Woman's Hour - Protests in Delhi, Retatrutide, The Farmer's Wife, Baby Loss

Episode Date: October 2, 2026

Multiple protests have been taking place in Delhi over the past week. Hundreds of women have come together in India's capital to protest against a series of sexual assaults - most recently the alleged gang-rape of a 17-year-old near Delhi university's campus. Anita speaks to the BBC's South Asia correspondent Azadeh Moshiri.The manufacturers of a new weight loss drug are warning women to beware of dangerous fakes being offered. The new medication is called Retatrutide. Although you can find it for sale on websites, it's not approved and is still in clinical trials. Dr Emily Pegg the UK medical director of the drug company Eli Lilley, the makers of Retatrutide and Dr Alison Cave, the chief safety officer of the Medicines and Healthcare Regulatory Authority join Anita Rani to discuss the issues.A photography exhibition starts at the Vagina Museum in London next week called Just Because We Smile, Doesn’t Mean We’re Over It. The images are of more than 100 people who have experienced miscarriage, baby loss or infertility. It is the passion project of Bex Gunn, who along with Laura Buckingham runs The Worst Girl Gang Ever Foundation. Bex and Laura join Anita to explain why they founded their charity and the community that are reflected in these photos.The fourth part of our listener series 'When My Body Surprised Me'. Saba describes the impact weight training for the first time in her 60s has had on her life. Helen Rebanks believes the unsung heroes of rural life are often the wives whose behind-the-scenes efforts keep both the family and the business afloat. Descended from generations of Cumbrian farmers, she still lives in the Lake District. Her bestselling 2023 book, The Farmer's Wife, has inspired a play by the same name, running at the Theatre By The Lake in Keswick until 10 October. Helen joins Anita along with playwright Hannah Khalil to discuss the often-overlooked role of farmers wives. Presented by: Anita Rani. Producer: Louise Corley

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. It's late 2007 and while attending a Christmas party, Facebook's Mark Zuckerberg meets a woman who would change the course of his company forever. She joined Facebook as chief of operations in 2008 and has been credited for making the company profitable. And herself enormously rich. On Good Bad Billionaire, we're exploring the life and fortune of billionaire tech leader Cheryl Sandberg. Listen on BBC.com, the BBC app or wherever you get your podcast. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the program.

Women are being offered fake weight loss drugs. We'll be discussing the dangers. To coincide with Baby Loss Awareness Week, we'll be finding out about a new photography exhibition at the Vagina Museum in London called Just Because We Smile doesn't mean we're over it. What's the impact of weight training in your 60s? We hear one woman's account.

Farmer Helen Rebanks, her 2023 book The Farmer's Wife, challenged the notion that farming is glamorous and idyllic. Well, it's now been turned into a play about three generations of farming women. As always, we want to hear from you on anything you'd like to comment on. But also, if you're listening from a farm this morning, how much have you already achieved today? How has life changed for the women around you on the farm? I'm thinking about your mothers and grandmothers and maybe your hopes and ambitions

for your daughters, maybe their own ambitions. And why don't you shatter some farmer's wives' stereotypes for us this morning? What's life really like for women on a farm in 2026? Get in touch in the usual way. You can contact us on most smart speakers by saying Alexa, ask BBC sounds to send a comment. You can text us 84844. Email us by going to the website. The WhatsApp number is 0300-100-444.

But the text number once again, 84844. But first to India, where multiple protests have been taking place in Delhi over the past week, after a string of sexual assaults and rape cases have made headlines. Hundreds of women have come together in India's capital to protest against a series of sexual assaults, most recently the alleged gang rape of a 17-year-old near Delhi University's campus. The BBC's South Asia correspondent Azade Moshiri has been speaking to women at one of the protests, who have told her they simply haven't felt safe for years. To tell us more, Azade joins me now from Delhi.

Morning, Azade, welcome. Let's start by finding out why these demonstrations are happening now. What's happening? It is because that string of sexual assault and rape cases has made national headlines and in quick succession. Now, that doesn't mean there's necessarily been an increase in cases, but it is the fact that these have been rapes, alleged rape, of minors, and also some of them have happened near the Delhi University campus. In fact,

the most high-profile one that is being talked about the most by protesters when they're marching is the alleged gang rape by three men of a 17-year-old. That happened in a park near the university, and not only that, students had been complaining of incidents of sexual harassment there for quite some time, and so there was real anger when this happened. On top of that, this is all happening at a point where India's youth has really found its voice. You may remember the cockroach protests over the summer. That was young Indians at thousands of them gathering, protesting for weeks until the education minister had resigned. And so there is this sense when you speak to young Indians that they feel that they can really bring about change. Now, this movement is

very much owned by the women of the capital. But there is this sense that a new generation of young women is now speaking out the same way previous generations have, but they feel like potentially they could make a real difference here. And you went to one of the protests. So what are these young women saying to you? What are they calling for? Some of what they're talking about and calling for is quite simple and they have been talking about it for some time. Things like better lighting in public parks, shuttles that take them to the metro. Because part of the anger here is that they feel like a lot of the initiatives, a lot of the solutions have been about them changing their behavior, them changing the way they dress, them having their access to public places restricted. For example, when that

alleged gang rape happened last week, the immediate response from the university was to turn classes online. And then on top of that, there are restrictions in accessing parks when it's dark. There are women's only carriages on the metro. There are women's only buses. And so women are saying that that's not a real answer. You need to make these spaces safer for us rather than us having our freedom restricted. And one word you'll hear them chanting over and over again is Ozodi, which in many languages, including Hindi, means freedom because that's what they're looking for. They're looking to live more freely in the capital. And you mentioned the cockroach protests that happened over the summer. They gained momentum and kind of popped up all over the

