that you don't back down, don't give up when you have a credible allegation of rape, sexual assault, battery, intentional infliction of emotional harm. You should go forward with those. And she's showing us how to do it. And I think she stands as a poster girl for very many men and women in this country and

in the States. What about those abused? As you say, it's up to people, potentially there'll be a court case or they won't, we'll find out. But it's up to also people what they think here. But what would you say to those who are listening to this, saying she signed a deal already with accepting damages and agreed not to sue any other potential defendants. Why is she doing this again? Is it about the money? Well, OK, so the currency of justice, you know, is money. That's our that's our justice system. So suing for money, that's how it works. And we operate cases on both sides of the Atlantic. And as I've said, so, you know, case fact patterns that I bring here in Britain,

I might get 80, 100,000 quid for. If I bring the same fact pattern in many jurisdictions in the United States, I might get a million quid for. Damages are a really different concept. In the United States, people aren't apologizing for seeking money damages. Here, people seem to always be embarrassed, hesitant. It's a slam on someone to say, well, you just want the money. Well, the money is the only way you get justice. She needs therapy. She's been harmed, you know, and he's been ducking on every single excuse. claims he has a condition which no one has ever virtually heard about, a really obscure condition. And she says, prove it. And he goes to court and says, this is harassment. This is harassment that I have to prove that I have the condition that I'm saying I have, but there's no proof to back it up. Every machination that he's doing is very odd for a person of some dignity. One would think the crown would say, hey, you know, you have to

play the hand fairly. He's doing everything that wealth and power can do to avoid on technicalities having to go through with this case. In terms of what could happen next, you know, regardless of views on this, today, if the judge or whenever we get the ruling from the judge, how likely is it that the agreement that Virginia Dufresne signed in which she accepted damages and agreed not to sue other potential defendants holds up today, including Prince Andrew? How likely is that? We look at those things all the time and particularly these these days, because we have non-disclosure agreements, you know, rape, sexual assault is one of those, you know, activities where men think that instead of bringing a lawsuit, a woman to agree to sign a non-dis even though she had some advice on it, legal advice, who could know? You know, sexual assault, you come of age years later to be able to bring those claims. You find your courage years later. You find your voice. It is so overbroad to say anybody who Jeffrey Epstein may have exposed me to, you know, cannot bring, I can't go after them.

I think that's inappropriate. I think that doesn't survive. It's not enforceable in law. And I think New York has a very high chance of striking that down for Andrew, that he's not going to win that round, nor do I think he should. Just because you forced a young girl to sign something years ago for really a modest sum of money given trafficking and what she's been through, it seems completely unfair and unjust and against all the interests of our democracies. I think we're talking about $500,000 is the number that's out there. And if you are right, if this continues, what happens next? Well, if it continues, then right now the issue on jurisdiction is that they've asked

for the judge to allow them, they want to doesn't she doesn't have jurisdictional issues, that she was a citizen of Australia, is a citizen of Australia and doesn't have something called diversity jurisdiction to bring the case in New York. But what the judge has said, actually, it didn't rule in favor for either party, but it said to Prince Andrew, you do not to get two hours. Your people cannot, you know, actually interview her and do a deposition for a two-hour period on this issue. You've already had tons of discovery. We think it's enough for you to be able to argue your case on that basis. And so we're not going to subject Virginia Dufresne to another two or three hours of questioning, intense questioning on jurisdictional issues. So there's still a lot that will go on. I mean, frankly, you know, our own law firm is doing research on this.

One of the claims, as you know, has been that she was forced to have sex in Belgravia here in London when she was a minor. And so if the case fails in the States, we certainly will be taking a look at whether Virginia Dufresne would want us to represent her here in Britain to bring similar claims or whatever claims under law she might have. So if the judge didn't go along the lines you're talking about today, you think there could be, potentially, should she wish it, more of a case again in the UK? It wouldn't necessarily be the end of it? Potentially, yes. Well, we will follow that case. And I should say, as I have throughout, that Prince Andrew vehemently denies these allegations and says he has no recollection of meeting Virginia Dufresne. And that decision will be made by the judge either later today or in the coming days. But the hearing begins today with regards to whether that argument will stand.

Thank you so much for so many of your messages. Just while we were having that conversation prompted by my question right at the start of the programme about New Year's graces, not necessarily resolutions, but not things you take away from yourself, not harsh goals per se because of the last couple of years that we've had. This idea was floated to me by a friend.

You'd give yourself some of those kindnesses. I intend to set some boundaries, reads this message. I work for myself from home and I regularly let my work voluntary and paid bleed into every day in time so I want to reclaim my time for myself and my family I think a lot of people would agree with that another one be kind to myself in the way I am and try to be kind to everyone else in my life but I don't manage that kindness to myself the expression comes to mind what would you say to a friend in need? And it comes so easily, but it's so hard to say that and give that kindness to ourselves.

