Woman's Hour - Preventing online abuse, Rage rooms, Puberty and sport, Actor Olivia Williams on AI

Episode Date: November 25, 2025

What should tech companies be doing to prevent online abuse of women and girls? Ofcom's Chief Executive, Dame Melanie Dawes, joins Nuala McGovern to discuss their new guidance. It's urging tech firms to go much further to prevent the harm caused by misogynistic pile-ons, online stalking and intimate image abuse. They've also teamed up with Sport England to highlight the toll such abuse is taking on women in sport. Have you heard of rage rooms? Or even visited one? Turns out demand for them is surging, and 90% of the UK customers are women. Believed to have started in Japan in the early 2000s, rage rooms are places where people can smash up items such as electronics, white goods and crockery. Nuala is joined by Jennifer Cox, psychotherapist and author of Women are Angry: Why Your Rage is Hiding and How To Let It Out, and culture journalist Isobel Lewis who has visited a rage retreat.Isabelle Kyson, 17, is a national-level sprint hurdler and passionate advocate for girls in sport. Today, she releases her documentary, Out of the Race, on YouTube which explores why so many girls drop out of sport during puberty. Research shows that more than two-thirds of teenage girls quit sport by the age of 16 or 17—a trend Issey has been campaigning to change for some time, including lobbying government for action. She has also launched a new toolkit for schools, developed in partnership with the Association for Physical Education. Issey joins Nuala along with Kate Thornton-Bousfield, Chief Executive Officer of the Association for Physical Education.We discuss acting and AI as the actor Olivia Williams discusses why she wants actors to have more control over the data that is obtained from scans of their body. Many actors contracts now include a clause granting producers ownership of an actor’s ‘likeness’ across all platforms, forever. This can cover photos, drawings, figurines, and the full body scans captured with advanced technology. In a recent article in The Guardian, Olivia suggested that something similar to a 'nudity clause' should be added to contracts. She joins Nuala along with consultant solicitor, Kelsey Farish, who advises actors and performers on AI clauses. Presented by: Nuala McGovern Produced by: Sarah Jane Griffiths

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See holidays differently when you stream the best of British TV with Britbox. Hello, this is Nula McGovern and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast.

Hello and welcome to the program. Well, today the CEO of Ofcom Dame Melanie Dawes is in studio as you will have just heard in the bulletin. The UK regulator, Ofcom is issuing new guidance, urging technology firms

to address significant and widespread online abuse targeting women. So we'll get into that in just a moment. Also, where did all the girls go? Well, that's what the junior athlete, Issy Kaysen, wanted to know, as they faded away from her sports teams. Issey now wants more awareness about puberty.

She thinks better understanding of the bodily changes that it brings will help girls stay in the game. And have you heard about rage rooms, places you can go and break stuff and let off steam? Well, demand is surging, apparently, according to news reports, this week. And 90% of the customers are women. We're going to talk about why that might be. And I'd also like to know, how do you express your rage if you feel that you can? Well, one of my guests says that women's rage differs from men's because women are conditioned in a patriarchal society not to show it publicly. But do you publicly or indeed privately? Or do you feel

that you can't in either sphere? And what is it that provokes rage? A lot of questions. there. You can text the program. The number is 84844 on social media where at BBC Women's Hour or you can email us through our website for WhatsApp message or voice note. The number is 0-3700-100-400-44. Plus, we also have the actor Olivia Williams. Now, she is calling for more control over how her image and the images of other actors are used in an age of AI. All coming up. But let us turn to Offcom, the UK's internet regulator. That is turning its focus to the safety of women and girls online, warning that urgent action is needed. It has issued new guidance, and this recommends measures such as prompts to rethink harmful posts, timeouts for repeat offenders, restrictions on comments, and also improved tools for blocking and reporting abuse.

Ofcom has also partnered with Sport England to spotlight the impact this abuse is having on women in sport particularly. And leading the effort is Dame Melanie Dawes, Chief Executive of Offcom and joining me in the Women's Hour Studio. Good morning. Good morning. So why did Offcom issue this new guidance now? Well, this is all part of the implementation of the Online Safety Act. We've got some of the strictest rules now in the world on making life safer online for everybody. And this particular piece today is about recognizing that women and girls get a harder time than men and boys online, suffering from things like intimate image abuse and trolling,

pylons and harassment. So we've set out many practical steps. You've named some of them already, Nula. And we think it's absolutely imperative now that the tech companies just act. It's all very practical. It's all common sense. There should be nothing from stopping them from implementing this.

What did survivors tell you? Well, I've spoken to, particularly to women who've suffered from domestic abuse, coercive control. and the great thing is when you sit down with people who've experienced this, they are so clear about what would help. And what they said to us is we want all the privacy settings bundled in one place. So we can be very confident that we're at our most private geolocation is switched off so that the person who's abused them can't find them, can't find their children.

Again, a really practical suggestion, and that's now in our guidance today. And they do sound very practical, but you mentioned the Online Safety Act there for a little background for our listeners. is first made into law in 2023, updated since, and it makes platforms accountable for keeping us safe online. But some might ask, given that there is that recent law, why do we need additional guidance? Well, it's all part of how we're implementing this act.

So you can change the law, but actually what this does is get much more practical and specific about the changes, and that makes it much easier for us to then pin down whether or not the tech companies are doing anything. So what we're going to be doing here is publishing a full report here of which companies are bothering and which ones are not bothering about women's safety online

so that everybody can see and so that women can maybe start voting with their feet with a little bit more confidence that they know what's going on. But with the guidance that you're speaking about, it is not, as I understand it, legally binding. Has no teeth in it for tech companies

to actually take note. Well, some of it is building on the things already in our code. So, for example, it's illegal now to share an intimate image of a woman or a man without their consent. And the data suggests that more than 95% of that intimate image abuse is directed against women.

