Woman's Hour - Preterm birth, Devil Wears Prada, Forgotten Children

Episode Date: November 14, 2024

Preterm birth is the leading cause of neonatal death in the UK. Today the House of Lords Preterm Birth Committee have published a report calling on the government to do more to reduce the risks of babies being born prematurely and to improve the lives of those families who are affected. Anita Rani discusses proposed changes with Nadia Leake, who gave birth to twins eleven years ago at just 22 weeks and author of 'Surviving Prematurity,' Caroline Lee-Davey, CEO of the charity Bliss, which supports parents and families of premature or sick babies, and Baroness Laura Wyld, a member of the Preterm Birth Committee.A Georgian heiress and her husband are suing a property developer for over £36 million after buying a mansion and discovering a “moth infestation”… “of extreme proportions”. The couple describe killing up to 100 moths a day, watching them land on their children’s toothbrushes, plates of food and cutlery. And they are now seeking damages including £50,000 for moth-shredded clothes. The property developer denies all claims. Well, it's that time of year where you may be getting your winter woollies out and we wondered what's the best way to deal with such an occurrence? Anita is joined by Harriet Walker, Fashion Editor at The Times, who has been having her own nightmare experience with moths.In the next instalment of Woman's Hour's week-long series Forgotten Children, which looks at the impact on families when one or both parents serve time in prison, reporter Jo Morris speaks to Emily (not her real name), whose husband was sentenced to prison for crimes he committed against her. Emily discovered that, not only did she have to face the stigma of her children’s father being in prison, but as a single-parent she also struggled to access services to help her children cope with their father’s imprisonment. As a new musical adaptation of The Devil Wears Prada, with lyrics contributed by the American musician Shaina Taub and music by Elton John, hits London's West End, Anita is joined by the show’s leading ladies, Vanessa Williams, Georgie Buckland and Amy Di Bartolomeo to discuss the enduring appeal of this story. Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Rebecca Myatt

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Good morning, welcome to Woman's Hour. We'll be discussing the recommendations from a new report out today about the prevention and consequences of premature or preterm birth. This will include talking to one of my guests about her experience of what it was like to give birth to a preterm baby and the impact on her and her wider family when her baby died. This is a gentle signpost to say that we will be hearing a story that some of you may find upsetting.

Also on the programme, a brand new musical has hit the West End and it may well be an instant classic. It has all the right ingredients. It's the stage adaptation of the iconic film, The Devil Wears Prada, music by Elton John and starring Vanessa Williams. Fans of the film and musicals will not be disappointed. Vanessa, along with the other two lead actors, characters Andy and Emily, played by Amy Bartholomew and Georgie Buckland, will be in the

studio very soon. And as it's that time of year when you may be getting your winter woolies out, how many of you are pulling out drawers and finding that those dreaded moths have chomped their way through your favourite jumpers? We wondered what's the best way to deal with them? Share your tales, but more importantly, your advice. Get in touch in the usual way and of course you can share your stories and opinions on anything you hear on the programme this morning, we welcome them. It's the text number 84844. You can also email us by going to our website and the WhatsApp number is 03700 100 444 and if you'd like to follow us on social media it's at bbc woman's hour that text number once again 84844

but first the evidence is unequivocal the government's target to reduce the rate of pre-term births from eight percent to 6% by 2025 will not be met. That's the finding from a new report by the House of Lords Pre-Term Birth Committee published today. Pre-term birth is the single biggest cause of neonatal mortality in the UK. This report is the end result of an inquiry looking into how that statistic can be improved in England. Among the recommendations, the report calls on the government to put greater focus on the needs of parents as well as develop the maternity and neonatal workforce. Well, joining me to tell us more is Nadia Leek, who gave evidence to the

committee of her experience. She gave birth to twins preterm and has written a book called Surviving Prematurity. You may find some of the details distressing when we speak to Nadia. Also in the studio are Caroline Lee Davey, who is CEO of Bliss, the leading UK charity for premature babies, and Conservative peer Baroness Laura Wild, who sits on the preterm birth committee. A very good morning to all of you. And thank you for coming into the studio to discuss this. Caroline, I'm going to come to you first, because I'd like, before we get into the report, first of all, for those who may not have experienced it, what is a preterm birth and what are the common circumstances?

So a preterm birth would be any baby born before 37 weeks of gestation. People will typically know that due date is at 40 weeks gestation. So people who might think they've had a baby two or three weeks early actually would still count as full term. But preterm birth, anything before 37 weeks. There can be all sorts of reasons for a preterm birth. Lots of them we don't know. We would call them spontaneous preterm births. A woman may just go into labour suddenly and unexpectedly for no prior reason. There are some clinical reasons relating to the woman's health that might bring on preterm birth conditions like preeclampsia.