So flipping that, what would you say to a friend and say it to ourselves? Julia says, I gave myself the best New Year's gift three years ago, dry January. I haven't drunk a drop of alcohol since then and I feel better about everything.

Work less hard. This is from a woman who's aged 60. No name given, but good morning to you. And another one. Good morning after being ill over Christmas. I'm sorry to hear that. And losing a stone in weight. Not a good way to do it.

I'm using experience to lead me to healthier eating. Gained loads over the past couple of years. Also, I've started colouring and I am not giving myself high standards to live up to. Less pressure, more enjoyment, says Carol, who's listening in sunny leads with a kiss. Thank you very much for that. Keep them in. Coming in, New Year's graces, the kindnesses to yourself. Not what you're taking away, but what you're putting in, what you're giving yourself.

84844 is the number you need to get in touch with me. Please continue to do so. And my next guest knows certainly a thing or two about goals and being kind to herself and to others around her. I have to say, though, Pornabel, the author and journalist, did post a tweet last month in December that caught our eye. She was lifting 130 kilograms in a powerlifting competition and she was jumping for joy afterwards, having recently done this on her 41st birthday and having suffered with long covid symptoms. Pauna good morning. Hi good morning. Congratulations belatedly on such a feat I mean I didn't even know this was a thing I mean I knew powerlifting was a thing but 130 kilograms watching your joy how did that feel first of all?

It was incredible because I think it was my first competition that I'd done in two years. It was my first competition after having long COVID last year for about 10 months. So really, I was going into it just wanting to enjoy the experience, but being able to hit a weight that I couldn't do previously. I couldn't do it two years ago. At the age of 41, in my 40s, was immensely satisfying. Now, I should make clear for people who do not know your work, they must correct themselves with that, of course, that you are not a professional in any way.

Oh, God, no. No. This is all for fun. Yeah, it's a very amateur level. And even when I compete, I am by no means anywhere near the top of what women in my categories and my age group can live. But and this began, why was this a resolution? Was this a gift to yourself to start lifting? It wasn't a resolution, actually. It was more that I had reached a point. So this was probably about, you know started competing about three years ago. But it was more born from the idea that I just wanted to be physically capable to do a few things around

the house and realise that I couldn't really do any of those things. And that kind of snowballed into this real unpicking of, well, why did I not think I was able to do those things? And it was a very kind of slow journey from there. And feeling strong, or perhaps hoping to feel strong must be a wonderful feeling. It's incredible. I mean, having sort of experienced both ends of the spectrum of, you know, having absolutely no strength at all. You said you weren't very good as well in PE, we should say. Oh, God, yes, yes. My PE teachers, I think, would keel over if they could see me now. But I was terrible at PE. I was, you know, the shortest girl in the class. I's resolutions and so on I was thinking back to it every time in the past when I did you know that

classic new year's resolution of I have to go to the gym in January I have to make it stick I have to you know lose weight do x y and z that never ever stuck and it always made me feel really bad about myself so this kind of goal to get strong which was a very kind of slow gentle kind goal for myself which was focused on achievement versus restriction um I I think that's probably why it stuck uh for as long as it did and will continue to be something I keep doing forever after yeah I mean you started to get to go into that before I rudely interrupted about PE but I thought that was very important to get in. But, you know, the other context to this, and again, it's sort of the context of why I'm talking about thoughts for the new year in the way that I am, is COVID.

And you were suffering with some of the symptoms of long COVID. Tell us about that. Yeah, it's I mean, I think because I'm still kind of mentally working through it, the sort of the aspects of long COVID, I don't talk about a huge amount. But what I can say about it was that experiencing long COVID when no one knew it was actually a thing, like it didn't actually have a word last year, was an incredibly destabilizing thing. And just also not understanding why I wasn't getting better. And sort of a combination of things, which I think I just, you know, in my body and in myself, I just sort of ran it, it ran its course in January 2021. And, but then what I was left with was not knowing how to rebuild myself. So, you know, exactly this time last year, I was absolutely terrified of doing any kind of exercise because I didn't want to do something that would then sort of maybe make me go backwards and so on.

And I think what ended up really helping during that time was just number one consistency. So it was doing something really small and incremental every day, which actually started off just being yoga, to be honest. That's the thing I'm promising myself, but I need to. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's an incredible thing. Like even just the act of doing something consistently every day, even if it's a really, you know, for 15 minutes, I found really helped. But also that framework of what I had around lifting weights, which was just patience, that if you fail at something, or if you can't do it, it doesn't mean that you can't go back to it. It doesn't mean that you should feel ashamed of yourself. It just means that you need to try on a different day

and maybe that wasn't the day for you to do it. But yeah, long COVID was gruelling. I still don't think I'm over it in terms of mentally, I think, thinking about it, to be honest. Well, I think, you know, a lot of people listening to this and we know this and we know it's actually more women who have been dealing with this and have felt utterly gaslit at times about whether it's them, it's in their mind. As you say, there wasn't a phrase for it until very recently. We'll be listening and we'll take some heart from what you've got to say.