It's an overwhelmingly gendered problem. So there, the tech companies have got to do something about that. It's illegal and we will take full enforcement action against them if they don't deal with that. There are measures that we've already set out on that. But more broadly, actually, you know, sometimes people think guidance is actually maybe a bit looser, but we've taken it as a license to be more ambitious.

It means that we don't have to reach such a high standard of proof that something's effective. And so we've gone for it a bit. We've talked to everybody. We've set, we think, a really high standard. No other country, by the way, has done this. So there's a lot of other regulators internationally, a lot of other governments who are interested in what offcom's done today. And as I say, we are now going to hold the companies to account. I think that transparency will make them sit up and take notice.

And I think there will be money that would be very happy with some of the guidance that you are introducing. But others might ask, you know, does this mean then that the Online Safety Act isn't fit for purpose? No, I think this is all part of the Act. So the Act sets out the broad rules and then what Offcoms had to do over the first few months is then set out the detail. That's all part of how you implement and regulate.

So we've prioritised this guidance for women and girls so that we're getting it in, you know, very early on in our implementation. It's not the only thing we're doing. We've also got age checks in across porn sites this summer, all of the top 10. have got a proper age check-in now so that under-18s can't stumble across pornography in the way that they're used to. We've got much stronger measures being taken

amongst some small but quite risky services for child sexual abuse images, for example. And we're beginning to see protections coming in to protect kids from grooming by making them more private so they can't be found by people who wish them harm online. So we're driving a lot of change already, but there is masses more to do and we're under no illusions about the scale of the task ahead.

The scale is quite a lot. something, I'll get to some figures, but I do want to turn to the organisations like the not-for-profit group, Internet Matters, the charity refuge. They're pressing the government to make a mandatory code of practice to ensure meaningful protection for women and girls online. Would you call on the government to do this? I think we've, you know, the right thing to do, well, certainly with the law as it is at the moment, we've used the full weight of it here. We're doing, I think, a pretty maximum effort here to protect women and girls. And look, this is now a moment, I think, for the tech companies.

If they don't implement this, if they don't take notice, it may well be that we get stricter rules in relation to women and girls, also potentially in relation to protecting children. So you, if I've understood correctly, are hoping that they will see this guidance and think, oh, it's easier to comply this way instead of having tougher regulations potentially coming in down the line. Yeah, I think that is part of the incentive for them. They are, I think, complying more than people may have expected.

The big companies, you know, want to comply. The question is, are they doing enough? And that's what we're testing on a number of fronts with them at the moment, particularly protecting children. So far, following the introduction of the Online Safety Act, just two fines have been issued, as I understand it, for non-compliance. And the anonymous online message board for Chan has refused to pay. Look, two fines in just eight months since these rules actually became enforceable,

is actually quite a lot? Is it? Yeah, it is. because you've got to build up a case that you can stand up. So, and the other thing that's happened is that quite a lot of companies, we've had more than 80, sorry, more than, just underrated. I think it's 79 that we've opened up investigations against. And several of them have actually changed their practices, which is great.

I don't want to find anyone if they're actually going to do what I want them to do without that. And there are also some companies that have decided they don't want to comply. They're usually very small ones. They don't want to take steps to protect people. There's a particular suicide forum, which is very nasty, pro-suicide content. And they have removed their service from the UK. They have geo-blocked the UK. We are keeping an extremely close eye on them because they've reneged on that once.

So we need to make sure that it's permanent. But fines are just one thing that we're doing. There are many other tools that we're using. And as I say, we're learning as we go as well about what's effective, what achieves the change the quickest, because that's what we're about, quick results as far as we can possibly drive them. You will publicly name firms that don't adhere to the guidelines. I understand that would be published in 2027, which seems an awful long way away.

I know. Look, we've got to give the companies a chance now to implement this. And then we've got to do a proper comprehensive study of what they're doing and the impact that it's having. And I want to engage women and the various organisations that represent them in that. It'll be in time for the women's football World Cup in 2027. and I think that's an important milestone. We saw the abuse that the lionesses had this summer, 30% more likely to be abused women footballers than men. And as I mentioned at the top,

but to reiterate women in sport are a particular focus. Absolutely. I mean, it's also about journalists, politicians. It's about anybody who is a public figure or has to spend their life online in order to do their jobs. And I think that's a really important point because this isn't just about, you know, people's hurt feelings or anything like that.

It's actually about women's freedom to be able to go about their work, to be able to have freedom of speech online. Many, many women pull back because they know that if they do that now, they're just going to get abused, sometimes not just hatefully and hurtfully, but actually in a way that threatens their safety.

Well, let's talk about some of the scale that you mentioned there. There was a survey, perhaps you saw today, of 1,700 people commissioned by the office of the police chief scientific advisor and it found that one in four people think there is nothing wrong or feel neutral about creating and sharing sexual deep fakes

so they are digitally manipulated images or videos using AI to make it appear that someone is engaging in sexual activity without their consent. Often, these are women and I was wondering do you think you can fight that mindset? And if so, how? Well, it's now illegal.

Just to be really clear, the government has put that beyond doubt very recently. It's illegal to share those kinds of images without consent, whether you've created them in real life or whether they're generated by AI. Look, I think one of the things that has happened in recent years with no regulation of social media for so long is that people have got used to behaving with complete impunity online

in a way that, frankly, you know, wouldn't actually be acceptable offline. And, you know, if you put posters up in your front window of women, And I mean, people would find that unbelievably unacceptable, but somehow when it's online. It's something that's become normalized. And that's why this is such a tough job, to be honest, is to turn around some of those norms, not just the culture in the tech industry itself,

but also I do think the way that some of us are now behaving in our lives in ways that ultimately I don't think anybody thinks is right or sustainable. And do you think, and you mentioned the law, is that the only way to try and try and curb it, that mindset, for example? I always think it's disappointing when you have to revert to the law because it suggests you've got to wield a really big stick and it should be something that people, you know, are able to control for themselves.