It's more common for women who have twins or multiples. So if you are expecting more than one baby, it's more likely that those babies will be born early. And there are some, if you like, personal characteristics or demographic factors that we know are higher risk for preterm birth. So women from ethnic minority communities, women from socioeconomically deprived backgrounds, we know are at higher risk of preterm birth. But actually, we don't know why. What we do know is that for every family who experiences a preterm birth, it's a really profoundly distressing and disruptive

thing to happen compared to the narrative we all have about having a baby taking your newborn baby home after a day or two in hospital you know sharing that baby with your friends and family and really having that cuddle you know snuggle time with your baby in those first few days at home having a baby born early very likely whisked away from you in the labour suite onto the neonatal unit is a hugely distressing experience for families and ones where we know they need lots of support. Baroness Wilde, what's the report found? We know this morning that the target of reducing premature deaths by 2% will not be met by 2025. Firstly, I think let's understand what that figure means. How many children are we talking about here and why won't the not be met by 2025. Firstly I think let's understand what that figure means

how many children are we talking about here and why won't the target be met? Well the causes of preterm birth are very complex as Caroline said we think that the target was set with certainly with the right intention in 2019 but what we heard when we talked to the witnesses was that there's a lot of different things going on here so Caroline talked about you know different social backgrounds different ethnic backgrounds different health indicators that cause pre-term birth so a number of the witnesses said by having this one six percent target we're not sure we're actually looking at this in the right way and that's why the committee has said to the government well as

part of the maternity safety strategy, it is really important that you go away and you come back with what you think is an achievable target or indeed a set of targets that look more clearly at the different groups that we've talked about. Caroline, the report found that more needs to be done, as you've just said there, Laura, to identify the women that are at greater risk to prevent these preterm births. So how important is it to get it right?

It's absolutely crucial to get it right. You said in your introduction, preterm birth is the leading cause of neonatal mortality in the UK and globally. And it's also a really significant factor in ill health for children and adults, indeed, as they grow up. We know that if we can prevent preterm birth, but also if we can get the care right for those babies who are born early, the lifelong impacts for those babies and families, but also for, you know, the national budget, health and education spending and the like, is significantly improved. So it's vital that we get this right. I think at the beginning when you described how different the experience is for someone who has had to go through this, I think that's the moment

when it doesn't matter what your experience is, we all sort of tuned in to listen and understood that something needs to be done. So because the psychological impact of this experience was also the focus of the report. How key is that? This is absolutely the heart of the issue. Bliss hears from parents every day whose baby's in neonatal care, desperately sick, and their experience can inform their whole life, the baby's life course, the family bonding. And at the moment, we see that that support for families

to be with their baby and be wrapped in the care around their baby just isn't there, isn't consistent enough. If you imagine as any new parent, you expect to be with your baby 24-7. Typically, parents have to leave the neonatal unit at the end of the night and go home. There's no accommodation for parents to stay with their baby overnight. And compared to your expectation to be with your baby baby to wake up in the night to feed them we hear from parents saying it feels like they've been ripped apart as they walk out of the hospital in the evening and those psychological consequences of that separation can be very very long term.

Nadia welcome to the programme thank you for coming in to talk to us how important is this review why did you feel that you wanted to share your story? As soon as Harrison was born and his brother Rafe, who sadly died at three weeks old, we knew that the circumstances we were in were so far from what we wanted. We'd been desperate for our family. Our twins were the product of the fifth attempt of IVF and we had been trying for so long. So when we arrived at the hospital, unfortunately at 23 weeks pregnant, to be told that it was too early, I was fully dilated with bulging membranes. I didn't really know what that meant at the time, but I understood that I was about to deliver.

It was imminent and there's nothing they could do. So not only were we in a situation where these babies we'd longed for were set to be born and then die, we were told we could hold them in our arms and they could take their last breaths with us. We then got to the point where the care team there said, actually, let's give this a go. We will try to intubate these babies, which is to insert the breathing tube to help them survive. Where were you? So we were at the wonderful Barnet and Chase Hospital who saved our children. And again, this story meanders a bit in that we live in the northeast of England. I'd come to Hertfordshire for a family celebration at 22 weeks pregnant, thinking what could go wrong?

And on the way home, this is why we ended up at Barnet and Chase on the approach to the motorway. I said to my husband, I'm feeling a bit uncomfortable. Let me use the services. And there was bright red blood evident. So that's what led us into the nearest hospital, which was Barnet and Chase, and this night of absolute terror where we stayed overnight. Had the boys delivered at any point from then on,

that would have been their last few hours alive. So the journey continues in that they decided to save the children we um were then transferred and this separation that happened so quickly i delivered the boys at about 6 p.m by midnight they were transferred to queen charlotte's in hammersmith fantastic hospital there in unit there but i wasn't taken to well we couldn't leave't leave to go to Queen Charlotte's until the following afternoon. So I delivered our children who we were told were going to die. They saved them. They moved.

It was the right thing for them to be moved to a unit that could support them and stabilise them. But I didn't see my children again until the following afternoon. How was that experience? the emptiness left in you when your child is literally inside you one minute and gone the next I slept because I'd been awake for 24, 30 hours at that stage

but it was fitful and I was up and dressed by about 6am the next morning desperate to get out and go and find my babies they were across London. When did you get to see them? It was about 2pm the next day so sorry so um to we went to the this hospital where they spent most of their time at that point. Rafe died in Queen Charlotte's at three weeks old, and our journey continued with Harrison. And the separation, so because we were actually in London when we live in the northeast,

they managed to find us some accommodation, which very rare to have accommodation so near your baby so that was life-saving for us all that we could actually be with him as much as possible that is not the case for so many families and this is what has brought me to continue to advocate and campaign for families who need that additional support to be with their families. If you have other children at home, now these were our first children. So I could spend all the time I wanted to with Harrison and Rafe. But there were so many barriers to keeping families together and this is what this work is about.

And it was, you know, my heart swelled when I saw in the report talking about accommodation, talking about family integrated care and keeping families together. So tell me what you think could have been done differently for you and what you spoke about. Yeah. So because, and this is where my real understanding of how different other families' experiences comes from. So we had our babies in London. We stayed in London for about 10 weeks and then transferred back up to the northeast once Harrison was well enough. And what I saw there was that the difference in care was around the environment, it was around the staff ethos in how they would

support families to be together. So in London, through sheer luck, we had accommodation near our family. We had a department who included us in all care decisions, who very much enabled us to be parents and have those moments of intimacy and love and bonding. And those firsts that are just so precious to pick your baby up. And they really supported that and enabled that for us when we moved to the second hospital back in the northeast they were very much practicing a I would say a less evolved model of care called family-centered care and at that stage our role in our baby's care and and development was lessened a little bit just through the model of care. So I'll give you an example.

