Woman's Hour - Priti Patel on Afghan crisis, Aisha Jawando as Tina Turner

Episode Date: August 18, 2021

The UK government has announced plans to resettle 20,000 Afghan refugees over the coming years, with 5,000 coming to the UK in the first year. This will be in addition to those such as interpreters and teachers who helped UK forces on the ground, and are already being offered homes here. Emma speaks to the Home Secretary, Priti Patel, on how the announcement will aim to prioritise vulnerable women and children. “I am more than evidence, more than a witness, more than a product of rape. I am not your shame.” That was what our next guest said in her court victim statement, after a man was convicted of raping her mother, when she was then 13, and had gone to his house to babysit. Our guest was conceived from that rape. The man is called Carvel Bennett and he was found guilty of rape, and a fortnight ago he was sentenced to 11 years in prison. Now in her 40s, it's taken years for our guest to secure his conviction. We're not giving her name for legal reasons.A musical on the life of the singer and songwriter Tina Turner has just reopened in London’s West End. Aisha Jawando previously played the part of Tina’s sister, Alline Bullock. Now, she has stepped into the lead role telling the story of a woman who dared to defy the bounds of racism, sexism and ageism to become the global Queen of Rock n’ Roll. Aisha joins Emma and sings live in the Woman’s Hour studio.Presented by Emma Barnett Produced by Frankie Tobi

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome to today's programme. Yesterday I asked you what this country and the world should do to help Afghans as they return to life under Taliban rule. Today our government has responded. 20,000 Afghan refugees will be offered asylum in the UK over the coming years. Within the first year, 5,000 refugees will be eligible,

with women and girls having priority. Shortly, you'll hear about that specific point from the Home Secretary, Priti Patel. But this focus on women comes amid reports that women and girls have disappeared off the streets in Afghanistan, haven't returned to work, are fearful that girls will be denied an education as they were under previous Taliban rule, and that prominent female politicians and public figures' homes are being targeted. And yet a spokesman for the Taliban gave a press conference yesterday in which he had this to say about women. There will be nothing against women in our ruling. Our people accept. Our women are Muslims. They accept Islamic rules. If they continue to live according to Sharia, we will be happy. They will be happy. That was Zabihullah Mujahid speaking

at a press conference with the BBC's Zarghuna Kargah translating. He was saying Afghan women will have rights within Islamic law, but he wouldn't give more detail when asked about dress codes and what roles women would be able to have within the country's workforce. The desperation and fear of the situation in Afghanistan is palpable, not least in the voice of Leiluma Sadeed, an Afghan journalist with the Brussels Morning newspaper, when she was asking a question to the Secretary General of NATO yesterday. And I would like to ask as a woman, please,

don't recognise the Emirate Islamic Taliban without any condition, like the agreement which is signed between Taliban and the government of Trump. And then all NATO is following that. Please don't recognise the Taliban and don't put us in the same situation. Thank you very much. Don't recognise the Taliban. Is the UK's response the right one? What do you make of what has been announced to remind you 20,000 refugees over the coming years with 5,000 coming to the UK in the first year is what is on the table and this is in addition to those such as interpreters and teachers being offered a home who help UK forces on the ground. Parliament has been recalled and right now the

Prime Minister alongside the Home Secretary is talking in the House of Commons about the plan and MPs will be able to put on the record what they make, not just about the plan, what they make of that, but also what has happened in the last few days with reaction to the Taliban taking Afghanistan. I spoke to the Home Secretary, Priti Patel, just before coming on air, ahead of her going into the chamber

for this statement about the refugees. And I asked her if she believed what we had all heard from the Taliban yesterday with regards to the rights of women across Afghanistan. Well, I think, first of all, we have to reflect upon what we've seen associated with the Taliban over the years, basically, and how they have oppressed women, persecuted women. And I genuinely do not think that we should be at all believe in, you know, the spokespeople or the PR operation that we're currently seeing on that front. I myself, some time ago, went to Afghanistan, I have seen

firsthand, at firsthand, the intolerable conditions, the oppression, the persecution of women, that's not going to change overnight, really, quite frankly. Well, no, it could get worse after 20 years of women having positions like yourself, being around the top table. Well, I think importantly as well right now, we have to reflect on a number of things. First of all, there's been so much work that has taken place over recent years when it comes to liberties, women's freedoms, education, giving women opportunity in Afghanistan. But I think we have to reflect right now when we look

at what is going on on the ground. Hence the reason as well why we are very clear in our commitment to resettling people from Afghanistan, women, girls, vulnerable people, persecuted minorities. Which I really want to come to and the detail of. But the reason I ask you whether you believe the spokesperson yesterday, and it sounds like you don't and you have a lot of scepticism, like a lot of the Afghan people that we've been speaking to as the BBC, is do you think you can do business with these men? Would they even do business with you as a female Home Secretary? Well, look, I'm not going to get drawn into that because, quite frankly, this is such a fluid situation right now. And our priority as a government, and actually I know this, a priority of the international community,