country. Is the same thing happening now? We have seen some pockets of protests happen in by. There was some also in Punjab earlier last week over the weekend that turned quite violent. There were fires that were lit and government buildings that had been damaged by protesters at lovely professional university. It's one of the largest private universities in the state of Punjab. But that had started because of rumors that had circulated on social media about a student being raped in one of the university hostels. Now, when I spoke to the police in that state, they said they hadn't found any evidence of a rape occurring yet and that students hadn't been able to provide the name of an alleged victim. The university has denied anything has happened. It's still really

unclear. But what clearly happened is that it tapped into the anger that young women and young Indians are feeling across the country, that the country itself is still not safe for women and that they're not willing to accept the status quo, that years of reforms and initiatives clearly haven't made enough of the difference. Is it just young women on these marches? You said young people? Are they being supported by men? Some of these marches have men present, but actually multiple protests, especially the ones that are organized by the women of Delhi University, are not only women-led, but they're women-only.

They don't want men to participate in these protests. And part of the reason they said is that they want to really own this, and it's about amplifying their own voices. The Cockroach Junta Party has also expressed its support. There was also a bit of criticism that they hadn't taken up the issue sooner. But what the founder Abadji Dipkeir had said really clearly is that he supported their wish to own this to have women's voices amplified and that's what they're focusing on. Now, it's been 14 years since the rape case, which was called Nerebeya, when a woman was gang raped on a bus and died from her injuries and that horrendous incident received worldwide attention. But despite reforms, talks of change, women are saying that they still don't feel safe.

what's happened in 14 years? Yeah, that was a watershed moment for India 2012 because it was such a brutal attack. And there were protests on a scale that were much larger than you'll see today. And nearby actually means fearless. It was the moniker they gave the victim because her name wasn't public at the time.

There have been many initiatives launched. There was a judicial review. There have been harsher punishments. More forms of sexual assault were criminalized. rather than just penetrative attacks, assaults. And there have been the death penalty was actually put in place for some forms of rape

after some cases of rape, particularly of minors, and when a murder follows those cases as well. But it hasn't necessarily led to a fall, a collapse in the number of reported cases of rape. And the government has launched some initiatives such as more funding for DNA processing, more patrolling from police officers, some of the public transport changes I talked about.

But the fact is that those initiatives haven't necessarily led to reported cases going down. It's worth remembering as well, there's a lot of stigma. While in 2024, that's the last year for which we have numbers, there were about 29,000 cases that had been reported. That's when they actually, that's when women actually speak out. There are conservative communities here, a conservative culture in some areas where women don't want to report what's happened to them. Families won't let them report it either. And so we still don't really understand the scale of what's happening. Yeah, give us more of an understanding of that. I mean, we know how difficult it is for women to come forward in the UK for various reasons, not being believed or whether they will even get a conviction at the end of it.

Just give us a sense of how complex it is in India and how difficult it is for a woman to report a rape. Yeah, it's not only about her wanting to speak out and then facing potentially some of the stigma and some of these conservative communities, parents may not necessarily want that to be known either. And there's all the concerns that some families have in other countries as well about what it means for a woman's marriage prospects. And again, one of the key complaints that these protesters have is that there's so much onus on them to change the way they dress. there's so much, as there is in the United States as we're seeing now and in the United Kingdom, other places, the idea that maybe victims are shamed after these incidents take place, that perhaps they could have done something differently.

So it's on a different scale here in India as well. And then on top of that, even if you manage to have the courage to talk about what has happened to you, the judicial system, some of the reviews after the nearby case were to make the judicial process easier for victims, speedier justice. There were strict timelines that were set in place, but that's not being followed because of the backlog of DNA cases processing, because of the backlog of legal cases,

the conviction rate in 2024 was under 25%. On average, it's been under 30% in the last decade. And it takes years for these cases to be completed. So even if you manage to report what's happened to you, it is a very, very big uphill battle after that. Are women being heard from the government by the government? What are they saying? The government is the one actually that pushed the death penalty after the Nobuyer case.

The judicial review actually was not in favour of the death penalty. It said it wasn't a deterrent. The government and parliament are the ones who also passed a lot of the initiatives when it comes to public transport, funding for DNA processing. But what protesters are frustrated by is that they feel like a lot of this is cosmetic and that they're not being listened to. The Supreme Court, however, this week, has launched its own public interest case

to examine what it called systemic failures in protecting women and girls in the capital Delhi. And so they want a status report of all of these initiatives that were launched after nearby. In fact, they said that what's been happening in the last few weeks has haunting parallels to what happened then. And they've also ordered interim measures to try and protect women further

that includes more policing, more policing dedicated specialist teams in every district, headed by more senior officials. And that process could take weeks. Whether it leads to any actual change, the protesters don't seem to be as confident about that. They believe that they need more immediate, quicker changes by the government. But it is an acknowledgement that there is a problem. Thank you, Azade. That's BBC South Asian correspondent Azadi Mashiri.

