Woman's Hour - Practical advice for anxious mothers. Burns specialist Professor Fiona Wood. Iran protests

Episode Date: November 15, 2022

The imagery around pregnancy is often of glowing women doing yoga with calm expressions. For many women through it can be a time of anxiety about the birth, the baby, the future. All perfectly natural but it can be hard to ask for or access help. A new book ‘Break Free From Maternal Anxiety’ A self-help Guide for Pregnancy, Birth and the First Postnatal Year’ offers CBT-based support. One of the authors Dr Catherine Green joins Emma Barnett to share professional and personal experience.We hear from Professor Fiona Wood a world leading burns specialist the reluctant subject of a new book ‘Under Her Skin’. She was the first female plastic surgeon in Western Australia (in 1991) and has been named Australia’s Most Trusted Person and National Living Treasure becoming a household name after she led a team that helped saved the lives of people injured in the Bali bombing.Women continue to lead protests in Iran. But many Iranians say speaking out against the regime brings real risks. Now according to State Media a court in Iran has issued the first death sentence to a person arrested for taking part. We get the latest from Faranak Amidi the BBC's Near East Women's Affairs Reporter and Rushanara Ali the Labour MP for Bethnal Green and Bow about what she wants the UK Government to do.A tribute to Sue Baker one of the original members of the Top Gear team who's died.Plus tampon tax campaigner Laura Coryton on new research which suggests at least 80% of the savings, as a result of the tax ending two years ago has been absorbed by retailers. Presenter Emma Barnett Producer Beverley Purcell

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. As the Prime Minister speaks on international issues, from calling Russia's war on Ukraine barbaric, to saying China is the biggest state-based threat to Britain's economy, at a meeting of the G20 countries, which is now underway in Bali. The government is also under pressure to respond to the latest reports about the female-led protests in Iran. We'll have more on that for you in a moment. But also on today's programme, I'll be joined by Fiona Wood, a woman who became a household name in Australia 20 years ago last

month when her pioneering medical approach was lauded for saving the lives and hugely helping some of those caught up in the Bali bombings. And eight years on, why the former student behind the hugely successful and popular with many tampon tax campaign might be starting a whole other petition. But I also wanted to make space today to ask you about the words of the former US First Lady Michelle Obama in her new book, the follow-up to her very popular first, Becoming. She describes her book as a toolkit to live boldly. And while she details living with a fearful mind and how to overcome it, she also admits that she hates how she looks all the time, no matter what. She says she's found strategies to be kind to herself

when she was talking to my colleague, Naga Munchetti on BBC Breakfast, saying she's still a work in progress, but facing herself each morning is something still kind of a challenge. And she continued to say every day she tries to find something to say positively. Have a listen.

It's really a shame that so many of us, particularly women, that we have a hard time just sort of looking at our own image and not tearing it apart and figuring out what's wrong. But I think that that's at the core of some of our unease and unhappiness, because if we don't start out by learning to love ourselves as we are it's hard to to pass that on to others um so i am working on it every single day so what was the thing you said today that was kind to yourself what have i said i i've said i love the jacket i'm wearing that's what she said on that particular day. I wonder what you make of that, though.

Michelle Obama, someone who, as my colleague Naga said to her, is seen as a powerhouse, is seen as confident, has now said she hates how she looks all the time, no matter what. She thinks that's the point of sharing it, that someone who's perceived as she is, that's why it's powerful and important to say it. But what do you make of that is it helpful is it unhelpful is it something else 84844 that's the number you need to text me here

to share your take on this and your response on social media we're at bbc women's hour you can email through our website or send a whatsapp message on 03700 100 444 intrigued to hear your response to her sharing that and her view of herself i think it's also worth saying she goes on to talk about how her view of herself as a woman especially she talks about being a woman of color that not seeing enough of herself growing up in society especially as a tall black woman she says That's what she also has struggled with about her appearance. And she said, you know, before the Serena and Venus Williams years, before we had the Women's National Basketball Association and other role models

and had those role models other than gymnasts to look up to, that was another point for her that she struggled with about her appearance. So your responses to that, very interested to hear and anything else, of course, you hear in the programme, please do get in touch. But first, women continue to lead protests in Iran. Let's get to that situation and the latest of it. The death of 22-year-old Marcia Amini in police custody in Tehran nearly nine weeks ago has energised a fresh generation to demand rights and freedoms. But many Iranians say speaking out against the regime brings real risks. At least 326 protesters,

including 43 children and 25 women, have been killed in a violent crackdown by security forces. That's according to Iran Human Rights. And now, according to state media, a court in Iran has issued the first death sentence to a person arrested for taking part in the protests. A revolutionary court in Tehran found the defendant, who was not named, had set fire to a government facility and was guilty of, quote, enmity against God. Human rights groups have warned that authorities might be planning hasty executions. Well, Farhan Akhamedi, who's helped us out on this story quite a few times over the last weeks and rights groups have warned that authorities might be planning hasty executions. Well Farah Nakomidi who's helped us out on this story quite a few times over the last weeks and is staying close

to it she's the BBC's Near East Women's Affairs reporter joins me now. Farah the first death penalty issued that's what's being reported what do we know? So this was something that people and human rights activists and a lot of journalists were warning about from the beginning of the announcement that very sketchy, they claim that because the case is still open and ongoing, they are not going to be able to share information about the case. We know that five other sentences were handed out as well. They were sentences of five to 10 years in prison for destroying public property and vandalism. But what is something that everybody is actually talking about, like the human rights activists are warning, is that the fear of having mass executions happen in Iran is a real fear. Fifteen hundred people are on trial right now. Many of them might be accused of raging war against God, Mahareb, or corruption on Earth,

