Woman's Hour - Professor Jo Phoenix tribunal victory, Actor Sarah Greene

Episode Date: January 23, 2024

In an exclusive interview, Emma Barnett speaks to the academic Professor Jo Phoenix who has won an unfair dismissal claim against the Open University after she was compared with “a racist uncle at the Christmas table” because of her gender critical beliefs.New York Times writer Amanda Taub brings us the latest news from the US Presidential race.Irish actor Sarah Greene on her new project, an eight-part series – Sexy Beast – which has just launched on Paramount+. And we hear about a campaign to get a new portrait of Margaret Bondfield, the first female government minister, commissioned and hung in Parliament with MP Alison McGovern and historian Professor Pam Cox.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Lisa Jenkinson Studio Manager: Tim Heffer

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Please note that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Professor of Criminology Jo Phoenix was compared with a racist uncle at the Christmas table That comment from a former colleague. She'll be speaking to me shortly in her first interview after winning her tribunal that was announced yesterday. Interestingly, in a statement from her former employer, Open University Vice-Chancellor Professor Tim Blackman said he was disappointed by the judgment and will be considering whether to appeal, but also that the university could learn from it. He said, quote,

Where is that line? We will get to that with the professor shortly. But have you seen this debate play out in your workplace? Do you think something is changing? Anything is changing. Jo Phoenix's win is the latest in a series of such cases and victories for women. What do these potential changes mean in your life?

Text me here, as always, 84844. That's the number you need to text me here at Woman's Hour. Text will be charged at your standard message rate on social media or at BBC Woman's Hour. Email me your view on this or any experiences through the Woman's Hour website or why not go for a WhatsApp message or voice note. Very few of you do this, but I'd love to hear your voices. 03700 100 444. And just watch those charges. Also on the programme today, one woman left standing between Biden-Trump, the older male rematch or grudge match, as it's been termed by some,

Nikki Haley, the Republican hopeful, is trying to disrupt the status quo and enter the race for the White House. But can she do it? And maybe the bigger question of all, how did we get here? Today marks 100 years since the first female cabinet minister was appointed. But do you know her name and her story? That's part of the story we're going to explore today. And I will tell you all about her. And remember this? A sweaty Ray Winston. Perhaps you'd rather forget, but it was iconic. The opening shot of Sexy Beast.

Now there is a TV prequel to it, starring the actor Sarah Green, aka the eyepatch-wearing one from Bad Sisters, or you might know her as Connell's mum from Normal People. She'll be here to talk about getting her sexy on for that new TV role. All to come. But first, Arts Council England and Westminster City Council are some of the public institutions to recently lose tribunals against former female employees who had expressed gender critical views and then been attacked as transphobic or discriminatory and were made to feel by colleagues that they were no longer fit to do

their jobs. Now the Open University is the latest to lose a case against a feminist former member of staff, the Professor of Criminology, Jo Phoenix, my first guest this morning. Professor Phoenix set up the Gender Critical Research Network at the Open University and was also found to have suffered victimisation, harassment and direct discrimination. A reminder, if you need it that gender critical

feminists believe sex is biological immutable and should be prioritised over gender identity we can get into some of that with her research very shortly but Professor Phoenix let me first welcome you to the programme good morning good morning thank you very much for having me thank you for for being here and uh it was quite a day, I imagine, for you yesterday. What did that mean, that ruling? Well, it meant everything. It's very difficult to even find a single word for what it meant. I wasn't expecting it. I mean, I was hoping for the win, but I wasn't expecting the judgment yesterday. I had kind of settled in for a long wait, if you like. After all, Rachel Mead's case took seven months before she got her judgment.

And so when I got the message from the wonderful, amazing solicitor that I've had, Annie Powell from Lee Day, that the judgment was in and I was able to look at it. well, let's just say it blew apart any plans I had for the day completely. You just mentioned Rachel Mead there, and I had mentioned in my introduction about a series of cases recently. She's a social worker who was suspended for expressing gender-critical beliefs. So Westminster Council was her employer, just to remind people, because not everybody is as across this.

Apologies. No, no, no, please don't apologise. I just like to always bring our listeners with us if I can. I recognise it's difficult to express how that felt, but you felt you had no choice to take this fight. Is that right? Oh, 100 percent. It's very difficult. I am of a generation of academics who was taught that, at least to public debate, to understand policies. So when I saw the effect that Stonewall was having in universities, and we can come to that later if you'd like to, it certainly was one of the contributing factors to what happened to me, I became very worried. In addition to that, because of my own academic expertise around issues to do with male violence and female victims of it I thought that actually now was the time that I could speak up now I say

that Emma because and forgive me I hope this doesn't sound arrogant I don't like to feel that way by the time 2018-2019 rolled, I'd already had my professorship. I'd had some amazing jobs at wonderful universities. And I was settling into being just a senior professor, if you like. And in that position, there's very little that a university can take away from you if you're doing something that is like heterodox or out of favor. So I thought I, amongst others, could speak because many of my younger colleagues couldn't. However, what I did not anticipate and what I never thought of was that they could take my name away from me, my mental health away from me, and my good working relations, not just in the Open University,

but nationally and internationally. So I suppose on one level, I was a little naive. And if I can go on, I was going to say that we will come to what your concerns were and all of this and actually your work, which is important to get to as well, your field of study. I don't have a statement from Stonewall, but you can put those concerns out in a moment. And I have interviewed the former chief exec before myself, but on this programme, which people could listen to as well. But I wanted to come to what actually happened to you,

because that's a huge thing to say that they took your name and you say Open University did that, the culture, I imagine, around that. You're talking about colleagues. I quoted one of your colleagues. What did happen to you? The story is quite, I'll try and distill it because it's a very long and very sorry tale. In 2019, a conference that was due to take place at the Open University with the Centre for Crime and Justice Studies was cancelled.