I've spoken to many, many of my counterparts, is absolutely right now we are focused on getting people out of Afghanistan, our own citizens, our own nationals, but importantly, those individuals that have worked alongside us for many, many years to bring about the changes that obviously had been established over a significant period of time in Afghanistan. How many of the 5,000 that we're offering resettlement to in the first year will be women and girls? We are prioritising women and girls and others that are at risk from human rights abuses and dehumanising treatment. And this is a scheme, it's a bespoke scheme very much for that purpose. Now, Emma, I should just say a number of things about this scheme, because bear in mind the challenging situation on the ground, how fluid the situation is as well. The fact that many

agencies, in fact, the majority of agencies are no longer in Afghanistan as well. There'll be a great deal of work, there's a lot of work taking place already. In terms of identifying third party partners we can work with and how we can actually operationalise this scheme, both domestically, because obviously there's work that we need to do, there's work in progress right now on resettlement, how we go about that, locations in the country. But importantly, working within the region to get people out, to create safe routes, and then from that stage onwards to then look at getting people to the United Kingdom. So you'll appreciate, and I've been speaking to international counterparts around this as well, I don't think we can do this on our own.

We have to work together and support each other on this. Highly complicated and fluid, as you keep saying. But what percentage of the 5,000 are you targeting to be women and girls when you say you're prioritising? We want the majority of them to be women and girls and those that are persecuted minorities and the scheme is being developed very much with that in mind. And is that with the 20,000 over the several years is that the same that the majority of the 20,000 will be women and girls? Yes. So that can be said at this point. What do you say to the Labour peer but perhaps more importantly in this context, the former child refugee, Lord Dubbs, who has said your programme is not ambitious enough?

Quote, if the Canadians can take 20,000, why are we only taking 20,000 over several years? Well, first of all, what I'd say to that, I've actually spoken to my Canadian counterpart, and Canada have not announced details at all in terms of their scheme. But what they have said is around with regard to their figure of 20,000, they are also including within that locally employed staff that they're currently bringing over from Afghanistan. So in fact, we will be doing more than Canada. And we're already going over and beyond 20,000 because when we developed our locally employed resettlement programme, the ARRA programme that the Defence Secretary and I have worked on and we announced this back in April,

we've already brought over just over 2,000 people from that scheme. We've also changed various categories that can apply to this scheme. So at this stage right now, it looks as if we'll bring nearly 10,000 people over just through that scheme alone. So that's going above the Canadians. So it is. But the question also, though, is why is the number similar? Because I know this scheme's been modelled on the Syrian scheme under which 20,000 people have been resettled in this country since 2014. But why is the number similar?

Why is it not much bigger given Afghanistan's population is double that Syria, and the UK has been an active participant in the conflict? Well, first of all, we have to, and our plan reflects this as well, we have to be able to bring people over in terms of the numbers that we know that we can resettle. We have absolutely our outcomes, we want to have the right outcomes. I've touched on the domestic need for infrastructure, support, working with local councils, working with devolved administrations. That work is ongoing right now. But what I would just say, we know that we can resettle 5,000 and the 20,000 in the Syrian vulnerable persons resettlement scheme that took place over a seven year period from 2014 to actually up until this year to 2021 we know that things are fluid if there is more that we can do i can say this to you and your listeners now we will absolutely do that but we want to drive the

right outcomes it would be wrong for us just to bring people over and leave them in for example hotel accommodation so or barracks that aren't fit for purpose we only know eight weeks ago the high court found that napier barracks where asylum seekers have been staying ruled that that you putting them there was unlawful men living at the barracks told bbc conditions were inhumane no hot water electricity only one shower for 100 people so emma if i may that's actually incorrect. That is incorrect. So it was not unlawful. And we are using an APA barracks for accommodation purposes. And there've been many, many changes that have been put on site as well. And I think it's important to reflect that accommodation APA barracks is also used not that long ago, just up until last year for our

armed forces for our armed forces, for our military service personnel, people that are fought in countries such as Afghanistan. So these barracks are not inhumane. They are more than functional. There is plenty of space there. There are good accommodation facilities, there are recreational facilities, there are all sorts of facilities in place. Well, there had been separately, and we can't go into this now, I know you're very short for time, we've been concerned about COVID and the conditions there. But if I just use a different example, because it's very important when you're bringing over the majority of these people are going to be women and children, that they have a good life. So that's why you've made these

calculations. And Yvette Cooper, the Labour MP, Chair of the Home Affairs Select Committee, has detailed appalling conditions for asylum seekers being held in the atrium holding facility in Kent. She wrote to you with details of unaccompanied children housed in an office space for 10 days, a girl forced to sleep on a sofa for days on end. She says most people were sitting or lying on a thin mattress that covered the entirety of the floor. So Emma you're making actually the point for me in terms of when we bring people over here we need to give them the right facilities and the accommodation and yes but we haven't done that already with the people we have was my point I'm not making your point for you at all I'm showing you something else. Actually if I if I may you are in the sense that you're speaking about people that are coming to the country through illegal migration routes

I am creating a bespoke legal scheme to resettle people in the United Kingdom in the right and proper way. We want to stop flows of illegal migration, which is why through the Nationality and Borders Bill, the work that we're bringing forward, we're bringing forward fundamental structural changes to the asylum system. The asylum system is broken. It's been broken for 20 years. This is the first government in a long time that is seeking to bring about these changes. We want to stop irregular flows of migration to the United Kingdom because people are being... That's about roots. This is about when people... If I may, people are being trafficked. They're paying money to gangs and people smugglers to come here illegally. And roots are important because when there are humanitarian crises,

when there are people crises, when there are people suffering in the world, and believe you me, I've been to many refugee camps, I have seen humanitarian crises, I've dealt with concurrent humanitarian crises in my time as Development Secretary, we know that our country can do more and we are doing more through the creation of bespoke legal routes where we can settle people in a proper and respectful way and give them the opportunity to start a new life these people lose everything right now indeed and that's why you're supporting them in starting a new life which comes back to your point why 5 000 people why 5 000 people it's because we can resettle

