Woman's Hour - Pumeza Matshikiza, Josie Lloyd, CensHERship

Episode Date: December 4, 2024

South African soprano Pumeza Matshikiza has performed at many of the leading opera houses across Europe and the United States and released her debut album Voice of Hope, combining well-known arias with traditional and popular African songs. She has won critical acclaim in the title role of Aida at the State Opera Hannover, as the Fox in Janáček’s The Cunning Little Vixen at the English National Opera and this summer performed at London’s Classical Pride. She is about to accompany Bryn Terfel on a Christmas tour around the UK and joins Nuala in the studio to sing live.CensHERship is an organisation that looks into ways in which women’s health companies are censored across both online and financial platforms. A new report from them sets out how even including a word like ‘vagina’ in the launch of a sexual health product can mean that product is blocked. Co-founder of CensHERship Clio Wood joins Nuala to discuss what needs to be done and the findings of the report, alongside Tess Cosad, CEO and co-founder of Bea Fertility, and Farah Kabir, co-founder of Hanx – both of whom have experienced censorship of their business.Author Josie Lloyd joins Nuala to discuss her new novel featuring fictional Alice Beeton, the prim and organised owner of The Good Household Management Agency and distant relative of the real-life Victorian cookery and household writer Mrs Beeton. Alice and her ancestor share a love of recipes and an eye for detail, which comes in handy when Alice becomes involved in a cosy, Christmassy crime in Miss Beeton’s Murder Agency. Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Laura Northedge

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Nuala McGovern and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. Well, a question for you this morning. Do you or have you worked with your partner? How was it or is it a glittering success? Or did you have to call it quits for the sake of your relationship?

I want to hear it all. The good, the bad and the ugly. And why we're thinking about this is that on Monday, if you're with us, we had Indian director Kiran Rao. She spoke about working successfully on her latest film with her ex-husband. Actor Sarah Lancashire was here yesterday. She has started a new production company with her husband,

working, both working, at the kitchen table. And coming up, we have author Josie Lloyd, who also collaborates with her husband. So let's hear it on Working With Your Partner. You can text the programme. The number is 84844. On social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour,

or you can email us through our website. You can also send a WhatsApp message or a voice note, and that number is 03700 100 444. Now, Josie's book, Miss Beaton's Murder Agency, very much got me in the holiday mood. And we have another guest to help with that as well. South African soprano, Pumetsa Machikiza. She will perform O Holy Night in studio.

She is a marvel, so you are in for a treat. Also this hour, we hear about the Femtech women tackling social media censorship of women's health and sexual well-being content online. All coming up. But let us begin with a development from the government about the money

given to children with special educational needs and disabilities, or SEND as it's called in England. You might remember that Women's Hour did a special programme focused on children with SEND and their families live from the radio theatre in September.

We heard from mums and young people who told us that in their view, the system was broken. Today, the government has announced funding to adapt schools for children with SEND to help pave the way, they say, for more children to thrive in mainstream schools.

There's £740 million allocated for local authorities in England to expand and update the existing provision. And I should say that the name differs depending on where you are in the UK for this aspect of education. In Scotland, the system is called ASN, Additional Support Needs. In Wales, it's ALN, Additional Learning Needs. In Northern Ireland, it's known as the SEN Register, that's the Special Educational Needs Register.

I want to begin our conversation with our education correspondent, Elaine Dunkley, who's been looking at this in detail. Good to have you back with us Elaine. So is this new money? Well this money is part of a 6.7 billion pound allocated for capital projects announced in the budget a few weeks ago and out of that money the government must fund delayed plans to rebuild schools and colleges and it must cover long overdue repairs to schools, including the cost of remediating RAC. And we heard the Chancellor talk about roofs falling in and the poor state of schools in this country. And out of that money, £740 million has been allocated

to capital investment to create more specialist places in mainstream schools. And with RAC, just to remind our listeners, that's the Reinforced Autoclaved Arated Concrete. Important why? Because there's lots of issues around that and how that concrete impacts on the building and whether the building's safe.

And so there were schools that were found to have RAC in and remediating that and dealing with RAC is very costly and that will have to come out of this big pot of £6.7 billion. So that is some of the aspects, I suppose, that they hope it will be used for. And helping children in this particular manner, how? Well, we know that there's pressure on place in special schools. And we also know that for far too many children with special educational needs and disabilities in mainstream schools, they're not getting the support they need. Now, the government says that the £740 million

capital investment is to create more specialist places in mainstream schools. The money will be given to local authorities, and the Department for Education says that they'll be encouraged to spend that money in making schools more accessible for children in wheelchairs, for example, creating specialist units for children with autism and ADHD and creating sensory rooms and quiet spaces to help those children who can't cope with noisy classrooms. When I spoke with Bridget Philipson earlier this week, the Education Secretary, about this announcement,

she says what she hears most from parents is that they want their children to be taught in their local mainstream primaries and secondaries, but those children must be properly supported. She said that the current picture is so stark for too long too many children with additional needs haven't been getting support early enough and the hope is that this will mean that children in mainstream schools will get that support. Because you were speaking to her as I understand a little bit earlier because there has been that criticism that even

though this seems like a big figure, that it's not enough. Yes, it's in terms of acknowledging that mainstream schools are struggling. You know, this has been welcomed this announcement, the 740 million sounds a lot, and it is a lot of money. But local councils currently have a 4.7 billion pound deficit. And by next year, two-fifths of local authorities could declare themselves bankrupt. And in real terms, the total capital budget is at the same level as it was 10 years ago, but with many more demands. There are 300,000 more children with special educational needs being taught in mainstream schools than there was 10 years ago. So there's going to be huge pressures within mainstream schools.

