Woman's Hour - Princess Diana. High Court challenge over late Down's syndrome terminations. Religion and climate change activism

Episode Date: November 11, 2020

Twenty five years ago Martin Bashir's Panorama interview with Diana Princess of Wales made headlines around the world with quotes like “ there were were three of us in this marriage so it was a bit crowded” Now questions are being asked about how the interview with her was secured , which the BBC are investigating. We hear from Rosa Monckton one of Diana’s best friends Under the current Abortion laws it is legal to terminate a pregnancy up to birth if Down's syndrome is detected. This doesn’t happen very often but Heidi Crowter, a 25-year-old woman from Coventry who has Down’s syndrome, and Máire Lea-Wilson from London, whose 18-month-old son Aidan has Down’s syndrome, are going to the High Court to try to change it. They want the limit reduced for all non-fatal disabilities including Down’s Syndrome , cleft palate and club foot in line with the normal 24-week limit. Anita Rani talks to them and to Clare Murphy from the British Pregnancy Advisory Service.Woman's Hour Power List 2020 Our Planet; What are the major world religions doing to combat the climate crisis? What impact can personal faith have on inspiring climate change activism? We discuss with Maria Zafar, Campaigns Coordinator at Islamic Relief UK; and Ruth Valerio, a theologian, environmentalist and Global Advocacy Director at Christian charity Tearfund Plus the author Kate Mascarenhas on her passion for dolls the theme for her new novel The Thief on The Winged Horse which is set in a doll workshop where generations of the Kendricks family have made dolls with magic powers.Presenter Anita Rani Producer Beverley Purcell

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. This is Anita Rani with the Woman's Hour podcast on Wednesday 11th November 2020. Good morning and welcome to Woman's Hour, a fantastic programme lined up for you with some really interesting women to get us thinking this Wednesday morning. Now 25 years after that Panorama interview, we are once again talking about Diana. I'll be joined by one of her closest friends, Rosa Monckton. If Down syndrome is detected in a foetus, you can currently choose to terminate the pregnancy up to birth. Two women are going to the High Court to try and change that. I'll be hearing from them both. Now, as we prepare to unveil this year's power list all about our planet,

we'll be discussing whether you can be religious and an eco-warrior. And dolls, did you ever play with them? I'm catching up with Kate Mascarenas, who has a thing about dolls and has written a beautiful new book with them as the central theme. Now, you might have watched the ITV documentary last night, the Diana interview, Revenge of a Princess. It's about the 1995 Princess Diana interview with the BBC journalist, now BBC religious affairs editor, Martin Bashir. It caused a real stir 25 years ago with sentences like, there were three of us in this marriage, so it was a bit crowded.

And I'd like to be queen in people's hearts, but I don't see myself being queen of this country. But now there are questions about how Martin Bashir got that Panorama interview with a graphic designer saying he was asked to make false bank statements as a way of persuading Princess Diana through her brother to do it. The new BBC director general, Tim Davey, has promised to get to the truth behind it. Rosa Monckton was one of Princess Diana's best friends. I spoke to her this morning and started off by asking her what she thought about last night's documentary. It made me very sad and it also brought me back to the night I watched the original Panorama interview 25 years ago.

And what did you think about it the first time you saw it? The first time I saw it, I thought, what a terrible mistake my friend had made. And I was really quite horrified and also astounded that I didn't know anything about it because I had seen her a lot that month and she told me nothing and then she rang me the next day and said I'm really sorry Rosa I didn't tell you that I'd done this because I knew you wouldn't have approved and she was absolutely right and I told her why I didn't approve one of the things being that it was not fair on her sons, which she agreed with immediately and regretted immediately. And I said it just was not a very edifying thing to have done, to have exposed herself in that way. But she was absolutely determined that for her, that it was

the right thing to do. And, you know, like so many of us, she was much better at giving advice than taking it. Did she tell you why she decided to do it? Because she felt trapped, because she felt nobody understood. And I think, as many people who saw the documentary last night think it was also a cry for help. You know, it was a sort of get me out of here, which I mean, it certainly succeeded in doing that. There were lots of opinions about her made at the time and even in the documentary last night.

