Woman's Hour - PP Arnold. Labour and Women. Estonian Women Defence Organisation. European Women’s Football Championships

Episode Date: July 6, 2022

As Boris Johnson starts what could be seen as one of his toughest days yet as Prime Minister - after two of his most senior ministers dramatically quit, Emma Barnett speaks to The Sun's Political Reporter Noa Hoffman, who broke the story about MP Chris Pincher, and Conservative Baroness Kate Fall, who was the Deputy Chief of Staff to David Cameron when he was in No 10. The American soul singer PP Arnold started out singing gospel at church and found fame in the 1960s as an Ikette with the Ike and Tina Turner Revue. She moved to London for a solo career, supporting the Rolling Stones and enjoying success with hits such as The First Cut is the Deepest and Angel of the Morning. In a career spanning more than 50 years, she has worked with artists from Eric Clapton and The Small Faces to Barry Gibb, Paul Weller, Ocean Colour Scene and Primal Scream. She has appeared in musicals including Starlight Express, and most recently has performed solo at Glastonbury. She has now written her story in Soul Survivor, and she joins Emma to discuss her life and musicA group of Labour Party MPs and Peers is challenging the party's decision to turn down an application by Labour Women’s Declaration to have a stall at this year’s Conference in Liverpool in September. Known as LWD, they describe themselves on their website as “a movement to raise the profile of women’s sex-based rights within the Labour Party and the wider socialist movement.” We speak to one of those challenging the decision, Baroness Dianne Hayter - who is a former Chair of the Labour Party’s ruling body, the NEC. Maria Klandorf is one of a thousand women in Estonia who have joined the Women’s Defence Organisation. The women, who range from school teachers to architects, are all receiving training in the Estonian Defence League. They say they’re preparing for any future potential invasion by Russia. Today is the first day of the European Women’s Football Championships and tonight’s first England game against Austria at Old Trafford is sold out. After getting to the semi-finals three consecutive times at major tournaments, can the Lionesses harness the tactical experience of their relatively new manager Sarina Wiegman and the love of the roaring home crowds to get to the Final this time? We hear from Lioness and midfielder Ella Toone on her thoughts for the team and the championship. And Emma is joined live by Gabby Logan, the BBC’s Women’s Euros lead presenter and ex-Lioness, Fara Williams, England’s most-capped player and a BBC Women’s Euros pundit.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, it's Emma Barnett here. Welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. Since losing his health secretary and chancellor within minutes of each other last night and the resignations continuing this morning with a minister and parliamentary private secretary gone by 9am, a former aide to the prime Minister has described his current mentality as a scorched earth policy in which you're retreating and you burn everything to the ground as you go. That insight was shared with the politics website Politico. The next appearance from the Prime Minister will be in two hours time at noon for Prime Minister's questions.

Last night, the Conservative backbench MP, Roger Gale, whom it's safe to say is no fan of the Prime Minister, made a particular point I wanted to put to you today. He said Margaret Thatcher and Theresa May were honourable women and resigned, and that he would like to think Mr Johnson is an honourable man and will do the same, going on to say, the game is up, this is an open door, walk through it and if the Prime Minister won't do it, collectively the Conservative Party has to do it for him.

What do you make of that theory? Honourable women leaders have resigned. I mean of course some men have resigned, David Cameron resigned too, albeit in a highly specific set of circumstances after losing the argument over the European Union and our membership of it. But what is your take on that theory? We've only had two female leaders, of course, and both did resign. But is it honourable to resign? Is that a word you would use? And this morning, where are you at with this? Do you think Boris Johnson should resign? Text me here at Woman's Hour on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard rate.

On social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour. Or you can email me through the Woman's Hour website. Also on today's programme, music from soul singer Pee Pee Arnold, fresh from her Glastonbury set, aged 75. Another row in the Labour Party over some women being refused a stand at the party's annual conference. And Gabby Logan and Farah Williams, an ex-Lioness, who's the most capped player for England out of the women and the men, will be getting you warmed up for the women's Euros. Euros 2022, which kick off this evening.

Highly anticipated, of course, due to that pandemic delay. But Boris Johnson is starting what could be seen as one of his toughest days yet as Prime Minister after two of his most senior ministers, Secretaries of State, dramatically quit last night. Health Secretary Sajid Javid went first, followed just minutes later by the Chancellor Rishi Sunak, who said the public expect government to be conducted properly, competently and seriously. Well, I await your views on this as part of the public. Next came a series of junior ministers and aides tendering their resignations, including Birma Folami, who stepped down as vice chair of the Conservative Party live on television. This morning, I mentioned more before 9am, the Children's Minister, Will Quince,

who went on the television and the radio, you may remember, on Monday, talking to my colleagues here on the Today programme to defend the Prime Minister earlier this week and what he had been told was the truth, a version of events. And Laura Trott, a ministerial aide in the Department for Transport, has also quit this morning. While two men moved up into the Chancellor's and Health Secretary's respective offices, one woman made up a move up within number 10. Boris Johnson's now chief of staff in number 10 is a woman, Samantha Cohen, worked for 18 years for the royals. Well, joining me is someone who knows that role pretty well because she was the deputy to it.