But given the scale of intimate image abuse online and how it's grown in recent years, particularly with the AI making it so much easier, it's just too big a problem. We've got some very concrete measures on that in our guidance that are actually, you know, require companies to follow them if they've got this problem on their platforms. So we're very clear about that. And one of the guidelines related is to detect and remove those non-consensual intimate images. But once an image is online, it can travel around the internet so quickly. Are you ever able to get rid of the image entirely?

Well, you're right. This is why it's so hard. And there isn't a system in place at the moment. So what we're suggesting, what we're going to require is that companies sign. up to a database so that women can say there's an image of me, they can log it on the database, it then gets a footprint, little technology footprint put on it, and then tech companies will be able to spot it and find it and withdraw it, whoever they are, wherever it's gone on the internet. But it is new. We've been very innovative here. It's a technology that's

been used for images of children in the past. We're trying to apply it now to intimate images of adults, particularly women. And as we have alluded to a couple of times, you've partnered with Sport England and Women's Super League about women playing sport in the public eye. I just want to play a little of one of the most influential voices in English football. This is a former lioness Karen Carney last month. She told us about the impact that online abuse had on her. The last five or six years, my confidence has been really knocked. I was on one of the best shows I dreamed about and my mum said she was so proud of me

when she heard the music because I matched the day and I had a panic attack. as I was doing a click I couldn't breathe and the anxiety and everything that had kind of came on top of me came on top of me in that show and I was so upset because I'd worked so hard to try and get on match the day for the first ever time

and I just felt I wasn't my best version of myself it completely shattered my confidence and you know it was really hard it's hard for me to talk to you about it like I try and move forward and look towards the positive sides of things but it definitely changed who I

was and who I am. What would you say to Karen Carney? Well, look, we're with you. I mean, it's a really good example of just how problematic this is for people and how harmful it can be that they're representing their country, inspiring us, doing what we all want and winning for our country and yet have received so much abuse online. By the way, I think Karen's amazing. I've been watching her on strictly. She is just inspiring. But do you think today's news that you are here to talk about with this new guidance would make a difference to somebody like Karen? Well, what we're trying to do is give people like Karen more control so that they can limit the abuse that they're receiving. But we're also saying to companies, it's on you mainly.

So one of the big underlying principles here is that companies need to do a lot more to test when they put new features out on their service. More and more important with AI creating all these new exciting options, they may be exciting, but they need testing. you know, behind the scenes and not on the general public. So think like a perpetrator, test your products, recognise that they'll be abused and do that thinking beforehand rather than just

leaving women to pick it up later. Think like a perpetrator. Yeah, I know it doesn't sound very nice, but it's what they need to do if they're actually unleashing things on the general public. You are the head of Ofcom. I wanted to get your thoughts on, of course, some news issues this week as well.

Dame Caroline Dynage, you probably saw the head of the Culture Select Committee, has questioned whether the BBC board is in safe hands under the board's chair, Samir Shah. This was yesterday, people might have seen. He was questioned by MPs, among other senior figures as well, about what led to the BBC's recent resignations

of the Director General and the CEO of News. Do you believe that the BBC Board is in safe hands? Look, I'm not going to comment on individuals, but I think the board now has quite a big job to do. They've lost their Director General, and the buck now stops with them to make sure that the BBC is able to continue serving the public, which, by the way, it does day in, day out.

And our latest annual report will be out this Friday. And we'll make that absolutely clear on news and current affairs and across so many other shows as well. But they've got some things they need to fix. They need to be constantly trying to rebuild trust on impartiality. It's a tough job, given how feebral our news environment is these days. But I think the board, you know, the board, I think they are focused on this, but they've got a job of work to do now.

also as Samir Shah said yesterday the search is on for the next director general I was wondering if you have any thoughts he says you don't want to comment on individuals but perhaps on who you would like it to be look I think the BBC needs an outstanding leader in that job they need to be able to run a very large organisation they need to understand the industry above all have that mission and public purpose serving the public is the core duty of the BBC and you know they need to be resilient these big jobs are hard They put a lot of pressure on individuals. And I do think sometimes our media environment, it doesn't really recognise that.

So, you know, we're looking for an amazing person, but it's an amazing organisation. Some are calling for it to be a woman. This is Woman's Error, so I'd like your thoughts on that. Do you agree? Well, it would be great, wouldn't it, to have the first female director general of the BBC. But above all, it just needs to be a really good, strong person who understands how to lead change, how to lead such an important organisation. Thank you for joining us this morning.

Thank you. Melanie does, the chief executive of Ofgum, who have launched, as you have been hearing in the news over the past few hours, new guidelines for tech companies today. Thanks for your messages coming in about rage. Rania says, I'm a mum of a toddler and an outdoors lover,

so my son and myself scream when we step out into the forest or open spaces. I also run with music and I shout when I need to let steam off. Are you, rage is all the rage, so I am hearing off late. And to that end, we're going to talk about it. You might have seen, the headlines were about rage rooms.

So you go into them and you let all your frustration out. Apparently 90% of the customers are women. This is according to a report that was in the Times, picked up in the garage and you might have seen. They think that these rage rooms have started, that they started, it was early 2000s in Japan. so it could be electronics or white goods or crockery or whatever that you could go nuts on. I do remember being doing programming from South Korea and I went to one and I let loose on a printer.

And I did that for all of us because I think we've all been frustrated with a printer at some point during our careers. So I should pop up that video. I've still got it on my phone. So they were ahead of the curve but now it's the thing here. To talk about all this and women's rage and whether we can express it. in the way that we want to. I'm joined by Jennifer Cox. She's a psychotherapist, author of Women Are Angry,

Why Your Rage is Hiding and How to Let It Out. And at one time, self-help book of the year when it came out in July 2024, so congrats on that. Jennifer also co-hosts the Women Are Mad podcast. Good morning. Good morning, Lula. We're also joined by culture journalist

Isabel Lewis, who visited a rage retreat. I mean, those two words, I don't think, really go together for me. But we'll also hear from you, Isabel, in just a moment. Jennifer, this headline about the rage rooms and most of them being women probably wasn't a surprise to you. It wasn't a surprise to me at all. It's only a surprise that it's hitting now, frankly. I mean, I guess my book did seem to set something off a bit, but I think that that nerve was already raw.