And at that point, I made it clear to all of my colleagues how much I disagreed with the cancellation of that conference. The conference had been cancelled because the director of the Center for Crime and Justice Studies was accused by several of my colleagues of being a transphobe for tweeting happy human female day on international women's day and despite what they said to me I knew that at least you know two or three of my colleagues cancelled that conference because of accusations of transphobia. Anyway I won't go into the details of that but it was at that moment that I made it very publicly known to my colleagues that I was both gender critical and that I thought that accusations of transphobia had no place in a university and certainly no place in a university

to close down debate. Now around that time I had also signed both of the letters penned by Kathleen Stock, now known as the Stock Letters if if you like, and the Guardian and the Times. I had given a talk for an organization called Women's Place UK and various other things. So I was building up, if you like, a corpus of statements, at least, saying that accusations of transphobia were wrong, that, you know, in some circumstances, for some organisations, it's more important to categorise by sex rather than gender identity, and that accusations of transphobia function to cancel academics and silence them. Anyway, we fast forward, there's a lot in the judgment, if people want to read about the background, they can.

But I suppose what you're saying there is what you did to allow people around you to know your position um which is important to lay out but what was the could you give us i mean people can go and read the judgment but could you give us a flavor of what happened to you in response oh yeah yeah so you know you mentioned i got called the racist uncle at the christmas dinner table um and i'm, very pleased to see that vindication and the judgment. One of my colleagues called me in for a talk in the course of that talk. She made that comment. I was very upset. I was crying. And, you know, that's not something I do at work.

So that happened. There was silence within my own department. The things that I did that were successful uh were were hardly ever mentioned um certainly wasn't given praise but then we get to a very critical moment so there was all sorts of ostracization silencing whispering campaigns complaints to my dean nobody ever faced me with these. This was stuff that went behind. So there was a feeling of hostility, if you like. But then shortly after the Forstater judgment came through, the appeal judgment, myself, John Pike, and a number of others opened the OU Gender Critical Research Network. And if I were to say to you, the day that we did

that was both the proudest moment of my life so far, well, second proudest moment of my life, I'll come to the first one later. But it was also one of the darkest days of my life, because within hours of us launching that, the hostility campaign, the public targeted campaigns of hostility just went into hyperdrive. My direct colleagues, I mean, people that I've known and worked with, opened an open letter on Google Docs. They published to the world that the Open University Gender Critical Network was transphobic. Several other colleagues from across the university penned other open letters that, to my knowledge, may even still be up on the Open University's internal websites.

And all of these letters said the same thing. Gender critical beliefs and the Gender Critical Research Network is transphobic, that the Open University ought to close it down, that we were contributing to the, in some cases, one of the letters said we were contributing to the murder of trans people. So it was very, very direct. Now, they claimed that it was about the network

and not about me, but I was one of the founding members of it. And then, of course, once things got public, there was a Twitter pile on the like of which I've never, I've never experienced in my life. And within days around that time period, my memory is very hazy. I had what can only be described as a post-traumatic break. I lost it, basically. I fell apart. And then shortly after that, I wrote a grievance to the university. I put out my case to the university that all of these complaints about transphobia were vexatious, that they were humiliating, and that they were not academic freedom, that this was a hostile campaign against me.

And the OU, for various reasons, basically took a very, very long time to pursue that grievance. And even to today, there has not been a result of that grievance. Meanwhile, the Open University were making statements on their public website, as well as internally, that they recognised that the OUGCRN had caused harm to the trans and non-binary community. But they actually never, certainly in those early days,

they actually never said that gender critical beliefs were protected in law. And the key tribunal finding, just taking it back to yesterday, is that the Open University did not protect you during this time. Yes. Yeah. There was a failure to protect me. And the failure to protect me in the tribunal finding was because the OU did not want to be seen to be siding with anyone with gender critical views. Now, what's really, really important to this whole judgment and this process is that I was working in an organization that had more or less, you know, kind of, I want to say imbibed, my words aren't very good today, but, you know, had drunk the culture of Stonewall. So it was an organisation in which gender affirmative views were in the majority. So the idea that if you say you are a woman, if you say you are a man,

you are those things, if I could put it in those terms. Yeah, yeah. And you're, I mean, you're ascribing that to the influence of Stonewall and perhaps we'll get to, you know, for those who don't know, the charity that is, of course, famous as well for its work on lesbian and gay rights. Again, hotly contested whether people feel it's still doing that. But we can get to that. You're saying you feel that that culture had been imbibed. Go on. Well, it was one. And, you know, we can debate about the influence of Stonewall.

And I'm prepared to bracket that off. What I can say to you was that there was a deeply ingrained culture that self-identity ruled supreme and that any form of gender critical the OU didn't actually back me. And when I say back me, just make simple statements like Joe's gender critical beliefs and those of the OU GCRN are protected. Nothing like that happened. So we were basically I say we because, you know, it's not just me. It's the other members of that network were basically in the eye of a hideous, hideous public targeted campaign. And the OU failed in its job. And that causes me a great deal of grief because I once loved the OU. Yes, I read that you wished to retire there, and that was where you wanted to carry on your work and keep going.