One of them that she was a manipulative woman who used the media for her own gain. One, exactly what you just said, it was an obvious, very obvious cry for help. And maybe this is an opinion that we have now, 25 years later, that actually this was a woman taking charge of her life and her power. What do you think? I think that she, one of the things that I think she found very difficult was that nobody saw the distinction that she very clearly understood between her private life and her life as a member of the royal family. And that conflict was something that really irked her. And I think that the accusations of manipulating the press, I mean, yes, she did do that, but mostly she did it to promote the causes that she cared about. And I think what did come out again when I saw the clips of the Panorama interview last night was her extraordinary compassion. And she had the courage to care.

And I think that's a very, very brave thing. And that that came across. And I was very proud of her last night. It's a brave thing and it's a very powerful legacy that she's left as well. Just how close were you, Rosa? We were very, very close friends. Particularly in those, I mean, I only met her, I only knew her really for the last five years of her life. But 94, 95 had been difficult years

for me personally. I mean, I'd lost a baby very late on in pregnancy and she was absolutely extraordinary at that time. And the way she behaved then, you know, she told me that I misnamed my daughter, that, you know, and we buried her in the garden in Kensington Palace. And I will never, ever, ever forget her face that day and the day we buried Natalia. You know, she was everything, you know, you read negative things about her, but she was the most extraordinary friend and she gave with her heart 100%. And then I became pregnant again in 95. I broke my leg. Because I was pregnant, I couldn't have it operated on.

And that was a very, very difficult year. I still had my leg in plaster when my daughter was born, and Domenica, and she was diagnosed as having Down syndrome. And Diana was run to the hospital in an instant, you know, gave Domenica her first bath, saying, we will do this together. I'll be her godmother. You know, so it was a very, it was a very big year in our friendship friendship and a lot of people said to me oh you were always giving to her absolutely not you know she she met you beyond halfway she was I was very privileged to count her as a friend so how do you feel now that she's back in the press and that the you know we're again talking about this documentary 25 years later and people are still picking over it. How do you feel about that now? I think that

people are picking over it because of the new information that's come to light and I think the most interesting thing for me was seeing Charles Spencer's contemporaneous notes of the meeting he had with Mr. Bashir and then with his sister as well. I mean, what you have to remember is that, you know, these were meticulous notes, you know, his background, he was a journalist and he's an historian. And, you know, thank God for that, because it does put that whole programme into a context which makes it much easier to understand why she did it. So in a way I felt in one way huge anger and upset but actually relief because it explained to me for the very first time why she did it. Why do you think she did it? Because she'd been almost coerced into it by all these things that Mr. Bashir was insinuating.

I mean, he's currently recovering from a quadruple heart bypass and significant complications, having contracted COVID-19. And he hasn't given a statement. So we really don't know what he has to say in relation to all of this. But what is the impact on you? As I said, it brought a whole lot of things back. It made me ferret through my old diaries and letters from her to try and get it back into some sort of perspective. And it made me very sad. It made me sad for her sons. But as I said before, it makes me relieved to understand now properly the context in which she agreed to do it. And what was her state of mind around the time? She didn't tell you that she'd done

the interview, but you knew her very well. Yeah, she didn't tell me. And I, you know, looking through my letters and diaries, you know, we had lunch three or four times in November when all of this was going on. And she didn't let anything on. But she was concerned. She was concerned that people were following her. She was concerned her telephone was being bugged, that there was something in her car, you know, that her bodyguard was plotting. You know, there was all sorts of things going on at that time and did you believe her i i didn't disbelieve her but i just thought she was exaggerating and i i just didn't understand where any of this was coming from but because she was the most photographed woman in the world because because everybody wanted a bit of her, because she had become a commodity.

You know, there were always people. I mean, I just remember her coming. I was running Tiffany at the time and she came in to do a bit of shopping. And by the time she left, Bond Street was packed because somebody had seen her going in there. Imagine living your life like that from 19. I mean, I remember going on holiday with her to Bali and with her protection squad. And one morning saying to this particular detective, look, you know, she's fine. I'm with her.