It was ready to be jangled. And, yeah, I mean, I guess it is just surprising to me how it feels as if this is news. And what is rage? Is it anger? Is it something different? Well, essentially, it's our nervous system responding with fight or flight. And this is adrenaline, this is cortisol, and it can go any number of ways. And for women, it typically goes into the kind of more fearful, more flight-based end of the spectrum. because we're not conditioned, well, rather we are conditioned to feel those feelings. And we're really pushed away and distance from anything that is more frustrated, angry, aggressive, rageful.

And so we're just, we don't have a vocabulary for it. We've never been, you know, raised to talk about these things in those terms. So it stays in our bodies and we repress it. Which I would imagine is not a good thing. You're shaking your head, not a good thing. It's not a good thing, Nula. What do you think ignites that rage? And obviously there's a myriad of reason,

but you are a therapist, so I imagine women have spoken to you about this. Yeah. So I think what I hear on the daily is more around the kind of systemic family stuff that is so kind of written into ourselves. As soon as we're born, we're expected to fulfill very particular roles, you know, caretaking roles.

We're the nice girl, the good girl, the polite girl. We're not the cross girl or the one who's taking up space and standing up for herself. And I guess, you know, when you see this across a lifetime and you see where we end up as women in these very sandwiched places often between, you know, our jobs, our parents, our young children, you can see just how furious that might make us. And do you recommend that people let it out and if so, how? Oh, I do. I really do. I mean, I think, well, talking is the obvious one. So this is where the podcast Women Are Mad has really kind of taken off because I think it's the first time we've had this sort of formal conversation around rage

and all these high-profile women come and they want to let off steam with us. And so conversation is the easy one. But I think we need to get it out of our bodies. It's an energy and we need to discharge it. So this is why all the techniques that they're talking about, you know, in these articles at the moment. I remember I threw crockery. I wasn't particularly angry when I went into the room, but I still thoroughly enjoyed it. You know, the printer definitely got the rough end of the deal.

What did you do, smash it up? I had a baseball bat. I also had for health and safety. Like you get a helmet and like a little visor and all that business. So you can go nuts and you're not going to hurt anyone or yourself. Dreamy. I mean, I really think this is what we dream of as women, just being able to absolutely let rip.

Yeah, no one's going to get hurt, but it's out. If people don't put it out, maybe I haven't even got you, giving you a chance there to answer your question on how you ask people to let it out. Well, I mean, I quite encourage, like, mini-rade rooms in the home. So piling up cushions, pillows, really going for it. Yeah, you don't, there aren't many rage rooms. That's the thing as yet.

Maybe that's going to change. Maybe that is going to change. And if people don't. let it out, what do you see with the people you meet? Not good. I mean, this is where, because we repress it, it comes out in our bodies in all sorts of different ways. So anxiety, depression, OCD, I mean, migraine, stomach problems, you name it. It's because we don't have a language for it and we have never been allowed to sit

at that end of our feelings, we've sort of been coerced into calling it lots of different things that I think are far more convenient for society. let's bring in Isabel The Rage Retreat What was it? How was it? It was a pretty wild experience It was just something I'd seen A Fly for

On a notice board somewhere And I was like, oh, that sounds really interesting It is something that I would never normally do It sounded pretty, I think hippie is a word That I would use And I am pretty cynical of a lot of that stuff But I just come back from travelling And I was like, oh, I kind of wanted to do a lot

stuff that tapped into those kind of emotions and anger is not something I really as Jennifer was saying I do not experience anger ever really you mean you don't allow yourself to experience it or you just never have feelings of anger? Probably a bit of both like I think you're not aware of them yeah yeah honestly it's just not it's not where things go as you say I'm definitely the flight side it's not really the fight

and I think I was like oh I didn't really go into it thinking I have something that I want to be angry about. I just kind of want to see what it's like to play with that emotion. And it was definitely a very, lots of stuff that was kind of out of my comfort zone, but very kind of more on like the spiritual side. But I found it was amazing. Like I think realizing that I couldn't be cynical of it, I had to go and like really get the most out of it.

And there was lots of stuff that came up for me personally about not so much about stuff that I'd gone in thinking I felt angry about. but about hearing the other women and it was a really broad and varied group hearing the stuff that they were talking about they were angry with and a lot of that did feel quite like societal and the stuff that women go through and I was like absolutely furious

by the end of it about what they had gone through and I quite like upset like there were points when they kind of encouraged us to like scream and things like that and they were very like if that doesn't come naturally we say just basically make a noise and in a kind of fake it till you make it way and at some point it might change

and it was yeah it was all very dramatic but at some point we were doing that and I was like oh I'm actually screaming for real and I don't really know when it shifted but I was like I'm absolutely furious that they have gone through all this and in some ways I think like

feeling it as like a kind of cheesy but like sisterhood thing and made it feel easier almost but I think it's a really interesting point to bring up Isabel because we can feel rage on behalf of other people, most definitely. Jennifer? Yeah, I mean, I see that a lot, actually. When I've done events like that in the past, sort of getting women to scream,

often I say, if you can't do it for yourself, do it for a woman who has no voice. You know, because we're really good at that, aren't we? We're very empathic, we're very compassionate. We can put ourselves in other shoes. We just can't give ourselves the experience. And I think that's what we all need to get much better at. You reminded me, I went to a well. like gig and she had a thing in the middle of it where everybody screams everybody at the concert screams like obviously everybody is in a good mood and it's not a rage thing but actually when you get into it it is definitely a cathartic thing it's energy it's just it's coming out and it's stuck in for too long what about the lions roar jennifer what is that so that's one of my personal

faves so if you're somewhere where it's just not appropriate to make a big noise you can just tuck yourself away in a little corner. I mean, you know, obviously we do that a lot, don't we as women? Minimize, make ourselves small, but we can release the energy in a big way doing that. So it's a sort of silent scream, basically, where your

body and your voice are given the experience of, yes. So I'm trying to do it here. This is radio, I know. So you open your mouth and you go for it, but just not making the sound. So let the body go into fists, let your body tense up or shake.

it out with the mouth wide open. Does it give you the same release? Yeah, it's good enough. It's good enough. We talk about that in therapy a lot, something being good enough. I think it gets us where we need to be, roughly speaking.