It may have all slightly changed in terms of what the role does, but that's Kate Fall, Conservative Baroness and former deputy Chief of Staff for David Cameron. But before I come to Kate, let's go first to Noah Hoffman, a political reporter at The Sun, who was the one who broke the story about the Conservative MP Chris Pinscher, the former Deputy Chief Whip, his resignation last Thursday, which kicked off this latest political episode. Noah, quite a lot's happened since then. Good morning. Morning, Emma. Yes, you could say that. We did expect the story to have some very serious ramifications due to the nature of the allegations, due to the seriousness, and also due to the fact that this was such an open secret within Westminster. Every man and woman and their dogs all knew that this man had some very, very serious concerns attached to his name. So we knew when this came out, questions would be

raised about who knew what and why action wasn't taken further. So I think that this really was perhaps the straw that broke the camel's back in terms of wavering ministers who really weren't comfortable and just needed that one final reason to make the move away from backing Boris. But the majority on the payroll in terms of ministers and those supporting them, those private secretaries, have stayed? Yes, they have. Although I wouldn't be shocked if some of them perhaps changed their minds because we've seen some big names this morning. Laura Trott is seen as a rising star within the Conservative Party. She's very, very competent, smart, good with media, very switched on, so her resignation could have big

ramifications for those who are looking to maybe be the future stars of the Conservative Party. And then we also have names like Liz Truss and Ben Wallace who have been touted as future leaders as well. They're very tied up with the war in Ukraine and understandably perhaps think that now wouldn't be the time to make any moves, though that's not me saying that they will in the future. But it wouldn't be a shock if when things calm down a bit, when they're perhaps less busy with Ukraine, with Russia, they might make a move too. And I

think with every single resignation, it's a further wound to Boris Johnson. It's a further flame that he needs to put out and it's further pressure on others to act because who really wants to be the last man standing in this government? And what future would that person have? He perhaps views his deal with the electorate, not with those he has hired to be around him. And that's perhaps what he's still counting on. How long do you give him as a woman in the know, Noah? Do you know what? These things are so dangerous because Westminster, anything can change at any minute. I don't think he will be leading the Tory party into the next general election.

I think we'll watch what happens over the next week, particularly with the 1922 Backbench Committee. They've got elections to their executive coming up. And the executive is very powerful because they can determine when a no confidence vote in the prime minister is triggered. And that may change some of the rules around that as well. No, I imagine you're going to be someone we hear a lot more from and continue to talk to. I look forward to it. Noah Hoffman, a political reporter at The Sun. Let me bring in the former deputy chief of staff for David Cameron, the Conservative peer, Kate Fall. Good morning. Good morning, Emma.

Do you want Boris Johnson to stay? I think it's pretty impossible for him to stay now. Things are unravelling and they have been for some time. There is a sense that he's, you know, he's just staying for himself. Why is he there? He's lost his authority. He's not going to be able to continue running the country we have massive issues not just a war but cost of living crisis and he's he's lost his authority to rule there's no longer competency and the party just don't support him but never mind the party if i may say i know you're a member of it you're a peer of it the people might not want him to go i mean we don't know that there. There is a poll out this morning from YouGov showing it is now against him, if you like, the majority. I'm looking down the

text message console from our listeners. I haven't found one yet that says he should stay, but perhaps they aren't listening to Woman's Hour this morning. Well, I mean, I think you make a good point. I mean, it was three years ago when he did win, not three years ago when he won an election, was three years ago when he did win, not three years ago when he won an election, but three years ago when he became Prime Minister, and he did win a huge victory. And his sort of deal has always been over the heads of the MPs in many ways to the people of our country with a huge majority. But just look at those by-election results recently, not just the Red Wall seed crumbling, but the old coalition

that was very much a sort of coalition of my time in office also looks like it's crumbling. And there is a sense that the country isn't supporting Boris anymore. They don't like the fact that they don't believe what he says. And so I think you'll find that that is sort of the final death knell for Boris, a sense that the country isn't behind him, the MPs are coming to get him. I have just received the first message saying I don't think Boris Johnson should resign. It's appalling that the rats seem to be leaving what they think is a sinking ship. This has been an unprecedented time for our government and indeed world governments. Smaller damaging stories are being published in order to weaken the Prime Minister. The silent majority are never listened to and are too busy working to be heard in today's

world. No name at the end of that message, but I wanted to share it with you. I'll share with all of you some of the other messages too, but I wanted to get your response to the question I put to our listeners right at the start of the programme when I was quoting the backbench Conservative MP Roger Gale, who said Margaret Thatcher and Theresa May were honourable women and resigned. Now, you obviously worked also for a Prime Minister, a man who resigned. But what do you make of that theory?

Well, I thought it was an interesting thing to say. And I do think it was interesting, both Theresa May and Margaret Thatcher resigned. You know, they had ballots from their party and they won, but not with sort of huge amount of votes. And they went on to rule for a bit and then it all came unstuck. But I think an interesting point that there is a sense of humility and dignity in a resignation, rather than waiting to, you know, the bunker, the final day when you just can't go on for any longer. And I do think that message is an important one for

