Woman's Hour - Professor Kathleen Stock; Royal Ballet principal Leanne Benjamin; Richard Ratcliffe

Episode Date: November 3, 2021

Kathleen Stock was until last week a professor of philosophy at the University of Sussex. In the last few years she has become better known for her gender critical views, contributing to the highly charged public debate over trans rights and what she and others see as the re-defining of the word ‘woman’. This year she published a book called Material Girls: Why Reality Matters for Feminism, in which she argues that we are in an era of Emperor’s New Clothes, that it isn’t possible for people to change their biological sex, and that someone’s sex should sometimes takes precedence over their gender identity. She is also clear that “Trans people deserve lives free from fear. They deserve laws and policies that properly protect them from discrimination and violence. But as she says…laws and policies based around gender identity are not the right route.” She gives an exclusive interview to Emma Barnett. Leanne Benjamin OBE was principal for 20 years with the Royal Ballet. As one of the most important ballet dancers of the past 50 years, she looks back on her career spanning from 18 to 49, in her new autobiography, ‘Built for Ballet’. Richard Ratcliffe, the husband of Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe who's still detained in Iran, is on hunger strike again in Whitehall, close to government buildings. Today is Day 10. He wants the government to do more to secure Nazanin's release. She's been held in Iran for five years on spying charges - which she denies - and recently lost her appeal against a second prison sentence. Richard joins Emma from outside the Foreign Office in Whitehall.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Kirsty StarkeyInterviewed Guest: Kathleen Stock Interviewed Guest: Leanne Benjamin Interviewed Guest: Richard Ratcliffe

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. A Woman's Hour exclusive for you today. Catherine Stock was until last week a Professor of Philosophy at the University of Sussex. In the last few years she has become better known for her genderical views, contributing to the highly charged public debate over trans rights, and what she and others see as the redefining of the word woman. This year, she published a book called Material Girls, Why Reality Matters for Feminism, in which she argues that we are in an

era of emperor's new clothes, that it isn't possible for people to change their biological sex, and that someone's sex should sometimes take precedence over their gender identity. She's also clear that, quote, Trans people deserve lives free from fear. They deserve laws and policies that properly protect them from discrimination and violence. But as she says, laws and policies based around gender identity are not the right route. Calls for Professor Stock to be removed from her teaching post at Sussex have been increasing by those who adamantly disagree with her, culminating in

regular protests and poster campaigns by students on campus over the last few weeks. The university made it clear it would not sack her and, quote, vigorously and unequivocally defended her right to exercise her academic freedom free from bullying and harassment. Nevertheless, last week, she made the decision to leave her job, to quit, to resign from a post she held for 18 years. This is Kathleen Stock's first interview since resigning. And if you'd like to get in touch about anything you hear,

you can text me here at Woman's Hour on 84844. Text will be charged your standard rate. Get in touch with me on social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour or email us through our website. I started by asking Professor Stock why she resigned from Sussex University. The recent student activity against me has been pretty intense, obviously, and that's what everyone's seen. But it's really the end point in three and a half years of sort of low level bullying and harassment and reputation trashing from colleagues. And I've just had enough of it.

Three and a half years? Yeah, because that coincides with when I started to write and speak publicly about concerns I had about gender identity policies. So that's when I got people's attention. A lot of people who, as you say, may have only recently tuned into what's going on with you and what's been going on at your university, what was, will have thought it's about students. But you've just said quite early on there, colleagues.

Yes, it's about both. And actually, I don't know that the student activity would be there if the colleague activity already hadn't been there. I think this is true of almost every university. So Sussex isn't special in this way, but there's a small group of people who are absolutely opposed to the sorts of things I say. And instead of getting involved in arguing with me, you know, using reason, evidence, the traditional university methods, they tell their students in lectures that I pose a harm to trans students or they go on to Twitter and say that I'm a bigot. So there's creating an atmosphere in which the students then become much more extreme and much more kind of empowered to do what they did, I think, to be honest.

Well, stoking the fire, you could say? I'm not saying that they intentionally set out to cause this end point but I do think that academics are treated by students as role models quite often and if you're in a class as a student and your lecturer is saying look there are some views that are just beyond the pale that should never be debated that automatically as soon as you them, then that makes you a bigot. And we need to stop these people from speaking, then I don't know, maybe I'm joining the dots wrongly, but it seems to me that there might be a connection there. And how do you know that your colleagues have done that? And are they in your own department? You just have to go onto Twitter and see. You can look at what they've said in the past. I mean, this is a small number of people. I'm not saying that this is the norm for Sussex University, which is full of great academics, mostly, but this is a small group of people who really are quite extreme.

And, you know, in departmental meetings, people radically misrepresent my views, saying things like, oh, she thinks all trans women are rapists or, you know, she's a bigot. She's harmful. She she doesn't like trans people. And all of this is totally false. But I am increasingly powerless to change the narrative myself. Well, let's come to what your actual views are shortly. But in a statement from the university, they talk of regretting your departure and they say of themselves that they have over the past several weeks vigorously and unequivocally defended your right to exercise academic freedom, lawful freedom of speech, free from bullying and harassment of any kind.