It's on the right track. Some messages coming in. I always show rage in public when necessary. I hate how women are conditioned to stay quiet, which makes me even more motivated to share it. It's really shown how people don't even want to help or look at the angry women. Not even other women like to see angry women,

which is why I absolutely love listening to certain feminist punk bands to healthily channel that emotion. I love meeting other angry women. But what about that? Why are we? Isabel, I'd be curious for your thoughts on this. Why, particularly from the retreat, why do you think we are so uncomfortable being around intense anger,

which can be rage? I think there's a lot about in women that often I think a lot of these emotions just kind of get flattened down to emotional. Like, there's not really much dissecting into what it is. It's just like, oh, you're too emotional. Like, I think, if I think about myself as like a teenager, I was such like, you know, I couldn't really,

I wanted to argue. I'd so much to be ag, or that I felt I was angry about, but I couldn't really argue it without, like, crying. Yes. And then I think I kind of took that forward being like, you know, you have these ideas of you don't want to get emotional in the workplace because people will respect you less. if you can't argue your point without it.

So I think I just personally, I think I ended up really like flattening it down and being like, well, it's easier just to leave it. Because a fear of tears, Jennifer, can be a real thing. I mean, we saw it with Rachel Reeves, for example, a few weeks ago, how much the Chancellor, there was so much discussion about it afterwards with a woman crying in public

and it sparked all sorts of conversations. We have no idea why Rachel Reeves was crying at that particular time. But for some women, as Isabel describes there, when they have a feeling of rage, it transforms into tears, which then are, I'm putting this in inverted commas, inappropriate to express. Apparently, yeah. I mean, I think I rail against this as well. What's wrong with emotion? Why in society have we become so phobic of it? And why are, you know, as we know, a lot of men are allowed to kind of express their feelings in very different.

way. Not all men and there's a lot of feelings that they are not allowed expressed. Perhaps women are allowed express. I mean, this is an interesting one, isn't it? Because there's a real kind of polarity between where we're allowed to go and where they're allowed to go. And they're as stymied by this system as we are. But what I would say is, like, can't we just have different conversations around emotion in general? Yes, that is definitely one. And I'm also thinking about when it comes to rage, and I think Isabel touched on this, like whether the rage is justified or not. Oh, I mean, yes, it is.

But in the sense that whether other people you feel you're being too emotional or whether that's the correct response to have in that particular situation, because obviously, from what we're hearing, from our listeners, it can make people very uncomfortable. It does make people uncomfortable, doesn't it? I mean, there is, we have to be real about this. It does have an impact on others. I mean, my preference is if you have a sort of surfeit of emotion and it just feels way too much, take it out the room. Let's experiment with taking it out of the room, getting, like discharging most of the sort of raw energy of it and grounding yourself, centering yourself and coming back in and using that

emotion as a fuel to what you really want to say. Once your brain is back online, what do you want to say? To take a moment. Okay, some messages. I really see. suppressed emotions, anger, resentment, frustration, uncensored, unfiltered and in-private, either through handwriting or recording it into an app. When finished, either I shred the pages or never listen to the recording again. This has revealed how present-day triggers

are often echoes of unheeled past experiences and allowed them up and out. I think everybody should do it from children, teens, people who prison, MPs, everyone. Here's another. I buried my anger and frustration for many years. It gradually turned into secret alcoholism. Fortunately, I recognise what had happened and found help with AA.

There's one more. My mother had the best way to deal with my brother's frustration, joy at the end of a school day, and allowing him time and space in the cellar to scream and shout. He emerged with a smile saying, oh, I feel better now. That was in the 1950s. Nothing is new, except for it was the brother sent down. The brother. Yeah, not the sister.

Let's get the sisters in. And maybe to let some of that emotion out. So, I guess, go to get the pillows in the room. do the silent scream, take a moment out, get your brain in focus and come back and use that rage as fuel. I think this is our toolkit this morning, Isabel. Would you agree? Oh, definitely. We did a lot of pillow bashing at the retreat and it really did feel really good. Well, thank you both for coming in, culture journalist Isabel Lewis, who visited a rage retreat and Jennifer Cox, psychotherapist and author of Women Are Angry, Why a Rage is Hiding, and of course the Women are Mad Podcast as well.

8444 if you would like to get in touch. My next guest, Issy Kyson, is 17. She's a national level sprint hurdler, as well as a passionate advocate for girls participating in sport. Today, she's releasing her documentary, out of the race on YouTube, exploring why so many girls drop out a sport during puberty. Now, studies have shown that more than two-thirds of teenage girls

quit sport by the age of 16 or 17, and that's a trend that Issy has been campaigning to change. That includes what she's done, lobbying the government for action. As she's launched a new, we're talking about toolkits, another toolkit for schools developed in partnership with the Association for Physical Education. Is he's with me in studio. Good morning. Good to have you with us. We also have Kate Thornton-Busfield, the chief executive officer of the Association for Physical Education. Good morning, Kate. Good morning, Loula. Good morning, Izzy. Morning, Kate. So I watched your film last night. So lovely and so thought-provoking,

really when it came to girls of a certain age. Why did you want to make the film? Well, I think it was a collaboration of two things. One, when I was younger, I noticed that there were so many girls in the younger age groups. So I was about probably 11, 12 years old. And I was, oh, there's so many of us girls. And I looked up to the older age group, so probably what I am now, like 17 years old, and was like, oh, there's no girls there.