Unfortunately, Harrison's first bath was in this second hospital. And at the time, the nurse says, well, I'll show you how to bathe your baby. And the nurse bathed our baby while we watched and took a video of it and looking back you're so disempowered yeah when you're in any hospital environment you are beholden to the people who are looking after you so we watched and we enjoyed it at the time but looking back that was our baby's first bath and i did not touch him these are the small things that now there's been so much education so many um initiatives now to think about first for families that first bottle that nappy change the things you take for granted at home that unfortunately in a care situation and this could be months worth we

were in hospital for over four months where those things might not happen and you can't get them back and in the case where your baby dies it's lost forever yeah it's crucial caroline well just to add to that i mean nadia tells very compellingly the impact that has on parents but we also know there's very clear evidence that that model of family integrated care that parents being partners in their baby's care is best for babies there's really clear research shows that babies are likely to go home from the hospital quicker have fewer infections do better longer term so we know there's there's a real case for it from the baby's perspective as well as from the family's perspective it must have been so difficult.

I'm still thinking about you, Nadia. You're grieving one child and then you have this desperate situation where you don't know what's happening with Harrison. And you just have to go with what the professionals around you are telling you, right? Absolutely. Because you don't know what's the right thing to do. Absolutely. And I will say, I never questioned the medical care. Yeah, of course.

We were looked after so well. It was the things that make you a family that were taken away on occasion. And those are the things for me that led to the long-term mental health concerns, PTSD even. When Harrison came home, I would pick him up in the night, as you would do to feed your baby, but I could see his dead brother's face when I was holding Harrison. So just, you know, the... And were you given support?

The understanding of the impact of a neon neonatal stay it's getting there but I would say most most health care professionals in the community don't understand what you've been through and therefore the support that's offered is often not what you need so I did go to my GP and I said I'm not okay and I was offered bereavement support, but that wasn't the problem. Why are we only getting this report now, Caroline? It's a really great question. I mean, it's an excellent report. It's a very comprehensive, I'd say, overview of all the issues, the latest research and most importantly, the insights from parents. But it does feel like it's a long time coming. Research has been slow.

I think it's one of those areas where there hasn't been the investment in the research. As with lots of areas of what starts out as women's health, as well as baby's health, I think there's just an assumption that we don't need to worry about that. So there's definitely a really important call in the report around investing properly in this area of health, both in terms of the research, but also in terms of the care. And what we've tried to do is really root our recommendations, the committee's recommendations, in the experiences of families because, you know, there are complexities within the report,

but ultimately this is a report about babies, about mothers and about families. And I did just want to take the chance to say that Nadia gave evidence to the select committee along with we had um 52 witnesses Nadia was one of them and I'll never forget the afternoon that Nadia um and her friend and colleague gave evidence and when they'd told their story and that you know we waited until we started questioning you could have heard a pin drop yeah in that room um and that's why you know we are absolutely committed to you know seeing this report through i don't think we'll forget hearing this story your story nadia i've got i've got to ask about your boy harrison how is he now harrison is a 12 year old boy doing 12 year old boy boy things um he is

absolutely wonderful um just just back to the prematurity, he is autistic, he has ADHD and these are the things that are at higher risk for babies born preterm, especially early preterm. But he is smashing life and he's well liked at school. His teachers are extremely proud of his progress and how he's doing. And as parents, Martin and I could not be more proud of that boy. He's beautiful, bubbly, and just a joy to be around. Yeah, and I'm sure you're aware of this because it's an ongoing conversation, but according to the NHS, preterm births are suggested as a possible factor in whether someone is more likely to have ADHD and autism.

Caroline, I'm sure you're aware of all of this. Also, can we ask about rafe as well i think we have to thank you so rafe was our smaller boy the boys were born at 510 and 540 grams to about the size of a block of butter in the fridge and i remember uh they were in incubators next to each other and i remember saying jokingly, probably to lift the tension, gosh, he's gorgeous. Harrison, you better have a really good personality. Your brother's going to get all the girls. But he was a gentle, beautiful little soul.

And I must commend the team at Queen Charlotte's for the bereavement support they gave us. They gave us the space to show him our love even after he was gone and to start that journey of healing and again that's time you can't get back um he is very much a part of our family we have another son called Mason both boys are well aware of their brother Rafe and we celebrate him every day. Wonderful. Baroness Wilde, the government have pledged to improve maternity care generally and we've got a statement from the Department of Health and Social Care. They've said, while change will not happen overnight,

we're working urgently to address stark health inequalities and ensure all women and babies, regardless of background, receive safe, personalised and compassionate care. We have committed to training thousands more midwives and we will tackle wider social determinants of ill health which increase the risk of pre-term birth by shifting the focus from treatment to prevention as part of our 10-year health plan. Do you have faith that the report will be acted upon? Well we heard from the minister towards the end of the sessions and personally I did feel that the intent was there

certainly you know and I'm encouraged by the response but ultimately you know time will be the test we will the government will have to respond to the report formally it will be debated in the House of Lords and you know the evidence will come from parents in the future the statistics are important but the most powerful and compelling evidence is the evidence that we hear from parents. And we will certainly keep the pace up in terms of holding the government to account on this. And Nadia, how hopeful are you that this might bring about change? I'm hopeful these recommendations are doable. And they will make the world of difference to families. And these children are the next generation. These are the people that we keep trying to invest in

for the good of this nation. You know, they will cost money down the line if they're not looked after now when they're in hospital. So I am hopeful this is doable and it will make the right changes. I want to thank all three of you for coming in to speak to us, especially you, Nadia, for taking the time out. Thank you you so much Baroness Laura Wild, Nadia Leake and Caroline Lee Davey. We also have a statement from the NHS. They said the NHS is committed to ensuring all women and babies receive high quality care before, during and after their pregnancy. And while the health service has made improvements to maternity services in England over the last decade, we know further action is needed.