We're just going to walk down the beach. And we walked a lot. We walked for miles up and down this beach. And she said, this is the first time I haven't had somebody glued to me since I was 19 and it is a difficult way to live and I think she she handled it remarkably well but she did have a very keen sense I think of her own misery which was perhaps due to her you know her broken family all sorts of things led up to her being the person she became but where she was so strong is that she married she managed to transfer that into acute understanding of the unhappiness of others

so she turned a negative into a positive and that is why she has such a remarkable legacy. What would you like to happen now? I would like Mr. Boucher to be well enough to make a statement and to find apologies to be dealt out. I think the BBC needs to be held to account. There was a lot of subterfuge, a lot of covering up. I feel particularly sorry for the graphic designer who was treated so shabbily. I think there needs to be lots of apologies and there needs to be a proper independent inquiry.

And then we all need to move on. We have a statement from the BBC and it says that Martin Bashir is signed off work by his doctors. He's currently recovering from quadruple heart bypass surgery and has significant complications from having contracted Covid-19 earlier in the year. And Director General Tim Davies says the BBC is taking this very seriously and we want to get the truth. We're in the process of commissioning a robust and independent investigation. And the former Director General Tony Hall said the focus of the original investigations was whether Princess Diana had been misled.

He said this and any new issues raised will no doubt be looked at by the BBC's new inquiry. And those are the statements from the BBC. Rosa, whilst I have you on Woman's Hour, a little bit later, I'm going to be talking to two women, one of whom has Down syndrome and the other a mother of a child with Down syndrome. Both of them are going to the high court to try and change the UK abortion laws, which currently allow terminations up to the point of birth if Down syndrome is detected in a fetus. As somebody who I know advocates for people with disability, I'd really like to know your thoughts on this. First, I would like to wish Heidi and Moira every success in this. Second, I think it's absolutely terrible that they should have to go to the High Court for this.

If this was a, brackets, normal child, this would be infanticide. And are we saying that people with Down syndrome are less than human? And I think today of all days, it's Remembrance Day today. And I remember being in church with Domenica on the 11th of November, and she was very unruly and out of control. And I apologized to the veterans who were next to me. And the one nearest to me turned to me and said, we fought the Second World War for people like your daughter.

We fought against the Nazi eugenics program. And what have we become as a society that it seems to be right not to let people like my daughter live? And unfortunately, there's a lot of pressure put on parents by the medical profession. But who are we to judge the value of a human life? And Dementica is living proof to me that happiness is not just an illusion. It's a tangible, tangible thing. And there's a perceived suffering, and I see this with the charity I started at Team Domenica, but it's nothing to do with a learning disability, but it's to do more with isolation and loneliness.

And we need to value the heart, I think, in a world that's overrun with targets and bureaucracy. And people like Domenica, she's taught me acceptance. She's taught me to be myself. You know, nothing I've ever learned, nothing I've ever achieved, nothing, nothing, nothing would impress her. You're forced to take off mask after mask after mask until you become who you're really meant to be. And how is Domenica doing? She's doing absolutely brilliantly. I've started a charity in Brighton called Team Domenica, which is for all young adults with learning disabilities. And our aim is to get them into

paid employment. And it's doing really well. We've got a 75% employment rate against a national average of 5.6 for people with learning disabilities. Rosa Monckton talking to me this morning, and I will be talking to Heidi and Moira shortly. Now, this year's Woman's Hour Power List is all about our planet. So today we want to take a look at whether personal faith can inspire climate change activism and what the major world religions are doing to combat the climate crisis. With me are Maria Zaffer, Campaigns Coordinator at the Islamic Relief UK, and Ruth Valerio, a theologian, environmentalist and global advocacy director at Christian charity

Tearfund. Good morning and welcome to you both. Now Ruth, as a Christian, how does your faith inform your climate change activism? Good morning. It's really lovely to be with you, Anita. My faith is absolutely fundamental to everything I am and to everything that I do. So my faith is founded on God, who is creator, sustainer and saviour. And for me, responding to the climate crisis is a fundamental part of my faith in that God who created and loves this world and all that share in it and who calls us to take care of people living in poverty. For me also, my faith is really important because it's what helps to sustain me. So my