Boris Johnson right now, because I take the view of one of your listeners writing in, but I do think that, you know, Boris has shown himself to be a brilliant campaigner, but not a good governor. He isn't a great decision maker. There's been incompetence. It's not a decent and a government of integrity. And I think people are just fed up. Well, to your point about it being seen as honourable to resign, Kay, who's written in, should Boris Johnson resign? Yes. Although I prefer the public humiliation of him being dragged off the dispatch box far more satisfying i i mentioned about a woman who's got a promotion in all of this samantha cohen not a household name now chief of staff at number 10 and her nickname apparently is samantha the panther i'm not quite

sure why she used to work for the royals i don't know if you know her but but in terms of the work that's cut out for you as you as, as you put it, are losing authority and trying to be chief of staff of such an operation, how does that work? Well, I mean, congratulations on her job. I think it's interesting, isn't it, that having picked some MPs for those key roles in number 10, then they quickly moved out of the building, which of course is not something you can do if you you know your job is basically just connected to to the pm but look um emma they will just be firefighting today they're there and i think this is one of the problems with with boris remaining in office is um huge issues and yet they're firefighting they're not actually able to spend a lot of time running the country or in fact

thinking about how to make things better for the people of the country and I think that is the key key bit of the problem yes because of we were told yesterday it was only it was reported I think I think I read it across a couple of sites that a big meeting was happening between him and his inner sanctum the chief of staff chief of communications meant to be talking about cost of living tax cuts tax uh hikes as as well, all of that and how that fits together our lives. And instead, this issue, the whole issue, and what had been said and what hadn't been said was on the table instead. Just a final question to you, Kate.

You are a Conservative peer. If you feel so strongly about Boris Johnson not being a good governor, not being the man who should remain the leader of the country, why are you still a Conservative peer? Why have you not resigned? Well, I'm a Conservative peer and it often happens in politics that, you know, some people when in my time in number 10 didn't support our whole agenda and they remained in the party. And I haven't supported a lot of the Boris Johnson

agenda, but that doesn't mean I'm not a Conservative. And I hope that maybe whoever takes over that job later, I will be supporting their policies more. You're waiting to see. OK, we will see. Capefall, Conservative peer still. Baroness, former Deputy Chief of Staff for David Cameron, thank you. Let me give you a flavour of some of your messages

before I talk to my next guest about something completely different, a whole other world. Should Johnson stay or should he go, says Jude? I hope he stays. We'll have nothing to laugh at if he goes. Sue, no, he shouldn't resign. That would make him look vaguely honourable, which he most certainly isn't. Much better for all decent Tories, and there are many,

to force him out and leave him completely disgraced. That's how Sue puts it. Unfortunately, she says to go on, he'll continue to pop up as a speaker. It'd be great if he sank into obscurity, never again invited as an after dinner speaker. Can't see that happening, though, but at least he won't be able to do any more damage to the country. A rare message to add to the other. It may just be representative of who feels like texting this morning. If you've never texted a radio programme before, now's your chance. But a rare message here from somebody who is in favour of Boris Johnson.

Again, they may not be listening, though, or they may not feel so inclined. But if you would like to get in touch, I'd like to hear from you. Text me on 84844. I think Boris Johnson has done a great job with Brexit, Covid and Ukraine. Let him get on with it. What's the alternative? Labour, union backed, they destroy the country, reads that message. Well, we're going to come to the Labour Party in another row, actually, in short order.

Another one, Johnson should resign. His personality flaws are more apt for a secondhand car salesman than for the prime minister of a G7 country. And so it goes on. Please keep your messages coming in. Now, I did mention we'll move on to a new world, a different world, because who's just walked into the studio but the 75-year-old American soul singer Pat Ann Cole, best known as P.P. Arnold, who started out singing gospel at church. By the age of 17, she was married with two children when a prayer led her to find fame as an Iket with the Ike and Tina Turner Review. They came to London to support the Rolling Stones and then she broke away to find solo work. And in a career spanning more than 50 years, she's worked with artists from Eric Clapton

and The Small Faces to Barry Gibb, Paul Weller, Ocean Colour Scene and Primal Scream. And she's appeared in musicals too, including Starlight Express. And most recently, only days ago, she performed solo at this year's Glastonbury. Pat joins me live in the studio. Good morning.

And I should say, you've written your story now and what a life it's been and continues to be in the autobiography Soul Survivor. Good morning. Good morning, Emma. Lovely to have you here. What do you feel like when you hear the body of work like that? It's great. You know, it's it's I love everything that I've done, actually. I've been really blessed to work with, you know, so many great artists and producers. And so, yeah, I just want to do some more.

Exactly. Well, I was going to say, you know, we could start at the beginning, but why don't we start with Glastonbury, actually? How was that? It was great. It was great. I made it. I made it. I wasn't sure I was going to make it because I had had a bout with uh COVID oh you

know uh but I cleared yeah I was fine I cleared on the Thursday and I was performing on the Sunday and yeah and so what was the atmosphere like it was brilliant it was really nice you know I have such lovely supportive fans and everybody enjoyed the show. And I got some great reviews and good feedback. No, it looked like people really enjoyed it. I mean, I mentioned, of course, how you began and where you began. And it's certainly been a journey since then. But I wonder, why did you feel you wanted to put the story, if you like, behind the songs in a book?

Well, I started writing the book years ago. Did you? I started writing the book in 1994, and I actually lost it. Oh, gosh. Yeah, I was making a copy from Time Machine to a portable disc, and I lost my book. So it's a good thing it was my life story. Because you knew it as well. Well, yeah, and I had notes and things like that.

But when I rewrote it, you know, God works in mysterious ways, and I decided to rewrite it, and I did a lot of ancestry work because I thought, well, if people want to hear about the gospel music and the soul, I'm going to take it all the way back to the plantation. So I did a lot of ancestry work and all that history of, you know, slavery and those hymns and everything. And so, yeah, I think it worked out better in the end. Yeah, well, there is a lot in there.

And there's also your experience is unvarnished. You're very honest about some of the more difficult, very difficult things that happen to you as well as of course the wonderful things. I mentioned there you were young when you were chosen to be one of Ike and Tina's backing singers. That I'm

sure just changed your life. Well it certainly did because I had never had any ambition or any desire to be a professional singer. I was born into a family of gospel singers, so I grew up singing in church. That's just what I did. And I was trapped in a...