So thank you for sharing a bit of that. And I also know and you mentioned about being stronger in the home and you've written about this. You know, a lot of people have been dealing with grief and a lot of people have been, you know, coping and perhaps living alone as well. Maybe they hadn't been before. And I know also part of your wanting to be strong and getting into this was also after the death of your husband. And I just wondered what you'd say to anybody right now who's struggling to feel potentially some positivity as we are in a new year. Yeah, I mean, I would say so I wrote a book about this called Stronger, which is, you know, focusing on women's strength and looking at that from every angle, whether it's, you know, mental, physical, emotional, and so on. And, you know, as I sort of said in the book, it's definitely not like, oh, yeah,

I know what's going to pull me out of this horrible vortex of grief. It's going to be lifting some weights. It's not as linear and it's not as simple as that. But it's about finding something that, you know, grief makes you feel very out of control and it makes you feel very unmoored from the things that you used to be able to rely on and count on. And I would say that whatever gives you a semblance or an element of control, and by that, there's a very important distinction between being controlling, for example, which is why I'm not a fan of restrictive diets. I'm not a fan of restriction in general, because I find that sometimes for me anyway, that doesn't really fit my personality type. What I'm talking about with regards to control is being able to give yourself a space or a practice, whatever that looks like, you know, whether that's a hobby or whether that's a physical activity where you can actually apply something to yourself and see a slow trajectory of change. So for example, when it comes to lifting weights for me personally, it might be something completely different for someone else, is that I

would tell myself that I wasn't very strong, or I couldn't possibly do that. And every single week and week out, I would have incontrovertible evidence that the way that I feel about myself inside is not reality, it's not fact. And actually, that there is a different, there's evidence to prove that I'm stronger than I am. But also, I think with grief, you know, there's a lot of anxiety that can come with that as well. And I think that doing anything consistently, that isn't necessarily part of your day to day life, also can be hugely meditative, it can be hugely restorative and calming. But it's a journey, and it takes time and sometimes you'll you'll you know take a few steps forward and a few steps back but it's

about finding a bit of calm and respite within that and definitely gravitating towards stuff that gives you joy well we're getting a lot of messages about what gifts and graces people want to give to themselves this year which is it's a lovely way of thinking about it i'd never thought about it uh like that before. And it's lovely to talk to you again, Pornabel. We've spoken before, especially around the time of your book. And of course, I'm just not going to mess with you now that you can lift 130 kilograms. I mean, I wasn't before, but I'm definitely not now.

Pornabel, I hope 2022 keeps going for you in the way that, well, certainly last year ended with power, strength and that feeling of positivity. Thanks, Emma. Lovely to talk to you. Pauna, I hope 2022 keeps going for you in the way that, well, certainly last year ended with power, strength and that feeling of positivity. Thanks, Emma. Lovely to talk to you, Pauna Bell there. I was a little bit tapping on the line there. Apologies for that if that was distracting, but very important message from Pauna. A message here to focus on the gain. Gaining strength, gaining flexibility, gaining new experiences, reads this message, and opportunities, gaining energy, gaining time with children and not to focus on the losses or restrictions, i.e. weight, restricting food, chastising oneself for not doing something because something else got in the way.

To focus on making the most of what you can do or are doing each and every day. Louise, thank you so much for that. I've decided to take up a word, says Juliet, as a kind of totem for 2022. And that is guardian of my loved ones, my health, my finances, my creativity. Lovely one there. Thank you for that, Juliet. Listening in Gloucestershire. Good morning. I'm gracing myself with the idea I don't always have to be right and it's OK to get things wrong. And there's no need to beat myself up. I will forgive myself, says Lee. Listening in Worcester. Hello to you.

Fresh flowers every fortnight for the house. There you go. That's mine. No name on that one. And another message. Hello, Emma. Giving myself space to read and listen to things that get me lost in thought, including this show.

No name on that very wise message, but I would spread that one far and wide. Thank you so much for them. Keep them coming in and do let me know those New Year graces. I'm loving reading them and seeing what you're going to be doing for yourselves and making yourselves feel a little better, especially after the last couple of years we have had. Now, last night, you may have seen episode one of an extraordinary new two-part special on Channel 4's 24 Hours in Police Custody.