personal experience is that we're in this for the long haul when it comes to the climate crisis. I've been taking action on it now for decades. And my faith, my rhythm of prayer and activism, holding those things together is what sustains me. And what about the Church of England? General, what is it doing to combat the climate crisis? The Church of England and in fact, many churches around the UK is very actively engaged around issues of the environment. So they recently committed to working towards becoming net zero by 2030. And at the start of this year, they launched an energy footprint tool, which helps the church look at what their carbon footprint is and then see how to reduce it. There's a really fabulous scheme called EcoChurch that is available for all churches and

all denominations and networks that is a tool to help churches engage with environmental care. And to date, around 3,000 churches in the UK are now involved with that and taking action. So it's really encouraging. It's got a good snappy title eco church and what what do what does eco church do then how does it work in those 3 000 churches it's an award scheme so a church can work towards being bronze silver or gold and it looks at where issues of environmental care feature in a church's teaching program and prayer life, how a church is looking after its buildings and its land if it has either of those things, how it's engaging with global issues. And my work with Tear Funds, we know that climate change is impacting the poorest people the most. So that's

so important. And then also looking at the personal lifestyle of their members so one example of a church is in Tring High Street Baptist Church and they've divested from fossil fuels they've installed solar panels and they work with their local Tring in transition group and they hold open meetings in their church. And they do a number of things to help not only their church members, but also their communities take steps to move towards a more responsible and sustainable world. I'm going to bring in Maria now. Maria, good morning.

How is Respect for the Earth, how is it embedded in the Quran? So essentially, if you read the Quran, I think one of the many teachings about climate change is quite fundamental and bold there. And the first thing that you learn is that as Muslims, you're custodians of the earth. What that really means is that you have an obligation to the earth. You know, you have responsibility to the earth. And it's almost a form of sort of worship to be mindful of the earth and taking an interest and doing all you can to combat climate change we also see sort of the reoccurring theme of balance and how you can restore balance on the earth through your actions through how for

example planting trees how you can sort of restore the sort of natural gift of the world that was given to you i think there's one a certain teaching which is that even if it's the day of natural gift of the world that was given to you. I think there's one certain teaching, which is that even if it's the day of resurrection or it's a judgment day, still plant a seed. And to me personally, that clearly shows that, you know, we're living in a climate crisis and we should look at it with a similar sort of importance and the need to take action. And one of the other teachings that you learn about

is to walk gently on the earth and to me what that means personally is to be really mindful of your actions and you know both through your behavior and your consumer habits but also beyond that by you know the sort of the political decisions that you make or who you work for or you know the things that you advocate for so essentially it is a very very important component of islam and you see it again and again in various verses and surahs so yeah and and how are islamic leaders uh leading action on climate change you've been working on something called eco ramadan yeah so essentially we've been involved in lots of stuff so a couple of years back the islamic declaration on climate change

was launched, which involved academics, environmental organisations, different organisations, which essentially propel the argument that, you know, Islam is fundamentally a religion that fights against climate change and really encourages other mosques and organisations to do that. Next year, we'll be launching Eco Ramadan, as part of Islamic Relief's work on climate change, which is all about identifying, you know, how can we make the sort of Ramadan period more environmentally friendly? How can we reduce plastic waste? How can we ensure that, you know, we're not wasting, which is another, you know, sort of a belief in Islam not to waste and not to be excessive.

So the whole concept of Eco Ramadan is all about sort of not only advocating for climate action within sort of khutbahs, which are sermons, but also things that people can take and take away and implement in their own homes. And also, again, make the whole Ramadan period, which is often when you see the most, for example, people going in and out of the mosque more sustainable and more environmentally friendly. I'm glad you brought that up. Ruth, isn't that exactly what should be happening? We should really drill down to people's habits and making them understand on a personal level, their own impacts on the environment. I mean, religions can really mobilize on climate action, can't they? Apart from just putting the fear of God into people to do it.