What has and what was the impact on you personally? Oh, I mean, again, these are things that hyperbole doesn't even get there. It has been the hardest four to five years of my life, six years. And, you know, anyone who read my witness statement will know I've had quite a background already. But the last, since everything started in 2019, I've had quite a background already. But the last, since everything started in 2019, I've gone, you know, it affected my mental health. As I've said, I've gone to some very dark places. As a professional academic, I occupy a position of doubt. And so for the last several years, I've been like, I think I have a case. I really think

I have a case. I think all have a case I think all of this was wrong but what if I'm wrong because because I mean you felt you had to resign I just want to make sure we've also put that in the in the listeners mind and they know that um you know it should be relatively obvious for the fact you had a tribunal we should say that you felt you had to do that but and you also just alluded to having dealt with very difficult things in your past um are you able to to say more about that and how this was in comparison because i think that's an important thing to be able to um calibrate the effect this sort of situation can have on people because you have a voice to do that yeah yeah i mean it's it's out in the public domain uh when i

was a teenager i grew up in texas i'm english. When I was a teenager, I grew up in Texas. I'm English. My parents emigrated over there. I grew up in Texas. And when I was a teenager, I was raped by two boys, well, one man, one girl, one boy at school. And I took the case through on both of their, I made a complaint to the police and went through

the whole criminal justice process as a teenager i was 15. um at that point it blew apart my ability to do anything and i was a runaway and trust and believe in the 1970s if you're a young lesbian runaway you see things you really shouldn't have seen And so by the time I got to the age of 18, I spent three years and it's not something I want to go into detail, but just say, I know a lot about street life. And by the time I was 18, I was able to come over here and begin to heal so having to survive and and i say survive my early life to then be at a point in my later career where i'm looking at my own employer and saying please believe me that these awful things are happening to be then treated like i was um i mean it was kind of like insult upon insult upon injury upon deep hurt. Because the thing is, is that a lot of that public campaign, and as the tribunal found, that was conscious, it was targeted, it was widespread. That wasn't by accident. And, you know, my direct

colleagues who I worked with, knew my history of sexual violence. You know, so those kind of like spiraling effects, they end up destroying your own sense of who you are professionally and personally. And then to have to take or have the, I mean, people talk about it as courage. I don't know if it's that. But to have the ability to wake up each morning and go back to the Crowd Justice Fund to ask people for money. I hate asking people for money. But to have to ask people for money to fund a public case. about yet is the effect of actually being in that hearing and having a very good kc cross-examine you was perhaps as bad as the experience at the ou as the experience in my young life i said to you earlier that second proudest moment my my first proudest moment was, again, it's a matter of public record. I broke down on the last day that I was being cross-examined,

and the judge kindly gave me some time to collect myself. I went out. I had a cigarette. I know I shouldn't admit that. I was with my partner and one of my witnesses, Professor Sarah Earle, who's been there with me throughout. They managed to calm me down. The thing I am most proud of was after all of that, I walked back into that hearing knowing that I was going to get another extreme cross-examination.

And I was able to sit through three weeks of that. I mean, it's very striking to hear. You said it very briefly there, but that this experience is even in any way comparable to surviving a rape and the process that followed a rape in terms of the impact it's had on you. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, if you think about it, right, our criminal justice system is, you know, adversarial. The tribunal system is also adversarial. So the opposite side's job I've been discriminated against, is to basically argue, no, you haven't. Now, where do we know that story from? I've been raped. No, you haven't. And as I sat there in the box, if you like, being cross-examined, in the back of my head, I was just going through literally the the kind of tactics that are used within a rape trial going tick that one now i'm going to get accused of this now i'll be accused of that and almost every single one of them from attention seeking to to not really being that upset to

you know just all of those things that women victim get thrown at in court. I mean, I don't want to be hyperbolic about this, but that's what happens when we have to subject ourselves to what is in effect an adversarial justice, civil justice system. So, yeah. So, yeah, sorry, what were you about to say? The parallels were too big for me. And, I mean, that was one of the reasons that I actually broke down was because

I couldn't deal with it anymore. Have any of your colleagues been in touch, either since you mounted this case, the ones who accuse you of being transphobic, or since your victory? I know it was only yesterday, since your win. Have they ever said, you know what, I've had a think about this uh calling you a racist uncle through to whatever else was said or written no no you know and i'm i'm almost 100 convinced that you know of the 360 plus people who signed that open letter they were all people who were at the ou colleagues not students um of all of those people who signed that letter, I can imagine that there's a good percentage that got caught up in a moment, if you like, and just like the mob moment,

that probably regret what they did. But there has not been a single person yet who has apologized for a misplaced tweet, apologized, or even just said, as you said, you know, I've had to think about this, maybe it was a bit wrong. And you stand by as you said, you know, I've had to think about this. Maybe it was a bit wrong. And you stand by the fact that, you know, nothing that you feel you've tweeted or said or done. This is not calling into question yesterday's ruling at all. Is anything you should think about again, because tempers are very hot on this in terms of your whole thing is around freedom of speech. I know you care deeply about it. You want to be able to have those arguments freely and without people, you know, not saying what they think. Is there anything that you've reflected on? No, I mean, I would say, and I've said it in the court of law,

and I said it to anyone who will listen to me, I do have a potty mouth. I am known for swearing. So one or two of my tweets have been a little sweary Mary. There's no two ways about it. You know, some of my tweets have been very gallows humor, but certainly in my professional conduct and when I'm actually beginning to talk about the real issues, no, there is nothing. I stand by everything that I have said.