5 000 people get the best outcomes yes but you're going to have to make sure the councils take their fair share because even those who have been we will do but so you're going to make sure of that because in 2018 andy burnham wrote to your predecessor warning of catastrophic failure of housing asylum seekers so not necessarily those who came here only in great in great manchester so so there is a difference in terms of asylum and what we are doing through resettlement schemes let me be clear about that now in terms of working with what we are doing through resettlement schemes. Let me be clear about that. Now, in terms of working with local councils, this isn't just the Home Office, Emma, this is a whole of government effort. The Prime Minister will speak about this later on today. You've heard me speak about this is why we have to work with our international counterparts.

Both the Prime Minister and I are discussing this with colleagues around the world. But domestically, this is my point about infrastructure. The community secretary will be working with local authorities, the whole of government, this is a whole of government effort, education, welfare, social services, accommodation is an absolutely vital aspect of this. People have seen horrors and such abhorrent things in Afghanistan. They will need welfare support, all sorts of care and compassion. And our listeners. We will be putting that in place, and that is exactly why. We are taking the lessons learned from the Syrian vulnerable persons resettlement scheme,

building upon many of the lessons there. We want to do this in the right and proper way. It takes time. It takes resourcing. Because you don't know yet when the first women will arrive, do you? So we're working through that right now. And I come back to my earlier point, we will have to work with partners in the region, including aid agencies, in terms of identifying them. And that work is taking place now. I know you've got to go to the House of Commons. I know you've got to go to the Chamber. But very briefly, our listeners all week have been asking here at Women's Hour what they can do. Would you

house a refugee? So I've actually been working with my local councils on this. So my county council is Essex County Council, and they are proudly taking people from Afghanistan. And in terms of what I would say what people can do, I would absolutely get on to local authorities around the country and say, please do more. Would you do it personally? Well, I'm personally involved in this already. And I have been through working with my own local authorities, my own communities. And I will continue to do that. And I would urge others around the country to do much of that as well. Having looked at that work, would you take a refugee into your home? Well, I appreciate you're saying into your own home.

Yes. We're working. You've got to look at this from where I am right now. This is very much about working on a resettlement scheme to give people the foundations to start a new life. So there is a lot of work that's taking place here. And, you know, people can come together. I should also add, if your listeners want to do more, one of the areas we saw that worked really well with the Syrian Vulnerable Persons Resettlement Scheme was community sponsorship. And community sponsorship is absolutely what we will be working to do much more on with local councils.

But that will be voluntary groups, that will be individuals, that will be voluntary groups. And as I've said, the community secretary will be working to really pull more focus on that with our cross-government work. Are you encouraging people to take refugees into their homes or not? Well that's not for me because there are all sorts of issues around you know people that come over, the support that they need. We have to look at everyone from a case-by-case basis, the care that they need, the welfare support and welfare provision. That is why there will always be a local authority interface. And that is really, really important. We want them to have homes of their own.

And that is effectively what we will be creating through this scheme. That is what we did and achieved through the Syrian Vulnerable Persons Resettlement Scheme. Just finally, if I may, is there anything you would like to say to female politicians in Afghanistan who are currently, we believe, having their homes checked and their doors painted in some instances to mark them out as women who stood up for democracy and try to rebuild a society under the West's vision? Well, what I'd say is that we have worked with them over many years now to effectively bring democracy, bring peace and stability and bring more liberties and freedoms to women. We still stand by that. The Taliban don't. We have absolutely stood by that. And the British government, working with our colleagues around

the world, will continue to drive and strive exactly those principles and it is important we will have to do this now with our regional colleagues our regional counterparts within the region this is a fluid situation of course but when it comes to the safety the protection of women and girls we want more women absolutely in positions of power in these really important positions in government as well but this is a changing situation on the ground. And right now, our focus is trying to do the right thing for vulnerable people in terms of how we can bring them to the United Kingdom and resettle them. Home Secretary, thank you very much for your time.

Thank you. Priti Patel there, just before she was heading into the House of Commons, before we came on air, that session is now going live. And the Prime Minister, of course, addressing the chamber as he's brought them back from summer recess. The MPs, that is, to talk about the situation in Afghanistan. Well, listening to that and those plans and what there are of them so far. Natasha Walter, founder of Women for Refugee Women.

Good morning. Good morning. How do you think the plan sounds so far? I just found that a very shocking and depressing interview with Priti Patel. I mean, I think there's a general consensus that this resettlement plan is way too small, given the scale of the crisis and the culpability that the UK bears for the current situation in Afghanistan. We clearly should be doing much, much more and trying to protect many, many more Afghan people who are at risk. And remember, you know, this, when we're talking about our responsibility to women and girls in Afghanistan, this isn't just about the women that

may have been working directly with the British Army. This is about the women that we have encouraged to come out of their homes, to take part in public life, to really step up, be educated, work, become journalists, politicians and so on. Because of the rhetoric that they heard from the West. And frankly, we're still hearing that kind of rhetoric from Preeti Patel. She's still talking about wanting to see more women in positions of power in Afghanistan. But it's only empty rhetoric at the moment. I mean, she says that she wants this resettlement scheme to prioritise women and girls, but there doesn't seem to be any concrete plan about how women are going to be brought to safety. I mean, I've spent the last couple of days talking to Afghan women, diaspora Afghan women, but who are still involved in civil society organisations on the ground.