Mufsada Felaz, or Fasada Felaz, which are all crimes that can be punished by death. So the fear is real, because when you also look at the track record of the Islamic Republic, it is a very bloody track record. Between 15,000 to 30,000 political prisoners were executed in the 80s in two three-minute trials and after being tortured so and then after that also have had the kidnapping of Ruho Lohzam, a political activist outside of Iran who lived in Paris. And he was tricked by the security forces, intelligent forces of Iran a couple of years ago. And they took him back to Iran and they executed him after a show trial and after his forced confessions were broadcast on television. So your point is that this is not a regime that is adverse to using these sorts of punishments and has done.

Exactly. So the fear is very real. And when human rights activists and journalists are saying this is dangerous and people's one around female prisoners, which I wanted to ask you about. There's an idea if female prisoners are virgins, that they must be raped before executions to prevent them from entering heaven. What have you heard about that? I don't know if you've seen any of these posts. Yes, I've seen them. And to be honest, this is something that was rumored in the beginning in the 80s and then confirmed by certain clerics, very high level clerics later on, that this was happening in the prisons in the 80s with young women who were arrested and who were being executed in Iran. So it is not something that is absolutely fiction. Whether it is happening right now, we don't know. It is hard to, again, confirm because information coming out of Iran is very sketchy. But it is not something that never happened. It has happened and there have been clerics who have confirmed that this was happening in the prisons of Iran. One of them was Mu'taziri, a very high level cleric close to

Khomeini, the founder of the Islamic Republic. So he had confirmed that this was happening in the 80s, especially in 1988, when those mass executions were happening. But we don't know. We don't know if it's happening right now. No, we don't know. But that's important to get that history of when it had been confirmed. Yeah. And Emma, it's very important to understand that sexual harassment and abuse of female prisoners in Iranian prisons is something that happens regularly. And female prisoners, political prisoners, have reported about that

and that they have been sexually harassed and abused during their interrogations. Even men have confirmed that this was happening to them. I'm just thinking ahead to next week when the World Cup begins, of course, surrounded in controversy about it being in Qatar. But actually putting that to one side, because I'm aware England's first match is against Iran. And I wonder about the Iranian footballers. We've read some reports about some of them talking out and lending support to the female supporters. What are we expecting? Because there's been reports that the England side, for instance, might be wearing armbands in solidarity with those from the gay community.

Is there anything about Iranian football, as we expect next week, their debut on this World Cup? Unfortunately, I mean, that was something, you know, the football thing is a really hot topic in Iran at the moment. Unfortunately, there were photos released and videos released of the football team meeting with the Iranian president, Ebrahim Raisi, yesterday. And from the looks of it, it seemed that they had no plan on showing any kind of form of protest or solidarity with people. They were all sitting with arms crossed, heads down, and really respectful to the president, smiling.

One of them even spoke and said that the situation in Iran is a bit unsettled for certain reasons. He didn't even mention it so people um started attacking the team and they don't call it the national team anymore they call it the team of the islamic republic because they feel that the team is not um in solidarity with the people and those who have lost their lives in the past two months so um and we we also heard from Ali Dai he's a superstar um football superstar in Iran a former member of the national team of football he came out publicly and said that he's not going to go to Qatar although he has been

officially invited to go he's not going to go because he wants to show solidarity with the people of Iran. So we are seeing this kind of rift between the people and the football team. It seems that the football team is standing more on the side of the authorities and the Islamic Republic rather than the people. Well, we'll see what happens.

I mean, FIFA also under pressure from certain quarters to not even allow Iran to play next week because of this. As ever, Farhanak, we'll talk again, I'm sure, but thank you for the latest information that we can say we have and also some of that history, which is very useful at this time with a difficult period in Iran's, you know, in the country, but also in the ability to get information. Farhan

Akhamedi, the BBC's Near East Women Affairs reporter there. And your messages, I'm sure, will also come in about this, especially as we do think about Iran on the global stage and next week at the World Cup in Qatar. Well, earlier, just before coming on air, sticking with Iran and pressure and the view of how the UK is responding. I spoke to Roshanara Ali, the Labour MP for Bethnal Green, and I asked her to explain what she wants from the UK government in response to these protests led by women. Well, I think it's really important that the UK government joins the US in calling for the UN's Commission on the Status of Women for Iran to be removed from that.

In the light of what's happening in Iran and the persecution of women, with over 300 peaceful protesters having already been killed since September, and some 12,000 who've already been imprisoned, it's very strange that they haven't been removed from that commission. I know that the US has already called for that. I think it's right that the UK should be doing the same. I also think that the international community needs to do much more to apply pressure on the Iranian government

to bring an end to the persecution of protesters, particularly women. What we heard yesterday is also extremely disturbing with announcements that prosecutors could face the death penalty. Yes, that's what we understand at the moment. State media reporting the first death penalty issued, which we're going to be looking at on the programme today. But just, if I may, come back to what you're talking about with regards to the United Nations. This is the role of Iran or the United nations this is the role of iran or the united nations commission on the status of women this is a cross-government body looking at women's

role across the world absolutely and what we've seen is a repressive government that is a member of this commission it's completely wrong that they should be continuing to be a part of that commission. What we need is the international community to say very clearly that what the Iranian government is doing to women and doing to protesters in that country who are seeking freedom, who are seeking the right to be able to live their lives in peace without harassment, without the state-sponsored hostility, that the international community will not tolerate that and in fact will not be rewarding the Iranian government, which is what this is.