Unfortunately, I got pregnant when I was very young and I was forced to get married and I was trapped in a very abusive teen marriage. So I just said a prayer one Sunday morning asking God to show me a way out of the hell that I was in. And an hour later, the phone rang, and then my girlfriend, who wanted to be an iCAD and another girl who was supposed to go with them didn't show so they called me out of desperation and refused to take no for an answer hung up the phone they came and I lied and told my husband I was going shopping and an hour later I'm in I can Tina Turner's living room singing, dancing in the street. So, and, uh, you know, Tina kind of put this B in my bottom because after we did the audition, they, she goes, right,

girls, you got the gig, right? And I'm going like, Oh no, not me. I'm just here to help. And, uh, so Tina said, I said, I'm in big trouble. If, you know, I should have been home two hours ago, I'm going to be in trouble. So Tina sort of said, well, if you're going to get in trouble for nothing, why don't you ride with us up to Fresno and at least see the show? Well, Fresno was 300 miles away. So I had left home at 12 o'clock that morning and didn't arrive back home until 6 o'clock that next Monday morning. And so my husband, sure enough, he was waiting for me. And, you know, it was a very abusive marriage. And he hit me,

he hit me in the head. And it was as if he knocked some sense into me because I suddenly remembered my prayer. And that morning, I didn't have a way out. And so this was, God had answered my prayer. So I became an ICAT. And yeah, and it was the beginning. I was still married to him for a while after that. But yeah, it was the beginning of my professional career. And of course, we now know Tina Turner herself was going through a lot of pain and difficulty and abuse herself.

She really was, and that was very, very difficult for me to watch and experience that because I was quite a damaged young girl myself, very introverted and shy and everything, and having to watch her experience that abuse after she had saved me from my situation. It was a night. Was there a sort of sisterhood in that, do you think? Oh yeah, you know, Tina and the

Yikes, I mean, we were all girls together and we were the only girls on the road. Well, there was, I mean, we were all girls together and we were the only girls on the road. Well, there was the tour manager and a woman who booked the gigs. You know, so yeah, we were close. Yeah. You know, make up time, getting ready for the gigs. And hugely talented. I mean, what you were creating together was magical, even if the

backdrop of your personal lives at times were really difficult. Exactly. And, you know, working with the Ike and Tina Turner review was an amazing experience musically. I mean, I have to say, you know, this has been picked up from the book. You also chose to write about your own abuse at the hands of Ike Turner in the book. Yeah, yeah, I did, you know, because Maya Angelou is the inspiration for me just writing my story at all. I just love Maya. And, you know, it was like, if I'm going to write, write it, which I didn't know how to write. I've never written anything before. I just sat down and started writing. At the time, I didn't have anything going on. And I just decided to tell the truth. And I had never told anyone about that,

except for my sister years later. And specifically for people who haven't read the book, it's to talk about Ike raping you. Yeah, yeah. And the details of it is in the book it's to talk about Ike raping you yeah yeah and uh the details of it is in the book yes you know but I was a very young girl I was still jailbait really you know I was 17 when I joined joined that review and I had two kids and and uh I didn't tell anybody because if I had told my parents, they would have, like, insisted that I come home, which meant going back to my abusive marriage situation. I didn't want her to think that I was after Ike or anything like that because she was already dealing with that whole thing of Ike having loads of women and all of that. So I just kept it to myself.

I just decided that I didn't want to lose my job because that job was my way out of my marriage and the way forward to support my young kids. Has it felt healing, putting it in the book and sharing it? Well, yeah, the book was quite cathartic. And like now, I mean, I've never done any therapy or anything, so I'm doing my therapy in front of the whole world. So, yeah, it's quite amazing, you know, like, and going through the editing processes

and everything, every time, you know, having to go over it and over it and over it and it's really, you know, so emotional. Especially during the recording, the audio book was really emotional for me. I mean, I was going to say it just brings another meaning to the title, Soul Survivor. Yeah, it really does. And, you know, I look back and wonder how I got over really sometimes, you know.

But it was a different time. I was a different, I'm not the same young, frightened, you know, introverted, scared young girl that I was then. So I can look at that as it's the past, even though I'm actually just like it's just the truth you know and the truth will set you free and I never told my story I know anybody who knows me I know a lot of people in this industry people don't know me in the way that they will through you know know me through reading my book well you you do go there it's a very powerful account thank you very much for coming to talk to us and you do know a lot of people. You work with so many people and you did break away and do your own thing and have been doing your own thing ever since. And you also have a special relationship with the UK, I children grew up in the UK. And yeah, the UK is where everything has happened for me. All my music experiences, all my music, you know, it's just my second home. I live between Spain. I have a home in Spain as well and here. And my children, my son and my grandkids are all here. So many friends, you know, professionally and personally.