We're increasing the number of midwives and obstetricians in our three-year delivery plan for maternity and neonatal services, which is supporting midwives and doctors to reduce the number of babies born early and provide the best care when preterm birth cannot be prevented. Once again, thank you to all three of my guests.

And if you've been affected by anything you've heard this in this discussion you can find help and resource links on the bbc action line website the text number this morning is 84844 now a georgian heiress and her husband are suing for over 36 million pounds after buying a mansion in notting hill and discovering a moth infestation of extreme proportions the couple describe killing up to 100 moths a day watching them land on their children's toothbrushes plates of food and cutlery and they're now seeking damages including 50 000 pounds for moth clothes. The property developer denies all claims. Well, it's that time of year where you may be getting your winter woolies out and we wondered what's the best way to deal with them?

Well, Harriet Walker, fashion editor at The Times, joins us to tell us about her own nightmare experience with moths and how to deal with them. Morning, Harriet. Hi there. So you can relate to this? Well, not the 36 million parts. No, or the 50,000, well, maybe the 50,000 pounds worth of damages.

I don't know. But tell us about what your experience is. It felt like 50,000 pounds at the time. It probably wasn't. I've actually had moths twice. The first time I had them was in my 20s in a rented property. And I just didn't know they were there until they were absolutely everywhere. I just remember lifting up a cushion and under it just seeing hundreds of eggs, all these larvae, sort of maggoty.

The thing is, they looked like snot when they hatched. So I lifted up this cushion and I could see lots of tiny eggs and all these strings of what looked like sort of big maggoty bogeys. And I obviously let out a scream of terror and then realised that this was going on pretty much all over my flat. And so that sort of kicked off this battle. I don't think it's exaggerating to say that against this like kind of unseen foe. I had to go through every single cupboard in our house.

And it wasn't just that I you know I I was a I'm a fashion journalist so I did have some nice some nice clothes but um they went for everything they were in the carpets the sofa the curtains um the tea towel drawer you know if it was there they found it they ate through um like a straw a straw basket that we kept loo roll in. They were everywhere. So I have huge sympathies for this woman, even though she is mega, mega rich. I mean, you've described it really well,

but in your article, you describe Mothsa as the biblical plague of the empowered woman. What do you mean by that? Do you know what? They just, they sent me right back into housewife mode. I was obviously working full time. I'm just so glad this happened before I had children, because it took over my life. I had to empty all of my flat, I basically had to move out for a while, I had to dry clean what I could, which cost the earth.

I bagged up every single piece of fabric in my house and took it to a laundrette on a service wash. And actually, while I was waiting for a taxi to bring me home again, a crack addict offered me 20 quid for all of it. I think that was my lowest ebb during the entire process. I'm going to ask you for your tips, but we've put this out this morning and wonderfully, we've got lots of advice coming in from the listeners. I'm going to read a few of them out,

see how many of these you've tried. So Jodie in Faversham says, I find putting blocks of cedar wood in drawers and wardrobes keep moths from munching my wool clothing. Cedar wood? I have that everywhere, but I wouldn't rely on that alone. Moths. The only way is to put all wool and silk in plastic clothes bags. First time around, put clothes in a bag in the freezer for three days to kill off existing larvae.

Does that work? That definitely works i have a friend who has a drinks fridge upstairs just for cashmere jumpers actually i'm not putting my cashmere jumper in next to my mum's tupperware full of delicious curry that's just not going to work in my house i'm afraid um okay so we'll have to try something else i've been infested for years as um terry in ns embarking all my carpets rugsugs, jumpers, hats, scarves and coats. I have used all known treatments available. None work.

I appear to have also taken them to my flat in Spain now. Oh dear. He says help, help. That is a horror story. I mean, I would say when I had them the second time around, I moved into a house where they were already living in the carpets, which obviously I didn't know at the time. We've taken out all the carpets. I would never, ever have wool carpets in any house ever. You can get really nice

synthetic rugs that look like wool. Don't get the real thing because they will just nibble on it. And I think don't have it wall to wall, get a rug. The other thing that I have found that works, obviously you have to do this fairly religiously, but every six months I take everything out. My husband helps as well because he's seen the damage they do we clean everything we spray we wipe it down we get the sort of repellent stuff but they're these rent-a-kill sheets they're cheap they're like four four or five pounds you get a packet of 20 and you put them in every single cupboard you stick them at the back of your wardrobe between blankets I put them in coat pockets um and you write the

date on when you put them in and you change them every six months you rent a moth sheets what happened to the good old-fashioned moth ball that's a nostalgic smell isn't it apparently apparently they were toxic so the ones you are not powerful enough bring back the toxic i say this is not a natural deterrent situation um Harriet Walker, thank you so much for speaking to us this morning. Keep your solutions coming in. Another message here. I lost my two favourite suits to moths now. Everything wool and silk lives in one wardrobe with cedar balls,

regularly changed with cedar oil and hanging moth killers. I've lost a garment since. Oh, no. And another one here from Anita in Leeds says, we've battled with clothes moths for several years with very little success. Advice to listeners, a bit of lavender wouldn't really help.