They're directly involved in trying to bring women into safe houses so that they can start to make plans to flee the country. They are crying out for help and support from the UK government and others. Help that is not currently forthcoming? Well, the government would argue this morning that this is the beginning of the plan. This is what is happening and starting to become... But why is the plan only beginning now, is what I would ask. So that is a pertinent question. But can I just come back to something else that you said, which was around the number of people and that should be bigger, it should be more ambitious. It's something that has been said by the opposition and by other people familiar with these sorts of cases and experiences.

But what do you say to the response from Priti Patel around we have to make sure that we are able to house and properly give a life to those people? And of course, it will be more than 20,000. It'll be more like 30,000 when you take in. That's what she was saying there about interpreters and teachers. Yes, it's extraordinary, isn't she, how she's holding up her own failures, the failures of the UK government in terms of the terrible housing conditions and the lack of support they've given to asylum seekers over the years and say, well, we failed before. So obviously we fail again if we try and do any better now. I mean, this, you know, this record of failure is just extraordinary. And can I just correct you? It is not just the opposition who are saying that this number is too low.

There have been many, many voices from the Conservative Party raised as well. Indeed, sorry. This number is far too low. I was just saying that. David Davis, I think, said it should be over 50,000. I was only just saying that because I'm aware we haven't heard a Labour voice this morning. But yes, you are right. There are members of the Conservative Party.

Also, Tobias Elwood, former minister, has said that this is too low. Sorry, carry on. This is a cross-party consensus that this figure is far too low. I mean, already there are millions of displaced people within Afghanistan across borders. You know, Iran and Pakistan already have millions of Afghan refugees. Clearly, there'll be many more. There are Afghan refugees stuck in camps across Europe at the moment. And Emma, there are unrecognised Afghan refugees in this country at the moment waiting for decisions.

Priti Patel tries to draw this completely false distinction between the good refugees that are going to wait there for the resettlement scheme, be brought to this country and resettle properly, and the bad refugees that are taking other informal routes to seek safety. There is no such distinction. What, I wonder, would she say to, you know, women like, I met a woman in the Calais refugee camp a couple of years ago who'd made this dangerous journey across Europe with her children. She'd actually lost one of the children on that route because of the danger that she already faced in Afghanistan. People will take informal routes,

and the Borders Bill that Preeti Patel is still aiming to press ahead with will punish those people who take informal routes, including women and girls from Afghanistan. The Borders Bill is an assault on the rights of refugees. And all of us who care, who have been watching what's going on in Afghanistan, who feel that this country right now should be stepping up to protect women and girls in danger should also be standing up against the Borders Bill. Heather has just texted in to say, illegal asylum seekers is a construct of the media in the Home Secretary. Desperate people will use any means to reach safety and many other messages coming in at the Borders Bill.

Perhaps we could return to that with you on a different programme when we have more time to talk about it. Of course, a hotly contested. I'd appreciate that because it's absolutely the same issue. Well, I was going to say a hotly contested area already. And in light of this has another complexion, perhaps, because, of course, Priti Patel, not actually talking to us, but earlier on the Today programme was talking about how that she fails, that that actually may help because it will crack down on smugglers.

But, Natasha, we don't have the time, if I'm honest, to go into that now, but let's get you back on and have that chat. And perhaps we'll get Priti Patel as well back on with you when she's not having to be in the chamber. Natasha Walters, thank you very much. The founder of Women for Refugee Women. We did hear right at the start of the programme that clip from the Taliban spokesman,

Zabihullah Mujahid, who yesterday claimed that the rights of women could be respected or would be respected within the framework of Islamic law in Afghanistan, but there are fears about that, how that's going to be interpreted. Let's talk now to the BBC correspondent Yalda Hakim. Yalda, what do you make of that? It's within the framework of Sharia law. I don't find anything of what Zabihullah Mujahid said surprising. I've spent a lot of time speaking to the Taliban over the years. And I, as recently as three days ago, spoke to the Taliban leadership

as Kabul was falling. And he said the exact same thing. It's the exact same script, as is the script that they gave me in Doha four weeks ago before we had any idea that this horror would unfold and be unleashed on Kabul. He said exactly the same thing as what Zabila Mujahid said. And then I went to Kabul and I interviewed a frontline commander who said to me, girls shouldn't be going to school. No one in my village goes to school. He started off initially saying maybe girls can go to school up until the age of 12 or 13.

Then he dropped that down to 10. Then he said, no, I don't think they should go to school at all. Already, we're seeing in provinces across the country, women being turned away from university and told, wait till there's a further notice. Sure, in Kabul, we are seeing some girls return to school. We've seen TV presenters anchoring. But the eyes of the world are on Kabul. And the big question is, for how long before the lights go out and Afghan women are left there to fend for themselves? There was reports coming, and I know you speak to a lot of people there. In fact, you were born in Kabul and you've got a lot of connections. But there's reports coming out that women are going to be expected to have to wear gloves, that they aren't able to go back to a workplace where there are men.