84844 is the text number. Now, around 62% of women are either overweight or living with obesity, according to NHS figures. Data from the charity, the Food Foundation, reels that an estimated 8.25 million people in the UK have either taken or are taking or are considering to take GLP1 weight loss medications. And women are said to constitute almost 80% of those prescribed the drugs. Now the manufacturers of a potential weight loss drug, which isn't yet on the market, are warning women to beware of dangerous fakes being offered. The new medication called Retatrutide is still in clinical trials and is being designed to be taken as a weekly injection. Unlike existing weight loss drugs, the manufacturers say that tests have shown it speeds up your metabolism as well as suppressing your appetite. Although it's not yet legal to buy and it's not yet approved, some people are finding.

it or what they think it is for sale on websites and are buying it. Well, to talk about this, I'm joined by Dr. Emily Pegg, the UK Medical Director of the Drug Company, Eli Lilly, the makers of Retruder Tide and Dr. Alison Cave, the chief safety officer of the Medicines and Healthcare Regulatory Authority, which regulates drugs in the UK and is responsible for their safety. Welcome to both of you. Emily, I'm going to come to you first. How does this drug work? Why is it different to what's already out there? What is it? Yeah, so Retitutut. tide is, first of all, is not yet a medicine, as we would consider it, because as you mentioned, it's not yet been licensed by any regulatory authority around the world. Essentially, there are

medicines on the market that act at one, a receptor one target. There are some that act at two, and this is one that acts at three, but as it is not yet a registered medicine. So what stage is it at? So it is currently in phase three trials, and we are waiting to submit it to the regulatory authorities for hopeful review and approval. So how on earth has this happened? Where people think they're buying it and it's not even out there. It's not even gone through its proper trials yet. Yes, so it is of a real concern.

Patients are essentially able to access these through online sellers who are selling counterfeit versions of the medicine. And when I say counterfeit, it may be something that chemically resembles retitutide, but in many cases it's not retitruthyte. at all. It could be something completely different or it could contain no active ingredient at all. Are they calling it retitrutide? And yes, they were calling it retitrutide. What are the side effects? What are the potential side effects? So it really depends on what is in that medicine. So that you could have side effects related to the active ingredient that is in there.

We've heard some reports in the media that are publicly available of patients thinking they were taking a weight loss medication and actually they were injecting insulin and they ended up in a diabetic coma. So you really do not know what is in these medicines and the people that are producing them are doing so without any of the safety and regulatory oversight of how they are made. How is it available? Where are people getting it? So patients are generally accessing these through online and social media platforms and these places are sometimes saying that these medicines are for research purposes only to try and get around the regulations required to sell a prescription-only medicine to the public.

Alison, I'm going to bring you in here. Tell us more about what you know and the raids that you've been carrying out. Thank you very much, yes, and thank you for having me today. As Emily said, Retiret Two Tide is an investigational weight loss product and it's currently undergoing clinical trials. And I think the key message here, as Emily has said, is it cannot be legally sold or supplied anywhere. So while criminal enforcement unit is very aware of this issue,

and we regularly take action against the illegal supply of products, not just GLP ones, but a number of products. And certainly, Retiretutide has been seized through a number of our raids recently. We've done three large-scale raids in this area in October, 2025, and also earlier this year in both February and March. So, for example, in May of this year, that was actually our largest, most recent raid, Two people were arrested and it was following a raid on a country estate where we believe they've been used to manufacture, assemble and distribute these unlicensed weight loss medicines.

And at that time, we seized about 24,000 doses together with packaging materials and suspected pharmaceutical substances. So some of these organisations are really can look quite sophisticated and some of the packaging can look quite legitimate in fact. In one of the raids, the C's Retutai products were actually labelled as a Louvye. But as Emily said, it's not authorized for use. It doesn't have a brand name and it remains in clinical trials. And this was a branding used by the illegal. and can look quite credible and quite legitimate. So it's very important that people realise that this is not a product that you can legally access.

How worried are you by what you found? Well, certainly we're very concerned. We're always concerned about the supply of illegal medicines. And the team is really working tirelessly to provide people with the guidance and the information they need to be able to access these medicines, appropriately. It's really, really important to emphasize that patients and publics do not buy these medicines from illegal or unregulated sources. All of the weight loss medicines have to be prescribed by a healthcare professional who will assess your medical condition and ensure the

indication is appropriate for you. And also will give you the advice you need about potential side effects. So that's a really key message. We started by saying it's being sold on websites. Also hairdressers? Yes. Unfortunately, hairdressers, beauty clinics, all sorts of places. What action have you taken against websites?

How easy is it to close them down? Yes, so we've actually been involved in taking down around 14,000 websites that we've reported to the people that host those sites. and that's been across about 100 countries. So we're very active. We also work very much hand in hand with agencies like the MHRA and other equivalents around the world

and law enforcement agencies to try and assist them in their duties. Alison, in some ways, is this a bit of an unstemable tide? As soon as you close a manufacturer or a distributor down, another one's going to pop up somewhere else. The challenge is exactly that. As we shut down one operation,

others will spring up using potentially different tactics. They are sophisticated, organized crime groups, and they do act internationally. And we do try and target all levels of these organisations. And as they evolve their tactics, so do we to identify, disrupt and dismantle them. But I think the key message here is for the public to remain vigilant. Obviously, if the demand is there, then these criminal, organized gangs would not target this particular activity. So the messages do not assume that a professional-looking website or a social media advertisement is legitimate. Be really suspicious

of websites, for example, that may offer you a prescription-only medicine without a prescription or without consultation with that qualified healthcare professional, because that is telling you that it is not a legitimate site. And certainly avoid sellers using social media pages, the messaging apps, direct messages, or indeed anybody asking you for bank transfers rather than a legitimate pharmacy service. Where do you think, Emily,

that this sort of counterfeit fake retitrutides on the market is coming from? Could it be your formula? So people can imitate the actual. molecule in any medicine. But in many cases, we believe that this wouldn't be retitutide. And as I mentioned, we've seen cases where in fact it's a completely different pharmaceutical ingredient completely. So there are significant risks associated with taking those. There's also a number of issues. We've seen critical issues with sterility, toxin levels. So the way that these are being made, sometimes, as Alison mentioned, in a country house somewhere,

not in a registered pharmaceutical facility means that actually they are contaminated. So not only is the actual ingredient not clear, but it could be with critical levels of sterility or toxins. Some people might think that you are actually interested in protecting your patents. I mean, we have seen the price of weight loss, drugs increase considerably. What would you say to that? So our priority as pharmaceutical company is patient safety. We aim to make medicines that help patients with chronic and often debilitating conditions and we want to ensure that patient safety is maintained at the forefront.