Yeah, absolutely. Faith leaders are uniquely placed to be able to support and motivate communities, not only in the UK, but all around the world to take action, both individually. And then, as Maria was saying, also holding governments to account. The vast majority of people around the world are people of faith. We know that a third of the population adheres to the Christian faith. And those faith beliefs are held dearly and deeply. And I believe that it will be impossible for the world to tackle the climate crisis if

faith groups aren't engaged and working positively on it. And just for both of you how does being a woman of faith impact your work do you think it allows you to reach different parts of the community and get the message through some to women essentially who are the ones running the home? Maria? And it's interesting that you just mentioned how religion plays a part in that also, because there is this fundamental thing about hope and belief and the thing that carries things forward. I work for Islamic Relief and we work with people across different diasporas, including people in Pakistan and Bangladesh. Time and time after, again, you see the women taking the lead

on climate activism and really sort of taking that stance on educating the youth and, you know, leaders within their sort of community. So they are really the champions of climate change. You see it time and time after again, and it's something that you should celebrate and take forward. And it is the women who do the brunt of the sort of, when a climate crisis hits, it unfortunately is the, not only the poorest, but unfortunately,

it is the women that get affected the most, especially when it comes to, for example, sort of when it comes to household responsibilities and educating the children and keeping the house running, essentially, it's unfortunate, but it's something that you see, which should be celebrated, I think, and it isn't looked at as as the the lead that women are taking within the climate activism and propelling that well maria and ruth thank you both very much and i just want to reiterate ramadan is coming up and also as is diwali please can we get rid of the disposable plastic cutlery in place uh that

south asians you know what i'm talking about uh so thanks both to jane um thank you both and join jane on monday for the big reveal of the woman's hour power list uh 2020 now don't forget if you miss the live program you can catch up by downloading the bbc sounds app search for woman's hour and you'll find all our episodes click on an episode to listen right away or download for later you can also subscribe to the Woman's Hour podcast so you never miss a programme. You can contact us on Twitter and on Instagram on at BBC Woman's Hour. Now, on Monday's programme,

we talked about how the language used by health professionals could influence a woman's decision to have a termination if she found out she's expecting a child with Down syndrome. And we touched on the court case coming to the High Court. That case is being brought by Heidi Crowter, a 25-year-old woman from Coventry who has Down syndrome, and Moya Leah Wilson from London, whose 18-month-old son Aidan has Down syndrome. Now, under the current abortion laws, it's legal to terminate a pregnancy up to birth if Downs is detected. Heidi and Moya want to change this and they join me along with Claire Murphy

from the British Pregnancy Advisory Service. Good morning to you both. Heidi, I'd like to come to you first. Why are you bringing this case? What are you fighting for and what are you hoping to achieve? So the reason I'm taking this case is because some people don't really know what the case is and when we tell them they are very surprised and also I'm someone who has dancing going and I find the law very offensive and I know what it's like to have a dancing game because I live a very fulfilled life. I recently got married in July.

You got married in July? Yes. Congratulations, Heidi. Thank you. How do you think people see people with Down syndrome? I would say that some people think of us as a burden and a petty society. But let me tell you something. When uncle phil was alive he absolutely loved me and my grandma was alive he loved me as well and um my husband

james bring carter is not a burden to me he is amazing he is my everything And how do you think society views you and your husband, Heidi? Oh, I think society thinks that me and my husband shouldn't be here. But I think people just need to meet me in games because games is amazing and when James was born he had a torn adresia but I won't let anyone define my husband as that. Yeah, I think you're both amazing Heidi. I mean, Moya, isn't that what we need to work on?

We need to change on society's attitudes. Yes, I mean, it's 25 years on since the Disability Discrimination Act. And we proclaim that we live in a society where everyone deserves to be given a fair and equal chance at life. And this law really doesn't currently reflect that narrative. And I think we can do a lot better than this. So tell me about how you find out about that your son had Down syndrome, that Aidan had Down syndrome. So I had a very sort of standard straightforward pregnancy up to 34 weeks when I was then sent for a growth scan for an unrelated reason where it was discovered there were several markers for Down syndrome. At that stage, we decided to have non-invasive prenatal

testing, which told us that, you know, it was a 99% chance that Aidan would have Down syndrome. You know, I was 35 weeks pregnant at the time and it was a very shocking bit of news for us to receive. But he was born then, you know, 36 weeks plus three days, you know, and he's very healthy. He's very happy. He's just a wonderful little boy. And what do you say to those who say that you're trying to take choice away from women by challenging this law? The case really isn't about women's choice or the rights or wrongs of abortion as far, you know, it's really about this specific instance of inequality in the law whereby for um you know a child who is typically developing the cutoff for abortion is 24 weeks