So some of the specifics at least have been rumoured. Is there any reason to trust this face of the Taliban in your mind from your experience and what you've heard? I'm not sure what the Taliban have done for us to be able to legitimise them and trust them. They remain on sanction lists. The UN and US Treasury says they still have very strong links with al-Qaeda. I'm getting reports from across the country that they're hearing and seeing foreign fighters operating in the country. So that is already a breach of whatever trust they had with

the United States and their agreement that they had to say that they wouldn't turn Afghanistan into a safe haven. I was told that the rights of women would be respected, but I'm already hearing from women who have gone to the airport telling me that they're using whips to lash us. I saw some horrific images. Some videos. Yeah, and videos from the airport that women, brave women, have been able to film who have been left on their own now effectively.

You know, this is the strongest military alliance in history that couldn't defeat this group. And now it's been left to the Afghan women to fight for their own rights. There's also some unverified footage, isn't there, of women standing. It's like four women in a group holding some signs up, some form of resistance. They're incredibly brave. Absolutely.

And as you say, unverified, but from so many different sources who are there on the ground, female journalists who have said to me, I was there, I saw that they were doing that and the Taliban didn't quite know how to handle it or what on earth they were doing or why they were standing there. In the last week, Emma, and I'm sure on your program, you've had all these incredible women who've been speaking about their rights over the last week. I've had them on my TV screens. Suddenly, you can tell the difference. They're too scared to say they want to use an anonymous name.

They don't want to show their faces. Already in about the space of three or four days, we've seen a dramatic change. We'll speak again. Yalda Hakim, BBC correspondent. Thank you for putting us in the picture there. As I say, many messages coming in about your response to the government's response. I will come back to those. But I want to bring you to an extraordinary interview around an extraordinary court case, which happened a couple of weeks ago that we did bring to your

attention. You may remember when a woman took her birth father to court for raping her birth mother in the 70s. It is thought to be the first of its kind in terms of a court case. Well, today, you can hear from that woman. In her court victim statement, she had this to say, I am more than evidence, more than a witness, more than a product of rape. I am not your shame. Her mother was just 13 years old and had gone to a man's house to babysit children when she was raped.

Our guest today was conceived from that rape. That man is called Carvel Bennett and he was found guilty. A fortnight ago, he was sentenced to 11 years in prison. Now in her 40s, it's taken years for our guest to secure his rape conviction. We're not going to give her name for legal reasons. When I spoke to her on Monday, I began by asking her when and how she started off trying to get justice. I first had the idea around 2011, 2012,

with all the other historical cases, the high-profile historical cases that were then in the media, predominantly the Jimmy Savile case when I saw those cases I just realised well there's more I've got forensic evidence I've got documentary evidence in the form of social care files it now looks like the tide is turning that people are now interested in going after these historical abusers. And I thought, perfect, the timing's absolutely right. So I did about two years of research before I actually approached the police and social care in 2014. The judge in the court case, Judge Martin Hurst, highlighted your persistence. He said, quote, you'd met many closed doors, the pursuit of justice must be commended. And I do commend you for taking those

steps. What were some of those closed doors? Closed doors were firstly, starting with Birmingham City Council, now Birmingham Children's Trust. I approached the safeguarding board. They weren't particularly interested. I was responded to by a business manager, council leader at the time. It was kind of just waving me off, actually. I highlighted, you know, this is a child protection safeguarding issue. I'm a social worker. I know exactly who to go to, what doors to navigate in terms of the system, and just thought it was unbelievable that a social care department, a safeguarding board, were not interested. It was very much like, well, there's nothing we can do, speak to the police.

The police were initially open to having a conversation with my birth mother. That wasn't how I approached them. I approached them as, I want to pursue this in my own right. Why should she have to go through this? The allegation is documented, documented by a social worker, references to police. This is the allegation that she was raped? Yes. The police at the time said there wasn't enough evidence.

You've got a 13-year-old, pregnant, disclosing the name of the perpetrator. And I think for me it speaks to race, class, misogyny. Your mum is black? She's black, Caribbean. Your birth mother, I should say. And you think she wasn't taken seriously because of race and her age or anything else?

Race, age, class, all of it. Working class. Working class family of Jamaican heritage. The police weren't taking them seriously. In fact, my birth father stated in court when he was spoken to by the police, he recalls police officers laughing. That's not shocking to me. That is not shocking to me at all.

That's exactly how I would imagine they would have responded. And how old was he? 29 at the time. But when did you find out that you were conceived by rape? I found out I was conceived in rape when I went to seek my social work files at 18. Legally by law, you can then access your files. Prior to that I had a small amount of documentation that my adoptive parents showed me. That documentation said birth mother was 14, birth father between 30 and 35. I was a child at the time when I read that so I didn't automatically

go to that was rape, that was assault. I was so focused on wanting to see my birth mother that that wasn't the main point I was focused on. However, when I got my files back when I was 18, I wasn't surprised, but it was still shocking to read that. And I guess the shock of just seeing that is that people didn't do anything. And I think the main impact for me at that stage was that I was very clear that this would mean my birth mother may not want to see me if indeed she was alive. I didn't know what kind of life she'd have had, what just this could have done to her. So again really emotionally difficult to be thinking

somebody I probably thought about every day of my life may not want to see me because of what this perpetrator did and nobody cared nobody cared did that lead you to not try and find your mother no I still um sought to trace her with the help of my adoptive father started tracing soon after getting the files. It was a sort of gradual process. And finally met her probably about 18 months later when I was about 20. And how was that? Just really bizarre. I did probably the worst thing you could do in the ranging of adoption reunion.