Like, what's happened? They fall in off. So that was one observation I made. And then it wasn't until Anna Kessel came to my first. school and did a little talk where she actually told us that this was a big issue that teenage girls were dropping out sports, showed us some stats, and that made me realize that, oh no, this is actually an issue. And then that paired with my own experiences of teenage girl made me realize, ah, the reason why teenage girls are dropping out of sports

is because of the effects of puberty. That's why the things I'm experiencing, the other teenage girls, they're all experiencing the same things, and they all just collaborate together and contribute to this drop out. Anna Kessel, the journalist for, she's a sports writer and writes for many of the big newspapers as well. So that's so interesting. She kind of piqued your interest. But I suppose I hadn't thought about it that much. But how did puberty affect you? So it affected me in a number of ways. Again, I can only talk for my own personal experiences. Every teenage girl is going to be different. But the main things I experienced were things such as a plateau in performance. That was mainly related to weight gain and body

shape changing and everything and also the menstrual cycle. So I had a bit of a weight gain about six kilograms in the space of six weeks and that meant that my athletic performance as a competitive athlete meant that my athletic performance decreased and that can be really demoralising especially if your whole life revolves around a sport you're training five times a week

two gym sessions a week everything you're putting in is just going to the sport and it's just getting worse and worse and that can be really demoralising and so what did you think is it at that time so obviously six kilograms you're growing, growing into a woman

obviously weight is going to change but it is a very short transition period of six weeks for that and the plateau that came immediately afterwards what went through your mind? Well, if I'm being honest at a moment when it happened I was just like damn

I've just gone slow and fat but obviously that wasn't the case and that was just my body transitioning from a child's body to a woman's body but what I didn't realise at the time was that that was going to happen to every teenage girl obviously probably not but the extent that mine did

but the body type it will be changed changing and your distribution of mass will be changing as well. And did you have any idea before it happened that this might happen? Nope. None. I mean, we got taught in biology saying that, oh, you know, you'll get your menstrual cycle and stuff. I'm like, okay, cool. You get taught in wellbeing. Oh, you might get some cramps and stuff and get some body hair, get boobs and a bum and stuff. We never really got told how it's actually going to affect us practically. We didn't get told how it's going to affect us in sports and how to actually deal with these issues. It's so interesting. Because I don't think I had

really thought about it until you described it in your documentary as well. Kate, I mean, why is that information lacking? Great question. I think it's a bit of a taboo subject and I think we need to normalise it. I think sometimes some of our teachers are really uncomfortable in talking about it and actually our girls need us more than they've ever needed us. I think it's something that probably stays within the home when actually we need to normalise it. It needs to become part of normal conversation in school so we can meet girls where they're at and understand the challenges facing them, a bit like we've probably done at the opposite end of the scale in my age around the menopause. We're normalising that now. We absolutely

need to normalise talking about puberty to make sure our girls are heard and feel comfortable in the environments they're in. And with the six kilograms in six weeks, I can totally identify with that as well at the other end of the spectrum. But, you know, when it comes to it and there are obviously psychological changes taking place as well because we've all these hormones. And what made you stay the course, Izzy? Why did you not fall away like others did? I think I was just really fortunate enough to have a really good support network. I mean, it can be really hard if you don't have a support network to just, it'd be very easy to drop out. But luckily had my dad there. To be honest, he was kind of learning at the same

rate as me. My mum wasn't too knowledgeable about these subjects. But luckily, I I grew up in a very open family. So we kind of all learned together. Conversation was just very open. But I can understand that that's not the case for a lot of families where this is considered a taboo subject. What could teachers, schools, Kate, be doing

to kind of teach a bit more because menstruation, we haven't spoken about period so much yet, is about the effect that they can have and we will. But puberty, as part of their training, do they have that? Absolutely. I mean, it's something we do need to address

in terms of making sure our teachers are equipped to be able to be confident and comfortable in talking about these issues because they happen to all of us. Also, making sure that our male counterparts, because, you know, P.E. isn't just taught by females. In some schools, we have mixed P.E., that may be taught by a male as well, making sure they're comfortable in talking about these things. So, yeah, we've got to address initial teacher training in the training that provided, but also ongoing professional development for teachers whilst they're in a school and trying to understand the needs of those learners.

And I'm so proud of Izzy in what she's done in raising awareness. I mean, we are only here to support her. This is very much her journey and her work. And what Izzy's been able to do is really unlock, unlock those conversations and make them normal practice, but using her voice, reaching out to who she's reached to, talking to her peers. Us as teachers then need to understand and listen to our young people to then make sure the activities that we're teaching are right,

make sure that learning environment is right, make sure those changing rooms are comfortable, make sure their products available to them. And more importantly, as well as Izzy's done so well, it's make sure they're comfortable in their kit that they're wearing so that if they're going through some of these challenges, they're in a great place and they can still participate with not worrying about, you know, what may be going on in a certain piece of kit. Yeah, so this is particularly with periods, right? You might bleed through, for example. You might feel comfortable in a pair of short shorts. Yeah. And I thought it was really lovely. You were sitting in, I think it's a gym at one point in your documentary

with some of your pals that are at the same age. And they talk just so frankly about what they're going through and where they feel comfortable and where they don't and some of the changes that were unexpected. Was it difficult to get people to speak on camera? This is the thing. I don't think it was. They were really, really open about talking about these issues.