And indeed the tribunal found that, you know, they went through three years of private conversation. But people, again, may not read the judgment. And I think it's important to ask you the question because I'm very struck. We've got a lot of messages, you know, reacting to different parts of what you've had to say and many in support have to say as well. But we have a message that's come in here and we don't have time to go through in a lot of detail, but I hope you'll come back. Well, no, but I hope you'll come back to talk about your area of expertise because it's something we do talk about on the program and i've certainly done many interviews in this area but it pertains to this which is this message here which says i'm a woman i'm not young i'm not lgbtq plus

and i'm not afraid of trans people i don't know what you're afraid of this is directed to you i don't feel compromised you seem to like freedom of speech as long as it's yours. Trans is a protected characteristic and should be as they are a vulnerable minority. And I suppose I wanted to give you the chance to respond to that because I was interested in your research and how it relates, you know, your area of academic expertise relates to your gender critical beliefs around criminology, around where we put prisoners in this country? Very, very happily. I'm not afraid of trans people. And I, you know, I strongly support people's right to identify as they wish.

You know, it would be ridiculous for me not to. I'm a lesbian, for goodness sake. And I, you know, was around before the Equality Act. But there's a difference between supporting trans individuals or supporting everyone in their identity and their self-expression and how we organize complex organizations like prisons or like hospitals, for instance. So the thing isn't about being afraid of trans people,

and it's not about freedom of speech or not, but we have to be able to ask in the context of prisons, for instance, is a self-identification policy in which male-bodied individuals who identify as women write for the prisons. You know, the prisons is not, you know, it's not like, I don't know, cinemas. Prisons are very specific places. And we know an awful lot about women in prison. And we know an awful, well, we're beginning to know quite a bit about male people who identify as women. We're beginning to understand a little bit more about their, if you like, I hate using this word because it's a little bit Netflix, about their profile, if you like. We're beginning to understand the sort of backgrounds and index offenses that they have. So in many senses, that whole question about being

afraid of trans people, that has nothing to do with it whatsoever. I'm coming from an organizational and policy point of view. And I would never say that in all places, at all times, we ought to organize by sex. I just say in some places at some times it's more important that we understand sex and organized by that rather than gender identity let's have the chat in the future then about that when it's uh it's back on the agenda i'm sure with an election certainly in england talking about how prisons will be organized not least scotland as well and we can talk further. But just a final thought from you before I give a couple of statements today, which I

know you're still gathering your thoughts on. Do you still have an appetite to debate? Do you still want to be who you are as a career? Because, my gosh, you've been doing it in a whole other way over the last few years. And it's nice to hear you laugh and smile, but go for it because i always think when people have been through something they might re-emerge differently yeah um that's what yeah like this ask me tomorrow i might give you a different answer yes of course i do you know most of my job has been about trying to understand all the complexities and the nuances and have discussions about them. And I want to

see the hunger in younger people's eyes, the students that I teach and the colleagues that I have, you know, and I want to take part in that. And I love it when people disagree with me. So do I. I don't know if that's going out of fashion, but you sound like you've not gone off that bit of it. I thought I'd at least ask you that because I think that's, you know, you've been through a process and people go through these processes and they can change. Big smile on your face this morning, as I'm sure there was yesterday. And you were tweeting about celebrating last night. So it's good that you're up early enough to have the conversation.

I saw some champagne posted. Professor Jo Phoenix, thank you for your time and explaining how you see things this morning. We've got some statements. Stonewall have declined to give a statement there. There was a conversation starting about what influence has happened on institutions, as we heard from the professor there. She felt that the influence of that particular organisation had had an impact where she had worked. Professor Tim Blackman, Vice-Chancellor of the Open University, says, we acknowledge that we can learn from this judgment on considering the fact that we are considering the findings very carefully. We are deeply concerned about the well-being of everyone involved in the case and acknowledge the significant impact it has had on Professor Phoenix, the witnesses and many other colleagues.

Our priority has been to protect freedom of speech while respecting legal rights and protections. We're disappointed by the judgment and will need time to consider it in detail, including our right to appeal. And just messages, I read one there who was concerned about the Professor, Professor Joe Phoenix's views, but there's one here just saying, this is happening across the university sector. All universities need to read this judgment and protect academic free speech, including gender critical beliefs. I left an academic career after 25 years after the case of Raquel Rosario Sanchez at Bristol University. You can look that up. I gave evidence in her case against the university. This judgment is crucial. Well done for your courage, Jo, says Dr. Emma Williamson. And so it carries on. Thank you for those messages.

I'll come back to them if I can. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. But today, something else marks a big day for the woman running to be the first female president of the United States. We've heard that before.

Nikki Haley, now the sole candidate taking on Donald Trump after Ron DeSantis dropped out of the race, has the biggest chance and her biggest chance to disrupt the former president's campaign to get himself back into the White House because the state of New Hampshire holds its primary later today. And it's being seen as make or break for Haley, who trails far behind Trump in the polls. Let's talk to The New York Times writer Amanda Taub. Good morning. Good morning. There's also, of course, we'll look at the Democrat side in a moment.

We've heard a bit about the plan with Kamala Harris. As some are saying, it's quite crassly named, perhaps a reproductive tour, in quotation marks, of America, talking about what's happened to the rights of women and abortion there. And that being a key play, if I can put it like that, for the Democrats. But to keep with the Republican race, has she got a shot? I think probably not. You know, Donald Trump has just a tremendous amount of support among Republican voters.