And that was that I stayed the weekend. I went up and stayed the weekend um god do I regret that now I don't think I do regret that now I think I was so overwhelmed and grateful that she wanted to meet me right um I didn't set out to establish a mother-child relationship had my own adoptive family um It was just, unless you're adopted, I can't think you can really understand that yearning to get the information about your roots, that curiosity, the need to know. And as horrific as the story was, I still wanted to meet her, still was curious. And did it come up in that first meeting about how

you'd been conceived? I was very careful about not directly asking you know really traumatising before I met her I didn't know if I looked like her or looked like him would I be turning up and I've got the face of her rapist so So I was very careful not to ask direct questions. You know, this was the first meeting. My priority at that stage was meeting her and understanding her life experience. And did you form a bond over that weekend? No, I think a bond attachment, it takes time. The last time she would have seen me was at seven days old, having to leave me in a hospital.

And your journey to this point where you started to try and want some kind of justice, is that because you wanted to do it for her, with her, as part of a relationship with her, or is it very much for you? It was for me and for her. To know that a child would be so grossly let down was horrendous and she deserved better. So it was for her but also for me. And was it with her consent? Did she want to do this? I approached my birth mother in 2014 after doing lots of research and said I want to try and do this in my own right. I don't think you should have to come forward.

You've done that already and the people who had the responsibility did nothing. There's all this information plus I am DNA evidence that wasn't available. My intention isn't to have you involved. It's for me to be able to do a victimless evidence-based prosecution. So I thought, yeah, this is hopefully going to get somewhere and justice for both of us. I'm talking to you now because a man raped a child. That's the reason I'm alive. I was separated from my culture, identity, history,

the impact on my mental health, on my sense of self. How am I not a victim? Did you have to have your birth mother involved for this to proceed? Did you have to get her on board? It turned out that that was the one thing that made that change. So despite from 2014, going to the police constantly, each time I found some more information, I got to the point I traced my birth father. I had a work appointment in Birmingham one week. I said, I'll be in Birmingham next week. I'll come in and take my DNA. No, not interested, not the victim. So it came down to you had to find a way to see if she would do this with you well my intention was always not to have her involved I know you know I understand

having worked with trauma the impact of this um for me to feel like I am responsible for re-traumatizing my birth mother and pressuring a rape victim. That was never my intention, absolutely never my intention. So I kept persevering. I connected with a journalist for the Birmingham Mail and hoped that police and social care would take notice, local MPs would take notice. Not a word from any of them. Not a word from any of them.

And it was only when I sent that article into the Victoria Derbyshire Show in December 2018 that things began to change. Of course, that used to come from here at the BBC, I should say. What was it that persuaded your birth mother to testify in the end, do you know? I'm not completely sure. I know the Victoria Derbyshire show was a catalyst for her to be thinking more about making a statement in her own right. But I'm also aware that the police turned up on her doorstep. The Victoria Derbyshire show was broadcast on Monday 5th August. The police turned up on her doorstep that Saturday. So very quickly?

Yeah. No contact with me. Because, of course, you'd been driving this. Yeah. And my treatment by the West Midlands Police has been hostile. It's been punitive. Their approach to this case has been divisive. They've caused even more of a difficult issue between me and my birth mother just with their conduct. Did you go to your birth father's house? I did, I did. Got to the point when I was getting nowhere from with the police and said I found him. I'm

pretty sure it's him considering the little information I had. I didn't even have his accurate name and address but I've clearly got very good sleuthing skills. I was about to say. Yeah, I mean I managed to find the social worker at the time. You know, that's how far back I went. I went to see him in July 2015. My partner at the time and I were talking. I said, this isn't just, this is going on and on. I'm not going to give up, but I know where he is.

So we went up to Birmingham, had a hidden camera. We knocked on the door. I said, are you Carvel Bennett he said yes I said I think I'm your daughter and he said oh come in now the recording only captures in terms of video his face then and the rest of its sound when When you see the recording, there's a perceptible smile on his face. Then spent 40 minutes with him in his home, asking him, well, you know, do you remember my mother babysitting? Oh, oh yes, she babysat once. He said to me, well, you look like my daughter, other daughter. He said that he'd been invited in by a social worker to do a paternity test which would have been a blood test never heard anything back said that um when he was spoken to he didn't think it was him because of the timing i did say outright to him well did you have sex with her and he just

responded well if you have sex with somebody doesn't mean you make a baby and that was it I hadn't actually didn't really think about how am I going to wrap this up yeah um so I was just like well this is all weird isn't it and he was like yeah this is the most surreal experience this is a bizarre experience you see things like this on tv yeah don't you took his phone number thank you for your time I think we had a brief hug and off we went. Did you look like him? I can see some similarities. When you meet your birth father, of course,