And also, when I spoke with the Education Secretary, I spoke to her about a range of things, in terms of tribunal processes and why so many parents are having to go to the local authority to try and get their children education, health and care plans, all the right schools. And she says those sorts of things need to be overhauled. And when that money's not being used in that way,

it can be used to create more space in mainstream schools. And that will also save councils money in terms of transporting, sending children to schools that are further away because there's not a school suitable in their local area. It will also help local authorities in terms of having to spend money in more costly independent schools and Bridget Philipson said that what children need is these things in mainstream schools. It's not good enough that children with special educational needs and disabilities can't access what they need

in the way other children can. And we can actually play a little bit off Bridget Philipson who you were speaking to earlier. This is thousands of additional places that we'll be creating and I do want to see more of a focus on specialist provision within mainstream. In some areas there will still be a need to create additional specialist provision for children with the most complex needs but we are backing councils with an additional 740 million pounds of capital and that runs alongside the extra billion pounds that we set out in the budget for support for children with SEND. So Bridget Philipson speaking to you a little bit earlier Elaine Dunkley thank you very much giving us some of the detail of this particular

announcement. I do want to bring in Anna Bird who's in studio with me as she's chair of the Disabled Children's Partnership you're very welcome to Woman's Hour. I'm curious you've heard a little of the detail there from Elaine. You've also heard from the government speaking directly, Bridget Philipson, your thoughts? So, I mean, we still have to see the detail of these announcements in full, but we do welcome the commitment of £740 million on capital investment in mainstream schools. That is positive. We know for sure that for many children, you know, sensory areas,

specialist units for neurodivergent children, kind of ramps and lifts are the difference between children being able to get to school and be in school and not. So it will make a big difference. We do know that this is, you know, this is positive. I think the devil's in the detail a bit about how that money is going to get to schools. But also, I think...

What's the issue there? Well, I think, you know, I was speaking to a SENCO this morning who was saying... And a SENCO is a coordinator for special educational needs within schools. Exactly, and a school who was saying that she would love to put in a capital request for funds from her local council but just

doesn't have the time because she's busy kind of you know because there's so much paperwork and it's exactly so so the question is how is this money going to flow through councils to schools and I suppose for you know more importantly for us for parents who are thinking about the support available to their children the question is how are schools going to be held account for providing adequate support in schools at the moment local schools are schools going to be held account for providing adequate support in schools? At the moment, local schools are not kind of held to account in the same way that specialist schools are for providing support. You know, I want to play a little of a gentleman who was on the Today programme this morning. This is Richard Horsfield. He's from Brehouse

High School in West Yorkshire and he talked about why it is needed. We've just recently had a quote for our lift of £250,000 because it needs structural work on the shaft as well. It's been out of order now for over a year. It's an enormous cost. The only thing we can do is access a thing called the Condition Improvement Fund,

where you put in bids to try and get support. We've been unsuccessful twice with the lift, staggeringly just last year, even though we had wheelchair users coming into the school. So we are trying to do that again with some support from the local authority. But I don't have high hopes, I'll be honest. So from Brighouse High School there in West Yorkshire, Richard Horsfield, you know, I find these things useful perhaps for the listeners, for those that perhaps have had contact with the SEND system or have not. A quarter of a million for that particular lift when we're talking about capital improvements and what we're talking about, 740 million, for example, that they are talking about adding. Yeah, so, you know, changing a classroom, adding in sensory facilities,

that kind of thing might cost £10,000. But if you need to replace a lift, that can cost significantly more. So I think, you know, how far this money goes, that's a question and kind of, you know, where the burden is. But also, you know, you can have the most beautiful school with the best physical environment if you haven't got the training for staff, if you haven't got specialist provision on hand, occupational therapists, speech and language therapists, educational psychologists available to the school. If the school don't understand the needs of the children well enough and don't have the right training,

then all of that is, you know, is still not going to deliver what families need, which is really good support to children so that they get the best education, the education that they deserve. There is the question of money and this mismatch as people talk about it. I mean, some of the estimates for the Department of Education

that the cumulative deficit will be between 4.3 billion and 4.9 billion when we come to March 2026, for example. So 740 million is a drop in the ocean in some ways. So there's definitely the financial trying to figure out how to serve those children better. What I felt really came up in our conversation in September was about the culture and how parents, children were being treated by the powers that be. Do you see that changing in any way? I mean, there's a lot of work that needs to be done. And that's why we say that training is so important. And it's training not just for teachers. Training who? Well, I was going to say it's

training not just for teachers, but it's everyone involved in the school. It has to be, you know, the admin staff, the leadership. It has to be the governors to prioritise the needs of kids with special educational needs. It has to be that when you walk into the school, parents are seen as the experts in their children's care, that those children's education is seen as valuable and important and it is measured. All of that requires a complete change in culture, I agree. I was at the event in September and it was really moving and you could feel the anger and frustration of the parents, you know, and the reality is that many parents have fought for years to get an assessment for their children, to get their,

you know, to get their needs assessed, to get a diagnosis and then to get support and then to hold on to that support. So they will be concerned that this, you know, the raft of new announcements from the government, what does it mean for them? And will they, you know, they want to see a guarantee that the rights, the protections that they have in place at the moment are going to be preserved in any new reform system. Yeah, it's interesting. And if you do want to listen back to that programme, it is on BBC Sounds the 10th of September 2024. Is there a recognition coming back to the money part of it again?