Yes. And Glastonbury was all ready for you. P.P. Arnold, Pat, thank you so much for talking to me, talking to all of us. The book is called Soul Survivor. All the best with it. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me on. Now to get back to politics, but a slightly different story, although I will reflect your messages which are coming in this morning about Prime Minister Boris Johnson, whether he

should resign, whether it's honourable to do so, with a comment from one of his backbenchers saying it would be, look at the examples of women, look at what Theresa May did, look at what Margaret Thatcher did. I will come to your views on that and whether he should or could or would resign very shortly. But a group of Labour Party MPs and members of the House of Lords are challenging the party's decision to turn down an application by a group called the Labour Women's Declaration to have a stall at this year's Labour Party conference in Liverpool, which happens in September. This group, known as LWD on their website, describe themselves as a movement to raise the profile

of women's sex-based rights within the Labour Party and the wider socialist movement. The Labour Party has told both organisations that the decision to turn down their applications, its applications, was purely a commercial one. And the applications for stalls were just oversubscribed and that they're welcome to apply again next year. For anyone who hasn't been to a party conference, numerous charities, organisations,

companies and pressure groups set up a stall in the exhibition area of the conference venue, which allows them to highlight their message to anyone attending. And one of those challenging the decision over LWD, just to remind you what that refers to, Labour Women's Declaration, their application, is the Labour peer, Baroness Diane Hayter, who sponsored the group's application. She's the former chair of the Labour Party's ruling body, the NEC,

and a former shadow leader of the House of Lords. And just before I come to you, Diane, I wanted to say we did invite members of the Labour Party on this morning. Instead of anyone coming on, we have this statement which says we receive hundreds of applications for conference stands every year, meaning it is always oversubscribed. Not everyone can be successful. Labour passed the law that protects women on the basis of their sex and trans people from discrimination. We stand by it. Let's get to what you think is going on, Diane Hayter. Baroness Diane Hayter, good morning. Good morning. The application process then, was it all as standard as you understand it? Was there anything untoward about that?

Yes, I mean, there are still spaces available. They've been telling us that there's no small spaces available, but we know there are big spaces available, and I'm offering that we will take one of the larger stands. They'll get even more money from us. My offer to the Labour Party is if there are no small stands available, which we would have preferred, we'll have a big stand and we know those are available. I'm afraid this is not the answer.

I mean, it has turned down a group of Labour-supporting women from the conference when Labour has done so much for women's rights. You know, I've been campaigning as a feminist for 50 years and nearly all the major advances we've had have been from the Labour Party and government. But this continues and we must continue to be there. What do you think's going on then? Because the Labour Party's line, as I've just read it,

is this is a commercial decision. It sounds like you do not believe that is the case. So what do you think is the real reason? I'm afraid that there are some people who do not want us to continue the sort of campaigning we've done for years, which is that there are certain areas that should be, you know, confined for women only. this is particularly and it's all in the equality act that was passed by the labor government um for example hospital wards same-sex wards um sleeping arrangements you know um changing rooms women's refuges hostels prisons women should be able as we've just heard from your last speaker you know women's solidarity is very important but also women sharing problems you know you had two women on

yesterday who'd bonded over the fact that they were both widows of young children and that spark that understanding of women is is one that the that women should be able to share so you just just hang on, if we could try and keep it focused for a moment, I understand what you're saying about the bigger picture of how you view women working together. But to be clear, you do not believe the reason that the Labour Party has supplied to us as a programme and to you and to this group? I'm afraid not. We applied very early. We are, you know, a Labour women's declaration.

There are still big stalls available and we're very happy to take one of those. I used to be chair of the party and we never would have turned down a group like us. I'm afraid there are some people who I think do not want a group campaigning for women-only spaces to be able even

to meet delegates and do that in a very safe environment for the Labour Party. We did invite the NEC General Secretary, David Evans, to join us on the programme, but our bid wasn't successful. We also issued an invitation to the Labour Party Chair and the Shadow Equalities Minister,

Anneliese Dodds. Again, she's not available today. She's out of the country, we were told, on other business. I suppose, you know, it's hard to get these answers to these questions that you're proposing without representation from them. But within the statement, it's clear that there is an understanding what you will be saying, you think is the real reason for this, because we have this line saying Labour passed the law that protects women on the basis of their sex and trans people from discrimination. We stand by it. What do you make of that as included in the response?

Well, it's interesting that they dropped in trans, isn't it? Because this has got nothing. Why have they suddenly dropped in trans? I support trans rights. I have campaigned for that for years. I've been involved all my life for family reasons with trans issues. So why, in the Labour Party Party response did they suddenly drop the word transit when we're a Labour group, a Labour women's group? I mean I think the hint is there. I think the fact they won't come on and debate this and I should say to you we have asked to talk to them in private. I have made approaches at the very senior level of the Labour Party that we will go and meet in, you know, in confidence and talk through what are their problems.

I mean, as I say, the fact they've dropped in trans suggests to me that there are pressures on them that somehow us campaigning just for women's rights, for human rights, for women. I mean, we're not very revolutionary, really. Somehow is at odds with trans rights. I do not accept that. Are there any areas of what was planned for the stand or communication around it, I've got no idea, that would be at odds with or perceived to be at odds with trans rights? Absolutely not. I mean, I know there are some trans activists

who feel that people who identify as women, that, you know, were born men, should, if they have been subject to domestic abuse, as they can be, should have access to women's refuges. Now, women who are escaping, we've just heard, you know, from your previous speaker, people who are escaping from male violence want to be in a completely safe female environment. And so there are undoubtedly, not many, but some trans activists who feel that keeping anything just for people born with a female body, with ovaries and wombs and all the stuff that we've got, is somehow against their rights. You don't accept that, but I suppose that's why trans has been included in the Labour Party statement, isn't it?