The case follows an investigation into the murder of 12-week-old baby Teddy Mitchell in 2019. Teddy's mother, Lucy Smith, and her partner, Kane Mitchell, were found guilty on separate charges in connection with the baby boy's death. Mitchell, who was not Teddy's biological father, was found guilty of murdering Teddy and jailed for life, and Lucy Smith was convicted of cruelty to a child. The documentary is a behind-the-scenes look at the case in real time led by DCI Lucy Thompson. Lucy spent years in the major crime unit across Bedford, Cambridge and Hertfordshire.

She joins me now, as does Jackie Sabir, who runs the Joint Protection Services across the three counties. And I should warn you, perhaps you didn't see last night, the details of this case do not make for an easy listen let me come to you first dci lucy thompson good morning good morning and thank you for promoting me i i am only a di oh excuse me i've given you an extra letter there well there you go it's a new gift from me to you di lucy thompson um it is very very hard watching and this is your job this is what you do I was very struck by that when when I was starting to watch this last night and when you get a case like this what was so

striking is you have you start with a blank piece of paper don't you and you have to you have to consider all possibilities yeah absolutely and not And not jump to conclusions. Just look, I have to look at things and take things in. And often that might seem like I'm not doing very much, but it's about absorbing all of the issues and working out what has actually happened here. What's the truth of this situation? And that can be very complex and intricate. I'm not going to go into all of the details here about what happened to Teddy. I mean, not because I don't think it's important and I just don't wish for it to sound in any way gratuitous. And it's incredibly upsetting and it's incredibly hard to go through.

But it was, as it turned out, as as i've said it was that he was a victim oh completely i mean you know teddy um 10 weeks old um when he's admitted to hospital relying on those adults around him to protect him with no voice of his own um you know he can't at that stage of life he's not even able to lift his head or roll away because his development isn't at that stage. So entirely dependent on the adults around him to care for him and to protect him. So the most vulnerable of victims that we have in society.

And in terms of one of the kind of elements of this that I found so striking and I specifically thought to talk about you know on Woman's Hour is you couldn't you can't make it was said in the film you can't make a woman be a victim you can't make them say that the partner was hurting them or their children in this case they have to obviously say that themselves

and I just wonder how frustrating is it for you when you're in a position where, and I should just say for people who haven't seen it, you know, there was evidence and growing testimony that you were getting and collecting from neighbours of repeat call outs to the police about violence and aggression and shouting in the home. Yeah, absolutely. I think what cannot be underestimated is the power of fear and the power of denial in terms of driving somebody who is ultimately controlled by their partner, whether that's controlled through psychological control or by physical control. But usually it's a combination of the two and that double whammy

means that sometimes what you one might think is well that's the rational response I need to get my myself and my children out of this situation actually you aren't able to think that clearly because of the degree of control that that perpetrator has on you. And it isn't possible to just keep saying to somebody, look, we know you're a victim. We know that you've been attacked. We know that you've been controlled by this man. Actually, if his control is such that it completely overwhelms them, then they may not see the rational argument that you're trying to present to them.

An extraordinary moment of clarity, though, does actually come from one of the children, one of the other children, from one of Lucy's other children, who speaks candidly to one of your team. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's, for me, that's one of the most powerful messages that comes from for me, that's one of the most powerful messages that comes from the investigation is that it's the impact, you know, not just on the infants, but on the other siblings of constantly living in this abusive household and that they absorb it all. They see it, they absorb it, and they are able to tell us what it's like. And they're not hiding anything.

They're not trying to cover up. They're not trying to stitch mum up or stitch dad up. They are just describing the reality for them in that household. And that's hugely powerful. But hugely violent in this instance. Absolutely. And what was going on. There's a major reaction on social media.

I mean, what's so extraordinary about this is the footage, that you're actually able to see the first clips of the two parents who were accused as they became and then convicted in their first reactions to what was going on with Teddy. And then you see when they're arrested for the first time and then charged. And a huge reaction was to what people arrested for the first time and then charged. And a huge reaction was to what people were calling, you know, the crocodile tears of Kane Mitchell,

you know, who was found guilty of murdering this baby, this 12-week-old baby to give him his name, Teddy. People saying, how could he do this? And I just wonder, you know, how common is that to see such an extraordinary reaction that's actually very convincing? It is really quite common. But one of, you know, my experience having been an officer for a fair few years now is that people often don't behave in the way that you might expect them to. So actually not to ascribe too much meaning to that response because people are so different, particularly at moments of crisis and deep anguish. So yes, in hindsight, yes, you could all say crocodile tears,

but actually you need to take it all with a pinch of salt, actually. Diya Lucy Thompson, thank you for that. Let me bring in Jackie Sabir, who runs Joint Protection Services across the three counties. A serious case review. Jackie's looking into what all agencies can learn from this case, because, of course, that's the much bigger question with a view to stopping this from happening again. I know you're limited on what you can talk about on this specific case because it hasn't been published yet. But, you know, with repeat call outs to the police, some will be thinking, well, how was this not stopped? How are there not more interventions?