Moth repellent sachets are more effective. They don't just eat wool. They've eaten our cotton clothes and sheets. The only way to kill the eggs is steam or freeze. We freeze our clothes and steam clean our carpets. We're not winning though. Oh my goodness. A moth's winning the battle.

Keep your advice coming in. That text number 84844. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story, settle in. Available now. Now though, for the next part of our week-long series forgotten children which looks at the impact on families when one or both parents are sent to prison the government estimates that nearly 200 000 children in england and wales are affected by parental imprisonment reporter joe morris spoke to emily it's not her real name whose husband was sentenced to prison for crimes he committed against her i should warn you that em sentenced to prison for crimes he committed against her. I should warn you that Emily discusses those crimes and some parts of this interview may be upsetting.

After her now ex-husband was arrested, Emily became a single parent to her children and found it difficult to access support. Jo visited Emily at home and noticed something unusual about her house. So you've taken the door off here? Yes that's because it was triggering when the kids like used to bang it. Yeah like slamming doors was really triggering for me so I've removed the door. In the living room? In the living room so we have no door. Is this because of past behaviour? Yeah. From your partner, your ex-partner? Yeah

and I hate it when the kids slam their bedroom doors but I can't remove them. Why is it a trigger? Because that's what he used to do he used to go around the house and just slam all the doors because um he once slammed my arm in a door so do you know what i mean he slammed your arm in a door yeah when i was trying to leave before i can't remember the whole do you know i mean you just get like little bits come through. Because of your PTSD? They say it's like your memory, because you lived in fight or flight, your memory hasn't processed properly. How much do you think the children remember? I think they remember more than what they tell me.

But because I find it hard, I don't talk to them about it. And then because they know it upsets me, they don don't talk to them about it. And then because they know it upsets me, they don't equally talk to me about it. You just don't know, because all of them have been affected very differently, and all of them are very different children. And why did you want to talk to us about the impact of parental imprisonment? Because there's no support.

There is nothing out there for the children, apart from the charity that we managed to find. But there's no support there is nothing out there for the children apart from the charity that we managed to find but there's nothing that it's not something you want to talk about but i think it might help someone so it was your husband who's now your ex-husband yeah who was who was arrested yeah so it's my now my ex-husband what was he sentenced for um sentenced for harassment with intent to cause violence and he was originally charged for harassment with intent to kill and cause violence against yes so it's to cause violence against me how old were you when you met your ex 21 and how would you describe the marriage? Horrendous.

Yeah. Like, this wasn't a continuous pattern. Like, there'd be some relief and there'd be some nice parts and that would kind of suck you back in. And then all of a sudden it would get worse again and there'd be loads of threats. They would come off like three different messages, so I'd get a picture of a sledgehammer in one, I'd get a spade in another,

and he'd message something like, bang, bang, you're gone, and he'd send creepy singing nursery rhymes. If you try and explain it, it just sounds crazy, and it's like, well, that doesn't happen, and it's like, well, it did. And the children witnessed all of this? Yeah, the children witnessed most of this, because they'd be banging on my door they'd hear it i remember one time when he was trying to get into my house he was

like throwing rocks and smashing the door and we went up into the bathroom and the fear in my children's face was just awful like do you know when you can just see that pure terror and i just saw it and they were like what are we going to do and i was like we're waiting for the police to come and they were like well where are they and I was like they're on their way and it's like trying to reassure them but you're not reassured yourself but every time we got a no further action

the next time it would be worse so they've witnessed a lot haven't they the children they've witnessed too much but you can't take that back can you and that was one of the reasons They've witnessed too much, but you can't take that back, can you? And that was one of the reasons I left,

is because I didn't want them thinking that I was okay and that was normal. So I was like the cycle. So my stepdad used to beat up my mum and she used to stay and it was fine. And that's what kind of created those like no boundaries for me because you're not taught it in school you don't know what domestic abuse is I didn't know that wasn't happening in everyone else's house because I didn't speak about it with my friends so I didn't know that that's what they weren't going home to so I didn't want to think I didn't want my children to think that actually is normal and that's okay and you should be allowed to treat be treated like that how did you feel Emily the day your husband your your ex-husband was

was sentenced i felt relief um i feel i think i felt bad as well because i don't know why you still have these kind of trauma bonds but it was relief it was like finally this is over and then as soon as he went to prison children's services kind of said oh they're fine now everyone's like oh he's gone to prison now it's fine they'll be fine is that what it felt like yeah it felt like well the problem's gone so they're going to be okay prior to all of this we had a social worker that they had to see us every 10 days and they just turn up whenever they like because that's how at risk we were and then as soon as he went to prison nothing what what impact did their dad going to prison have on your children i think it had a massive impact like um i i was single at the time and um my youngest kept saying

to me um you need to find me a new dad like i need a dad like oh what about this person and because she just needed like she's all her friends having these family like the weekends were the worst because people would go out and do activities the family and we weren't I think she said to me we're we're just broken aren't we and it was so hard because obviously I felt that that was my fault and for her to say that like they noticed that we were different and we were weren't normal. Like, they'd seen families that had split up before, but they'd still see their dad, whereas they had no contact. So it was almost like he died, but he hadn't.