That there is just with various demands that are on government, there is a limited pot of money for what can be achieved. Like, is there even an agreement within the SEND community, and I use that very loosely, of what the hierarchical structure should be when it comes to what's needed? Because it's so disparate. The minute you wade into it, you realise that the needs can be so diverse.

Yeah, the needs are diverse. But I think what everybody wants, what brings everybody wants, what brings everybody together is that everybody just wants a decent education for their child. And I think this idea that we're sort of pitting the needs of one group against the other kind of, you know, pitting the sort of mainstream system against the specialist system is really unhelpful. All of that needs to exist. Actually, kids need all sorts of different kinds of provision. There has to be the funding available, but there ultimately has to be a system that recognises measures and values,

all children's educational outcomes. And that's what we really need to see. You know, a question that also comes up that we didn't get to address in September, but there are more children being diagnosed with SEND than ever before. How do you understand the percentage growth in need? Yeah, so actually the percentage compared to the pupil population, the percentage has stayed the same. There are more children in general. There are more children with special educational needs.

What has changed in terms of the sort of percentages is actually the number that have education, health and care plans. So that is the number of children who are not supported in the mainstream system who have had to get a plan. And the plan entitles them to? To specialist support of various kinds. There's additional money that would come with that and additional support. And many parents find now that it's difficult to get any guarantee of support

unless they get a care plan, unless they get that education, health and care plan. It's a long road. It's a huge battle. You know, many parents would wish that the support was available without that big fight. But that's the reality at the moment. You know, with a lot of the aspects we're talking about, I feel, be it the funding that is coming through in these various proposals, but the difficulty with paperwork, perhaps, to actually be able to get your hands on it and to make it a reality in the school.

The training you talk about, the EHCP, for example, it's all quite bureaucratic. I wondered if you have any thoughts on that. It's hugely bureaucratic. And what we hear from parents, you know, we run a helpline, contact the organisation I work for, we run a helpline, we speak to hundreds of parents every day. And what we hear is that it's just a battle, you know, it's an endless battle to get support. And you have to be, you have to think that these are parents who are trying to fight to get the right support in school. They're also possibly trying to get a social care needs assessment. They're trying to get the right benefits.

All of that is a huge administrative burden and the impact on families is huge so you know we hear all the time of parents who are having to give up work to kind of just manage all those processes and get the right support for their child lots of you know families breaking down because of the you know the challenge to their relationships. Anything that we can do to reduce the unnecessary burden of admin on parents, so that support is available much more easily, much more quickly, would have a huge impact on a huge number of families' lives. And I suppose the culture of it as well. Anna Bird, thanks for coming in, the chair of the Disabled Children's Partnership.

I do want to read a government statement on this issue. It says this money, speaking about the £740 million, will start to pave the way for the government's wide-ranging long-term plans for reform to help more pupils with SEND to have their needs met in mainstream schools. The commitment to reform, making tangible change to improve experiences for children and families

could not be clearer, and building a system where more children with SEND can attend mainstream schools is central to our plans. It's a story we will continue to cover. Thanks for your messages coming in about working with your partner. I employed my husband in my company. He wasn't really qualified, but he needed the work and I felt sorry for him. It was a big mistake. He wanted to be friends with my employees

and this was one of the issues that led to the breakdown of my marriage. Wayne, my wife and I are both nurses. We work in higher education teaching student nurses. We love our work and our students, but it's hard to switch off when you want to and that can create tensions. But in the main, it's a lovely thing. Not sure my wife would say the same.

Wayne's wife, get in touch, 84844. Okay, time now for some cosy crime fiction. And if you don't know what that is, no matter. Author Josie Lloyd will tell you in just a moment. Her new novel is Miss Beaton's Murder Agency. It centres on the fictional Alice Beaton, a somewhat prim owner of the Good Household Management Agency. And in this story, a distant relative of the real-life Victorian cookery and household writer, Mrs Beaton. Maybe you've heard of her. Well, Alice and her ancestor

share a love of recipes and an eye for detail, which comes in handy when a crime occurs. Josie joined me in the studio and I asked her why the real Isabella Beaton was such an inspiration. Isabella Beaton was an icon of the 20th century. She was probably the first domestic influencer or domestic goddess. She was a very modern woman. She worked with her husband Samuel and she wrote recipes and she was a French translator. And it was at a time when

women were moving out of London into the suburbs, miles away from their family, without any family support. And they were expected to run a household. They were expected to know how to, you know, order fish, get a scullery made, educate the children, deal with sickness, and also be able to cook like a three course dinner for the boss and his wife coming around at the weekend. And they were clueless. And Mrs. Beaton realised that there was this real need for people to understand how to run a household. So she started collecting recipes and she started writing in sort of magazines. And then she collated it all into a book called The Book of Household Management.