Yeah, good morning. And just first, can I just say a massive thank you to Lucy and the team? You know, she's an incredible detective, as are the whole team. And, you know, the compassion and the dedication they show just shines through that program and I'm very proud to lead them but just to to answer your question there were absolutely repeated call outs and that the serious case review will look at what the police social care the the other children's school knew about that and piece piece together what we can learn from those situations but I think it's really important to remember no one else killed that baby Teddy other than Kane. And what we have

to do is try and piece together all of the information. And as we've already said, Lucy wasn't in the space to be able to provide the evidence for us to be able to do or remove those children as we might have done had we had that full evidence at the time so it is really really difficult and I think we've seen nationally how many how many other children are are you know suffering from this um but these parents are incredibly manipulative you know we see a snapshot of of their lives and and these people are very powerful and very manipulative as well so I think know, we have to remember that. Yes. I mean, in some ways, well, if you haven't seen it, you might be thinking, well, you know, of course, there's been some high profile baby murder cases that people can particularly think of at the moment. And Arthur Labinjo Hughes and Star Hobson to to give those those children their names.

And you may be forgiven for thinking or be thinking at the moment, more needs to be done. We need to stop failing children like this. And yes, at the same time, you can see how often the police are in a situation, not where they're powerless, but it's very hard to do anything at that time with the evidence that they're given. Absolutely. You know, to remove a child from their parents or their carers is a really, really serious decision to make because of the negative impact it can have on that child. So we absolutely have to have evidence and that's why piecing together all of the information from neighbours, from relatives, friends, schools, all of that is so important, whether it's people

coming forward or anonymous information that's reported. None of this is easy. And whilst each death is absolutely horrendous, you know, I came up through the Victoria Columbia days, you know, and these children are in our public consciousness, aren't they? You know, you see these names, you hear these names and you can remember the pictures of the children you see on the news. But we have to be careful and we have to get it right and piece together that information so carefully. Jackie Sabir, thank you very much for your time as well. The second part of the documentary, which is part of Channel 4's 24 Hours in Police Custody, is on the channel this evening at nine o'clock.

And both parts, of course, will be available on 4 On Demand afterwards. Now, just to bring you something else completely, in our latest in the series, talking to women about their scars, we've been hearing about the physical and emotional pain they've experienced and the impact of having to deal with other people's reactions on a day-to-day basis. And lots of your reactions to this too have come in, which are very powerful. And also still getting messages about your New Year's graces, to which I will return. But today we're going to hear from Amy,

who comes from Kent, is 35, and works in retail, as well as being an artist and a support to people with disfigurements and skin differences. She has psoriasis, and at 14 she started getting the most common sort of it, known as plaque psoriasis, especially behind her knees and on elbows. Later, though, she began to develop gutate psoriasis all over her body and on her face. Enna Miller went to meet Amy at her home.

When I knocked on the door today, you opened the door, big smile, and you've got your makeup on, and I thought, it's a good day. Yeah, definitely. It's been a few weeks now since I've had a flare-up and my skin's looking really great at the moment. So I still have patches on other bits of my body. But no, yeah, today all clear and looking fresh and yeah, happy. Are you able to describe to me or even show me, let's call it a flare-up day?

Strangely, I've taken lots of photos of my skin during a major flare-up and I have had those photos even printed, which sounds a bit crazy. But I think it's just to remind myself of what my skin can be. Have you got any that I can have a look at? So this was considered a really severe flare-up for me. The psoriasis, it started on patches on my forehead. First, it was just this whole kind of small spot-sized dry patches, and they grew. So eventually, each patch grew and kind of merged with each other, creating much larger patches of dry skin

crossing my entire forehead. Both eyebrows were completely affected. Then it spread down the sides of my nose, around my mouth, until yeah, it was pretty much dotted all over my face, neck and body. And then you've got another one here. So this photo is me with my makeup done. Obviously, it couldn't cover my skin at all. There's no way I could put any foundation on. It would just look dry and cakey. And it wouldn't be good for the psoriasis anyway. It would just probably cause the flare up to get worse. So this is me on a good day, wearing one of my wigs with my eye makeup fully done and yeah I felt glamorous this day I was kind of at this point used to my psoriasis but as you can see it is covering my face still and my entire chest so yeah. Can you tell me what it feels like? It felt like a burn, I guess, is how I would describe it.