Has the university had your back? Because what you've just described with colleagues there does not sound like it. In recent weeks, the university has been much more proactive in supporting me than it has been in the past. What's changed? Well, what's changed is it's become a massive embarrassment to them in a way which means that they have to come out in my defence. I mean I think previously I was the embarrassment so I think the university in the past has, I'm not saying it in any way

tried to stop me saying what I was saying, but it didn't particularly go out of its way to support me when I would say, look, there are colleagues trashing my reputation on Twitter and causing problems for me because my students are likely to think that I'm harmful to them. You know, they didn't really respond very well. Day to day, sticking with your colleagues and the university just for a bit longer, has that been very difficult? I mean, of course, we've just been through a pandemic, but I'm imagining we share some of the same spaces as these people. As a working environment, some will be wondering, why couldn't you stay? Why couldn't you stick it out? Especially when

they saw that recently, for instance, 200 academics signed a letter in support of you? Well, I mean, South Seas University campus is a closed campus in the Downs. It's like a little sort of stage or theatre. You know, you're walking across it several times a day to get from class to class and you're passing hundreds and hundreds of people. So it all feels quite close, as it were and if you know you've got every 10th person who's giving you daggers as you cross the campus or you know that there are colleagues going around asking other colleagues to sign petitions against you it just becomes really exhausting so yeah I mean maybe other people could be braver and put up with it for longer. But when you add to that background the latest student activity, which involved quite really aggressive language and was obviously designed to intimidate me out of my workplace, I just decided I want to be happy. I want to leave.

I also want to come to what that recent student activity was. Ministers within the government have backed you as well the Minister for Equalities as she still is as well as the Foreign Secretary Liz Truss has spoken of you also Kemi Badenoch this weekend has spoken in support of you the head of the EHRC has supported you there has been a lot of support from the most powerful offices. I suppose, again, to say, has that offered any comfort? Oh, yeah. I mean, the people that I'm talking about, the critics of mine within the university

system are out of step with the general public. They're out of step with most politicians. I have had enormous comfort, both from powerful figures backing me, but also from ordinary members of the public and particularly women sending me hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of emails, cards, gifts, flowers, telling me, you know, keep going. Thank you for what you've done. So, yeah, that without a doubt, that is a lot of comfort and has kept me going. Yeah. Until this point. Well, it's still keeping me going in the sense that but I mean you're with your resignation your decision to stand down was there something was there a moment that you thought enough is enough yes it was when I saw my own union branches statement which basically backed the protesters and implicitly made it obvious

that I they thought I was transphobic and accused Sussex University of institutional transphobia which can only ever mean that they employed me because it's the most LGBT friendly place you can possibly think of so when my own you, you know, my former union, because I left them last year precisely for this sort of reason. The University and College Union. Yes, the University and College Union. When union committee members basically back intimidation against you as an employee, then, you know, that's a bit of a blow. To give some more detail from that statement from the University and College Union Sussex branch released on the 13th of October it says in the light of recent events on campus and ensuing public response on social media we extend our solidarity to all trans

and non-binary members of our community who now more than ever should receive the unequivocal support of the university and its management. As a union, we strongly condemn all forms of transphobia and call the University of Sussex leadership to heed its institution's values and commitments as set out in its trans equality statement and its dignity and respect policy. It goes on to say, we do not endorse the call for any worker to be summarily sacked and we oppose all forms of bullying, harassment and intimidation Why did that make you think, I've had it, especially if you'd left them? I don't know. I can't really say why that was my personal tipping point. But I mean, it's basically the mechanism is social ostracism. And I've been at Sussex for 18 years.

It's like, it was my first permanent job and it felt like home. And, you know, you're being ejected from the tribe, aren't you? That's the whole point. You're an escaped goat. You're being pushed out and it's being done very publicly. It's completely humiliating.

And you feel completely powerless to, as I say, to correct the misrepresentations that are constantly coming out about you. So, you know, I think most of the students that have protested against me really haven't got a clue what I actually think. And that's because the adults that are supposed to care about truth haven't told them. And many of them don't really understand what I think. And whenever I hear them talk about it, they misrepresent it. So, you know, you just get to a point where you think, what am I doing this for? And the thought of just walking around that campus for the next five years,

such a visible person by now, you know, people know who I am. I've been completely isolated from support because of all these public displays against me. Nobody really wants to stand beside me because they're worried it'll happen to them too. That's how social ostracism works. So you just feel incredibly alone. And in other universities, this is going on too. But I do know that in some universities, they at least have kind of networks of academics that will stand together. And I've never had that at Sussex. I've had plenty of people say to me via email, I'm so sorry. I would love to be able to, you know, stand with you and I agree with you.

But I'm coming up for promotion or I'm precarious or I'm a student. So I've just, you know, I'm a professor and it's my duty to say what I think. But I've just got to the point where I just thought it's just not worth my while to stay. What did you see when you were last on campus which I know then led to you having issues with regards to your security and your safety? Well the last thing I saw the very last thing I saw on campus was in the main entrance to the university through this tunnel every poster on the wall had my name on it. Kathleen Stock. Kathleen Stock is a transphobe via Kathleen Stock.

We don't pay £9,000 for Kathleen Stock's transphobia, etc. You know, I was just going into work as normal. The day before, I had been into the loo and seen stickers over the back of the doors in my building talking about the transphobic shit that comes out of Kathleen Stock's mouth but I had obviously at that point I found that very upsetting but I had no idea it was about to escalate so the very last thing I saw physically on campus were those posters then I just turned around ran back up to the train station hyperventilating and got the first train I could home and then then I looked online somebody sent me a link and I saw that they'd put a manifesto up

calling me a spiteful bootlicker and I espouse a bastardized version of radical feminism apparently which is news to me etc and saying basically get angry stay angry till you're angry enough to do something about it and until she's gone you'll be seeing us around or something like that well you just alluded a little to it there but what has the effect been on you personally of that experience well it's hard. I mean, this has happened in the last two and a half weeks. Like, literally, I was giving a lecture the day before on radical feminism, as it happens, my last ever lecture at Sussex.