And it became this massive bestseller. Doyle, who actually the Beatons published, who published Sherlock Holmes, described it as having more wisdom per square inch than any book ever written by a man. So this book, this enormous tome filled with recipes and advice, all sorts of things in there, became the bestseller of the 20th century. And all of our grandmothers had it and my grandmother had it and then my mother had it. And I can remember it from being a small child. And when I found my mother's copy of it sort of stuffed with bits of newspaper, like newspaper recipes and stuff, I really thought I started to think more about Mrs. Beaton. And in my mind, I'd always thought that she was kind of this byword for kind of order and orderliness. I thought she was this like Victorian matronly

kind of woman. But the truth was quite different. I mean, she was a young woman. She was commuting to work with her husband. And sadly, she was only 28 when she died. I read that as I was reading about your book, which shocked me. I always thought of her when I used to hear about Mrs. Beedon's like this older woman who, you know, was running a household with an iron fist. But let's now go to your Alice Beaton. Yeah. Tell us why you decided

to make that connection and where Alice comes into the story. Well, I mean, crime is a broad church, isn't it? And I would say that this is the tea and cakes in the church hall end of the broad church. You know, I'm quite squeamish, to be honest. You know, in a fight or flight situation,

I'm out the door. I am not the girl that is going to open the door, the creaky door down to a basement and go down and have a look. I'm just not. But I quite like the idea of writing somebody quite intrepid. But I also like the idea of somebody

who, like me, is quite clueless about crime. So she's read a lot of crime novels and she's read all the Agatha Christie's and she's named her dog Agatha. And this is Alice, your protagonist. My protagonist. Alice Beaton, who's a distant relative. Fictionally distant relative. I've used artistic license and I really hope I haven't offended anyone. But I wanted to bring that,

that sense of orderliness and neatness. And she runs the Good Household Management Agency. So she places staff in posh households and country piles. And she's got a real kind of sense of how, you know, to get the cut of someone's jib, as she says. She knows. And she's just got an eye for detail. And she knows about human nature. So she uses that knowledge to kind of inform her sleuthing powers. What do you think makes crime cosy? I think the lack of police, for starters. I mean, you quickly become involved in police procedural. That's not there.

Well, it sort of is, but that's on a side tangent. This is people trying to work out in an amateur way what on earth has gone wrong because they've been shut out of the police investigation or the police investigation is not doing very well. So it's very much an amateur take on things. And that's what I really loved about the Household Management Agency, because obviously as an author, I'm quite nosy. And I love that whole thing, especially at Christmas time,

especially in somewhere like London. And you go around and you see all these beautiful houses and the trees and the lights. And you're like, oh, what's going on behind that closed door? Is it this gorgeous, amazing, Instagram worthy, beautiful household

that's full of harmony and joy and children singing and, you know, wonderful parties? Or is it something else? And I like the fact that as staff, people can get into a household and have an enormous amount of insight into somebody's life, but they're also quite invisible. So when Alice goes in undercover,

not to give too many spoilers away, but when she goes in undercover, she's invisible. So it's and she gets a real taste of what it's like on the other side. So it is she has like an access to all all people. So she's got the client side, but she's also got loads of staff. So she's got an old fashioned Rolodex. It's full of nannies and chauffeurs and gardeners and mixologists. She knows everyone.

So she's quite fun. And you talk about the invisibility. We've been talking a lot this week about women of a certain age due to comments that were made by the TV presenter, Greg Wallace, on an Instagram post, then apologised for those comments. She's also invisible sometimes to her family, in society, because she hasn't taken the traditional route of married children mother etc yes and she feels that and also behind the scene she's kind of supporting her brother because she's kind of

solvent and she's kind of the older sister so she's kind of fixing things and it annoys her this kind of sense that she has not got her place in society that people would want. But she's got her staff, her dog, the people around her who very much form her family. And over the course of the novel, she goes from sort of being quite lonely in her basement flat to having this wonderful sense of her family. And actually that she's created her own family of friends. And she also has a bit of a makeover during the course of the novel, which is really fun. So she kind of gets to be in disguise as a glamorous woman in Annabelle's at one point in a designer sparkly dress. And she just feels like complete fish out of water. But

that's really fun. There are recipes throughout the book as well. Isabella Beaton's and other people's. Why did you use that device? Well, I've got loads of cookbooks and I can't throw out cookbooks, but I rarely use all of them. I just like having them there. But actually some of the recipes that I've used the most

have been from novels. I remember reading Nora Ephron's Heartburn many, many years ago. And she had a recipe in it from Rome that she'd collected, which was tomatoes soaked in oil and garlic and then mixed with pasta. And I made it years ago and it's

become sort of like a family holiday pasta staple. Can we have Nora's pasta? So I kind of... She would love that. Yeah. So I really wanted to include some recipes and I kind of thought it would be quite it sort of lent itself the narrative to be able to put in recipes. So I really wanted to include some recipes and I kind of thought it would be quite, it sort of lent itself, the narrative, to be able to put in recipes. So I've put in lemon biscuits

and Mrs. Beaton's original kind of Christmas cake. But I've also put in recipes that Alice herself has put into her copy of the Book of Household Management. So things that she's made over the years. So it's got, and I wanted to make it Christmassy, so it's got things that I love like tiramisu and... Tiffin. Tiffin.

Everybody can make tiffin. I'm a terrible baker. When I was reading the recipe last night, I was like, I could even make that. I could even make that. I'm a rubbish baker. I'm a good cook, but I'm a rubbish baker. But Mrs. Beaton herself, what was so fascinating about her is that she was the first person who kind of really collected recipes and laid them out in a way that people could understand.