but if that child has a disability such as down syndrome that's up to birth and you know really I think this is discrimination Claire sorry sorry it's. I was just going to say, you know, I have two sons that I love and value equally. And I just I just find it extraordinary that the law doesn't give them sort of equal value. Claire, let me bring you in on this. You don't want the law to change. Why not? I don't want the law to change. And I think it's really important that we recognise that this legal challenge isn't about protecting or refusing abortion just on the basis of Down syndrome. It basically looks to eliminate women's access to termination for any so-called non-fatal fetal anomalies, which sounds very neat and fits into a neat box. But unfortunately,

medical diagnoses can be incredibly complex. And what we see with abortions after 24 weeks, of which there are actually very few, we're looking at fewer than 300 abortions over 24 weeks on the basis of ground D, of which where down syndrome is is mentioned we're only looking at the last year's statistics for around 12 abortions so dancing doesn't actually feature very very prominently in these in these small number of abortions what this case looks to do is to eliminate women's access where the condition is deemed non-fatal and that's incredibly difficult to do because what generally happens is conditions often coalesce with each other. So a woman might find herself with multiple conditions and having to make a decision in conjunction with the medical

professionals treating her. These are incredibly difficult decisions and they are decisions which absolutely need to be left to a woman in partnership with her family and the doctors and nurses who are caring for her. When is Down's usually picked up Claire? Well with the advent of NIPT which is this non-invasive prenatal test which Moira alluded to I mean she had it later in pregnancy, but this is now being offered to women much, much earlier in pregnancy. So it is being detected much, much earlier in pregnancy. And it's really important.

And I think we had this discussion on the programme a bit earlier this week. You know, it's really important that women understand what that test is testing for. And given the time and space to understand the nature of the condition if they receive a diagnosis, and to make the decision that is right for them, whether that's to continue the pregnancy or to end the pregnancy. And I think it's really important that we have that discussion and that no woman feels pressured in either way.

But this is a different conversation. This is about removing women's right and access to choice. And I think that's where the distinction really lies. Moya, what do you think? I mean, I think it's interesting that Claire alluded to sort of the small number of terminations. I mean, fundamentally, if you have discrimination, sort of whether it impacts 0.1% of the population, 10% of the population, 20% of the population, fundamentally, it is still discrimination. Claire? part of this of this case as you know as moira says is that what this what this law case effectively seeks to do is to establish a position in law that you can discriminate against a fetus by an

action by an abortion and i think that has really wide ranging consequences for the establishment of fetal personhood and i think it actually really lays open you know really paves the way for all sorts of of really problematic consequences in terms of how women may be held accountable for things they did or didn't do in pregnancy alcohol consumption smoking you know potentially even you know being being overweight and having a higher risk of stillbirth, it's really important that, you know, we see that women have autonomy over their bodies and that they are able to make these decisions. These are incredibly difficult decisions that women have to make. And I really think it's important that we have empathy for the kind of circumstances that women and their

families find themselves in when, you know, facing and confronting diagnoses of very, very much wanted pregnancies. And what could the implications be, Claire, if Heidi and Moira get what they want and the law is changed? So I think paradoxically, this will have actually the kind of outcomes that I really don't think Heidi and Moira want to see, because actually what will happen is at the moment, a number of diagnoses, not so much of Down's, but of other conditions are actually not picked up until the anomaly scan, the 20 week anomaly scan. what may well happen is that is that women feel very forced into making a decision about whether to continue or end that pregnancy rather than being given the time and space to actually monitor that pregnancy to work out the severity of the condition and and and to and to make a decision within the you know the context and circumstances of their own life and as I say I don't think any woman should feel compelled to end a pregnancy

when she doesn't think it's right to do so. And it's really important that women have the time and space to make those decisions when faced with these very serious and complex sometimes set of problems that can be found with a pregnancy. So, Moya, what do you think about that? That actually it might end up that you are making women make a choice about whether they want to terminate their pregnancy or not sooner. I mean, look, the thing is, is that this case really isn't about the rights or wrongs of abortion. You know, as far as we see it, this is about discrimination.