Nikki Haley is giving it her best shot. As you said, she's the sort of last alternative candidate who's really still in the race. But it's a very steep hill she's cliff pacing. And on that, taking a step back, it's come down to her to stop the rematch of these older men. Two men going again for it. I think their age is also relevant. Can you imagine, you know, Hillary Clinton was also of a senior age, but two older women doing this like this, some calling it a grudge match, the revenge match. What do you say to that, that not only can't you get, we can't seem to have one

woman in that race, but the idea of there being two older females seems very far from reality in the race for the White House? Yeah, I think we're pretty far from that i mean we also have not ever had a woman of any age reach the white house um the closest is of course kamala harris who's the current vice president um you know i think that i'm so sorry your line is used in a lot of ways with amanda i do apologize i didn't mean to interrupt you your line is dropping in now do carry ways with Amanda. I do apologize to mean to interrupt you. Your line is dropping in now. Do carry on if you can. We'll see if we can. We hope that improves. OK. Yeah, I think issues around kind of masculinity have been an aspect of this race, even for the male candidates.

And so it's not that surprising that, you know, that has been a particular impediment to the female candidates as well. Yes. And we talked a bit about the idea of what Kamala Harris, and I started to talk about it there, about what she may be doing for Joe Biden in this race. I mean, abortion is a much bigger issue in America than it is here. But do you think it will be key in this debate moving forward, whoever is a much bigger issue in America than it is here. But do you think it will be key in this debate moving forward, whoever is the candidate for the Republicans?

Absolutely. I mean, it's not going to be much of an issue at the primary, which is what we're in now, because there isn't much distance between the different Republican candidates on that issue. But it's going to be very significant in the general election. And I think that it's pretty clear that the Biden campaign expects to rely fairly heavily on Kamala Harris to make that case for them. And is it naive, the question around why Kamala Harris isn't the one running? I mean, it is the norm for a president to run for two terms. So that won't be unexpected in some ways. But for those who who look at Joe Biden and think there is somebody else waiting in the wings and it's Kamala.

Yeah, I mean, I think it's absolutely the case in America. Oh, I'm going to have to stop that there. I'm so sorry, Amanda. You know, I would like to hear very much what you're having to say, but it is dropping terribly in and out there. But it is down to one woman, Nikki Haley, to not make it the rematch of Trump versus Biden, as some calling the grudge match. So sorry we couldn't get more into that. But you get the gist of sort of where this is up to.

It is a long shot, as it seems at the moment, that Nikki Haley will be able to beat Trump in this very important primary. Of course, stay with Radio 4, stay with the BBC for the latest as that news starts to roll in much later on today. But the idea of how we got there is an interesting one. I'm sure some of you have views on it. Your views still coming in about what's happened to our debate, our ability to talk about what constitutes a woman without being labelled a transphobe. You've just been hearing the first interview with Professor Jo Phoenix after a several year situation for her

and a fight to be able to have the victory that she had yesterday over her former employee, employer, excuse me, Open University. There's a message here asking about your workplaces, if this is something happening there, because obviously the crucial thing that's been shown is that it will be and can be discriminatory to call somebody transphobic within that balance of rights and freedom of expression. A message here. Hi, Emma. I'm a feminist early career researcher trying to make my way in universities in recent years has been extremely scary because of fear of the harassment and victimisation targeted at feminist academics. Joe's victory makes me feel much safer to do my job today, says Rose. Still not quite safe enough to give my surname. Well, I should say you never actually have to give any of your names if you don't wish to. We always like to know who you are and where you're coming from if you feel like you can, or you can just give one name as you have there. But there's a message here. Good morning. As a retired teacher, I would like to say how much I support, how much support, excuse me, Stonewall, which

was also mentioned, the charity, Give My LGBTQ Plus Pupils. Jo raised this Professor Jo Phoenix as one of the influences she thought was an issue in her university. Through them, we were able to give extra support to our young trans pupils when horrible news headlines made them scared for their future, whether in sport or other spheres their fellow pupils were more accepting and supportive than many academics who speak out against their lived experience being trans is bodily and emotional not a belief if my 90 year old father could embrace my trans son i don't think it's up to a stranger to be hostile and criticize his his life. I mean, that's a more general comment there because, of course, Joe Phoenix replied that it wasn't about being hostile or

critical to an individual's life. It was about institutional issues. It's about policy. And let's talk about policy. Let's talk about politics. Because today, the 23rd of January 1924, marks 100 years since the Labour MP Margaret Bondfield became the first female cabinet minister. Have you heard of her? I asked you that question right at the beginning of the programme. That's the name you were looking for. If I was doing a quiz, you would have got it right.

Margaret Bondfield. I'll say it again because despite also being the first female chairman or chairwoman, whichever you prefer, of the Trade Union Congress and also the first female Privy Councillor. Margaret Bondfield is still a relatively unknown name to most of us. Now, Labour's Women's Network is calling for a new portrait of her to be commissioned and hung in Parliament. Joining me, the Labour MP for Wirral South, Alison McGovern, and Professor Pam Cox, social historian from the University of Essex,

who can tell us a bit more about Margaret's life. Alison, tell us what you know, why you connect to Margaret, why you want others to know more. Well, as you mentioned, lots of people don't know Margaret Bonfield. And she was somebody who went into politics later in life. As you were just saying, Emma, she had a whole career in the trade union movement before she went into politics. So she became a minister later in hers, when she was in Parliament, actually for a relatively short time, they were very, very challenging economically. And so I think that part of the

reason why people perhaps haven't heard of her is because she was older when she was elected. She was in Parliament for a short time. But I don't think that's a reason why she shouldn't be remembered and commemorated in Parliament. You'll know, and anyone who's visited Westminster will know, just how many pictures of men there are. And I think that we could at least remember the first woman who held ministerial office. What was her early life like, Pam? Her early life was an incredible journey, really, when you think she went from being a shop girl to being the cabinet minister and I think that's an amazing story she was born in