So they were grieving a loss, but he was still there. So it was a really kind of complex, like, I don't know how you understand that. So I can't imagine how a child would understand that. Equally, he was trying to hurt me, and that was why he was away. I don't know how you understand that so I can't imagine how a child would understand that equally he was he was trying to hurt me and that was why he was away and all of their friends have got these great families that they just wanted to have and also it affects us financially he was he was the main earner we then were I was working part-time and then eventually I couldn't work because I came ill and then we didn't have any money and all of their friends were going and doing stuff and we used to have that life we used to go on holiday we used to

do things and then all of a sudden we couldn't do anything eventually I did manage to get back to work but it was still like we're living on one income like I'd fled so we had nothing so we had no sofa no bed no tea like we had to start again with absolutely nothing like we i don't we live in a quite a privileged area there's not i don't know anyone who's got a parent in prison i don't know i've never known anyone go to prison it is looked down upon like we were looked down upon at school in the playground my youngest one she like she didn't get invited to people's houses and i don't know if that's because of he was in prison but the others did beforehand like I hated doing the school pickup it was like I didn't want anyone to speak to me but then I equally didn't want to

stand on my own because I thought everyone was judging me because they they didn't know why he was in prison and I remember a dad um a few years later and and he said to me oh I thought you went to prison for fraud or burglary and I was like no we were the victims and he was like oh I didn't realise and it's like you don't realise my youngest she did speak about it and I remember once the school phoned me because they have like a sharing assembly and she went into assembly and she said oh my dad's gone to prison like because she I don't know in her little mind that was exciting or something and then um they kind of took her off and they phoned me and said we're not going to let her share an assembly

anymore because we don't want her to worry other children and I thought well that's just I didn't say anything to the school because I didn't feel like I had that power or that voice. But I just felt, well, she loves sharing her stuff in assembly and now she's not going to be able to share anymore because they're worried that what she might say might upset someone because of something that she felt she wanted to share and needed to share. And there wasn't any help and that was it. We were kind of just a bad egg family. Can you understand why the school thought that she shouldn't share it?

Yeah, I can understand because it is, if kids find out this information, it is scary for them, but that's why they need education and learning. She was in a year of reception, like the first year of primary school. This wasn't our crime like why are we being punished and why are we being pushed out of society because of something that happened to us as a mum how worried were you about the impact i'm massively worried like it's domestic abuse is a adverse childhood experience parental imprisonment is an adverse child experiences parents mental health which i have is adverse childhood experience i've already given

them three aces so yeah it does really worry me that they're all going to go off the rails but had there been some sort of professional help they might have been able to guide me the better way forward whereas i'm just doing it off of what I think is best and I'm no expert. So when your children's father went to prison was he allowed contact with the children? So it was no contact direct or indirect but I didn't realise that letters were in direct contact because no one informed me of what that meant so he used to send them letters from prison and I would give them to the children. I then had to read them because they were in direct threats to me

in these letters and they were just creepy and not child-appropriate. He sent a picture of a revenge superhero with a knife and a gun in his hand and then he'd send other ones saying... It was like bits of songs, like saying if you go to the river you're gonna like the song would be like dying or something in it but you have to understand him this is what he was doing prior to going to prison he'd send me a picture on like facebook and send me a text message and then he'd send me a voice note and if you put all three together it was a threat to kill me but individually it's just slightly odd. But obviously, he wasn't supposed to be sending them.

I don't know how the prison didn't pick up on the fact that he was sending them. I don't know how they didn't think to say, do you know, these are indirect contact. But no one... I didn't know. I thought the professionals would know, and because they knew about it, I presumed it was OK. How long was his sentence for?

He got two years and nine months were you were you told when he was released from prison I was told after he was released I I needed time to prepare for myself for my children for that but yeah I got a call saying oh he's been released but he should be checking in in his hostel how did you feel when you had that terrified i just needed someone to come around and say like this is a safety plan this is what we're going to do when he was in prison did he did he still have parental responsibility so he kept his parental responsibility and his parental rights the children in our class as victims in their own rights so even though he though it was a crime against them as well,

he still kept his rights and his responsibilities for those children. You've said that you'd like the law to change around this. What would you like to happen? I'd like their rights to be removed. If a parent is in prison for a case against either, like, violence against women or violence against children, sexual offences, they should have their rights removed. Why should then that woman have to ask him permission to take her children on holiday

or ask him permission to change their schools because, obviously, they want to move area or whatever circumstances they're in on the outside? Why do they need to have to ask someone who's on the inside, who can't do anything who can't do a school run can't do it can't take him to a doctor's appointment like why do they still get those rights why are they not removed and then they can fight to get them back why have we got to fight to keep our children safe what did you what did you need emily what did you and

your children need at that point of sentencing what would have helped you just someone to just kind of explain what everything was like the indirect contact like what would happen when he's released for my children like what is prison like like a little booklet just saying this is where he stands so that they can understand that it's not a horrific horrible thing just to let them know there are other people, they're not the only ones. It's not shameful, it's not embarrassing, it's not a stigma that we don't need to talk about. Just those type of things that should have been done

and just someone that we could go to, just anyone, to just navigate this whole new world that we're in. What's life like for you and your children now? Where are you at? Yeah, we're OK. We're doing for you and your children now where are you at yeah we're okay we're doing all right still don't have doors but we're yeah they're okay they kind of and yeah they're just trying to forget about it as much as they can and they are doing really well and they're kind and that's all you want isn't it they're kind yeah not to each other but to everyone else.