And I was critical of radical feminism, although I have a lot of respect for radical feminists, let me say. But, yeah, the effect is just head spinning but you know obviously horrible and like some sort of surreal terrible anxiety dream to see your name like plastered over every wall and then you know there was a massive protest at an open day with I think about a hundred students holding placards saying stock out quit stock fire her setting off flares writing graffiti you know it's I don't know if I can explain it but I mean you just have to imagine yourself at your workplace

where you work you know and it's a big sort of theatre like I say there's lots and lots of people there lots and lots of young people and all eyes are on you and and all fingers seem to be pointing at you it's like some sort of medieval experience. You said about hyperventilating I mean have you been scared? Well at that point I wasn't scared so much as just incredibly distressed um but I have to go back onto campus to get all my stuff so you know I can't say how I'm going to feel that day um I imagine it's going to be a mixture of emotions incredible sadness as well but yeah anxiety no doubt I mean my life has changed completely I felt anxious walking to get the

train this morning you know yeah but also I can see you know that it is very upsetting for you you've worked there nearly 20 years yeah it's obviously like a huge part of my life and I've had some you know in the main amazing students amazing colleagues I've taught trans students throughout as far as I know happily and yesterday I got an email actually from a former student who is a trans man thanking me for all the support I gave him while he was at Sussex so the narrative about me is just so far away from what I think I am but my experience has been mostly positive and I will really miss teaching there. I will. Why do you think they are the ones that are doing this and the ones that are speaking out?

Why do you think these students are so angry in your view? Well, it's more than about me. I mean, there's a wider societal context, isn't there? There's a narrative that's emerged partly through some academics and also through lobbying groups like Stonewall that trans students and trans people generally are the most vulnerable group in the UK and that moreover the only way to protect them is to affirm any claim they make about their own identity and that any dissent from that must be transphobia,

must be transphobic, shouldn't be debated, hashtag no debate. That comes from Stonewall. So Stonewall is embedded into my university, my former university. If you look at their website, they've said that they want to be a workplace equality index top 100 employer by 2025 they've made that part of their strategy and they do all the things that stone will ask them to do in order to get there now students who are idealistic and passionate and probably going through quite a hard time many of them will will accept this why wouldn't they you know their elders have accepted it too, apparently. So I think that that's part of the context.

Therefore, my pretty moderate book and my pretty moderate views, which always insist on affirming legal protections for trans people and that they should absolutely be free of any kind of discrimination or violence, you know, those views are just presented as totally heretical, unacceptable, and therefore I must be evil.

It's literally that kind of extreme. Because you say you think you've written that you cannot alter your biological sex, meaning you don't view trans women as women or trans men as men. That's correct. Strictly speaking, those categories, as far as I'm concerned, and I have presented the arguments in my book, those categories are set up in ways that are not altered by inner feelings of identity. And those categories are there for really good reasons in order to enable humans to pick out really important facts about the human species,

which is sexually dimorphic. There's males and there's females. There's older males, men. There's younger males, boys. There's older females, women. There's younger females, girls. We need those words and those concepts in order to be able to talk about all the different medical interests or sporting interests or educational interests or, you know, know you name it we need those words so that's what I think but that's completely compatible with protecting trans people in law it's also compatible with going along with what I would call a kind of fiction that a trans woman is a woman or a trans man is a man for certain social purposes. That word that you use fiction which which is a part of your book and one of the bits that you talk about in more detail, what you think's happened and how you think this has

developed, to the trans and non-binary students who say that even going there makes them feel unsafe, either on campus or in life, what do you say to them? Well, I know that it makes them feel unsafe. They've been encouraged to feel like that, as I say, but whether you feel unsafe and whether you are unsafe are two different things. As philosophers, we constantly distinguish between appearances and reality. And my book is not actually making them physically unsafe. It might be challenging them psychologically, there's no doubt. It is part of life, I'm sorry to say, to be challenged psychologically in many ways. But I am not actually making them unsafe.

My words are not. And I wouldn't, you know, if anyone ever presented to me a credible argument or chain of reasoning that could explain to me how I was literally putting people at risk by saying what I just said, then I would care about it. But it's just not the case. And I don't know, it's just hyperbole. So I just hope that in a few years time, these students realize that the world is not as hostile to them as they think it is and that I was not as hostile to them as they thought I was. Why and what qualifies you to make those arguments? Why is it something that you decided to lean into?