you're in a situation as both, as you say, an adoptee, being reunited, but also trying to get justice. Was there any part of you that could feel anything towards him resembling anything other than, you know, the hate or the fear that you might feel towards someone who had raped your birth mother? Alongside all of that, absolute curiosity about how he'd lived his life. It's actually part of that meeting. He gave me more history, family history. So on top of the horror of what he did, for me, my right is to know about all of that. And he gave me snippets of that. And in terms of having this time, getting this day in court, which, as you say, eventually had to have your birth mother testifying. What

was that like, actually, getting to court before you even get to the conviction, managing to do that? I mean, just managing to that, just going back on your other question, I did have further contact with him because I sent the Birmingham Mail article to him and said remember meeting me I'm trying to get you prosecuted that was the only other contact and then the next contact was at court and what we're talking now about a man in his 70s we should say as well yeah so court happens court happened obviously there were two court hearings last year May and August every opportunity for him to say guilty, considering the weight of evidence, and by that stage DNA tests had been done, and so just horrendous that he would make my birth mother go through that by not saying guilty, and also, you know, he was out

on bail. Court was rescheduled, the hearing was scheduled for may initially but then with all the backlogs then when it was postponed excruciating you know and then the actual court date 29th of july and again right up until the last minute ready for that to be cancelled covid i was reading other newspaper articles about other trials that had had to be sort of suspended. But yeah, went to Birmingham the morning of the 29th. He was pretty much the first person I saw. He had his back to me. He was the first person I saw when I walked into court.

Victim and witness care, well-meaning, but there was no special care for me. You did go in, though. Yep. And you did see him being convicted. So 29th of July was the first time I'd been in a physical space with both my genetic parents. That's something in itself, isn't it? Yeah. I say to people it was a birth family reunion in the backdrop of a rape trial.

Which is extraordinary. Yeah. How were you feeling? How was I feeling? I don't know. I can't even. I don't even know if I have the words. Just extraordinary to even be there.

Extraordinary to be able to even look at him, because that's the first time I've looked at him when it has been confirmed, the DNA test has come through. My birth mother's there. We had not really been in touch. Last time we were in physical contact with each other, 2017. Before that, hadn't been for another 15 years. There's no established bond or relationship with either of these people.

Fortunately, Solista was there. I had friends come with me both those days, two different friends who are incredible, so protective of me. So emotional. It's been so painful. And they've seen me in pain. But it takes, you know know I call them my crew yeah it takes special special people to be able to be there in such horrific traumatizing circumstances I couldn't

have done it without that support and even with that it's felt a really lonely, isolating journey. Every time I'm picking up the phone or email to child protection experts, solicitors, MPs, people either ignore me or you're hearing, you're not the victim. What did it feel like to see him be convicted? Just incredible. Just incredible. him be convicted just incredible just incredible you know I you see other people campaigning Hillsborough perfect example I just thought those families how much you know it's like David and Goliath how is this even going to be achievable and then the sentence on top of that just remarkable just remarkable really were you looking for him to respond in a certain way?

No. Were you looking for any remorse? No, and I know there's been a lot of coverage about he didn't show remorse, he didn't apologise. Of course he's not going to apologise. You know, the man's 74. He had every opportunity in the other two hearings last year to admit guilt, even if he didn't mean it.

He was never going to show remorse. Showing remorse is an admission of guilt, and he he didn't mean it, he was never going to show remorse. Showing remorse is an admission of guilt, and he's still not done that, so that didn't surprise me. But it is an incredible achievement by you to have done this, to have found a way to get this form of justice all these years on. Do you see it like that? I think it still hasn't fully sunk in. Actively looking into this since 2011, 2012,

this only happened just less than two weeks ago. Two weeks today he was convicted. It still hasn't dawned on me, because I think when I said to someone the other day I think of this baby left in hospital who's you know your the odds were against me and to think that I conceived in rape has actually done this is still incredible for me to digest. Will that help you do you think? Yeah. That you've done this? Yeah I think for me part of the justice is for him to be called to account he's absolutely responsible for the rape absolutely right that he got a prison sentence full justice isn't achieved until the council and the police force are called to account these systems don't change they want people like me to be quiet to be brushed under the carpet

it must be very humiliating for them it should be humiliating for them that they deemed me vexatious didn't even meet with me didn't even look at the evidence. And now a judge in a rape trial has said to them, you know, this has happened because of this woman. And this is also somebody who's as much a victim. That's what I've been trying to say to people. So yeah, that was incredible. So it's also it's very key just to highlight one part of that as well to have the definition of victim extended. Yes. That's what, I mean, are you going to still fight?

Absolutely. This is part of what it's been about. Part of this fight has been about justice for my birth mother and justice for me. But it's a wider issue. It's not just me this has happened to. There is no kind of identified community for people conceived in rape. There's people I've spoken to saying, God, you're so brave, you're putting your head above the parapet because nobody talks about it.

Your relationship with your adopted family, how is that? Because you've gone through an extraordinary thing and now it's very much in the public eye. Yeah. What's that been like? My adopted family did the best that they could, you know. When I was placed for adoption, the message was love's enough. There was nothing about meeting the needs of a child that doesn't meet kind of your cultural identity.

And they were white, white, white adopters. Yeah. And I mean, I had an extremely close attachment with my adoptive father particularly. And that's been a huge feeling of loss. He died 20 years ago and just missed him in this fight. A lot of messages coming in off the back of that interview for instance Dean Suffolk says what a brave woman she is amazing I think she is astonishing. We have a statement from the West Midlands Police we met with the rape victim on the 11th of August and that's our contributor's mother and discussed the case with her, including media coverage.