Somerset in the 1870s and she became an apprentice seamstress in Brighton and Hove when she was a teenager and and then worked in London stores after that. And so far, so ordinary. That was the norm for many, many teenage girls in 19th century London. But you don't go from being a, how do you go from being a shop girl to a cabinet minister? And for her, the route was through trade unions. And she wrote these incredible undercover investigative stories under the name of Grace Dare, where she exposed her working conditions in shops and stores. Yes, I love this idea of her writing at night by

dim light, candle light, whatever was going on there and trying to get these stories out. Amazingly and brilliantly, we can hear a clip of her talking from 1937 about her life as a shop girl. I lived in a system by which board and lodging was provided by the employer as a part of wages. The shop workers believed the employers found this a profitable sideline, and we hated it because of the crowded sleeping rooms, which denied all privacy, the poor food, the locking in or out at a fixed time,

and lights out half an hour afterwards. In some shops, lists of fines and deductions numbered over a hundred. Some of them were of an outrageous character, as for example, fine for losing a duster, sixpence, the duster costing somewhere around about one penny wholesale price. We suffered from capricious dismissals and from a general sense of helplessness under injustice. I was 19 years of age when I read a letter in a newspaper about trade unionism and it was a revelation to me, a sort of instantaneous conversion. Of course, I thought, individually we are powerless, like the single stick to be broken and thrown away.

But if we were bound together by loyalty to an ideal and to each other, we should be like the bundle of sticks that nobody can break. One for all and all for one, I found a most inspiring slogan long before I read The Three Musketeers. Yes, there you go. It's just incredible to hear her voice and also what she's saying, you know, capricious dismissals. There'll be some, I suppose, who want to talk about the gig economy when they hear things like that, Alison. We think about the suffragettes perhaps around that time as well, but she wasn't connected in that way, was she? No, she wasn't. She believed in universal suffrage.

And whilst the suffragettes achieved many great things, obviously, she represented a woman who was part of the trade union movement and wanted voting rights for everybody on an equal basis. So, you know, she was, I'm sure Pam will correct me if I'm wrong, but she was critical of what happened in 1918 because it wasn't enough. You know, she wanted... Women over the age of 30 getting the vote. Exactly. And men who were property owners and the different distinctions that were made.

Yes, she wanted universal suffrage for everybody and saw the women's struggle as part of a wider thing, as part of dealing with the position of women in society. As we just heard from Margaret herself, women shop workers being treated essentially like children. And she wanted to change all of that, not just votes. Pam, what do you want to say about that? I mean, she was campaigning against injustices of all kinds. So long hours, low pay, precarity, some of these things still very resonant today. And a lot of her work helped to bring in regulation to stem that sort of thing.

I wanted to say one thing is that she becomes first cabinet minister in 1929. And it's the centenary of the first Labour government in January 24. 24, sorry, she became a junior minister. Yes, she's a junior minister and then cabinet in 1929. And then there's not another female cabinet minister until 1945 and then you get a handful in the 1950s. And she's still one of a smattering, really, in the long history of Britain,

of women who've held seriously senior positions. And how did she do with that senior position? What's her record like politically? I think it's pretty impressive. I mean, she, as Minister of Labour, in a very challenging government, in Ramsay MacDonald's government in 2931, I mean, she was responsible for trying to create jobs

and provide support for those who couldn't find jobs in a period of Great Depression. So I think, you know, she was a trailblazer in that way. Obviously, it didn't end happily for that particular government, but she certainly earned her stripes as a female leader. Alison? Yeah, I looked at the National Archive website and read some of the notes that she wrote to cabinet. And you kind of can read her struggling with this impossible problem of the ballooning number of people who are on the unemployment register. And the cabinet was very divided. And, you know, I think she held her own against divided opinion in a cabinet that in the

end wasn't successful. But I think, you know, perhaps because of what happened with that government, maybe that's part of the reason why she's not remembered but I don't think that's a legitimate reason because we can all have our views about people's political records but she was somebody who used her both her life experience and what she'd learned and as we heard she had an incredible speaking voice she was somebody who used that to best effect. And I think it's really worth knowing about her. I mean, she was criticised, perhaps this is what you're alluding to, for supporting policy about this divide that cut unemployment benefit for married women, I believe. Her work for women in politics sometimes wasn't popular with women where they were in their lives.