So it wasn't so much itchy. I constantly had this tingling, burning sensation on all of the patches of psoriasis that covered my face and, well, my entire body. And then it affects my scalp the most, actually, because scalp is probably the most common type of psoriasis you can get. So, yeah, my scalp's really badly affected with psoriasis and during my flare-up I started to notice like a lot of hair loss at one point my hair was so fine it was a few strands really that I could just hold together what I ended up doing was buying wigs yeah I just started collecting wigs to make myself feel better and sometimes it would get bad enough that it would feel like an open wound, although it wouldn't necessarily appear to be bleeding or obviously it would sometimes bleed, but even the feeling of my

clothing touching my psoriasis would be completely unbearable. I love all my clothes and I love fashion just as most girls do. I could only wear fleece lined leggings and big baggy jumpers that were fleece lined. I couldn't wear bras or knickers anymore so I had to wear kind of like cycling shorts so that the elastic didn't cut into my skin. Having a shower I couldn't use soap or shower gel and at night time I had to make sure that I was really moisturised. Throughout the day I was having to get used to moisturising on the hour. Getting off to sleep was really difficult.

But it was quite miserable because it meant things like waking up the next day to a bed that would be covered in oil or grease or from my skin or blood or things like that. Do you remember the first time it happened? It was over the course of two weeks. So initially when I first got the Goutte psoriasis, I was misdiagnosed with chicken pox. I headed back to the doctors and he just really brushed it off like it was nothing.

And I remember thinking, but it's affecting my face and you're not going to do anything about it. And I left and went back to work that day in tears, thinking it was just going to rapidly spread and get worse, which it did. So over the next few weeks, it got worse and worse to the point of I ended up staying at my mum's because I couldn't cope with how I looked. I'd stay at hers in the same room as her,

so she set me up a little bed in her room. That's quite a big move, isn't it? Going from an independent woman working doing your own thing to sleeping in the same bed as your mum to help you cope? Yeah it's easy to definitely easy to look at people with psoriasis and or a skin condition and just think oh it is just a skin condition that they should be able to cope but actually when it's you and it affects you I remember my mum actually telling me a story about a friend of hers whose daughter had psoriasis and actually lost took her life because she couldn't cope looking in the mirror each day when she told me originally I remember thinking that's crazy why would you take your life over

psoriasis but then when it happened to me I kept thinking I mean I've never considered taking my own life but I remember understanding her feelings and what I couldn't cope with the most was that initial feeling in the morning of like remembering that how I now looked and having to accept it all over again so I kind of would cope throughout the day but that's why I stayed at my mum's because I still went to work every day that didn't change I didn't have time off. I couldn't have time off sick just for a skin condition. But I couldn't face looking at myself. So in the morning, she was always ready, bless her,

always at my side, waiting for me to wake up. I just would burst into tears, and she would kind of comfort me and tell me I was beautiful and remind me that she would get me all the help that she could get me. You are aware of other people's reactions as well. How my feelings towards my psoriasis wasn't just how I felt, how my skin felt, even though it was unbearable and so uncomfortable. It was people, how people responded to me. It was either negative and people looked at me like I was disgusting or even made comments like at work

customers would say to me or can I not be served by you because I think you've probably got something contagious. What was your reaction to that? I work in retail so I'm selling like fashion I just found myself initially just saying yep that's fine um I'll get someone else to serve you and just kind of walking away from that situation and taking myself out of it especially at the beginning when I was still quite upset about it but to be honest it didn't take me long to be able to say to people I'm just not contagious I'm absolutely fine so either you're served by me or you won't get served do you think you could have coped with the situation better if it hadn't been on your face yeah 100% if it

wasn't on my face I could have managed it and no one would have known everything else would have still been the same like the discomfort the treatments everything would have been the same but no one would have needed to know about it and it could have been my own like private health condition as soon as it affected my face everyone had to know about it everyone could see it couldn't do anything about it couldn't cover it um couldn't stop it from progressing so yeah that was what was hardest for me without being too intimate did you literally get it everywhere? Yeah and I actually still do. I'm not embarrassed to say it because I think a lot of people suffer in silence with that. The worst part of my psoriasis is down below because it hurts to urinate, it hurts to go to the toilet. Underwear has become a problem all the time. Things like

sandwich towels and stuff are impossible to wear just because they rub my psoriasis. And it can also, like, affect things with my partner as well. I have to kind of say to him, like, at the moment I'm going through a bad patch and I just, you know... It's open wounds all the time. It's constant bleeding, cracked skin. I've been with you for the last hour and a little bit and, you know, the focus has been the face. And obviously now we've been

together a while um you know you feel more comfortable to talk to me hopefully but it's just the thing that actually I never even thought about it I don't know if I would actually talk to you about it or not because I guess it is very private but I suppose actually talking about it's a good thing because I don't think anyone talks about that even on social media people that have psoriasis you don't hear them talking about how it affects their genitalia. You talked about your mum being supportive. Who else was supportive? All of my friends and family were really supportive. I was single at the time, so I didn't expect to meet anyone with gutate psoriasis.