They are continuing to be a part of the international community, a part of an organization that's supposed to be protecting women, empowering women and fighting for their rights. You say in your piece of The Times today, it's like putting flat earthers in charge of the space programme. Very strong words. As you say, you've talked about the US ambassador to the United Nations saying that Iran's role on the commission is an ugly stain

and has called for Iran's removal. the commission is an ugly stain and has called for Iran's removal. What has our government said to you? But in the chamber, the minister on the day said she would relay the points to the lead minister, Lord Ahmed, who I have made contact with, and he is considering this. I hope that the UK government takes swift action in joining the US in calling for Iran to be removed from the UN Commission on the Status of Women. It's the right thing to do. But we need to do more than that. I was going to say, the Commission, I suppose, is one signal. But what else are you looking for Rishi Sunak, our new Prime Minister, to do? Well, we need our government and the new Prime Minister to work with? Well, we need our government and the new prime minister

to work with the wider international community to apply pressure on the Iranian government to bring an end to the violence, to bring an end to the persecution of women in Iran. We need to stand in solidarity with Iranian women and the other protesters who've joined women who are being incredibly brave in the face of actions being taken by the Iranian government, which has caused death, which has caused thousands to be imprisoned. That means at the international level, working together to apply pressure on the Iranian government. Otherwise, this is not going to stop. More women are going to be killed, more are going to be imprisoned, and we cannot continue to allow this to happen. And so are you specifically talking about sanctions? What are you talking about? Because

that's been the program for a long time. Absolutely. I think, obviously, there are already sanctions. What we need to do is make sure that further action is taken to ensure the Iranian government takes notice. And this is stopped because we've seen so much violence against women, against peaceful protesters. And if there are appropriate sanctions that can be applied, then they must be considered. Roshanara Ali, the Labour MP for Bethnal Green, talking there about what she wants to do with the UN and that Women's Council. We don't know if there will be the same move from the UK yet.

We have been in touch with the Foreign Office this morning. A spokesperson issued this statement saying, we do not speculate on future actions. But yesterday, the UK and international partners announced coordinated sanctions on Iranian officials who are leading the violent repression of protests in Iran, sending a clear message to the regime that the, to my colleagues at BBC Breakfast, in light of her new book coming out. One line in it that's caught many people's attention is how she feels about her look. She says she hates how she looks all the time, no matter what, and goes on to talk about how she tries to combat that. And I've been asking for your take on that, because she's spoken about what a barrier this is to women. A message here, I'm so sad to hear Michelle Obama finds her appearance challenging, as do many others.

As a therapist, I specialize in helping almost always women to learn to like and respect themselves. It's a process of them listening to their internal dialogue, becoming aware of any self-criticism and exposing it. It can be changed. We can learn to like and forgive ourselves. It's a new way of thinking. It works on everyone. And I've enabled people to think differently, says Jessica. Why does it matter how much a woman or a man looks? Why does Michelle Obama subscribe to and encourage the belief that looks are more important than knowledge, kindness, intelligence, generosity and humor? That's one response to this i'm not sure she's saying it's more than but it's definitely a very important important enough for her to say this so starkly in a book someone else saying i think it's so helpful michelle obama said this i think of her so holistically beautiful and someone i aspire to be more like that she also struggles demonstrates beyond doubt the pressures on women and the expectations we in society place on ourselves are completely unreasonable and destructive. And so it goes on about how do we change this.

And again, Michelle Obama says she can't stand looking at herself, reads this other message. My first thought was that this was a self-indulgent position from someone so powerful. But on reflection, I think it's a courageous act and admission. It shows vulnerability to make such a statement. Michelle Obama is a human being and she is the perfect. And that is inspiring that she isn't perfect. Excuse me. Women are conditioned, reads this from Sarah, to be unhappy with themselves. That's how the fashion and beauty companies make their money and stephanie one more if i can says i was horrified when my 18 year old daughter told me that my negativity about myself had been absorbed by her and damaged her mental health i had no idea i was even being negative about myself sadly i still am your messages keep me coming in and i'll come back to them perhaps even my next guest will have a view on it if we can get to it but my my next guest, Professor Fiona Wood, is a world-leading burns specialist. She's a trailblazer in her field, the first female plastic surgeon in Western Australia, and has been named Australia's

most trusted person and national living treasure. She became a household name when 20 years ago last month, she led a team that helped save the lives of people injured in the barley bombing where she was able to demonstrate her pioneering spray on skin technique which reduces permanent scarring in burns victims she's the reluctant subject of a new book under her skin and fiona for this work in australia and notoriety grew up in west yorkshire and hails from a fifth generation coal mining family. She joins me now from City Beach in Perth. Good morning. Good morning. How are you?