And I think us as women are very, we like to share a lot about our lives. And I think that when you have a friendship with another woman, like it's a very open friendship. And I think the only barrier is is then trying to speak about that publicly where there will be other voices listening. So I think on a one-on-one conversation with women, I think we're pretty comfortable to talk about anything,

if I'm being honest. But I think it's then that fear of them being judged when it's the large masses, I think, that possibly... Yes, that they might get some negative feedback, which some of your friends talked about as well or getting... Comments, unwanted comments, from perhaps boys that are their age, for example. Yeah, probably more boys, yeah.

Yeah. Tell me about the toolkit. Yeah, so the toolkit I made in a collaboration with the association for PE. So it includes some rough guidance for PE teachers to help navigate this kind of tricky area. It's got some anecdotes from my stories. So one of them is talking about me when I was having redact cramps before a race and I wasn't too sure how to deal with it. So it gives real life examples of what I've experienced so they can see how that could affect a girl in real time as well as some pointers.

So I think one of the sections about the menstrual cycle is making sure that the girls are aware of different types of sanitary products. So like not just pads, but tampons, period underwear, period swimming costume, just making sure that they're aware of these options so they can feel more comfortable doing sports. I wasn't aware of period swimwear. Yeah, it's pretty cool. I haven't tried out yet, but I've heard of it.

And I think, again, just making sure that you are aware of these options can definitely help. Now, you've also written to education secretaries, Gillian Keegan, Bridget Philipson to get changes made to the school curriculum. Has that been successful? Well, they're in the progress of doing the national curriculum review now. So they've done the big overall guidance saying, I'm not too sure what they've said. They've probably said stuff like, oh, make sure the peak curriculum is more inclusive. And then now they're going to go on to figure out how they're going to do. that so that's where they are at the moment and that's kind of up to them so um but but i wonder and i'll

go back to kate on this um will puberty come up i think it has to it's something that will be talked about across across the whole curriculum not necessarily pigeonholding to one subject and i think it's really important that it is talked about more and certainly in terms of the physical education curriculum which you know will be completely rewritten as well this is an opportunity we talk about the holistic development of a young person, not just the sports element and the physical element. And it's really important that as a teacher, you understand the emotions connected to a young person, making sure that experience is a positive one. And as, you know, we support the writing of that new curriculum, these issues that the Izzy's raising will absolutely

be challenged, but where we can look and connect it with other subjects, so it's talked about in personal social health education, as well as in biology and science, as well as in physical education so that that child feels listened to, that young woman, is empowered to still participate in physical activity, knowing they're in a safe environment and can have these open and honest conversations. How's the PE kit? Sorry? How's the PE kit at the moment? Well, it depends. I mean, I'm in a school where we're quite flexible on that, which is quite good for our school, but I know a lot of schools have still had that very rigid kit where it's just wear your scorts with a t-shirt. And the problem with the scorts is that it's a very traditional form of uniform that was mainly there for sexualisation rather than practicality.

Tess Howard speaks a lot about this. But she basically says that it was there to prove that women can still be feminine whilst doing sports. So that's a weird historical tie to the scourts. And I understand the uncomfortableness that a girl can feel when wearing a sport because why are you wearing a small skirt that feels like you're flashing people accidentally. every time you go and bend over and do a bit of activity. So it's just making sure that you have that availability in different kits. So joggers or like track suit or shorts like football shorts or anything else, long-sleeved tops as well.

And I think that physical activity can really like impact to teenage girls' experience with sports and their lifelong love of sports and everything as well. There was a little part in the documentary of you as a little kid. What were you five or six running around? And your big role model, even at that point, was Jess Ennis Hill, who you met. What was that like?

That was actually, that was insane. Because I've seen her on TV and everything. I'm like, oh my God, she's like a star of my childhood. And then when I saw her walking down the corridor, I was like, oh, my God, she's here in the flesh. I was like, oh, my God, she's actually here. And it was absolutely amazing. She still had that star quality to her. Because sometimes you'll see people on TV and you'll, I don't know, maybe meet them in person.

You're like, oh, well, not as nice as I thought it would be. But she was, she exceeding my expectations like a hundredfold. And of course she's on board, as are lots of the people that are in the documentary on trying to make what you want to happen happen. What advice would you give to a teenage girl who's thinking of dropping out or perhaps her parent or carer are listening this morning? I'd say for the teenage girl who's thinking of dropping out sports, don't do it. Don't do it.

If it's because of like reasons where the sports feeling too competitive or your performances, is plateauing and you're feeling like it's not worth it. Just remember the physical benefits. One, I mean, there's a lot of physical benefits doing sports. There's also a lot of mental health benefits as well. But also, just do it for yourself. You know it's going to do you so much good. And also remember that we're all on our own biological timeline.

So what's happening now isn't necessarily going to be where you are in the next few years. It's a pretty good advice. I want to thank you, Yisi, for coming in and also, Kate, for joining me this morning. You can watch the documentary out of the race. It's on YouTube. And also some news that you might have heard this morning that the Lioness's goalkeeper, Hannah Hampton, has today been voted the BBC Women's Footballer of the Year.

She joined me shortly, you might remember, after the iconic Euro's win in the summer and spoke about the obstacles she overcame to make it to the top. You might like to listen to that interview. It's on BBC Sounds. The episode is from the 11th of August. Thanks for all your messages that are coming in. Lana says,

When my husband was in the final stages of dementia, I would take myself into the greenhouse with a camping chair, radio and a large glass of wine and have a good cry and scream. I felt much better after, and I got all my anger and rage out of the situation we were in. It helped so then I wouldn't get frustrated with him. Indeed.