We are really disappointed if patients think they are taking a genuine lily product and in fact they're not and they're being put at significant risk. But as Alison said, the main thing is that we would urge patients to ensure that if they are wanting to seek help for weight loss or any other chronic condition, they do so from a registered healthcare professional who can, if it is a person, appropriate to do so, prescribe them a medicine, and also ensure that they have the appropriate follow-up and make sure that they are only going to reputable sources for their medications. Are the police and regulators doing enough to stop counterfeit?

So we think there's always more that can be done. As you mentioned, this is a real challenge. We know that from a report actually a number of years ago now, that this trade in illicit pharmaceuticals is worth up to $200 billion a year, and that is quite old data, and that it the most lucrative sector and part of that trade in illicit goods. So there is money to be made and unfortunately the people who are selling these medicines are not doing so to try and help people improve their health. They are doing so to try and make money. Is it all fakes or can some of it actually have been obtained through clinical trials? How secure is your supply chain and pipeline? So the, as you said, the only way that you can legitimately get retitutriotile at the moment is through a

clinical trial. And so it would be very small quantities relatively that would be supplied through a clinical trial. So absolutely all of these that people are accessing online are fake versions. And Alison, all weight loss medication in general, something that people should be talking to their GP about in the first place. Yes, absolutely. So the key messages do not assume the product is safe just because the packaging looks convincing or the website looks convincing. This is what we call a prescription-only product, which means it can only be prescribed by a healthcare professional. And we would advise and urge patients to seek their advice of a healthcare professional. And that is the safest route to access these medicines.

And I would also ask, if you think you've bought a suspected fake product or indeed side effects, please report it to us. We have something called the yellow card scheme, which patients can report any suspected fake product, but also side effects to us. Dr Emily Pegg and Dr Alison Cave, thank you so much for speaking to us this morning. 84844, if you'd like to comment on anything you've heard in the program so far. Please do get in touch. Now, Woman's Hour are celebrating their 80th anniversary in a special program live from Glasgow Women's Library in Scotland. The theme for the birthday year is Use Your Voice.

And Nula and guests, including Jackie Kay and Fats Timbo, will delve into the archives to reflect on eight decades of women telling their stories and sharing their lives. We'll also reveal the results of an exclusive poll that investigates women's ability to speak up for themselves. And performance poet Holly McNish has a specially commissioned poem, so don't miss that next week. Now, a new photography exhibition starts at the Vagina Museum,

in London next week called Just Because We Smile Doesn't mean we're over it. The images of more than 100 people who have experienced miscarriage, baby loss or infertility. It's timed to coincide with Baby Loss Awareness Week and is the passion project of Beck's Gunn, who runs the worst girl gang ever foundation with Laura Buckingham, Bex and Laura are here in the Woman's House studio. Welcome. Thank you. So nice to be here. Yeah.

Let's start by you explaining Beck. why you founded your organisation and the community of women that are reflected in these photos. So back in 2020, I'm really blessed to have three children at home at this point. And back in 2020, I found out I was pregnant with my fourth child. And I went to the 12-week scan alone because it was sort of mid-pandemic. And I was told during the sonography exam that I lost my baby. and I heard the words, I'm sorry, there's no heartbeat. And in that moment, you know, my world tipped on its axis, really.

And I naively and ignorantly thought that you were either someone who experienced miscarriage or you weren't. And because of my beautiful children at home, I put myself in the latter category. And I just felt so discombobulated by the whole experience. And long after the physical aspects had gone, this emotional pain stayed with me. And because no one talked about it and because, All the information I read was very clinical and resource-based. I just ended up feeling that my grief was completely disproportionate to my loss. I felt like no one really understood.

I felt very isolated. And I felt like it was my problem that I was doing something wrong. I was doing something in the wrong way. And that basically, long story short, led me to write about my experience. And I started a Facebook group which, like unbelievably, it was shared and shared and people were joining. And not just people saying, this is me now. but also women in their 50s and 60s saying this happened to me 30 years ago and I still think about the empty space at my breakfast table.

And that really got to me because I thought there is such a gap in the support that we are currently offering in terms of allowing people the platform to speak about what they desperately want to share. And that's their baby. And that's how I met Laura. Laura, how did you get together and get involved? What's this community done for you? Well, at the time of meeting Bex, I'd lost seven pregnancies prior to the birth of my son. I had another five after him.

And during all of my experiences, which spans several years, the worst part of it for me was the isolation. Yeah. That when all of the people in your life who love you the most, more than anyone in the world, can't really provide you with the support that you need. And when chatting to Bex, when I found her Facebook group, we decided. that we needed to change the way that the support looked for people. And we chatted on the phone for an hour and we ranted. And I think you probably cried, Bex. Oh, obviously. Yeah.

I'm a cryer. Can I just say, just to say, I'm so sorry to hear, like, you know, you sort of said seven and then five. And I'm also really aware that there will be people listening to this who will also be feeling something whilst we're having this conversation. So I just want to take a moment. to acknowledge that as soon as you start talking about this, there'll be a lot of women who'll be feeling in their bodies. So sorry to interrupt. And they're not alone by far.