Well, I'm a philosopher, so academic philosophy, the way I was initiated into that tribe, tells you that you can really think about anything. Like we're quite, I don't know, I wouldn't say arrogant exactly, but we do. There are philosophers that range from ethics to metaphysics to politics. I mean, Aristotle being one of them. So it's pretty standard for philosophers to question things and to come up with ideas about them. And I always nobody ever had any trouble with me ranging around from fiction to sexual objectification to the meaning of art before. I mean, these are some of the things I've written about before. But, you know, I'm particularly interested in this. I'm a lesbian, and I am a feminist, and I could see that this was a philosophical theory about categories and about identity. And it was a bad one, as far as I was concerned, sort of the idea that gender

identity is more important than sex. So I thought it was absolutely my duty as a philosopher to start talking about it. I mean, initially I did so when the government had opened a public consultation about gender recognition reform. So we were being invited to give our views. And I did notice that lots of academics were sort of enthusiastically supporting self-ID. No one I knew working in British universities was saying, hang on, there's some big problems with moving to self-ID and getting rid of single sex exceptions and the Equality Act and all that sort of stuff. And for people who aren't as well versed as you, you're talking there about, for instance,

also women's only spaces such as refuges, prisons, hospital wards, sex-based rights for those single sex environments. Yeah, so in 2018, when the government was consulting on this, and pretty much seemed like this was a Tory government, wanted to go ahead, one of the things that Stonewall was pushing very hard for was the dropping of the single-sex exemptions in the Equality Act, which say that there can be legitimately female-only spaces for certain legitimate purposes and female-only sports as well.

So it felt like an emergency, like this was being really rolled through with a lot of finance backing and kind of institutional establishment backing. And there was grassroots organisations popping up, like A Woman's Place UK and Fair Play for Women, saying, hang on, hang on, this is a radical reconception of what a woman is and it you know in terms of law and policy it will have massive impact and we're not supposed to be even talking about it so i just wanted to join in so that's why you yeah went towards this i think it's worth reminding people kind of when and how some of these debates began and how it came into your life, certainly as we hear what the ramifications has been, which ultimately has led to you leaving your job.

Do you regret that? Do you regret dipping your toe in this water? No, God, no. I mean, it's like the defining moment of my life. I think so far it's given me incredible sense of meaning. And also I haven't, you know, I haven't lost my own voice as so many women have. And I know they have because they write to me and tell me that they feel like they're suffocating. They, you know, they work in workplaces and not just in universities, but all over the place where they cannot say what they

think, where their employers, you know know HR departments have signed up to various lobbying group schemes like Stonewalls and as a result it's just absolutely forbidden to say what they think so I haven't lost my voice I'm not going to lose my voice. But you also said you couldn't cope with staying where you worked. Yeah but I can still talk. No I know I'm just I'm trying to understand how both have affected you and whether you think it's been worth it yeah I mean I think these things are compatible right I mean this isn't the end of my career I hope I don't know what I'm going to do next but I intend to make something good out of it but what I do know is

I'm not going to stop talking about the things that I want to talk about and that's why you're here and that's why I'm here so you mentioned that you're a lesbian. I wonder how much you think, if any, or what role you think your sexuality has played with some of the targeting of you? I'm not sure. I'm really not sure how, whether my sexual orientation is that well known. It's hard for me to tell. But it is definitely true that lesbians are at the sharp end, as it were, of gender identity ideology in that. So I became aware of it pretty early on, I think, because I was dating and going on to lesbian dating websites and seeing males. And I thought that was quite strange because I'm a lesbian. And I thought, you know, surely a lesbian should be able to go onto a dating website, put in woman looking for a woman. Are you talking about trans women there or are you talking about?

I don't know whether they were trans or not, but some of them had women's names. So some of them look like they might be trans. Some of them didn't look trans at all. I just don't know. But I just, it is the case that, in fact, again, Stonewall say this on their website that trans women who are's real pressure on lesbians to accept that trans women can be lesbians and that has you know made us lesbians aware of this in a way I think that straight people aren't necessarily as aware because there isn't the same pressure on straight women or straight men so so you've got a different perspective within your personal life I think well that was one thing and then I know I know you know I've got a different perspective within your personal life? I think, well, that was one thing. And then I know, I know, you know, I've got friends who have been really pressured into dating trans women and they say, well, I'm sorry, I'm lesbian, I'm same sex attracted. And sometimes that's been quite a hard, a hard point to kind of get through. So I do know of that phenomenon in my own life. You joined the LGB Alliance as a trustee earlier this year, which is a relatively new organisation set up, quote,

to advance the interests of lesbians, gay men and bisexuals and stand up for the right to live as same-sex attracted people without discrimination. It's an organisation whose charitable status was opposed by many LGBT groups because it doesn't represent trans people. Sticking with you and again, how this fits with what's been happening to you. Why did you make that choice to join as a trustee? They asked me and it was newly incorporated as a charity by the Charity Commission. You know, we're concerned about the loss of LGB focus and culture, because since

organisations like Stonewall became LGBT, they've really focused mostly on the T. And so there's nothing wrong, as far as I can see, with saying, look, we have distinct interests, we want to organise separately, it's absolutely doesn't mean that we don't think that trans people should have rights and we may even collaborate with we do in fact collaborate with sympathetic trans people on certain issues but LGB people have

a perfect right to have an organisation that speaks for them alone at the moment there's a campaign to reverse the Charity Commission's decision to give the LGB Alliance charity status. In fact, that's been supported by Labour's new shadow equalities minister. I think so. And I think in the very same letter, she may have mentioned me as well. She did.

In less than flattering terms. But, you know, has she read my book? Has she actually been and talked to the founders, Kate Harrison, Bev Jackson and a few others? I think she should because she'd find out that these are very reasonable people with reasonable aims. Now she can disagree with them, but there's just no need to buy into the kind of toxic hyperbole swirling around. So to come back to what's happened with you, there are other cases and situations on other campuses at the moment with other academics do you think you stepping down from Sussex and it becoming as big as it has do you think it's a bit of a watershed moment do you hope it is?