So she laid out the ingredients first and then a mode and method. And then she put whether it was seasonable and the cost of the recipes. So she did lots of things that we kind of now take for granted. But she did things like cook a big roast on a Sunday and repurpose it throughout the week. A lot of the advice in her book is stuff that is still, we're being sold today as kind of new. Like she'd say, get up an hour earlier and take a cold bath. Yeah. So she, all of this stuff was stuff that she knew.

She was part of the 5am club before we even knew. With the recipes in the book, though, I was just thinking, I do love a recipe in a book. I love that. I think it adds to it. It brings us there. It was reminding me of, like, Water for Chocolate. It was reminding me of

Isabel Allende's Aphrodite. You know, just all coming back in mind. I loved it. I was cuddled up with the Christmas tree in front of me with the lights on, a nice cup of tea and reading your book.

So highly recommend Some Cozy Crime. But I do want to also talk about your second novel. Let's think back 20 books come together that changed your life. For those that aren't familiar

with that story, can you tell them? Yes. Well, I had written my first novel when I was 25 about a girl working in a sales promotion agency with a disastrous love life because I was 25 working in a sales promotion agency with a disastrous love life,

because I was 25 working in a sales promotion agency with a disastrous love life. And I met my agent, Emlyn Rees, was her assistant. We became sort of confidants and friends. And we were both in our 20s and both writing our second novel and working full time. So we didn't really know anybody else that was in the same sort of boat. And we used to go out drinking and laughing about our various love lives we were kind of confidants

we weren't really you know there was we were just colleagues and confidants um and one night he said well this is really funny we should write this down and the next morning he rang me and I was mortally hungover and he said do you remember what we were talking about last night and I went oh oh god what did I say he said about right writing a novel together so I said yes yes why not let's do it so he went to Wales with all of his friends and he wrote a chapter of a novel from a boy's point of view called Jack and then he left it at a cliffhanger where he taps this girl on the shoulder and I wrote a chapter in response called Amy and when we put the two chapters together we realized that we had comedy gold and we gave them to the agents of course

embarrassing for Emlyn because he was actually in the office and the agents loved them and then sold the book on two chapters so overnight we were suddenly writing partners and signed up for two novels with Random House and we were right we had no idea we had no plan we had didn't have a plot for the book we just had these two chapters so we had no idea we had no plan we had didn't have a plot for the book we just had these two chapters so we subsequently spent a lot of time together we were writing a very warts and all 20 something book about a couple that jump into bed together and deal with the fallout whilst we were having the most Victorian relationship of letters you can imagine you know because he was absolutely you can't go anywhere near emlyn because he is

your writing partner he is absolutely hands-off which of course is a a terrible thing when you kind of start falling in love with somebody and realize oh no but i can't they are absolutely taboo number one taboo and eventually we got to the end of the book and i said to him are we gonna discuss this and he said what and i said this. And he went, absolutely not. I was like, oh, that went really badly wrong. And he left this restaurant and he came in a minute later and he went, there's 10 really good reasons why we can't get together. So I stood up and kissed him and that was that.

And 25 years later, we wrote seven novels together. We've written six parodies together. We've just had our 25th wedding anniversary. And we've just done another book deal which is very exciting to write a novel together So you're going to do the same sort of thing again? Yes, we've just done a deal for a book called You and Me and You and Me and You and Me

which will be out the year after next which is a multiverse rom-com about a 50-something couple So it's taken us 25 In both your voices Yeah, so we've done his, her chapters again So it's really fun Oh, you'll come back for that? Yeah, we'll come back for that for sure

That was Josie Lloyd on her incredible real life love story and her new book, Miss Beaton's Murder Agency. Love her storytelling in all its forms. Right. So Josie and also Sarah Lancashire and also Ciarán Rowe was making me think about working with partners, current or ex-partners. Here's a few you've been getting in touch. 84844. Sarah. My husband and I own and run a successful motorcycle business. 15 years. The workshop and the MOT side is his domain.

I manage the finances, books and all the boring legal and legislative side. The partnership works very well, especially as we met 40 years ago through our love of motorcycles. What about that? Here's another one. I worked with my husband for 38 years. We were tenant farmers. We retired two years ago. My life is much better as I haven't got this bad-tempered bully

shouting at me anymore. Keep them coming. 8-4, 8-4-4 if you want to get in touch about working with your partners. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. Sex, vaginas, orgasms. These are just some of the words that my next guests say are causing

headaches when they try to market their products to women. The organisation Censorship is a UK-based campaign to end the censorship of women's health content online. And their new report has found that despite growing demand for female health solutions like helping women to conceive or get through the menopause, some companies creating these products are experiencing what has been called entrenched prejudice. So for the next few minutes, we're delving into the world of femtech or female technology for products, services, software, and also diagnostics that focus on women's health. I have a number of guests here with me. My first is Cleo Wood, who's a women's health advocate and co-founder of Censorship. Welcome. Hi, nice to be here. Well, nice to be back, I suppose, because some of our listeners may remember

you were with us in September about the first half of this report, which looked at the damaging impact of women in the sex work industry being debanked, so barred from opening a bank account, for example, despite their work being legal. What's this second part all about? So the full report and data that we

released recently takes into account the experiences of femtech companies and companies operating within the women's health space as well. So what we have found with our research is that it isn't just people in the adult entertainment industry and sex workers who are having issues, it's actually much more mainstream businesses as well. So we surveyed over 30 organisations, of those 100% of them are having issues with financial services. So being refused bank accounts, for example, being refused insurance, being kicked off e-commerce and payment platforms. So that, in addition to our initial research, which we completed at the beginning of the year on social media, means that this is affecting the whole life cycle of these businesses. And the question will be why?