She remains really clear. She does not want to waive her right to be anonymous and does not want to enter in a dialogue about her case in public. We respect the victim's wishes. Offender Carville Bennett was found guilty of rape following our investigation and has been jailed for 11 years.

And Birmingham Children's Trust said in a statement since April 2018, children's social care services in Birmingham have been provided by Birmingham Children's Trust. Since then, we've had no contact with your contributor. We would, of course, be very happy to meet with her if she could find that valuable. It is certainly the case that the way the allegations and incidents of harm to children are handled now

is very different than was the case in the 70s. And so we'd be happy to discuss this with her when we meet. And as I say, huge reaction to that. But there's also been, at this time in our lives, a huge reaction to things coming back to our life and to our cultural lives, no less, because the much-celebrated musical Tina has recently reopened in the London West End,

telling the life story, of course, of Tina Turner. Aisha Diwando has been part of the company since it premiered in spring 2018, previously playing Tina's sister, but now she steps into the lead role. She joins me now at Tina Turner slash Aisha Jawando. Good morning. Good morning. Thank you so much for joining us. What is it like to play her in her life story like this? It's heavy in a sense that it's quite a big mantle to carry. And I want to do that, give it the best I can, give it all that I can and play the seriousness of it, the love of it, the lightness of it

and the ferociousness of it. There is. I mean, it's a huge story because it's very graphic in many ways, isn't it? You have to portray the violence that she suffered and also how she fought back. That must be something as well to prepare for. Yeah. So we actually have a fight coordinator who says, you know, this foot here, this hand here, just make sure nothing goes wrong on stage. But actually, the part where Tina does fight back is something that not only myself as an actor feel liberated and feel power and but also you hear the roar from the audience as well

which kind of let you know that you're doing your job right and actually there are many people out there who would happily you know fight to stop such abuse going on. And I hope they do. You've met Tina Turner, haven't you? Yeah, I have, yeah. But you're not sure or she hasn't seen you in the role? I don't think she's seen me in the role, no. Okay.

You don't want to know though if she's in the audience, I bet. No, no, no. What's Tina Turner like? I mean, I have to say, full disclosure, I'm a massive fan. And also, Simply the Best is kind of one of my songs. So I've got to declare that. But what is she like? She's amazing. to say full disclosure i'm a massive fan and also simply the best is kind of one of my songs so i've got to declare that but what is she like she's amazing honestly she's so down to earth she's warm i always describe her as your favorite auntie you can't let her get away with stuff

and she's just a wonderful woman no ego about her no sense of i'm better than anyone about her she's just so welcoming and warm and she did you know defied the bounds of racism sexism and ageism because of of when she sort of started to come back and come into her own as well yeah you are going to give us a bit of a treat yes to end today's program which is such a joy for all of us uh and what's love got to do with it yes can you tell us who you're performing with so you could describe to our listeners who's with you here Karina who's our percussionist within the show hello she's amazing and we have Marco who is on guitar who is also part of the show wonderful they're waving to us because we haven't got the mics they've got different mics for their

music can I welcome you to the microphone and we are as I say going to hear a very iconic Tina Turner song What's Love Got To Do With It and performing it Aisha Jawando. That it's only the thrill of boy meeting girl Opposites attract, it's physical Only logical You must try to ignore that it means more than that Oh, what's love got to do Got to do with it What's love but a secondhand emotion What a performance and what a song.

Thank you so much to the three of you for performing this morning. What does it mean or what's going through your mind when you sing that particular song? Because you know all the stories. Yeah, it's... For me, she's had two loves, Or what's going through your mind when you sing that particular song? Because you know all the stories. Yeah. It's, for me, she's had two loves, two love of her life throughout the story and the show that people get to see. And she's had to leave both of them because she's chasing something bigger, so to speak.

She's chasing this dream that she's always had. And at this point, it's the second love of her life that she's speaking to and she's come to a crossroad and she's thinking I have the opportunity to still make this dream come true or if I stay here with you that's kind of off the cards. So what has love got to do with it? What has love got to do with it? It's a massive question. And I think we could do a whole programme on it.

Maybe we will. But I have to sadly call time because our time is over. Aisha Jawanda in Tina Turner, playing Tina. Thank you so much for coming into the studio. A huge treat for us all. Thank you for your company today. We'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for's woman's hour thank you so much for your time join us again for the next one hello i'm pandora sykes and just before you go i wanted to tell you about a new podcast pieces of britney my attempt to piece together the life of britney spears and the forces that

have forged it a huge fan fan, yeah, absolutely. A fan of not just the performer, but the person. I think that a lot of people were rooting for Britney to fail and there's this sort of assumption of, you know, this is what you wanted, this is what you're going to get. In this eight-part series for BBC Radio 4, I've spoken to cultural thinkers, lawyers, psychologists and key players in the entertainment industry

to get their perspective on Britney's remarkable story and enduring legacy. I used her as an example of somebody who really got what was required to do that kind of work. We're also using drama to help us look behind the headlines and the conflicting accounts to imagine the woman underneath. Join me for Pieces of Britney. Subscribe now on BBC Sounds.

I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.