Well I don't know actually I mean of course it's a watershed in the sense that I think it's really drawn attention to a problem that has been there for a while. But, you know, no individual, me or them, should be expected to shoulder this burden of, you know, regular attack, ostracism, malignment and all the rest of it. The institutions need to get behind them as employees and as academics to support them through these controversial areas but how i mean because you know i looked at an account on instagram claiming to represent trans and non-binary students at sussex celebrating you know saying massive win for sussex lgbtq plus students and other things uh other celebratory photos and messages some of which you may have seen. I don't know, you may have been logged off the last few days.

No, I saw the ding-dong, the witch is dead one. I saw that as well. And I just wondered, because you want debate, because you want people to be able to protest, where that line is and what are you calling on vice chancellors at universities and management to do? Well, it's a tricky area to negotiate this like it's complex um because it's speech you know they're using speech to intimidate me off my workplace and

i'm using speech to say things that they don't like um so i'm i do believe in old relatively old-fashioned things like argument in the sense of using reasons to produce conclusion and appealing to evidence. Now, obviously, that is compatible with having false views, but at least you tried to get there using the right methods. I think what vice chancellors can do at a minimum is start talking about academic freedom more. It's not a phrase that I can recall hearing in my own career or using. So I have to say, you know, for many years, I didn't use it either. So I think a lot of academics are kind of sailing along and they've lost sight a bit of why academics freedom is important. But vice chancellors should be telling students from the minute they get to their

new institution, you know, universities aren't like other places. There's debate here and you may hear things you don't like that offend you. But ultimately, the challenge to you is to come up with arguments against these views, you know, make up your own mind. Don't be told what to think by others. Come up with a reasonable point of view that you can defend and you will come out at the other end of your degree more resilient, more able to think on your feet, to deal with critics, you know, you could only enrich your life to do that.

And you should also say you, as you did say about continuing to teach during this, you also presumably had students who used to debate with you. Oh yeah. Used to come in yeah because that's the point yes I mean regardless of subject all my students know and I don't just teach feminist philosophy I teach ethics and aesthetics and they all know or should know that the beginning of every module I say you are here to develop your own point of view I don't want you to agree with me I'm going to I prefer it if you don't agree with me. And if we're teaching

a week of stuff where I've actually written something on that topic, I will then also put on the reading list people that disagree with me. And I encourage people to take whatever position seems right to them. And I would never mark anyone down for disagreeing with me. And that is clear. I mean, that's standard philosophy or should be. So are you going to run for parliament? What's next? No, not that I know of. But I mean, you are obviously very interested in policy creation.

Yeah, I am. That's what got you into this. You're obviously across lots of other areas too, not just this area. But what have you thought about doing next? Well, my wife's having a baby, I'm going to concentrate on them for a bit. But I think in the long run, I just want to do something meaningful to me. I don't know if that's going to be in academia or not. I certainly want to write another book. On this subject?

Not exactly this subject, because I really think I've said everything I could possibly say but on feminism on my own idiosyncratic take on many feminist kind of shibboleths which again will probably annoy quite a lot of feminists you know I am a bit of a contrarian so whatever I come up with will end up annoying somebody no doubt so I want to do that and then who knows what else. Professor Kathleen Stock, Sussex Police have confirmed that last month they received a report of harassment of an employee at the University of Sussex and have been investigating, kept in touch with the person involved and have discussed her security with her. We approached

the University of Sussex, the Sussex branch of the University and College Union, and Stonewall for statements in response to that interview. Let me start with the University of Sussex. A spokesperson said, pandemic freedom is paramount. We believe wholeheartedly that a vital part of a healthy university community is the ability to discuss, debate and respectfully disagree with a wide range of views and beliefs. And we take our responsibilities in promoting and defending freedom of speech extremely seriously, alongside our broader obligations to staff and students. We also will not tolerate the bullying, harassment of anyone in our community. And we have been very clear that what Professor Stock experienced by some in our community was unacceptable. The university has received numerous inquiries since 2018 questioning Professor Stock's views and at every juncture we have fully backed her position at the university

and her right to freedom of speech and expression. We have in the past and continue today to thoroughly investigate every complaint regarding this matter and we will take action where members of our community do not uphold the behaviours clearly outlined in our dignity and respect policy. In addition, since June 2021, the law has been clarified so that holding gender critical beliefs are protected in law under the Equality Act and the university has taken additional steps to reflect this in policies and procedures and inform all staff and students about this change. We also have this statement from the Sussex branch of the University and College Union. Neither UCU Sussex branch or UCU nationally have endorsed calls for Professor Stock to be dismissed or accused her of transphobia. The publicly available UCU Sussex statement in support of trans and non-binary staff

and students reject any calls for individuals to be summarily dismissed and unequivocally supports academic freedom. And a Stonewall spokesperson said, Stonewall is proud to fight for a world where lesbian, gay, bi, trans and queer are free to be themselves, wherever they are. Our industry-leading Diversity Champions programme continues to grow. We work with more than 900 organisations to help create working environments in which LGBTQ plus people can thrive. We believe LGBTQ plus inclusion makes workplaces safer for everyone. Stonewall is not currently campaigning for any changes to the Equality Act 2010 or the accompanying statutory codes of practice. Now, you have been getting in touch in response to that interview with Professor Kathleen Stock.