It's a very good question and one that we are hoping to answer. From what we have experienced in terms of the experiences that we've gathered and the examples that we've gathered it does seem to be that it's an intrinsic problem with the gender data gap and the gender health gap because a lot of the algorithms and the AI that power these platforms whether that be social media or financial services are built on inherently biased data. So essentially male data rather than taking into account female data. So let's be specific. Give me an example. So we, for example, on social media, you might not be allowed to say the word vagina without your content being restricted or being censored or deleted entirely.

We'll be talking about ad campaigns where female health brands and femtech companies won't be allowed to talk about their products specifically if they are mentioning vulvas, if they're mentioning cervical cancer, for example. You know, we've had charities talk to us about their breast cancer campaigns that have been restricted because they feature a female nipple and reinstated when they feature a male nipple instead. OK, so that begins to give us an idea. And we do have also to get into some of what the companies say about that as well. But you have another two women that are sitting beside you here in the Women's Hour studio that have businesses. We have Tess Kosat, CEO and founder of Bea Fertility.

Welcome. And also Farah Kabir, who is the co-founder of Hanks, which provides products for sexual wellness. For example, lubricants, although many, many more things, as I was looking through your website this morning. Tess, let me start with you. So your company, Bea Fertility, it's a relatively new company. You make and sell applicators for semen for women to more easily access their cervix, for example, when they want to get pregnant. What was your experience trying to launch that product online? So we tried to launch the Bayer treatment onto Amazon and very quickly received a notification that the content we tried to put on the page

had been rejected, the reason being they violated Amazon's community guidelines. And what we were told was the words vagina and vaginal are in violation of community guidelines. So one of the first things I thought was, well, there have got to be other product categories on Amazon that are using these words. I thought, well, the most obvious product category to look at might, for example, be for things in women's sexual health. But also the place I went to look was male sex toys. We all know that the shape and form that these take, and so how are they describing themselves? And sure enough, when you look for that product category on Amazon,

there are hundreds of products listed with the word vagina in all caps in the product title. And so what seemed really odd to me was we are here marketing a fertility treatment designed to help people conceive that goes into a vagina and we are not allowed to use that word. And yet the same restriction doesn't apply uniformly across product categories on the platform. Now, on the applicator page on Amazon, the word vaginal is there, but not vagina. Not vagina. It's pretty close, but not close enough. It's pretty close. And if you go down the page into the richer content, that's where the word vaginal and vaginal has been banned entirely. So for example, one of our contraindications is if you have vaginal lesions, you are not allowed to use the product. It's not safe. And yet, because we were banned

from using the word vaginal further down the content blocks in the page, we've had to change that language to female reproductive tract, lesions in the page, we've had to change that language to female reproductive tract, lesions in the female reproductive tract, which of course introduces confusion at a point in time when you really don't want to be. Yes, what is female reproductive tract? Yeah, I'm not sure I would know immediately what that is, even as the presenter of Women's Hour. Now, we approached Amazon for comment. And while they didn't want to supply a statement, we do understand from them that the word vagina is not censored on their platform. It's interesting.

We have an email and within writing from them saying the word vagina and vaginal violates our community guidelines. How does this impact on your business? So we've had to go and change all of that content further down the page. And get creative? Yeah, well, really creative, which is tough because you're also not allowed the word vulva. So it's probably worth noting we switched out the word sperm, but you are allowed semen. Semen is fine. But if you are looking to switch out vagina, there's nothing else available to you.

So we've had to get creative and use words like birth canal, which is deeply insensitive when you're marketing something to people who are desperately trying to get pregnant. You just don't want to be using that language. Or, for example, we've just had to get really vague about where the product goes. I'm wondering, do they use the word vulva for male sex toys? I didn't see it. I personally saw vagina everywhere. That would be great. Let me turn to Farah, who is sitting beside you. So yours is a website selling many products across the board, condoms, contraception and many things in between. You have had issues when it comes to censorship, as you see it, of online adverts.

Tell me about that. Yeah, so we've been going for around seven years and since day one, we've had so many of our adverts banned on platforms such as Meta. In the early days, nine out of 10 of our adverts would get banned. And how would you find out about that?

Would it be an email or? Yeah, we would have an email and also within the back end of the account, it would say banned or not listed. Okay. And then we would go to appeal and the policies are very vague. But essentially the difficulty

with us being such a small brand in the early days is we are resource strapped. So as a small lean team, we're having to guess and amend and pivot on creative and see again and seeing what sticks and you know over the years we have you know built methods around that we can get around the algorithms but actually when you look at the policies of metaphor example they allow you to advertise products that support erectile dysfunction that is listed within their policies. But for example, libido, even terms around menopause are not included within

the policies. So it makes it even harder for us to advertise our products that are supporting women's health. And to be honest, you know, when we looked at the data, recently over 34% of our ads on our account have been banned over time, which has a huge impact on a small business. It's so interesting. We approached Meta, I should say, also, which owns Facebook and Instagram, and they chose not to provide a statement. But, you know, we often talk on this programme about sexually explicit material or something that is inappropriate being accessed by younger people. And I suppose this, in a way, could be a pat on the back to social media giants that are often massively criticised for not being proactive enough about blocking, banning, taking down things that are inappropriate. And maybe they, you know, that parents don't want their children to access some of the stuff that you may have,