One in four pregnancies end in loss. And when you think about those statistics, and then you think about going through this yourself, when you're going through it, you think where are all of these people? How is everyone else coping and getting on with life? And the reality is they're not. Everyone is struggling in silence.

But the silence causes the isolation. So when we got chatting, we thought, how can we break the silence? How can we smash this taboo? Open the dialogue and make this a topic that is conversational so that people don't feel so alone. And it was 2020 when we met and podcasting at the time was all the rage. So we thought we'd decide to do that. Yeah. I bought a book called Podcasting for Dummies, literally.

True story. It is a true story. And we went from there. And we thought it was just going to be our moms and our best mates that listened. And yeah, it was insane. And you say, you talk about people who've experienced miscarriage because you do include men, fathers or would be fathers. Yeah, and partners as well.

You know, the journey to parenthood is so complex and so misunderstood and so underrepresented. I can't believe I just said all those three words without stumbling. And it's just not something that's talked about enough. You know, there is so many different and unique experiences. and because there's so many paths to parenthood, there is so often that experience of infertility and loss that go alongside that.

So you started the podcast. And then how did you grow it into what it is now? It's grown very organically and it's sort of snowballed a bit. We just decided we'd set up an Instagram page and do the podcast and then people started reaching out for us and we noticed that they were telling us what they needed from support where the gaps were and we've just tried to plug those gaps

and have always done what people need. And where are those gaps? What are the things that you can talk about on your platform and in your space that are too tricky? I don't know if it's like what they are specifically or maybe how the subject is approached. I mean, as a duo, we refer to ourselves as passionate idiots. That's just that's who we are.

That's what we do. And I don't know if you're aware of the phrase, Anita, flying by the seat of your pants. Maybe. But that is what we do. And when I say it's about the way we communicate, it's we have always been, we've both quite outspoken. We've both got what we call a hefty pair of lady balls.

And we are not afraid to talk about things how they are. And that's not like the aesthetically pleasing side of things that you so often see on socials, but the real stuff that we go through as real women. And how much of, has that power come from the community and finding each other? Yeah, like finding each other, I think, because we're really similar, but we have such different experiences.

But equally, people really related to what we were sharing and how we were sharing it. And people said, they used to say, what did they say? It's like having a cup of tea with friends, isn't they? Yeah. I mean, we have come so far, I would say, even in the last of 10 years, and you are very much part of that in how we talk about baby loss and miscarriage. But how do we lift the shame and the taboo? by talking about it more openly, giving people the space to grieve as they need to,

rather than it being a two-week time limit and then you're back to normal life. What was your experience, Laura? Who did you talk to? Who did you attend to? Who did you have? So my experience started in 2012 and when you say we've come on leaps and bounds in the last 10 years, absolutely, because when I look to Instagram, it was pictures of smashed avocado on toast, was like, you know, that's what it was used for.

And now it's so much more powerful. I started speaking to my support network, my go-to people, but I was often met with phrases and things that didn't make me feel good. They didn't serve me in what I was going through. We talk a lot about the at least phrases. And, you know, it's a natural part of human behaviour to make people feel better when they're in need and when they need help. and that would be, come across in terms of like, at least you know you can get pregnant,

which is wonderful. Yes, at least I know I can get pregnant, but that doesn't help me. I want a baby. I don't just want to be pregnant. Bex, you're a photographer by trade. I am. So tell me about the exhibition. Well, I remember when I first shared about my story and I remember saying, if this is the pain of miscarriage, why is it not front page news? And for me, that really sowed a seed of thinking about linking my two worlds, the girl gang and my photography.

And the idea started to gather a bit of momentum and Laura and I chatted about it. And I came up with this idea about a sort of an exhibition that wasn't supposed to be comfortable for people to look at and think, oh my gosh, there is so much more to this experience than I ever imagined. And that for me was in, I wanted to create beautiful photographs pictures of people smiling and then show people what it's like to go through. So they're confronted by this visual, someone really happy, really smiley. And during the photo shoots themselves, like we had a real laugh. But then they send their stories.

So their stories are in their own words. And it's actually what they're going through or what they've been through. and the themes of these stories are devastating and so in some cases really, really disturbing. And it's just, I think it's so important, not, you know, transcending baby loss in a way, the bigger picture of people aren't who they present themselves to be because sometimes that makes you feel too vulnerable.

And sometimes you just want to break from the grief and you want to appear normal. But it doesn't make the experiences go away, whatever that is you're going through. And you can get miscarriage certificates now. Yes. Tell me what your thoughts about that is. Also, a two-week miscarriage leave from next April.

So things, again, are changing. They are changing. It's unpaid. So it remains very inaccessible for a lot of people who can't afford to take that time off work, which is something that we're hopefully going to talk about on the podcast in a while. But, yeah, Laura, what do you think of the baby loss certificates?

Oh, I think they're a wonderful idea. And, you know, they're not for everybody, but for those who do want that certificate of remembrance to honour their baby, they can access it on the government website, it's free, and it can be for past losses as well. It doesn't need to be something that you're going through now. So if you've been through this experience in the past,

you can get a certificate for your baby. And of course, every woman's experience is different and how they experience it and how they grief or don't. You know, there is so much variety, just as we are all so different. But let's go back to the title, the worst girl gang ever. It's not a club everyone wants to join.

Yourselves included, how do you make it bearable, even fun? Oh, we laugh a lot. I think it's like we take the Mickey out of each other all the time. We don't take life too seriously because I think it's about recognising that, you know, this is a horrifically common experience to go through. But like I said earlier, we don't cease to be women when we go through it.