A message from Kat. Her treatment has been scandalous. It is where the patriarchy is blind to women's rights, where misogyny has become a tool in trans activism. I support trans rights rights but not when it comes to abusing women for speaking their truth joss has got in touch to say a cis woman who refuses point blank to listen to trans people contradicts them undermines them and places her own quote thought exercises above the lived reality and experiences of trans people trans

people best place to identify transphobia? With a question mark there. Another one here, I was born female. It is in every cell of my body. No one can change it. It is not possible. I could have my outer body changed. I could change the clothes I wear. I could change my name.

No one can change every cell in my body. Alexa's got in touch to say, I'm lucky enough to be born with the gender I identify with. I'm also a feminist. For those who are not born into their identified gender and who take on the journey of transitioning to their true selves, then they are the gender that they identify with. They are a woman or a man and should be treated as such in all areas of life. Their life journey is potentially more challenging

than many of us can ever begin to understand. Just let them live as we expect to live, without prejudice or boundaries. Leslie's got in touch on a more general point to say, the action of these activists actually does nothing for their cause. In fact, in my view, it just puts people's backs up and makes the many of us positively, quote, anti-trans, whereas previously we held a live and let live attitude. And so it continues.

Many more messages coming in. Should you wish to contribute, 84844 is the number you need to text on. On social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour or email me through the Women's Hour website. Now to one of the most influential ballet dancers of the past 50 years. Leanne Benjamin was a principal for 20 years

with the Royal Ballet. She's now focusing on coaching the next generation of performers and has just released her autobiography Built for Ballet, which she co-wrote with the arts journalist Sarah Crompton, and where she looks back on a ballet career that spans from the age of 18 to 49. Good morning, Leanne Benjamin. Good morning, Emma. Thank you so much for having me on Woman's Hour. Well, thank you for coming. And I have to say, I've got to start with something which we found a bit surprising. I certainly did. Of course, you've danced all the major classics as a ballerina, Romeo and Juliet, Giselle, Cinderella, but you don't love a tutu. I certainly didn't love a tutu.

And everyone used to laugh at me because I couldn't wait to ditch the tutu ballets. Why was that? I think it was because I associated tutus with fairy tales. And it wasn't the kind of ballerina that I wanted to be or I felt my most comfortable in. I wanted to delve into the more dramatic, complex roles and find a strong female character within it. And you felt in some way that what made it too soft or made it made a frippery of it? I mean, I found in for first of all, it's a corset when you're wearing a tutu. And it can be very uncomfortable because you want it beautifully fit. Now, I think it's very, very important as a ballerina to dance those roles. But I danced them for so many years,

from the beginning of my career, right up to the time I became pregnant with my son. So I was never happier once I hung the tutu up and concentrated on things that I really, really wanted to work on for the last 10 years of my career. I want to come back to strength and the role of the dancer and how that's changed. And that's sort of why I started there, because also with this career that has spanned 18 to 49,

I thought you must have seen a lot of changes, and whether gradual, incremental, large or not, you tell me. But I thought I'd also ask how rare it is for a ballerina to be dancing at 49. It's extremely rare, Emma. I have to say I was, I suppose, very fortunate that I had the right body to be a ballerina. I was always slight. I never really had to diet, which was also helpful.

I love the physical side of the profession. And I think the reason I lasted so long was because I stayed interested. I like to be relevant. And in the latter part of my career, there were some new, exciting choreographers that came along. And that really helped me, I suppose, to keep my interest and to stay physical. And also, I never lost the interest of wanting to go into work and work. You say slight. I mean, you also have to be extremely strong.

Yeah, very strong. Which, again, perhaps flies in the face of the tutu, but we won't keep dwelling on that. You write in the book, ballet can be a trap for women in that they keep going with the work because they think it's their only opportunity to shine. And then they miss out on life's other gifts, such as parenthood, as a consequence. You mentioned your son. You did actually fall pregnant, I believe, when you were 37. Yeah, 37, 38. I had Thomas just before my 39th birthday, which was quite late.

But look, it's a very short career. Well, mine wasn't as short as many others. But you do want to keep going for as long as you can. There's always another carrot dangling in front of you. There's always another role. There's always something more that you want to do to eke out the career, to make it as interesting as you can. And I do think that you have to make decisions sometimes of when to stop and do something else that you want to do. There's a lot of people that don't want to have children, and that's great. But I knew I wanted to. And how was your body and you when you came back? I remember reading what Jessica Ennis,

the Olympian, said about trying to get back to full fitness post having a baby. Look, it's always very difficult to reach peak physical power at any time. It's very difficult when you're coming back from a major injury. It was also quite difficult coming back from pregnancy. The only difference in it, Emma, was that I was so happy in my time off during my pregnancy, which is everything against what happens when you have time off with an injury. So it's just, you know, after coming back from having Thomas, I had no idea whether I would be able to get back. I had no idea what sort of physical change it would have on my body. But I was delighted to know that my body loved the time off. And I also managed with a program that I set up for myself to come back relatively quickly.

And a few months after getting back into the studio I was already creating a new role so it gave me some inspiration to keep going. Always good if you can to create your own opportunities right you're a woman after my own heart I'm also a big fan of difficult women and that's no secret why else would you present a program called Woman's Hour but a recurring theme in the book is about speaking up at a time when ballerinas were expected to be, quote, be seen and not heard. You had a close working relationship with Peter Wright, the choreographer and artistic director of Sadler's Wells Royal Ballet, now called the Birmingham Royal Ballet. And he describes you in his book as, quote, the most difficult ballerina when it came to rehearsals, demanding time in the studio, on stage and upsetting everybody. But that didn't

seem like it worked against you. Your determination seemed to make you stand out. I wonder what you made of that. Look, I was really surprised that he wrote that in my book because I've always considered myself someone who just wants to do the best. I need to learn. I need to speak up and ask questions. But in my early days, that was in the 80ss I was working with Sadler's Wells Royal Ballet it was definitely a time where dancers were meant to be seen and not heard and it really went against my nature I got myself into trouble endlessly throughout my career because of it but I also think that it stood me in it stood me in good stead because I was able to say what I felt. I've never been afraid of that and for standing up for others.