Because that's the perception and that's the concern. And very interestingly, they only told you that. They have never told us that. Now, I find that really interesting. It took till we were on Women's Hour for them to give that. They said it was a commercial decision. And they've suddenly said something to you that they've never said to us so what's the next what's the next move what do you think you're going to be able to do are you able to get a

meeting with if it is a commercial decision my offer to them and i assume someone's listening is we'll take the big stand we'll pay more money and if that is the reason then then they need to be able to give us... Give us a... Oh, you've just frozen. You've just frozen on me there, your connection, sadly to say. Because I did have one more question, if could, but you have just disappeared.

Sorry, but we were getting an idea of what was the next move and you have one more question. Perhaps we'll get an update from Baroness Diane Hayter, who is a Labour peer and was supporting the application of that particular group, the Labour Women's Declaration, which, of course, we wanted to hear about here on Women's Hour to have a stand at the party conference, the annual party conference. But as I mentioned, we did ask for representation from the Labour Party, but were unable to get it, but got that statement in lieu of it. And I should have said earlier, I meant to tell you, just in case you were wondering, we did invite the government on this morning, just coming back to our lead story, the lead story across the UK today about the future of the Prime Minister. We did invite members of the government on today or for them to put somebody forward to talk to us.

But again, we were rebuffed. No one was available. In case you're wondering why we're not hearing from any of those who have, the majority of whom still, have stuck around the Prime Minister. Getting your thoughts, thank you very much for these, on whether the Prime Minister should resign, whether it's an honourable thing to do, after examples were given of the only two female leaders we've had of this country doing exactly that. More messages have come in now on both sides

and more saying that Boris Johnson should stay. Let me try and reflect a couple of those as well as the others. Norma and more saying that Boris Johnson should stay. Let me try and reflect a couple of those as well as the others. Norma says, no, Boris Johnson should not resign. All politicians should get back working for the country and stop their self-indulgence. Another one, I have no political allegiance. However, I am an English teacher and I'm currently teaching the idea of bias. I do not think you are representing Mr Johnson correctly. He has made misjudgments, but also many successes. Thank you. No name on that particular message.

Just reflecting that whilst honourable previous women parliamentarians have resigned, current senior women cabinet ministers have not so far. Not sure this bodes well for future female leaders, says Pat on a slightly different point. How can we talk to our children, reads this message about right and wrong, telling the truth and appropriate behaviour? Why is Johnson still prime minister? Who are these conservatives who stand by time after time and turn a blind eye day after day? I still can't believe it's going on. I support Boris Steele, reads this message. I know his shortcomings, but there's a part of the Tory party who have never liked him and are determined to find a way to get rid of him.

You could find detrimental stories about most politicians. And I'm fed up with the media dragging up these stories and wasting public time that needs to be spent on the real issues. Just to say, I don't know if you saw this individual who sent this message. The prime minister, just before those resignations or as they were happening, was actually on the BBC last night apologising for his misjudgment and how this story about Chris Pinscher, the former deputy chief whip, was handled and saying he shouldn't have been promoted. So messages there on that. But I think Boris Johnson is the right prime minister for the time and the country overall is better with him in charge than anyone else I can think of. I'm a floating voter, by the way. Now, since the war began in Ukraine, an issue that many of you are bringing up also in your messages about the context we are in, the times we are in, more than a thousand women have joined, volunteered to join the Women's Defence League in Estonia due to concerns over the future safety of their country. Estonia borders Russia and the women, ranging from school teachers to architects,

say that they've made the decision to join because of worries their country could be a potential target for Russia. Just to say at present there's no public intelligence to suggest Estonia will be invaded by Russia, but the fear is real. Estonia was previously under Soviet control for over 45 years. Well, just before coming on air, I spoke to one of the women who has joined this defence group, Maria Ann Klandorf, who works primarily as a car mechanic. And I started by asking her what motivated her to join the defence group. Basically, the war, as I think it's the motivation for most of the people that joined it but for me I had the wanting to join the military when I was younger but when I was 11 I was diagnosed with diabetes and then I was told that I can't pass the medicals. So I just kind of forgot about that for many, many years.

And the day that the war started, I just went online and started looking at different options for me to help. And how can I help? What can I do? And I found out that there's this voluntary women's defense organization and they have no limitations to you basically you have to fill out a really basic medical form by today I think it's been changed that if you have a driver's license, you can use that medical form to apply. And so you did and you joined. Yeah, I did. I got my GP fill it out with absolutely no problems.

I gave it in with my application and about a month and a half later, I had this email confirming that I was accepted. And what sort of training have you received? some lectures on the organization, some lectures about safety, about how to put out a fire and self-defense. We got this as a lecture and as well as the practical part. I have done the cooking. That's also mandatory. You have to know how to prepare food in the woods. I suppose I wanted to get a sense of how prepared is this particular group for fighting to happen? How would you feel about putting that into practice?

Well, the basic training teaches you to do all kinds of different things so you can pick the right thing for you. There's also the medical part. There are some women that want to take on the first aid side of things. And then there's this military bit as well. And I'm currently going through a bit more in depthdepth training on these military skills. For me, this takes six months and two weekends per month. It is quite hard, but it is definitely more intense than the one that the basic training in the Women's Defence League gives. But why is this so important to you?

I know you wanted to join the military and didn't, but why do you feel you want to do this now and dedicate your time? For me, I think I like this country and I just want to keep it the way it is and I want to be able to do something, not just sit on my hands and see if it goes to hell in a handbasket. So I'm trying to do something. I suppose for us in the UK, what I'm learning and trying to understand from you is that this fear is real of what will happen to Estonia.