Here's another. I tell my boys that just because I show emotion by raging loudly, doesn't mean it's any worse or less valid than their father who goes quiet and moody and monosyllabic. Both can be equal. hurtful, but the bad press is always towards the noisy party 844, quite a few comments

coming in on that. I want to turn to the subject of artificial intelligence, AI and acting. My next guest, the actor Olivia Williams, wants actors to have more control over the data that has obtained from scans of their body. Many actors' contracts

now include a clause, and this grants producers' ownership of an actor's likeness. We'll talk about that word, likeness. all platforms forever. And the likeness can cover photos, drawings, figurines, and the full body scans are captured with advanced technology. So in a recent article in The Gorgeon,

Olivia suggested that something similar to the nudity clause that some have should be added to contracts because performers have very few rights over how body scan data is used. Olivia's with me to talk about this. We're also joined by the consultant solicitor, Kelsey Farish, who advises actors and performers on AI clauses. Olivia, great to have you with us. I know people will know you from the Sixth Sense,

from the father, from name Camilla Parker Bowles in the recent series of The Crown. Great to have you with us. But we're on to talk about your contracts, really. Tell me when did you first become aware of an AI clause in your contract? What was the impetus behind, I suppose, wanting to write an article. That's not really the way around it works, actually.

I became aware of this extraordinary clause which you have referred to, which says the producer owns your likeness as determined by the producer on all platforms now existing or yet to be devised throughout the universe in perpetuity. And most people laugh when they hear that and don't believe that it can be part of a legal document that I've signed, but it is. And the thing that's difficult is not the word likeness. It's that it's followed by the phrase as determined by the producer. So as my career progressed, I think the first movie I did a body scan on was called The Seventh Son.

And I was asked on set one day when I'm in costume and therefore I don't have my phone or access to a lawyer to go into another studio and be photographed by over 360 cameras. set in a circle to catch in my body and all my biometric data from every angle. And because there was this clause in my contract that belonged to the studio to do with as they please. When you went for that body scan, the first time it happened, did you have any idea of where those images, that data might end up? No, and like every ambitious, slightly younger actor than I am now and more innocent, I was excited that I was one of the actors that got to be scanned

because it meant that my character might fly or have an alien growing out of its head or my body might disintegrate into a thousand pieces and it would be a really cool scene and might get me more work. What's difficult is that I'm seen as some sort of Luddite that doesn't want special effects to be in movies. Of course I do. And more to the point, I want AI to be used to help cure the cancer from which I suffer.

And anybody who is going to use my body scans to cure my cancer is welcome to use them and gets my consent. What I don't consent to is what's happened to some actors very recently is to find my image that's owned by the producer in a commercial promoting a right-wing political party in the United States of America and the owner of that image, not mine, but another actor,

not the image, the use of that image, not being contested by the owner who is a major Hollywood producer. So the producer, I understand it, the producer has the image, can use it in whatever way they want after you have done that body scan, so to speak, a special effects team that comes in and basically gets all the data. But you did try to get the clause removed, I understand.

Yes, I have to. I asked my attorney when I was, most actors don't read their contracts. I am odd because I do read my contracts. And so I went to my attorney and said, I don't like the look of this clause, can you tell them that I won't sign the contract unless they take that clause out? And they said, if you don't sign it, we will find another actor who will. And you can always find another actor who will, because actors generally need to work. And it's one of the most competitive, of course, feels that we know of. Kelsey, let me bring you in here. Is this AI clause like Olivia has very widespread? It's not actually an AI clause. It's not actually an AI clause. It's a clause that's been around for decades. And one of the reasons why it says that the

likeness can be used in any part of the universe is because the clause needs to cover things like satellite broadcasts. So it's absolutely standard, but Olivia is absolutely correct in that it is very flexible and what we need now are clauses that are fit for today's environment. Because when those clauses first came in, that was before AI. It was the world of CGI. What I know Olivia has suggested having a clause, like a nudity writer, for example, instead of AI. And we're kind of familiar with those that people will or will not allow nude scenes, for example, or using their body in that way. That's right.

And the issue here that, again, Olivia pointed out so well is that it's often only the actors who are, you know, A-list celebs, who can afford fancy lawyers. They're the ones that can really negotiate their clauses. What I would love to see is a standard clause that says, hey, yes, if you want to use some post-production AI to do a tweak or do some ADR, which is automated dialogue replacement, that's cool. But what I don't want is for you to manipulate my image in a way that damages my reputation or to use my likeness or my voice in a sequel without paying me. That's the problem that we have is that those actors, those incredible, talented individuals who are out there, they're not getting the support that they need, not just from lawyers,

but also from the production companies who do draft these contracts and they need to be better. We did get a statement from Equity, the main actors union. They say AI is currently a key focus of their work, that they want safeguards and how performers are captured on set

with digital scanning technology, digital scans not to be used for generative AI training unless explicit and informed consent is being obtained, transparency around how personal data is stored. How are the notes, negotiations taking or developing. Sure, go ahead. Please do, Olivia.

Say something here, which is really important. My concept of the digital replica rider should not be part of the contract because when you are at the contract stage as an actor, you have no leverage. And these people that Kelsey very politely refers to as the studios or the producers, the enemy here is business affairs. And a studio that's big enough to have a department called business affairs are the people who are literally trying to get a deal

that is a deception. And the only time, they buried these clauses deep within the contract. And the only power time, an actor has power, is when you are already on camera and you have already shot the scene and then they take you over to have your body scan done.

This is something. something that you only know about if you are on set. And that is when you need a rider, which is a separate agreement. It is not part of the contract. Let me hop in there, Olivia, because I do not want you to get cut off. We are coming to the end of the programme. But Olivia Williams and Kelsey Farage, thank you both so much for joining us on Women's Hour. Thank you.

That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. After Anthony Easton's father passes away, he goes through his dad's old suitcase. It's filled with cryptic clues. neatly stacked German money, a family tree he doesn't recognise, and also finds his father's birth certificate, but bearing a different name. From BBC Radio 4 on the History podcast, I'm Charlie Northcott, and I've been working with Anthony Easton to understand his family's dark history and how they lost a fortune worth billions

today. What happened to his family, their business empire, and all the money? Listen to the House at number 48 on BBC Sounds.