I don't know, on whomever's site it may be, considering it not correct for their age. Your response? Who'd like to take that one? Cleo wants to jump in. Go ahead. I'm very excited to jump in. I agree with you. I think it's a very fine line. I am a mom. I have two girls. So it's something that is particularly interesting and important for me to consider as well. that we're talking about is essentially when we are censoring talking openly about women's health and women's body parts you are taking away the autonomy of 50 of the population to talk about their own health and their bodies properly and that leads to self-censorship it leads to not understanding our health care and our health systems. It leads to not understanding our healthcare and our health systems properly. It leads to not understanding how our bodies work. And it leads to shame. And these are two entirely separate conversations. And I believe that the platforms that we're talking about

are very capable of making the changes to their algorithms that need to be made in order to differentiate between these two types of content. but they are not prioritizing that work and for us at censorship I think the conversation needs to be had around actually doing that work internally and making the changes that we need to see in order to reflect the changing landscape in terms of how we view women's health and essentially the women's health gap, which is what Farah and Tess are trying to change. Tess? I think what you learn when you look on Amazon is use of the word vagina is perfectly acceptable

when applied to sexualizing women for the purpose of sort of describing male sex toys. But the minute you're trying to use that for the purpose of describing, for example, where a medical device might go to help you conceive, it gets banned. So I think the use of these systems to limit content that could be harmful is brilliant, but it's currently being misapplied. And in that misapplication, what we find is we're censoring the word vagina in a context in which we should be using the word vagina. And we're allowing it in a context where perhaps we might not or should not be using it. And I think that really is where the problem is. And indeed, Amazon would refuse to claim that vagina is censored.

But you are talking about your experience that you have had specifically. Farah, you've been in this space for quite a while now, seven years. Do you think it's improved? I mean, technology has moved so fast and also just the proliferation of sites, apps, social media. What direction is it going in? I don't think there has been enough change. I think a lot more people are talking about it and that's great,

but we need action. We need people in decision-making roles to be allies, to actually advocate for women's health. Ultimately, if we can't be offering these services and educating women, then they can't take ownership of their bodies and it feeds into the societal stigma. And that's what we want to change here. We want to smash taboos. So I do think we need change in policies whether that's without guidelines or otherwise I have a completely different question for all three of you and if you work with your partners have done don't anymore well we'll leave it at that unless you want to elaborate Cleo it's up to you uh let's just say we nearly got divorced and but we're still together okay right that was one That was one of my questions for people, you know, whether you had to call it quits for the sake of the relationship. That would be, Cleo Wood has done that. She also has a report out with censorship that you can find it online. And I probably should just spell this for people. So when they find it, it's C-E-N-S-H-E-R-S-H-I-P.

And you'll find part of her report. And we have also been speaking to Farah Kabir, the co-founder of Hanks and Tess Kosat, CEO and founder of Bay of Fertility. Thanks to all of you for coming in. Thank you. Thank you.

Now, I want to read some of your comments. I have lived, worked and played with my husband almost since we met in August 74. We met immediately after university, went on a training course for our first job. Then in 1986 we started a successful recruitment business

which we ran for over 30 years until we retired. In this time we learned to ski, climbed mountains, enjoyed adventurous cycling holidays and trained together for triathlons including Ironman. We don't have children as our life has been full enough and we're still the best of friends. That's lovely. Steve. My wife and I work at the local primary school running the breakfast club it's largely

harmonious i'm the entertainment she's the chef defined roles are key a little bit of advice from steve in derbyshire there 84844 if you would like to get in touch. Now, I want to turn to the South African soprano, Pumetsa Machikisa. She's performed at many of the leading opera houses across Europe and the United States and released her debut album, Voice of Hope, combining well-known arias with traditional and popular African songs.

She's won critical acclaim in the road of Ada at the State Opera Hanover and also as the Fox in Janicek's The Cunning Little Vixen at the English National Opera and this summer performed at London's Classical Pride. She's about to accompany Sabrine Turfill on a Christmas tour around the UK but before all that she joins me in studio. You're so welcome. Thank you.

Thank you for having me. You're going to perform for us first and then we will have the chat. We've been kind of getting a bit in the Christmassy mood with a book a little bit earlier. Tell us what you're going to perform for us. I'm going to perform O Holy Night. Go for it, Pumetza. How wonderful, Pumetza Machikizaisa accompanied on the piano by Chad Vinden. Come on over to me, Pimezza, and take a seat. I mean, it just transports people to hear you. You know, I came across and I heard you about 10 years ago when I first came to London.

Ah, I know. And it was a chance you were giving a performance in London, in central London. And I actually came across a photograph the other night of that particular night. So I'm so delighted to have you back. I remember being almost moved to tears. And it was the first time I had heard opera, obviously that close that particular night, 10 years ago. And I feel such a privilege to hear it again today. So you're so welcome to Woman's Hour. I'm wondering when did you hear opera for the first time? I first heard opera for the first time.