They're doing great. I'm proud of them. They've done really well. But I just don't want them to feel that they're less than a person. That was Emily, not her real name, talking to reporter Jo Morris for our Forgotten Children series about parental imprisonment. And if you've been affected by any of the issues discussed in this interview, you can go to the BBC Actionline website,

where you'll find information on where to access support. And we asked the Department of Education to tell us what their plans are to tackle the issue of parental imprisonment. And the spokesperson said, growing up with a parent in prison can have a devastating impact on a child's life opportunities. We've taken measures to better identify and support these children. We've published the first official statistics of the number of children with a parent in prison to better understand the scale of this challenge.

We're also breaking down barriers to opportunity, taking action to prevent more women and mothers from getting caught up in crime in the first place. And make sure you listen to Woman's Hour tomorrow when I'll speak to Labour MP Jake Richards and Conservative MP Richard Holden about why they've been asking questions in Parliament about the impact of parental imprisonment

and the potential for a new national identification programme for the children of prisoners. The text number 84844. But now, to the London's West End. Excuse me. The musical lovers... I was cheering so loud last night, my throat's a bit hoarse. The musical lovers amongst you will be out of your seats

clapping with glee as a new show has just opened. The Devil Wears Prada. The iconic film starring Meryl Streep, Anne Hathaway and Emily Blunt was released 18 years ago and now a new musical adaptation. Lyrics contributed by the American musician Shaina Taub and music by Elton John is hitting the West End. So, ladies and gentlemen, for one Thursday morning only on Woman's Hour,

please welcome the three leading ladies in the show, Vanessa Williams, Georgie Buckland, and Amy D. Bartolomeo. And welcome to Woman's Hour. Good morning. It's so lovely to have you here. How are your energy levels? You were magnificent on stage.

A lot of energy in that programme. Are you all feeling good? Yeah, we're good. Gorgeous. Georgie, I'm going to come to you first. In case our listeners haven't seen the film, can you tell us briefly what the storyline is? Sure.

So the story follows Andy Sachs, our protagonist, who I'm lucky enough to play in the musical, who gets a job at Runway magazine and meets Emily Blunt's character, Emily, played by Amy, who is the first assistant to Miranda Priestly, played by Vanessa Williams. And Andy kind of works her way up at runway and changes her lifestyle and goes to Paris and lots of things happen. I won't spoil too much, but it's about a girl who loses herself briefly to get ahead career wise and in the end realizes that the only thing she needed to do was stick to her own integrity and what she truly wanted out of life. But she gets some amazing outfit changes.

Oh, yes. Yes, she does. Vanessa, you play Miranda Priestley, the original role played by Meryl Streep, the boss from Hell. Was this a no-brainer when you got the call? I loved the idea to play it. There was another production that had happened.

And so I was... idea to play it. There was another production that had happened. But Jerry Mitchell, who is our director, choreographer, said, listen, I'm coming to you. Don't read any critics' reviews of the last production. I'm taking over. Trust me, I'm going to come back to you with an offer, but you're my first choice. So I knew that Jerry had a huge vision, and I trusted Jerry's vision that he would shepherd the show into what you saw last night. So yeah, honestly, it was a little, some trepidation at first, just because it is theater, and it's all about collaboration and creators and vision and budget and what they have in mind. So but I am so happy where we are. It's a brilliant group of people that have been putting this whole piece together. And I'm in definitely great hands.

Yes. And you are magnificent on the stage. And also when your name was released as the person who will be playing this role, we're all delighted. You know, and what a gift. Is it a gift? You know, I don't want to, can I reveal your age? Sure, I'm 61. 61. You know, and this, you know, starring in the West End. Were you expecting something like this to turn up? Is this, you know, a wonderful thing to have happened right now? Well, I really enjoyed it because I was supposed to make my West End debut in 2020 in City of Angels at the Garrick. So we had already gone through all of our rehearsals. We were in previews and then the whole world shut down. So this was an opportunity to come back and actually make it happen. So I'm

happy to be back in the West End Theatre scene, happy to work with all these brilliant people that surround me every day and do a role that is a lot of fun. And I've been lucky to be able to play some formidable women in the past. Yes, including Wilhelmina Slater in Ugly Betty, similar role in some ways. Yeah, yeah. Well, Wilhelmina never got a chance to be editor-in-chief. That was her for four years. She tried really hard and did anything she could possible to get to that position.

But Miranda, it's her. She's at the helm. Amy, you get to play Emily. She is hilarious. Not always the nicest to Andy. What's it like to play comedy? Is it the first time you're playing comedy? Yeah, I've been desperate to play it.

I just couldn't get seen, like real talk. I really wanted to play or even audition for a comedy role and I just couldn't get in for one. And when I saw this, I was like, let's go. Why do you think that was? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

I think... She's too beautiful to be funny. No, no, no. I think people put you... It's all about breaking out of your boxes isn't it I think I was oh god I'm being really honest I think I was put in a oh she can riff she can you know

oh she dances and I'm like no but I do so much more please let me show you and this was finally I'm so I say it all the time I'm really grateful for this team because they're the people that finally took a chance on me and said no you you she can do it yeah and I yeah I've been having the best time ever since first of all we welcome pure honesty at woman's hour right also you're right it only takes one person to give you that break and you know start you were so funny thank

you talking of the person to give you a break you're very first you've only graduated five minutes ago and now you're starring in a west a huge west end musical yeah it kind of happened overnight for me I I was the last person to be cast very last minute I mean they had to search for months to cast this part and they Jerry was very honest and said he he couldn't find anyone to play her and i came in i was on tour at the time i remember my first audition i dropped my music all over the floor and was swearing and was a mess like an absolute mess and um i had to get back to nottingham that's where i was on tour at the at the time and uh yeah he just saw something in me um he said i i like that girl. I remember that girl. Star quality.