I just thought, yeah, until it it either clears up which I wasn't sure would happen the doctor said it may never clear up but yeah I didn't expect to meet anyone during a flare-up until I met my partner yeah because when I first met him he had absolutely no questions about my skin at all he didn't didn't query it didn't look at me any different just approached me and said wow you're beautiful and I think it was me that turned around and actually said, are you joking? Have you seen my face? He's looking at your face. Yeah. I was just like, are you like actually looking at my face?

And he was just like, there's nothing wrong with your face, is there? And I said, yeah, look. And I really pointed them out. I was like, look at all these marks on my skin. Can you not see them? And he was like, yeah, I can see them, but it's just your face. And you're beautiful. It was on our first date. we actually had people come over to our table in the restaurant and say can I just say like I remember one lady came over to me and she went can I just say you look beautiful no matter what um and again I think that was another really nice experience like I mean the fact that she had to come over was a bit odd I did think I was going to say and I love that, like, you look beautiful.

And then it's that sentence at the end, no matter what. And you're like, oh, thanks. Yeah, it was a bit of an odd one. But I think it was she. She was trying. She was trying to be kind. Yes, she thought she was doing a good thing. A lot of it is about what you choose to hear.

I'd let things drag me down too easily people started to contact me once I had my initial photo on social media and say you're really inspirational and things like that that was when I think I had to embrace it and I thought wow like I don't think I would ever have considered myself an inspiration to anyone I was just plodding along through life letting myself get down which is easily done we all do it but probably thinking back now over silly things like men and just realizing that actually you are what can make your life incredible opportunities started opening up I'm this is going to sound really strange and I think people will think I'm a bit crazy for saying it but I sometimes miss my flare-ups like if I haven't had one in a while because it reminded me that there are bigger things in life and that there

are people that are worse off than you. There you go. Amy talking to Enna Miller. Thank you so much to Amy for being so candid. And actually, just to say, sources of information and support about scars and skin differences are available on our website, on the Women's Hour website. But what she's saying chimes with so much

of what you're saying about New Year's graces and being kind to yourself. Many messages coming in, but I've got to read this one from Julia, who sounds great as well um who sent us a kiss says happy new year and she says two women's out quite an outbreak of humble bragging among listeners with regards to new year graces i work so hard must make more time for myself nobody says i'm going to be kind to myself by drinking more champagne eating more

chocolate and being extremely rude to people i don't like. Why is that, I wonder? Juliet, we've got your list. Thank you very much. Well, Anna must have been listening because she also messaged almost at the same time to say, the greatest kindness we can show to ourselves and to our community is to speak out when we are upset by something or someone

and not to absorb it and just be kind. I'm loving these messages. And more coming in. Nia's Grace is practicing and having a hilarious time nurturing the art of imperfection. Many thanks for such great listening. That's from Karen. Many thanks to you. And I think I can get behind that one. Indeed. And drinking lots and eating lots and doing whatever else we accept all. Well, my next guest has been called a queen of domestic noir, and some of these probably have

been in her books, these sorts of promises or graces to herself or to oneself. Adele Parks, she knows what makes her readers tick, and her latest novel, Both of You, is out in paperback on Thursday. It is a missing person story with a twist. The female protagonist is leading a double life as a bigamist. Bigamy is the crime of being married to two people at the same time. And the book looks at what could lead somebody to do it and the complexities of maintaining two marriages from a woman's perspective, I should say. Adele Parks, good morning.

Good morning. I just wanted to start by saying congratulations, MBE, for services to literature, New Year's honours. We're talking about New Year's graces, now you've got a New Year's Honour I thought I'd just say that from the off because you've done it now, you don't need to do anything this year Well I think it's the opposite, I think once you have it I mean it was such a

colossal and unexpected surprise, I literally put the, it came by email and I literally put it in my spam twice because I was utterly convinced that it had to be a joke and nobody would be sending me an MBE Yeah yeah yeah yeah genuinely genuinely um literally the most mind blowing thing so now I think goodness somebody was watching what I'm up to so now I have to be like even better I'm such a girly swat I have to like work even harder I couldn't live a double life I

couldn't be a bigamist I would clearly get caught out because someone somewhere watching me. We're fans of girly swats and all in between and those who just want to be imperfect and eat lots of chocolate. And to get to your latest story, because you are prodigious in your output, this focus with this additional twist of bigamy, why did you go towards that? And why did you choose for a woman to be doing it? Yeah, I think, okay, there are more cases of men being bigamist than women. But I think your show and everything every woman who's been on this show has ever talked about is the fact that there should be no boundaries of what women can and can't do. And that unfortunately includes crime. So I did do a lot of research into bigamists and try to understand what is definitely a dark they missing in their lives that they think they need not only one husband, but two?