It's lovely to have you here. Thank you for making the time. I know you're a busy woman. And I'm going to just start with that reluctant subject of a new book. There does seem to be a trend in your career when I was reading about you and some of the things that you've been a part of that you don't necessarily want to have the spotlight or even talk about the fact you're a woman in this field but you've sort of been put in that position a few times? Yes I think it's interesting isn't it though that you know whenever you're trying to avoid something it follows you around and so I think it's with the book I told Sue who I done a grand job, actually, just to go and look and talk to other people. She didn't need to talk to me. She could do it from other people's perspectives. But she kind of hounded me over 17 years and did pin me down in the end.

And this is the result. And of course, if people haven't come across the book or anything else written about you, they may know you because of the work that I mentioned 20 years ago, which was marked last month when you were leading that team with this pioneering approach. Last month was the 20th anniversary of the Bali bombings. You looked after about 28 of the victims. How do you remember that experience? I think it was really, well, it was challenging a couple of weeks ago as we had to really recognise

the suffering and to acknowledge that for some people it's part of their healing journey and for others it's part of their triggering of the horror of what's happened and so as the years go by you realise there's a lot of suffering

that's been around that and people who didn't get to build their memories with their kids or their loved ones. And all that needs to be acknowledged. And I think such an event, many around the world, unfortunately, too many, we have to work out how we use these things to try and be better going forward be better people better humans on this planet i think you've heard that already earlier in your program yes well i also wondered if if you made a connection with those people with their families have you stayed in touch yes i think burn injury is often for life. And your needs will change over the years. Maybe need a scar release or support in the psychological sense.

So we talk about the scar being on the outside, of course, but on the inside as well. And we're always there. And so our patients link back. And they've helped us direct our research as well. They're part of the team. And they're part of that broader family if you like and we'd really need to focus on what will make a difference to them and you know there's so many questions to ask there's so many areas we could research but it's all it's very important that we ask people who've been through it what

is important to them so yes for many different reasons. And many of our patients stay connected with us for a long time. When the first victims were coming in, did you realise then you were going to use this pioneering spray on skin that you'd been working on? Or how did that come about? Well, I think it's really interesting. It was a bit of a misrepresentation, if you like. Basically, when you're in a disaster situation, you do best what you do every day, from the equivalent of London to North Africa. So one person in that situation could be considered a disaster. And so we've spent a lot of time in this space trying to optimize care along the continuum. And so what we did from the early 1990s was use cell therapies, skin cell therapies. By 1995, we were spraying those skin cells

on. So in 2002, the window to our world opened and people asked what we were doing. And in times before the internet and social media that we have now, I think we were very isolated here in Western Australia and what we were doing was novel. but it wasn't the first time we did it by any means. No, no. But you're right to say that the world then tuned in to it. Yes. Yes. Yeah. And I think the window to our world opened for lots of reasons. But there are certain things that captured people's imagination.

And, you know, we had, as I say, we had spent a lot of time planning and working out how to respond. And it wasn't just here in Western Australia, it was across the whole of the country, because we'd spent time working with oil and gas companies, to be perfectly honest, on how would we respond if there was an explosion in a remote area, where often our oil and gas companies work. And so with that basis, with Woodside Petroleum, we've gone across the whole country with our teams in each of the capital cities, our focus burns teams under our Australian and New Zealand Burn Association. And so when it came to it, we'd actually put the plans to the Australian Health Minister's Advisory Council in July of 2002 for their approval. And so we had got a very robust network and plan that we then actioned those months later. Even if you've done all the best planning in the world, it must be different, though, when you're faced with what you were faced with. And I wonder on a human level how how you cope with that i think it is i remember there's some people

say what do you remember and so i remember the relief on the faces of people as they were wheeled into the emergency department yeah i remember looking at the extent of injuries and the complexity of the injuries and thinking well we've got a big job here uh but i also think that you have the whole concept that you can do something about that and change that suffering the the trajectory of that suffering is a real privilege and i've kind of i take that to the table you know I have had an extraordinary education I mean I went to St Thomas's Hospital med school as a you know on a full grant in 1975 and you know that education is not just mine it's all the people that around supported me and it's a privilege to give back and so that's been what I bring to the table really and so in that circumstance when it's you think

you're on that ledge of is this overwhelming you've got you've got to get a grip and realize that this is what you're trained for and however you feel it is trivial compared to the person who's actually in that situation and it's you know as I say it's it's not just the privilege it's the responsibility and it's the the role you play is actually focused on reducing that suffering and getting the very best outcome and i always say and learning to make sure you do it better next time but but a lot of people i mean you're now a national living treasure in australia as a british woman do you like did you cope well with that title i think it's really funny that i can be a proud yorkshire last and a proud australian at the same time i'm very fortunate you know in that kind of environment

yeah and uh you know we've been able to push the diversity across the whole uh the surgical cohorts as well i mean i'm not i'm no longer the only female by a long way uh and although i was going to say on that point i know that you um you've had a couple of occasions one you you wrote you were asked to write a piece in the lancet about women in surgery but you didn't really want to write it you wanted to talk about men and women or how did you respond well i think the title negotiated title was women and in brackets men in surgery because i think it's really important that we understand that yes engaging in diversity is really really important but it's also not at the expense

of then uh marginalizing or demonizing others we need to be we need to understand we're all in this together and there are you know we've got to understand how we facilitate each each and every one of us to be the best version of ourselves and to work out okay well who's best at this and yes we need quotas we need to give opportunities but then we need to stand back and understand and be without bias yes because i know you've also well you've also been in a position, if I can just say, where you've been asked to give a talk about being a surgeon with children. You have six children and, again, not necessarily the most comfortable request. Well, I think what you're referring to is I'd heard on the grapevine