I was a teenager. I think I was about 14 or 15 years old and it was on the radio. But I was already singing in choirs by then. So the sound was not necessarily like how we already singing in choirs by then. So the sound was not necessarily like how we were singing in choirs, but it was something not too far from it, but more sophisticated, I thought. And so there was that connection because you grew up Seventh Day Adventist. Yes, yes. I grew up in church. That's where I used to sing. I used to be in a choir church. I used to be in a community church and a school church. And you were born in the Eastern Cape in South Africa. What was it like

growing up? I was born in the Eastern Cape, but I grew up in Cape Town. So when my parents separated, I think I was about three or four years old, my mother moved to Cape Town to join her mother who was working in Cape Town. And so you grew up there and went to university there? I went to university there. I went to the University of Cape Town. I studied music there and then I did my postgrad here in London. In London. So you're coming home in a way. Yes, London feels more like home. Does it? But you've been very open talking about your sexuality as well.

Yes. And I think coming particularly from South Africa, there can be a conservative society at times. I don't know what it was like when you were growing up. Well, at this moment, things have changed. I mean, we have a very progressive constitution. Same-sex marriage is allowed. But sometimes the law and the people's sentiments don't go together. Things are much better, although I've been noticing on Facebook especially that there is a lot of queer phobia coming out again. I mean, there was a time lesbians were really brutally killed and people were trying to correct them. And it took a lot of grassroots work with grassroots NGOs, LGBT NGOs, and that was mostly eradicated. Did you have a difficult path or was it, I don't know,

was it easier within the world of music or not? You never know, you know, you never really know. But personally, with my family, it wasn't difficult. Of course, my mother is still a Seventh-day Adventist and she thought it was an attack from the devil and it will um it will pass but it hasn't passed but she she's now fine with it I mean really I'm very lucky with my family I'm glad to hear it um you travel all over the world as an opera singer and I remember the first time I saw you 10 years ago I was like my goodness she's so glamorous is it as glamorous as it looks well no are you going to burst that bubble the only time opera is glamorous is when you are wearing your beautiful gowns um on stage

I mean it's more like being a sport person. You know, you're using your body. Like an athlete. Like an athlete. And you can get out of shape and be in shape again. And the voice is something very fragile. I mean, you know, when you are going through, let's say you are breaking up or someone passed away or you just feel depressed. Yes.

It all comes into your voice. Really? Yes. Isn't comes into your voice. Really? Yes. Isn't that fascinating? It is like that, you know, especially us women. We also have periods every month. So, for example, two days before I have my period, the vocal cords, they just get swollen.

And the way you sing feels totally different inside your body. So there's also that. And some women have gone through menopause and, you know, that also has changed their singing as well. So there's a lot of things, sleeping, stress. So everything immediately comes to your voice because it's not like playing the piano the piano where i mean you still need your emotions and everything but you can sort of uh you know collect yourself and say okay i'm just gonna play play the piece but when it comes to your voice it's just uh it's it's you and everything that comes with that and we do know that about being a woman, that we go through so many phases, sometimes in a day, but definitely in a month. You sang A Holy Night for us.

You do have upcoming Christmas shows with Sabrina Turfel. What can people expect? People can expect all the very well-known Christmas carols and we'll do some duets and medleys and a little bit of opera as well. A little bit of opera. And you will have the State Opera of Hanover, Tosca, coming up? Yes, that's what I'm working on at the moment. So what do you need to do for that? How do you get ready for something like that?

Well, if I'm going to sing an opera, I first read the story and try to understand whether it's based on a true story or it's fiction. And then I translate the opera. I read the libretto, translate the opera, first sit by myself on the piano. I'm not a pianist, by the way. And then I take it to a coach who I will learn the role with, singing teacher and coaching. That's what I will do. Yeah. So when is that? We open on the 23rd of February.

Okay. And it's going to be the first time I sing Tosca. It's not exactly a walk in the park, but it's a beautiful challenge, I must say. I'm looking very much forward to it. With operatic roles for women, what would you like to see more of? With operatic roles for women? Yeah. Is there anything in particular that you feel you'd like to see in the opera world that you're not seeing? Well, I would like to see more new operas. I know a lot of people feel that new operas are not exactly musical, but I think we need to move away from that, you know, and try new things.

For example, I discovered Jake Heggie when I was asked to sing for the Classical Pride. Amazing, amazing composer, you know, so we need new works. And start some new adventures in opera. Well, thank you so much for coming in to us. I do want to let people know, because you've just heard that little taster, you might want more, I think you probably will. Pumetza Machikiza will be on tour with Sabrine Turfel from the 16th

to the 20th of December and then in Hanover in February if somebody fancies that I do want to let people know that tomorrow Anita will be joined by the brilliant artist

Chila Kumari Singh Burman known for her giant neon installations glitter and sparkles she'll be reflecting on 40 years of creations that represent

her Asian identity as well as her working class Liverpudlian childhood and daytime raving with Annie Mack she'll be reflecting on 40 years of creations that represent her Asian identity, as well as her working class liver, puddling childhood and daytime raving with Annie Mack. You can't miss it. Join Anita tomorrow, 10 a.m. for the next edition of Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hi, I'm Ronald Young Jr. And I'm here to introduce myself to all of you who love listening to podcasts in the UK. Welcome to my world on the other side of the pond.

I'm the host of Pop Culture Debate Club, the show that debates the important issues of our time. Is West Wing better than Veep? Does an iPhone beat an Android? Such questions we battle over on Pop Culture Debate Club with comedians and pop culture commentators. We'd love to welcome you all too. It's a competition, but a really fun one. You can find us on BBC Sounds and any other podcast provider. You'd be so welcome to join us. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year,

I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.