And I think it's incredibly important that we remember that there are actual people living with this condition who feel stigmatised by this law. They feel singled out. And that is not fair. I don't know how I'm going to explain it to my son when he's older. But isn't it about changing attitudes of society, Moya? Yeah, I mean, I think we do need to change, you know, attitudes of society. You know, it's 25 years since the Disability Discrimination Act. We are saying that everyone should deserve a fair and equal chance, but the law really doesn't reflect that narrative. And I think, you know, we need to be really conscious about, you know, are we saying that certain lives are not worth living? I don't think we want to be going down that road.

Claire, is it likely to change in your opinion? I really hope that this law doesn't change I think it's a really important law and you know and and I should also say that I do not think there is any contradiction between having a society that supports and facilitates the life of people living with sometimes profound disabilities and one that also respects a woman's right to make her own decision when faced with the very challenging circumstances of finding out that something is seriously wrong with her pregnancy. Okay Heidi, Moya and Claire thank you very much and you'll find links on the Woman's Hour website for advice and support. Now the author Kate Mascarenas has a thing about

dolls. Her new novel The Thief on the Winged Horse, is set in a doll workshop where generations of the same family have fashioned dolls with magic powers. Now in her book and in her life, dolls and dollhouses are central to the relationships between father and daughter and Kate joins me now to tell me more. Good morning Kate, welcome to Woman's Hour. Hello. Now I got sent this book book I thought I'll pick it up have a look through I'm not sure I've got time to read it but I couldn't put it down and finish the whole thing congratulations it's just what I needed. Thank you. Tell us a bit about it I just

disappeared into it and tell us about the dolls and the factory and the doll the dolls are very special aren't they? Yes they are so. So yes, it's a magical story. It's set in modern Oxford and it's about a family business of doll makers and they lay enchantments on the dolls so that anyone who touches a given doll will feel a specific and really intense emotion and that might be bliss or fury or fear

or whatever the doll maker chooses. The situation within this family is that only certain family members are allowed to learn the enchantments and over the past few generations men have really monopolized the use of that magic so at the start of the story um the the heroine of the book is really frustrated with this situation and that conflict between her and and the male members of her family um is is the spine of the book really it's an incredibly empowering book for women it's about a woman trying to find

her own way isn't it and finding her own voice if you like yeah yeah i'd agree with that um and she's very frustrated with you know that most of the dolls that they make tend to be representations of women and she has this sort of suspicion that they kind of see the dolls and the women in their family as sort of interchangeable really they project all sorts of stuff onto them and expect them to sort of do all sorts of emotional care taking but the women don't really have any say in in terms of how these dolls are made or or what sort of emotions they evoke and And she really wants in on that, sort of just having a say in how they're represented. And in the book, there's a very complex relationship with the main protagonist, Persephone, and her alcoholic father.

And it's a very complex relationship, as you did in your real life. Yeah, yeah. So one of the reasons why I'm drawn to dolls in stories is that the whole purpose of dolls is that you bring them to life just through sheer imaginative power. And in a literary way, that makes them a really useful literary symbol where they can represent the owner's psychological interior. They can mirror something the the owner's psychological interior they can mirror something about um about

the owner so I've always been really sort of drawn to sort of stories of bringing dolls to life and when I was small um I I very much enjoyed the children's books by uh Rumor Garden which were about dolls coming to life and about uh that you would have families of dolls in dolls houses where they'd be owned by these very normative families where nothing seemed to be wrong but there'd be all these anxieties within the doll's house that suggested that there was something troubling going on i said to my father when i was about nine that i i wanted him to build me a doll's house he was a builder a builder, he was a competent carpenter, and he agreed to do it.

And I had quite a difficult relationship with him. He was an alcoholic, he was sometimes violent, but he did make me this very beautiful house. And that was something that we shared, but it's also something that I have a lot of ambivalence around. The fact that there were aspects of how we related to each other that were really hard. But he made, very lovingly made, this beautiful thing for me. Describe that doll's house. Describe your first doll's house to me.