that one of my kids' girlfriend was at med school. And they'd had a talk. All the kids that were interested in being surgeons had gone along to this talk by a female and a male surgeon. And they said, well, you know, if you're interested in surgery, you have to be really aware that that may influence your capacity to have a family. And so I rang up and I said, you know, I'd like to come along here and I'd like to speak to your med students. So I went in and I said, well, I'm a surgeon, my husband's a surgeon, and we have six children. So unless you're prepared to commit to having six children,

you do know that you'll have a problem here, don't you? And, of course, everybody laughs, right? Everybody laughs. I go, well, when somebody came here and told you you couldn't why did you believe them the only thing that's really important is self-belief and i think we especially at my generation we it's beholden on us to facilitate that self-belief in our youngsters to actually put them in a position so they bring their best self to the table there's no point in being average you need to bring your best self to the table. There's no point in being average. You need to bring your A game to the table. And so how are we going to do that?

And we're certainly not going to do it by telling people they can't or they shouldn't because we're biased by our own experience. I've recently had a course to go across the whole of the country and speak about research to our young medical researchers. And I've said, you know, I want to get a movement that says yes when somebody comes to you with an idea and it can be in any field instead of saying no and leaving that person crushed and the idea flopping on the floor you say yes it doesn't mean you have to do it it means you need to collect connect people have Have a coffee. The idea may be stupid, but you give them a framework to explore further.

Saying yes is a powerful thing. What do you make of, if I can, just very quickly, Fiona Waller, I've got a lot of response to Michelle Obama saying she hates how she looks all the time, no matter what. Does that fit in with what you hear and how you potentially feel? I don't know what you make of that. I think it's a really interesting angle to sort of exposure.

I say, like you say, it exposes a vulnerability. I mean, I find it fascinating. And personally, you know, there are certain things that miss me because I've been so focused on, you know, on medicine and surgery. I mean, I'm not this sort of, you know, I love clothes and I like nice things, yeah. But I haven't had the time, and maybe I should take a bit of time, to make myself more aware of the vulnerabilities in this regard around me. Because certainly I think it's sad that it's not what's on the surface. We're all the same on the inside.

I know, you know, we've got to focus on something more than what reflects back in the mirror on a visual, that surface layer. Let's take the layers. A lot of our listeners getting in touch along those lines as well, wishing it was more like that. It was interesting just to get a reaction from you because you sound like a woman who's definitely on a mission still and also trying to get people to think about things of how they can do it rather than why they can't, specifically women.

Professor Fiona Wood, thank you for your time this morning. Well, thank you very much indeed for your interest. Thank you. Good to have you on the programme. Yes, more messages coming in. Someone saying here, I'm not surprised by Michelle Obama's revelation. The culture we live in is increasingly encouraging

what we call body monitoring. It's pervasive. It destroys our self-esteem. While diverting our energy from more important matters, we need a profound culture change. But keeping us insecure keeps us shopping. So we can't quite see this happening in growth and the economy.

I wonder if any men go through life disliking how they look to the same extent women do all their lives, says Caroline very simply. And so it continues. I'll come back to those messages shortly. But back in 2014, a student, as she was then called, Laura Corriton, started a petition to end the so-called tampon tax, the VAT levied still on menstrual products. Over 300,000 people joined the original campaign that argued the tax was sexist.

And in January 2021, the government finally axed it. Two years later new research suggests that at least 80% of the savings as a result of that tax ending at the beginning of last year has been absorbed by the retailers rather than passed on to female customers. Well that student, no longer a student, joins me in the studio now. Laura, good morning. Good morning, thank you so much for having me, Emma. Quite a few years on. Can you say what the, just first of all, I talked about the finally coming to an end in January of last year. That meant what? So much. I mean, at one point, I kind of thought maybe it wouldn't happen in the end. So the government did say that they would end tampon tax back in 2016, two years after we started

the petition. And finally, it happened in 2021. And as you know, lots of generations of women have been campaigning to end the tax as well as men before me. So yeah, it was just a huge moment to kind of have that finally be axed. And as some put it, you know, if you could look at it, there was a result of being able to do that and being free to do that because of Brexit and also the ability to be outside of the EU's rules. Without going into that again, though, because that was what you had to talk about, I suppose, as it was happening and in the run up to it happening. There's now some analysis that's being done, which shows that perhaps women are not receiving the benefit. Yes. So this research by the Tax Policy Associates, they have found that there was essentially

an increase in a lot of prices in so many different products, from toothpaste to diapers to tampons and period products in December of 2020. And then in January 2021, there was a decrease in prices across the board. But then those prices increased again in February. So while some supermarkets and retailers are saying they did lower the prices in January 2021, that was not only superficial, but also across the board in all kinds of products. So in reality, we didn't end up getting that reduction in price for a long period of time, we only got it for a month. And that was due to there being a spike in prices the month before.