We don't cease to have our passions and our hobbies and our joys and things that make a smile. And I think that is really important to keep that love and that warmth within what we do. And it's peer support, basically, we do, is it? We run support calls a few times a week that we do over Zoom and we have a lovely chat with the girls and there's tears as well as laughter.

They talk about their experiences, the things that they're struggling with at the time. But I can guarantee you, as it comes around to 9 o'clock, they will be talking about what telly they're going to be watching that evening and having a laugh about just other things going on in their life and it's about having that safe space to be able to be your true authentic self.

I think sometimes as well it's like we have what we call the ugly feelings which I'm sure for those of you who have listening that have experienced something like this it's like the feelings that come beyond grief it's the jealousy, it's the bitterness, it's the anger, it's the resentment and sometimes those feelings are harder than the grief itself to manage because you think, who am I? Yeah, where's this come from?

Yeah, and I think sometimes, Sometimes when we get together in these big groups and we actually voice the ugly feelings, we can end up laughing. You know, oh, I wanted to throw a melon at someone that really annoy me, but just because they were pregnant and I don't know her story and that's really bad. And then, oh, that's nothing. I, you know, and this sort of, it's people find it so relieving because it's like, oh, maybe I'm not that terrible person that I thought I was. And I think there is tremendous ability for recovery within those safe, like joyous. a weird way spaces. Where you're understood.

You're validated and understood. Thank you so much both of you for coming in to speak to me. Just because we smile doesn't mean we're over it is. And it's on at the Vagina Museum in London from the 7th to the 11th of October. And I have to say if you've been affected by the issues we've been discussing, you can find support and information on the BBC Action Line website. And they can find you two on your podcast as well. Thank you so much for talking about this.

Thanks, Anita. 84844. And that TV, by the way, it obviously traitors. Obviously, clearly. It's late 2007 and while attending a Christmas party, Facebook's Mark Zuckerberg meets a woman who would change the course of his company forever. She joined Facebook as chief of operations in 2008 and has been credited for making the company profitable. And herself enormously rich. On Good Bad Billionaire, we're exploring the life and fortune of billionaire tech leader Cheryl Sandberg. Listen on BBC.com, the BBC app or wherever you get your podcasts.

Now, for the fourth part of our listener series, when my body surprised me, if you've been tuning in for the past two weeks, you may have heard Gail, Yasmin and Rebecca described times their bodies did things they never thought possible. Today, Sabah tells us of the impact weight training for the first time in her 60s had on her life when she joined a gym near her home in Cambridge. I've basically been exercised phobic most of my life. and never believed my body could do things. I have been very surprised that my body is taking to weight training.

And I just thought that if I talk to people about it, maybe other people would be inspired to do it as well and not be scared of doing it. I think I was particularly surprised. Maybe the second time I went to the gym with my personal trainer and he asked me to lift what I thought were really heavy weights and I looked in it and thought, no, I can't do that. But I lifted the weight and I thought, oh my God, yes, I can do that.

That's amazing. Just because I'm older, I never thought I'd be able to. And the second bit of surprise was when I was going down the stairs after a few weeks and I suddenly realized that going down the stairs was really easy. I hadn't appreciated that going down the stairs was starting to become difficult, which apparently happens in your 60s. It's not like I've never done exercise in my life, but I grew up not exercising. I was always the last to be picked in games in school. I had a month of gym when I was in six form. I tried to go to the gym at university. It didn't really happen. And then in the last maybe 15 years or so, I've tried different things. I mean, if anybody asked me about going to the gym, I would have thought of it as being very boring, full of big mussely people who would hog the equipment. So it was just a psychological thing. I wasn't going to go to a gym. And then really what's tipped me over was the fact that my mother's diabetes resulted in her. Kidneys basically stopping functioning, and she's on dialysis as of about a year and a half ago. And so I thought, okay, I'll join the gym and a friend joined with me.

So it was around about February of the year that I was already, I was already 62. And my friend and I joined the gym, and we went and we learned how to use the equipment. And we went a few times by ourselves, and it was like, we don't know what we're doing. We're not really getting anywhere. Is this doing us any good? Luckily, about the third time we went, we bumped into another friend who'd been going to the gym and weight training with this wonderful personal trainer at our local gym, which is five minutes walk from my house.

She was so enthusiastic about it. We thought, okay, we'll try him out. So he started me on low weights. And I have to say, every time I saw him, but he'd say, now try this. I think, no, I can't do that. But because I was beginning to trust his assessment of me, I would try things. To the point that now when he tells me to do ridiculous things, like I did a lift 75 kilograms and I'm thinking, no, I can't do that, but Adam thinks I can.

I'll do it. Or I'll try it anyway. The thing I would say is, especially when you start, it's so important to start with, if you can, start with friends. because just knowing that a friend was going to the gym encouraged me to go with them or I wouldn't want to let them down if we'd agree to go together.

What I'm finding is my level of agility has really improved. So even though I'm now 64, just turned 64 in August, I have the same agility I had when I was 50. You know, as people get older, they start making a noise when they sit down in a chair or get up, they go, I don't do that anymore. It's really easy to get in it.