Yeah, she made controversial decisions. And, you know, we look back on that time pre-war uh when the problem of unemployment you know was incredibly serious and um everybody everybody was wrestling and the country was very divided about how to deal with it after she'd had that experience in the cabinet she um undertook social investigations and she um she wrote a report called Our Towns, which is also very relevant today about the social conditions people were living in. She supported the formation of the NHS. So she was a part of what came after that very difficult time in the 30s and kind of rebuilding the social fabric of the country. I just think, you know, she was the first she deserves

for people to know about her and for us to talk about all of these issues and whether or not anyone agrees with an individual thing, I still think her place in history should be there More than one famous Margaret in 20th century politics Well I was going to say, if you think about retail as a background, you often think of a different Margaret

in politics. You do, yes and I was very struck when I've been working on Margaret Bonfield, the parallels between Margaret Thatcher's life and Margaret Bonfield's life growing up in shop trade and shop work, although from different angles. Margaret Thatcher went down the line of, you know, the customer was right, what the customer wanted, they got. Bonfield's looking at it more from the perspective

of the workers supporting the customer. And it's so interesting how they took very different paths from very similar origins. And of her life afterwards what do we know what happened? So she was somebody who was incredibly well-travelled and she was interested in international affairs. We obviously have Frances Perkins over in the States who was the first US woman in the cabinet and as I understand it they met and knew each other. And she was part of the discussions about the formation of the International Labour Organization. So she was somebody who was active on the world stage. She was very private person. And I think part of the

reason we don't know so much about her is that, you know, she didn't seek to sort of, she did write an autobiography, but she wasn't promoted in that way after her career. So she did lots of things that I think are really worth knowing about. But she was kind of a private and personal, private in her personal life. Well, there may be a portrait. May there be? Do we think there'll be? So I wrote and asked the Works of Art Committee in the House of Commons to look at it, which they are doing. We're having discussions about it. For a long time, the Art Committee has tried to address this issue of, you know, the missing women, if you like. So we don't know yet, but you'll come back and let us know.

We've made progress. OK, we'll take that. Remembering the life of Margaret Bonfield, who was the first cabinet minister, first the junior minister, talking about being 100 years on from that Labour government. Thank you for the clarification on that. Professor Pam Cox, Alison McGovern, Labour MP. Thank you to both of you. A message here. No, not one gender critical person, going back to our discussion from before, is afraid of trans people, Emma. This is in response to a message. We're afraid of men and their violence against women, which is borne out in every statistic available to that point it's not me who's saying that i just want to always clarify this sometimes i think there is a lack of understanding i'm reading out text messages

from our listeners as is yours or an email that's come in so thank you for that trans women and female spaces surely it's about safe spaces and behaviors fiona says someone who's always identified as female is perfectly capable of violence and sexual assault. Let's look at the behaviours we want and stop being obsessed with someone's genital and identity history, says Fiona. That's part of this debate. But the debate has slightly moved on. And this is what we've been capturing this morning around what is, you know, able and what is OK and what is not discriminatory, say to people in a place of work. And we are seeing institution after institution losing at the moment these tribunals against feminists, which is why hearing from Joe Phoenix earlier, Professor Joe Phoenix, was so interesting.

If you missed that, you can catch back up on the podcast. But let me tell you about something else completely different and who just walked in. My next guest is the Irish actress Sarah Green, best known probably, I mean, there are lots of roles, but for her eyepatch-wearing BB in the wonderfully dark Irish comedy Bad Sisters on Apple TV. But there's a new project, an eight-part series, Sexy Beast.

It's just launched on Paramount+. The series is set as a prequel to the cult British gangster movie of the same name from the year 2000. We'll all remember Sweaty Ray Winston at the beginning. The TV series unites the film's unforgettable characters, the lovable rogue Gal Dove and the dangerous Don Logan. And Sarah plays the lead female role, the adult film star, Dee Dee, the love of Gal's life. Sarah, good morning. Good morning.

It's a little bit different than some of your roles recently, where you've played quite a few mums and mothers, and not that they can't be very sexy, but this is a different type of role. Tell us. Very different, yeah. A departure for sure for me. Yeah, Dee Dee is a very, very body confident, sexually empowered woman. So that's something I haven't really played with before.

So quite a challenge. Was it? I mean, you could tell me I'm like that in my real life. No, I just had a baby. So I think like my body was completely different. So it was like, yeah, I had to fall in love with this new body and then be as confident as Didi is. And how was that for you?

I mean, was that good in some ways, the timing? Yeah, it was really freeing, like really freeing to not care, you know. And I think Didi definitely doesn't care what people think of her and so to play someone like that yeah I really enjoyed it, I felt very lucky to kind of step into her shoes How did you prepare to feel as sexy

as possible after pushing another human out of your body? I watched a lot of 90s porn. Right, not every woman who walks in here says that. Yeah. Has it aged well? Have you got any favourites? You know, the Italian porn industry

was quite beautiful. It was just kind of like bad films with some sex scenes thrown in. So not like the porn we see today. It was much tamer. And I think that's represented in our show in terms of our sets and stuff. It was, you know, it was, they were fun,

they're colourful, they all had a theme. So yeah, not the porn that we watch today. Yeah, and imagine it's also weird doing a prequel. You know, Amanda Redmond played the role before you see how it becomes or how it's become. Is that something you've ever had to deal with before? Because people have all these attachments to things when they've got a love for them.

Of course. But I think our show stands alone. It's not a remake in any sense of the imagination. It is an exploration of these characters. So I loved the film so much. And I loved their love story, like Gal and Didi's love story, and always wondered how they got together and the breakdown of Gal

and Don's relationship, like how did that come about? So we are taking these characters and reimagining them at a time in their life, maybe, you know, a decade beforehand and how they all looked, how they all interacted with each other, how they met, how they fell in love, which is really exciting to get to explore that because I think, you know, we don't, there's not much backstory in the film. You're just kind of catapulted into this moment in time in their lives in Spain. Do you read reviews?

Have you had a little peek? I haven't had a peek, no, I haven't. Actors are very different on this, I find. I kind of don't mind, yeah, I read them. Obviously, like, I prefer to read the good ones. It's funny, the bad ones always stay with you, but no, I haven't looked at anything yet. Okay, so you're...