So yeah, this research has shown that at least 80% of the savings has gone straight to retailers, which might not seem like a lot. But in total, the government had said previously that tampon tax made the government in revenue 15 million pounds every year. So that is a lot altogether. A UK government spokesperson has said we kept our promise to scrap the tampon tax to make sanitary products more affordable and urge retailers to pass the savings on to shoppers looking back at what was said at the time though about those savings and what could come to women uh the treasury said at the time ending the tax would cut each 20 pack of tampons uh and uh and each 12 packs uh sorry so seven pence and then five pence each 12 pack of pads saving the average woman 40 pounds over her lifetime,

which, of course, over a lifetime isn't a huge amount. But you're saying that's not going to happen? Well, it hasn't happened so far. So, you know, this campaign was about so much. It was about trying to tackle period poverty because we know that 10% of girls miss school every single month because they don't have access to period products because they can't afford them and we also know that 50 percent of school people who need period products don't go to school at least one day a year because they don't have access to period products so this is a real problem it might not seem that much over a lifetime but it really does impact people's

ability to really do things and engage in public life but it was also about period stigma and about tackling that as a symptom of sexism. So, you know, the government said that they shouldn't capitalise from this tax and now retailers are. So we want to make sure that that ends finally. I mean, retailers, some of them have pushed back against this, as you've mentioned, saying that they did reduce their price of products at the beginning of last year. And you're saying that they've gone, the analysis shows it's gone back up. Gone back up, definitely.

Because, again, why talking about this now is salient in people's minds, and apart from the fact I always think it's important to go back to stories and see what's happened next and how things have progressed, is ahead of the autumn statement on Thursday where we're talking about the cost of living and how this government's going to respond.

What would you say to those who, there has been some criticism of even the importance of getting rid of this tax, for instance, the Oxford University Centre for Business saying richer women were always more likely to benefit than poorer women in terms of who's actually going out and buying this in the first place and may have got some of this back. This wasn't the best way to redistribute any sort of money around the purchasing of menstrual products. What do you say to that? Well, I say that this, as I say, campaign was about so much more than just the finances. It was about tackling period poverty, about tackling period stigma in general, which impacts a lot of

people, especially low income people who might not be able to afford period products as they currently are. So yeah, to see this campaign as just about the money is definitely falling short of what it was completely about. But now that you've got some of this analysis and you refute what some of the retailers are saying, what are you planning on doing about it? So we've started a new petition. So please sign and share if you'd want to. So we started four days ago and we've got already almost 2,500 signatures. I think we're about 20 off just before. Sorry, what's the focus of this one?

So this petition is tackling the issue that's been raised in this new research. So we're asking five main retailers to lower their prices forever and not just for that one month in January 2021 and to basically either drop their period prices altogether or to prove that they already have if that is the case and if that's what they're arguing. So yeah, we want to see those major retailers finally drop their prices so that we can stop talking about 10-point tax. And this just be something that we no longer have to worry about. What would you say to the idea of materials, the prices of things going up, the global economic climate? So this research took that into account.

They took into account inflation rates and general prices increasing across the board. So that's completely fine. But this research also showed that manufacturers have lowered their prices, but it's the retailers that haven't mirrored that. So they're, in a sense, just increasing their profits by that 5%. So yeah, we basically want to see that those prices match the manufacturer prices so that no one's really losing out. It's just that five percent is going back to the people who are buying the period products so this time is all about the government it's about the retailers it's about the retailers completely what do you do when you're not fighting this you've been doing this for some time i know um so yeah i run a sex ed organization

called sex ed matters and we do like consent workshops mainly in schools um as well as period workshops too and i imagine also some views on what we've heard from Michelle Obama this morning fits into that with esteem. Definitely it's such an interesting analysis of beauty standards in general especially as you were saying how like black women are impacted by beauty standards to perhaps more extent than others. Yeah I think it's really brave of her to say and I think it's something that a lot of people can relate to. They can relate to but quite a lot of other people are upset that she sort of feels she has to say it especially from the position that she has developed so it's an interesting insight

there's a debate there as well about the focus if you like on looks. Laura thank you very much for coming on for the update. Laura Cora is in there starting in another petition around tampon tats, but a slightly different focus this time, the retailers instead of the government. And again, these messages keep coming in. A message actually in response to what Professor Fiona was saying just a moment ago. I loved what Fiona said about focusing on who we are on the inside and not external appearance. Fiona Wood is full of wisdom, says Camilla. Another message here. Be in no doubt that lots of men go through the same daily disappointment with the way they look, Emma.

We are subject to the pressures of looking a certain way and conforming to a perceived attractive form. It's shallow, but it's the society we're all in. I hope your cold gets better, says Jamie. He's plumbing in a shower. Yes. Sorry about that. It's pretty awful. But you are keeping me clear,

clear eyed and clear headed this morning with your messages. Keep them coming in. And I think what's interesting as well is that my next guest who has come in to talk about something she's got personal experience of, something called maternal anxiety. It also relates to this

about how we have thoughts going around and around in our minds, which Michelle Obama also talked about, that she can't sometimes deal with very easily but specifically around maternal anxiety far from the image of a glowing pregnant woman doing yoga with a serene expression what if pregnancy is a time of thoughts raging in the mind that will not easily calm what should you do Dr Catherine Green consultant clinical psychologist in the Perinatal Mental Health Service in South West London and St George's Mental Health NHS Trust is one of three co-authors with Dr Victoria Bream and Dr Fiona Chalakum of Break Free from