You are brilliant. All three of you. Yeah, three weeks in. I mean, it's wonderful. We need to talk about the fashion because it's exquisite. I'm thinking particularly of the ballroom scene. It's magnified so much in it. Anyone who's into musicals, this is the, you know, it's just a, it's an instant classic.

It is a piece for the eyes. But all I kept thinking about is they have to wear high heels on stage all the time. Is that difficult? Yes. These two I feel are natural. I am not. I had to spend, I spent a lot of time in my room. Not a lot of people know this.

Wearing heels heels walking up and down going I need to look good I need to look good but I can get away with it because she's not supposed to be so natural at it so but the costumes are exquisite what does it feel like putting those on every single night well I was lucky because I got a chance to create a majority of my things I worked with a dear friend of mine who's a designer. The name of her line is Pamela Rowland. So I did a lot of my stuff with Greg Barnes, who's our costume designer.

We came up with fabrics and shapes and did mood boards and all that stuff. So I would say 70% of my things are Pamela. And then I do wear some Tom Ford, some Dior, some prada uh that are store-bought store-bought well it's hardly store but yeah um so it's it's it's wonderful yeah it's that's what people are going to come to see as well yeah i am i got um i was couldn't believe it um an instagram message from greg barnes watched um the workshop we did and

was like i'd like to talk to you as soon as possible and i remember turning it to my boyfriend or it's me like i can't believe this is happening um and so we zoomed straight away and he the first thing greg said to me was i want you to feel amazing what do you want i want you to feel comfortable how do you see her how do you envision her do you mind wearing stilettos and i said greg there's only one choice we have to do stilettos Emily has to be the main thing my thing was she has to be so on trend so so before the trend or straight off the runway she spends all of her money on her fashion um I have to be in stilettos I want to be uncomfortable so I had everything taken in as tight as possible so my posture I just think she would really care about how she looks.

Yeah, you embody it. Yeah. I mean, it's... And it helps so much when it comes to the character because you can feel any kind of way. You put those clothes on, I'm like in Balmain. Yeah. Jean-Paul Gaultier, Prada, Versace.

Like I'm not not wearing designer. Well, yeah. For anybody who's into fashion as well as music, it ticks all the boxes. So whilst I was sitting and watching it, I was enjoying it, but also thinking of lots of things because I knew I was going to be talking to you this morning.

And I thought, this is a production about the highly competitive world of fashion, particularly for young women. And I thought, well, are there parallels between that and the world of acting? You know, but Vanessa, for you particularly,

you know, you've had such an amazing career and so many different fields. You started off as a beauty pageant winner and you've acted and you've sung and you've had albums out. So successful. Could you understand that kind of competitive nature? Well, thematically, they could get away with in 2005 compared to what we're dealing with now in 2024 in terms of workplace ethics and people getting triggered and HR departments, all that stuff.

So it's interesting how the power and the finances kind of informed where we are. And I think that's a nice, you know, I've gone through horrible bosses. I've gone through not being able to say, this sucks, or I feel uncomfortable because I've been in the business for 40 years. You just have to suck it up and move on or tell your agent, but, you know, deal with microaggressions and all that stuff. So we've come a long way and we've got platforms that we can, go ahead. Yeah, no, no, no. It's fascinating. So just on that, because you're right, it's set in 2006.

So I wonder, because we're in such a different world now, how some of the themes in it sit. I'm thinking about the iconic line where you say, you know, I'm on all i is a cube of cheese which is so funny it's so over the top because it's a very camp over the top production but also you know how do we feel about you she's like there's some tragic tragedy in that tragic and that's what i love about what kate the writer has done with emily's story because by the end of this by the end of her journey in the show, she actually comes out of hospital and realises what matters to her. And she's like, I needed to sleep. I'm not hungry anymore. I've met this lovely man who can take me to Paris.

And actually, what was I working so hard for? What actually matters to me and what is important? And it's like, oh, eat well, sleep well, have a nice time with your partner and everything's going to be okay. Go to Paris with a guy, but be able to eat the food, please. Why are you in Paris if you can't eat the croissants? I also was delighted by the diversity in the casting. And I know this is something very important to all of you, particularly you, Vanessa.

Absolutely. I mean, not only is diversity seen and displayed, but I'm lucky enough to be part of Black Theatre United, which is a group that we all, right after the killing of George Floyd, Broadway actors, directors, theatre creators came together and now we've got an advocacy group which has been fantastic so to see the work that has that we fought to put in place and see it be reflected not only in in on the Broadway scene but also across here has been wonderful. I wonder how that feels for you as someone who has been in the industry for 40 years seeing seeing all this change now. It's been fantastic. We started our, I guess, our rehearsal process with a full day of EDI work, talking about things that people might not understand in terms of microaggressions and touching hair and having people that are part of the crew that are mixed. So you know you've got a vocabulary that you can talk about issues

and have some community. So it's really important and so proud. Such a mixed cast, very diverse and a lead who comes from the Lake District. Not even from London. No, not at all. So, you know, breaking boundaries is important to you. God, yeah.

I mean, I think I've said it before whenever anyone asks me about this i've had to work that little bit harder to get to where i am now because i didn't have opportunities where i grew up and i'm sure that a lot of people can relate whether that's your cultural background or you know where you're from or how much money you have it yeah but we're here now so you are here now and they're on at the west end it's end devil wears prada vanessa amy georgie thank you so much for joining me uh that's it for me today join me tomorrow for more weekend for more woman's hour thank you that's all for today's woman's hour join us again next time i wanted to

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