of everything, just feeling fitter and stronger has made it more likely for me to say yes to things. I still need rest like anybody, but it's maybe focused me more on what I need as a whole. I'm thinking a bit more about my mental health. I'm thinking about my physical health. I'm thinking about my social connections. But generally, I feel quite positive about life going forward. And I'm quite hopeful that even in my 80s and maybe if I get into 90s, I'll be more like my dad and able to do things. I mean, my dad goes out every day for a walk and does at least one kilometer, if not two. And at 97, that's pretty good. It feels like for many, many people, when they get older and they retire, it feels like their life is closing down, but I just feel like

life is opened up. Retirement has helped with that anyway, but just a sense. feeling of physical fitness and getting rid of the stresses that I had when I was working has really helped. What a brilliantly inspiring story from Suba, a listener sharing her story of how she got into weight training in her 60s. And you can listen back to the other parts of the series when my body surprised me on BBC sounds. Now, picture a farmer, and you might imagine a man on a tractor. But Helen Rebanks believes the unsung heroes of Rural Life are other wives whose behind-the-scenes efforts

keep both the farming, family and the business afloat. Descended from generations of Cumbrian farmers, Rebanks, lives and farms in the Lake District. Her best-selling 2023 book, The Farmer's Wife, described as a vinegar-sharp memoir, challenged the notion that farming is glamorous and idyllic. And that book has now inspired a play by the same name, running at the theatre by the lake in Kesek,

a market town in the Lake District, until the 10th of October. I'm delighted to say that both playwright Hannah Khalil and Helen Rebanks are with me now. Welcome. Thank you for having us. Thank you, Anita. It's great to be here. It's great to have you here.

First of all, congratulations. Oh, thank you. Thank you, Helen, for coming all the way down from the Lake District. Let's start with the book, shall we? The Farmer's Wife. You wrote it in 2023. Why? Oh, gosh.

I wrote the book because I felt that women that do the doing a family life and the caring and the cooking and they're looking after everybody and the support in the farmer were completely invisible in the modern world on social media and on TV. There was a lot of representations around of women on tractors and doing all the milking and I think that's brilliant and I have a daughter that wants to be a farmer

she wants to do all the doing outside as well but I grew up in on a farm with my mum and grandma doing a lot of that caring work and cooking and I didn't imagine I was going to become a farmer's wife. I did out at college. I went to do all sorts of different things. So what happened?

Fell in love with a farmer. And yeah, here we are. Well, it's not a job, is it? It's a life. It's a lifestyle. Very much so, a way of life. And, yeah, cooking with the seasons, growing food, understanding where our food comes from.

It's super, super important to me and helping other people understand that and celebrating the great British produce that we've got from our farms. I'm going to read out a message we've had in from a listener. It says, I'm Joe, a hill sheep farmer on the Isle of Sky. From the outside, it can look like a very romantic life. It's rewarding but can also be very difficult.

You're tied to home for much of the year and out in every weather. It can feel quite lonely. When I first read Helen's book, I felt very seen. She has wonderfully highlighted the wrong. of women on farmers, sometimes in the background, but very much the backbone. What was the reaction to your book? I've had messages like that from women across the world and it's been remarkable. I didn't imagine my story would travel as far and as wide as it has.

And yeah, it's that thing of women feeling seen and heard and that caring matters. It matters. All the little things we do for each other matter. And I'm proud to be a farmer's wife. Super proud of the role I play. Yeah. I wonder why your book, you know, your book, kind of you lifted the lid, if you like. It takes one person to go, actually, this is the reality.

Yeah. Why it's taken so long. Is it something about the kind of just getting on with it? Well, it's just so normalised. I think growing up through this 80s and 90s, my messaging from everything was girl boss, go out to work, be independent. be something else and I kind of railed against that because I saw the value in what a life on the land looks like and I missed it when I was away from it. I didn't realise I did at the time.

I was sort of following a path throughout college and things but it didn't sit right being away from the land and home and things that mattered to me. Well, your sort of creative flair has kind of, well, it came out in the book for starters and now it's been taken to the stage. So tell me how, Anna, how this collaboration came about. So I was approached by Liz Stevenson, who's the artistic director of Theatre by the Lake in Keseek, which if listeners haven't been, go. It's the most beautiful theatre in the country. And as is Kek. I mean, Kese, Lake District. Absolutely. And she gave me Helen's book, which I read with absolute relish because even though I'm not from Cumbria,

I'm half Palestinian, half Irish, and I come from farming on both sides. So two formidable grandmothers who farmed very different landscapes, obviously, than Cumbria. And I recognise the resilience and the labour in the book. And also what's so wonderful about Helen's book is it's not just relatable to people who work in farming. I think most women feel like their work at home is invisible. And so many people relate to it. I absolutely related to it. And I got very excited when I read it

and proposed to Liz and Helen that maybe what I could do was use the memoir as a sort of springboard. And we went and spoke to loads of women in farming in Cumbria. And I took their stories and wove them into a story of one family, three women one day on the farm.

We can hear a clip from the play now in which two of the characters tussle over how to manage the farm. 100 harvests left in British soil. That's what they're saying. Lecture me. I know how you think things should be done but I have my own ideas.

You have to trust me. Because it's me who's going to be here, isn't it? After. After what? Oh, you mean when I'm dead? No, I'm just saying it's not as simple as one way good, one way bad. We need a different approach.

one that combines lots of ways of doing things. Well, that's a slippery slope you're on there. You know, we need to learn that if it looks too good to be true, it probably is. Why are you so scared of innovation? I'm not scared. Our way is progressive. It was, but there are new things happening now, but you won't listen. You never listen to me. Two of the cast there, played by Christine Entwistle and Aaron Devlin.

Helen, the character spanned three generations and kind of talk about the changes for women in farming. So tell us more about that and the significance of it being set around the kitchen table. Oh, it's incredible. When you walk into the theatre, you're invited right into the heart of a farmhouse kitchen. I've been in a few of those.

Everything happens around that table. Yeah. Yeah, we celebrate the birthdays. We do the kids' homework. We do the farm paperwork. and there's a remarkable scene in the play that Hannah's written where Christine, the middle character, she's sort of drowned in paperwork,

as most of us farmers are currently. Does it fall from the scene? It actually does, yes. And what did you want to, I mean, what we obviously represent? It's very visual. Tell us more. Well, there's a line, there's a line in the memoir that about feeling like you are slowly drowning in this life.