We do have some interesting neighbours in the east. Yeah. So the fear is, it's real. But since us and the Latvians and the Lithuanians, we're all part of NATO, it gives some security. So I don't think that there's a threat to us in the next day or maybe in a week, maybe even in a year. But the threat is real. So I would just like to be prepared for that.

And what is it about the women who've come together, this particular group? You know, is it important that it's women who have found a way to try and prepare together? Because that's also very striking. Well, Estonia is a tiny country. We have only 1.3 million people living here. So if you put all of our hopes on the men, that pretty much diminishes the chance that we have. But if we have women there as well, that means we have way more, well, let's say, firepower. And the women here, well, they all think the same way. We want to keep what we have here.

A lot of those women that have joined know what it was like being under the Soviets. And they don't really like it. So we have fought hard. We have two independence days. We don't really want to have a third one. So we're going to fight for that. And we want to be prepared. So all the women just, we're working towards having skills and knowledge

for if the worst case happens. Is it women of all ages, all backgrounds? For the Women's Defence League, it's all women from the ages of 18 and there is no upper limit so there have been I think there is one person at least who's currently around 90. Wow. Yeah but if I correctly, she's been in this organization for quite some time. A long time. Okay. And because in your main role, you work as a mechanic. Is that right? Yes, that's right. I've been doing this for six years. And before that, two years were internship and still learning.

So basically, I've been around cars for about eight years. And what do your colleagues make of you joining this organization? Well, when they heard, they were a tiny bit shocked, but they're pretty supportive of this, which is nice. Yes. As well as my family, everyone is really supportive. And I've dragged my mom to join the Defence League as well. Really? Yeah.

How old is your mom? She's 64. And she's ready? She's there, but she doesn't want to take on the weapons part. She would prefer to just cook for everyone. She wants to be the biggest friend to every soldier. Two incredible women, mother and daughter team there. Maria and Glandoff, thank you to her for taking time to talk to us today.

You've been talking to us all week about something that is finally here. Well, nearly here. About the Euros. The women's Euros. You've sent in some amazing anecdotes of your involvement with football over the last few decades and how much it's changed. Finally, today is the day. The first day of those championships. England is the host.

Tonight's first England game against Austria happening at Old Trafford is sold out. More than half a million tickets for all the matches have already been sold before a ball has even been kicked. All 31 games of the tournament will be shown live on the BBC. And not only do the Lionesses have an unbeaten run stretching back to September 2021, they've won all three friendly ties ahead of their Euro 2022 opener and they join Germany, Sweden, France and Spain on the shortlist of favourites.

Who better to speak to than Gabby Logan, one of the lead BBC presenters for the championship over the next two and a half weeks, and by Farrah Williams, an ex-Lioness who's the most capped player for England. And I just want to point out of both the women and the men. And of course, a BBC Women's Euros pundit. A warm welcome to you both.

Gabby, how are you feeling today? So excited, Emma. This is a delayed championship, obviously because of COVID. So it feels like the build-up has been coming for so long. But actually, that delay, I think, works in England's favour.

And it's, I think, as you just mentioned there, those three warm-up matches could not have gone better. The build-up through Serena Wiegmann's reign has been fantastic and it just feels like a really kind of like a perfect confluence of lots of brilliant things happening.

The rise of the women's game in the last year in the WSL and such a great style of football as well. So I can't wait till seven o'clock tonight when we go on air on BBC One. I'm looking forward to it too. I have to say lots of people getting in touch, women and men, who have only very recently, as they put it, given it a chance, given the women's game a go. I know that sounds wrong to you, Gabby, but it's true. Lots has happened over the last decade, the last 15 years.

And Farrah was part of the 2005 team when the championships were here then 17 years ago. And I'm sure Farah, in spite of her goals, will tell you that both the standard of the team in terms of its professionalism and also the way the tournament was received, it's night and day. You know, it doesn't detract from Farah's talents and brilliance as a player. But obviously, if you have a professional game where people are playing all the time in a professional league, the standard, the technicality is going to get better. Everything that goes around, the ephemera of the game in terms of the recovery and the rest and this S&C, everything is so much now kind of more akin to what we would expect from professional football.

So I understand what people are saying when they say that. And they're not being rude or, you know, being kind of ignorant of the past. I think the game has just come so far in such a short period of time really. Farrah how are you feeling good morning welcome to the program morning I'm you know I'm excited I didn't I didn't sleep much last night I felt like a player again but it was more the excitement that I'm going to be a pundit you know first time in a major tournament so I kind of had those same feelings where, you know, as a player, I couldn't sleep because I was just overexcited. I kept, you know, turning to my phone

and just looking to see if it was morning. So, yeah, like a big kid again, I'm really excited for the tournament. Well, here we are, nearly, very nearly. And what's your reflection on what Gabby was just saying about the way the game has changed in terms of the style of it, but also the reception? Yeah, I couldn't agree more with what Gabby was saying.

And, you know, I was lucky enough to play in a home Euros in 2005. But as a team and as players, we knew we was never ready to really showcase our game then. It was obviously a great opportunity for us to play and, you know, a very proud moment for us to play in a home Euros. But the game has moved on drastically since those times. We're talking 17 years. And I really do believe wholeheartedly that the game is in, you know,

a very good place and a place where we can really showcase, you know, women's sport in general. I think, you know, as Gabby mentioned there, they're full-time professionals now. They get the correct S&C. They have the right diet and nutritionist, you know, and they're used to playing in front of big crowds so going into this tournament

they're probably best equipped to really showcase the women's game. And they don't have to have a job on the side, they can do it full time Lucky them Did you have a job on the side? I had a few, I've worked in bakeries I've worked in supermarkets, coffee shops I was a coach

but yeah I mean the game is where it should be. You know, women before me, you know, obviously what I served the game and, you know, to try and get the game in a position it's in, you know, today. And there's still so much more to be done, but they're in a fantastic position and they deserve to be full-time professionals. And, you know, just be able to play the game where their sole focus is, you know, being the best they can be as athletes. Let me play you and Gabby something. We can hear from one of those playing in the championships this time. 22-year-old midfielder Ella Toon, who plays for Manchester United, is capped for the 15th time.