And using your voice. I suppose the other thing is because you don't speak when you're on stage. There is that element of to be seen, to be beautiful, to be admired, but not necessarily heard. Yes, and I think in the early days, you know, when I grew up, wondering, you know, people were often telling me that I had a great talent and that I should be a ballerina and I was thinking, well, how could I be a ballerina? I'm a girl that likes to jump around in the garden on a pogo stick and be outspoken. That sounds like quite good training, perhaps.

Yeah, exactly. Well, I had a great athletic training just being in Australia in central Queensland. But really, I think in the early days, ballerinas were really icons that you looked at silently on a wall. You looked at these beautiful images of women. And I didn't think I fit that bill at all.

And I still don't feel I fit that bill. But what is happening today is marvellous. The dancers have so much more agency. Because also there's been write-ups of the Me Too movement in the ballet industry, the ballet world. I'm also aware of a story that our listeners may be aware of. Last month, the former English National Ballet principal dancer Yat-sen Chang was jailed for nine years for 12 counts of sexual assault, one count of assault by penetration. It was said during sentencing by the judge

he'd used his fame and prestige in the ballet world to abuse young women. I'm not necessarily expecting you to comment on that particular case, but I bring it up because it may be in people's minds about the world that you inhabit. Yes, I think I'm very happy to say that I think the workplace has never been safer. I think in the early days, there were situations that I had to get myself out of. And because we didn't speak up as much in those days, you know, you just had to navigate the situation yourself.

Did you ever have anything like that? I've had a few situations and I've written about it in my book you can read between the lines without it being kiss and tell but it did show I have shown examples in my book of how to have to navigate yourself out of how I had to navigate myself out of very difficult situations. But I think I was very lucky because I became a principal quite early. So I was able to have a little bit more agency through my career. And of course, I saw that there were other dancers in difficult situations,

but it's always been a very safe place for me. And I think there are so many wonderful directors out there today really looking after the dancers. It's very, very healthy. And perhaps the dancers finding that, as we've seen, especially with women. No, and now they do. They're so outspoken, these dancers today.

Well, I'm sure you would welcome that and do welcome that, especially when training the next generation. As a ballerina, by training, by work, do you like a kitchen disco? Was that your situation during lockdown? Do you dance around the house or do you find dancing a chore? A bit like people ask me, what podcast are you listening to? I think I want to listen to a podcast. I know. I mean, I think what we've all realised is how important dance is. Let's face it. We need to move. I'm lucky I've got a dog, so I was often out in the park. You're dancing with the dog as well?

When I can, I'll dance with anybody if I can, if anyone will watch me perform. Are you a good dancer away from the ballet discipline? No, I'm not. You're not? Look, my husband would say I am because I do, if they put a piece of music on, you know, I'll dance around the kitchen she's moving her shoulders in the studio it's so so natural for me to be dancing but listen writing this book through through lockdown meant that I had a lot of sitting on my bum which really wasn't good for me I I realized how difficult it is for people that have to sit in an office all day yes

well welcome to to most of our worlds uh Le Benjamin, the book's called Built for Ballet. Thank you very much. Thank you so much, Emma. I can't believe you said you aren't a good dancer. That's very funny indeed. Now, listen, if you missed yesterday's programme, I'm aware COP26, the climate conference, is continuing today in Glasgow.

The Chancellor today in the spotlight talking about how to, quote, rewire finance in light of the climate crisis. A lot of you have been in touch about our special panel, COP26 panel from yesterday's programme. If you missed it, catch back up on BBC Sounds and I hope you'll take something from it. I just wanted to flag that.

But to my next guest, and talking of politicians and trying to get their attention, who is presently on day 11 of a hunger strike sitting outside the Foreign Office in Westminster, Richard Ratcliffe, the husband of Nazanin Zaghari Ratcliffe, who's still detained in Iran. He's on hunger strike for the second time. He wants the government to do more to secure Nazanin's release. He's been held, she's been held, excuse me, in Iran for five and a half years on spying charges, which she denies, and recently lost her appeal against a second prison sentence. It could mean she'll have to

return to jail. Richard Ratcliffe, good morning. Morning, Emma. How are you? Let me start with that. Yeah, cold, in truth. It was a very cold night last night. I've certainly got a lot of respect for the guys I see sleeping on benches. It was exceedingly cold. Warmed up now. And yeah, it's day 11 of the hunger strike, as you say.

So probably I'm a bit slower mentally and physically but the main manifestation of that is feeling the cold more but yeah, we're still going strong And you're there the whole time? Yes, yeah, I've got a tent and then there's another tent where one of my friends would stay over just to keep a rotor and keep a watch probably as the days go on, I get a bit weaker,

so it's useful to have the company. How far are you going with this, Richard? Well, I mean, it's all a bit one day at a time. I mean, the idea of the hunger strike is essentially to provoke a response from the government. We did it because I had a conversation with the Foreign Secretary and said, listen, what are you going to do? Nazan's about to be put back in prison.