And I magpied that from the memoir and all three characters say it at some point. And so to have an actual visual representation, our wonderful director, Liz, very cleverly thought, yes, let's literally have the farm work pouring down and that it actually is sort of proper farm documents taken from the farm table. Yeah, the farm are just so up against it with all the challenges. We're expected to produce amazing quality British.

food and cope with all the regulations, the highest welfare standards ever. And yet, try and fight for, you know, any last penny that we can get. Because farming, we're the only country now that is not subsidised for farming and food production. We're paid for some environmental works, but we've just seen with the SFI window closing very rapidly last week, it was like trying to get Oasis tickets. It was on absolute shambles. You know, that window opened for a short space of time When people are outworking on the land and with their livestock,

There is just no time at all to access any funding. We missed out on trying to get more to support the hedgerows And the rivers and the wetlands that we're creating on our farm. The paperwork is heavy, But also the diversification is heavy on a lot of farmers. We're expected to run two or three jobs alongside doing already a really challenging work. It's busy.

We're mechanics, we're looking after the animals. There's a variety of things. We've got a statement from DEFRA, the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. And a spokesperson said, we're starting a new conversation with farmers. One of the Prime Minister's first visits was meeting farmers hit by brutal drought

and dry weather, announcing a 65 million pound package to help them through these challenging, conditions, we're also providing grants to help the sector access cutting-edge technology, boosting productivity and creating a profitable future for the industry. How has life for women on farms changed as you've seen it? What was your mother's life like yours and compared to what you think your daughters might be? Women have always been at the heart of farming life.

And I think so my grandma was very, busy doing a more indoor role and that's represented in the in the play but then um through my mum's time there was challenges and women had to work more outside because there just wasn't the the financial resources for for workers anymore and so there's that split isn't there of like that tension of having to be inside and outside and never feeling like you're doing enough properly um and now women our farmers in their own right and absolutely should be, but always have been. I think that's what I'm quite surprised at when I see social media. I think, well, there's some incredible shepherdesses around in the lakes and they are formidable characters.

Hannah, what did you want people to take away from this when you're writing it? What do you want people to be left with feeling? I really wanted them to think about the possibilities of community and how we can help each other. there is a real community element to the play. I don't want to give too much away. But the communities really come together around this play. And the idea that we can often feel incredibly alone. And but actually there are people who want to help you, who care about you and who can do that. But also I think a greater respect for where food comes from. Absolutely. And also for the resilience. I mean, the thing that struck me about all the women I met was

their creativity, their brilliant minds and ability to think about difficult things in really interesting creative ways and an incredible resilience. Yeah. We've had another message and I'm going to read this. See what you think. I was brought up on a farm in the 60s and 70s. My mum cooked three hot meals a day, helped with lambing and carving, reared chickens and did all the child rearing.

There were three of us. She was always exhausted and our lives were tough. We had work clothes rather than play clothes to change. into after school. We learned a lot, but there was nothing romantic or fun about our lives, and that's from Helen. Yeah, absolutely. It's a challenging life. And then to have to go and work outside of the farm as well to bring extra money and to supplement it, it's too much. So what does the future of farming look like for women? That's a big question, Anita. I know it is. What about for your daughter? Go on what do you hope? Well, she wants to be a farmer. She definitely wants to be a farmer.

and I think she's living her best life right now at nearly 19-year-old gathering fels with her dogs working with different shepherds out on the open fels and working on big farms. I think there's so many opportunities and possibilities and we need super capable young people in farming. And like you say, we need to connect the dots but I think people often talk about the kind of rural urban divide.

But we live side by side. We absolutely do. And I think also the... other thing that I would really love people to take away from the play is the idea that we're not powerless when it comes to this. And those of us who live in cities do have a responsibility to understand where our food comes from and to buy food responsibly, buy British meat, know where it's come from and educate yourself. Sorry, Anita, I would just absolutely add to that. Whoever is doing the shopping and the cooking, thinking about that household,

budget, they have huge power in their pockets to change things. I want to thank you both for coming along to speak to us to the farmer and author Helen Rebanks and playwright Hannah Khalil and the farmer's wife is on at the theatre by the lake until the 10th of October. And women in farming is a topic we've returned to regularly in recent years. And you can listen to our programme that's special that we did on the 26th of May 2025. I just want to finish by saying, we won a podcast award for our Send Podcast. Congratulations to Nula and the team.

We won gold and go to BBC Sounds if you want to hear that as well. Join me tomorrow for weekend Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. 25 years on from the deadliest terror attack in history, why are thousands of grieving families still fighting for answers? In early 2000, two young Saudis arrived in San Diego. They'd never been to America, spoke almost no English,

and had no idea how to open a bank account or rent a flat. Within weeks, they'd done all of it. Twenty months later, they hijacked a plane and crashed it into the Pentagon. Jane McMullen investigates the hidden story of a man who helped two of the hijackers and reveals a story that the U.S. and Saudi governments have fought to keep secret. From Radio 4, this is intrigue, a 9-11 story. Listen first on BBC Sounds. It's late 2007, and while attending a Christmas party, Facebook's Mark Zuckerberg meets

a woman who would change the course of his company forever. She joined Facebook as Chief of Operations in 2008 and has been credited for making the company profitable. And herself enormously rich. On Good Bad Billionaire, we're exploring the life and fortune of billionaire tech leader Cheryl Sandberg. Listen on BBC.com, the BBC app, or wherever you get your podcasts.