I mean, I think after Christmas, there'll be lots of your listeners that'll be going, good God, why would you do that to yourself? One husband's far more than enough than what we need, you know, all that kind of joke. joke so I was interested in in looking at I've often looked at some split personalities why there's more to us uh the layers that we are what we present to the world and what we might be below that and why with that so yeah I found it I found the research fascinating I think the the topic will be interesting to lots of women because the truth is in this story in both of you um one of the women has a family and an ordinary job in an ordinary home and she runs about worrying about her job and her washing and her kids school being on the league tables and all that kind of thing the other marriage the wife she is to the other husband is incredibly glamorous they they have staff there

um the only thing he thinks she does is sort of outside their incredibly glamorous life is look after her ailing mother of course she's not looking after her really mother she's um looking after a second family but I think actually would appeal to all of us being more than one person not necessarily appeal to all of us having two husbands and two lives but I think all of us being more than one person, not necessarily appeal to all of us having two husbands and two lives. But I think all of us are more than one person all of the time. Yes. And that's what you're tapping into. Of course, it is a crime. I should just stress that. Yeah, don't go into it. That's not your New Year's resolution. Which we'll just put that out there again firmly. But in terms of that being something else and having something else, is that why you went towards this?

I mean, you do look at life from the domestic, especially from several vantage points regularly in your work. Yeah, I do. I think we're all about resisting stereotypes, women, aren't we? We don't we don't we've gone through phases, haven't we? And we were pushed into domesticity and that was it. And then we fought our way out of that and found a way to have careers, but we were told, well, that's it. You have to choose one or the other. Then we tried to have it all. And then after a while, I said, God, we're exhausted. Please don't make us have it all. And can we, can we find a way of, of in between and i think it's just that's what i'm fascinated by i'm fascinated that we continue to label ourselves and each other we continue to

limit ourselves and each other um i ought to add that this is all sort of set in a a thriller environment because you know somebody in this book goes goes missing and therefore the case is sort of, you know, unravelled. And you want to know who did this to this, you know, who is missing? Did they run from something? Did they run towards something? I think the whole people who go missing, some of them are taken, some of them feel they have to leave. And I think that's fascinating in itself as well.

And I wanted to fold that in. So the book in itself isn't just about bigamy. It isn't just about a missing person. It isn't even just a domestic thriller. It has these layers, the way we do as people and the way I hope my characters do. I mean, the other thing also to say, one of the reasons why it tends not to be women who are bigamists, and I recognise it's not just about that, is because of resource. So not having the finances.

Resource and biology, which, God love us, hasn't always been the case with everything. They are our two restrictions. Because biology, if you are pregnant to somebody, it is very hard, although not impossible, because I did come across a case where a woman managed to hide her pregnancy to her 18 year long husband and the pregnancy was with her second husband which was a much shorter relationship but in fact the relationship she was most happy in and she managed to hide her pregnancy throughout but that's very unusual and also how do you explain to the children that you're in two different places? Although actually, my heroine in the book does have children. She has stepchildren, but they are children she's brought up all her life. Does your son read your books?

No. No? No, he knows the plots. We discuss plots at length. Yeah, I'm quite glad he doesn't read my books, because other thing we haven't mentioned is that generally very raunchy, because that's another thing I'm very comfortable about talking about, except perhaps with my son. You don't discuss that part of the plot with your son? Well, sort of, but not on any level.

You know, I kind of go, well, she's living with two men and I think he, you know, he's 21 year old. He don't know what that means. Well, I was going to say, I don't know if you caught our programme yesterday. I said today's my first live programme of the year, but we just recorded this just for Christmas. All about whether it's good to commit your life to the page. So your actual story and not the ones that you create and how people can do that.

We had a lot of reaction. It was lovely how many people got in touch yesterday. And you can catch it on BBC Sounds with all the writers who contributed. But are you tempted to ever do your life? No, I've written 21 novels in 21 years. Honestly, I don't get time to do much living. I'm literally making stuff up. No, your life on the page. Are you going to do...

Oh, you mean a memoir? Yeah. No, I'm not that interesting. No, literally, literally, no, no. You'd all be so disappointed after the stuff I've made up, which is fascinating. Yeah, the real me is quite dull. I don't believe that. The Lady Doth protests too much. Adele Parks, it is all about the novels for now, for now. Thank you very much indeed for talking to us all today. And the latest one,

both of you, is out in paperback on Thursday. Thank you so much for all of your messages today. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.