Maternal Anxiety which is a new self-help book for pregnancy, birth and the first year. Catherine Green, good morning. Good morning. It's lovely to be here. Lovely to have you. How do you define maternal anxiety, first of all? So I guess very simply, maternal anxiety is the experience of anxieties, which we know is a kind of normal human emotion that occurs either during pregnancy, ahead of birth, or in the first postnatal year. And typically, women that experience, I mean, it takes very many different forms, which we kind of talk a lot about in the book. But typically women are kind of preoccupied

with something bad happening, either to them or their baby, either during pregnancy, through birth, or feeling that they're not equipped or kind of somehow good enough to take on the tasks of parenthood. So those are the kind of key themes that we see. A lot of focus obviously is on postnatal and post, you know, after you've had

the baby. Do you want more focus to be on pregnancy? I think we want more focus on anxiety in general. I guess we know that the common mental health struggle that tends to be talked about kind of very often is postnatal depression. And yet what we know from the research is that actually the most common mental health struggle for women during pregnancy or the first postnatal year is anxiety. And yet that isn't really commonly spoken about. very common in in pregnancy particularly women often worrying very specifically about certain aspects of their pregnancy or about birth which we can um which is often talked about as tocophobia um what's it called tocophobia okay yeah specific type of you were yeah so um so that is one of the most common forms of anxiety but it but it affects women across um you know ahead of

conception as well as through pregnancy and into the kind of into early parenthood and that yeah that was certainly the case for me and what yeah so i was going to say what can you say about what happened to you so i had my first baby back in 2015 and um i i mean i worked in an anxiety disorders clinic at the time so i was kind of you, feeling like well equipped to kind of take on this new challenge. And I guess the first sign of trouble for me was kind of on postnatal ward when she cried. I just felt this overwhelmingly intense panic. It was a really kind of physical feeling. I felt utterly overwhelmed that I kind of didn't know

what to do I didn't know how to stop her crying that everybody around me would be kind of like um annoyed angry with us kind of about to tell us off it was the sort of you know talking to you about it now it kind of sounds kind of um silly in a way but actually it was it was so intense and at the time I we just had a really long difficult birth experience lots of people were saying you know just relax enjoy your baby you're just exhausted um and I thought okay I'll get better when I got home and it and it didn't and I um yeah I was really consumed with fear about leaving the house, about having visitors over. For me, it was very specifically about what if she cries? What if I can't stop her crying?

Other people are going to notice. They're going to be annoyed and they're going to look at me and think, God, what a useless, pathetic mom that can't kind of settle her baby. Thank you for sharing that i mean if you're in that situation yours was after the baby was born if you're in the run-up to to having what should you do because you might not think you should go and see someone about it or talk about it because it falls between stalls yeah and i think what's frustrating is that kind of you know like you talked about at the very start um very often what's portrayed to us as women, you know, in the narratives around us in the run up to birth and in the media is this sort of boundless joy, you know, cherish every moment. And I think that kind of adds pressure to women to like feel a certain way for their baby to behave a certain way. And so when that's not happening, it can feel really anxiety provoking

and it can feel really hard to speak up because if you don't see yourself reflected in the kind of imagery around you, you can end up thinking, well, this just must be me. This is normal, but I just don't cope with it. But also if you go to the doctor, should you go to the GP? Yeah, absolutely. They may say then, well, have you had issues with depression? I mean, having recently only completed the midwife questionnaire,

that sort of 58 question thing where you share everything. You know, it's very black and white, actually, I thought, the questions, the language about depression. So if you're not depressed but you're anxious, how do you communicate that and What treatment should you get? So what I would really encourage women to do is if you notice that you're feeling anxious and that anxiety is persistent and it's preoccupying and it's stopping you do things that you kind of otherwise wouldn't ordinarily want to do or be able to do. Or it's sucking the joy out of things. That was definitely the case for me.

Please do go and talk to your GP or talk to your midwife and explain to them how anxious you're feeling and the effect that it's having on you so it's not just that you're anxious it's what it's stopping you from doing and it's what it's getting in the way of and that's really important to highlight or if you're someone that's a loved one you know a grandparent or a partner that's listening and you notice that this is what you know your loved one's struggling with please encourage them to go and get some help we know that the you know we've got decades of research that show that cognitive behavior therapy which is a certain type of talking therapy is incredibly effective for anxiety difficulties and there's more and more recent research that fiona's been involved in that really highlights how effective it is in this period as well and it can be delivered in a really time efficient way which

we know is important. Fiona you're co-author we have a different Fiona on earlier yeah medical field so just yeah no no it's fine it's best to find so you can be referred to that yes absolutely so it's actually the same response isn't it though if you're having I know with post-natal there could be drugs prescribed as well but it's the same route it's a talking absolutely the same route so you talk to your gp talk to your midwife talk to your health visitor or any other professional that you trust explain what's happening explain how anxious you feel explain that it's getting in the way of enjoying your baby or doing the things you want to be doing. Every area in the UK has access to... Or in advance of your baby, that's your point.

Yes, exactly. Every area in the UK has access to free talking therapy services. We also have new specialist perinatal mental health services if you're struggling more significantly. And if you are pregnant or you have a baby under one, you should be prioritised for psychological treatment in line with NICE guidelines. So that's what I would encourage people to be asking for. I mean, we've got a message here from Beth who says, my goodness, this discussion on anxiety when the baby cries is jarring.