Spoke to Rob Bonnet, sports presenter for my colleagues on the Today programme. She shared the joys of scoring for England, something she's done 11 times for the senior squad already. It's an unbelievable feeling. Probably the best feeling. However many times you do it, it won't get any different. It's still, wow, I've just scored for England. And then you hear the crowd and then the girls running at you

and you're celebrating. It's probably what I did in the garden when I was five or six, pretending I'm scoring for England and celebrating. So, yeah, those moments are very special and they'll stick with me for a long time. But there's that feeling as well of just putting the shirt on and stepping out onto the pitch in the first place. Felly, ie, mae'r fomentau hynny'n arbennig iawn ac yn parhau i ddod gyda fi am ddiwedd. Ond mae'r teimlad hefyd o ddod â'r siwrt arno a chyfeirio i'r cyffwrdd yn y cyntaf. Mae'n rhywbeth nad yw'n byw yn hir ac mae'n rhywbeth rydych chi'n hoffi ei ddod yn dda. Rwy'n cofio fy nghymrwydd yng Nghymru gyntaf.

Roeddwn i'n bod yn 14 ac yn mynd i'r 15 oed ac fe ddychriais, waw, mae'r un peth rwy'n ei wneud nawr yw chwarae i'r gynraddion. Ac, ie, yn amlwg, fe wnaeth i fynd drwy'r grwpiau oedolion, heb golli'r cwm, ac wedyn cael fy nghymrwydd i'r cwm cyntaf a mi wnaeth fy nghymrwydd ddod yn ddwy. All I ever want to do now is play for the seniors. I obviously went through all the age groups, never missed a camp and then got called up to my first senior camp and I was just gobsmacked. I remember Phil ringing me and I was walking the dog and I was just like, thank you so much. You never expect it really. It's something you always want and you always dream of

and you work hard towards but when you get the phone call it's a really special moment. Obviously after this summer you're going to see the growth of the game. We've seen it so much in previous years. This summer is going to be massive for women's football. I think people will watch us in the Euros and think that they want to get involved and they want to come down and watch. The crowds are going to be bigger next season just due to this tournament.

Farrah, does that take you back, the excitement? It's funny, she mentions there about when you first get selected for the seniors and you get that call or that letter, and it's like you say thank you. You don't know how to express, you know, the feeling, the excitement of actually, you know, being selected for the first time for England.

So, yeah, you say thank you and you're like, I've just said thank you for being called up for my first senior score. Thank you very much. Yeah, it definitely takes you back. I mean, in terms of scoring goals, I've just said thank you for being called up for my first senior score. Thank you very much. Yeah, it definitely takes you back. I mean, in terms of scoring goals, I never had crowds like Ella Toome will have tonight,

you know, to score in front of. And, you know, it was always difficult. You really want to celebrate with so much emotion. But you never really, you never replayed. I was able to do that with the fans. They've got 75,000 tonight to do in front of at Old Trafford. I'm super excited for them. Gabby, you and the way this has changed and your role in all of this,

I mean, it will be very special this evening, won't it? It will. There will be goosebumps. We've got Alex Scott in the studio as well, who of course has been on a very similar journey to Farah in terms of the game and seeing the progression of professionalism. And Jonas Eidevall actually is with us, who's the Arsenal manager, the current Arsenal manager. And I think, you know, I first presented a women's football match when I came to the BBC in 2007.

And what I've seen and the commitment, actually, I have to say, you know, people like the late Lance Hardy, who was the editor of women's football, and he really pushed for those matches to go on the BBC, to go into homes when people weren't receiving women's football in quite the same positive way. And at the time time we were mainly showing international matches rather than the league and now we show the WSL as well and it's just it's been such an incredible journey I think 2012 was a bit of a landmark as well that Great Britain team playing in a packed out Wembley against Brazil and there will be girls in this squad women in this squad tonight who were 12 13 years old then and they would have watched those games and seen that as a normal

thing to play in front of a you know full Wembley those women now play in front of 50,000 at Wembley in the FA Cup finals so they don't have that kind of same baggage if you like as Farrah and her contemporaries did playing in men's shorts you know being given second class equipment they've risen through the profession with great equipment with the right kind of training and you know they they will look back and owe it to people like farrah and alex who trod that path but quite rightly they've you know now not got the kind of um oh we're not really supposed to be here attitude we're just here because we're a bit you know baggage free baggage free but nervous nervous because they want to do well we're gonna have to leave it there gabby i

am looking forward to your presenting tonight, to your commentary, Farrah. Thank you so much. What a delight to be able to warm up with you for it this evening. And I should say, at eight o'clock this evening, BBC One, England versus Australia. Back with you tomorrow at ten. That's all for today's Woman's Hour.

Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hello, I'm Stephen Fry, Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Prussia. Two, it takes you on a historical grand tour from naughty nuns who became stitching sisters to a globe trotting Maghrebi. And three, well, it's fun. And don't we all need a little bit of that at the moment?

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