So it's actually, my dad was Irish. I grew up in Birmingham in sort of typical Edwardian terrace. And I don't, for some reason, it never occurred to either of us to make a doll's house that was like the house that I lived in. And what we actually did was we went over to Ireland. You know, it was the only place we ever went on holidays, holidays actually when I was a kid because he wanted to see his relatives and um we uh you know we we sort of went on the lookout for houses that he could replicate and we stayed at an Irish uh cottage uh a sort of very large sort of white typical Irish cottage and I said I want my house to look like this so we took photographs and when we got home

I remember watching him sort of do the plans for it and sort of drawing everything on paper and then this sort of slow process of him putting it together and yeah why do you think some people think dolls are creepy um I think it's because I actually think it comes back to that idea of they're meant that you're meant to bring them to life I think it's very easy for it to slip from it being this sort of imaginative, playful thing into their liveliness being something uncanny and scary. So, you know, in horror fiction, you know, you have the idea of them being possessed

or being malevolently animated. I think it just edges over into something that's slightly unnerving. Although I had a look at your Twitter account and I love what you do with your own dolls. It's very interesting. If anyone wants to go and have a look at Kate, what I'm talking about, just check it out. And very quickly, before we have to say move on, how is your health? Because I know you've got COVID at the beginning of the year, March. Yeah, yeah, I have. So I'm still having problems.

But my GP is very supportive and is sorting out various medications for symptom management. So I'm feeling quite optimistic. And are you working on any doll's houses at the moment? No, I'm not actually at the moment. It's very busy with the book coming out, as I'm sure you can imagine. But I am really hopeful that as soon as things quieten down I'll be able to get back into it. And that was Kate Mascarenas I was speaking to her about her new book The Thief on the Winged Horse. Thanks to all of you for getting in touch via tweet, text and emails about all the items you heard on the programme today. At the beginning of the show we were talking to Rosa Monckton and Richard has been in touch to say it was a desperate shame

that Diana had a lot of bad luck. It will go as a reminder to us all that playing your cards right at any level of life can be tricky and you can still be struck by enormous setbacks. Maria says, please forward my support and admiration for Rosa's expressions against the eugenics we allow in our society. It's shameful that we have to fight against the intolerance our society has towards difference. Difference provides us with the opportunity to learn a deeper appreciation for what life and love really mean. And then on the Down syndrome court case, Jackie says, I knew from 13 weeks I was likely to have a baby with Down syndrome and was under heavy pressure to abort my child. The medical profession really make you feel that you have a risk of having a baby with severe conditions. Vicky says, for fetal abnormality, I'm horrified that women like me could have their choice taken away by this potential change in the law. I love my son wholeheartedly and our role as parents was to

save him from suffering. AK says, let women choose. End of story. And Ashley says, I've been the main support worker for a man with Down syndrome for two and a half years. It's been the most rewarding, life-changing experience of my life. I didn't even know that this law exists. I'm horrified. It's eugenics. If a child is not wanted, then find a family that will want them. Love, desire and hold that child. There are plenty out there. And Anne says, society needs to change so we can welcome and support difference and disability without discrimination. A very convincing argument for changing the law was presented. Wishing you every success. And then on religion and the environment, Reverend Richard Stainer says,

A year ago, my wife Christine and I were privileged to visit Ethiopia with Christian Aid. There, the impact of climate change is very evident and is having dramatic effects on people's lives. What was notable was that it was the women who were organising and spearheading the response to the climate crisis. We met groups of women who were setting up businesses, producing fuel-efficient stoves and selling them to their neighbours. These women had gained new status and respect within their communities. On tomorrow's programme, Anne-Marie has been nominated for no less than nine Brit Awards, including four in 2019 alone. Her debut album, Speak Your Mind, was the biggest selling debut album of 2018.

She's got a new documentary out on YouTube, How to Be Anne-Marie. The former karate champion from Essex joins Jane to discuss her music, life lessons and life in lockdown. Nigella Lawson's new book, Cook, Eat, Repeat, focuses on the pleasure of cooking, feeding and eating. Nigella joins Jane to discuss the structure and meaning that cooking brings her and explains how to cook the perfect fish finger butter. And writer and commentator Atega Uwaga discusses her new essay, Whites, on race and other falsehoods. She asks how black people navigate the gap

between what they know to be true and the version of events that white society can bring itself to tolerate and discusses the colossal burden of coexisting with white people between what they know to be true and the version of events that white society can bring itself to tolerate, and discusses the colossal burden of coexisting with white people when you are not white. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.