Well, are they good or bad? Well, there's a range, I think, because of people... No, but, you know, there's also individual views of performances versus what they feel about the original. Of course. You know, you're going to have that. Which is why I thought it was interesting when you do a prequel and you take it on.

But one thing that wasn't a prequel, it was its own thing, Bad Sisters. Yes. It's nice to see both of your eyes this morning. Thank you. It's good to see. For you probably, walking around on set I imagine was quite a thing wearing a patch. I actually have really bad eyesight.

So it feels very, you're disconnected when you've got the eye patch on. I do. But there's a second series coming. Yeah, we're in the middle of shooting it. Yeah. How's that with all these women around you? Amazing. It's just wonderful being back together.

We really do behave like a family. And Sharon Horgan is a genius. You know, the writing is, I dare say, even better. It's so, so good. So we're almost, yeah, we've got another like two or three months to shoot. But yeah, it's brilliant. It's really good. I can't wait to watch it.

Well, that's always. It's really good. I can't wait to watch it. Well, that's always a good endorsement because I think, you know, it's still rare to see, not as much, but to see so many women on screen with those different types of characters, with the flaws as well. Yeah, they're really messy, complex women.

You know, they're not perfect and they're doing really bad things. Like murdering someone is not okay. But we were lucky that the audience hated the prick as much as oh i shouldn't have said that i'm sorry um as much as we did so yeah we had a lot of support behind us he's talking about the character that is bumped off which we know from the beginning yes so i'm not we don't know how from the beginning yes you know he's dead we know he's dead there's a lot of death in the first episode. Yes, then it's a whodunit.

So, yeah, I think audiences are really going to be delighted with how season two plays out. Now, Normal People, I did mention that as well, you playing a mum. Did you feel you were the right age to do that? I know she's a younger mum, but it's quite an interesting thing, isn't it, going between these different...

Yeah, I was the right age, though. In terms of the book and how Lorraine was written, I was the exact same age as her so I mean obviously the casting of Paul Meskell he had to go from being a teenager to a young man. That's the confusing bit Yeah so I mean it didn't bother me

I wasn't insulted at all it's a character that on the page I adored so to get the chance to play someone as lovely as her it was was, yeah. And also just to watch, you know, I was there the very first day we shot and we shot that first scene when Conall comes to collect Lorraine from Marianne's house. And I got to stand behind the camera and watch the two of them perform together for the first time. And it was magic. Like

we knew it was something really special. Have you now got a thing for men with thin silver chains? Do I? No. It seemed in love. He's played my son. I know, but you can still look at, he's not your son. I mean, I don't know how method you are. But it seemed for a brief moment during lockdown.

Well, my fiance has always worn a long silver chain. Okay. I mean, your fiance, I should say, is in a band that's quite well known called Snow Patrol. Yes. He does have a name, Nathan Connolly. So you didn't instruct him afterwards to go out and buy one? No, he's been wearing them for years.

He's the OG. How are you guys doing managing big careers with the whole family side of things? Have you got to grips with that? I mean, it's always a struggle, right? But we're really lucky. Nathan, obviously music was one of the last things to go back after COVID. So having Eli during COVID was amazing

because we were both off. I went back to work after six months and they both just travelled with me. So yeah, he was a stay-at-home dad, part-time rock star, stay-at-home dad. But he's now back in the studio. What a great job to have alongside. Yeah. Dad first and then rock star. It's really special. Their bond is unbelievably strong.

So now we have a really amazing nanny. I think they're listening. So hi, Tallulah. Hi, Eli. And yeah, she's been incredible. Because this month is chaos. I'm shooting Bad Sisters, doing press for this and doing another film as well. So yeah. and Nathan's

in the studio. Are you enjoying the journey? Yes, yeah. Because it sounds like a fast ride at the moment. It's a very fast ride, yeah but I know that I've got a couple of weeks off in February so it's you know swings and roundabouts. I did interview Jodie Comer the other day and I asked her if she liked being famous, liked being a celebrity

and our conversation took an unexpected turn which I adored. The whole thing of live conversations, which is what I'm in the business of, where she talks about it's annoying being papped without her bra on. And she's been to the shops. And I did admit I can't do that with my situation. Same there after having kids, yeah.

But yeah, I was like that before. But is there anything that you, are you now recognised? Do you find that tricky in any way? I notice it a little bit more. In fact, Nathan notices that people doing a double take or like, you know, I'd be on a train and you'll notice someone trying to take a picture.

But I'm kind of a little bit unaware of it. And no one really comes over or says anything to me. I bet if you put the eye patch on, they would. Yeah, there was one day at a restaurant and a girl came over and she was like, my hair fell in front of my eye. She was like, now I know who you are. I know you.

She couldn't figure it out. And I bet your partner's like, excuse me, I'm in stupor. Yeah, I'm kind of a big deal. Sarah Green, thank you. The new series Sexy Beast is showing on Paramount+. That's all for today's Woman's Hour.

Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Cobalt. A thriller from BBC Radio 4. Hey, Dad. The person you're trying to reach is not available. £603 to Rwand Air. That's the price of a one-way ticket to Zimbabwe.

Good afternoon, ma'am. We're looking for Mr Manfred Zibanda. Is there a problem? Not yet. They've been in a few times this week looking for the cobalt that went missing. Would you risk it for 20 million? What the hell is Dad doing in Zimbabwe right now? Cobalt.

On BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.