It's exactly what happened to me. This could be someone reading out my thoughts after having had my first in 2014. Another one here, 12 years on and maternal anxiety has never left me. And another one, feeling so much for the speaker about maternal anxiety. I empathise. It's so hard to feel anxious about a crying baby. It may help to grow into an understanding that it is not our job to stop our baby crying. Providing a loving pair of arms which they can cry until they're ready to stop is enough. Understanding that freed me.

But if you do go in for therapy, you talked about cognitive behavioural therapy, you refer to a CBT, that's about changing, I mean, if you could describe it, perhaps for our listeners who aren't aware, but that's about changing the way that you're thinking about things. Yeah, so, I mean, CBT is a type of therapy and it's there's two stages the first is really making sense of kind of the difficult feelings that you're struggling with and then it's about learning practical strategies to actively kind of work your way out of it and

the kind of central kind of idea in CBT is it's not the situation we find ourselves in so it's not the crying for me that was causing the anxiety it was the interpretation or the meaning that I was attaching to that that was driving up the temperature on how anxious I felt so the ideas for me that you know if I didn't stop her crying people would judge me they would you know have a go at me they'd be mean that they'd be thinking I was pathetic and useless that's the meaning that I'm attaching, rather than, as your listener's saying, thinking, oh, she's just crying because she's communicating something to me and all babies cry.

And actually, if I get out into the real world and I pay attention to babies crying, maybe I'll find out that people don't notice as much as I fear. But I couldn't do that until I started the therapy that I then went on to have. I obviously was a TK of seven months pregnant or so. And I'm aware that there's also anxiety about having anxiety while you're pregnant. Absolutely.

Whether that then harms the baby. You know, you're already concerned and then you worry that worrying is also harmful. Yeah, and it becomes a tangled web. What is the answer on that? Well, I mean, it's a really, it's tricky one, because I think often women, you know, you know, have these sort of studies highlighted them that shows that stress kind of, you know, has an impact on certain outcomes for babies. And there is some research that suggests that there's, you know, potentially lower birth

weights or and sort of particular obstetric outcomes for babies. But I suppose what I would say is the majority of women who experience anxiety don't have those outcomes and the most important thing you can do when you're feeling anxious is to get help for the anxiety or to start tackling that as the problem. To take it seriously? Yeah absolutely. I mean there's a message which very much speaks to this from Julie who says it's so good to hear that work's being done to help women with anxiety in pregnancy and afterwards i had my babies at 85 and 90 i was anxious through both pregnancies and with my first daughter for at least a year afterwards i knew it wasn't postnatal depression and unfortunately i was too nervous to speak to my gp or health visitor i was a young mum of 23 and i sadly felt embarrassed to ask for help very very briefly thank you for sharing that

but i think it shows the issue exactly that you're talking about in this book by michelle's we've got so many messages about what michelle barber said she's talked about ways to overcome a fearful mind she likens it to a life partner you didn't choose what's a fear i know you don't know her but what's a fearful mind versus anxiety or do you think they can be in the same space they're in the same space so i guess when i talk about when i think about anxiety anxiety is a sort of a way of encapsulating our body and mind's kind of system if you like for alerting us to danger so anxiety affects what happens in our minds so it affects the content of our thoughts it affects how we feel physically so there's all kinds of physiological changes that happen when we kind of feel anxious. And it affects what we pay attention to and it affects what we do. So an anxious mind, I guess, is part of anxiety, for sure.

Dr. Catherine Green, the book's called Break Free from Maternal Anxiety. Thank you. I just wanted to tell you about one of the original members of the Top Gear team, Sue Baker, who you may or may not know. You may remember her work, but she has died. That's in the papers this morning. Top Gear, not a programme perhaps you do associate with women, but it was actually Jeremy Clarkson who replaced her on the programme. She appeared, though, on more than 100 episodes of The Car Show until 1991, a real trailblazer for women in motoring. She set up and ran the motor racing news service based at the Kent Motor Racing Track Brands Hatch and was a bit from Sue Baker from an episode of Top Gear from the 90s, talking here about the fate of Jaguar. It's not been an easy week for Jaguar,

with their profits sent nosediving by fluctuating exchange rates. And the German car market's always a tough one for them, fighting against Mercedes and BMW on home territory. So, to steal a bit of thunder here, and perhaps to cheer themselves up, they're launching the 1990 XJ6, with its engine uprated from 3.6 to four liters. Now that pushes the top speed up to 140 miles an hour. It also improves the acceleration

at the bottom end of the rev range. At the same time, they've made a few changes inside. They've reverted to a much more traditional style dashboard and come away from the rather glitzy and a bit controversial fluorescent one. Good to hear the voice there of Sue Baker, one of the original members of the Top Gear team who has died, but a pioneer and a trailblazer for women in motoring. Sue, again, more messages on Michelle Obama talking about her appearance,

saying, I think she's very brave to speak out about her dislike of her appearance. It's enlightening to know someone as gorgeous as her feels this way, and it's so common for women, and may even help to know someone Michelle feels this way will help women who deeply question these feelings about themselves.

But Gillian's email to say, help, I'm beginning to think I'm abnormal. I like my body and how I look. Thank you very much, Adib, for all of your messages today. Huge range and some of our themes overlapping and feeding into each other. As ever, great to have your company. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time.

Join us again for the next one. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered there was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies

I started like warning everybody every doula that I know it was fake no pregnancy and the deeper I dig the more questions I unearth

how long has she been doing this what does she have to gain from this from CBC and the BBC World Service The The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.