What are you going to respond? And she said, well, we will respond if she's back in prison, but not until. So it almost depends a bit on how the government responds. I had a meeting last week with her, which didn't lead to any change. Are you talking, sorry, about the new Foreign Secretary Liz Truss? About the new Foreign Secretary Liz Truss. So I had a meeting last week where, essentially sitting here saying, I don't think the strategy's working.

I think if you carry on the same path, Nazanin will be put back in prison. And she didn't give a clear answer of doing anything differently. So, I mean, I don't know. Obviously, physically, it gets harder. As you say, this is the second hunger strike I did, but the last one was in mid-June.

This one's a lot harder. And we should say, just to catch everyone up to the same point, Nazanin's still in her parents' and her family home. She hasn't yet been returned to prison. That's right. So formally, she served one sentence, came out, had the last part of it on an ankle tag. At the end of that, was given a new sentence

and then was waiting on an appeal. That appeal was finally lost about two weeks ago, which means now she's technically waiting for a phone call to say come to prison, but that phone call hasn't come. So at the moment she's at her mum's house, sitting fairly... I mean, anxious about this as much as about prison at this point because it's obviously day 11 and many wives will worry about their husband's harebrained schemes.

And I was going to say the government's position, as you see it or understand it, is wait till she's called back to prison and then they'll say something or do something again. Yeah, that's their explicit position. The red line for them is her being re-imprisoned. But she's not home, having served that sentence. I mean, that's what you're trying to point the attention to.

And you had understood or had hoped that she would be, of course, by now. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's obviously a failure of diplomacy that she got the second sentence in the first place. She should have come home a long time ago. And it's clear in our case, in all that's followed that Nazanin has been used as a sort of a pawn in this game of cat and mouse. And there are lots of threats of things that happen. Some of them do happen. Some of them are just threatened

about. It is absolutely clear that if the British government continues to wait, in the end Iran will carry through all its threats. She'll be in prison. Maybe others will be taken. So this sort of wait andsee approach that the government has been adopting just isn't going to work. And you've taken to the hunger strike, to the streets. I know that people are coming to talk to you and sit with you. Tell us a bit about that. Yeah, we've had some lovely people come by. I mean, we, some important politicians,

some, I mean, the Bishop of London came yesterday, the Mayor of London came the other day. Also, lots of lovely people from London and from beyond. Some had come from Bath and Bristol

and from Cumbria. Some who would have followed our story online and on the news for a while were in London because of half term or come down specially but just um yeah just coming to say their solidarity writing our visitors book and and just show that they care um i have to say that's been you know a really nice experience of human kindness yeah and there's also been celebrities i suppose you've also come to sit with you there's a photo

of claudia winkleman victoria corrin uh sitting on either side of you. Others trying to lend support, doing so on social media. What about your daughter, Gabriella, who's seven now? Has she come to sit with you or been with you? Or is she in school? How's that working? She has. I mean, obviously, Nazanin in particular was very worried about the impact on her. And probably the longer it goes on, the more we all need to be worried about that.

But, yeah, so she was a bit sort of discombobulated on the first day, then quite like playing with a tent. And then as the days went on, I mean, at the beginning, it was sort of lots of grown-ups talking, and it wasn't very interesting for her. But we did some pumpkin carving, and we decorated the camp, and she's been drawing various bits of bunting, and we've been making patches for a patchwork quilt, which we enrolled Claudia Winkleman and Victoria Cora Mitchell into as well.

So she had quite a nice time organising grown-ups into doing craft things and when her classmates came down they were playing football up and down in front of the foreign office. So, you know, children are pretty good at making a playground if there's space. So, yeah, I mean, she's back at school now. So, yeah, normal life is being maintained a bit for her still. How long do you think you can keep going on your hunger strike? I know you say day by day. It's a good question. Yeah, no, it's a good question.

I mean, next week there's an Iranian delegation coming to COP26. It's the vice president coming provisionally. So I'd like to still be going while they're here. I was promising the Foreign Office that, listen, if the prime minister had invited over the Iranian president, and we were still being held, I wasn't just going to let them wine and dine the Iranians like it was all OK, and I would wait on that parade.

So we'll try and keep going until then, but I do, obviously, it's easy to say that rather bullishly. You know, my sister's a doctor. She keeps a careful eye on how I am. And I'm definitely getting creakier. You can probably hear in my voice a bit slower of mind. So we'll see as the days go on as to how feasible it is. How's Nazanin?

OK. Really... You know, to go back a couple of weeks, I, really, really distraught and sad, I think, mostly about the new sentence and feeling like, gosh, this is all going to carry on for another couple of years. Now, probably a bit more immediately concerned about her husband camping on the streets in the cold and the impact that has on Gabriella. So, yeah, we're in touch a couple of times a day just to reassure her that it's all OK, met lots of lovely people. Yeah, but she worries. I mean, I think that's partly being a mum anyway,

you worry about your impact on the kids. But, yeah, you know, she's far away. She can't do much about this. She's in a position of tremendous uncertainty. The Iranian system is very good at making you anxious all the time. Well, that's why you're doing what you're doing. I don't want to take any more of your energy on day 11 of a hunger strike. Richard Ratcliffe, thank you very much for joining us and talking to the listeners of Woman's Hour. Thank you very much for your company

today. And we'll be back with you tomorrow. I'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. From the makers of the Battersea Poltergeist, a new podcast series for BBC Radio 4, Uncanny. Do you believe in ghosts? No.

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